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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on June 13, 2022, 09:50:08 PM
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This is the final Law of Magic, as written by the White Council.
As I wrote elsethread, "... WoJ has it that each of the White Council's 'Laws of Magic' is going to have a book in which Harry seriously breaks that law..."
And I'm having a REALLY hard time trying to imagine Dresden -- Starborn, Outsider-hating Dresden -- opening the Outer Gates. I guess this happens in the final act of the final book of the final trilogy -- the BAT, Big Apocalyptic Trilogy.
The only way I can envision Harry doing this is if he has a metric crapton of Outsider-Killing magic, opening the Gates and killing EVERYTHING that comes through. But that, in turn, is power to dwarf all mortal power, exceeding even what Darkhallow!Harry would have held; more like the power an archangel wields! Mab herself is merely fighting a holding-action (and an imperfect one at that, since we see the Outsiders keep breaking through)
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My view is that this is the Last Cycle whatever, Harry does is pivotal in stopping it, which is what the stakes are so high that an Archangel will bet their grace. The cycle will continue but the Gates defence will be far too strong for the Outsiders to ever succeed, because we will have had the Singularity creating the White God by the next Cycle. The Singularity at its core needs I think an Archangel or equivalent as it’s nexus.
I think Harry does this by setting up Hell against the Outsiders. It’s no coincidence Outsiders are more vulnerable to fire than anything else. Harry probably open the gates only for a pit into Hell to form.
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My view is that this is the Last Cycle whatever, Harry does is pivotal in stopping it, which is what the stakes are so high that an Archangel will bet their grace. The cycle will continue but the Gates defence will be far too strong for the Outsiders to ever succeed, because we will have had the Singularity creating the White God by the next Cycle. The Singularity at its core needs I think an Archangel or equivalent as it’s nexus.
I think Harry does this by setting up Hell against the Outsiders. It’s no coincidence Outsiders are more vulnerable to fire than anything else. Harry probably open the gates only for a pit into Hell to form.
Interesting notion.
By this analysis, "Lucifer" himself was being forged -- by the Fall, by the nature of Hell/Hellfire -- into the ultimate anti-Outsider weapon.
Possibly, Lucifer was even a willing agent & participant in the whole scheme, ultimately on "Team Good Guy."
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Well we're assuming Harry;s only role is to *destroy* Outsiders, but it's gotta be more than that otherwise everyone wouldn't be so cagey and secretive about it. River Shoulders thinks it's not his place. Listens to Winds needs to call in favors for a year before he'll even consider it, Ebenezar feels guilty about something of it, Mab is Impatient and Drakul is teasing manipulative about it.
My bet is Harry will have to control the Outsiders at some point and it's gonna cost him something. Something big.
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Well we're assuming Harry;s only role is to *destroy* Outsiders, but it's gotta be more than that otherwise everyone wouldn't be so cagey and secretive about it. River Shoulders thinks it's not his place. Listens to Winds needs to call in favors for a year before he'll even consider it, Ebenezar feels guilty about something of it, Mab is Impatient and Drakul is teasing manipulative about it.
My bet is Harry will have to control the Outsiders at some point and it's gonna cost him something. Something big.
That ^
Also, so far, Harry's magic had more effect on outsiders than other people, but not by much. He struggled against Sharkface and after 3 encounters finally managed to kill his construct. The outsider survived.
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This is the final Law of Magic, as written by the White Council.
As I wrote elsethread, "... WoJ has it that each of the White Council's 'Laws of Magic' is going to have a book in which Harry seriously breaks that law..."
And I'm having a REALLY hard time trying to imagine Dresden -- Starborn, Outsider-hating Dresden -- opening the Outer Gates. I guess this happens in the final act of the final book of the final trilogy -- the BAT, Big Apocalyptic Trilogy.
The only way I can envision Harry doing this is if he has a metric crapton of Outsider-Killing magic, opening the Gates and killing EVERYTHING that comes through. But that, in turn, is power to dwarf all mortal power, exceeding even what Darkhallow!Harry would have held; more like the power an archangel wields! Mab herself is merely fighting a holding-action (and an imperfect one at that, since we see the Outsiders keep breaking through)
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't Rashid the Gatekeeper already go in and out of the Outer Gates[Cold Days] as general to help Winter's army fight what is out there? Isn't it so that his false eye is made out of the same material as the Gates themselves and with it he scans the wounded to make sure Nemesis isn't hitching a ride.. Since Rashid is on the Senior Council, does that make him exempt for the Law? Or is it that there really isn't any law about not opening the Outer Gates.
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Plenty of people go out to battle beyond the Outer Gates. It's symbolic, the closed gates represent a point that the Outsiders must pass in order to freely enter reality. It's represented by a wall for the perceptions of the Sidhe and any wizards that are there to defend the point. I'm sure the beings on a level above Mab see something else.
You can see the Gates as a bar with a long line. Only those with a stamp can enter and they're at capacity so no stamps for you. The Outsiders that do get in are gatecrashers or sneaks.
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Plenty of people go out to battle beyond the Outer Gates. It's symbolic, the closed gates represent a point that the Outsiders must pass in order to freely enter reality. It's represented by a wall for the perceptions of the Sidhe and any wizards that are there to defend the point. I'm sure the beings on a level above Mab see something else.
You can see the Gates as a bar with a long line. Only those with a stamp can enter and they're at capacity so no stamps for you. The Outsiders that do get in are gatecrashers or sneaks.
Outsiders get around the Gates when they are called up by a mortal, they just can't knock and open the Gate.
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Well we're assuming Harry;s only role is to *destroy* Outsiders, but it's gotta be more than that otherwise everyone wouldn't be so cagey and secretive about it. River Shoulders thinks it's not his place. Listens to Winds needs to call in favors for a year before he'll even consider it, Ebenezar feels guilty about something of it, Mab is Impatient and Drakul is teasing manipulative about it.
My bet is Harry will have to control the Outsiders at some point and it's gonna cost him something. Something big.
I think it is a shot at becoming the White God, it is after all what Lucifer ever really wanted, it’s the one thing the Devil could be manipulated with.
Archangels power levels are so insane that most use of their power is worse than the Eye, it breaks reality. However the Gates are not in the fragile reality of the mortal world imperilling humans who are essential for the Singularity they are in the deepest part of the Never Never.
Harry gives Lucifer the Eye, I bet Lucifer can recharge it a lot faster than Ethnui.
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IIRC, it's "Thou shalt not seek beyond." That's a critical difference.
I assume Harry will need to go somewhere Outside or confront something Outside. Is that where the Stars and Stones exist?
Normally,, there'd be bo good reason to do so and massive risk of corruption. A 5 minute trip every millenium's a pretty explicit exception, much like self-defense against someone killing you with magic, or using mind magic to help someone with something they already want to do (quit drugs).
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IIRC, it's "Thou shalt not seek beyond." That's a critical difference
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I don't have e-copies to ctrl-F, alas; and insufficient time to page-flip to find them.
But I grabbed the text from the Dresden Files wiki:
https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Magic
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Dead Beat
Chapter 31There was a specific Law of Magic against contacting them—Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates.
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Dead Beat
Chapter 31
Unless you are the Gatekeeper. Chapter 34, Cold Days. Heck his eye is made from the same material as the Gates.. Much like the Blackstaff, the Gatekeeper is the exception to the rule.
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... Heck his eye is made from the same material as the Gates ...
Has this been WoJ'ed? I thought it was only a fantheory.
... Much like the Blackstaff, the Gatekeeper is the exception to the rule.
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I wonder if other specific roles exist, with specific exceptions to the Laws...?
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Unless you are the Gatekeeper. Chapter 34, Cold Days. Heck his eye is made from the same material as the Gates.. Much like the Blackstaff, the Gatekeeper is the exception to the rule.
I don't think he is. Remember, at the end of the conversation, the Gatekeeper says something to the effect of, the Council only knows what it has to about our jobs. Meaning that only Harry knows the full extent of his job (if that). Yes, the senior council probably knows something about his job (but not the fullness of it), but they could also believe one thing and in reality, he does something very different.
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Has this been WoJ'ed? I thought it was only a fantheory.
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It was in Cold Days, when Harry visited the Gates, I think. Can't look it up right now, but I believe Harry saw Rashid's eye and noticed the similarity to the material the Gates are made from.
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I looked around me. Yes, definitely. The other eye had been replaced with the crystalline material that was identical to that which had been used to create the gates and the walls around them.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 347). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I suspect that's as close as you'll get to truth unless Butcher drops his drawers and has the answer tattooed on one cheek. The Outer Gates are the sonic screwdrivers of the Dresden Files.
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I don't think he is. Remember, at the end of the conversation, the Gatekeeper says something to the effect of, the Council only knows what it has to about our jobs. Meaning that only Harry knows the full extent of his job (if that). Yes, the senior council probably knows something about his job (but not the fullness of it), but they could also believe one thing and in reality, he does something very different.
Not unlike Eb, who knows what he does outside of the Senior Council?
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I suspect that's as close as you'll get to truth ...
Thank you for providing the cite! Agreed -- that seems clear... crystal clear.
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Thank you for providing the cite! Agreed -- that seems clear... crystal clear.
Oh, come on now -.-
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I can certainly see eye to eye with the citation.
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Oh, come on now -.-
Just roll with the punches, my friend!
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One in the eye FCrate.
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I think he's just walling off the experience.
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It's making me wish that Bill Gates had added a pun filter to windows firewall.
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It's making me wish that Bill Gates had added a pun filter to windows firewall.
"Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates"
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“Thou Shalt Not Open The Router Gates?”
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“Thou Shalt Not Open The Router Gates?”
I mean, lowering your firewall WOULD let Outsiders in and render your PC into a condition not unlike an Empty Night.
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I mean, lowering your firewall WOULD let Outsiders in and render your PC into a condition not unlike an Empty Night.
Nemfection is pretty clearly a code-insertion attack, with individual filespeople getting corrupted & propagating the infection when they run ...
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Nemfection is pretty clearly a code-insertion attack, with individual filespeople getting corrupted & propagating the infection when they run ...
Yes, that is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Rashid "x-rays" every soldier with his eye as they return through the Gates after a skirmish. Either he misses one now and again, which I doubt, or Nemesis gets in our world another way, which it does. It relies on mortals who are willing to summon it knowingly or unknowingly with they play with the dark arts.
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I thought Rashid said his scans were not a perfect approach, part art, part science.
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... Either [Rashid] misses one now and again, which I doubt, or Nemesis gets in our world another way, which it does. It relies on mortals who are willing to summon it knowingly or unknowingly with they play with the dark arts.
I think he "misses one now and again" and there are mortals mucking around with Outsider-calling magic.
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Yes, that is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Rashid "x-rays" every soldier with his eye as they return through the Gates after a skirmish. Either he misses one now and again, which I doubt, or Nemesis gets in our world another way, which it does. It relies on mortals who are willing to summon it knowingly or unknowingly with they play with the dark arts.
I think he "misses one now and again" and there are mortals mucking around with Outsider-calling magic.
heh, your punning just got thoroughly grounded. :D
The question is : Does Nemesis actively control everyone who's infected real-time? Can it, over time, manage to control enough Winter soldiers to Trojan horse the outer gates the old fashioned way?
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Iirc woj is that nemesis/he who walks beside has limits to
A) how many people it can possess at a given moment
B) how stronk what it claims can be (so no nemfecting mr sunshine for example)
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Over and over again, from Blood Rites through Peace Talks, Harry says only mortals can call up Outsiders. In Cold Days Rashid scans all of the wounded being brought back through the Outer Gates and I assume the unwounded as well, for what? Nemesis..
I think the first is one of the easiest for Nemesis to break into our world.
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The whistling in occurred in Peace Talks when The Hounds came in, a direct frontal assault. Nemesis is you saboteur, NemJustine forced Thomas into a situation to cause discord between the Swartalves and the White Court. The Hounds were aimed at Eb to take out the most effective hitter of the White Court.
We know of one other act of premeditation, the attack on the Carpenters organised by Listen, to undercut Harry directly. I think Listen was responsible for the Hounds as well.
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heh, your punning just got thoroughly grounded. :D
<shrugs>
I've learned to roll with the punches!
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The whistling in occurred in Peace Talks when The Hounds came in, a direct frontal assault. Nemesis is you saboteur, NemJustine forced Thomas into a situation to cause discord between the Swartalves and the White Court. The Hounds were aimed at Eb to take out the most effective hitter of the White Court.
We know of one other act of premeditation, the attack on the Carpenters organised by Listen, to undercut Harry directly. I think Listen was responsible for the Hounds as well.
Justine, a mortal most likely called up the Hounds. I think she got infected as early as Grave Peril, or maybe even before to become a plant with in the White Court. Nemesis thinks long term.
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Justine could, but Nemesis can’t. She could have forced Thomas to do it as he has a rudimentary ability in that area but the timing was wrong, and he is mortal enough to be Winter Knight, so probably could
She was working with another mortal, my money on Listen.
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Justine could, but Nemesis can’t. She could have forced Thomas to do it as he has a rudimentary ability in that area but the timing was wrong, and he is mortal enough to be Winter Knight, so probably could
She was working with another mortal, my money on Listen.
When the Hounds were called up Thomas was mostly in a coma near death.. Justine might have been possessed by Nemesis at that moment, but she was still very mortal and in a position to be manipulated by Nemesis to do it.
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A few musings... Do we know if Justine has any magical capability of her own, or is that even needed as long as you perform the proper ritual for summoning outsiders (like following a recipe), given that these are things that WANT to enter our world, whereas other beings might object to being summoned? Or could it be that she is a willing host for the walker, and the walker then temporarily granted her the magical spark, in the same scence that the fallen angels in one of the denarian coins can lend you powers temporarily, and they act through you?
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A few musings... Do we know if Justine has any magical capability of her own, or is that even needed as long as you perform the proper ritual for summoning outsiders (like following a recipe), given that these are things that WANT to enter our world, whereas other beings might object to being summoned? Or could it be that she is a willing host for the walker, and the walker then temporarily granted her the magical spark, in the same scence that the fallen angels in one of the denarian coins can lend you powers temporarily, and they act through you?
I think someone, I think Thomas said everyone has "some" magical ability, and in a lot of ways it is like following a recipe. Consider Butters in Dead Beat, he has little magical ability, but after he was shown how to do it by Harry was able to draw a circle to sit in to protect himself from zombies etc while he drummed to keep Sue going. It has been a while since I read it, but if I remember correctly though Madge had some power all that was required to call up an Outsider was knowing the correct spell etc which Lord Raith supplied her. Could be wrong admittedly, but that is how I remember it. But back to Justine, she doesn't need to have power, all she needed were the words etc which Nemesis could easily tell her.
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A few musings... Do we know if Justine has any magical capability of her own, or is that even needed as long as you perform the proper ritual for summoning outsiders (like following a recipe), given that these are things that WANT to enter our world, whereas other beings might object to being summoned? Or could it be that she is a willing host for the walker, and the walker then temporarily granted her the magical spark, in the same scence that the fallen angels in one of the denarian coins can lend you powers temporarily, and they act through you?
for some reason i think at the time they met, the party, I think she offered her hand to Harry. If she were a practitioner of any power, he could have told them
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Even if she didn't offer her hand then, she was naked when she scratched him all over in the laundry room when they got kidnapped. No tingle.
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Even if she didn't offer her hand then, she was naked when she scratched him all over in the laundry room when they got kidnapped. No tingle.
But I think the tingle only comes if there is significant power present.. I bet if Harry shook hands with Butters in Dead Beat there would be no tingle either, yet under Harry's instructions he could draw a chalk circle, and it had the power to protect him from zombies as he sat in it. It goes along with the warnings about screwing around with the occult, vanilla humans following a recipe can call up some dangerous beings, like demons and Outsiders, no magical talent needed.
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But I think the tingle only comes if there is significant power present.. I bet if Harry shook hands with Butters in Dead Beat there would be no tingle either, yet under Harry's instructions he could draw a chalk circle, and it had the power to protect him from zombies as he sat in it. It goes along with the warnings about screwing around with the occult, vanilla humans following a recipe can call up some dangerous beings, like demons and Outsiders, no magical talent needed.
According to Harry, all vanilla mortals can do the circle thing. They can also call outsiders with a ritual (cult of porn star actresses?) only one of them had power, but they all took turns preforming it. Lidia (?) in grave peril only had Cassandra's Tears and she still tingled when they shook hands.
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quote author=Mira link=topic=54659.msg2354850#msg2354850 date=1657850613] I think someone, I think Thomas said everyone has "some" magical ability, and in a lot of ways it is like following a recipe. [/quote]
Thomas IIRC was reporting on something Harry had told him. Thomas does have a small bit of genuine magical ability. More than most Whamps have, because most Whamps have none. There are Whamps with more, but none are terribly strong with magic.
I suspect either Thomas was misunderstanding / misreporting, or Harry lied to Thomas in order to boost Thomas' spellcasting abilities (because self-confidence is a huge issue in order to cast spells).
Now, it's also true that there are some rituals that need zero "magical talent" to perform. They've been described as "vending machines" -- you go through the correct steps of the ritual, and your result pops out; zero "magocal talent" needed, the most pure-muggle people can perform these rituals successfully (creating a circle/ward is one of those rituals; so (evidently) is the HHWB-summoning by the porn-star sorceresses (or at least, parts of it)). So -- from that POV -- it's also true that "everybody has some magical ability." Harry could have spoken in this sense; again, that presumably would have been to boost Thomas' self-confidence (but without technically lying to him ("Darth Vader betrayed and killed your father, Luke!" -- "From a certain point of view..." ) ), so Harry could teach Thomas a few small spells (specifically, for that short-story, IIRC Thomas used the tracking spell).