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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on June 28, 2022, 07:31:12 AM
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Rome conquered the Meditteranean and then some and arguably laster longer than classical Greece ever did. It would be a massive plot and narrative hole for the pantheon that ruled the Mediterranean to be ignored.
So I imagine we'll get some of these answered during the wrestling book, but how does Zeus vs Jupiter work out.
Is it like Vadderungs identities switching back and forth between Kringle and Odin?
Or did some of the ROmans take out Greek gods and assumed their mantles.
Now the latter might be a bit out there but here me out.
Ares vs Mars are two completely different Gods. Ares is a brutish thug the worst aspects of war. Athena was for strategies, wisdom, honour, valor etc. (Also the protogod before Bonea)
Mars however is a general, a soldier and patron of Rome. I could totally see a story where Mars killed the God of War one halloween and assumed his Mantle. As long as his name isn't Kratos copy right should be fine.
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Except that Zeus and Jupiter are the same god, the Romans adopted most of the Greek gods along with their mythology with name changes.
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Same with the Etruscans, which is likely the White Courts origins.
They generally added the entire pantheon under new names to their existing gods.
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It is more complicated than that. Sometimes a god was imported but often a local god was identified as a Roman god. That happened everywhere in the Roman Empire. That way you got a multitude of local varieties of the same god with different rituals and stories.
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It is more complicated than that. Sometimes a god was imported but often a local god was identified as a Roman god. That happened everywhere in the Roman Empire. That way you got a multitude of local varieties of the same god with different rituals and stories.
True, but in the case of the Greek verses Roman, the names get changed but the myths remain almost the same.
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True, but in the case of the Greek verses Roman, the names get changed but the myths remain almost the same.
Except -- as-noted in the OP -- Mars is much more a "war god" in the model of Athena, than of Ares.
I'm voting for Jim to make this being transgender, or other non-binary! ;D
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True, but in the case of the Greek verses Roman, the names get changed but the myths remain almost the same.
Even within Greece local gods were identified with the dominant one but local traditions were kept. Artemis of Ephesus was a totally different person than Artemis of Sparta.
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Even within Greece local gods were identified with the dominant one but local traditions were kept. Artemis of Ephesus was a totally different person than Artemis of Sparta.
Google
Artemis Orthia is most likely a merge of Artemis and Orthia, a Spartan winged animal goddess of women and fertility (National Museums Liverpool, ...
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Except -- as-noted in the OP -- Mars is much more a "war god" in the model of Athena, than of Ares.
I'm voting for Jim to make this being transgender, or other non-binary! ;D
Tough, Jim already did this, the Etruscan God of War is Laran. The White Court uses Etruscan and therefore most likely has its roots in that culture. Eros child of Aphrodite and Ares is the Etruscan deity Erus, whom the Romans called Amor (where has that popped up). Likely therefore the Whites are a corruption of the line of Erus, and Lara is named for her grandfather or Great-grandfather Laran. Lord Raith didn’t allow his sons to live that long, so he wasn’t going to give them a name of significance. Raith was so powerful perhaps because he was the offspring of Erus, if his siblings died then their descendants would be a tier less powerful and likely the heads of the other Houses.
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Google
That happened all the time with most gods in Greece. That is why these gods have different second names depending on the local tradition.
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Tough, Jim already did this, the Etruscan God of War is Laran. The White Court uses Etruscan and therefore most likely has its roots in that culture. Eros child of Aphrodite and Ares is the Etruscan deity Erus, whom the Romans called Amor (where has that popped up). Likely therefore the Whites are a corruption of the line of Erus, and Lara is named for her grandfather or Great-grandfather Laran. Lord Raith didn’t allow his sons to live that long, so he wasn’t going to give them a name of significance. Raith was so powerful perhaps because he was the offspring of Erus, if his siblings died then their descendants would be a tier less powerful and likely the heads of the other Houses.
I don't think the Etruscan Laran (& the Whamps) really impacts what Jim might write about Mars/Ares/Athena as the "same" god/dess (or not-the-same). The Etruscans appear to be rather different, without the numerous Greco=Roman identities.
Also, barring info from WoJ's, I think we're inching out onto very-thin branches of speculation, based on no more than the Whamps' use of the Etruscan language. Mind you... I suspect you're right (or at least, speculating in the right directions).
I don't think individual Whamps live as long as that (i.e. centuries, not millenia); but again, I'm not sure we have solid info on this, neither DV canonical story nor WoJ.
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The Etruscan appear to be rather different, without the numerous Greco=Roman identities.
They would be different, they predate both the Roman and Greek civilizations. If anything the Romans borrowed some stuff from them.
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Jim has been keeping away deliberately from the origins of the White Court, whereas we have been given those of both the Red and Black Courts.
I find that suspicious.
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Jim has been keeping away deliberately from the origins of the White Court, whereas we have been given those of both the Red and Black Courts.
I find that suspicious.
Well we might get more in 12 months or in the courtship of Lara.
But yes the various different local gods bordering on spirits is another example of interpretations of the Olympians.
Romans converted a bunch of Gallic Sun Gods and named them 'Local Apollo' or Apollo and the region of Gaul.
In Iron Druid both Roman and Greek gods are Seperate Pantheons both inhabiting different planes of Mt Olympus.
But yes. Greek Gods get a lot more play in mythological retelling than their Roman counterparts but the Roman counterparts ruled the Mediteranean for 700 years or so.
Personally I think they're just putting on different hats the way Vadderung does.
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... they predate both the Roman and Greek civilizations. If anything the Romans borrowed some stuff from them.
Not so (for the first bit).
The Etruscans were essentially contemporaneous with the ancient (pre-Republic) Kingdom of Rome; the Republic stage of Rome saw the end of the Etruscans as rivals of theirs. The Romans definitely borrowed from the Etruscans (several loan-words have been documented, for example). It may well have gone both ways, but we know a LOT more about the Romans. Etruscan "borrowings" from Rome -- if any (I assert the extreme likelihood thereof) -- are AFAIK lost to the ravages of time and Empire.
Mycenean Greece predates both; then Greece had a fragmented "Dark Age" for some centuries. The "Archaic Greek" era and the rise of the "Polis" city-state model in Greece was, again, roughly contemporaneous with the early Etruscans & Romans.
(I am unclear how much of this historical trivia is relevant to the Dresdenverse; but, see below!)
Jim has been keeping away deliberately from the origins of the White Court, whereas we have been given those of both the Red and Black Courts.
I find that suspicious.
This is... an excellent point.
Given that we learned relatively long-ago that the Whamp "court language" was Etruscan, the lack of further info is indeed "suspicious" (OTOH, I wouldn't put it past Jim to simply be holding this back in order to provoke speculation, as a red-herring sort of thing).
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Mycenean Greece predates both; then Greece had a fragmented "Dark Age" for some centuries. The "Archaic Greek" era and the rise of the "Polis" city-state model in Greece was, again, roughly contemporaneous with the early Etruscans & Romans.
(I am unclear how much of this historical trivia is relevant to the Dresdenverse; but, see below!)
I believe it is, because of the glimpse Harry had in the inadvertent soul gaze with that Kraken
back in Peace Talks.. The question is how?
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Giant octopus would be mortal and sentient, Harry could probably soulgaze a chimp, orangutan or Gorrilla, Dolphins probably not, not because they are nor sentient mortals but the eyes are wrongly placed, with a vet different field of vision.
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Giant octopus would be mortal and sentient, Harry could probably soulgaze a chimp, orangutan or Gorrilla, Dolphins probably not, not because they are nor sentient mortals but the eyes are wrongly placed, with a vet different field of vision.
No, not the same, do octopus have souls? If I remember correctly he attempted to soul gaze Terra West, or wanted to and the answer was it wouldn't happen because she wasn't human. What he saw was a classical ancient landscape, memories. Since the Fomor kidnap mortal children and change them genetically over time, it says this creature was once human.
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If you start a soul gaze with someone without a soul it does not mean nothing will happen. In some cases you open yourself for attack. Try soulgaze a red court vampire for example.
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If you start a soul gaze with someone without a soul it does not mean nothing will happen. In some cases you open yourself for attack. Try soulgaze a red court vampire for example.
But Red Court vampires were human once, before they were infected.
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But Red Court vampires were human once, before they were infected.
The first time Harry met Mab -- before the iron-nail / unmasking interaction -- she tried to entice him into a soulgaze, and he declined... in part, because he was already pretty sure she wasn't mortal, and knew that trying to soulgaze some nonhuman entities could be very dangerous for a mortal.
If Harry had accepted the soulgaze with Mab, I don't think we know what would have happened; not nothing, I presume (or Mab would not have offered). Mab was also human once; but there's not very much of that person left.
Blampires are former-humans, but are emphatically not human any longer. Their gaze is dangerous... trying to soulgaze one would likely be an invitation to become their thrall.
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Not so (for the first bit).
The Etruscans were essentially contemporaneous with the ancient (pre-Republic) Kingdom of Rome; the Republic stage of Rome saw the end of the Etruscans as rivals of theirs. The Romans definitely borrowed from the Etruscans (several loan-words have been documented, for example). It may well have gone both ways, but we know a LOT more about the Romans. Etruscan "borrowings" from Rome -- if any (I assert the extreme likelihood thereof) -- are AFAIK lost to the ravages of time and Empire.
Mycenean Greece predates both; then Greece had a fragmented "Dark Age" for some centuries. The "Archaic Greek" era and the rise of the "Polis" city-state model in Greece was, again, roughly contemporaneous with the early Etruscans & Romans.
(I am unclear how much of this historical trivia is relevant to the Dresdenverse; but, see below!)
This is... an excellent point.
Given that we learned relatively long-ago that the Whamp "court language" was Etruscan, the lack of further info is indeed "suspicious" (OTOH, I wouldn't put it past Jim to simply be holding this back in order to provoke speculation, as a red-herring sort of thing).
We haven't deciphered much of Etruscan as of yet, but I think they are hopeful a they find more stuff.
I think it is interesting that we know very little of White Court origins. I suspect that they are the offspring of a powerful Etruscan wizard that "did a deal."
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The first time Harry met Mab -- before the iron-nail / unmasking interaction -- she tried to entice him into a soulgaze, and he declined... in part, because he was already pretty sure she wasn't mortal, and knew that trying to soulgaze some nonhuman entities could be very dangerous for a mortal.
If Harry had accepted the soulgaze with Mab, I don't think we know what would have happened; not nothing, I presume (or Mab would not have offered). Mab was also human once; but there's not very much of that person left.
Blampires are former-humans, but are emphatically not human any longer. Their gaze is dangerous... trying to soulgaze one would likely be an invitation to become their thrall.
But doesn't mean there isn't enough human left for a soul gaze.. There is still a hint of human in Mab, we saw that in a second of weakness after Maeve died in Cold Days. Harry saw it and Kringle warned him never to let her or anyone else know that he saw it.
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About the nameless one. It has been shown that Harry Dresden has the ability to put a name to things. Names that stick. Off the top of my head, see the over reaction to giving a wrong - shortened name - to an angel.
Is the nameless Mr Winter in danger from Harry. Or does he crave a name from someone who cam give him a NAME?
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About the nameless one. It has been shown that Harry Dresden has the ability to put a name to things. Names that stick. Off the top of my head, see the over reaction to giving a wrong - shortened name - to an angel.
Is the nameless Mr Winter in danger from Harry. Or does he crave a name from someone who cam give him a NAME?
Harry generally gives names for two reasons, affection or to mock and belittle an foe. Now I am not sure if he will attempt it with a demi-god, but he did give an archangel a nick name so one never knows.
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We haven't deciphered much of Etruscan as of yet, but I think they are hopeful a they find more stuff.
I'm a bit dubious that there is (very much) left *to* find. The region has been extensively explored for *millenia* and is one of the very first regions where exploitative collectors and proto-archaeologists (generally Brit's) were active from the mid-1700s onwards.
I honestly suspect the Romans pursued a policy of "erasure;" perhaps not consciously, but in the way "systemic" social & related policies, biased administrators, and similar elements can have the same effect.
I think it is interesting that we know very little of White Court origins. I suspect that they are the offspring of a powerful Etruscan wizard that "did a deal."
The Ramps & the Whamps have that similar element: some non-human "thing" exists in them, that cannot get full expression until they kill.
I suspect that Jim won't write a same-y "some wizard done F'ed up" backstory for both of them, but yes: I suspect one of them will be a result of some long-ago wizard(s). I can make (what I feel are) excellent cases for each one being "a wizard F-up," but my bet is for it to be the Whamp origin-story (I think I'll launch a new thread on the topic, it's very-tangential to this one).
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Harry generally gives names for two reasons, affection or to mock and belittle an foe. Now I am not sure if he will attempt it with a demi-god, but he did give an archangel a nick name so one never knows.
He has already given Nameless a name.
Cowl.
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He has already given Nameless a name.
Cowl.
You think the lawyers Cowl?
huh good theory.
Dunno if I agree with it yet and as it stand I could poke holes through it like cheddar cheese but good theory nonetheless.
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1. Nameless worked with (and not for) Kemmler, and Cowl knew exactly what Bob was in Dead Beat, and what information he might contain;
2. Cowl adopted his namesake Cowl at the Vampire Party in Grave Peril, the Leansidhe was there and would have recognised him otherwise. He would have attracted her attention with an glamour in a crowd where nobody else was using an glamour.
3. Nameless was paperclipped into Winter, but this may have been an ulterior motive to get inside Winter to set up the attack on Lea, and the attack on Arctis Tor (after which Nameless was expelled), by the Circle.
4. The items in Nameless office include a (bear) skull used to summon a spirit, and an evil looking dagger. Both items associated with Cowl’s previous appearances.
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Oh Cowl, yet another plot thread that has gone missing from the fabric of this series... :-\
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Oh Cowl, yet another plot thread that has gone missing from the fabric of this series... :-\
Or has he? If Nameless is Cowl then is is aware that Mab suspects him of involvement in Arctis Tor at the very least, so he has been keeping a low profile, he would rather use an intermediary not part of Winter, preferably a mortal to advance his Agenda.
I rather think Listen has been working with Nameless, or at least under his instruction. It’s how Listen knew to attack The Carpenters, he still has contacts within Winter and would know about the protection detail, and maybe even Maggie. Hell Mab might have leaked him the info to find out whether he was tied to the Fomor, or not. It’s her style, then tipped off Molly. Ethnui and the Fomor would dismiss Harry as insignificant. Cowl on the other hand has had plans ruined by Harry before, so would not dismiss him as insignificant and put in a contingency plan led by his handpicked wet works man to prevent him doing it again.
If that is the case then Nameless/Cowl has been active in Dresden’s life from just before Bombshells right through to Battle Ground through Listen, where we weren’t aware of it. During this period he was working for Marcone, when Marcone was putting up significant opposition to the Fomor. If locked out from Winter, Marcone makes the next best target.