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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on June 13, 2022, 02:16:13 AM
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So, I re-listened to the audio books of PT and BG while doing some hiking before the Summer temperatures exploded here (St. George, Utah which is at the Eastern end of the Mohave Desert) a few days ago. I have to say I liked both books; especially BG, much more than when they came out two years ago. I think because I already knew that PT didn't have a lot of actions scenes and I didn't have any expectations that I had the first time I read BG, it made a difference; though I still wouldn't rate either book or both together as being near the top of my best of Dresden Files list.
I'm wondering about the sign that Harry got Mac to nail up at the pub. Talk about a Chekhov's Gun moment. It looked like Mac might be forced to make a last stand against the Fomor and then we never saw him again. I could be wrong, but I doubt Mac was with the crowd that followed Harry's Banner. Perhaps once he nailed up the sign Mac was compelled to stay and defend that spot or perhaps his not quite mortal nature precluded him from coming under the influence of the Banner. In any case, the sign and where it is now located will come into significance later, though I wonder when and in what way.
There has been some speculation about how long Thomas will remain imprisoned underneath Demon Reach, but I don't want to make guesses about that. Prior to PT and BG there was some speculation that Thomas will one day take up Amoracchius; and I guess I could still see that happening, but there's a problem; actually two, that I don't see The Sword of Love helping to solve.
I can envision a scenario where the new KotC saves Mr. Etri, his sister or perhaps both of them from some peril and that might balance the scales with Swartalves. That, and an explanation that Thomas was compelled to attack Etri, it wasn't something he wanted to do. Even if potential complications from that scenario get ironed out, how would that help Thomas with his need to feed? The island can protect Thomas from his Hunger but what happens the moment he's released from captivity? OK, let's say there's a solution to that problem, I don't see how taking up Amorachius would help Thomas with his Hunger and the demon behind it.
Well wait a minute, maybe I can. Removing the hunger demon from a White Court vampire would be fatal, but perhaps if Thomas took up Amorachius it would kill his inner demon; because love is poison to the White Court the Sword of Love should be equally poisonous, but protect the man who took up the holy sword. Thomas would become a mortal human. I suppose it could work, but that still doesn't do anything to get Justine back and free her from Nemesis. I doubt that even Amorachius could help with that task. That sword should be able to cut up Nemesis just fine; because when Michael was still a KotC Amorachius had no problem dealing with Outsiders, but unfortunately it would do the same thing to Justine, making the sword unusable.
Then again, we know one sword that appears to be capable of hurting Nemesis without harming Justine or her unborn child. Fidelacchius seems made for the task and it's likely Nemesis wouldn't know a thing about its new abilities and limitations. Nemesis would get a real surprise if Butters swung it at Justine. One possible complication to Butters freeing Justine is he might be in more danger than usual. If Butters didn't get sent a message from On High to help free Justine, if it was something Harry or Thomas asked Butters to do then Waldo might be at greater physical peril. At least Harry believed that Michael was injured more often when Harry asked the Knight for his help rather than Michael's mission was Heaven sent.
The only other questions I have after BG are mostly issues that have already been widely discussed in other threads, like the possible long-term influence of Thorned Namshiel on Marcone. It might take several books, but I suspect we will eventually see some sign that Marcone is changing for the worse. There's also the question of Thorned Namshiel's feelings about Nicodemus. Just because Marone would like to destroy Nicodemus that doesn't mean Thorned Namshiel thinks the same way. I'm remembering the time Nicodemus called on Lasciel's shadow to paralyze Harry so Nic could recruit him. There's no reason Thorned Namshiel shouldn't be able to do the same thing to Marcone. That's not even a WAG, just an extreme thing that could happen if Marcone and TN's interests diverged from one another.
When will Harry call upon Ethniu to do his bidding? My guess is not for a long time. One possible scenario would be when Harry has to deal with a kaiju, but that's just pure speculation without any real evidence to back it up.
There are questions about Lara and the White Court, but some of those predate PT and BG and it appears we will be seeing a fair amount of her in the next novel, so that should be fun. Of course, if the above scenario of Thomas taking up Amorachius and becoming a mortal human came true, Lara would not react well to that. However, there's no guarantee that Thomas will be released from Demon Reach in the next book, so this could be a long-term issue.
Just when I think I'm finished there's always one more issue to cover. I wonder what answer LTW will give Harry in one year, about what it means to be Starborn. When Harry asked the Starborn question the first time, LTW essentially told Harry that he didn't have any other options than wait for a reply. When LTW comes to tell Harry if he will answer his question, I'd like to see Harry start the conversation by telling LTW that if he can't or won't tell him what it really means to be Starborn, Harry has other sources who will give him the answers he's been seeking, and do so within the hour, because it's true. Harry could ask Bonea about being Starborn; though if Harry didn't ask the right questions or ask them in the right way, he might not learn everything he really needs to know, but it would be a way of telling LTW; and the others who are in the know, that they can work with Harry or he can go his own way without them. Mostly, I'm tired of waiting myself. We've been waiting a long time for many different mysteries to be solved, I think it's time some of this jigsaw puzzle starts to get filled in a bit.
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I'm wondering about the sign that Harry got Mac to nail up at the pub. Talk about a Chekhov's Gun moment. It looked like Mac might be forced to make a last stand against the Fomor and then we never saw him again. I could be wrong, but I doubt Mac was with the crowd that followed Harry's Banner. Perhaps once he nailed up the sign Mac was compelled to stay and defend that spot or perhaps his not quite mortal nature precluded him from coming under the influence of the Banner. In any case, the sign and where it is now located will come into significance later, though I wonder when and in what way.
By "sign" do you mean the Placard? It was one of the Artifacts that Harry took from the vault and was the sign that was nailed up over Jesus when He was nailed to the Cross. Mac recognized what it was, and reluctantly signed his name and blood to protect those in his bar. What made him uncomfortable I think was he renewed a commitment that he has renounced maybe a couple or more thousand years before. I don't think that act was connected in any way to Harry's Banner. Though what happened to the Placard is a dangling thread, or at least it isn't spelled out that Harry went back to the bar after the battle to pick it up, though I imagine he did.
There has been some speculation about how long Thomas will remain imprisoned underneath Demon Reach, but I don't want to make guesses about that. Prior to PT and BG there was some speculation that Thomas will one day take up Amoracchius; and I guess I could still see that happening, but there's a problem; actually two, that I don't see The Sword of Love helping to solve.
Yeah, I don't think either the Sword of Lover or the Sword of Faith will cure Thomas. My theory is Alfred has a way to separate the Hunger Demon from Thomas and throw it in a cell and free the now fully human Thomas. I also think that He Who Walks Beside will cast Justine aside when he no longer needs her, what that does to her remains to be seen. Thomas however may still be forced to answer for his crime.
Just when I think I'm finished there's always one more issue to cover. I wonder what answer LTW will give Harry in one year, about what it means to be Starborn. When Harry asked the Starborn question the first time, LTW essentially told Harry that he didn't have any other options than wait for a reply. When LTW comes to tell Harry if he will answer his question, I'd like to see Harry start the conversation by telling LTW that if he can't or won't tell him what it really means to be Starborn, Harry has other sources who will give him the answers he's been seeking, and do so within the hour, because it's true. Harry could ask Bonea about being Starborn; though if Harry didn't ask the right questions or ask them in the right way, he might not learn everything he really needs to know, but it would be a way of telling LTW; and the others who are in the know, that they can work with Harry or he can go his own way without them. Mostly, I'm tired of waiting myself. We've been waiting a long time for many different mysteries to be solved, I think it's time some of this jigsaw puzzle starts to get filled in a bit.
Unless she matures very quickly I don't see Bonea explaining to Harry what a star born is.. She is still confused about milk. I hope LTW does come an explain what it means to Harry because I think the White Council's take is critical to Harry. I don't think the meaning is equal for all star born. I totally agree with you about the jigsaw puzzle bit and wish they were filled in or at least some of the dots are connected. That is one of the reasons why I wish the new element of an engagement and marriage to Lara wasn't brought in. I see it as a distraction, and at this point anyway do not see how it furthers the story along.
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... That is one of the reasons why I wish the new element of an engagement and marriage to Lara was brought in. I see it as a distraction, and at this point anyway do not see how it furthers the story along.
(n.b. I'm pretty sure you mean "wasn't brought in," and I'm answering that way...)
Lara can advance the story by giving Harry a Lara's-eye view of Thomas & his childhood, mama LaFey, etc.
She can potentially help him understand whamps/whampery -- and therefore Thomas --better than he does.
Even with Thomas offscreen, Harry/Thomas bonding & character-advancement can occur!
She might give him access to the Raith Library; it certainly had a version of the heart-explode spell (and Vadderung was pretty clear that it's meaningful that that same spell has crossed Harry's path multiple times, from multiple directions), and it may have interesting material on the early days (even the origins?) of the whamps.
But I think "Twelve Months" is really just another plotline wherein Jim torments Harry; the meaningful stuff will be what happens in the corners and around the edges. (Like how, in Skin Game, the "meaningful stuff" is mostly at the end, where Harry gets a bunch of superweapons, and Butters gets promoted, and Bonea is born, etc; iirc, only the scene in the basement of the church (where Harry makes the call to Kincaid & then imposes so badly upon Molly (that we don't see until the end of Ghost Story!) and then makes his deal with Mab) also has that sort of "meaningful stuff." The "main" plotline of SG? Harry allies with hated-enemy Nicodemus to raid the Underworld? Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)
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(n.b. I'm pretty sure you mean "wasn't brought in," and I'm answering that way...)
Yes, I did, it had been a long day... :-[ As to the rest of it, interesting perhaps, but. . .
Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)
Well, since the Artifacts were used in Battle Ground and Harry would have failed without using them, it was meaningful.
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The placard gave Harry peace of mind, a safe place to stash Murphy. Murphy had other ideas.
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Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom. One scenario to free Thomas from the Swartelves is for him to go back in time as Harry does, along with Justine, and stay there. Maybe become a Knight in Medieval France
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The placard gave Harry peace of mind, a safe place to stash Murphy. Murphy had other ideas.
It also protected the bulk of the Paranet.. Yeah, Murphy had other ideas and abandoned her post to go and help Harry. If she had lived and all those with in the bar had perished because she wasn't there to protect them, how would she have felt?
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It also protected the bulk of the Paranet.. Yeah, Murphy had other ideas and abandoned her post to go and help Harry. If she had lived and all those with in the bar had perished because she wasn't there to protect them, how would she have felt?
The placard was there. That was not the place where she could make a difference.
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The placard was there. That was not the place where she could make a difference.
Harry should have known this, and perhaps subconsciously did.
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... Well, since the Artifacts were used in Battle Ground and Harry would have failed without using them, it was meaningful.
This was an end-of-book plot-twist -- "This isn't a treasury... it's an armory!." Almost the entire "heist" plotline was about other things... wealth, greed, etc. And of course the "spiritual" heaven/hell thing of a Fallen Angel in possession of the Holy Grail (which, it should be noted, was an outright win for Anduriel, however disastrously-Pyrrhic the victory was for Nicodemus Archleone).
But Harry's powerup could have been equally-advanced by the "heist" being run against (for example) a Church-run armory (an arm of the same group supporting the Knights, which holds the Coins they get, but also could have held the Superweapons); or even having Forthill just hand them over, etc (but of course that ain't much of a story!). In many ways, Dresden doing a run against the Church could have been even better, furthering his isolation, his separation from his old life, & emphasizing how much he's a "lone wolf" ... but running with the monsters more than with humanity...
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Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom. One scenario to free Thomas from the Swartelves is for him to go back in time as Harry does, along with Justine, and stay there. Maybe become a Knight in Medieval France
I've seen the theory that Harry goes back in time & becomes Merlin (the OG one).
If he goes back to medieval France, though... maybe he becomes Bob!!!
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Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom...
I'm pretty sure WoJ has it that each of the White Council's "Laws of Magic" is going to have a book in which Harry seriously breaks that law.
I think Dead Beat saw him break Law#5, "Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life" (although he got by on the "just an animal" technicality).
The other laws are:
1. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (i.e. use magic to kill; guns & knives & guillotines & tactical nukes are A-OK)
2. "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" (guessing he'll learn transformation from LTW)
3. "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another" (see also, next entry)
4. "Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another" (Interesting that mind-magic gets TWO Laws, #3 & #4)
5. "Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time" (our topic du jour)
7. "Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates" (gonna hafta start a whole 'nother thread on this'un!!!)
On the "time travel" book, my favorite theory is a two-part'er:
#1 - Cowl is Future!Harry. He wasn't always. The guy Kemmler recruited & taught was a nasty piece of work, much in line with the other Kemmlerites; and he got nastier on a diet of Vitamin-K. But some time (not too long before the start of Dead Beat) Future!Harry took down Real!Cowl, and replaced him. The guy Harry dueled at Bock Ordered Books was his future self. Molly is Kumori, because (a) younger female sidekick Harry trusts, & (b) he needs the Winter Lady's immortality to use Mother Winter's Ways through time.
#2 - Future!Harry is going to go back and hit a BUNCH of his old Case Files, proving to have been the "puppetmaster" more than once... possibly even one of the founding members of the Black Council. The time travel book with be a revisit / alternate POV of most of the series, casting a new spin & behind-the-scenes insight.
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I've seen the theory that Harry goes back in time & becomes Merlin (the OG one).
If he goes back to medieval France, though... maybe he becomes Bob!!!
It's the only place where Thomas could be safe from his enemies both within the White Court and out of it. If he was cured he could live out his life in peace. On time travel you will have to wait till the last book before the trilogy to find out.
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It's the only place where Thomas could be safe from his enemies both within the White Court and out of it. If he was cured he could live out his life in peace ...
I think that if he were cured of his Hunger-Demon, he'd be safe(ish) living any time before his own birth. No whamp could look there, nor would.
It'd be a challenge, though: as a lifelong supernatural predator, he'll be *noticing* things others would not, and it'd be incredibly-hard to stand by and do nothing.
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Lara can advance the story by giving Harry a Lara's-eye view of Thomas & his childhood, mama LaFey, etc.
She can potentially help him understand whamps/whampery -- and therefore Thomas --better than he does.
These and the other points you made about Lara giving Harry a different and perhaps more detailed perspective of the White Court make sense to me.
But I think "Twelve Months" is really just another plotline wherein Jim torments Harry; the meaningful stuff will be what happens in the corners and around the edges. (Like how, in Skin Game, the "meaningful stuff" is mostly at the end, where Harry gets a bunch of superweapons, and Butters gets promoted, and Bonea is born, etc; iirc, only the scene in the basement of the church (where Harry makes the call to Kincaid & then imposes so badly upon Molly (that we don't see until the end of Ghost Story!) and then makes his deal with Mab) also has that sort of "meaningful stuff." The "main" plotline of SG? Harry allies with hated-enemy Nicodemus to raid the Underworld? Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)
However, this is what I really want to respond to. Looking at some of the Dresden Files novels in the manner you describe looking at Skin Game, I'm reminded of the TV series Babylon 5; which Jim has stated he was a fan of. The first season of B5 probably had the most "one and done" or standalone stories, compared to the other four seasons of the show. Within these standalone stories the viewer would often receive little tidbits of information that had significance to the overall story arc. When re-watching the series even some of the weaker episodes can be made more enjoyable when you spot these "Signs and Portents" of future developments in the overall storyline. Plus, there were call backs within B5. Something that happened in the first season of the show and seemed to be finished; such as the episode about Babylon 4 or a one episode love interest of Londo Mollari, would be revisited two seasons later and turn out to be of great significance.
The problem; as I see it, what was pretty cool in a TV series that wrapped up in five seasons is starting to wear a little thin after over twenty years of Dresden Files novels. Fool Moon was published at the beginning of 2001, and in that novel we learned that both of Harry's parents died "unnatural deaths." About three and half years later Blood Rites was published and we learned how and who killed Harry's mother, but it's almost nineteen years since that story's release and we still don't know what happened to Malcom Dresden.
I don't have a solution to this issue. Perhaps I can give a suggestion to anyone in the audience contemplating their own book series in which you want to plant hints or leave clues to future developments of the greater story arc. Don't go for a twenty plus book series. Trilogies can be good, but if you really feel the need to stretch out your story, maybe aim to finish in eight to twelve novels at most.
Benedict Jacka wrapped up his Alex Verus story in twelve novels. I don't think it was the perfect series or that it had the perfect ending, but overall it was pretty good. It tied up most of its plot threads in a convincing manner. More importantly, none of the mid to late novels feel in any way like filler. As a reader, I could feel the series building up to an explosive ending. Aim for that feeling if you can, and maybe one day you'll be a visiting guest author at DragonCon.
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However, this is what I really want to respond to. Looking at some of the Dresden Files novels in the manner you describe looking at Skin Game, I'm reminded of the TV series Babylon 5; which Jim has stated he was a fan of. The first season of B5 probably had the most "one and done" or standalone stories, compared to the other four seasons of the show. Within these standalone stories the viewer would often receive little tidbits of information that had significance to the overall story arc. When re-watching the series even some of the weaker episodes can be made more enjoyable when you spot these "Signs and Portents" of future developments in the overall storyline. Plus, there were call backs within B5. Something that happened in the first season of the show and seemed to be finished; such as the episode about Babylon 4 or a one episode love interest of Londo Mollari, would be revisited two seasons later and turn out to be of great significance.
However what you are saying about the first season of B5 wasn't what the creator JMS planned at all for his five year arc. What happened was his star Michael O'Hare was severely mentally ill and had to be dropped from the show. Yes, there was a couple of stand alone episodes in the first season, but most contained plenty of Easter Eggs to hint about the next five years. That all had to change when Sinclair played by Michael O'Hare had to leave to the show. Actually the first season almost didn't get completed because of his mental state. JMS did a remarkable job scrambling to make the final four years more or less fit his planned arc. O'Hare was convinced to stay on his medication long enough to guest star in two later episodes that tied up a loose ends about Valen and Babylon 4. JMS had promised O'Hare that he'd keep his secret from the public, upon O'Hare's death the story finally came out. O'Hare's story is very sad, he continued to have problems staying on his medication, and finally died homeless of a heart attack.
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While that's true (poor Michael O'Hare!), it's not quite the whole story. Knowing actors might drop out of availability during the shooting process, Straczinski has admitted to writing "trap doors" so that characters could be written out without too much impact to the main storyline, which was plotted out in advance. Of course, there were still unexpected things that had to be worked around-- the Vorlon/Shadow arc was wrapped up quickly due to looming cancellation after the fourth season, and then the show got renewed for a fifth year... But for the most part, as far as we know, the main arc worked out more-or-less as planned.
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While that's true (poor Michael O'Hare!), it's not quite the whole story. Knowing actors might drop out of availability during the shooting process, Straczinski has admitted to writing "trap doors" so that characters could be written out without too much impact to the main storyline, which was plotted out in advance. Of course, there were still unexpected things that had to be worked around-- the Vorlon/Shadow arc was wrapped up quickly due to looming cancellation after the fourth season, and then the show got renewed for a fifth year... But for the most part, as far as we know, the main arc worked out more-or-less as planned.
Except that Sinclair would have been the focus all through the arc. The trajectory remained the same but with in that he had to do some switching. I'd like to know when that interview of JMS was made, because he he did say stuff like he had made plans because actors leave all of the time when O'Hare was alive, he kept his promise to him. I don't know when you watched the show, I was a fan of the show and of Sinclair from the beginning. A lot of us fans were very unhappy when O'Hare was dropped from the show. We had a website back then as well, and JMS was part of that and would answer our questions and enter in on the debates from time to time.
Nothing was said about O'Hare's illness, it was all about ratings and needing a bigger star. Now JMS could very well have begun to rewrite the show towards the end of the first season because it was a miracle that O'Hare kept it together as well as he did to finish the first season.
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I watched pretty much the whole thing during its first run (except for the last year when it jumped to cable, but I caught up later)... and I've seen the whole thing many times since then.
I don't remember when I originally saw the quote from JMS. Before I made my post, I went to double-checked and found it referenced on Wikipedia. The source it listed was The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html), and that site says it's from 1997:
From JMS, August 14 1997
How can the story continue without one of the main characters?
One of the first things I had to do, in plotting out the storyline, was to set aside trap doors for *every single character*, because you never know when or how the real world is going to impinge upon you. An actor can quit, or get hit by a car, or slammed by a meteor...there's no way to control the characters the way you do in a novel. That's a given. But you can't bring X-million viewers along to a certain point, then say, "Well, all the stuff we were going to do we can't because X isn't here."
So in a way, the structure of the story is kind of like a computer game tree...pull out a piece along the way, and it goes down a different path, but ends up at exactly the same point at the end. It's the difference between different *results* and different ways of *getting* there.
You can do a story about a platoon in WW II, for instance, and some of the platoon may live, die, be injured, whatever...but the story of WWII is the story of WWII.
Beyond that, a challenge is just that: a call to see just how good you *really* are, kid. If you've ever seen GLORY, there's the scene in which one of the Massachusetts 54th is being taught to shoot. He does just fine, hits the target, reloads fine...when nobody's shooting at him. At which point the colonel starts firing a revolver right next to his head, teling him to try and do it NOW, and do it FAST, with ten thousand guns firing at him.
That's when the art comes in, that's when the skill comes in...in dealing with what you *don't* expect.
Like I said, it's hard to say which parts of the narrative were planned and which were on-the-fly, but the man himself said there were "trap doors" from the beginning, and I've got no reason to doubt him. >shrug<
I wish I'd been around those boards then, it must have been so much fun to be able to interact with the creator of the show as it came out!
(I also prefer Sinclair to Sheridan, but what really curdled my spoo was Marcus and Ivanova...)
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I wish I'd been around those boards then, it must have been so much fun to be able to interact with the creator of the show as it came out!
In 1997 Michael O'Hare was still alive, he died in 2012, JMS kept his promise, trap doors? Many supporting actors changed from the pilot with little or no problem. But when the main star goes, half the stage falls away. One story line that had to be reworked was originally Catherine Saki who was Sinclair's love interest and to whom he became engaged to at the end of the first season. She surveyed planets for possible economic exploitation for big galactic companies, she insisted on going into dangerous areas for this reason. Remember the episode where G'Gar warned her, and actually sent in Narn fighter ships that saved her? She was the one who was supposed to disappear because of the Shadows at some point after the engagement or perhaps marriage. The groundwork was laid for her disappearance in that first season, it made logical sense in the whole story arc. When Sinclair was dropped from the story, it was Sheriton's wife that disappeared, it worked, but not as well, because we never met her and had no emotion invested in her. Another Easter egg was the "marriage" ceremony between Sinclair and Delenn, during the week of diverse religions festival. I suppose that was one of the easier things to fix. The intrigue with Bestor was also well laid in the first season, the conflict between him and Sinclair became personal, they managed to switch it up in the later seasons, but again with less effect.
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But some time (not too long before the start of Dead Beat) Future!Harry took down Real!Cowl, and replaced him. The guy Harry dueled at Bock Ordered Books was his future self. Molly is Kumori, because (a) younger female sidekick Harry trusts, & (b) he needs the Winter Lady's immortality to use Mother Winter's Ways through time.
That theory has real problems with why FutureHarry would be curious to duel PresentHarry and see "what the Wardens are so worried about" & why he's disappointed to find Harry isn't stronger than he turns out to be, and why FutureMolly would ask what happened to his hand when PresentMolly already knows. Weird things to mention solely for the purpose of misdirecting Harry if their identities are so very unlikely for him to have guessed anyway.
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I have long had the theory that Cowl is in fact 5 Misters from different points in time standing on each other’s shoulders in a long robe.
Who is to say that what we have seen as Cowl is not in fact an ectoplasmic projection like Harry recently employed?. Cowl could be anyone as the projection doesn’t have to look like the actual person, and they could be in their own home hundreds of miles away, establishing an alibi.
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@Mira: Since I preferred Sinclair too, I agree that some of the reworked beats might not have worked quite as well with Sheridan... but I still appreciate how JMS was able to change course and still get basically the story he wanted told without the lead actor he started with.
Though if I might suggest, we could take this conversation to the Media Favorites thread, if you like? As much fun as this is for you and me (and it is fun!) it is a little off-topic in a Dresden thread... ;) ;D ❤
(No offense is intended, I just don't want to get smacked by the mods for derailing... )
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That theory has real problems with why FutureHarry would be curious to duel PresentHarry and see "what the Wardens are so worried about" & why he's disappointed to find Harry isn't stronger than he turns out to be...
I think this could easily be a bit of misdirection by Future!Harry. He's trying to portray Cowl as this mysterious non-White-Council Kemmlerite wizard who nevertheless seems to know White Council secrets.
... and why FutureMolly would ask what happened to his hand when PresentMolly already knows ...
Molly may not have realized Harry was injured at this point; she didn't get more than an occasional glimpse of Harry until the next book, and Harry had been explicitly avoiding Michael and his family for a couple of years (since picking up Lasciel's coin 2-3 books back).
... Weird things to mention solely for the purpose of misdirecting Harry if their identities are so very unlikely for him to have guessed anyway.
Also an entirely-valid perspective. I cannot say you are "wrong" here.
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I think this could easily be a bit of misdirection by Future!Harry. He's trying to portray Cowl as this mysterious non-White-Council Kemmlerite wizard who nevertheless seems to know White Council secrets.
Molly may not have realized Harry was injured at this point; she didn't get more than an occasional glimpse of Harry until the next book, and Harry had been explicitly avoiding Michael and his family for a couple of years (since picking up Lasciel's coin 2-3 books back).
Also an entirely-valid perspective. I cannot say you are "wrong" here.
What's the point? How does it serve the plot? Butcher laid ground in Cold Days to set out how it would work. He had Vadderung spell it out.
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What's the point? How does it serve the plot? Butcher laid ground in Cold Days to set out how it would work. He had Vadderung spell it out.
I think Kumori is Future!Maggie, not Molly, because of her attitude towards necromancy and her wish to end death. Maggie has lost so many important people in her life already as a child. This would make sense, that she would want death to end, like she said. In Dead Beat. OK, now one could say Molly could have lost people too in the future. Or perhaps Michael would have died at Bianca's Party, if Cowl hadn't changed the outcome. But to me she doesn't feel like Molly. There have been lots of discussions, and I think she could be both Molly or Maggie under the right circumstances, but to me she doesn't feel like Molly.
And it serves the plot: their interference caused a change in the timeline, which is now the timeline we are reading about. Maybe Harry's Hand hasn't been damaged at that time, if Future!Harry/Cowl wasn't injured, because.... no idea, perhaps because this was one of the consequences when they changed their past. And Cowl did it repeatedly. He was there with Kumori in Grave Peril and Dead beat. And he was there alone in White Night (if it even was him, but I think Harry wasn't wrong), and I think each time he changed what would have happened. Maybe he changed a bit and the outcome was worse than the original or there were aspects he wasn't aware of before. So he had to change something else at another time. Or maybe it was all planned out.
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What's the point? How does it serve the plot? Butcher laid ground in Cold Days to set out how it would work. He had Vadderung spell it out.
The "point" (narratively) would be to revisit stuff from the POV of more-aware Harry. We know Harry has missed a huge amount of subtle things going on around him; Jim repeatedly has said so. So it adds context, clarifies mysteries, maybe even completely changes our understanding of some scenes.
If Jim is still planning on a Lawbreaker novel for each law, that's my #1 bet for the time-travel one, a "casefiles retrospective" where he hits a whole bunch of prior Cases (including fixing Little Chicago).
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The "point" (narratively) would be to revisit stuff from the POV of more-aware Harry. We know Harry has missed a huge amount of subtle things going on around him; Jim repeatedly has said so. So it adds context, clarifies mysteries, maybe even completely changes our understanding of some scenes.
If Jim is still planning on a Lawbreaker novel for each law, that's my #1 bet for the time-travel one, a "casefiles retrospective" where he hits a whole bunch of prior Cases (including fixing Little Chicago).
He's already done a number of them. But if the time travel book is just to get a new perspective on the books I'll pass even if I don't die of old age first. I've read them already.
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He's already done a number of them. But if the time travel book is just to get a new perspective on the books I'll pass even if I don't die of old age first. I've read them already.
Yeah, a number of us will die of old age, and agreed. Now maybe Jim can pull it off, but you are right it is basically the same formula for every time travel story. But I guess that can be said for a lot of stories.
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That I might not survive to read the books isn't the point. What do the books have to say that would make it worth living to read them might be a better way to think about it?
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That I might not survive to read the books isn't the point. What do the books have to say that would make it worth living to read them might be a better way to think about it?
Perhaps, but while the mind may be willing, the old bod has it's limitations, eventually the warranty runs out.. :o
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;)
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You could always be like George RR Martin an thrive eternally upon the disappointment and anger of fans.
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He's already done a number of them. But if the time travel book is just to get a new perspective on the books I'll pass even if I don't die of old age first. I've read them already.
"Zoo Day" tells of the same outing, from 3 different POV's.
"The Good People" takes place in parallel to Christmas Eve, branching off midstory from the earlier one... and very likely, wrapping-up before it.
Alternate perspectives, backstories, behind-the-scenes of Young!Dresden's shallow perspectives, etc.
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It’s worse than you think Day One has Butters trying to speak with Harry as he is off to the zoo, in Zoo Day, Harry is a background character.
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"Zoo Day" tells of the same outing, from 3 different POV's.
"The Good People" takes place in parallel to Christmas Eve, branching off midstory from the earlier one... and very likely, wrapping-up before it.
Alternate perspectives, backstories, behind-the-scenes of Young!Dresden's sh'allow perspectives, etc.
Whatever works for you. But for me I want a narrative purpose that moves the story to a conclusion. If he time travels, make time travel do something other then give a different perspective to the story.
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Whatever works for you. But for me I want a narrative purpose that moves the story to a conclusion. If he time travels, make time travel do something other then give a different perspective to the story.
But what if that "different perspective" actually does "move the story to a conclusion"?
Advances our understanding, Harry's understanding. Reveals shadowy figures, resolves lingering issues, clarifies confusing elements, etc.
The point of such a story isn't to re-tread and re-tell the same story; it's to tell a different story about the same events.
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But what if that "different perspective" actually does "move the story to a conclusion"?
Advances our understanding, Harry's understanding. Reveals shadowy figures, resolves lingering issues, clarifies confusing elements, etc.
The point of such a story is to re-tread and re-tell the same story; it's to tell a different story about the same events.
That tells me what he will be doing on his trip but not why he's taking the trip in the first place. I'll give you a time travel scenario. It's the last book. This is just a scenario not a wag.
Mab lies dying on the floor where she has just been back stabbed by Molly. Lash reveals that she still exists and tells him he needs to go back and become the man who must finish the fight. Harry turns and runs and goes to the river of time and travels back. As he leaves Merlin steps from the shadows.
Cue exposition. Now Harry goes back to create the tools he needs to win the fight, Lash tells him how and connects him up with all the right Gods in all the right places. He creates both the prison and the archive then steps into the crystal to come back, stopping along the way to make sure that things happen as they were meant to happen. Until at last he steps out to finish the fight as Merlin.
Do you see the point I'm making? If he going to time travel it must have a raison d'être. This scenario is a loop once time story. Everything occurs as it was meant to.
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Do you see the point I'm making? If he going to time travel it must have a raison d'être. This scenario is a loop once time story. Everything occurs as it was meant to.
Which brings us back to motive, which is usually to go back to fix something that someone else screwing with time messed up. Or to go back to change something so what is happening in present time either doesn't happen or make sure it does happen. However changing a time line to fix one thing sets off ripples that change lots of other stuff that could lead to a worse outcome. That is why it is forbidden. It is impossible to just be an observer of what is going on, unless you can isolate yourself from everything and watch through a port hole..
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Never liked problem solving through time travel. I hope that's not what happens.
I remember reading a short story when I was a kid about a scientist who labored for months to solve an equation to make his time machine effective, to the ridicule of his peers, who say that he cannot exist twice at the same time. He records all major and minor events even before he succeeds to prove it works, and theorizes that a process called "substitution" will occur where his future mind will replace the past one, leaving everything else intact. He finally succeeds and his theory is correct. He traveled back in time 6 months, knowing everything that will happen, yet finds himself unable to change anything. He can't change his course of action no matter how hard he tries. He finds himself struggling to solve the equation again, making the same mistakes even when he knows the answer. The story ends with him succeeding in solving the equation again, and steps into the time machine once more, to start the last 6 months over again. Endlessly.
I loved that story.