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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 05, 2022, 01:32:16 AM

Title: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 05, 2022, 01:32:16 AM
The Law, just finished the first read through. It is set a month and four months after Battle Ground, so still not further in the time-line than Christmas Eve/The Good People

My theories about Bob and the internet appear to be correct, he can indeed access it and mobile phones in the Castle and appears to be streaming movies for Harry.

One of my theories about the Unseelie Accords was also bang on the money, Mab doesn’t care about Harry unless it also involves an insult to Winter, in this case damage to the company car. Then yes she gets involved.

Some of my speculation confirming Paranoid Gary is also correct, and he now appears to be working with Harry, but especially Bob.



Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Regenbogen on July 05, 2022, 05:18:30 AM
Me too.  ;D

There is also mentioned that apparently the castle needs some kind of spirit to fully function. This seems to be before Bob was referred to as "the Castle", before " Little Things".

LOL I laughed about Harry's argument
(click to show/hide)
Also about his forced politeness towards Marcone.

It seems that Will is there not only to help with the refugees and running the castle, but also to keep Harry functioning. Harry seems to kind of "black out" sometimes, even while being occupied with cooking for example, because thoughts about Murphy's moment of death come to him a lot. OK, no wonder, it has been only one month. I'm thinking about Will's "Harry, come back" comment while Harry was trying to fry eggs.

Paranoid Gary was hilarious.


Edit: @ CT: did you start reading at midnight? I just noticed the time stamp. I admit, I would have done that, too, if I had been awake that long, but I fell asleep at 23:30, woke up again at 3 a.m. and decided not to get angry at my inability to sleep on and simply start reading. LOL
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Regenbogen on July 05, 2022, 05:49:58 AM
Sorry about the double post:

I also noticed, that there is no Maggie. Not even in Harry's thoughts. The only sign that there is a child in his life, was his answer to someone saying that people want better lives for their kids and Harry throws in "me too". That's it.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Con on July 05, 2022, 08:46:52 AM
I mean the novella is appropriately named everyone sticking to a convoluted letter of the law interpretation
but I feel like in the end the entire argument was a little moot for most parties

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 05, 2022, 09:44:03 AM
Harry saved the pimp from everyone else, he knew that he could not save him from himself. If his deal with St Louis didn’t kill him he would soon annoy someone else who would.

I suspect Laplanders punishment is a nice meal, a show and a night of romantic woo. Date Night. It would both horrify and demean her in her own eyes, and Nameless knows that he is storing up bad karma with her should she ever break free, but that may be the only way to punish her.

The Law part of the evolution of Harry as a schemer, we saw it first in Skin Game, and again in Battle Ground taking the Castle, here he out schemes Mab, arch schemer himself. Nicodemus, Marcone and now Mab have all been outschemed by Harry.

Harry has quoted Gandal “But it is said: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.”

Harry has always been quick to anger, but he has learn’t subtle.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 05, 2022, 04:29:55 PM
I think Mab was satisfied for the entire incident with Harry's one line.

"Then I'll just learn to play harder."

Harry is just beginning to use his brain along with his Power. If he becomes a smarter thinker and more ruthless, Mab gains exponentially despite the minor time "wasted".
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 05, 2022, 04:49:59 PM
Not more ruthless certainly smarter, he also outsmarted his old master Eb as well in Battle Ground. Eb even comments on it.

The other thing we learn, Harry has new Force Rings and a proper Shield Bracelet, but hardly had to use them, because he used his brain instead. This shows the turnover in the character, his subtle is waxing.

It can take  centuries for a Wizard to achieve subtle, Harry has managed it in a couple of decades, that may be why Mab is actually pleased with him.

It’s interesting that Nameless provides a new link to Kemmler and worked with him, Evil Bob would know this. That is a team -up Harry should fear.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: magnuskn on July 05, 2022, 07:17:18 PM
Well, I guess that's the problem with a novella, you got just so many pages to tell your story and sidetracking eats pages. Hence no Maggie. Which was disappointing, but I presume that she'll get her moments to shine in the upcoming "one year of Dresdens life" novel.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 05, 2022, 07:43:00 PM
No Mouse, but we get introduced to a Basset Hound Peppermint, a friend for Mouse? No Toot so this must be set more than 2 weeks before Little Things. Marcone’s reaction to losing the Castle to Harry strongly suggests he was not responsible for the Boom, especially after a car bomb attempt on the Munstermobile ended badly for him. He never repeats a mistake. The Merlin is even more strongly a candidate for that.

We don’t see the Gargoyles, obviously they are being saved for NEXT BOOK.

I think Nameless and Ms Laplander and Max will likely end up in Goodman Grey’s stories, and The Law is a good way of introducing them to the Dresdenverse. Max I think will be in NEXT BOOK following his invitation to Game Knight (you bet everyone is calling it that behind Harry’s back).
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 05, 2022, 08:36:25 PM

Well, we learned that Marcone may pay off Animal Control to declare Mouse a health hazard.
We learned that Kemmler had something to do with starting both WWI and WWII.
We learned that Harry is grieving heavily and suffering from PTSD flashbacks, but is trying
to carry on instead of curling up in a fetal position feeling sorry for himself.
We learned that while Bob may have access to the internet, his ability to hack into sites to get information is limited, hence he needed help from Paranoid Gary.
Supporting a bunch of homeless families and revamping a large castle is a huge drain on Harry's funds..  In spite of all the diamonds he collected in Skin Game he did a lot of whining about lack of funds.
The explanation they came up with to "explain" what happened during the battle for Chicago backfires sometimes..
Harry accepts seemingly that Murphy's death was an accident.
The courtship of Lara is going to be very complicated.
Harry and Marcone have reluctant respect for one another.  Harry also knows Marcone's weakness and used that to get the information he needed.
Rawlings and some of the police force are still on Harry's side. 

So all and all the first part of the story was a bit slow in my opinion, but got better towards the end.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: heidi_storage on July 06, 2022, 12:19:43 AM
I also noticed, that there is no Maggie. Not even in Harry's thoughts. The only sign that there is a child in his life, was his answer to someone saying that people want better lives for their kids and Harry throws in "me too". That's it.

Harry should never have been made a custodial parent; JB just can't write Harry-as-dad or Maggie well. Children are annoying, inconvenient pains in the rear (I say this as the mother of four sweet, awesome kiddos who are lights of my life), and it is massively difficult to forget about them.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Regenbogen on July 06, 2022, 03:39:51 AM
Harry should never have been made a custodial parent; JB just can't write Harry-as-dad or Maggie well. Children are annoying, inconvenient pains in the rear (I say this as the mother of four sweet, awesome kiddos who are lights of my life), and it is massively difficult to forget about them.
LOL
I completely agree.
I don't think about my kids all day long. It is different, when they are still babies, but at a certain age they become more and more independent and don't need to be cared for all day any more.

I imagine they are difficult to write, but he DID bring her into his life, so there she is. Even if she doesn't life with Harry in the castle yet (maybe she's still at the Carpenters', maybe she's at a boarding school for safety), it just feels weird to me, that after he decided to be there for her, in this story which goes over days (ok, months, but the main action are the first days), there is not even a small reminder of her existence. Like "Maggie doesn't like scrambled eggs" ;) or "after a short trip to see Maggie I went to the lawyer." Except the short "me too".

What I mean is: JB decided Maggie had to be a part of Harry's life, because everything else would be out of character for all characters involved after Changes. So there she is, and can't be ignored or simply written out of the story for convenience. That's not how it works in real life, especially when you are a single parent. She doesn't need to be a constant presence but no mention in a 99 pages story confused me.

As a side note: as mouse isn't there too, he presumably is with her.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: magnuskn on July 06, 2022, 05:54:09 AM
Completely disagree, Harry being a dad has been one of the best things in the last books. I felt the absence of Maggie in this one, but, again, since this is a novella, I presume that the limited page count made Jim focus entirely on the main plot, with absolutely none of the side plots one would expect in a full novel. Hence, none of the side characters who were prominent in the last books popping in to say hello (no Butters, no Mouse, no Michael, no Uriel, no Molly, no Maggie).
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: kel0700 on July 06, 2022, 08:30:45 AM
Quote
I also noticed, that there is no Maggie. Not even in Harry's thoughts. The only sign that there is a child in his life, was his answer to someone saying that people want better lives for their kids and Harry throws in "me too". That's it.

Harry does mention Maggie. He talks about money he's left aside for her and how he has barely enough left to run the castle for 18 months.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2022, 09:50:46 AM
Harry does mention Maggie. He talks about money he's left aside for her and how he has barely enough left to run the castle for 18 months.
Yes, he does, and at that point in time, he is dealing with his grief and injuries, the castle is still
being repaired and remodeled.  So in many ways it would be best if she remain at the Carpenters for the moment.  Notice Mouse isn't at the castle either, he is with her.  Except for Marcone's threat to sic the city health department on him, Mouse isn't mentioned either.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Regenbogen on July 06, 2022, 01:12:57 PM
Harry does mention Maggie. He talks about money he's left aside for her and how he has barely enough left to run the castle for 18 months.
Ah, yes. Thank you. I have missed this, I think. One should not read at 3 a.m. lol.
I also missed the part about Marcone and Mouse. Maybe I should read it again while more awake.  ;D
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2022, 04:24:30 PM
Ah, yes. Thank you. I have missed this, I think. One should not read at 3 a.m. lol.
I also missed the part about Marcone and Mouse. Maybe I should read it again while more awake.  ;D

Well, don't feel too bad, I think the same thing happened to a lot of us. ;)
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Regenbogen on July 06, 2022, 04:40:00 PM
Well, don't feel too bad, I think the same thing happened to a lot of us. ;)
LOL
Yes, nice to know, that I am not the only crazy one to read in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2022, 08:33:14 PM
LOL
Yes, nice to know, that I am not the only crazy one to read in the middle of the night.

Well, on the night of the 4th I waited up until midnight waiting for it to download onto my Kindle.. It didn't until 12:30 a.m.  But I blithely read half of it until 2:00 a.m. and realized that words were running together and I knew that my dogs would enthusiastically wake me sometime between 4:00 and 5:00 am... So I went to bed, should have just stayed up because I had a hard time getting to sleep anyway... Sigh, so I finished it the next morning.. ::)

Oh one more significant fact not mentioned yet and forgotten in my sleepy haze, Thomas is still in his cell on Demonreach.  Currently Harry doesn't have a clue as to how to release him without him dying shortly after.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Ed0517 on July 07, 2022, 05:22:16 AM
Harry does mention Maggie. He talks about money he's left aside for her and how he has barely enough left to run the castle for 18 months.

18 months is fine> He'll be a trophy husband by then, and the little woman can afford it.....
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2022, 09:57:36 AM
18 months is fine> He'll be a trophy husband by then, and the little woman can afford it.....

True.. :o
 :-[ In rereading last night I discovered that it was "pub" not "pup" that Marcone was threatening.
So Mouse is in no danger.. :-[  However one has to wonder why Macone would threaten to close neutral territory as designated by the Accords?  Then again was that Marcone or Namshiel talking?

Another thought, much of the dialogue in those chapters was very much in the manner of both the movie and the book "The Godfather.." 

One more interesting factoid, Mab sent Mr Winter Winter to the mortal world to practice law just after Arctus Tor was attacked.. Me thinks this will be brought up again in a later book.. ::)
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 07, 2022, 10:36:01 AM
The Athame was the source of Nemfection in Winter, the attack was to free the Nemfected Lea. Did she think Nameless or Laplander were potential vectors from Lea? Maeve was the last known Nemfected member of Winter, or that they may me used by Maeve? She had Recap spying on Maeve before her infection.

There is definitely something more going on. Nameless is clearly bound by Winter Law OR is content to give that impression for the moment. Does she think him a sleeper for someone else? The Circle perhaps? Do we have a new candidate for Cowl? Or is he a separate member.

Cowl knew Bob contained the Word of Kemmler, Nameless worked with Kemmler rather than as an Heir so would have known about Bob, and Nameless has a honking great Bear Spirit Skull in his office. Was Justin working for Nameless? As a lawyer he could have made Harry legally disappear with Justin, he could have bound Justin like he did Laplander, or used Laplander to do this for him when Kemmler was finally apprehended. Justin now bound takes Bob and waits for the next Starborn to appear.  This may make the Elaine is Kumori theory much stronger. As a Demi -god, Nameless is much stronger than a wizard but still weaker than Mab. That fits Cowl. The Word would fix this,  powering up Nameless to full godhood and capable of overpowering Mab breaking the link to Winter perhaps? That the Future Winter Knight prevents this is very apt. It parallels Butters own future Knighthood in the same book, whic was deliberately commented upon in Skin Game. Sacrificing the Erl King a Vassal of Mab in the power up and the rest of the Wild Hunt weakens Mab.

This is why the Circle and Outsiders are working together, they both want Mab weakened.

My favourite candidate for Cowl is now Nameless. I need to re-read the Nameless/Harry interactions.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: magnuskn on July 07, 2022, 01:13:35 PM
My favourite candidate for Cowl is now Nameless. I need to re-read the Nameless/Harry interactions.

If he was, he was astoundingly polite to Harry, given the way the two parted the last time.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 07, 2022, 02:38:36 PM
Big clue as regards someone new working with Kemmler who would know about Bob, and a powerful new character both in the same Novella, in what is otherwise an inconsequential case. Is this Jim thumbing his nose at the readers?

You have to wonder what Nameless has been doing since Arctis Tor and why Chicago. He is working for Marcone, but for how long? Nicky targeted Marcone since Small Favour, when Marcone took Namshiel’s coin. As a member of Winter Nameless would have potentially had access from Arctis Tor (via the ice Dungeon Lea was in) to Demonreach through the NeverNever, a route I posit the Gatekeeper used. Exiling him from Arctis Tor blocked him from using that route. Maeve then used it in Turncoat to take Peabody and the Spiders to the Island, and that exposed her to Mab as Nemfected.

I have also posited a Denarian member of the Circle at Arctis Tor, a rogue Nicky doesn’t know about and a hidden faction amongst the Denarians. If that was Namshiel is that a connection? Nameless is the best lawyer in town, so Marcone would hire him and pay top dollar anyhow.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 07, 2022, 06:37:28 PM
... Maeve then used it in Turncoat to take Peabody and the Spiders to the Island, and that exposed her to Mab as Nemfected...
Peabody got himself to Demonreach.  Harry hired Vince to get photographic evidence of it.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 07, 2022, 08:05:15 PM
Oh dear, I have to explain it again. There is a way from Chicago (Pell’s Theatre, Harry used it) to just outside Arctis Tor. Maeve let’s him in the fortress and takes Peabody to the Ice Dungeon and takes him plus Spiders to Demonreach. She brings him back, takes him back to Chicago and he goes back to Edinburgh. He makes his own way to Chicago.

The time dilation of Arctis Tor and the shortcut through the Never Never, means Peabody leaves Edinburgh first, and catches up with the Senior Council on Demonreach. He leaves Demonreach and gets back before the Senior Council.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 07, 2022, 09:09:15 PM
Is there some support for an ice dungeon in Arctis Tor?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2022, 12:13:56 AM
Oh yes, that’s where Lea and others were stashed when Harry and Charity went to rescue Molly.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 08, 2022, 02:21:20 AM
So you think that Maeve could haul a Wizard through to a portal at the Wellspring and that Mab would allow it?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2022, 04:26:44 AM
Not more than once. Which is why Maeve had to use another method of travel in Cold Days, that route was barred to her after that little stunt, and probably confirmed to Mab she had to die.

Mab is very much about giving you enough rope to hang yourself, the Revelation in Battle Ground that the Redcap had been her sleeper agent for decades confirmed this. The attack on Arctis Tor may have been for Lea, but it may have also been a scouting trip for access to Demonreach as well. Nameless being barred left only Maeve to use it, it’s use condemning her to Mab. Remember this is when Molly likely came to her attention as a possible lady,  an alternate, alternate to Maeve.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 08, 2022, 11:06:13 AM
Well, first stating that it's your book when you read it, there is no support directly in the text that indicates there is a portal in Mab's garden.  She has the power to place one where she chooses, which is supported by Cold Days, but Butcher never puts it in the text.

As much fun as it might be to point out that Butcher has slowly but surely been retconning portions of the story to serve some purpose, I won't.  The Redcap as a secret agent being in that particular area.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2022, 12:49:30 PM
Mab certainly does but the Gatekeeper doesn’t. He is almost certainly the only White Council member with access to Arctis Tor, and the only one who used that access to Demonreach.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 08, 2022, 01:29:41 PM
That may well be the case in Butcher's mind, but he hasn't placed it in the text. I could argue that it is Rashid who can control all portals between Faerie and the normal world. But that would be me arguing a case I can't support directly.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: RobReece on July 08, 2022, 01:44:35 PM
1st Question: where is the idea that Rashid has access to Arctis Tor coming from?  I think it's quite a leap from knowing quite a few Ways to having access to Mab's stronghold.

2nd Question: I can understand that Jim likes to keep Harry in a semi-destitute status, even with his stash of diamonds, but what about the half he gave to Karen?  Does he have that or is some relative of hers going to inherit her house and find a sock full of diamonds?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 08, 2022, 02:17:55 PM
Quote
2nd Question: I can understand that Jim likes to keep Harry in a semi-destitute status, even with his stash of diamonds, but what about the half he gave to Karen?  Does he have that or is some relative of hers going to inherit her house and find a sock full of diamonds?

I was wondering the same thing, however she does have relatives, it depends on what her will says.  It might be hard to find if say she kept it in a safety deposit box, the bank may have been destroyed.  Also it isn't that long since she died, and the last thing Harry would be worrying about is if whether or not he inherited anything from her.  Also between her house and the diamonds her estate might need to be probated, that can take a very long time.
Quote
1st Question: where is the idea that Rashid has access to Arctis Tor coming from?  I think it's quite a leap from knowing quite a few Ways to having access to Mab's stronghold.
Given his status with the Winter Court as Gate Keeper, I think access to Arctis Tor wouldn't be a problem for Rashid.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: RobReece on July 08, 2022, 02:31:27 PM
Given his status with the Winter Court as Gate Keeper, I think access to Arctis Tor wouldn't be a problem for Rashid.

Point
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: prince lotore on July 08, 2022, 04:43:39 PM
I'm still wondering why Harry didn't just throw the BMW into his house. Then do it again with every new car until the suit was dropped. He could do it under a veil. After 2 or 3 times he might stop saying hebe gebes
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 08, 2022, 04:44:53 PM
Since this is a work of fiction anything is possible.  But a bag of diamonds hanging out with no indication of how it was obtained would lead the authorities to confiscate them based on the idea that there is no way they could have been legally obtained.  Crooked cop and all that.

Cold Days set the tone for this.  Mab can place a portal at any time, going anywhere, or she can shut down the whole shooting match on a whim. So a better guess is, if you had to make one, that unless Mab needs to have a portal near her Wellspring, there isn't one.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2022, 04:48:11 PM
It became clear when the Gatekeepers role at the Gates was revealed, and his relationship with Winter suddenly snapped into focus. Previously we were given the impression the Gatekeeper was merely a peripatetic Senior Council Member not around most of the time and thought to be travelling. Instead he spends most of his time at the Gates helping Winter in their Defence.

The fact he is extremely high in the confidence of Mab, up there with Kringle it seems, suggests he has access to Mab’s greatest secrets. If there is a way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach Rashid would be privy to it. If there is the the rules of congruency we have already seen in operation would suggest that Demonreach backs onto somewhere which is a maximum security prison in the Never Never. Try tunnel out of Demonreach you tunnel into somewhere as bad. I thought at first Hades realm, but Greek mythology has people coming and going on a regular basis and we know how careful everybody was to maintain no help from Marcone to avoid ruining that link in Skin Game. Mab’s Icecapades on the other has never allowed anyone out, Lea was not actually liberated if she had that might have corrupted the link, another motive perhaps for the attempt to block the Gatekeeper’s quick access to Demonreach.

Mab isn’t always at home, so leaving a key under the doormat for Rashid for Demonreach makes sense. She can lock it whenever she want, but as I said she wanted to give Maeve enough rope to gang herself.

I think the intent in Turncoat was for Peabody to become Warden (he is an expert on summoning and binding, his book on Erl indicates that) but to do that he needed the current absentee Warden Dead, and if that was Fortier it explains why Peabody aimed the Captain at him for an otherwise motiveless killing. Unfortunately Harry by pure fluke beat him to it. The Murder and Harry acquiring the wardenship happen in the same book, coincidence, perhaps, but Battle Ground showed Christos was not the stalking horse he was portrayed to be earlier destroying that weak motive, and it would depend on his election succeeding. Killing the Warden means the wardenship is up for grabs definitely unless some idiot just happens to blunder in.

Harry destroying a House when he is sheltering the homeless would not sit well with Harry.

Should have gone for an impotence curse.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Basil on July 08, 2022, 05:42:39 PM
I think the intent in Turncoat was for Peabody to become Warden (he is an expert on summoning and binding, his book on Erl indicates that) but to do that he needed the current absentee Warden Dead, and if that was Fortier it explains why Peabody aimed the Captain at him for an otherwise motiveless killing. Unfortunately Harry by pure fluke beat him to it. The Murder and Harry acquiring the wardenship happen in the same book, coincidence, perhaps, but Battle Ground showed Christos was not the stalking horse he was portrayed to be earlier destroying that weak motive, and it would depend on his election succeeding. Killing the Warden means the wardenship is up for grabs definitely unless some idiot just happens to blunder in.

I completely agree that LaFortier was very likely the previous Warden.  McCoy and Harry thought the murder of LaFortier was to drive a wedge into the White Council and get one of the Black Council on the Senior Council.  This honestly never made any sense at all. Why would the Black Council need a seat on the Senior Council when they had Peabody "taking care" of everything?  In reality, the Black Council was very effectively controlling and influencing the Senior Council already.  Frankly, this is more of Harry and McCoy thinking everything is about Wizards. 

Additionally, Wizard Christos doesn't seem that bad -- just a self-important blow-hard (like all Wizards).  He doesn't seem to be particularly anti-Dresden either.  Moreover, he was seriously wounded -- very badly burned -- during the Battle of Chicago and was conveniently absent from the vote against Harry.  Indeed, it seems likely that the only Senior Council members present were Merlin and Mai (and maybe Liberty) -- Christos, Listens to Wind and McCoy were all hospitalized.  Sure, he went ape-sh*t on Harry during the Arianna incident, but let's be honest -- Harry deserved every bit of that and more. 

It is also clear from Turn Coat that Peabody and Rashid knew of Ways to Demonreach.  However, they are clearly different Ways.  Rashid came to the Docks and did not set foot on the island, whereas Peabody came to a different part of the island.  Even if a Way from Arctis Tor exists to Demonreach, and Rashid used that, Peabody's way is not the same.  Maeve, Lilly and Fix used hang-gliders to get to the top of the island.  Binder and the White Court vampire used jet skis. 

I also believe that a Way made on Demonreach would go to Hades, it would not go to the vaults, however, but the prison part of Hades.  This is why Harry couldn't open a Way on Demonreach and get to where Nicodemus wanted to go.  Hades is probably quite large. 

Finally, while Rashid probably has max respect from Mab, I doubt she let's anyone know her secrets. 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 08, 2022, 07:24:13 PM
Quote
It is also clear from Turn Coat that Peabody and Rashid knew of Ways to Demonreach.  However, they are clearly different Ways.  Rashid came to the Docks and did not set foot on the island, whereas Peabody came to a different part of the island.  Even if a Way from Arctis Tor exists to Demonreach, and Rashid used that, Peabody's way is not the same.  Maeve, Lilly and Fix used hang-gliders to get to the top of the island.  Binder and the White Court vampire used jet skis.

Only because Rashid and Demonreach/Alfred have issues, this is why he arrived on the dock. So it isn't necessarily significant that Peabody ended up where he did and Rashid where he did.

However this is getting off topic.  Mab doesn't trust Noname, after the attack on Arctis Tor she sent him into the mortal world as a lawyer. One of his main clients is Marcone, who also now holds Namshiel's coin.. Namshiel is suspected as being the one who tossed Hell Fire around when Arctis Tor was attacked.  In Small Favor Mab said that she and Uriel had a common enemy. I believe Mab was very aware about who took Namshiel's coin.  Mab is playing the long game.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2022, 11:00:01 PM
Mab will let certain people know certain of her secrets to see what they do with them. Like everything with Mab it’s a test. If Maeve was told about a way to Demonreach and then forbidden to use it, that’s a test that Maeve failed, the test positive for Nemfection. You get rid of anyone else who knows like Nameless,  forcing Maeve into the position to do the job.

This makes me wonder,  Mab’s most notorious secret was supposedly ferreted out by Bob that Immortals can die on Halloween. Did she allow him to have this information just to see what he would do with it? In the long-term it rid her of a Nemfected Winter Lady who hadn’t even been born. Did she set Bob up as a weapon against other immortals? It strikes me tha Mab was very lax in relation to Bob.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 09, 2022, 01:45:34 AM
Quote

This makes me wonder,  Mab’s most notorious secret was supposedly ferreted out by Bob that Immortals can die on Halloween. Did she allow him to have this information just to see what he would do with it? In the long-term it rid her of a Nemfected Winter Lady who hadn’t even been born. Did she set Bob up as a weapon against other immortals? It strikes me tha Mab was very lax in relation to Bob.

I doubt it is a secret, if it is, it is an open one.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 09, 2022, 02:14:32 AM
We learned that Kemmler had something to do with starting both WWI and WWII.

Wasn't that part mentioned previously?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 09, 2022, 02:48:52 AM
I think the intent in Turncoat was for Peabody to become Warden (he is an expert on summoning and binding, his book on Erl indicates that) but to do that he needed the current absentee Warden Dead, and if that was Fortier it explains why Peabody aimed the Captain at him for an otherwise motiveless killing. Unfortunately Harry by pure fluke beat him to it.

Perhaps. It would certainly be a stronger motive to take him out than what TC made clear.

But it depends on the WOJ that the rest of the Senior Council would turn on any of their fellow SC members who jump to a preemptive strike on any of their own fellow members who grabbed such personal power (and they only spared Harry because they realized he did it out of ignorance) being a strategic misdirect.

It's an odd thing to lie about, considering there's no obvious reason LaFortier being that previous Warden would be too spoilery to answer, let alone so spoilery to require misdirection. Especially when Jim volunteered Kemmler being the next-to-previous Warden quite near that comment, and that seems like a much bigger lore point than if the previous one was indeed LaFortier.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 09, 2022, 05:30:51 AM
If LaFortier was the Warden at the time of his murder, then every Senior Council member who knew of it is an idiot.

Being the Warden would be the most obvious motive for his murder and the vulnerability of the island should have leaped to priority one on their list. The Warden is capable of bringing about THE END from within a near impregnable fortress with little to no prep time. Why isn't there a team headed to Chicago to stop say, that murdering traitor Morgan from taking the office? Why isn't there a call to the Senior Warden for North America alerting him of possible danger in his home city?

If you instead say that no one but Peabody knew, he doesn't have to do anything beyond having LaFortier killed. But he should have left for Demonreach as soon as the kill was confirmed. Everyone was focused on Morgan so he could have gone to Chicago and then the island before anyone thought to look for him.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 09, 2022, 09:29:23 AM
If LaFortier was the Warden at the time of his murder, then every Senior Council member who knew of it is an idiot.

Being the Warden would be the most obvious motive for his murder and the vulnerability of the island should have leaped to priority one on their list. The Warden is capable of bringing about THE END from within a near impregnable fortress with little to no prep time. Why isn't there a team headed to Chicago to stop say, that murdering traitor Morgan from taking the office? Why isn't there a call to the Senior Warden for North America alerting him of possible danger in his home city?

If you instead say that no one but Peabody knew, he doesn't have to do anything beyond having LaFortier killed. But he should have left for Demonreach as soon as the kill was confirmed. Everyone was focused on Morgan so he could have gone to Chicago and then the island before anyone thought to look for him.

I also believe that the island had been without a Warden for some time, the Merlin, if no one else should have known that.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Fcrate on July 09, 2022, 09:44:18 AM
I also believe that the island had been without a Warden for some time, the Merlin, if no one else should have known that.
That was also my impression. A Warden isn't needed around the clock. In normal times, maybe once a century.
Besides, LaFortier may have been very powerful, but I didn't get a fighter vibe from him in Summer Knight., I got "schemer/politician". He also defended himself physically instead of magically against Luccio the night he died, which suggests very limited combat experience. There are tons of solutions between holding your arms up to block the knife and Avada Kedavra.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Arjan on July 09, 2022, 10:08:22 AM
That was also my impression. A Warden isn't needed around the clock. In normal times, maybe once a century.
Besides, LaFortier may have been very powerful, but I didn't get a fighter vibe from him in Summer Knight., I got "schemer/politician". He also defended himself physically instead of magically against Luccio the night he died, which suggests very limited combat experience. There are tons of solutions between holding your arms up to block the knife and Avada Kedavra.
Not necessarily. Except from the gatekeeper white council members continuously seem to know less than expected. Senior council members included here.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 09, 2022, 02:36:29 PM
LaFortier's killing makes sense within the context of the story.  He didn't need to be anything. It fits the pattern of Chaos that Butcher keeps eluding to. You don't replace LaFortier with someone smarter, you replace him with someone dumber, ditto Luccio.  LaFortier could have been the Warden, but in what Butcher has put on the page to this point the prison is an idiot test.  You can't be too bright if you want it and are less bright if you want to keep it.

In a more practical sense you don't create weapons as powerful as the prison without safeguards to prevent it's misuse.   Either Merlin was an idiot or Butcher is. There is some part of the puzzle that is missing.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 09, 2022, 03:19:40 PM
That was also my impression. A Warden isn't needed around the clock. In normal times, maybe once a century.

A Warden is needed 24/7/365 with full time spotters stationed at key spots around the shore with  one or two fully kitted Warden/Winter SWAT teams also.

The safeguards in place are not enough when you consider that the island is only one bad boss from Ethniu and beings greater than her being unleashed on humanity with bad intentions. Ethniu and one tag team partner can take out Mab and Titania, who are our most powerful defenders who can act directly in opposition. Just the act of freeing them at once might be enough. That much power concentrated together might shatter Reality
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 09, 2022, 04:55:23 PM
The Council wanted an absentee Warden, someone who would be a placeholder without really wanting the position. They were hoping to forget about Demonreach and fall back into their favourite pass time of internal politics. Besides the ENTIRE Senior Council were being influenced at the time by Peabody. If the aim was Demonreach you can bet they were influenced not to think about it. As only the Senior Council really knew of it none of the wizards helping them recover knew to ask about it, and deal with Peabody instructions on it.

Two new points on re-read

(1) the Otso perfectly describes how Bob or Bonea could enflesh their skulls, a theory I have been putting forward.

(2)Maximillian Valerious = Valerious Maximus a historical figure from the Rome of 1AD author of “Nine books of memorable deeds and sayings". If Harry has been learning Latin he should recognise that name.

Heloise is also of interested do not see her
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: seanham on July 09, 2022, 07:00:28 PM
Back to the OP, why does Nameless need to seek shelter under the protection of Winter/Mab as a vassal? It sounds like he is very powerful. Why is he not a Freeholder Lord? Also, what could Mab get out of the deal? As pointed out by Bob Nameless is a difficult ally to have because his aura(?) creates division and chaos, not things you want when planning for a battle. We know that Mab does nothing without reason so what could her reason be for bringing Nameless as her vassal? Also, we'll probably see him again in 12 Months because he is probably the Lawyer reviewing the conditions for Harries and Lara's dates.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 09, 2022, 07:12:33 PM
I also believe that the island had been without a Warden for some time, the Merlin, if no one else should have known that.

That's also a good point. One of the more knowledgeable characters (Vadderung, I think?) at one point equated a Warden being active to the island being 'awake'.

I have some doubts Alfred, if awake, would have tolerated the Denarians doing a major working on the island's surface. If LaFortier was the Warden and left the defenses sufficiently down to allow them to do that, he wasn't much of a caretaker. Although, Alfred also took some years before introducing Harry to the actual capability to leave defenses turned on, so who knows?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 09, 2022, 08:06:46 PM
Back to the OP, why does Nameless need to seek shelter under the protection of Winter/Mab as a vassal? It sounds like he is very powerful. Why is he not a Freeholder Lord? Also, what could Mab get out of the deal? As pointed out by Bob Nameless is a difficult ally to have because his aura(?) creates division and chaos, not things you want when planning for a battle. We know that Mab does nothing without reason so what could her reason be for bringing Nameless as her vassal? Also, we'll probably see him again in 12 Months because he is probably the Lawyer reviewing the conditions for Harries and Lara's dates.

Harry flat out says that Mab doesn't trust him. She placed him and Ms Lapland in the mortal world after Arctis Tor was attacked.  That is why I suggested in my thread that he may have been a mole for Nemesis before hand. Also I believe she knows that Namshiel had something to do with the attack on Arctis Tor, that Marcone had the coin and that it was only a matter of time before he took it up.  So Nameless is useful to her as one who can keep an eye on Marcone and all his business dealings, thus Namshiel.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 09, 2022, 08:20:07 PM
Back to the OP, why does Nameless need to seek shelter under the protection of Winter/Mab as a vassal? It sounds like he is very powerful. Why is he not a Freeholder Lord? Also, what could Mab get out of the deal? As pointed out by Bob Nameless is a difficult ally to have because his aura(?) creates division and chaos, not things you want when planning for a battle. We know that Mab does nothing without reason so what could her reason be for bringing Nameless as her vassal? Also, we'll probably see him again in 12 Months because he is probably the Lawyer reviewing the conditions for Harries and Lara's dates.

The obvious reason for Nameless to seek shelter in Winter is that he was in fact doing an Arnim Zola for the Circle, Mab may have foreseen this and decided to keep him close and locked down by Winter Law. For all we have seen of Cowl his only interaction with Winter was giving Lea the Athame, for which he was heavily disguised suggesting Lea might otherwise recognise him. If Cowl is Nameless this makes sense. Giving Lea the Athame should not be a violation of Winter Law on the part of Nameless but look at the damage that did to Winter. Almost as though Cowl was looking for a loophole in Winter Law.

The scene in Nameless meeting room  dwells upon three items one is obviously Checkov’s Bear Skull, one is a scrimshawed Walrus Tusk (a gift from Lacuna?) the last is a cruelly curved dagger. I believe we have only seen one person with a magical dagger before, Cowl in Grave Peril.

I believe Nameless has been working for Marcone for some time before Harry notified her of Namshiel
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 09, 2022, 09:10:48 PM
Also I believe she knows that Namshiel had something to do with the attack on Arctis Tor, that Marcone had the coin and that it was only a matter of time before he took it up.  So Nameless is useful to her as one who can keep an eye on Marcone and all his business dealings, thus Namshiel.

I'm not sure why she'd react like Harry addressing Marcone as "Sir" at the end of BG was filling in a piece for her if she already knew.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 09, 2022, 09:44:43 PM
I think Arctis Tor was a ploy by Mab to draw out her enemies, just like holding the Peace Talks near a large body of water on Mab and Winters weakest day of the year, she set up circumstances where she would look vulnerable.

The ejection of Nameless and Laplander, the move on Maeve, the recruitment of Molly and setting up Nicodemus to use up his favour on a pointless (for him) Assault on Hades Vault seem to be the consequences of that ploy.

That we know of.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 09, 2022, 11:20:15 PM
The Council wanted an absentee Warden, someone who would be a placeholder without really wanting the position. They were hoping to forget about Demonreach and fall back into their favourite pass time of internal politics. Besides the ENTIRE Senior Council were being influenced at the time by Peabody. If the aim was Demonreach you can bet they were influenced not to think about it. As only the Senior Council really knew of it none of the wizards helping them recover knew to ask about it, and deal with Peabody instructions on it.

Two new points on re-read

(1) the Otso perfectly describes how Bob or Bonea could enflesh their skulls, a theory I have been putting forward.


I can see the Council wanting an absentee Warden. They don't want any one wizard to have that power.

Bur I can't see any of the other Powers protecting the world wanting this. Again, too much harm can be done in too short a time with no obvious warnings. Mab doesn't take chances with that much risk of failure. I doubt Uriel is happy with the arrangement either. It's a big hole in Jim's universe building.

The Otso was summoned by Lapland. It's something from the NeverNever summoned using the skull as a focus. The limits that we see on Spirts of Intellect like Bob are all that keep them from being major Powers in the world. With a physical body, Bob would be the equal of a powerful White Council member and he'd be able to build and hide numerous bolt-holes to hide in. The Dresdenverse would be much more like a game of Shadowrun if the spirits could roam free.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: seanham on July 10, 2022, 12:32:13 AM
The obvious reason for Nameless to seek shelter in Winter is that he was in fact doing an Arnim Zola for the Circle, Mab may have foreseen this and decided to keep him close and locked down by Winter Law. For all we have seen of Cowl his only interaction with Winter was giving Lea the Athame, for which he was heavily disguised suggesting Lea might otherwise recognise him. If Cowl is Nameless this makes sense. Giving Lea the Athame should not be a violation of Winter Law on the part of Nameless but look at the damage that did to Winter. Almost as though Cowl was looking for a loophole in Winter Law.

The scene in Nameless meeting room  dwells upon three items one is obviously Checkov’s Bear Skull, one is a scrimshawed Walrus Tusk (a gift from Lacuna?) the last is a cruelly curved dagger. I believe we have only seen one person with a magical dagger before, Cowl in Grave Peril.

Good point about Lea recognizing Cowl but that does not prove that Nameless is Cowl. Remember Harry thinks that the reason why Cowl and Kumori hid themselves in their clocks is because HE (or others) would recognize them from the White Council. Also, if Nameless is as powerful as Bob says he is why has Harry beaten him in their past meetings? Finally, if Kumori is Lapland then why has Harry not felt the sexual "wammy" that he felt? Why would Lapland hide this ability or for that matter why would Lapland want to "cure death"?

Also, do y'all really think Jim would introduce Cowl's real identity in a novella? Especially one that is just an electronic read for now? From the other novella's/short stories only Bigfoot has been introduced and re-appeared in the main books.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 10, 2022, 12:46:26 AM
Since when did the White Council deign to consult with anyone? They thought all the big bads were already locked away, turns out they missed at least one Titan and a Naagloshii. Morgan’s previous run-in with a Naagloshii should have warned them.

Mab put together the Accords in part because the White Council were shirking their duties and more obsessed with their rogue members as being the biggest threats.

Uriel can do bugger all.

I do wonder though whether they nudged Harry towards Demonreach.

The Otso skull would work as a sanctum for the spirit, and it would pull ectoplasm from the Never Never to give it a body. There are limits, the body will collapse if trapped within  a circle, experienced dawn, or tried to pass a threshold, or gets too badly damaged. It’s the same trick Goodman Grey uses to increase his mass.

Bobs Skull is enchanted so he has to obey the current owner. That prevents him running around and doing as he pleases, and I would suspect the enchantment prevents Bob doing this, creating a body which is why he wants his holiday home. Bonea’s skull doesn’t appear to have this control element.

Harry is an unreliable narrator, and thinks Burger King is better than McDonalds. At GP Harry was young, naive and thought the White Council was the centre of everything. Jim would exactly introduce the real identity of Cowl in a Novella, to get a rise out of the fans. See the podcast


Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 10, 2022, 01:23:13 AM
Did I miss something? Bianca got the Atheme from Cowl, Lea got it from Bianca.
Quote
Bianca presented her with a small black case. Lea opened it, and a slow tremble ran down her body, made her flame-red hair shift and glisten. My godmother closed it again and said, “A princely gift. Happily, as is the custom of my people, I have brought a matter of equal worth, to exchange with you.”
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2022, 04:13:10 AM
I'm not sure why she'd react like Harry addressing Marcone as "Sir" at the end of BG was filling in a piece for her if she already knew.

I just reread that scene, Mab's reaction was approval of Harry humbling Marcone in front of everyone, because it was with a sarcastic tone that he called him, "Sir."  Mab was clearly supporting Harry all through that though she didn't say much, she didn't have to, but she seemed to enjoy Harry getting the best of Marcone.
Quote
Bobs Skull is enchanted so he has to obey the current owner. That prevents him running around and doing as he pleases, and I would suspect the enchantment prevents Bob doing this, creating a body which is why he wants his holiday home. Bonea’s skull doesn’t appear to have this control element.
Bob's skull is a real human skull, or is described as that, the one Bonea lives in is made of wood. One that Harry was attempting to carve for Bob originally. 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 10, 2022, 08:49:13 AM
Did I miss something? Bianca got the Atheme from Cowl, Lea got it from Bianca.

Of course which would have insulated Cowl from the Law of Winter regarding giving of gifts to Lea if Cowl was subject to the Law of Winter. Otherwise Lea on accepting it from Cowl would have been obligated to Cowl. Bianca was a social climber, the gifts to Lea and Mavra and Ferro were to get them there, at this high profile public event, the benefit that Bianca obtained from giving them. Bianca (and the Red Court) was obligated to Cowl and they paid that  obligation off with the attack on the White Council to the Circle timetable rather their own, but then Harry upset things.

The Law doesn’t refer to Chicago legal system, it refers to the Law of Winter principally, and that’s important, it binds the Winter Court only. It therefore makes sense that beyond the major characters we know associated with Winter there is someone  else also subject to Winter Law looking for ways to work around it or to break free of it. The actions of Cowl in GP definitely follow that pattern. In DB Cowl is looking for a major power up, one which incidentally would weaken Mab by destroying a very powerful vassal. That’s definitely consistent. In White Night Cowl is behind the White Court breakaway scheme to kill the mortal practitioners and weaken mankind’s link to magic. Cowl does nothing in conflict with Winter Law, it looks to be purely Circle Business, and he uses willing White Court cats paws so initiating conflict between the White Court and the White Council, keeping Winter out of it.

Thats why I think Cowl is Nameless, Jim must be laughing his ass off that the anonymous character who has clearly been keeping himself anonymous throughout the series is in fact Nameless. Nameless himself raises the fact that his lack of a name makes it very difficult for wizards to lock onto him. Cowl was immensely surprised in WN Harry had done so, but Harry could only do so because of Little Chicago, which took a totally different approach to tracking and locating to those normally used (name, blood, personal possessions) .
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2022, 11:34:09 AM
Quote
Of course which would have insulated Cowl from the Law of Winter regarding giving of gifts to Lea if Cowl was subject to the Law of Winter. Otherwise Lea on accepting it from Cowl would have been obligated to Cowl. Bianca was a social climber, the gifts to Lea and Mavra and Ferro were to get them there, at this high profile public event, the benefit that Bianca obtained from giving them. Bianca (and the Red Court) was obligated to Cowl and they paid that  obligation off with the attack on the White Council to the Circle timetable rather their own, but then Harry upset things.

Do you really think Mab would have allowed any of that to go unpunished? Because is Nameless is Cowl then the infected Knife originated in the Winter Court, since though practicing in the mortal world, Nameless is still a part of of it.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 10, 2022, 12:56:52 PM
It depends on whether at the time of GP she knew Nameless was working against her. After Arctis Tor in PG she knew and kicked him out, but still kept him under Winter Law. The most we have seen of Cowl is in DB, the book before PG. We see him via Little Chicago (which is maybe why Mab fixed it) and we see him briefly looking into the cavern from the NeverNever in WN. Not Mab’s business.

If Mab went through Harry’s memories when he became Winter Knight (this is Mab and Harry had Molly remove his suicide plot memories beforehand, so yes) Mab has access to Harry’s memories. She will have examined those of GP and the handover of the Athame and from that further examined Harry’s memories of Cowl in DB and WN.

Mab will have known Nameless is Cowl from Changes. Cowl has been keeping a low profile since then, as he may suspect Mab now has Harry’s knowledge of Cowl and he is still subject to Winter Law in the way Laplander is subject to him. Hence no Cowl in Peace Talks/Battle Ground. At this point he probably started working with Listen (not to have him as a Vassal, as that would put him in conflict with Winter attacking the Winter Lady’s family)

Mab must be annoyed that Harry took on Nameless in The Law, as it led to Harry getting two important clues and may result in Nameless getting burnt before her plan for him rolls out. She is clearly setting up Nameless for something and it isn’t good. I think perhaps a collision course with the Denarians and Marcone. She wants the Denarians who attacked Arctis Tor with Hellfire. I think that surprised her, not the assault but that it included one or more Denarians, and it is exposing who amongst them. She has Harry’s memory of his conversation with Nicky in SF, so knows it surprised Nicky and she now knows that Nicky’s control over them is not as strong as everybody thought. Skin Game required Nicky to sacrifice Deidre, creating an irrevocable rift with Tessa and weakening Nicky immensely. Preparation for exposing the Denarian member or members of the Circle given Mab’s penchant for scheming.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 11, 2022, 01:42:47 PM
If Cowl were Nameless then the events of Dead Beat needn't to have happened. Nameless is already a deity controlling a witch who did what Cowl attempted to do.  Seems kind of circular. Maybe I'm missing something.

Butcher is retconning Proven Guilty. Effectively saying, oh yeah, I forgot to  tell you that there were characters which you did not notice, doing things that were important to the main story line, that I didn't bother to ever mention until at least ten or more years after the fact. That is a lot of heavy lifting for a reader.

Care to speculate about who will Harry use to to do the legwork on his prenup with Lara? However I did like the chickens. And the disembodied wife. Can you guess about the genesis of the premise of the plot?

@Conspiracy Theorist

There are more similarities between Demonreach and Arctis Tor then you mention. But doors open both ways.  If the point were  to free Lea then why not enter  through Demonreach instead of Pell's theater, thus saving the walk and the need to fight your way through the courtyard? Ditto on attacking the Wellspring directly. Purely descriptively, the portal would be connected to the Well itself rather than on the island in general. The Well is the prison rather than the island.



Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2022, 03:52:33 PM
Quote
If Cowl were Nameless then the events of Dead Beat needn't to have happened. Nameless is already a deity controlling a witch who did what Cowl attempted to do.  Seems kind of circular. Maybe I'm missing something.
My point also, if you are already a demigod, why do you need Darkhallow?
Quote
Care to speculate about who will Harry use to to do the legwork on his prenup with Lara? However I did like the chickens. And the disembodied wife. Can you guess about the genesis of the premise of the plot?
Though he doesn't perhaps know the laws and politics involved in something like this, but I think Michael would throw Lara's people off balance just a bit.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2022, 04:09:05 PM
Nameless is less powerful than Mab say at The Erl Kings level, he is bound by Winter Law and the only way out would be to reverse the balance of power, as he did with Laplander. That may be why he teamed up with Kemmler, he needed to go into Winter but needed a way out when the time was right, which didn’t involve him dying.

Indeed but if this was a scouting visit for Demonreach to ascertain its physical location and the state of its defences then the Way through Arctis Tor is the only option. You otherwise might inadvertently get to inspect the prison from the inside. They may have found out that it had an absentee warden and minimal active defences and where it was. That might have signed Fortiers Death Warrant, Peabody could get to the island safely in the mortal world and become the Warden in a leisurely fashion. However Harry got involved.

Why yes Jim would do a retcon of Proven Guilty. He already has with Morgan’s Microfiction.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 11, 2022, 04:53:28 PM
There was no need to do convoluted and dangerous cloak and dagger missions to scout Demonreach before the end of CD. Anyone with the will to fight off the passive avoidance aura could just hop on a boat and go there in a matter of hours. Nic and company set up there for a couple of days without any consequences. Demonreach's mental attacks are just something Jim uses to isolate Harry from his friends. They've never even slowed down his enemies.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2022, 06:23:01 PM
Oh dear I hadn’t thought of that.

Actually I had and it is set out in several previous threads. Demonreach is a Blacksite prison, it’s location is likely to to be highly restricted even among the Senior Council.

Beings who go to Demonreach tend to do so as a one way trip. Ask Ethnui. I doubt inmates get conjugal visits (Thomas may be a first, naturally)

Even Wardens may only have travelled there by the Way, indeed Kemmler most likely only ever did so. Unless he got a fix on its position via longitude and latitude, all that is known is that it is an island on a body of water. You can’t get a fix on it via magic. You would physically have to search for it, or in Harry’s case just stumble over it. When Kemmler got booted out as Warden it may be that Fistful of Warlocks was actually Kemmler trying to physically locate Demonreach in the real world. Which is difficult, even with 21st C tech.

Mab would have closed off the way to Kemmler when he got booted, so whilst Warden he was not able to reach the island. When he finally died it mean’t the Senior Council could appoint a new warden with the Gatekeeper shadowing the candidate through the Way. The Senior Council may not even have known the location if it was only known to the Gatekeeper. Thus Peabody couldn’t get it with his ink, as like Harry the Gatekeeper was only around rarely, and Fortier an old wizard was dead set about visiting the place, but he may have let slip to Peabody the Way was via Arctis Tor. “Demonreach? Why would I want to go to Arctis Tor?”

When one thinks of the Gatekeeper one thinks of the Outer Gates, but perhaps he was also the Gatekeeper for other things, such as the access for Demonreach. And who knows what other Gates?

You didn’t think I had just the one Conspiracy Theory did you?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2022, 06:24:08 PM
There was no need to do convoluted and dangerous cloak and dagger missions to scout Demonreach before the end of CD. Anyone with the will to fight off the passive avoidance aura could just hop on a boat and go there in a matter of hours. Nic and company set up there for a couple of days without any consequences. Demonreach's mental attacks are just something Jim uses to isolate Harry from his friends. They've never even slowed down his enemies.

Yes, the mental attacks were a subtle thing that eventually ran out would be intruders.  The fact for a time in the 1800s a small town was established that after a few years was abandoned along with the island is proof of that.  It is also evidence that at that time there was no real Warden in charge of the island's defenses.  Without a Warden to establish the true defenses of the island all Alfred can really do is send out bad vibes to discourage long term visitors.  Contrast with the current situation with Harry in charge, no one now gets on the island without his say.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2022, 10:38:26 PM
Oh they can get on.

Getting off is an entirely different kettle of fish.

The fishing town would have been established when Kemmler got the sack as Warden, as you say because the active defences were down at the time. The Gatekeeper would likely be keeping an eye on things during this period, and the town would have been protective coloration so maybe he had a hand in establishing it as an additional non-magical defence to its discovery, as signs of visible habitation where none had previously existed would put off casual searchers for the island. Perhaps one or more workers were actually working for the Gatekeeper in case someone showed up? Early warning of Kemmlerites. Someone must have been living in the cottage.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 12, 2022, 12:17:55 AM
Oh dear I hadn’t thought of that.

Actually I had and it is set out in several previous threads. Demonreach is a Blacksite prison, it’s location is likely to to be highly restricted even among the Senior Council.

Beings who go to Demonreach tend to do so as a one way trip. Ask Ethnui. I doubt inmates get conjugal visits (Thomas may be a first, naturally)

Even Wardens may only have travelled there by the Way, indeed Kemmler most likely only ever did so. Unless he got a fix on its position via longitude and latitude, all that is known is that it is an island on a body of water. You can’t get a fix on it via magic. You would physically have to search for it, or in Harry’s case just stumble over it. When Kemmler got booted out as Warden it may be that Fistful of Warlocks was actually Kemmler trying to physically locate Demonreach in the real world. Which is difficult, even with 21st C tech.

Mab would have closed off the way to Kemmler when he got booted, so whilst Warden he was not able to reach the island. When he finally died it mean’t the Senior Council could appoint a new warden with the Gatekeeper shadowing the candidate through the Way. The Senior Council may not even have known the location if it was only known to the Gatekeeper. Thus Peabody couldn’t get it with his ink, as like Harry the Gatekeeper was only around rarely, and Fortier an old wizard was dead set about visiting the place, but he may have let slip to Peabody the Way was via Arctis Tor. “Demonreach? Why would I want to go to Arctis Tor?”

When one thinks of the Gatekeeper one thinks of the Outer Gates, but perhaps he was also the Gatekeeper for other things, such as the access for Demonreach. And who knows what other Gates?

You didn’t think I had just the one Conspiracy Theory did you?

Your theory is fine for excluding the good guys and the neutrals.

It's the Bad Guys we're worried about though. Nic knows and probably so do another many of the other Denarians. The Fallen predate Demonreach and I'm sure many of their allies, pawns and enemies have ended up there in the course of the lasy 2K years. So that's one group that knows.

Nemesis and the rest of the Outsiders of any import probably also know. One wonders if they have never plotted against the prison before. They've had longer than Nic and company to try. It only takes a few survivors of failed attempts or the cultivation of a new crop of power hungry warlocks to get that knowledge out and about. And this is a "We only have to succeed once, You have to be perfect countless times." problem.

So that's two groups that have travelled there without a Way. Do we know of any others? No, but we also didn't know that the island was Supernatural Alcatraz until it was revealed in CD. Sometimes authors introduce a plot hook without thinking through the long term implications or inferences for their worlds. It's just the simplest explanation.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2022, 12:49:35 AM
I would think only beings with Intellectus would be aware of Demonreach and what exactly it is. Very few beings have a comprehensive Intellectus, we have seen only three, mothers Winter, Summer and Uriel. I doubt even Anduriel can see into Demonreach, but it gives him a nice warm vibe.

The bad vibe it gives is attractive to bad guys in the same way that warehouse keeps getting used for murder, or like Chichen Itsa. If they knew what it was they wouldn’t go near it, it’s a trap.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: seanham on July 12, 2022, 03:33:24 AM
I would think only beings with Intellectus would be aware of Demonreach and what exactly it is. Very few beings have a comprehensive Intellectus, we have seen only three, mothers Winter, Summer and Uriel. I doubt even Anduriel can see into Demonreach, but it gives him a nice warm vibe.

The bad vibe it gives is attractive to bad guys in the same way that warehouse keeps getting used for murder, or like Chichen Itsa. If they knew what it was they wouldn’t go near it, it’s a trap.

All good points, however, somehow Eb, Rashid, and The Merlin know about the island and at least part of its true purpose. On page 495 of Turn Coat, the following important bits are written as part of Eb's journal. With this in mind, I would add these senior council members, Vadderung, and all/most of the members of the Gray Council to the list of individuals who know Deamonreache's true purpose (second quote, Cold Days page 249). I would assume all or most of these additions would know because they all have connections to the original Merlin.

Quote
seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose. ... The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once ... Rashid says that warning him about the island would be pointless ... And of all the wizards I know, he's among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle

Quote
I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 12, 2022, 04:53:29 AM
... Even Wardens may only have travelled there by the Way, indeed Kemmler most likely only ever did so. Unless he got a fix on its position via longitude and latitude, all that is known is that it is an island on a body of water. You can’t get a fix on it via magic. You would physically have to search for it, or in Harry’s case just stumble over it. When Kemmler got booted out as Warden it may be that Fistful of Warlocks was actually Kemmler trying to physically locate Demonreach in the real world. Which is difficult, even with 21st C tech ...

" ... an island on a body of fresh water ... "

That narrows it considerably!
 
Latitude is trivially-easy to approximate, just by eyeball.
Given that you can travel via Ways, longitude is similarly-easy to get a rough approximation.

With age-of-sail tech, you can get a very very precise fix.

And while LTW may be the premier shapeshifter in the Council, it's not unique to him; so a wizard could get there via known Ways, then fly or swim to shore.

The White Council -- if they cared to know it -- has known the location of the Island for centuries.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2022, 09:59:28 AM
Quote
The White Council -- if they cared to know it -- has known the location of the Island for centuries.

And since there had been a lighthouse and settlement there at one time, so had ordinary vanilla humans.  If it isn't on any charts it is because there is an agreement that the island shouldn't be found.  And yes while it is an island in the middle of a fresh water lake, the Great Lakes get their name for a reason.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2022, 10:10:39 AM
Senior Council would know of the island and would realise once there where ‘there’ was, especially if the Gatekeeper turns up separately without a means of transport. Harry inadvertently blew one of the White Council’s major secrets. Wizards love secrets.

Again if the Gatekeeper organised it to keep it off maps and charts then this made it difficult for Kemmler to find it, you would have to come into line of sight to find it and the cannery would put someone off looking for an uninhabited island.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 12, 2022, 03:24:28 PM
But the senior Council and most of the Wardens after Kemmler had tp know about the island and it's physical location. How could they effectively stop him from going someplace if they didn't know where the place was?

Even if they were brought in by Way, Age of Sail tech could give them a reliable longitude and latitude and that's centuries old.

Yeah, wizards love secrets but somehow the evil opposition always has better sources of information to get their plans rolling. Their "need to know" pool is bigger otherwise you have confused minions running around wasting resources and time.

Jim is very into trope of only telling the heroes what they need to know at the last possible minute. It works well with Harry because he has to follow the plot and there are always pure altruists like the Knights but how many would say before crisis 3 or 4, "F' this, I need full disclosure to prepare properly and Y'know survive. Either trust me, pay me really, really well with money and favors or solve this next crisis on your own. That includes alerting me before we go to supernatural DefCon4." Three or four times with the mushroom treatment can turn even your staunchest allies against you, see Ramirez, Carlos. And that's the pool of people that you now have to monitor constantly to safeguard the existence of the island, especially if there is no active Warden and the defenses are on standby, which they were from SF to the climax of CD.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2022, 07:10:13 PM
Because they were after Kemmler, not the island. If they tried to bushwhack on the island the wardens and the Senior council would have lost. Earth Magic immediately cancelled and turned against the practitioners, Alfred coming out and killing at will, several Naagloshii freed to feed on as many wardens as they wish.

If Kemmler ever got back to the island as warden, game over. They couldn’t get him out, so my guess they lured him out on a pretext, slammed the door on him via the ways and then thought they could apprehend him at their leisure.

Getting longitude and latitude means taking the tools and acquiring the knowledge to do so, and having the impetus to do so. I kind of feel Kemmler got caught with his pants down, he hadn’t prepared for being sacked so hadn’t planned a route back in the mortal world, but so were the Wardens unprepared, not realising how powerful Kemmler had become, but Kemmler wasn’t powerful enough to fight through Arctis Tor and defeat a Mab lockdown.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 12, 2022, 08:44:21 PM
So Kemmler was smart enough to become the Warden, to amass the knowledge to perform the Darkhallow, to form a small army disciples and to cause two World Wars as cover, didn't think to get a real world fix on his ultimate bolt hole in all the time he was Warden? He didn't think to perform a simple tracking spell to some item or landmark he'd left on the island through the veils which do not affect him because he's the Warden? He was never able to reach  the North American Great Lakes region and triangulate with his sense of the island's location? He never spent one night on the island looking at the stars and getting a general fix? Because the wardens are out 24/7/365 for 70-80 years keeping him and all his disciples from exploring the area? Even the ones they don't know about?

Extremely convoluted theory of the Dresdenverse's history versus or simple plot reveal that reveals unintended and unplanned plot holes. I'm in the KISS school myself.

 Somehow I don't think that Jim fleshed out such detail in the 11th of a 20 book outline when he was turning in the Dresden Files as a school project.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 12, 2022, 09:10:50 PM
Because people overlook the bleeding obvious, Wizards are arrogant and Kemmler personally has to get close enough to the island to lock on. The wardens job was to prevent that. Then Kemmler locked onto a new plan, the Darkhallow which did not require use of the prison and its inmates. We can presume in Warlocks he was searching for Demonreach. He was then back in Europe to start WW1, presumably a new Scheme, and after that WW2.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 12, 2022, 11:10:23 PM
You would have to assume that Merlin was an idiot to buy into this. He builds a prison with a fail safe that would take out Chicago and the environs, yet ignores the possibility of someone like Kemmler. I can't eat that apple. It's full of worms.

For navigation purposes finding an island on Lake Michigan is relatively easy.  By the early 1700's the first settlements were on the Lake. Not to mention that the Lake is pretty big and practically unmissable.

Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 12, 2022, 11:19:42 PM
I think folks are overlooking something, here.

Wizards love secrets.  "It's like crack cocaine for them" is IIRC an exact WoJ quote.

Jim has also stated (paraphrased this time) that the Senior Council has all the information to easily figure out the shadowy "Black Council" plot against them, but that much of that info is snippets in different wizards' heads; they are keeping so many secrets that they cannot see the forest for their own personal trees.

Now, consider one Harry Dresden:  wizard, snarkmeister, and generally disrespectful jerk (from the WC pov) and ALSO possibly / likely (depending on the wizard making the call) a warlock.

I'm pretty sure the Gatekeeper knows quite a lot about the island & the prison.  I bet LTW does, too.  I am pretty sure the Senior Council, as a whole, does not know very much about the island; just that it exists and is a ley-line nexus of dark energy.  That's enough to make it dangerous.

Because if they did, the prospect of a possible/probable warlock in charge of it wouldn't be Defcon4, it'd be Defcon5 and an all-out effort to kill Dresden.

Remember how many of the SC came to Demonreach when Harry arranged his "parlor scene" / confrontation?  On the island, the Warden is a credible threat against Mab herself.  Those councilors -- senior as they are -- would fall like ninepins.  If they knew what Demonreach was, what it could do, they wouldn't have put themselves there when they had such doubts about Harry.

QED:  the "senior council" -- as a body -- doesn't know what the island really is, what it can really do.  Only a few of the individual wizards have any idea... and they're busy smoking their own crack-pipes, not sharing with the others.

(n.b. they don't have to really understand the island to know it as a major locus of dark energy, which -- if claimed by a dark wizard like Kemmler, as a sanctum -- could vastly magnify power.  They barely managed to take him down, with an entire ocean between the island and the warden!  It's obvious he'd be unassailable in any major power-sanctum.  Exact knowledge not needed.)
 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 12, 2022, 11:43:46 PM
Because people overlook the bleeding obvious, Wizards are arrogant and Kemmler personally has to get close enough to the island to lock on. The wardens job was to prevent that. Then Kemmler locked onto a new plan, the Darkhallow which did not require use of the prison and its inmates. We can presume in Warlocks he was searching for Demonreach. He was then back in Europe to start WW1, presumably a new Scheme, and after that WW2.

And in order to do that, the wardens need to be somewhat in the vicinity of the island. Just knowing where the others are stationed would let a navigation savvy wizard (or warlock infiltrator) have enough info to find the place. I'm not saying that it's common knowledge just that a) It's absurd to think that Kemmler didn't know the geographical location and b) The security assigned to the place is too lax and c) If the White Council has fallen to the place where secrets are hampering rather than aiding their stated mission to protect the mortal world, they need a top to bottom reorganization and restructuring.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 13, 2022, 12:41:25 AM
... c) If the White Council has fallen to the place where secrets are hampering rather than aiding their stated mission to protect the mortal world, they need a top to bottom reorganization and restructuring.
I think that's a given.  One way or another, we've been seeing this over and over again.
 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 13, 2022, 02:06:44 AM
I just reread that scene, Mab's reaction was approval of Harry humbling Marcone in front of everyone, because it was with a sarcastic tone that he called him, "Sir."  Mab was clearly supporting Harry all through that though she didn't say much, she didn't have to, but she seemed to enjoy Harry getting the best of Marcone.

I was thinking of:
Quote
Mab's eyebrow went up so far that it threatened the line of her skull. Then she said, as if to Marcone, "Much is explained."

She was backing Harry about claiming the castle because, as she pointed out later, sowing doubt about the whereabouts of the Eye even though everyone thinks he /probably/ has it is even better than advertising it.

But I don't think her reaction to the hint about Marcone holding Namshiel's coin reads as feigned. What purpose would faking it serve? She may have suspected, but this landed as confirmation for her.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 13, 2022, 02:24:01 AM
Remember how many of the SC came to Demonreach when Harry arranged his "parlor scene" / confrontation?  On the island, the Warden is a credible threat against Mab herself.  Those councilors -- senior as they are -- would fall like ninepins.  If they knew what Demonreach was, what it could do, they wouldn't have put themselves there when they had such doubts about Harry.

QED:  the "senior council" -- as a body -- doesn't know what the island really is, what it can really do.  Only a few of the individual wizards have any idea... and they're busy smoking their own crack-pipes, not sharing with the others.

Plus Ancient Mai talked about it like she didn't realize why the island was "unpleasant".

From his notes and Vadderung's "Most of the people", I think Eb was in the know as to what the island is.  LtW possibly also. But Rashid may not have shared with them that Harry had taken up the Warden mantle before they came to the island. Even those in the know probably expected Alfred to be "asleep".
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 13, 2022, 02:35:03 AM
...  And yes while it is an island in the middle of a fresh water lake, the Great Lakes get their name for a reason.

And yet a wizard in 1776 could take a Way to the island, shoot the stars with a sextant, and go "Right then, I'm in the southern reaches of Lake Michigan."  If they were really good at it, they could reliably mark the location on a map.

If they cared to know, the information is trivially-easy to get.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 13, 2022, 09:35:45 AM
And yet a wizard in 1776 could take a Way to the island, shoot the stars with a sextant, and go "Right then, I'm in the southern reaches of Lake Michigan."  If they were really good at it, they could reliably mark the location on a map.

If they cared to know, the information is trivially-easy to get.

I'm not saying they couldn't find it, or didn't, there is the ruins of a settlement on it.  However unless you have it on a chart, it isn't going to be some you'd easily run across.  The Lakes are very large and can be very dangerous in storms. So if it is removed from charts for whatever reason, not easy to find. 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 13, 2022, 11:25:54 AM
Funny thing about the prison.  It has a giant spotlight which pinpoints the prison if you can get close to the Lake. It's the source of some fairly large ley lines. Which oddly enough is what Kemmler was trying to tap. Luccio even has a map of them.

The White Council as a body didn't need to know.  The Senior Council would know. The Merlin knew,  Eb knew, Listens To Wind knew and Rashid knew. The other Senior Council members had to be semi aware or else how could they control the hunt by the Wardens? This is a case of oversharing by Butcher.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 13, 2022, 02:30:21 PM
You would have to assume that Merlin was an idiot to buy into this. He builds a prison with a fail safe that would take out Chicago and the environs, yet ignores the possibility of someone like Kemmler. I can't eat that apple. It's full of worms.

For navigation purposes finding an island on Lake Michigan is relatively easy.  By the early 1700's the first settlements were on the Lake. Not to mention that the Lake is pretty big and practically unmissable.

Which is why it is always accessed through Arctis Tor, Mab is the failsafe
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 13, 2022, 04:00:37 PM
Which is why it is always accessed through Arctis Tor, Mab is the failsafe

The prison can only be accessed by Alfred and the Warden if I remember correctly.  The island if you know where to look can by accessed by boat.. Oh and when Alfred took Harry and Bob down to show him where the prison was, they didn't need to go through Arctis Tor, they just needed the codes. Mab isn't the fail safe, at the end of Cold Days Harry threatened to turn Alfred on her and she backed off.  If she could be put in the slammer, she isn't a fail safe.
Quote
The White Council as a body didn't need to know.  The Senior Council would know. The Merlin knew,  Eb knew, Listens To Wind knew and Rashid knew. The other Senior Council members had to be semi aware or else how could they control the hunt by the Wardens? This is a case of oversharing by Butcher.
I doubt they know the details though..
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 13, 2022, 06:29:27 PM
Which is why it is always accessed through Arctis Tor, Mab is the failsafe

You keep referencing that but there is nothing in the books or a WoJ that says that Way even exists. I have plenty of pet theories but I don't base my arguments on the. Please show your work with quotes.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 13, 2022, 06:52:16 PM
Have already done so, please read the thread.

Where would you consider Demonreach backs onto in the NeverNever? Please provide quotes.

Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 13, 2022, 10:11:26 PM
Oh dear, I have to explain it again. There is a way from Chicago (Pell’s Theatre, Harry used it) to just outside Arctis Tor. Maeve let’s him in the fortress and takes Peabody to the Ice Dungeon and takes him plus Spiders to Demonreach. She brings him back, takes him back to Chicago and he goes back to Edinburgh. He makes his own way to Chicago.

The time dilation of Arctis Tor and the shortcut through the Never Never, means Peabody leaves Edinburgh first, and catches up with the Senior Council on Demonreach. He leaves Demonreach and gets back before the Senior Council.

You're using your own speculation as a reference. Yes, there is a Way from Chicago to Arctis Tor but that does not mean there is a Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach. We don't know who was working with Peabody and was there with him on the island.

As for where Demonreach backs onto the NeverNever, I've no clue. But I've never made any assertions about it. Why would I need quotes to defend an argument I've never made?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 13, 2022, 10:40:31 PM
I'm not saying they couldn't find it, or didn't, there is the ruins of a settlement on it.  However unless you have it on a chart, it isn't going to be some you'd easily run across.  The Lakes are very large and can be very dangerous in storms. So if it is removed from charts for whatever reason, not easy to find.

There's several contexts of "finding it" under discussion, and it's worth clarifying what we are talking about.

Mundane folk need charts/maps, or aircraft/etc.  So far as we know, the White Council has effectively edited the island off all the charts & maps.  The WC may even have gotten things like satellite-overview to apply the same "editing" that military bases get, so it doesn't show that way.  It's likely that some local pilots know of it; short-haul passenger & cargo aircraft will occasionally catch sight, no doubt.  That's about it.

Wizards mostly seem to get there via Ways (except, for some reason, Harry Dresden(?!), who (despite owning the Ways of LeFey!!!) keeps taking a boat there!  I find that very odd indeed (I sense a spin-off thread in the offing)).  Wizards -- wardens of the prison -- have been getting to the island, and stashing prisoners, for... I dunno...  Centuries?  Millennia?  The prison on the island is O-L-D (in part, of course, because it was constructed via Time-based magic).

My point is:  wizards, so far as we know, have never had any particular challenge "finding" the island, in the "finding their way there" sense.  The only issue for wizards -- maybe -- is locating it, as in a location on a map.

My point (in this tangent) is -- wizards have not in fact had any particular challenge in finding the island, in that 2nd "on a mundane map" sense.  Only muggles are challenged (and even them, less and less so); but they have no particular desire regarding the island.  Wizards, OTOH, have an intense interest in it.
 
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 13, 2022, 10:49:56 PM
The only reference is from Small Favor.
Quote
“Cross into the Nevernever from where you’re standing?” Nicodemus asked. “You’d be better off asking the Russian to put a bullet through your head for you. I know what lives on the other side.”
Also in Small Favor is the ley line map that Harry uses to get to Demonreach the first time. Compiled by Listens To Wind.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on July 14, 2022, 12:01:09 AM
The only reference is from Small Favor.
n.b. that was the top of the island; not the entirety of it.
I doubt the same Nevernever location backs onto the dock-area, the ruins of the lakeside town, or the forested areas, or etc.

OTOH, I also doubt anyplace on Demonreach opens onto, y'know... a friendly, peaceful kind of place !

But in Turn Coat, Harry detects people arriving straight onto the island, out of the Nevernever.


Also in Small Favor is the ley line map that Harry uses to get to Demonreach the first time. Compiled by Listens To Wind.
Do we actually know that it's LTW's map, or only presume it?  But... in the end, is it relevant who made it, germane to this discussion?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 14, 2022, 01:00:56 AM
The map is in the text and it's provenance is given by Luccio. I'll leave it to you to decide if it's relevant.

Butcher's Rule. If there is a secret Harry won't know it but his enemies and almost everybody else will. However on what lies on the other side I have no idea, that is the only text I'm aware of that brings up the subject.


Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Arjan on July 14, 2022, 05:17:27 AM
n.b. that was the top of the island; not the entirety of it.
I doubt the same Nevernever location backs onto the dock-area, the ruins of the lakeside town, or the forested areas, or etc.

OTOH, I also doubt anyplace on Demonreach opens onto, y'know... a friendly, peaceful kind of place !

But in Turn Coat, Harry detects people arriving straight onto the island, out of the Nevernever.

Do we actually know that it's LTW's map, or only presume it?  But... in the end, is it relevant who made it, germane to this discussion?
Those could have een summoned.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2022, 10:04:09 AM
Quote
Wizards mostly seem to get there via Ways (except, for some reason, Harry Dresden(?!), who (despite owning the Ways of LeFey!!!) keeps taking a boat there!  I find that very odd indeed (I sense a spin-off thread in the offing)).  Wizards -- wardens of the prison -- have been getting to the island, and stashing prisoners, for... I dunno...  Centuries?  Millennia?  The prison on the island is O-L-D (in part, of course, because it was constructed via Time-based magic).

Perhaps because the Way to the island is most unpleasant and dangerous as eluded to by Rashid in Turn Coat.  No doubt Harry could find it and use it with his handy dandy GPS Way jewel, but not something he'd want to do everyday.  As pointed out, even the Senior Council chose conventional transport to the island instead of using the Way to it.  Also as we saw in Peabody's case, though he apparently brought the nasties in with him deliberately, there is a risk that some monsters can enter  with you when you open it.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 14, 2022, 09:05:04 PM
The nasties were Ice Spiders from Winter originally placed to stop Harry or others on the way from Edinburgh to Chicago, by Maeve. This confirms the Way to Demonreach is also in Winter.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 14, 2022, 09:52:30 PM
The nasties were Ice Spiders from Winter originally placed to stop Harry or others on the way from Edinburgh to Chicago, by Maeve. This confirms the Way to Demonreach is also in Winter.

And your evidence for this is what?  Apparently if she did it it wasn't very effective.  Rashid traveled to the island by a way with no problem.... And Peabody saw them as an assets.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 14, 2022, 11:46:04 PM
The nasties were Ice Spiders from Winter originally placed to stop Harry or others on the way from Edinburgh to Chicago, by Maeve. This confirms the Way to Demonreach is also in Winter.

Again, you have no evidence, just speculation. The spiders could have been summoned just like Binder's goons are. Maybe Peabody or his ally just had a standing pact with them like Eb with the bird guys in Changes. We just don't know enough to make conclusive statements.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Basil on July 15, 2022, 12:02:21 AM
Peabody set the spiders to watch the Way from Chicago to Scotland, not Mab. He's been wary of Dresden, since he was one of the few Wardens that Peabody couldn't influence.  They showed up to assist on the Island as well.  Even assuming the spiders are somehow associated with Winter, Mab was having quite a few rebel issues until Cold Days cleared that right up. 

I think Peadbody and Rashid know different Ways to the Island as evidenced that they arrived at different Island locations.  Keep in mind, that the Ways work as travel short cuts because different spots near each other in the Real World can be very far apart in the Never Never and vis versa. I don't think it's like a bus route where you get off at your stop.   

As for what is on the Other Side of the Island, I suspect it is the realm of Hades -- not the vault, but the prison.  Hades made it pretty clear how very similar Hades is to Dresden -- down to pet preferences. 



Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2022, 02:39:12 AM
Maeve was there in te background and she had summoned the spiders.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: JTass on July 15, 2022, 03:04:59 AM
OK, I just got my monthly credit from Audible yesterday and listened to The Law last night into today, so I'm coming a bit late to this party.

I have to say that right off the bat, there were a few things that really struck me in terms of Harry's attitude/behavior:
First off, Harry goes on and on about Trip's epic stupidity in not bowing to Harry's intimidation techniques. There are a couple of flaws in this train of thought. Harry relied almost entirely on his reputation to intimidate Trip. This fails magnificently when Trip either hasn't heard or doesn't believe the stories about the Wizard of Chicago.
The second time Harry threatens him, Trip hits the nail on the head when he says that he asked around about Harry, and everyone agrees that Harry is known for being a guy trying to be a White Hat, and that Harry doesn't have the stones to do anything more than rough him up a bit.

Secondly, for various reasons (PTSD, ethical conflict, battle fatigue, or whatever), Harry threatens Trip but has no intention of actually enforcing the consequences. The is either enormous stupidity or arrogance on Harry's part. Trip might not be the brightest bulb in the knife drawer, but he's cunning enough to recognize that Harry is bluffing.
In the same vein as the old saying "Never give an order that you know won't be obeyed," one should never make a threat without being willing to follow through on it. If someone calls your bluff, it makes you look weak and reduces your credibility.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 15, 2022, 02:47:55 PM
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I have to say that right off the bat, there were a few things that really struck me in terms of Harry's attitude/behavior:
First off, Harry goes on and on about Trip's epic stupidity in not bowing to Harry's intimidation techniques. There are a couple of flaws in this train of thought. Harry relied almost entirely on his reputation to intimidate Trip. This fails magnificently when Trip either hasn't heard or doesn't believe the stories about the Wizard of Chicago.

Harry's mistake was not taking into account the Supernatural world and the government's attempt to explain away what happened.  Hence the explanation that basically something was in the air and water that cause hallucinations, so don't believe your lying eyes.. So Trip's reaction, "oh it's the heebie jeebies, this isn't real got to go and lie down now."  So in a sense since Harry most likely had some say in the coverup he was hoisted by his own petard when Trip failed be scared and instead fell back on the idea that he was suffering from a from of PTSD flashback and needed to go take a nap.
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Secondly, for various reasons (PTSD, ethical conflict, battle fatigue, or whatever), Harry threatens Trip but has no intention of actually enforcing the consequences. The is either enormous stupidity or arrogance on Harry's part. Trip might not be the brightest bulb in the knife drawer, but he's cunning enough to recognize that Harry is bluffing.
Or what he recognized was, Harry wasn't a killer, because Trip is a killer, so it takes one to know one I guess, but at the same time he failed to recognize how dangerous Harry is... A lot of Trip's language was straight out of "The God Father," he is very much in the mold of the guy that married the Godfather's daughter at the beginning of both the movie and the book. He is a real bully,jerk, small time crook, not someone with brains.  Cunning isn't exactly the same as smart, being cunning enabled Trip to exploit women for his own gain, but if he were really smart he wouldn't have ended up swimming with the fishes,courtesy the St Louis Mob. ::)
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on July 29, 2022, 10:09:24 PM
Hello everyone!
I just finished reading The Law (kindle version). I have not read this thread yet because I wanted to comment without any influence. Obviously SPOILERS AHEAD
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I liked the general plot and I was very glad to have Harry back in action, especially in the PI business. Still, I think some things were off, especially at the beginning. Particularly, Harry seemed too undecided, between being a harsh, cold bully (which he claims to hate) and being regretful of all the spilled blood in the battle, and therefore going to peace. I mean, I understand the general demeanor is "I can be violent, but not a killer" but still felt weird.
I also think that the relationship with Marcone is weird. It should not be a revelation for anyone, let alone Harry himself, that he respected Marcone and Marcone respected him. Still, Harry has ground to treat him with comptempt. Yes, Marcone fought for Chicago, he risked his own life to save a lot of lives. But he also exploits many of those lives, he is a gangster, not Father Forthill  :)
I also thought that in the meeting Dresden was generous with them, they all owed him more than what they gave him. Dresden saved the life of the man, that should have some merit. I am glad Marcone did not ask for the life of the hag, I wish Harry had thanked him for that after Mab left. (I am not schizophrenic about Marcone, I just try to see the whole picture. The man is amazing, he is clever, ruthless, brave and fair according to his own code, but he is also a criminal. I acknowledge the good things he does).

Things I liked a lot:
   No Maggie  :P
   Bob
   Paranoid Gary and Will
   A Mister cameo
   Harry actually checking to see if Maya was not tricking him. 
   A reference to the search for Justine.
   Max! I loved him (Max Valerous has to be a fake name, right? Like the man is a Palladin, with a D&D name).
 I actually will be happy to read some stories about Max in the future. He could be a good friend of Michael. Perhaps Jim could one day make a collection of short stories about people "touched" by Dresden, where Dresden appears and is an important character, but it is not the main one, and not the narrator. We could have Marcone, Will, Paranoid Gary, Butters, 
Goodman Gray, Lara, Max, a random police officer (perhaps the one that cameos here), Fitz, Morty and yes, Maggie. We lack women, so perhaps Gard instead of Marcone. (Sidhe are complicated, I do not want to see Elaine, and there are no other interesting women).

Other things I did not like
Woman punished for taking revenge against a jerk (I agree in universe she should, they are good reasons, but I still wish the men acknowledged more of what the jerk did to her, and took that in consideration for lessening her punishement. The meeting where there were many men deciding things and she was not even able to speak was cringeworthy, even if the final decision went to a woman).
Bob not realizing Talvi Inverno meant Winter Winter, so obviously a vassal or something from Winter.



Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on July 29, 2022, 10:16:18 PM
No Mouse, but we get introduced to a Basset Hound Peppermint, a friend for Mouse? No Toot so this must be set more than 2 weeks before Little Things. Marcone’s reaction to losing the Castle to Harry strongly suggests he was not responsible for the Boom, especially after a car bomb attempt on the Munstermobile ended badly for him. He never repeats a mistake. The Merlin is even more strongly a candidate for that.

We don’t see the Gargoyles, obviously they are being saved for NEXT BOOK.

I think Nameless and Ms Laplander and Max will likely end up in Goodman Grey’s stories, and The Law is a good way of introducing them to the Dresdenverse. Max I think will be in NEXT BOOK following his invitation to Game Knight (you bet everyone is calling it that behind Harry’s back).

Sorry about the double post. I began watching the thread and I wanted to say that Game Knight is perfect  :)
Also, if it is true that we will have Goodman Grey stories, Max will be a given, I agree.

Yes, he does, and at that point in time, he is dealing with his grief and injuries, the castle is still
being repaired and remodeled.  So in many ways it would be best if she remain at the Carpenters for the moment.  Notice Mouse isn't at the castle either, he is with her.  Except for Marcone's threat to sic the city health department on him, Mouse isn't mentioned either.
What? Marcone did not dare to threat Mouse, I am sure?
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 29, 2022, 11:18:40 PM
Try looking up Valerious Maximus, a Roman, Harry would be familiar with the name as his works are heavily used in teaching Latin.

Marcone threatened McAnally’s the pub, not Mouse the pup, a poster reading too late.

A couple of revelations about Nameless which link into the files.

1. Nameless worked with (not for) Kemmler. This is the first instance of an associate of Kemmler NOT being a Kemmlerite. This is important, Nameless would have known about Bob and the information he contained about The Word, and given what he is would have been dismissive of the Kemmlerites. There is exactly one other character who also fulfills those criteria. COWL.

2. Nameless was kicked out of Arctis Tor after the attack on it, suggesting he was complicit in it, we know that attack was by the Circle /Black Council and we know COWL is a member.

On this basis I have put forward the theory that Nameless is Cowl. We have for years been saying that this or that  character is/was Cowl, but what if we met Cowl first? That Cowl in his actual persona been keeping out of Harry’s orbit but close enough to keep an eye on the Wizard who has unexpectedly ruined his plans before? Harry only went to the Gold Coast to visit Thomas and Justine, and the last time he was there he and Eb were attacked by Outsiders. Was Nameless or Laplander responsible for whistling them in? Was Nameless colluding with Nemesis?

Cowl provided the infected Athame which infected Lea in Grave Peril, he adopted the disguise to avoid being recognised. Lea would have recognised him from Winter if he were Nameless, and using magic to disguise himself would have made his stick out like a sore thumb. He was also delivering the Sword to Mavra as part of a wider exchange and was responsible for an unspecified gift to Mr Ferro.

Mavra wanted Harry to find The Word in Dead Beat, but no one, not Mavra or Cowl knew Bob contained the Word, so Mavra may have been working for Cowl.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on July 30, 2022, 12:02:04 AM
Thank you, I just finished the thread. I am now aware of the confussion about Mouse. I still find weird that Marcone chose to threat the pub. I mean, we know he would never threat a child, so Maggie is safe. And he would not threat Eb because he is too powerful, but he could threat any other of Harry's allies. Probably not the Knights (Namshiel is not stupid) but the Alphas, Morty, Lamar, Rawlins, the paranetters, Gary, Forthill. For different reasons, I would think it is OOC for Marcone to do something to most of them, but he could have make the threat knowing how Dresden would react. But McAnally's? Accorded neutral territory? Protected by the placard, I believe? With an angelic owner? And a place of reunion for many supernatural folks? It is weird. 

I saw your theory about Cowl. It is possible, but my main objection is that I believed Harry knew Cowl before. I mean, he thought Cowl was hiding his identity because he knew him. And Harry never met the nameless son until now.

By the way, I loved that Harry used his brain in this novella. Like Mira, I thought the novella got better with time and for me in part was for that. In the beginning is as @JTass said, Harry seemed weird making not credible threats.

Oh, I wished we had seen at least a glimpse of Inverno after being defeated again for an (alleged) mortal.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 30, 2022, 12:04:58 AM
Mavra wanted Harry to find The Word in Dead Beat, but no one, not Mavra or Cowl knew Bob contained the Word, so Mavra may have been working for Cowl.
Cowl knew evil Bob  resided within Bob and thus had the Word Of  Kemmler.  It's why he took Bob from Murphy's house. He didn't need the book.

This was what Marva feared.
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I've read Kemmler's book. I know how the Darkhallow works. And I know how to turn necromancy against the Black Court."
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 30, 2022, 12:33:47 AM
Exactly, he didn’t know Harry had Bob but Harry carelessly left him out in Murphy’s, Cowl saw Bob, recognised him and couldn’t believe his luck, he had The Word, without having to retrieve the actual document.

My guess is that people were aware Kemmler had a stash and thought that Bob was part of the stash, so they were looking for the stash rather than Bob specifically, however Justin took Bob on the defeat of Kemmler,  (which means Justin and Cowl were not working together, Justin must have been working for someone else) When Boney Tony found the stash everyone was alerted a copy of The Word existed and converged on Chicago.

It is worrying that Kemmler had his stash in Chicago, relatively close to Demonreach and likely birthplace of the Starborn of the next cycle. Unlikely to be a coincidence.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: vincentric on July 30, 2022, 01:07:26 AM
Exactly, he didn’t know Harry had Bob but Harry carelessly left him out in Murphy’s, Cowl saw Bob, recognised him and couldn’t believe his luck, he had The Word, without having to retrieve the actual document.

My guess is that people were aware Kemmler had a stash and thought that Bob was part of the stash, so they were looking for the stash rather than Bob specifically, however Justin took Bob on the defeat of Kemmler,  (which means Justin and Cowl were not working together, Justin must have been working for someone else) When Boney Tony found the stash everyone was alerted a copy of The Word existed and converged on Chicago.

It is worrying that Kemmler had his stash in Chicago, relatively close to Demonreach and likely birthplace of the Starborn of the next cycle. Unlikely to be a coincidence.

Has to be a big coincidence doesn't it? After all Kemmler doesn't know where Demonreach is located so stashing his stuff in Chicago was just too lucky :P
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 30, 2022, 06:14:55 AM
The stash as you call it was hidden somewhere, it doesn't say where. It may have been Justin's from the attack on Kemmler, and the book doesn't speak to the location of Justin's lair. The book suggests that Cowl knew Harry had Bob and he followed him when he had to abandon ship and take Bob away from the safety of his threshold. Here's the relevant quote.
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"You still don't have the Word. How are you going to manage the Darkhallow without it?"

For an answer, Cowl carefully lowered the hammer on my revolver and turned away. And he laughed, quietly, under his breath.
This is just after Kumori has taken Bob from the kitchen.

I doubt you'll agree with this but PG and DB are complementary. DB actually gives the reason for the attack on Arctis Tor. And there are at least two ways that Cowl could have known that Harry possessed Bob.

Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on July 30, 2022, 10:01:00 AM
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The stash as you call it was hidden somewhere, it doesn't say where. It may have been Justin's from the attack on Kemmler, and the book doesn't speak to the location of Justin's lair. The book suggests that Cowl knew Harry had Bob and he followed him when he had to abandon ship and take Bob away from the safety of his threshold. Here's the relevant quote.

Or it could have been a very good guess.  Or better yet, like Justin, Cowl may have been a Warden before he went warlock, or he could have gotten inside information from Peabody if he was corrupted that early.  If he had inside information, Cowl would know that the Wardens didn't recover Bob when they killed Kemmler.  Who that we know of retired not long after that? Justin. Cowl may have known about that as well as know about the adoption of Harry and Elaine and why Justin adopted them.  He would also know because of his inside information that after Harry killed Justin and Elaine fled, again no Bob was found.  For some reason he didn't believe that Elaine had him, so that would leave Harry.  So he had Harry closely watched after that, and after Harry was on his own Bob was allowed out of his skull once in a while on missions.. That wouldn't go unnoticed by Cowl or his spy.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on July 30, 2022, 04:09:04 PM
There are a thousand ways to interpret what happened.  So any or all of that could be true. Butcher sketches a story and lets the reader add color and detail with their imaginations.

What the text implies directly is that Cowl knew Harry had Bob and under what conditions Harry would expose him in a way that would let Cowl obtain him.  Cowl never sought either of the two books in the same sense as the other Necromancers. As the leader of the Black Council, of who we assume that Peabody is a member, he had access to the source of one of the books, Peabody.  There is a antagonist who knew about Bob.  Lash. 

One of the more interesting things in the book at second glance is how well Lash can manipulate Harry's reality. Harry receives a phone call from her.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on July 30, 2022, 09:39:08 PM
Yes, the Lasciel manipulation was so well done. Well, as most things. Jim is a wonderful author.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Snark Knight on July 31, 2022, 02:38:03 AM
Harry only went to the Gold Coast to visit Thomas and Justine, and the last time he was there he and Eb were attacked by Outsiders. Was Nameless or Laplander responsible for whistling them in?

I'm not sure either of them qualify as enough of a free-willed mortal to summon Outsiders.

As a scion of a dark god and a mortal, Nameless might have qualified ... before completing whatever ascension his 'apotheosis' entailed. But if a scion turns himself into something entirely inhuman, doesn't that count as Choosing the immortal side of your parentage?

It's not totally clear whether hags (I'm figuring the Scandinavian ones are presumably cousins of the Hecatean hags from Welcome to the Jungle) are dark witches who've enhanced themselves, or something entirely inhuman. She'd probably have a better chance of being able summon Outsiders than Nameless, though.

Nonetheless, I still doubt Nameless and Laplander are Cowl and Kumori.  Kumori at least thinks she's a well-intentioned extremist - she used necromancy to save life, and she talked to Harry after getting the drop on him instead of just blasting him in the back. Ms. Laplander is just going through life looking for excuses to do violence, and Bob's analysis suggests that's entirely normal for what she is - it's not Nemfection twisting her, or a personal grudge Harry foiled the Darkhallow.  And Nameless himself doesn't have any good reason to explain having been plugged in to the White Council's Warden files on Harry and wondering what all the fuss is about. Nameless might well be involved with the Circle, but it doesn't seem credible he's been posing as human to infiltrate the Council and get high-clearance insider information.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on July 31, 2022, 04:17:58 AM
Yes, I do not think Lapland is Kumari.
Your comment reminded me something else. I am always disgusted when Harry seems too ignorant. For a person who mentioned having been a magic nerd, who had an spirit of intellect for many years, his culture has some holes. For example, he did not know the word "apotheosis".
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 31, 2022, 03:22:17 PM
I never said Laplander is Kumori. She would have been a potential liability in Dead Beat, see how she flew off the handle in The Law, that is something Harry will doubtlessly exploit in future. Nameless wouldn’t allow her off the leash as he did Kumori to run around on her own.

Cowl and Kumori have not been seen together since Dead Beat, nothing to suggest they are still working together. Nameless may have been owed a favour now discharged. That’s the Winter Winter way.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on August 01, 2022, 04:52:16 PM
... I am always disgusted when Harry seems too ignorant. For a person who mentioned having been a magic nerd, who had an spirit of intellect for many years, his culture has some holes. For example, he did not know the word "apotheosis".

I think we can take it as given that Justin gave a highly-edited & intentionally-incommplete sort of training to Harry & Elaine.

Almost nothing on mind-magic, to leave them maximally-vulnerable to Enthrallment.  Nothing about the White Council, so they never developed curiosity there, or considered it as a place they might seek shelter/protection.  Little to nothing about other supernatural powers of the world -- we see Bob tutor Harry on these elements repeatedly.

And then Eb felt that what Harry really needed was to have his character rebuilt, his moral compass, his soul.  Eb didn't provide very much more magical training, though he did bring Harry to WC meetings &c.

So whenever Harry seems oddly-ignorant, I chalk it up to this factor (and usually pause to wonder, how did this bit of ignorance feature into Justin's plans?).

But sometimes, people just have an odd gap in their knowledge.


Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on August 01, 2022, 05:58:54 PM
I think we can take it as given that Justin gave a highly-edited & intentionally-incommplete sort of training to Harry & Elaine.

Almost nothing on mind-magic, to leave them maximally-vulnerable to Enthrallment.  Nothing about the White Council, so they never developed curiosity there, or considered it as a place they might seek shelter/protection.  Little to nothing about other supernatural powers of the world -- we see Bob tutor Harry on these elements repeatedly.

And then Eb felt that what Harry really needed was to have his character rebuilt, his moral compass, his soul.  Eb didn't provide very much more magical training, though he did bring Harry to WC meetings &c.

So whenever Harry seems oddly-ignorant, I chalk it up to this factor (and usually pause to wonder, how did this bit of ignorance feature into Justin's plans?).

But sometimes, people just have an odd gap in their knowledge.

Well, in the case of Harry and Elaine, Justin had no intention of teaching them about the White Council, I doubt that he taught them much about the Seven Laws either.  His intention was to raise up a couple of trained enforcers to serve whatever his cause was [which is still unclear] I also think they were expendable as far as he was concerned. Their training reflects all of that.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: morriswalters on August 01, 2022, 08:57:33 PM
Yes, I do not think Lapland is Kumari.
Your comment reminded me something else. I am always disgusted when Harry seems too ignorant. For a person who mentioned having been a magic nerd, who had an spirit of intellect for many years, his culture has some holes. For example, he did not know the word "apotheosis".
Obviously you never had a self directed education of the type Harry did. Given his background I would expect gaps in his vocabulary. Butcher established this type of thing when he gave Harry Latin lessons and a G.E.D.
Well, in the case of Harry and Elaine, Justin had no intention of teaching them about the White Council, I doubt that he taught them much about the Seven Laws either.  His intention was to raise up a couple of trained enforcers to serve whatever his cause was [which is still unclear] I also think they were expendable as far as he was concerned. Their training reflects all of that.
I doubt he considered Harry as expendable. The Black Council and many of Harry's so called friends exerted some serious effort to make Harry a weapon.  You can get muscle anywhere, but you can't just walk down to your local manpower agency and lease a monster. They take some serious planning as Butcher has pushed out over and  over again.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on August 01, 2022, 11:52:23 PM
g33k, you are right, Justin education explains many of the gaps in Harry's knowledge of the magical world. But he told us several times that he studied, that he was a sort of magical nerd. And he has Bob for questions. I find weird that he does not know that particular world, but of course, it may be that I am in the wrong and the word is not as common as I imagine, unless you have an specific background (or saw a picture called "The apotheosis of the dollar" when you were a chiild, as I did  :D)
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 02, 2022, 01:36:53 AM
Harry was being prepared as weapon, The Destroyer. Elaine was a way to keep Harry in check.

I am not sure Harry’s will can be fully suborned, no one has ever succeeded and as Starborn he is immune to Outsider influence. Harry has also broken through prophecy, curses and other forms of predestination, he even confuses the Gatekeeper at times creating a flux in probability. In that case what is left is to manipulate those persons whom Harry loves in order to manipulate Harry.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Mira on August 02, 2022, 04:00:53 PM
g33k, you are right, Justin education explains many of the gaps in Harry's knowledge of the magical world. But he told us several times that he studied, that he was a sort of magical nerd. And he has Bob for questions. I find weird that he does not know that particular world, but of course, it may be that I am in the wrong and the word is not as common as I imagine, unless you have an specific background (or saw a picture called "The apotheosis of the dollar" when you were a chiild, as I did  :D)

But Harry also says he is lazy, that up until the time he took on Molly as an apprentice he did only as much as he needed to go get by.  Yeah, if he was interested like in fire magic and some in earth magic he applied himself more.  However for things like veils he did only what he needed to do to get by, that has changed somewhat, his veils have improved as a consequence of being Molly's master.  His Latin has also improved.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Dina on August 02, 2022, 04:42:14 PM
Yes, that is all true.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 02, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
One wonders what all the mediation Harry is undertaking in Little Things is for. The Law makes it clear he isn’t sleeping and has now fully equipped his personal armaments, and he is stymied on the Thomas and Justine situation, so I think he is doing something, something big, and something he hasn’t done before and which might impress even Eb.

I think he is moving the access point of the Castle from Leas Murder Garden in the Never Never to somewhere a bit safer, as a panic room for Maggie. The Winter Knights quarters in Arctis Tor, deep in Winter. I think having Toot and the Za Guard move in was to aid this,  they are Winters Soldiers so both are now fortresses of Winter staffed by Winters warriors and both contain the personal quarters of the Winter Knight. Is so that is a feat we have only seen someone at Leas power level or above achieve. Mab almost certainly helped with Hades Vault.

If that works then if the Castle is under attack, Maggie and Mouse go to Arctis Tor under Mab’s protection as the child of her Vassal, and Harry is free to wreak havoc on the intruders.

I have posited that Arctis Tor also contains the access point for Demonreach in Mab’s Ice Garden, which the Gatekeeper and Mab used Harry might not realise this. When he does he can parkour along the corridors of Arctis Tor to Demonreach in a couple of minutes to get crystals or superweapons.

The other thing he is probably working on is how to teleport himself and the bad guys to the Lakeshore so he can summon Alfred. Water grounds magic so it might be a bit risky teleporting over a large body of water. That would explain why Demonreach is on an island. It strikes me that following The Law there is a nice Lake Shore residence whose owner has gone missing and won’t be missed, which would be ideal to set a circle up on.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: Fcrate on August 02, 2022, 06:04:01 PM
g33k, you are right, Justin education explains many of the gaps in Harry's knowledge of the magical world. But he told us several times that he studied, that he was a sort of magical nerd. And he has Bob for questions. I find weird that he does not know that particular world, but of course, it may be that I am in the wrong and the word is not as common as I imagine, unless you have an specific background (or saw a picture called "The apotheosis of the dollar" when you were a chiild, as I did  :D)
Well, his knowledge gap never surprised me as much as the non-existent gap in his knowledge of pop culture. He knows too many references by heart for someone who 1. Doesn't have much time. 2. Can't use technology.
Title: Re: The Law
Post by: g33k on August 02, 2022, 10:01:09 PM
Well, in the case of Harry and Elaine, Justin had no intention of teaching them about the White Council, I doubt that he taught them much about the Seven Laws either...

Oh, no... he had every intention of teaching them about the White Council... as dangerous enemies.

He would do that immediately after getting them both completely Enthralled.

As for the "Laws of Magic," I expect the curriculum there was "... more like guidelines, really."  He doesn't want them powering-up their OWN mojo until after Enthrallment, lest they resist him; and Lawbreaking is a quick path to power.  So he would likely have carefully explained those as very-risky "advanced magic" (that he'd teach them later (and he would have)).