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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: pcpoet on July 19, 2022, 08:35:39 AM
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I was thinking about the original reasons for arranged marriage and the reasons for annulments and divorces. the main reason for arranged marriages was the combing of two groups after the production of an heir. history is full of stories about what happens when there is no heir produced. So, my question is will there be a child produced by the nuptials or will the marriage be a barren one with either an annulment because the contract was not upheld by either party when a child is not produced.
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I was thinking about the original reasons for arranged marriage and the reasons for annulments and divorces. the main reason for arranged marriages was the combing of two groups after the production of an heir. history is full of stories about what happens when there is no heir produced. So, my question is will there be a child produced by the nuptials or will the marriage be a barren one with either an annulment because the contract was not upheld by either party when a child is not produced.
Yes, that is often the reason, but in this case I hope not, or rather Harry already has more children than he can handle.. Even if Lara insisted which I'm sure she would a child would be hers to do with what she will..
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Yes, that is often the reason, but in this case I hope not, or rather Harry already has more children than he can handle.. Even if Lara insisted which I'm sure she would a child would be hers to do with what she will..
The Faeries do like their Firstborns……. I am sure Harry could put that doubt in Lara’s mind about immediate procreation.
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The Faeries do like their Firstborns……. I am sure Harry could put that doubt in Lara’s mind about immediate procreation.
I really don't care about that, all I'm saying is Harry as daddy really hasn't added that much to the story. There are plenty of other threads that have been left dangling, we don't need any new ones.
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Given the life expectancies of all the involved and concerned parties, producing an heir seems to be a matter that won't be an urgent concern for the first few decades. Indeed, keeping the alliance strong so that there is a relatively safe time for procreation would seem to be the limiting factor.
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I'm not convinced that White Court females can reproduce. We have only one very ambiguous example of Vittorio and Cheserina Malvora. Cheserina is described as an Aunt and Mother in just a hand full of pages.
We know that Madrigal and Madeline are the children of Lord Raith's brother, who had a very unfortunate parachute-less sky diving accident.
I think we know "the Skavis" was the son of Lord Skavis.
We know that the White Court girl in the Big Foot novellas was the daughter of that minor White Court Lord.
Again, we have many, many examples of children of male White Court Vampires, and only very questionable example of a White Court Mother.
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I really don't care about that, all I'm saying is Harry as daddy really hasn't added that much to the story. There are plenty of other threads that have been left dangling, we don't need any new ones.
Just saying that Harry could get Lara to believe that Mab might have a claim on the child.
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Just saying that Harry could get Lara to believe that Mab might have a claim on the child.
Lara is too smart to fall for that. If anything, Mab would have an obligation towards the child's protection and upbringing. At least in abscence of his parents.
Yes, that is often the reason, but in this case I hope not, or rather Harry already has more children than he can handle.. Even if Lara insisted which I'm sure she would a child would be hers to do with what she will..
I really don't care about that, all I'm saying is Harry as daddy really hasn't added that much to the story. There are plenty of other threads that have been left dangling, we don't need any new ones.
I agree completely. This will be a complication that will take quite a few chapters out of every future book for years. That doesn't mean that I don't want to see the marriage go through, because I do. I think they're pretty well matched.
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I'm not convinced that White Court females can reproduce. We have only one very ambiguous example of Vittorio and Cheserina Malvora. Cheserina is described as an Aunt and Mother in just a hand full of pages.
We know that Madrigal and Madeline are the children of Lord Raith's brother, who had a very unfortunate parachute-less sky diving accident.
I think we know "the Skavis" was the son of Lord Skavis.
We know that the White Court girl in the Big Foot novellas was the daughter of that minor White Court Lord.
Again, we have many, many examples of children of male White Court Vampires, and only very questionable example of a White Court Mother.
It's mentioned that the White Court are 'all but sterile'. Meaning they CAN have children, but it's very, very, VERY unlikely.
Though this brings up two questions:
1. Is it more likely between 2 White Court? After all; Daddy Raith has had many children.
2. Justine's baby:
It will feed on her Nemesis-possessed body. Which COULD kill her. I wonder if that will lead to Nemesis being weakened in Justine? Or maybe the babay will fed on Nemesis itself?
After all; nothing so far hints that Nemesis gives it's puppets any sort of power...Maybe Thomas Jr. is setting up to be a (to use the trope name) Chekov's Gun?
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I'd think White to White conception is even harder. Let us assume the sterility problem is either number of gametes (sperm, egg) produced or their viability. Humans generally drop one or two eggs. If Lara does not drop one, no matter how fertile her partner is, she does not get pregnant. Males may eject 50,100 MILLION sperm. If Whamps are putting out 10 K - that will cause infertility. Just ONE sperm will do it. Guess they strike out a lot though.
Let us assume the problem exists for both sexes - Thomas seemed surprised he got Justine pregnant (if HE did.. Nemesis, you know), so assume at least low male count. So if Lara is NEARLY barren, she will want to maximize the sperm available when she DOES drop an egg - get a human (assume wizards count here). Thomas would want a woman he can assume DOES drop an egg - get a human. If wizards are the same as human, a wizard might be ideal - with their longer lifespans, they likely have a longer period of fertility than vanilla humans. Don't have so swap out partners as much . (you CAN, but you do not HAVE to)
(Oh, and for the ultra woke, the above also explains why when birth control was developed they went after the one egg, rather than having to kill every sperm. Just an easier target. Add on, killing testosterone tends to kill desire... he just don't WANNA. Kinda like Vonnegut's Ethical Birth Control. If it's numb, no fun.)
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I suspect Lara has invested in numerous IVF clinics, and has been having her eggs and her sisters harvested on a regular basis and checked for viability. She asked both Marcone and Harry to father a child for her suggesting a degree of certainty beyond normal conception She presumably has viable eggs on ice. House Raith is led by female Whamps putting it at a disadvantage against the other houses, and leaving is vulnerable to take over by secondary lines like the cousins.
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I suspect Lara has invested in numerous IVF clinics, and has been having her eggs and her sisters harvested on a regular basis and checked for viability. She asked both Marcone and Harry to father a child for her suggesting a degree of certainty beyond normal conception She presumably has viable eggs on ice. House Raith is led by female Whamps putting it at a disadvantage against the other houses, and leaving is vulnerable to take over by secondary lines like the cousins.
I suspect Lara wouldn't want to get pregnant. It wouldn't simply be a distraction to her day job of running the White Court, it could seriously weaken her and perhaps even kill her, if she didn't feed enough to maintain her own life force. Though this is just a guess, perhaps any excess feeding might empower the growing White Court fetus and make it even more dangerous to Lara.
So, the next link in this chain of thinking is if Lara wanted an heir, or needed one to fulfil her deal with Mab, she would want to use a surrogate to give birth and take all the risk. Harry would not be happy about a mortal being put in danger, but if Lara chose the invitro method, then; in theory at least, Harry wouldn't have to be informed about what was going on. Lara would only need to get a sperm sample from Harry without him realizing it. Lara might not even have to be the person to collect it.
Actually, I think all this speculation will become moot. Either Lara will knocked off by Harry's bad luck with lovers life expectancy or the marriage will not happen or be annulled.
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Lara could have a whole generation of Raiths gestating in willing surrogates paid well, she could double the size of house Raith in a generation, even if the kids are raised in full knowledge of what they are and given the chance to kill their demon before a first fatal feeding with a willing victim.
Lara is if anything, a modern girl. However she wants a powerful magic user in the family, so Harry’s wedding night may involve
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... However she wants a powerful magic user in the family ..
I'm pretty sure WOJ says that Whamps cannot be powerful magic users. That may not be something Lara knows; or any Whamp knows; or anyone in the Dresdenverse knows (I suspect Mother Summer -- the Intellectus of Fertility -- must know!)
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I really don't care about that, all I'm saying is Harry as daddy really hasn't added that much to the story. There are plenty of other threads that have been left dangling, we don't need any new ones.
Couldn't agree more with this!
And I honestly hope that if we're going to be concern about another child, the focus is on Justine's child. Harry claims to be all about family, so I hope we get to see that.
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I'm pretty sure WOJ says that Whamps cannot be powerful magic users. That may not be something Lara knows; or any Whamp knows; or anyone in the Dresdenverse knows (I suspect Mother Summer -- the Intellectus of Fertility -- must know!)
Doesn’t stop them wanting one, as Thomas demonstrates. He can cast an illusion about himself and use tracking spells, the former Harry himself wasn’t good at until he had to tutor Molly. That is probably proof the Raith’s have a good magical library, and gives the potential for his child with Justine to me a talent as well as a Whamp.
The Black Court magic users in Battle Ground seemed powerful enough, were they turned Wizards? Turned by Drakul rather than another Blamp?
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Powerful is a relative term - compare Thomas TO his relatives. Harry and Eb. Thomas is but a wee little bairn.
the Black Court are former humans. Mavra early on was above Harry's ability to take out, save perhaps with his death curse. Whites are a separate breed. You have to be born a Whamp. Reds might have spell ability too
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Bianca was learning magic to advance in the Red Court, Blamps probably can’t do a death curse, Mavra whilst a lesser talent than Harry has had centuries to hone it, which is presumably the same for the other Blamp Wizards,
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Powerful is a relative term - compare Thomas TO his relatives. Harry and Eb. Thomas is but a wee little bairn.
the Black Court are former humans. Mavra early on was above Harry's ability to take out, save perhaps with his death curse. Whites are a separate breed. You have to be born a Whamp. Reds might have spell ability too
Red Court vamps could be sorcerers. We know that Bianca learned some tricks from Mavra and we saw that Duchess Arianna wielded considerable magical strength; though without as much skill as Harry had, in their duel at Chicken Pizza.
Doesn’t stop them wanting one, as Thomas demonstrates. He can cast an illusion about himself and use tracking spells, the former Harry himself wasn’t good at until he had to tutor Molly.
Did Thomas cast an illusion spell on himself? It's been a while since I read that short story, but I thought the enemy he was chasing put that spell on Thomas, so Harry would target him. I could be wrong though.
If Thomas did cast an illusion spell on himself, that is actually impressive. It's a subtle use of magic and not something a sorcerer would normally do. Sorcerer's tend to like to smash things, blow them up or burn them down. Thomas using an illusion spell would show him to be more of a thinker than Harry gives him credit for.
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We have to be careful with the Reds, they had hijacked the Mayan belief system so power may have been cascading downwards rather than inherent to the practitioner, they may have been conduits rather than practitioners or a combination of the two. Michael for example is not a practioner but has been a conduit for the White God. The Reds may have been doing something similar, but we will never know now,
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Powerful is a relative term - compare Thomas TO his relatives. Harry and Eb. Thomas is but a wee little bairn.
the Black Court are former humans. Mavra early on was above Harry's ability to take out, save perhaps with his death curse. Whites are a separate breed. You have to be born a Whamp. Reds might have spell ability too
OK, Reds might have spell ability too means SOME Reds can have spell ability, just like SOME Blacks have it, as they are former humans. Just like SOME humans might have ability. The Whites are NOT humans. Humans CAN become Reds (well, once they could), and MAY become blacks. They CANNOT become Whites. All Reds and Blacks do not have it.
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I think the explanation(in a WOJ I think)is that magic and life are linked which is why Wizards live so long, but because vampirism is the stealing of life force (directly or through blood) it dampens any magical ability the vampire has. From Harry to Snakeboy drop in power perhaps. Thomas if rid of his demon might hit a significant wizard power level. Whether that is any use to Harry in curing Thomas is another matter, it does set Thomas apart from other Whamps. Thomas certainly seems to exercise his limited talent, so it hasn’t withered like Charity’s.
Harry treats Thomas as the world treats Harry, as a thug, I need to read that story again, myself, it’s been some time and probably worth going through the earlier short fiction again following the most recent stories, we got a couple of really substantial nuggets in The Law and major revelations in PT/BG, that may alter those stories in retrospect. Probably worth re-reading the original comics again for that matter as they are canon. For example in Peace Talks in the flashbacks Malcolm was teaching Harry slight of hand and close in magic. In Wild Card Harry beats Puck in a card game by apparent sheer luck, but I now wonder, did Harry use slight of hand to cheat because he realised Puck was only looking for magical and not mundane methods of cheating.
A re-read is required.
Harry’s got plenty of luck but all of it is bad.
Thats why other characters POV stories are useful, Harry is an unreliable narrator. He portrays Marcone very nearly right, for example, but is way off on Toot in contrast.
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I was thinking about the original reasons for arranged marriage and the reasons for annulments and divorces. the main reason for arranged marriages was the combing of two groups after the production of an heir. history is full of stories about what happens when there is no heir produced. So, my question is will there be a child produced by the nuptials or will the marriage be a barren one with either an annulment because the contract was not upheld by either party when a child is not produced.
Neither the White Court or the Fey Courts use heirs to establish linage. The linage of the Fey is passed through the Mantle which is granted, not inherited, thus Molly. And the Whites use a political mechanism so that while Lara is the leader in fact, she rules through a puppet. Both of the protagonists are immortals in any case. If a Lady is killed a male child could never take up the Fey Mantle. In the case of Lara for a child of Harry to take the leadership of the Whites it would to murder to enable it's demon.
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Neither the White Court or the Fey Courts use heirs to establish linage. The linage of the Fey is passed through the Mantle which is granted, not inherited, thus Molly. And the Whites use a political mechanism so that while Lara is the leader in fact, she rules through a puppet. Both of the protagonists are immortals in any case. If a Lady is killed a male child could never take up the Fey Mantle. In the case of Lara for a child of Harry to take the leadership of the Whites it would to murder to enable it's demon.
Are you sure Carlos couldn’t take up the Lady’s mantle? Virginity rather than gender seems to be the determining requirement there, and that is in short supply in Winter. Carlos could be the Winter Laddy. It’s about his luck with women.
The Virginity requirement would disqualify Lara from Lady, but not Queen (the Mother) and Lara clearly acted as though she were a mother to her siblings, and has tried for a child of her own, so this makes me think she is being groomed as a back-up Queen, especially in marrying the Winter Knight.
Was Mab doing everything in her power to maintain Molly’s virginity pre Mantle? From her recovery from Arctis Tor onwards or before even that? Lea would have helped with the Ragged Lady pantomime post Harry’s ‘death’.
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I don't think Butcher's is that woke.
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I think the mantle is perfectly capable of making you a women. It is a pretty bbasic curse in D&D after all ;D
But only if you don't want it of course.
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I think Jim said somewhere that white court wizards are not as strong as coucil wizards but they can do interesting things with their hunger
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I don't think Butcher's is that woke.
I don’t know, in The Law, Bob is unduly fascinated with Gary’s skull, and appears to want to jump his bones.
Yep Arjan, within a few years Harry would be staring at Carlos bust, purely as a professional trained observer of course.
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Virginity is not a requirement for a Lady's Mantle. Lily was not a virgin when she succeeded Aurora and Sarissa was in-line for both the Summer and Winter offices despite her long life and experiences. The Mantles enforce celibacy and then only in the strictest sense of actual intercourse it seems. There may be considerable leeway in other activities.
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Neither the White Court or the Fey Courts use heirs to establish linage. The linage of the Fey is passed through the Mantle which is granted, not inherited, thus Molly. And the Whites use a political mechanism so that while Lara is the leader in fact, she rules through a puppet. Both of the protagonists are immortals in any case. If a Lady is killed a male child could never take up the Fey Mantle. In the case of Lara for a child of Harry to take the leadership of the Whites it would to murder to enable it's demon.
I think what you are saying is they do not use heirs to determine SUCCESSION. The LINEAGE is biological. Harry is Eb's lineage, Joe knows it, I expect Martha does, and I'd be shocked if Rashid and Langtry don't. It does not mean he gets the Mc Coy Seat, if you will, on the WC. Otherwise there would never be a debate on who gets the open seat, and a Christos is blocked.
Lara rules thru a puppet as it was the quickest, most bloodless method to gain the power. Now, if in a few years it comes to light that she HAS puppeted her father, Whamps may think of a coup. But they also wouled have to realize she had the power to overthrow her father. They may learn Thomas is far from the idiot he pretended, and has some small magical ability, and if she still has her scary AF Winter Knight consort? They saw the duel in Raith Deeps, and he had much less power then. They know about the Red court. If they find out who... they could decide he might not be a man to cross. Plus, wizards only live 4, 500 years. Whamps play the long game.
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Virginity is not a requirement for a Lady's Mantle. Lily was not a virgin when she succeeded Aurora and Sarissa was in-line for both the Summer and Winter offices despite her long life and experiences. The Mantles enforce celibacy and then only in the strictest sense of actual intercourse it seems.
I don't think we actually know if it's a prerequisite, or only enforced after the fact. Nor do we know if Lily or Sarissa were virgins.
Is it celibacy, or virginity?
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The Ladies can ride the Unicorns which is usually associated with virgins.
Harry did ride one in Battle Ground, but standing next to Thomas, Harry looks pretty virginal. As would most men.
The trinity is the Maid, Mother and Crone, and I think in this Jim has been influenced by Pratchett, and his witches, Magrat, Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax (who I suspect influenced the character of Mother Winter).
Jim has made much of Molly’s ongoing virginity, it surely played a major part in why she rather than Justine or Murphy were chosen by the Mantle. Remember, inside the Circle the Mantle had limited choice, but it did have a choice of candidates, and Justine and Murphy were not maids. It just so happens Molly was Mab’s back up, indicating Mab’s prolonged scheming in relation to her. Preserving her virginity was undoubtedly part of this.
In Proven Guilty Molly has a boyfriend, Nelson, a Harry lookalike, her powers are manifesting so her potential as a candidate comes across Mab’s radar. The Gatekeeper tells Harry to investigate Black Magic in Chicago we do not know at this point that the Gatekeeper is allied with Mab. Molly is abducted by Winters Phobophages and taken to Arctis Tor, Mab’s stronghold, rescued by Harry’s party, and faces the White Council, saved by Michael suddenly appearing, obviously due to Uriel’s influence’ but we don’t find out they are working together until Ghost Story) Molly is put under the care of Harry (her unassailable crush) and tightly chaperoned thereafter.
Mab, the Gatekeeper and Uriel appear to have been working together for some time to get a Winter Knight and Winter Lady suitable for the forthcoming travails. Both proved pivotal in Battle Ground, clearly a starter course to the BAT.
This is why I think you need to look at the earlier books with hindsight, the whole files were designed as a whole rather than developing book by book so we the reader through Harry’s POV are not given everything which is actually going on in an earlier book or story, relationships between characters are not clear, but are made clear later on. Now however, ther is less ‘later on’.
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I think what you are saying is they do not use heirs to determine SUCCESSION. The LINEAGE is biological. Harry is Eb's lineage, Joe knows it, I expect Martha does, and I'd be shocked if Rashid and Langtry don't. It does not mean he gets the Mc Coy Seat, if you will, on the WC. Otherwise there would never be a debate on who gets the open seat, and a Christos is blocked.
Lara rules thru a puppet as it was the quickest, most bloodless method to gain the power. Now, if in a few years it comes to light that she HAS puppeted her father, Whamps may think of a coup. But they also wouled have to realize she had the power to overthrow her father. They may learn Thomas is far from the idiot he pretended, and has some small magical ability, and if she still has her scary AF Winter Knight consort? They saw the duel in Raith Deeps, and he had much less power then. They know about the Red court. If they find out who... they could decide he might not be a man to cross. Plus, wizards only live 4, 500 years. Whamps play the long game.
I think I used it correctly. The point of using prodigy to join two royal houses is to be able to join a line biologically to the line of succession, thus producing an heir. But you get the point.
This whole business of the Mantle needing a virgin is somewhat silly. Slate raped Lily. So whatever her status was as Lady it didn't take virginity to get there.
The unicorn is Mab's and Mab is not a virgin.
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Consider how the Bloodline curse worked, whilst it would almost certainly would take Thomas, there was concern as to whether it would spread through to Lara and Thomas other half-sisters as it was so seriously overpowered. It could have taken out House Raith and a good part of the White Court. This is the peril of joining linages, and why blood has so much credence amongst the supernatural. A child by Harry gives the White Court a hostage against both Harry and Eb which the entire supernatural world is aware of. This is why consummation is likely to be insisted upon. The other Houses look forward to the birth of a little hostage, not consummating would undermine Lara politically internally. Externally Harry is effectively now seen as supernatural nuclear power (although he has been since he realised Demonreachs full potential) and a child creates a failsafe for them.
Basically Harry is going to have the entire White Court and the leaders of the Accorded Nations cheering him on on his wedding night. I hope Harry doesn’t suffer from performance anxiety.
In this age a child hostage is more important than the consumation.
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Didn't Jim say there'd be no more Dresden tykes? Not that he couldn't change his mind.
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I believe so, but that doesn’t stop Harry from being pressurised to produce a sprog.
By both Mab and by Lara.
Frankly, he may find going into the Mirrorverse or the BAT a blessed relief.
I can see Harry taking steps to avoid this (image off Harry repeatedly punching himself in the groin whilst letting off his force rings and shouting “You traitor!’
Family is precious to Harry, but he could never have a child with someone he doesn’t love, but that is so alien to Mab, Lara might understand it but would not allow sentimentality to overcome business or politics.
I wouldn’t have put it past Mab to have some of Harry’s semen frozen from his recovery from the shooting.
It would be a very Winter thing to do.
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When at the end of proven guilty Harry asks about Molly’s virginity she says technically.
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I don't think we actually know if it's a prerequisite, or only enforced after the fact. Nor do we know if Lily or Sarissa were virgins.
Is it celibacy, or virginity?
Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court
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Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court
In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional. While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent. What constitutes a virgin anyway? The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.
Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.
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I think I used it correctly. The point of using prodigy to join two royal houses is to be able to join a line biologically to the line of succession, thus producing an heir. But you get the point.
...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny.... smh
lineage is lineage. Everyone has it. It is not line of succession. If Queen Elizabeth died, and Prince Philip survived, he would be part of Charles lineage. He would NOT be in the line of succession, he cannot become king. Also, lineage cannot change. Rules of succession CAN and do - England changed theirs 10 or 20 years ago, from male preferred primogeniture to absolute.
It does not have to be used. Molly is not in Mab's lineage. There is no blood there. She is her apparent successor. She is Michael's lineage. I have never seen her suggested to be a KOTC.
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Are you sure Carlos couldn’t take up the Lady’s mantle? Virginity rather than gender seems to be the determining requirement there, and that is in short supply in Winter. Carlos could be the Winter Laddy. It’s about his luck with women.
Wouldn't it be funny as heck if he was passed the mantle - then the magic transformed his body to fit the role? He'd flip, and Harry and Bob would laugh their butts off (Bob, of course, only metaphorically)
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The Ladies can ride the Unicorns which is usually associated with virgins.
That appears to have gotten into the myth rather late. Also, Chinese myths had rather ugly unicorns. Mab has an ugly one too.
Harry did ride one in Battle Ground, but standing next to Thomas, Harry looks pretty virginal. As would most men.
Except Carlos! [/quote]
The trinity is the Maid, Mother and Crone, and I think in this Jim has been influenced by Pratchett, and his witches, Magrat, Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax (who I suspect influenced the character of Mother Winter).
does predate Prachett too though.
Jim has made much of Molly’s ongoing virginity, it surely played a major part in why she rather than Justine or Murphy were chosen by the Mantle. Remember, inside the Circle the Mantle had limited choice, but it did have a choice of candidates, and Justine and Murphy were not maids. It just so happens Molly was Mab’s back up, indicating Mab’s prolonged scheming in relation to her. Preserving her virginity was undoubtedly part of this.
In Proven Guilty Molly has a boyfriend, Nelson, a Harry lookalike, her powers are manifesting so her potential as a candidate comes across Mab’s radar. The Gatekeeper tells Harry to investigate Black Magic in Chicago we do not know at this point that the Gatekeeper is allied with Mab. Molly is abducted by Winters Phobophages and taken to Arctis Tor, Mab’s stronghold, rescued by Harry’s party, and faces the White Council, saved by Michael suddenly appearing, obviously due to Uriel’s influence’ but we don’t find out they are working together until Ghost Story) Molly is put under the care of Harry (her unassailable crush) and tightly chaperoned thereafter.
Mab, the Gatekeeper and Uriel appear to have been working together for some time to get a Winter Knight and Winter Lady suitable for the forthcoming travails. Both proved pivotal in Battle Ground, clearly a starter course to the BAT.
Have NO idea if you are right, but you have done some job of making a framework to link these things, and I applaud a job well done! It might be wrong, but it seems on the face a plausible possibility.
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In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional. While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent. What constitutes a virgin anyway? The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.
Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.
Or maybe she was more than she thought. There was a reason she did not cross that line.
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Or maybe she was more than she thought. There was a reason she did not cross that line.
Remember at the end of Proven Guilty, Harry warned her and stressed the importance of her remaining a virgin. Now whether it was because she represented too much of a temptation for him, since she already had a super crush for lack of a better word on him, or because it was truly a rule for apprentices, not sure.. Or he had foresight that he was in denial about that she could become Winter Lady some day, so needed to remain a virgin. Now being a virgin upon assuming the mantle of Winter Lady may or may not be a prerequisite, but it is clear that once the mantle of Winter Lady is assumed, the Lady must remain so. Thus we have a very frustrated Maeve living through the kinky sex she forces others to perform in front of her, or poor Carlos getting the crap kicked out of him by attempting to have sex with Molly.
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Remember at the end of Proven Guilty, Harry warned her and stressed the importance of her remaining a virgin. Now whether it was because she represented too much of a temptation for him, since she already had a super crush for lack of a better word on him, or because it was truly a rule for apprentices, not sure.. Or he had foresight that he was in denial about that she could become Winter Lady some day, so needed to remain a virgin. Now being a virgin upon assuming the mantle of Winter Lady may or may not be a prerequisite, but it is clear that once the mantle of Winter Lady is assumed, the Lady must remain so. Thus we have a very frustrated Maeve living through the kinky sex she forces others to perform in front of her, or poor Carlos getting the crap kicked out of him by attempting to have sex with Molly.
Sex is all about emotion and magic is too. Her catholic upbringing also brings some attitudes about sex that have to be handled. She also was a young adult which can be a turbulent period and she was a warlock which is also problematic emotional. She had to learn to handle her emotions. I tend to believe Harry when he told her that’s that stage it was just dangerous.
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In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional. While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent. What constitutes a virgin anyway? The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.
Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.
Yes, Molly alluded to some knowledge of the practice of BDSM, Lilly may have been subjected to similar but involuntary advances from Lloyd Slate which did not involve a procreative element.
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...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny.... smh
lineage is lineage. Everyone has it. It is not line of succession. If Queen Elizabeth died, and Prince Philip survived, he would be part of Charles lineage. He would NOT be in the line of succession, he cannot become king. Also, lineage cannot change. Rules of succession CAN and do - England changed theirs 10 or 20 years ago, from male preferred primogeniture to absolute.
It does not have to be used. Molly is not in Mab's lineage. There is no blood there. She is her apparent successor. She is Michael's lineage. I have never seen her suggested to be a KOTC.
I apologize for not meeting your standards of language. I'll keep it simple. In the White Court you don't inherit a crown and it's certainly not how Lara came to control the Whites. And in the Fey court the mantle determines what you are and the Mab chooses who wears the mantle. Given that there is no need for a child to cement two royal families together. There are no royal families. This is Butcher satisfying some itch he hasn't established yet in the text. He wanted to hook up Lara and Harry. He has now done so.
@Mira
Virgin means exactly whatever Butcher intends it to mean. Certainly where Sarissa was concerned you can't believe she was celibate for 300 or so years while she fiddled around enjoying immortality? If you want to carry this absurdity out to the obvious conclusion then are you suggesting that most lesbians in the Dresdenverse are virgins because they've never had sexual intercourse with a man?
@Conspiracy Theorist
I will point out that Molly was 14 when Butcher establishes this particular point, all to show that he could insert a BDSM scene in the DF.
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It could have been part of the deal Sarissa had with her mother. But I do not think it was necessary. I think the mantle makes you a virgin.
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Virgin means exactly whatever Butcher intends it to mean. Certainly where Sarissa was concerned you can't believe she was celibate for 300 or so years while she fiddled around enjoying immortality? If you want to carry this absurdity out to the obvious conclusion then are you suggesting that most lesbians in the Dresdenverse are virgins because they've never had sexual intercourse with a man?
Yes, in some circles that is it exactly, lesbians are considered virgins.. It goes along with the idea that if a woman's maiden head is broken she is no longer a virgin.. When it can become broken in a number of innocent ways, excluding intercourse with a man. And for that matter, why couldn't Sarissa be celibate for three hundred years if she chose to be? Molly saying she is technically is no different than what many teens of her age said and are saying, they can fool around sexually all they want, but as long as there is no actual intercourse, they are still virgins.
Molly was older than fourteen at the end of Proven Guilty, I believe she was more like sixteen, that is when Harry told her if she wanted to be an apprentice she had to remain a virgin.
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I can't go down this rabbit whole any further but I'll finish with this. Only a man would write this foolishness. How could Harry know?
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When at the end of proven guilty Harry asks about Molly’s virginity she says technically.
Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court
This tangent is getting into particularly ugly places. Apologies to anyone for whom it's becoming a problem; and thanks to people who are being sensitive to the problem; and pleas to everyone to continue to be so!
Regarding that "technicality" -- I think this is exactly the kind of technicality that Winter Law embraces. Molly is entirely "virginal" for purposes of the Lady's Mantle, however many "bases" she has run (that being the specific metaphor she used, IIRC).
I think it's very possible that Slate was subtly constrained (by Mab? -- who may well have seen a Mantle for Lily as a distant-but-possible contingency plan) to similarly "preserve" Lily's technical virginity. Huge amounts of cruelty can be inflicted without crossing that specific line.
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...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny .... smh
And ParanetOnline is specifically an international forum, with plenty of folk for whom English is not a native language.
And in these "glorious" modern days of speech-to-text, autocomplete, & autocorrupt, this may be an error of the *device* not the person.
The days of pointing out these sorts of errors as anything relevant or valid are long over.
smh, indeed.
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I'll give him/her the point and say that I misspoke and meant progeny instead of prodigy. I simplified it and took out all the big words to make sure my point was clear. As for the other, it's impact on me is minimal since being old and dull, I had to look up smh.
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I can't go down this rabbit whole any further but I'll finish with this. Only a man would write this foolishness. How could Harry know?
It is a well established fact Harry knows absolutely NOTHING about women.
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And ParanetOnline is specifically an international forum, with plenty of folk for whom English is not a native language.
Yes, there are a lot of American’s on it. Aluminium. Colour. Grey. Etc.
Plus the damned Spell checker.
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Harry's instructions to Molly at the end of proven guilty were more specific to her than a general rule. He wasn't trying to keep her a virgin, he just wanted to stop her from having an orgasm (he forbade her to masturbate). I think he believed her volatile emotions would combine with her sensitivite powers to turn her into a warlock.
I believe the "virginity" clause of the Lady mantle wasn't something that was originally intended by Butcher in Summer Knight, thus Lily. He added it later to serve something in the plot. Maybe to keep Molly as a forbidden match for Harry.
This happens sometimes. I don't believe for a second that Butcher knows EXACTLY how everything is going to happen in his series, just the general outline. Everything else gets created along the way, with plot points moving him in different directions.
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Yes, in some circles that is it exactly, lesbians are considered virgins..
reminded me of a passage in a humorous fantasy, The Inadequate Adept by Simon Hawke. An elf has just been saved by a dragon, swooping down, breathing fire at the ugly unicorns who do not like virgins chasing her. She is brought up to the castle turret before the wizard who ordered the rescue, with the prince standing by
W: "Why were the unicorns chasing you?"
B: "Obviously, she's a virgin."
E: "I am NOT a virgin!"
B: "The unicorns knew better. They would have smelled a man on you"
E: "I have never had a man on me, thank you very much!"
B: "Then what did you mean when you said you weren't a .....""Oh, I see"
oops... edit - "B:" was Prince Brian, cursed to be - no kidding, a werechamberpot. He was only human at full moon until the curse was lifted
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reminded me of a passage in a humorous fantasy, The Inadequate Adept by Simon Hawke. An elf has just been saved by a dragon, swooping down, breathing fire at the ugly unicorns who do not like virgins chasing her. She is brought up to the castle turret before the wizard who ordered the rescue, with the prince standing by
W: "Why were the unicorns chasing you?"
B: "Obviously, she's a virgin."
E: "I am NOT a virgin!"
B: "The unicorns knew better. They would have smelled a man on you"
E: "I have never had a man on me, thank you very much!"
B: "Then what did you mean when you said you weren't a .....""Oh, I see"
Which proves the point that "virginity" isn't an easy thing to define.. How it is defined varies a lot depending on culture and religion. I think a better avenue to pursue for the Winter Lady isn't her status as or not as a virgin, but that once she assumes the mantle it appears that she must be celibate.. It is a rule that the mantle apparently strictly enforces as both Molly and Carlos found out. I believe it also was the source of Maeve's frustrations so much so, that even if she was never infected would eventually have led to madness. Actually it makes sense in a way, a celibate Lady cannot take lovers nor give birth, either of which could possibly present a threat to the Queen.
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Molly’s previous unrequited love for Harry made her an excellent candidate, she was prepared to wait for Harry. When she becomes Queen the wait is over.
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House Raith is led by female Whamps putting it at a disadvantage against the other houses, and leaving is vulnerable to take over by secondary lines like the cousins.
I'm not convinced Whamps subscribe to human notions of sexism, that having female leadership would be a disadvantage. The Malvora's were led by a woman until the coup attempt, and she was considered just as much of a threat to overthrow House Raith if Lord Raith's weakness became public as the Skavis kird was. And the coup attempt killed not just the pair of them, but most of the second tier around them.
Lara is probably in more danger from other Raiths when the charade of her father being functional eventually fails than Raith overall is from any of the other houses. She's probably planning as much for that contingency as for external events in seeking the arranged marriage, whether it produces a child or not.
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In terms of progeny, the Male dominated Houses will have been increasing their size much faster than Raith.
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I'm not convinced Whamps subscribe to human notions of sexism, that having female leadership would be a disadvantage. The Malvora's were led by a woman until the coup attempt, and she was considered just as much of a threat to overthrow House Raith if Lord Raith's weakness became public as the Skavis kird was. And the coup attempt killed not just the pair of them, but most of the second tier around them.
Lara is probably in more danger from other Raiths when the charade of her father being functional eventually fails than Raith overall is from any of the other houses. She's probably planning as much for that contingency as for external events in seeking the arranged marriage, whether it produces a child or not.
I think there is some sexism, but it is not absolute. look at the world a few decades ago. Women leading were unusual, but not unique - Golda Meir. Margaret Thatcher. Indira Gandhi. Papa Raith had his sons killed as potential threats. The daughters lived. He thought them less dangerous...
I would not be surprised that when the facade falls the inner circle amongst the Raiths all know. Thomas does. I would expect Lara is slowly leaking it to her sisters, if she has not already done so. The cousins, not so much. Some may know, some will not know until the facade falls. She will consolidate her power - and the fact she enthralled the king and had everyone fooled for a time makes her appear more formidable. Plus, she now has an alliance with Winter.... seen any Whamps you put up against Lea? Maybe outintrigue Lea (and maybe not!) but straight up, she stomps
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The being out bred by the other Houses, may be why she is allying with Winter, to benefit House Raith and not just the White Court.
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If they are being outbred by other houses, could any of it be because a female skewing ratio in House Raith, by Daddy killing off his sons?
Are most WC-human hybrids Male vamp/human female or female vamp/male human? Seems to me the vamps would likely prefer to use human women to carry to term instead of their own. And if a female vamp gets pregnant, she is not getting pregnant again for 9 months, a male vamp can try to impregnate again later that night...
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Yes, In the long term Raith was doing his House a disservice, a male whamp can sire multiple pregnancies over the period of a single female Whamp pregnancy, even presuming they have similar levels of fertility, but whilst a single mature egg may be generated over a 28 day cycle, the Male Whamp would generate millions of sperm over the same period.
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Yes, In the long term Raith was doing his House a disservice, a male whamp can sire multiple pregnancies over the period of a single female Whamp pregnancy, even presuming they have similar levels of fertility, but whilst a single mature egg may be generated over a 28 day cycle, the Male Whamp would generate millions of sperm over the same period.
I think the problem is one of sperm count, remember Thomas originally thought that he was sterile. With the exception of Lord Raith's kids there are very few WCV children running around. Which could be why Lord Raith seemed to have chosen human females for mating.
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I think the problem is one of sperm count, remember Thomas originally thought that he was sterile. With the exception of Lord Raith's kids there are very few WCV children running around. Which could be why Lord Raith seemed to have chosen human females for mating.
Sperm-count; and/or maybe motility.
The (potential) whamp sire may be draining life-energy from his own sperm. Certainly he's far into his own sexual pleasure (and hence his feeding cycle) every time he tries to get his partner pregnant.
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I think the problem is one of sperm count, remember Thomas originally thought that he was sterile. With the exception of Lord Raith's kids there are very few WCV children running around. Which could be why Lord Raith seemed to have chosen human females for mating.
could be BOTH males and females are low fertility. Too, consider how long Whamps live. Tortoises breed slowly. Rabbits, which live a year in the wild, breed like... well, rabbits....
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could be BOTH males and females are low fertility. Too, consider how long Whamps live. Tortoises breed slowly. Rabbits, which live a year in the wild, breed like... well, rabbits....
That makes sense..
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I agree about both male and female whampires having low fertility is the most probable explanation.
Still, I think the marriage is not to be consummated, and will be nullified because of that. But why it won't be consummated? Because Harry is still protected by true love. Lara and Harry do not want to be married, so they will use it as an excuse for breaking the marriage.
(As we are a little touchy about writing, sorry if I made any mistake. As many of you know, English is not my first language).
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I agree about both male and female whampires having low fertility is the most probable explanation.
Still, I think the marriage is not to be consummated, and will be nullified because of that. But why it won't be consummated? Because Harry is still protected by true love. Lara and Harry do not want to be married, so they will use it as an excuse for breaking the marriage.
(As we are a little touchy about writing, sorry if I made any mistake. As many of you know, English is not my first language).
I may be wrong - but I thought that protection only applied when the two lovers are both alive... Murphy is dead. Susan protected Harry as she was just estranged.
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I do not remember that being said in text. Do you remember if after Karin's death Harry touched Lara?
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I do not remember that being said in text. Do you remember if after Karin's death Harry touched Lara?
Not that I recall. Maybe it was something said here, or a WOJ? You COULD justify it in a way - recall that Bob says Harry had little pieces of his soul gone, that he shared them with someone, a hug, or the like? Maybe that is what protects against Whamps, but when someone dies... it goes to Heaven with them. That is why people feel they lost a part of themselves, they have to grow their souls over the missing part. Susan hadn't died - Harry still had a little piece of her. Murphy is gone, so that left this plane to Valhalla.
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It may be, but unless someone shows me something in text, I will keep my theory until !2 months. Mm, perhaps not even a text would convince me. Not after the trick Jim played us with the Christmas story. :)
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Not that I recall. Maybe it was something said here, or a WOJ? You COULD justify it in a way - recall that Bob says Harry had little pieces of his soul gone, that he shared them with someone, a hug, or the like? Maybe that is what protects against Whamps, but when someone dies... it goes to Heaven with them. That is why people feel they lost a part of themselves, they have to grow their souls over the missing part. Susan hadn't died - Harry still had a little piece of her. Murphy is gone, so that left this plane to Valhalla.
As far as Bob goes, Harry said after he confronted Mother Winter in Cold Days and had his eureka moment about Soul Fire, that on this subject Bob didn't know everything. Now whether he was limiting that to Soul Fire or the Soul? And you are right, Harry, at least on page has not touched Lara since Murphy died. Actually Lara would remember the burn she got from Harry back in White Night because Harry hadn't been with anyone since Susan left him and his true love lingered.
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It may be, but unless someone shows me something in text, I will keep my theory until !2 months. Mm, perhaps not even a text would convince me. Not after the trick Jim played us with the Christmas story. :)
Which trick do you mean?
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Two versions of Christmas Eve, one released before Battle Ground calling Harry “wizard of the White Council” the later one released with BG calling him “wizard of Chicago”.
One is tempted to consider he may have done something similar with The Law, disinformation corrected on the “official” publication.
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Exactly. I was all PT/BG convinced that the vote will be in Harry's favour. It surprised me, so I suppose I have to say "well played", but it made me wary of anything that is not in books.
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I may be wrong - but I thought that protection only applied when the two lovers are both alive... Murphy is dead. Susan protected Harry as she was just estranged.
I don't think there's anything in text to support that the protection dies with the lover, no.
The True Love TM protection seems to change a bit from book to book, JB is a bit inconsistent about it, but in general it seems like the True Love TM protection "settles" over the people involved when there is an "exchange" between them, love mutually freely given, they both have to act on said love through sex, it's got a bit of a ritualistic aspect to it. So, it's like the lovers perform their own little ritual and that sets the protection over them. That's why it breaks with the previous person when they perform the ritual with someone else (if they share love too it will settle again, if there's no real love -Luccio- it will wipe the old protection and not create a new one), and why it remains if they don't, even when time passes.
So, I dunno how death would affect it, I tend to think it doesn't. From a writing perspective, why would JB made sure to let us know that Harry did share True Love TM with Murphy and enjoys that protection from it, only to have it disappear with her death? When it's more interesting to make Harry suffer by having him needing to voluntarily give it up in the marriage?
Also, it's an useful tool if he plans to have Harry not succumb to/be protected from the White Court mojo he's probably going to be surrounded by in the next book.
But I'm sure that's one of those things we're going to learn about in the next book.
It'd be interesting to see how that resolves, considering that Thomas pointed out at even objects can be affected by the True Love TM protection.
I do not remember that being said in text. Do you remember if after Karin's death Harry touched Lara?
Some fans will say they have touched at the end of Battle Ground, shaking hands when they agreed to work together to find Justine, don't mind that, they are forgetting that while they shook hands, Lara was wearing gloves. So, no, they haven't had skin to skin contact since that time he burned her in Peace Talks.
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Thanks Lara! :)
I am not sure Harry is going to have to renounce it. As I said, it is a good excuse to nullify the marriage if needed, and to protect him for all the whampires, including his wife. But we will see.
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Thanks Lara! :)
I am not sure Harry is going to have to renounce it. As I said, it is a good excuse to nullify the marriage if needed, and to protect him for all the whampires, including his wife. But we will see.
:D I really really hope he doesn't have to renounce it.
Tbh, I'm a bit baffled by the turn of events and moreso by the reactions of some fans jumping immediately into the "Harry will surely fall for Lara in the next book and they will have a relationship" bandwagon. I mean, it's cool if the ship is interesting to people, and sure there is some chemistry there. But to me, Harry always showed so much will in resisting the White Court mojo, being pretty confident in his assertion that "it wasn't real", that he was very aware that it wasn't more than a trick, a fantasy, that he knew the real deal.
So, honestly I'd find it so unlike Harry if he were to just fall in love with Lara in the next book and willingly pursue a relationship and be okay with the marriage (Murphy aside). It's just too soon IMO, it'd be rushed.
But I have to say the way Harry behaves in PT/BG stripped me of that confidence I had in Harry/the author's writing of him in regards to that relationship. Plus the treatment in general of Murphy in the context of this relationship too (Harry seems, for most of Peace Talks, to have taken a step back from where his mind was at the end of Skin Game -when he even drops the "love" word already- and in the moments when he's alone with Lara there's a lot of stuff going on there and not once one of his thoughts is "wait a second, I shouldn't be drooling over Lara because I also know the real deal and that is my current GF").
But anyway, yeah, I hope we don't have to see him renounce his protection (or Murphy). But I'm not confident, because story/writing-wise, it does create a lot of tension and drama if he goes reluctantly into it and excitement for a part of the fanbase if he does it willingly.
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I agree with you about Harry and Lara. That said, I think part of the excitement is because Lara is a good character and one we can see being Harry partner. i mean, not a romantic partner but a comrade. In a way, like Thomas. But with the added interest of Lara being a woman. With Molly being the Lady, which is a totally different thing than human affairs, Susan and Murphy dead and Elaine mostly out of the picture (and not too popular among the fans), Lara is the only "female lead" that appears suitable. And the times that Harry and Lara worked for the same objective, it has been very good. So yes, people supports her. I like to see her, even when I do not want to see Harry falling for her. Lately, Harry seems to be less strict with the bad guys. Marcone is an example, but I can see reasons for that (and frankly, if Harry had been any indication of being bisexual, I would ship Marcone/Harry without doubts :)). But Lara? Only because she is somewhat family (the sister of his brother) Harry seems to forget that she is a vampire, a killer, and an unrepentant one.
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@Dina
Marcone is a killer, too. And he is a Denarian now.
I too don't want to see Harry fall for Lara, but I agree that he trying to somehow arrange himself with the marriage and probably moments of doubting his own feelings and feeling guilty about Karrin will make the story hurtful but interesting. And also there is potential of funny parts.
I just imagine Harry being obedient to the word, like there is an agreement that he has to wear a black tux at some event and he turns up wearing the tux with pink sneakers, just because there was nothing in the contract about what shoes to wear. Honestly I expect something like that happening.
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Oh yes, I'd like to see something like that too.
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Harry would turn up in one of those Black Tux t-shirts.
Or if it’s formalwear, his robes from the White Council, complete with a hat which says “Wizzard”
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Or now that he's grown up a bit something less obviously noticeable. For example glacier blue socks... What? It's Winter colours! ;)
Edit: on the other hand I think, one should never be too old to provoke some snobs with non conform outfit, even if it is just a tiny detail.
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Or now that he's grown up a bit something less obviously noticeable. For example glacier blue socks... What? It's Winter colours! ;)
Edit: on the other hand I think, one should never be too old to provoke some snobs with non conform outfit, even if it is just a tiny detail.
Yeah, even if it is wild underwear, or wearing none at all and only you know! ::)
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Harry would turn up in one of those Black Tux t-shirts.
Or if it’s formalwear, his robes from the White Council, complete with a hat which says “Wizzard”
I've been wanting him to wear that hat for ages.
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I've been wanting him to wear that hat for ages.
That’s what he needs to wear facing off the White Council.
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That’s what he needs to wear facing off the White Council.
Absolutely!
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Well they are denying him the title Wizard, they can hardly complain if he calls himself a Wizzard.
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Exactly. I was all PT/BG convinced that the vote will be in Harry's favour. It surprised me, so I suppose I have to say "well played", but it made me wary of anything that is not in books.
I'm pretty sure Harry being kicked out of the WC was always part of Jim's plan.
I just think Jim wasn't entirely certain when that was going to happen, and got clarity on this point between the original (Christmas-eve) release of "Christmas Eve" and the later, "official" publication.
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... But to me, Harry always showed so much will in resisting the White Court mojo, being pretty confident in his assertion that "it wasn't real", that he was very aware that it wasn't more than a trick, a fantasy, that he knew the real deal.
So, honestly I'd find it so unlike Harry if he were to just fall in love with Lara in the next book and willingly pursue a relationship and be okay with the marriage (Murphy aside). It's just too soon IMO, it'd be rushed.
But I have to say the way Harry behaves in PT/BG stripped me of that confidence I had in Harry/the author's writing of him in regards to that relationship. Plus the treatment in general of Murphy in the context of this relationship too (Harry seems, for most of Peace Talks, to have taken a step back from where his mind was at the end of Skin Game -when he even drops the "love" word already- and in the moments when he's alone with Lara there's a lot of stuff going on there and not once one of his thoughts is "wait a second, I shouldn't be drooling over Lara because I also know the real deal and that is my current GF")...
The thing is, nothing can protect you from the Whamp mojo. Not True Love, not a magic circle, nothing.
When a Whamp turns on the whampery, you *will* feel desire.
True Love can protect you from the touch of a Whamp, that's all.
What Harry has is something else...
- the self-awareness that all manner of bodily urges can be experienced, without being acted-upon
- years of experience as a wizard, doing just that: setting aside the physical, using the emotional, all as fuel for his will and his magic
- superhuman -- possibly Starborn? (a WAG of mine) -- levels of sheer stubbornness
Harry knows the Whampery is inevitable, so he's not gonna go all self-doubt when his body reacts; all that means is that he's not dead.
But -- regarding a genuine relationship with Lara -- Harry also knows this is possible, because of Thomas & Justine.
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I'm pretty sure Harry being kicked out of the WC was always part of Jim's plan.
I just think Jim wasn't entirely certain when that was going to happen, and got clarity on this point between the original (Christmas-eve) release of "Christmas Eve" and the later, "official" publication.
It was telegraphed in Turn Coat when the Gatekeeper commented it wasn’t the time for Harry to stand up to the White Council.
I believe that time may be coming.
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It was telegraphed in Turn Coat when the Gatekeeper commented it wasn’t the time for Harry to stand up to the White Council.
I believe that time may be coming.
Agreed
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Of course it was JB plan all the time. I just think that he knew what he was doing, he intentionally put "wizard of the WC" in the original Christmas' Eve so not to spoil BG for us.
The thing is, nothing can protect you from the Whamp mojo. Not True Love, not a magic circle, nothing.
When a Whamp turns on the whampery, you *will* feel desire.
True Love can protect you from the touch of a Whamp, that's all.
What Harry has is something else...
- the self-awareness that all manner of bodily urges can be experienced, without being acted-upon
- years of experience as a wizard, doing just that: setting aside the physical, using the emotional, all as fuel for his will and his magic
- superhuman -- possibly Starborn? (a WAG of mine) -- levels of sheer stubbornness
Harry knows the Whampery is inevitable, so he's not gonna go all self-doubt when his body reacts; all that means is that he's not dead.
But -- regarding a genuine relationship with Lara -- Harry also knows this is possible, because of Thomas & Justine.
You will feel desire, that is fine, but if the whampire can't touch you, I think he cannot feed of you. He cannot weaken you, or kill you.
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Of course it was JB plan all the time. I just think that he knew what he was doing, he intentionally put "wizard of the WC" in the original Christmas' Eve so not to spoil BG for us.
Funny I never noticed that.. But would it have spoiled us that much? I mean I believe I've heard Harry refer to himself as Chicago's Wizard, at any rate it went right over my head... But then again a lot of things have of late.. ::)
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You will feel desire, that is fine, but if the whampire can't touch you, I think he cannot feed of you. He cannot weaken you, or kill you.
I think that's more-or-less correct, yes.
No touching, no feeding (note however that Justine was able to burn a Whamp with just a touch of her hair).
On the other hand, it depends how you define "weaken." They don't have to steal your life-force away to be able to make you a "weaker" (less effective) opponent:
Crazed with lust isn't exactly the best frame of mind when you need to concentrate on the intricacies of a legal argument.
"Situational Awareness" can be critical in combat, and almost nonexistent when mostly all you're "aware" of is the Whamp
etc ...
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I see a problem but it's hard to put the words on paper. I blush easily. If a hair can burn a vampire then how could Lara ever get pregnant? Sperm and egg would be like matter and antimatter. :-[
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I see a problem but it's hard to put the words on paper. I blush easily. If a hair can burn a vampire then how could Lara ever get pregnant? Sperm and egg would be like matter and antimatter. :-[
I daresay a great many "political" marriages aimed at creating an heir had no love involved.
So long as any partner of a Whamp wasn't in love -- or took care to "eliminate" the protection by having sex with someone else -- there's no problem (other than Whamp's inherent low fertility).
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I daresay a great many "political" marriages aimed at creating an heir had no love involved.
So long as any partner of a Whamp wasn't in love -- or took care to "eliminate" the protection by having sex with someone else -- there's no problem (other than Whamp's inherent low fertility).
Well, that also would assume the baby is Harry's in fact and not just in name
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I see a problem but it's hard to put the words on paper. I blush easily. If a hair can burn a vampire then how could Lara ever get pregnant? Sperm and egg would be like matter and antimatter. :-[
Before that, surprise, but for consummate a marriage you have to actually touch your partner. That is why I said the protection will be what they need to not consummate the marriage, and will use it as an excuse to divorce. (if they marry at all).
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... That is why I said the protection will be what they need to not consummate the marriage, and will use it as an excuse to divorce. (if they marry at all).
I don't think that will suffice.
Mab: "Easily solved, my Knight. Find some wench and tumble her. There are many who are willing. If nothing else, I can take you back to my own bower before the wedding is consummated... what is that mortal tradition, again? Ah yes: ius primae noctis, right of first night."
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And she would.
And put it on Winter PBS like last time.
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And she would.
Oh, absolutely!
But honestly, I don't think Mab particularly expects this marriage to go through. I think she's using it to put extra pressure on the Raith household (since one of their key personnel was recently found to be Nemfected); and extra pressure on Harry, to make him a more-effective weapon.
So, she'll threaten him; and if he doesn't find a way out from under, she'll likely carry through with the threats. But she isn't really invested in that outcome.
...
And put it on Winter PBS like last time.
IIRC that was all of Faerie, not just Winter.
I think that was a 1-time special, though -- the ascension of her new Knight.
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I don't think that will suffice.
Mab: "Easily solved, my Knight. Find some wench and tumble her. There are many who are willing. If nothing else, I can take you back to my own bower before the wedding is consummated... what is that mortal tradition, again? Ah yes: ius primae noctis, right of first night."
My WAG is that Harry and Lara are hiding the touching problem for now. Once they are married, Harry would say that his vows forbid him to be unfaithful and, as she is of legal alignment, Mab cannot force him to break that vow. I admit I had not thought in the prima noctis thing, but for some reason I do not see her doing so. Her first thing with Harry was more than physical sex, it was something special, a reaffirmation of her claim over him, but remember Harry's body was still hurt and, if I am not mistaken, their union was a spiritual/mental something something. Harry's body still was in the same place.
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With just a little quick thinking, the protection can be used to Harry and Lara's benefit.
If during Next Book, they are seen working together and dating, they can "reveal" the protection as being with each other, get married and then have a perfect excuse for not cohabiting continuously. I doubt many in the House know of Thomas' solution with Justine so it won't be odd to be together rarely and make a show of tragic star crossed love blooming in times of turmoil and kept apart by the White Court curse.
Given that justification, they can stay married but be separate.
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... Her first thing with Harry was more than physical sex, it was something special, a reaffirmation of her claim over him ...
Oh, yes; of course. It was a ritual.
Ritual sex is a Big Deal(tm).
Ritual sex between a Faerie Queen and a Starborn... on the Stone Table, which channels energy???
... but remember Harry's body was still hurt and, if I am not mistaken, their union was a spiritual/mental something something. Harry's body still was in the same place.
I'm pretty sure you're right, although I think it may be fair to say "it's more complicated than that." Standing there at the Stone Table, negotiating with Mab as she stalked around him... Harry was standing there; i.e. not limited by his broken back.
Mab (as Harry realized) was closing a circle around him.
I think at some point she actually summoned him (physically) into the circle. Probably after she he had him laying on the Stone Table (since he was laying down, back at the church).
She healed him there, on the table: I think his body had to be there, for that to happen. Not even Mab has unlimited power, after all.
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The Stone Table transfers power, so I think Mab temporarily shared her immortality with Harry to heal him, she couldn’t do so otherwise, look at when Harry was shot, she had to heal him through other means.
That was incredibly risky, on par with Uriel giving Michael his grace which contained his immortality.
Note Uriel couldn’t do this for Harry, unlike Michael. Incompatible energies?
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... on par with Uriel giving Michael his grace which contained his immortality.
Note Uriel couldn’t do this for Harry, unlike Michael. Incompatible energies?
I note that Uriel didn't give Harry his Grace. I infer that he wouldn't, not that he couldn't.
More like "incompatible moralities," I think... Harry has already proven (repeatedly) that he isn't suitable for a Sword of the Cross; Harry himself agrees with that (note that he never personally wielded a Sword... not even to rescue Maggie!)
I expect he's even less suitable to bear the Grace of an Angel.
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The point is that healing with magic is difficult. The Alphas have worked out a nasty way for themselves but healing someone else is much more difficult.
We have Lea healing Harry from a concussion in GP, Uriel temporarily healing Michael in SG and Mab healing Harry’s back in Changes and that about it for gross physical injury.
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... look at when Harry was shot, she had to heal him through other means ...
I think that was Mab supporting a critically-injured body that had no spirit or soul inside it (i.e. the body is trying to die) ...
...
And doing so for a timespan approaching a year (i.e. across the changing of the seasons, living inside Summer's territory!)
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It ascribes limits to Mab’s capability of healing outside of the Stone Table.
The Stone Table has certain ceremonial uses and Mab’s Mantle would prohibit her using it otherwise. Curing Harry on his becoming Winter Knight was acceptable. Healing him literally the next day from a gunshot was not.
I wonder is this is a proscription of the White God to protect human bodily autonomy, free will and to push mankind to advance medical technology? The exceptions are very limited, and this is something oft stated - medical technology is about as good as magic these days.
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With just a little quick thinking, the protection can be used to Harry and Lara's benefit.
If during Next Book, they are seen working together and dating, they can "reveal" the protection as being with each other, get married and then have a perfect excuse for not cohabiting continuously. I doubt many in the House know of Thomas' solution with Justine so it won't be odd to be together rarely and make a show of tragic star crossed love blooming in times of turmoil and kept apart by the White Court curse.
Given that justification, they can stay married but be separate.
Unlikely. It looks like a whamp's first method of overcoming protection. Remember Madeleine in Turn Coat? She taunted Justine by saying that she'll bring a "handsome young buck" to her room, whisper desire in her ear until she's "begging to be taken", thus overcoming the protection to allow Madeleine to feed.
Note that Madeleine is not the brightest whamp ever born.
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Unlikely. It looks like a whamp's first method of overcoming protection. Remember Madeleine in Turn Coat? She taunted Justine by saying that she'll bring a "handsome young buck" to her room, whisper desire in her ear until she's "begging to be taken", thus overcoming the protection to allow Madeleine to feed.
Note that Madeleine is not the brightest whamp ever born.
The Raith’s breed for beauty, not brains, so why on Earth Harry?
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Harry is good looking enough. And Papa Raith, Lara and Thomas have brains. Also, Maggie LeFay, who Raith wanted. I do not think they disregard brains. But besides that, the reason for anyone wanting Harry is almost always the same. Power.
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I wonder is this is a proscription of the White God to protect human bodily autonomy, free will and to push mankind to advance medical technology? The exceptions are very limited, and this is something oft stated - medical technology is about as good as magic these days.
We saw TWG give Michael the power to heal Harry's mental block - likely because Mab, a supernatural, imposed it with likely no warning. Uriel doesn't heal Harry because he tried to climb up a ladder against building on fire and fell. He made choices there.
Even the Apostles did some healing in The Bible. Vanilla humans.
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The Raith’s breed for beauty, not brains, so why on Earth Harry?
Back in the day, there were many sailing ships with graceful lines. But some had ugly cannons to defend themselves. Harry is a cannon, and often a loose one. But they have uses.
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I note that Uriel didn't give Harry his Grace. I infer that he wouldn't, not that he couldn't.
Actually we do not know that he wouldn't if the situation was dire enough. Lending his Grace is something archangels don't do, and Michael was a pretty safe bet, but even in his case there was some risk, because anyone can fall victim to temptation. Michael's behavior was close to Christ like during the forty days in the desert. In Harry's case, though not lending his Grace to him, Uriel did bend the rules a bit, that is why he is still alive. A loop hole was looked for, found, and Harry was allowed to come back.
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Back in the day, there were many sailing ships with graceful lines. But some had ugly cannons to defend themselves. Harry is a cannon, and often a loose one. But they have uses.
Is that canon?
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:D I was thinking the same.
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Is that canon?
Just taking a shot....
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Back in the day, there were many sailing ships with graceful lines. But some had ugly cannons to defend themselves. Harry is a cannon, and often a loose one. But they have uses.
Trust me, the last thing you want on a rolling sailing ship is a loose cannon... ::)
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...
"The ship was on fire, and it wasn't my fault."
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Trust me, the last thing you want on a rolling sailing ship is a loose cannon... ::)
Oh, yes, i read "Veeck as in Wreck"!
(a baseball team owner, serving as a Marine in WWII, had a recoiling artillery piece crush his leg, eventually requiring amputation)