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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on July 13, 2022, 10:51:15 PM
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Why is it that Harry -- the Warden of Demonreach, owner of the Ways of LeFey -- keeps taking a stupid *BOAT* to & from the island??!?
Wizards mostly seem to get there via Ways... except, for some reason, Harry Dresden(?!). I mean... we do recall him first getting his mother's gemstone, and pre-scouting the Ramp storage-facility in Nevada. 15 minutes each way. Maybe the Ways to Demonreach are less-convenient. Half an hour? An hour? Nah, an hour seems excessive.
Yet Harry keeps taking a multi-hour boat trip.
I find this very odd indeed.
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Because Butcher is lazy. It pauses the action and gives him a chance to show his skills with dialog.
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The Way might not be particularly pleasant, given the way the Never Never's topography parallels the Prime Material Planes.
On the other hand, Harry has not even THOUGHT about his Mother's stone since Changes. This makes me wonder whether Mab has done some redecorating inside Harry's head again.
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I point out that when the SC went to the island, Eb, Joe, and Mai arrived by boat as well. Recall that Jim also said places near nasty places in RL tend to be linked to nasty places in NeverNever. So what does DEMONREACH link to? Margaret knew more Ways than anyone - doesn't mean she knew them all. Might not know Rashid's. Or... wasn't there word he walked across the Moon a short distance for one? maybe that is why Harry can't do it? And Peabody traveled them with someone. NN creatures might be leery of attacking his companion, but not afraid of Harry. Cowl? a Walker?
Maybe Harry sees the trip as a way of prepping himself for whatever comes next - shift from Real World to island thinking. And it shouldn't take THAT long - while we don't know where the island is (there are no islands in southern Lake Michigan - that we know of) the lake is only about 45 miles across by Chicago. I'm a little surprised Thomas doesn't have a nicer boat, but maybe he figures like most Big Brothers, if I get something nice, my little brother is likely going to break it. (should have been able to find an old diesel engine and slap that in, give it some pep when needed)
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Why is it that Harry -- the Warden of Demonreach, owner of the Ways of LeFey -- keeps taking a stupid *BOAT* to & from the island??!?
Wizards mostly seem to get there via Ways... except, for some reason, Harry Dresden(?!). I mean... we do recall him first getting his mother's gemstone, and pre-scouting the Ramp storage-facility in Nevada. 15 minutes each way. Maybe the Ways to Demonreach are less-convenient. Half an hour? An hour? Nah, an hour seems excessive.
Yet Harry keeps taking a multi-hour boat trip.
I find this very odd indeed.
Do they mostly uses Ways though? I don't recall them doing so in the books.
With allowances for OG Merlin, the only times we have seen someone reach Demonreach through a Way were in TC. That was Rashiid for one and Peabody+his ally second.
Every other visitor has used mundane or direct methods even counting Harry and Murphy's "bike ride".
Nic and crew in SF used boats while Gard came for Marcone in a helicopter. In TC, Shagnasty swam carrying Thomas, the Senior Council rented a boat, Lara used helicopters and Binder/Madeleine used Jet-skis. In CD, the Nemesis assault force used barges and tugs, the Summer and Winter forces shapeshifted and flew in, Fix used a hang glider and Mab is summoned. And finally in SG, Mab uses a boat.
So we have one instance of dramatic reveal for the purpose of exposition(Rashiid) and another of the Bad Guys using secret knowledge(Peabody+) and no other known instances.
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So we have one instance of dramatic reveal for the purpose of exposition(Rashiid) and another of the Bad Guys using secret knowledge(Peabody+) and no other known instances.
I don't know if it is so much secret ways, but the ways that exist are very dangerous. If Rashid knows a way through the Nevernever, why didn't he share that with his fellow Senior Council members? Did Peabody use the same way as Rashid? I'd say that perhaps the Senior Council knows of the way also but didn't want to take the risk.
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I don't know if it is so much secret ways, but the ways that exist are very dangerous. If Rashid knows a way through the Nevernever, why didn't he share that with his fellow Senior Council members? Did Peabody use the same way as Rashid? I'd say that perhaps the Senior Council knows of the way also but didn't want to take the risk.
Rashid, quite reasonably does not trust his fellow Senior Council Members, and it might not be his secret to reveal. If the Way is controlled by Mab as I speculate, she has likely placed a geas on Rashid (with his consent) not to reveal this to other than a new Warden. Peabody’s ink wouldn’t have worked on that, and if she did the same to the Warden before Harry, who I posit was Fortier, then it wouldn’t work on him either, at least in this regard, forcing his murder once the link is confirmed, Maeve is nemfected and access is granted. One could guess that Arctis Tor backs onto Demonreach, but one would need a scouting party to confirm this. It would be embarrassing if instead it came out at somewhere like Pontiac in Chicago instead.
As pointed out, Mab has no compunction about redecorating mortals minds, and she has the power to back it up. She always has her colour charts to hand when she meets with Harry.
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I don't know if it is so much secret ways, but the ways that exist are very dangerous. If Rashid knows a way through the Nevernever, why didn't he share that with his fellow Senior Council members? Did Peabody use the same way as Rashid? I'd say that perhaps the Senior Council knows of the way also but didn't want to take the risk.
The wizards only trust each other so much. I don't think Rashid uses the one ON the island, He seems to be very reluctant to upset Alfred (good move, Rashid!). Did Harry rebuild the Whassup Dock right over the old one? Could someone have BUILT a Way just above the old dock, possibly to get to the island "politely" - maybe talking as they get off the dock to say hi or ask permission?
Peabody may be using an unknown Way, or it might be a hazardous path, but his companion is that kinda powerful? (If Eb won't take it, I doubt Cowl would. But a Walker could)
Now a question - I assume Alfred could tell Harry WHERE the other Way is - and if there are any others. Would he have any perception of where they are linked TO in Never Never? Might tell us something about the opponent.
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First the island and the prison aren't the same thing. You go through a door to get into the prison from the island. From the text you can make some assumptions.
Mab has a high degree of trust from Alfred or Alfred is powerful enough to not fear Mab being inside the gates. The second is supported by Mab not touching the island until invited by Harry.Mab made a low, disgusted sound and turned to face me. “I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?” “Yes,” I said. “Yes, you do.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 501). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The inmates do not get keys to the asylum. Neither Maeve or Lily understood the hazard that they were in in Cold Days.Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 501). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
By implication they were a moment away from a padded cell in the prison, which would cause all kinds of problems of balance in the Courts. Following that reasoning, giving Mab access, but with her afraid to use it, makes the idea of a Portal in the garden dubious. This is reinforced considering the portal opening would open both ways. Mab could have a Portal placed in the Garden, but why risk an attack through that Portal?
Rashid is the international man of mystery who goes where he wants to go, when he wants to go there. My money is on Rashid being able to create Portals anywhere, at will.
Final note. Summer Knight establishes the rule for Mab controlling mortals. She can't unless they are linked to the the Courts. See the dialog where she has Harry stab himself with a knife.
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I doubt seriously that Mab has access, she wasn't just being polite when she asked Harry if she could bury the Ladies on the island. That is an acknowledgement that the island is his realm now. Also the fact when Harry threatened her by saying if she didn't answer his questions he'd have Alfred take her below. She turned pale, he can in effect do that.
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I doubt seriously that Mab has access, she wasn't just being polite when she asked Harry if she could bury the Ladies on the island. That is an acknowledgement that the island is his realm now. Also the fact when Harry threatened her by saying if she didn't answer his questions he'd have Alfred take her below. She turned pale, he can in effect do that.
the Winter Queen has power, but Alfred put ETHNIU on ice, so to speak.... I think Mother Winter could mouth off, but not below that.
What is the real difference between opening a portal and a Way? Is a Way a stable wormhole of sorts? You already KNOW the two ends?
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Rashid is the international man of mystery who goes where he wants to go, when he wants to go there. My money is on Rashid being able to create Portals anywhere, at will.
He's not making one on Demonreach, for fear of becoming an International Puddle of What's That?. He and Big Al aren't chums.
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the Winter Queen has power, but Alfred put ETHNIU on ice, so to speak.... I think Mother Winter could mouth off, but not below that.
What is the real difference between opening a portal and a Way? Is a Way a stable wormhole of sorts? You already KNOW the two ends?
A portal is a deliberate thinning of reality between the mortal world and the Never Never, a way is a route between portals in the NeverNever which is not congruous in distance or time to the equivalent points in the mortal world.
My guess is that Rashid doesn’t have the power to make a portal to anywhere he wishes, he more likely has an extraordinarily well developed sense of where such a portal will come out in either the mortal world or Never Never. So he might sense that opening a portal in Mab’s Ice Dungeon opens out into the prison itself, but that a corridor or antechamber near to it opens up on the island itself.
Margaret also must have had a similar well developed sense, especially for her youth. It’s like a sense of direction.
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I described what he does. If he needs Harry then he always finds him. No matter where he is.
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I described what he does. If he needs Harry then he always finds him. No matter where he is.
He was Margaret's friend. He put a tracer on her amulet, and now Harry has it. Tracks like the Summer Pin....
(KIDDING!!!!)
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The Gatekeeper has shown he has a massive degree of Foresight, far more than the ordinary wizard, that’s how he turns up at the appropriate time.
It’s never been about where Harry is, it’s when Harry is.the Gatekeeper travelling through the NeverNever can arrive before he even left.
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The Gatekeeper has shown he has a massive degree of Foresight, far more than the ordinary wizard, that’s how he turns up at the appropriate time.
It’s never been about where Harry is, it’s when Harry is.the Gatekeeper travelling through the NeverNever can arrive before he even left.
That's part of the function of his eye I believe, and I think of anyone, Rashid understands the importance of Harry. Thus all through the series more than anyone else he seems to be there to show up at the right time, to test him when need be, give advice, and to save and protect as well.
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All wizards develop Foresight to some degree, Demonreach felt familiar to Harry when he first went there, younger Wizards sometimes mix up Foresight with anticipation feeling that which isn’t there.
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All wizards develop Foresight to some degree, Demonreach felt familiar to Harry when he first went there, younger Wizards sometimes mix up Foresight with anticipation feeling that which isn’t there.
They do, but reread the scene in Turn Coat where Rashid meets them on What's Up Dock, he uses his eye to consider the future before and after Harry tells him he has bound himself to the island.
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I don't remember in which book it's mentioned, but it basically boils down to someone telling Harry to NOT go into the NeverNever on the Island.
I think it was a villain, actually, taunting Harry about how he had no way to escape. Maybe Nicky-Nick & The Nickleheads?
Something I vaguely remember as 'I know what lives there. You're better off letting me cut your throat.'
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I don't remember in which book it's mentioned, but it basically boils down to someone telling Harry to NOT go into the NeverNever on the Island.
I think it was a villain, actually, taunting Harry about how he had no way to escape. Maybe Nicky-Nick & The Nickleheads?
Something I vaguely remember as 'I know what lives there. You're better off letting me cut your throat.'
Nicodemus in Small Favor.The Gatekeeper has shown he has a massive degree of Foresight, far more than the ordinary wizard, that’s how he turns up at the appropriate time.
It’s never been about where Harry is, it’s when Harry is.the Gatekeeper travelling through the NeverNever can arrive before he even left.
Rashid has the eye linked to the Outer Gates. The reveal is in Cold Days.“I don’t recommend making a regular practice of it,” he continued. “It’s an art, not a skill, and it takes time. Time, or a bit of questionable attention from the Fates and a ridiculously enormous tool.” He tapped a finger against his false eye. I blinked, even though he didn’t, and looked up at the massive gates stretching overhead. “Hell’s bells. The gates . . . they’re . . . some kind of spiritual CAT scanner?”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 349). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I highlighted the word Fates since the capitalization indicates he is talking about The Fates, one of whom Harry names when he summons Mother Winter. They are kinda the sonic screwdriver of the Dresden Files. They control the fate of men, and watch them. Mother Winter, Mother Summer and something else. Mab has tapped this capacity in the books, most notably when she shows Harry a snow scene of Marcone's kidnapping. It's the basis for the plot of Small Favor as well, when Gard tells Marcone there would be consequences for saving Harry in Dead Beat.
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I don't think Mother Summer and Winter are Fates. The Fates were not seasonal personifications. That was their full time job
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I don't think Mother Summer and Winter are Fates. The Fates were not seasonal personifications. That was their full time job
Well, we know The Ladies, Queens, and Mothers of BOTH courts are also Hecate, which is not bound to either court.
This is pointed out in Skin Game when Dresden sees a statue of Hecate, and likens it to all 3 Queens from BOTH courts (Was, Is, & Will Be)
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“Ancient crone, harbinger!” I began, then raised my voice, louder. “Longest shadow! Darkest dream! She of the endless hunger, the iron teeth, the merciless jaws!” I poured more of my wind and my will into the words, and the inside of my grave rang with the sheer volume. “I am Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and I needs must speak with thee! Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 319). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Get your Wikipedia on for the terms I have put in bold. Athropos and Skuld in particular. Butcher misspells Atropos.
Just for fun, and if you like Small Favor, here is the foreshadowing for it in Dead Beat."This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny(read that as Titania)?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."
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I don't remember in which book it's mentioned, but it basically boils down to someone telling Harry to NOT go into the NeverNever on the Island.
I think it was a villain, actually, taunting Harry about how he had no way to escape. Maybe Nicky-Nick & The Nickleheads?
Something I vaguely remember as 'I know what lives there. You're better off letting me cut your throat.'
Definitely Mab then, Harry was still avoiding being the Winter Knight at that point, which was probably common knowledge at this point, and if the Ice Garden, then that’s where Lloyd Slate was kept, Harry’s predecessor, whom Harry’s slit the throat of. Nicky would easily guess that would be required of Harry, and knew Harry would rather slit his own throat (or as actually happened hire a sniper) than be Winter Knight and Kill an innocent human (although Lloyd Slate v Maggie, foregone contest)
A great find adding to my theory, that Demonreach comes out at Arctis Tor.
Nicky knows where it comes out and doesn’t dare use it himself. Not without using up his precious favour to Mab, perhaps and it would be a grievous insult to Winter to arrive at Arctis Tor without invitation, no Guest Right would apply and Nicky most likely would be next to Lea and Lloyd if he tried it.
Harry as Winter Knight has a right as a senior Vassal to enter Arctis Tor unless forbid like Nameless who is bound by Winter Law and can’t even try.
The Mothers are Mantles and are artificial constructs apart from the person or being they were. No doubt Hecate and the Fates poured all or part of their power into the Mantles, the beings may have retired like a certain bartender, living in the Mortal World, powered down, at a power level much less than the Queens. We know they weren’t Queens or Ladies in the last millenia. The other option was to embrace the Mother Mantle but live permanently in the Never Never, to prevent reality breaking in line with my theory of the White Gods Proscription.
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Definitely Mab then, Harry was still avoiding being the Winter Knight at that point, which was probably common knowledge at this point, and if the Ice Garden, then that’s where Lloyd Slate was kept, Harry’s predecessor, whom Harry’s slit the throat of. Nicky would easily guess that would be required of Harry, and knew Harry would rather slit his own throat (or as actually happened hire a sniper) than be Winter Knight and Kill an innocent human (although Lloyd Slate v Maggie, foregone contest)
I wouldn't really call Slate an innocent, and after Mab's treatment of him, death was a mercy.
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Definitely Mab then, Harry was still avoiding being the Winter Knight at that point, which was probably common knowledge at this point, and if the Ice Garden, then that’s where Lloyd Slate was kept, Harry’s predecessor, whom Harry’s slit the throat of. Nicky would easily guess that would be required of Harry, and knew Harry would rather slit his own throat (or as actually happened hire a sniper) than be Winter Knight and Kill an innocent human (although Lloyd Slate v Maggie, foregone contest)
A great find adding to my theory, that Demonreach comes out at Arctis Tor.
Nicky knows where it comes out and doesn’t dare use it himself. Not without using up his precious favour to Mab, perhaps and it would be a grievous insult to Winter to arrive at Arctis Tor without invitation, no Guest Right would apply and Nicky most likely would be next to Lea and Lloyd if he tried it.
Harry as Winter Knight has a right as a senior Vassal to enter Arctis Tor unless forbid like Nameless who is bound by Winter Law and can’t even try.
The Mothers are Mantles and are artificial constructs apart from the person or being they were. No doubt Hecate and the Fates poured all or part of their power into the Mantles, the beings may have retired like a certain bartender, living in the Mortal World, powered down, at a power level much less than the Queens. We know they weren’t Queens or Ladies in the last millenia. The other option was to embrace the Mother Mantle but live permanently in the Never Never, to prevent reality breaking in line with my theory of the White Gods Proscription.
How is it definitely Mab? It would make sense for it to back onto one of the greatest supernatural prisons that are out there in the NeverNever and Winter is pretty far down that list. I mean Demonreach holds things as strong or stronger than Mab. You'd think the NeverNever analog would be one of the mythological hells.
Mab has one ice garden. I'm pretty sure Hades, Hela and Lucifer could fit it into a tiny wing of their realms without any trouble. Not to mention the Hindu, Sumerian, Chinese and Egyptian pantheons. Just staying regional, there are things far worse than Nagloshi in Amerind religion, especially if you include the Aleuts. Popping thru a Way and disturbing say Yamata no Orochi or Tiamat wouldn't rank very high as a survivable experience either.
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“Prison” is the operative word, not Hell or any of its equivalents if Demonreach was built with such care then that care extends to the NeverNever that Mab and the Merlin personally knew each other was established in Battle Ground, it makes sense therefore that they worked on each end of the link to make sure they matched up, accidentally linking to Hell or somewhere else without an guardian entity would be a major flaw, and it is clear Mab did this with Hade Vault.
As far as we are aware nothing has ever escaped Demonreach, HadesRealm for example has a revolving door, according to mythology, so it couldn’t be a match.
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Why would Merlin have worked together with Mab to create Demonreach and the island not show that to Bob and Harry in CD? Would they be working together at all? Ethniu taunts Mab about her bad breakup with Merlin and that's all we know from the books, that they had a falling out before she became Mab and could have assisted him.
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Why would Merlin have worked together with Mab to create Demonreach and the island not show that to Bob and Harry in CD? Would they be working together at all? Ethniu taunts Mab about her bad breakup with Merlin and that's all we know from the books, that they had a falling out before she became Mab and could have assisted him.
Because they are all afraid of creating a paradox.
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The island literally saved Mab, without it Harry would have lost and Mab a pincushion of Steel rebar waiting for the Eye to recharge again.
The Merlin likely foresaw the necessity. It’s clear Mab, Uriel, Odin and Hades have been working together for some time. Their little Cabal obviously includes the Gatekeeper and he likely took over from the Original Merlin, when he died on the cabal. If you take the Arthurian era as 4AD and the Merlin lived a couple of centuries after that then the chances of an overlap are quite high.
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The island literally saved Mab, without it Harry would have lost and Mab a pincushion of Steel rebar waiting for the Eye to recharge again.
The Merlin likely foresaw the necessity. It’s clear Mab, Uriel, Odin and Hades have been working together for some time. Their little Cabal obviously includes the Gatekeeper and he likely took over from the Original Merlin, when he died on the cabal. If you take the Arthurian era as 4AD and the Merlin lived a couple of centuries after that then the chances of an overlap are quite high.
What book did you read that contained that storyline?
In BG, Harry protects Mab after the she is struck by the rebar from a group of Formor sorcerers\wizards. Butters pulls out the rebar and Mab gets up and confronts Ethniu. Mab then takes the shot from the Eye and is carried to safety by her people.
The other speculation may be true but is unsupported by the written record.
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I presume Ethnui after killing Harry and recovering the Eye, would have pinned Mab to the ground with rebar, and at her most defenceless have blasted her point blank with the Eye,
Why how would you kill Mab?
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Ok, so you made it all up.
Speculation is fine. We all have our fanfic ideas but you argue using yours as if that were what Jim wrote. It's difficult to have a reasonable discussion when both parties are not using the same starting point.
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... Why how would you kill Mab?
Convince Harry that it needs to be done.
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Certainly, that would work the problem for Harry is that Molly becomes Queen. Mab in setting Molly as a Winter Lady candidate no doubt had this in mind, creating a massive disincentive for Harry to move against her and to protect her when vulnerable. Typical sneaky Mab.
That would need a real good argument to convince Harry. Molly could then have sex with Harry, so Molly may be up for it .
From what we saw in Peace Talks the only way to separate Molly from the Mantle may be to intervene before Molly become Lady in the first place, which means Harry has to Time travel back to Cold Days and save Lily, so Sarissa becomes the Winter Lady, but this would create a new timeline and not save Molly in the original timeline, only create a non-Winter Lady Molly alongside the Winter Ladt Molly in a different universe, Harry hasn’t save anyone.
Otherwise only perhaps Uriel has the power to reconstruct the original Molly, just before the Mantle because as a full intellectus he would have full knowledge of Molly mind, body and soul just before she received the Mantle and re-create her like a Star Trek Transporter rematerialising from an older pattern Even Mab, capable of teleportation seems only able to reconstruct things as they are, not as they were. In that scenario Harry removes the Mantle (I think he has figured out how to safely remove his, muting it by going past a threshold uninvited and then a summoning circle crossing the boundary, but the likely result an angry Mab slapping the Mantle back on him) and has Uriel bring Molly back to pre Cold Days. She would lose all the memories of being Winter Lady.
But as uriel often says he can do bugger all due to free will. The other side would need to do something huge for him to intervene to that extent.
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Getting the thread back on track instead of wild guessing that has 0 facts to back it up made by someone who seems hellbent on derailing every thread they post in:
It really boils down to the fact that somethings exists on the NeverNever side that Harry has been told will Kill Him Horribly.
We don't know much about Demonreach except that it's a prison for the worst of the worst. And that means the NeverNever side also has to be pretty darn dark and dangerous.
- This is not acceptable conduct. If you have an issue with another poster, use the report button. While there are not so many of us Moderators around anymore we can and will get to these things eventually. This forum is to be enjoyed by all, and we have a VERY clear list of rules and policies to help ensure that. Do not bait other users, do not troll them or otherwise belittle them. Because I don't have a lot of time these days, next offence wins you a free 3 week vacation from the boards.
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Getting the thread back on track instead of wild guessing that has 0 facts to back it up made by someone who seems hellbent on derailing every thread they post in:
It really boils down to the fact that somethings exists on the NeverNever side that Harry has been told will Kill Him Horribly.
We don't know much about Demonreach except that it's a prison for the worst of the worst. And that means the NeverNever side also has to be pretty darn dark and dangerous.
He's speculating. That's perfectly acceptable for a discussion board of a fantasy series. Long as he's not misquoting the actual text, I see no issue.
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He's speculating. That's perfectly acceptable for a discussion board of a fantasy series. Long as he's not misquoting the actual text, I see no issue.
Sorry. He did the same thing in my thread, where he made random guesses out of far left field with 0 evidence, then admitted he makes baseless guesses, and claimed I was a troll for poking holes in his 'theories' when I said his posts sounded troll-like to me.
- Edit this post to fit within forum rules i.e. not so passive aggressive.
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Sorry. He did the same thing in my thread, where he made random guesses out of far left field with 0 evidence, then admitted he makes baseless guesses, and claimed I was a troll for poking holes in his 'theories' when I said his posts sounded troll-like to me.
I read that too. Didn't see anything out of line there, either. My 2 cents
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Sorry. He did the same thing in my thread, where he made random guesses out of far left field with 0 evidence, then admitted he makes baseless guesses, and claimed I was a troll for poking holes in his 'theories' when I said his posts sounded troll-like to me.
Actually I didn’t admit to making “baseless guesses” I stated that I theorise and speculate based upon the books, mythology, WOJ, science, and what Jim has read/researched. Please do not try to misrepresent me again. Most members of this forum make such speculation. For example in a recorded interview just after Peace Talks Jim was asked “what is the first thing Harry is going to buy with the diamonds” and he joked “ a basketball hoop for the main hall” from that and Peace Talks I correctly posited that Harry would get the Castle as his home. There were naysayers who said I was making too much of a casual comment, that it was referring to the Swartalves Appartment, or Demonreach. Some thought I was right. Turns out I was right, and proved so by Battle Ground.
Trolling isn’t trying to attack my theories, I don’t care about that because it can give rise to new info being brought to my attention or generate new thought, and that is all good. I thank people when they bring me a new datum which supports or disproves a point. It’s trying to attack me personally by calling me a troll, which is of course the go to move of a genuine troll. The fact that you keep trying to force me to defend myself personally is the problem, and to try to en-list others in your campaign. You simply do not seem to be content with ignoring my posts, or try to disprove them and you attack the poster, and seek to encourage others to do the same.
We all have our theories and all are equally valid until proved to be demonstrably wrong by new information, but for any one of us to say ‘mine are valid but yours are baseless guesses’ in the absence of such new information is more than impolite.
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Well, we know The Ladies, Queens, and Mothers of BOTH courts are also Hecate, which is not bound to either court.
This is pointed out in Skin Game when Dresden sees a statue of Hecate, and likens it to all 3 Queens from BOTH courts (Was, Is, & Will Be)
and Hecate is not a Fate. That's Clothos, Atropos, and Lachesis
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It really boils down to the fact that somethings exists on the NeverNever side that Harry has been told will Kill Him Horribly.
We don't know much about Demonreach except that it's a prison for the worst of the worst. And that means the NeverNever side also has to be pretty darn dark and dangerous.
As opposed to Kill Him Nicely?
It might be they fear something worse than death - corruption. The likes of Uriel might tell him dying "doing the Right Thing" is an honorable death far better than losing his soul to darkness.
Maybe the other end is not in Faerie. Could it be beyond the Gates?
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Beyond the Gates is outside the NeverNever, so probably no unless we have been misled as to what is Outside.
Killing Harry nicely would be to supply him with unlimited Burger King and Cokes until he dies from heart disease and or diabetes. If corporate Mascots have been around long enough, feeding on enough childrens belief then like the monster in Day One they exist and may have their own desmesnes within the NeverNever. Harry had better be careful he doesn’t fall into the clutches of The Burger King.
The option would seem to be an escape proof prison in the NeverNever. Tartarus is one option, the prison of the Titans, ironic now that Demonreach inprisons a Titan now. However some myths have Hercules breaking out Prometheus and of Saturn escaping, rendering Tartarus not escape proof, so if there is another escape proof prison in the NeverNever than that would be the preferred link to Demonreach. That’s why I think it’s Mab’s Ice Garden, no one has escaped from there. The break out of Lea failed, ironically as did the attempt to breach Demonreach
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There's a novel thought.
Assume you are right. Breaking Lea out of Arctis Tor might allow forging a new vonnection to Demonrreach somewhere else.
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and Hecate is not a Fate. That's Clothos, Atropos, and Lachesis
In Skin Game in the vault Ascher sees the statues and names them as Hecate. Harry sees them and names them as the six Faerie Queens. However in Cold Days when he summons Mother Winter he uses Atropos. Me thinks that Butcher is talking out of both sides of his mouth. In Summer Knight he shows us Atropos shears which she uses to cut the thread of the unraveling. And to put the icing on this mess of a cake, Butcher foreshadows the attack on Marcone in Small Favor by implying that Titania is one on the Fates. Carry on.
@Conspiracy Theorist
It would be nice if you could support the idea that the attack on Arctis Tor was a prison breakout. The text doesn't really seem to. No single Denarian could challenge Mab at her Wellspring. That is established by Mab's performance at the battle of Chicago. And as Butcher points out in a WOJ Mab could have had everyone in Winter at the fortress on the jump, just as Harry hitting the Wellspring with fire did. Also from Cold Days if Mab wanted a portal at her Wellspring she could arrange it, since she locked down Faerie and created a Portal just for Harry with no apparent effort.
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It wasn’t just a single Denarian at Arctis Tor it was a party including a Denarian which Following The Law may have included help from Nameless to the extent he could do this.
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Well if Butcher wants to rewrite canon he can. However that still doesn't indicate that the purpose was to rescue Lea. This is one of Butcher's masterpieces or messes depending on how you feel about it. Incoming WOJ.
Another mild correction: who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived? At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress–but you didn’t see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya. :) Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn’t infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)
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The purpose was ostensibly not to rescue Lea but Nemesis within Lea. There may have been other purposes, but I am not sure Mab didn’t allow it to a point to flush out Nameless, which wouldn’t affect any hypothetical link to Demonreach as the Warden was allowing this, as with Hades Vault.
We see the story from Harry’s view and he is an unreliable narrator who only sees part of the picture, Mab definitely sees more, but we see nothing from her POV. Skin Game was a revelation because we got to see more of her larger plan and PT/BG just confirmed this, providing a modus operandi, we have to therefore reconsider what Harry has seen in the past in light of that. It’s not a recon more of a secret history, Jim has only shown us what he wanted to show us, but certain things have been there all along and not added subsequently.
Arctis Tor may be very different to what Harry thought it was. The Law indicates that. Harry and his party may have been manipulated to provide a valid reason to watching third parties including Nameless to recall Winters forces. The Phobophages were after all part of Winter and subject to Mab’s control. Part may also to give Harry certain information i.e. Hellfire being used to pass onto Nick, if you think about Winters involvement in SF.
Mab is not arbitrary and does nothing without a reason. She plans well ahead and thinks nothing of exposing a flank to draw an enemy out or using mortals like Molly or Harry in her schemes, even if it might be fatal to them. She will sacrifice her own children for her schemes.
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Putting my moderator hat on here *places dusty, worn, old hat wearily on head*. If we cannot treat each other respectfully here, there is really no point of having these boards. There are multiple other forums such as FB and Reddit that allow for Jim Butcher's Dresden Files to be discussed. These boards are the oldest of the various forums, and were set up to discuss and show love and appreciation for Jim Butcher's works. And while there have been dark days in the past long before my time (although I have seen my share) where the forum became a furious battle ground of ideas that often resulted in toxic arguments and multiple (sometimes permanent) bans, by and large this forum has been a place of joy and excitement on the whole.
But it's fairly quiet these days as many OG members have left, and many others have migrated to newer forums. We are no longer the destination of the majority of Jim Butcher fans.
All we have is each other. There are not many moderators available anymore and of those remaining ALL of us are time poor. So it is up to all of you to uphold the values of this place. Call out bad behaviors and hold each other to account. Myself and the other mods will do our best to help when we can, but ultimately it is up to all of you to make this place somewhere you want to be. By and large I'd say the community does a pretty good job of that.
So I will be crystal clear. Absolutely no trolling, baiting or bullying. Otherwise the Blackstaff comes out and bans will follow. Stick to the forum precepts and rules.
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... It really boils down to the fact that somethings exists on the NeverNever side that Harry has been told will Kill Him Horribly ...
It's worth noting, however: while we know the Nevernever side of any given place has some sorts of similarities to the mundane side (and therefore will be (at minimum) an ominous and dangerous place ...
Recall the source of that info: Nicodemus & Anduriel. They won't lie when lying can weaken their position (i.e. the lie is likely to be discovered, and thus discredit them); but if they see more advantage than disadvantage, deception is the lingua franca of Hell.
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Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.
Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.
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Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.
Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.
Mab is only Harry's worst nightmare because of his fear of her, he should be afraid, but not all of his fear is rational. Nic is playing off that fear. Nor logically does Mab want to take away Harry's self control so he'd become Winter Knight, basically that was her problem with Slate, no self control. She is patient, she knows that eventually something will come up and Harry will run out of options, which it eventually did in Changes. Oh and for my money, a lie is a lie and sometimes a so called "half-truth" is the worst lie of all.
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In Skin Game in the vault Ascher sees the statues and names them as Hecate ...
That may have been Ascher's ID; or it may have been what Lasciel wanted her so say to Harry.
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That may have been Ascher's ID; or it may have been what Lasciel wanted her so say to Harry.
It's all speculative until Butcher gets to the point. It could be read as each person seeing what they expect to see. I have no idea.
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Michael comments one of them looks like Molly…..
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Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare, she wants to take away his self control to become winter Knight. Nick on the other hand knows she is the Defender of the Outer Gates, and horrible to him. Nick was telling the truth from both parties point of view but not objectively.
Why tell a lie when the partial truth is perfectly acceptable.
Mab doesn't really want to take away all of Harry's self control. A thinking Knight is more dangerous than a bloodthirsty sadistic idiot. And (as I actually said just yesterday to a Maid of Honor who absolutely ROASTED the groom in her toast and claimed she held back) a rapier is more elegant than a bludgeon. The Fae like to style a bit.
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What Harry knew of Mab at the time terrified him, what he now knows still terrifies him but in a different way.
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Mab is something horrible, at that point in the narrative she is Harry’s worst nightmare ...
I think the Denarians are an even-worse nightmare for him, honestly.