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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: JTass on June 24, 2022, 09:28:24 PM
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Several times throughout the series (pre-Winter mantle), Harry uses his staff one-handed resulting in significant damage to his target. A staff is a two-handed weapon. Have you ever tried to swing a six-foot length of wood "as thick as two thumbs together" with one hand? It's awkward as hell and you can't really get any real force behind it unless you have the space and momentum to twirl it.
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Several times throughout the series (pre-Winter mantle), Harry uses his staff one-handed resulting in significant damage to his target. A staff is a two-handed weapon. Have you ever tried to swing a six-foot length of wood "as thick as two thumbs together" with one hand? It's awkward as hell and you can't really get any real force behind it unless you have the space and momentum to twirl it.
He isn't really trying to physically hit anything with it or need to.. He channels his power through the staff, that's what cracks things and explodes things, not physical force applied with it.
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I recall reading in some book that he has the same runes on it as his kinetic rings. Without magic even a one handed jab with a 6 foot staff is little more than a love tap, and a poorly aimed one. A swing has more chance of hitting a target, but unless you're goading a mule you won't get any significant results.
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I recall reading in some book that he has the same runes on it as his kinetic rings. Without magic even a one handed jab with a 6 foot staff is little more than a love tap, and a poorly aimed one. A swing has more chance of hitting a target, but unless you're goading a mule you won't get any significant results.
Which is the point, Harry has magic.. He usually doesn't joust another physically with it like Little John battling Robin Hood, he doesn't need to.. A wave in the general direction, a thump on the ground a few made up Latin words and all hell breaks loose. ::)
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I think he has some sort of power boost to it... didn't he claim to have broken a ghoul's back in the caves outside Camp Kaboom? those things are pretty tough...
also, he must use some power to strengthen the wood.... the torque could be tremendous, especially in a longer staff. Wood isn't that strong laterally - Pete Alonso popped out today, and on the way back to the dugout broke his bat on his knee. I don't THINK he had cracked it on the popup.
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also, he must use some power to strengthen the wood.... the torque could be tremendous, especially in a longer staff. Wood isn't that strong laterally - Pete Alonso popped out today, and on the way back to the dugout broke his bat on his knee. I don't THINK he had cracked it on the popup.
I think he must of cracked it on the popup. What you need to do is go back and listen to the sound when the bat hit the ball. I bet you can hear the crack even if the bat didn't come apart at that moment. Notice announcers usually know the minute the bat strikes the ball if it is broken from the sound it makes.
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The staff is a general focus, the first wizards use, I think they subconsciously strengthen the blows from it and absorb blows on it with magic but because this is purely mental there are limits to avoid them puréing their brains.Hence Dresden built his kinetic energy punch into it to go further safely.
Harry’s first use of magic was the win the long jump, a similar mental effort, bolstering his physical prowess.
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I'm gonna be a bit contrarian here.
Sometimes he DOES just use it as a "big stick" to whack things, no magic included... and it is a big stick.
Two hands helps with a staff, for sure... BUT ... (and I'm just sayin, here) a "nightstick" (tonfa) is a similar-diameter stick, explicitly used 1-handed.
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A swing has more chance of hitting a target, but unless you're goading a mule you won't get any significant results.
Yes, swinging a staff has a much better chance of scoring a hit and most of the time it won't be very damaging but I've seen a person knocked out with a blow to the neck; vagus nerve hit, and I've seen someone get their collarbone broken, both in street fights. (In both cases, these injuries came from hand blows, so not entirely analogous, but not entirely dissimilar either.) So, a staff being swung by someone who knew where to aim wouldn't be entirely harmless.
Without magic even a one handed jab with a 6 foot staff is little more than a love tap, and a poorly aimed one.
No, you could crack a rib with a really good jab. You wouldn't hold the staff at the very end where you would have poor control.
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It's mentioned a few times that even when he isn't actively projecting energy with the staff, the energy held at the ready makes it... metaphysically more than just a piece of wood, I guess? It definitely came up in Dead Beat where the energy he's holding ready in the staff lets him bludgeon corpsetaker's specters with melee strikes. In Proven Guilty he also crushes the skull of one of the fetches with the staff, and describes the blow as "powered by muscle and magic alike".
The understanding I had was that even when he's 'just' using his staff as a beatstick, it's an instrument of his Will and reinforced by his Will, and the physical strikes are empowered by that. edit: it's also why he can regularly use it as a prybar without snapping the wood.
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No, you could crack a rib with a really good jab. You wouldn't hold the staff at the very end where you would have poor control.
Yes, if you planned on fighting one handed, and already had a decent grip on the middle and an obliging opponent who doesn't care if you hit them.
I try to make allowances for the story, action scenes don't have to be realistic. In fact, beyond a certain point, realism has a negative impact on the audience. Imagine an action scene that goes like this: Will attacked Cane with a powerful right hook, hitting him square in the jaw. Cane reeled back two steps, pulled a gun that was tucked into his pants and shot Will in the face. Pieces of Will's brain splattered over me, and by the time I overcame the shock of seeing a friend die so quickly, Cane was emptying the rest of his bullets into my chest. The end.
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Yes, if you planned on fighting one handed, and already had a decent grip on the middle and an obliging opponent who doesn't care if you hit them.
I try to make allowances for the story, action scenes don't have to be realistic. In fact, beyond a certain point, realism has a negative impact on the audience. Imagine an action scene that goes like this: Will attacked Cane with a powerful right hook, hitting him square in the jaw. Cane reeled back two steps, pulled a gun that was tucked into his pants and shot Will in the face. Pieces of Will's brain splattered over me, and by the time I overcame the shock of seeing a friend die so quickly, Cane was emptying the rest of his bullets into my chest. The end.
If Harry were an ordinary guy, I would totally agree with you, but Harry is a wizard and this is a fantasy. Hey there are no two hundred and something plus year old guys running around either, let alone one smacking people and breaking bones with their walking sticks. This is traditional for wizards from Gandalf through Harry and beyond, remember the scene in "Two Towers"?
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I'm gonna be a bit contrarian here.
Sometimes he DOES just use it as a "big stick" to whack things, no magic included... and it is a big stick.
Two hands helps with a staff, for sure... BUT ... (and I'm just sayin, here) a "nightstick" (tonfa) is a similar-diameter stick, explicitly used 1-handed.
Maybe Harry has just one hugely developed arm from solo manipulation of his staff on a repeated basis?
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Maybe Harry has just one hugely developed arm from solo manipulation of his staff on a repeated basis?
Hell(boy)Harry
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Maybe Harry has just one hugely developed arm from solo manipulation of his staff on a repeated basis?
Must.
Not.
Make.
Deadpool.
Joke.
<fails miserably>
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Maybe Harry has just one hugely developed arm from solo manipulation of his staff on a repeated basis?
Had a comment there but I don't want to get banned :D
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Had a comment there but I don't want to get banned :D
I am shocked. :o
;)
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Groan.... ::) :-X
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Groan.... ::) :-X
Sometimes, but mostly silent :D
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What did I say? What did I say?
It’s just an innocent comment which adequately describes how Harry can beat off allcomers single handed.
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Well done sir.. LOL :D
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Sometimes, but mostly silent :D
Well, great minds or maybe naughty minds think alike? ;)
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The forum appears to have a collective filthy mind.
All I am saying is that Harry’s constant grasp on his magic stick and his exertions with it may have resulted in certain inevitable physiological changes leaving him less limber than he was before he started. His practice match with Lara in Peace Talks is a case in point, that exercise left him quite stiff afterwards.
And perhaps during.
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All I am saying is that Harry’s constant grasp on his magic stick and his exertions with it may have resulted in certain inevitable physiological changes leaving him less limber than he was before he started. His practice match with Lara in Peace Talks is a case in point, that exercise left him quite stiff afterwards.
And perhaps during.
To paraphrase what Hannah Ascher said to Harry in Skin Game:
"Wow. You left me nowhere to go on that one."
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The forum appears to have a collective filthy mind.
All I am saying is that Harry’s constant grasp on his magic stick and his exertions with it may have resulted in certain inevitable physiological changes leaving him less limber than he was before he started. His practice match with Lara in Peace Talks is a case in point, that exercise left him quite stiff afterwards.
And perhaps during.
Well, I guess you could also say the exertion left him quite limp afterwards.. :-\
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Well, I guess you could also say the exertion left him quite limp afterwards.. :-\
Why yes, didn’t Lara smash him on the foot/leg, with her stave? That would certainly impede his gait.
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Why yes, didn’t Lara smash him on the foot/leg, with her stave? That would certainly impede his gait.
Well, I can think of several places she might strike that would cause that.. :o Then again, it might not be to her advantage to do that.. ::)
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Well, I can think of several places she might strike that would cause that.. :o Then again, it might not be to her advantage to do that.. ::)
Of course I see it now her impending marriage plans for Harry could be badly damaged if he had a limp…..He couldn’t walk her back down the aisle if his carriage was impaired.
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I can't remember reading that Harry ever uses his staff one handed. He is a tall guy, so it must be a pretty long staff. Unless there is a quote that says otherwise I think he always uses two hands when there is a physical action scene with it.
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He does when he draws a firearm. Trying to use both hands on his staff and a piece at the same time is likely to result in his rod going off prematurely, he therefore has to use a single hand on his staff to avoid going off half cocked.
I hope that clearly explains it.
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He does when he draws a firearm. Trying to use both hands on his staff and a piece at the same time is likely to result in his rod going off prematurely, he therefore has to use a single hand on his staff to avoid going off half cocked.
I hope that clearly explains it.
To further that point, if he has drawn his blaster rod, it is unlikely that he is physically using his staff
on someone at the same time. When he is wielding his staff to underscore some serious power, he uses both hands. It is rare that he uses his staff like Little John of Robin Hood fame.
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Harry doesn’t use a firearm and a Blasting Rod at the same time, it means he has to take both hands off his staff which he is loath to do for any length of time, especially when things are coming to a head.
I can see the confusion, “rod” has a double meaning in the vernacular, it is slang for a firearm which is why Jim used the term in the first place, for its magical equivalent, but the appellation “blasting” to it is perhaps inappropriate, as it could be misconstrued in a sexual context by some juvenile readers. I hadn’t realised this until you drew my attention to it. Thank you.
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Harry doesn’t use a firearm and a Blasting Rod at the same time, it means he has to take both hands off his staff which he is loath to do for any length of time, especially when things are coming to a head.
I can see the confusion, “rod” has a double meaning in the vernacular, it is slang for a firearm which is why Jim used the term in the first place, for its magical equivalent, but the appellation “blasting” to it is perhaps inappropriate, as it could be misconstrued in a sexual context by some juvenile readers. I hadn’t realised this until you drew my attention to it. Thank you.
Oh I don't think anyone was mistaken, just having a little harmless juvenile fun in a dark week... ;)
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I think it is a really impressive thread. By which I mean that I am impressed by how long it keeps going on, not saying it is thin.
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I think it is a really impressive thread. By which I mean that I am impressed by how long it keeps going on, not saying it is thin.
That's because we've nothing really new to talk about. Loved Toot's story but there really wasn't much to really sink your teeth into. Hopefully there will be enough substance in "The Law" to keep us going until "Twelve Months" comes out. Otherwise we will rehash things we spot in the older books and sometimes get a little silly for several pages about a thin subject.
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I think it is a really impressive thread. By which I mean that I am impressed by how long it keeps going on, not saying it is thin.
Harry’s manual exercise with his weapon has a long history within the pages of the Dresden files. That why this thread keeps going and going. Harry rarely has a partner for day to day bouts and has gone years between person on person action, and although Murphy was more than willing to show him how to properly use his staff, her demise in Battle Ground means that unless Lara is going to take him in hand and properly train him in the maritalmartial arts it will be like him and The Titan all over again. Harry got his Spear out in front of her but at the crucial moment he lost focus and was in danger of there nearly being no successful climax to the engagement. He was lucky, Ethnui had already grasped Odin’s mighty Spear, but it went off in her hand, leaving her shocked and weak at the knees, giving Harry his chance to plough on into her and dominate her through a binding, thoroughly like no mortal man had ever done to her before. Harry got (for him) a happy ending.
I know that as Harry now has the Eye the temptation is that he will seek to mount it on his staff. Now a Wizards staff may have a knob on the end, but he should eschew temptation to do so, if he were to treat it too roughly, the Eye might erupt unexpectedly and rock Harry’s world.
Endurance is the key to keeping this thread up. I can keep it up all day and night, without flagging.
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You truly have a gift, CT. :D
@Monk: ha! You got him going again...
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You truly have a gift, CT. :D
@Monk: ha! You got him going again...
My dear Sir, I never stopped.
It strikes me that Michael would have made a good sparring partner for Harry, but due to injury is now “Mr Once A Knight” although Charity seems to be happy with the arrangement.
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Harry’s manual exercise with his weapon has a long history within the pages of the Dresden files. That why this thread keeps going and going. Harry rarely has a partner for day to day bouts and has gone years between person on person action, and although Murphy was more than willing to show him how to properly use his staff, her demise in Battle Ground means that unless Lara is going to take him in hand and properly train him in the marital-martial arts it will be like him and The Titan all over again. Harry got his Spear out in front of her but at the crucial moment he lost focus and was in danger of there nearly being no successful climax to the engagement. He was lucky, Ethnui had already grasped Odin’s mighty Spear, but it went off in her hand, leaving her shocked and weak at the knees, giving Harry his chance to plough on into her and dominate her through a binding, thoroughly like no mortal man had ever done to her before. Harry got (for him) a happy ending.
Murphy didn't know jack squat about a magical staff.. Odin's Spear went off in her hand by design in my opinion. Harry lost focus because Ethinu was getting into his head... Martial arts aren't that easy to pull off when you are six foot nine..
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Murphy was considered something of a master with a stave, although in Battle Ground she admitted that Bradley would beat her into submission on a regular basis with his weapon. I doubt following the soul gaze though that Bradley will show Harry his technique, and frankly I don’t think Harry could pull it off, even if he did.
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Murphy was considered something of a master with a stave, although in Battle Ground she admitted that Bradley would beat her into submission on a regular basis with his weapon. I doubt following the soul gaze though that Bradley will show Harry his technique, and frankly I don’t think Harry could pull it off, even if he did.
You are talking about coordination, something Harry admits he wasn't overly gifted with, he also admits he isn't terribly good with a sword. If you will notice most gymnasts, dancers, are usually under six feet in height. It is what it is, but while Murphy maybe good with a stave, if she pointed one at something nothing would happen, Harry with a point and a word could blow it to hell..
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Unless it was a human. More often than not Harry faces adversaries who are ostensibly human, and as such magic is out of the question and he generally ends up engaging them up close and personal. For example the choking incident with Nicodemus. In such circumstances the magic in his staff is less useful than the wood. A nice thick, seasoned length of wood has saved Harry on numerous occasions one on one, and whilst he is not the most experienced swordsman, Lea certainly had no complaints when he bared his blade in the cemetery. She really was quite satisfied by Harry’s exertions, even though his size may have counted against him.
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I think he must of cracked it on the popup. What you need to do is go back and listen to the sound when the bat hit the ball. I bet you can hear the crack even if the bat didn't come apart at that moment. Notice announcers usually know the minute the bat strikes the ball if it is broken from the sound it makes.
they didn't say so, and I didn't think so ... but I used Alonso because I had seen it that day. Bo Jackson did it after striking out, so the bat was intact until his knee.
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they didn't say so, and I didn't think so ... but I used Alonso because I had seen it that day. Bo Jackson did it after striking out, so the bat was intact until his knee.
Was it? Unless they had a before close up, you wouldn't see an existing crack before he broke it over his knee. Or there is a trick to it, which apparently there is;
According to The Hardball Times. Here is the physics of it;
The force on the bat intended to break it can be applied rapidly or slowly. Or, if you prefer fancier language – dynamically or quasi-statically. Here’s a way to understand the difference. Go get an uncooked piece of spaghetti and hold one end in each hand.
Breaking it dynamically means very quickly snapping it in two. Put another way, you apply the force rapidly. Quasi-static means slowly applying the force so the spaghetti gently bends more and more until it eventually breaks. For most materials, the breaking force is different in the two cases.
In the case of breaking a bat in game situations, we know from high-speed video measurement that the force is applied dynamically because the entire bat doesn’t have time to bend before it breaks. Check out this famous broken bat hit by Hunter Pence off Joe Kelly in the third inning of the 2012 NLCS.
It also goes into how a bat is shaped and knowing where to apply the force at the weakest point. In other words, the players that do it make a dramatic impression, but it apparently is something they studied and perhaps practiced before hand.
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I am confused is this baseball? I was talking about wood in his staff not about sporting wood involving Harry. As far as I am aware Harry never even swung his staff at the Eye of Balor in Battle Ground, so he didn’t even manage to get to first base with Ethnui.
However Harry is far more used to striking out than getting a home run. He prefers to watch, remember the story involving the tuatha and the goat? That’s more Harry’s speed.
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I am confused is this baseball? I was talking about wood in his staff not about sporting wood involving Harry. As far as I am aware Harry never even swung his staff at the Eye of Balor in Battle Ground, so he didn’t even manage to get to first base with Ethnui.
However Harry is far more used to striking out than getting a home run. He prefers to watch, remember the story involving the tuatha and the goat? That’s more Harry’s speed.
Harry does know his limitations even though his smart ass attitude pushes him to fight above his weight class. You can put down Harry's individual skills all you want, but usually he comes out on top. That's what counts, and yeah, he gets lots of help, but being able to attract that help is a skill also.
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Harry didn’t come out top with the Naagoshli, but certainly Eb, Listens To The Wind and even Toot piled in for a group effort, and Shagnasty beat it with his tail between his legs after being worn out and bent out of shape by their attention. Was it that battle or against Drakul that Listens to The Wind turned into a Bear?
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Harry didn’t come out top with the Naagoshli, but certainly Eb, Listens To The Wind and even Toot piled in for a group effort, and Shagnasty beat it with his tail between his legs after being worn out and bent out of shape by their attention. Was it that battle or against Drakul that Listens to The Wind turned into a Bear?
Both. Kodiak bear is probably the apex land predator when it come to close quarters combat on land.
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Both. Kodiak bear is probably the apex land predator when it come to close quarters combat on land.
Ah! Bear is LTW’s go to move. I definitely wouldn’t like a close quarters engagement with LTW when he turns into a Bear, no wonder Drakul was under pressure when double-teamed by a Bear and River Shoulders, fortunately Harry whipped out his staff and blew Drakul straight into next week, but not before the Black Court went down on Yoshi and Wild Bill (but not Carlos, never poor innocent Carlos.)
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Ah! Bear is LTW’s go to move. I definitely wouldn’t like a close quarters engagement with LTW when he turns into a Bear, no wonder Drakul was under pressure when double-teamed by a Bear and River Shoulders, fortunately Harry whipped out his staff and blew Drakul straight into next week, but not before the Black Court went down on Yoshi and Wild Bill (but not Carlos, never poor innocent Carlos.)
Harry isn't immortal nor is he a god, he isn't going to win them all, but his percentage is better than most. Yes, my point when he went up against the Skin Walker he had a brave soldier like Toot who had his back as well as LTW, being able to attract people like that is no small feat. And if I remember correctly, LTW told Harry after the fight against Drakul in spite of the losses, fighting him to a draw is a win..
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Was it? Unless they had a before close up, you wouldn't see an existing crack before he broke it over his knee. Or there is a trick to it, which apparently there is;
According to The Hardball Times. Here is the physics of it;
It also goes into how a bat is shaped and knowing where to apply the force at the weakest point. In other words, the players that do it make a dramatic impression, but it apparently is something they studied and perhaps practiced before hand.
Both guys were carrying the bat back from the plate. Bo certainly hadn't cracked it hitting the ball, that was why he was mad. The wood is more rigid across the grain. and breaking it over your knee (or helmet) is different than breaking on a pitch - on a pitch the lever end is not having any other forces on it. Over the knee you push both ends and then block the middle. Different driving a splitting edge from the side as opposed to the edge.
The bat, or the end of harry's staff, catches a lot of torque if it hits something at the end. Harry has to be doing something to upgrade the structural integrity. i think magic more likely than a vacuum chamber and resins.
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In The Law there is a disgusting and feeble piece of innuendo made by Triple Jay in Pontiac equating Harry’s ‘wand’ to an intimate piece of his anatomy.
Frankly I was shocked and appalled that Jim Butcher would stoop to such low tactics to get a cheap laugh from the reader. Frankly it is completely untelegraphed by any of Butchers other writing and felt very out of place.
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Both guys were carrying the bat back from the plate. Bo certainly hadn't cracked it hitting the ball, that was why he was mad. The wood is more rigid across the grain. and breaking it over your knee (or helmet) is different than breaking on a pitch - on a pitch the lever end is not having any other forces on it. Over the knee you push both ends and then block the middle. Different driving a splitting edge from the side as opposed to the edge.
The bat, or the end of harry's staff, catches a lot of torque if it hits something at the end. Harry has to be doing something to upgrade the structural integrity. i think magic more likely than a vacuum chamber and resins.
What this has to do with the Files is beyond me. But. Bats can break without any visible signs. I've watched it happen on a machine designed to break bats. One of the more interesting yet useless jobs that I've had. Breaking one across your knee is an invitation to a broken knee. Not to mention soft tissue damage. But if you must, make sure to hit it on the flat grain close to the handle.
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What this has to do with the Files is beyond me. But...
As a spin-off from "the mundane combat efficacy of a staff," the question of "how breakable is a bat" seems reasonably relevant...?
Your Files May Vary
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Actually baseball bats have featured quite heavily in the files, mostly in relation to ‘Snake Boy’ Cassius Quintus. He has received a substantial drubbing from Harry who mercilessly worked him over with his wood on their first time together and Snakeboy returned the favour in Dead Beat on their next hook up (snakeboy used a hook tipped knife) just before Cassius penetrated Harry and Mouse went down on him finishing him off. Butters did little more than watch.