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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on April 07, 2022, 07:30:54 AM
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I am of two minds of this.
On the one hand, I do look forward to Harry's parallel universe experience in Mirror Mirror, Harry fighting a Dragon, Kaiju showing up, and anything that expands on the gods (although I am very wary of the wrestling book...). Even Twelve Months has a lot of potential to be a very interesting book.
We've been told there are (as per latest information) at least 4 to 5 more books (including Twelve months). At the old rate of one every ~1.5 years that would 6-7.5 years away approximately. At the current rate...it could be double that or more.
Each of the books of the BAT are supposed to be BIG novels. So even were Jim writing at his own rate each book would take 2-5 years each. And there are THREE of them.
So worst case scenario, we could be looking at a 30 year window. Which puts Jim in his 80s. Not brilliant I would think for anyone.
Best case scenario, 12 years (and this assumes everything goes perfectly and he writes like a machine and there are no more global disruptions or personal issues etc.). Jim is in his early 60s by this point, and it's roughly 2034.
I don't want a rushed version of the series, and nor do I think Jim should be chained to his desk. For it to even exist, let alone be it's best version, he has to keep loving it. And nor do I think I am in any position to advise or ask Jim to do anything with the series. This is just my thoughts on the subject and want to see what those of you around here think.
The problem is a 30 year commitment feels a bit daunting for a series.
So my question to you all is, should he trim the fat a bit and skip to the BAT?
Finish Twelve Months (assuming he has already started, or if he feels he needs to write it etc). Then straight to the BAT, and all the other case files come out after the BAT or as short stories in between and/or after or even just get shrunk down and included in the BAT. To me, the Dragon fight and the Kaiju stuff would be fine in the BAT. The pro-wrestling feels like it would be just as good as a side story, unless there are major cosmology and/or plot reveals in it. Mirror Mirror does feel like it NEEDS to happen, just because the multiverse stuff is going to be so important. Which is why it would have been good as the next book, but I understand that there are important character reasons for Twelve Months (and Jim clearly feels strongly that this book is important to him to be written, so it's hard to not have it now).
So what do you all think?
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The selfish part of me says, "skip to the end." In other words, the BAT, that is because I will never live to see it, nor will a lot of his other loyal fans at this current rate. And as you point out, he will be in his eighties if he continues on his current timeline for getting the books written.
I also think the series would benefit from editing, some of the story lines have suffered some from sprawl. It is also true that Jim wants to write other things, I understand that, but I think it has come at the expense somewhat of The Dresden Files. The long stretch between Skin Game and Peace Talks is a perfect case in point, making loyal fans wait years for the next book in the series isn't fair. Only Jim can answer why the reason for that was, but that cries out for edit,edit,edit!
I think Jim has caught himself in his own trap of, "wouldn't be cool if...." So yeah, having Harry involved in a novel with a pro-wrestling story line seems cool, but how far is it taking us down the road to the BAT? Both Peace Talks and Battle Ground only seemed to present more questions than answers exploding in ten different directions at once, leaving a lot of story lines just dangling perhaps never to be resolved.
I don't want a rushed version of the series, and nor do I think Jim should be chained to his desk. For it to even exist, let alone be it's best version, he has to keep loving it. And nor do I think I am in any position to advise or ask Jim to do anything with the series. This is just my thoughts on the subject and want to see what those of you around here think.
I agree, and I'm not alone in this, many of us have felt that the latter books have a "rushed" quality to them or going through the motions quality.. No, Jim shouldn't be chained to his desk, but is that the real problem? I mean he managed to begin begin one series and finish another since he has been writing The Files.
Finish Twelve Months (assuming he has already started, or if he feels he needs to write it etc). Then straight to the BAT, and all the other case files come out after the BAT or as short stories in between and/or after or even just get shrunk down and included in the BAT. To me, the Dragon fight and the Kaiju stuff would be fine in the BAT. The pro-wrestling feels like it would be just as good as a side story, unless there are major cosmology and/or plot reveals in it. Mirror Mirror does feel like it NEEDS to happen, just because the multiverse stuff is going to be so important. Which is why it would have been good as the next book, but I understand that there are important character reasons for Twelve Months (and Jim clearly feels strongly that this book is important to him to be written, so it's hard to not have it now).
Yes, Twelve Months is an organic outflow of dealing of Harry dealing with his grief and the fall out of how Murphy died. That makes sense, the problem is all the other story lines introduced at the end of Battle Ground, Marcone/Namshiel, Thomas/Justine/baby/Nemesis, break with the White Council, break with Ramirez, dealing with Eb, Stars and Stones and WTF is the purpose of a star born, oh and marriage to Lara.. That is what I mean by sprawl, any one of the above almost deserves it's own novel, or at least a short story, something is bound to get lost. We are still talking about Elaine and Cowl, are they just to be left as dangling story lines never to be resolved? At the time they were introduced they seemed to be pretty important.
Yup, skip to the BAT.
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I agree to an extent; the BAT should come sooner rather than later, especially at the current rate. Mirror Mirro and Twelve Months both feel like they need to happen, and maybe one more to keep things on the proper track (Peace Talks is book 17, and there were originally supposed to be 20+the BAT, instead of 22-23+BAT. That, plus the whole thing with Nick coming in every 5 books, and if I remember correctly, part of what Nick does in the supposed book 20 helps kickstart the BAT). So, 6 more books in total, including the BAT.
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Butcher should do whatever he wants. But I'm voting with my wallet. Let the libraries of the country pay him. If he ever publishes another Dresden Files I'll check it out there. And I will purchase nothing else he writes. I love the books, but the payoff is in the backstory and the BAT. And he seems not to want to kill the golden calf that brings him the lifestyle he wants. So I have no expectation that he will move up the BAT.
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Butcher should do whatever he wants. But I'm voting with my wallet. Let the libraries of the country pay him. If he ever publishes another Dresden Files I'll check it out there. And I will purchase nothing else he writes. I love the books, but the payoff is in the backstory and the BAT. And he seems not to want to kill the golden calf that brings him the lifestyle he wants. So I have no expectation that he will move up the BAT.
I wonder though, he could be killing the golden calf.. Or he feels he doesn't need us anymore because of his other successful series. You say you will go to the library and not buy any more of his books, others might also feel that way. I feel ripped off in many ways by his splitting the last book into two.. Supposedly it was to keep the cost down for us, but when you did the math, it really didn't, and in my opinion didn't really help the story, which is the important bit. But then again G.R.R.Martin has strung us along for years never finishing Game Of Thrones, claiming he is close, still writing and making lots of money writing spin offs from it, so Jim might feel that way as well.
I agree to an extent; the BAT should come sooner rather than later, especially at the current rate. Mirror Mirro and Twelve Months both feel like they need to happen, and maybe one more to keep things on the proper track (Peace Talks is book 17, and there were originally supposed to be 20+the BAT, instead of 22-23+BAT. That, plus the whole thing with Nick coming in every 5 books, and if I remember correctly, part of what Nick does in the supposed book 20 helps kickstart the BAT). So, 6 more books in total, including the BAT.
So three to five years between books, that makes eighteen to thirty years until the end... I doubt I will see the end, and into his eighties by that time as Yuillegan points out, Jim might not either. At least now we know his son can write, maybe the writing of the BAT will be left up to him.
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... The long stretch between Skin Game and Peace Talks is a perfect case in point, making loyal fans wait years for the next book in the series isn't fair. Only Jim can answer why the reason for that was, but that cries out for edit,edit,edit!
I had thought that most DF fans (at least those here on the Paranet, where it seems to be pretty common knowledge) had understood that the long gap was heavily driven by RL issues getting in the way of his productivity... a divorce, a long stint with no home (staying in a friend's spare bedroom), death of a beloved pet, &c.
Writing fiction isn't really a "job" like most of us have, where you can "show up" and "go through the motions," and managerial "productivity metrics" may not even notice a dip. For a writer, emotional turmoil/depression/etc -- and lack of the "right" workspace -- can deliver a HUGE hit to productivity.
Then there's the BG/PT "size" issue. That was a *LOT* of words written, and having to then go back and revise it into TWO books added yet more delay. But, just looking at a "productivity timetable," it's worth noting that "twofer'ing" a PAIR of DF novels (on an 18month/per timing) is three years' wait, exclusive of RL delays & distractions...
... We've been told there are (as per latest information) at least 4 to 5 more books (including Twelve months). At the old rate of one every ~1.5 years that would 6-7.5 years away approximately. At the current rate...it could be double that or more.
Each of the books of the BAT are supposed to be BIG novels. So even were Jim writing at his own rate each book would take 2-5 years each. And there are THREE of them.
So worst case scenario, we could be looking at a 30 year window. Which puts Jim in his 80s. Not brilliant I would think for anyone ...
I'm pretty sure Jim has stated that he plans to alternate between DF novels & OS novels. We'll have to see if he can hit his old "18 months per" productivity rate. And, of course, he's a free agent and could change his mind... if inspiration strikes, he may do 2 in a row (or more) for either DF or OS... with consequent delays to the other series.
But I think it's a fair working estimate to say 18mo, and alternate DF/OS titles. So that's three years wait between DF novels. To get through 4 more DF "Casefiles" will take (about) 12 years.
Then there is the BAT...
I am pretty sure I recall a WOJ stating that he really saw the BAT as one big story, and expected to write it as a single project, NOT interspersed with other novels. My WOJ-archive Fu is weak, however, and my cursory search didn't find anything. OTOH, 3 novels * 18mo = 4.5 year wait; round it up to 5 years, just because.
But... RL: there is NO guarantee that something else won't come along to knock Jim off his stride!
Still, I think something more like 20 years (than 30) years is a "reasonable estimate" to see the end of the Casefiles + BAT.
And maybe Jim will get run over by a bus next week, and it's all moot.
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That is a very good point; the "current" rate was the byproduct of many things stacking against Jim. I feel like some of us forget that he is a person too, with a life and such, and sometimes life gets the best of us. Regardless, I'll be here til the end
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I had thought that most DF fans (at least those here on the Paranet, where it seems to be pretty common knowledge) had understood that the long gap was heavily driven by RL issues getting in the way of his productivity... a divorce, a long stint with no home (staying in a friend's spare bedroom), death of a beloved pet, &c.
All of that is hard, I will grant that, and difficult to be creative in those times. However having said that, he did write the first of a decently long novel in a new series during that time. He also had a lot of personal appearances during that time, this is where all the WOJs come from.
Writing fiction isn't really a "job" like most of us have, where you can "show up" and "go through the motions," and managerial "productivity metrics" may not even notice a dip. For a writer, emotional turmoil/depression/etc -- and lack of the "right" workspace -- can deliver a HUGE hit to productivity.
True, but he did write and complete a new novel in that time.
Then there's the BG/PT "size" issue. That was a *LOT* of words written, and having to then go back and revise it into TWO books added yet more delay. But, just looking at a "productivity timetable," it's worth noting that "twofer'ing" a PAIR of DF novels (on an 18month/per timing) is three years' wait, exclusive of RL delays & distractions...
Splitting the last novel into two wasn't really necessary, at least not for the reason given, because doing it really didn't save us fans any money..
I'm pretty sure Jim has stated that he plans to alternate between DF novels & OS novels. We'll have to see if he can hit his old "18 months per" productivity rate. And, of course, he's a free agent and could change his mind... if inspiration strikes, he may do 2 in a row (or more) for either DF or OS... with consequent delays to the other series.
Or finish one before he goes on to the other! Like all of us, Jim is aging, we change with age, he may never be able to be as productive as he was as a young man. He does have choices, and spreading himself too thin as you suggest does nothing but piss off his fans, pissed off fans don't buy books..
That is a very good point; the "current" rate was the byproduct of many things stacking against Jim. I feel like some of us forget that he is a person too, with a life and such, and sometimes life gets the best of us. Regardless, I'll be here til the end
However he was creative during that, he made creative choices and was productive... And no, given his success, please don't paint a picture of him as some poor slob sleeping on a friend's sofa because his marriage split up.. He might be hurt, hurt badly by his marriage break up, but physically he will have a roof over his head unless he chooses not to.
Still, I think something more like 20 years (than 30) years is a "reasonable estimate" to see the end of the Casefiles + BAT.
And maybe Jim will get run over by a bus next week, and it's all moot.
Or his son can finish it..
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Sons need not pay for the sins of the father. This Butcher's task.
While I'm sympathetic to the idea that he is having a hard time personally that would seem to indicate a need to simplify rather than complicate. His steam punk series is suffering worse then the Files. It was released in 2015 some seven or so years ago.
I'm pretty sure Jim has stated that he plans to alternate between DF novels & OS novels. We'll have to see if he can hit his old "18 months per" productivity rate. And, of course, he's a free agent and could change his mind... if inspiration strikes, he may do 2 in a row (or more) for either DF or OS... with consequent delays to the other series.
You need to adjust your calendar. He already overtime on your schedule. By his own pronouncement CS was suppose to be done in October.
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Sons need not pay for the sins of the father. This Butcher's task.
While I'm sympathetic to the idea that he is having a hard time personally that would seem to indicate a need to simplify rather than complicate. His steam punk series is suffering worse then the Files. It was released in 2015 some seven or so years ago.
You need to adjust your calendar. He already overtime on your schedule. By his own pronouncement CS was suppose to be done in October.
True, I admit to being a wee bit sarcastic about saying his son could finish the series, but hey, it could turn out that way. And I believe you summed it up perfectly about what to do while going through difficult times, "simplify." Now that might mean he quits writing The Files, that would sadden me, but at least we wouldn't be left hanging, dinning on very short story bread crumbs while starving for the next book.
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All of that is hard, I will grant that, and difficult to be creative in those times. However having said that, he did write the first of a decently long novel in a new series during that time. He also had a lot of personal appearances during that time, this is where all the WOJs come from. True, but he did write and complete a new novel in that time.
A lot of WOJ's come from before and after the "down" period.
But... Aeronaut's Windlass came out in Sep.2015, Skin Game was May.2014, Cold Days was Nov.2012 (Jim obviously finished each work some months before they got published). But at that point, it's clear Jim was working at a good clip. He was more or less on-track with his "18ish months per book" pace.
Trying to paint him as somehow self-indulgent(?) for starting the CS series, or for working on CS when... I dunno, you're saying he "owes" the DF fans his exclusive labor?
Or that we in the fandom know better about how to manage time & other author resources than the guy with 30 or so novels already in print???
Seriously?
Consider burnout, too: Jim seems to be using CS -- in part -- to take a needed break from DF. I'm pretty sure, after publication of CS1/AW and before DF15/SG, there is WoJ stating he had been "sick of" Harry Dresden, but post-AW he was now very excited to be in the DV again. So, there's that.
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If he is suffering burnout he has my sympathy but he wears a yoke of his own devising. I'm sure when he was twenty it struck him as a good idea to tie so much of his life to a fictional character. I suspect he might feel differently today. The thing is he's made his boasts and it isn't easy to walk away and put the Dresden Files to bed. He'll be criticized no matter what he does.
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When the Files were less developed he was much more prolific - in 2004-2009 he came out with an Alera book each year, and a Dresden in each year except 2005.
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Trying to paint him as somehow self-indulgent(?) for starting the CS series, or for working on CS when... I dunno, you're saying he "owes" the DF fans his exclusive labor?
Not trying to paint him as self-indulgent, I understand that he has a personal life, and his share of woes, but so do us all. No, he doesn't owe us his exclusive labor, but neither should we be taken for granted, which it is beginning to feel like.
If he is suffering burnout he has my sympathy but he wears a yoke of his own devising. I'm sure when he was twenty it struck him as a good idea to tie so much of his life to a fictional character. I suspect he might feel differently today. The thing is he's made his boasts and it isn't easy to walk away and put the Dresden Files to bed. He'll be criticized no matter what he does.
Yes, he will be criticized, but one has to expect that when one is creative and presents his work to the public. If he is suffering burnout, then he needs to "simplify" as you say, tying yourself to another 20 to 30 years to one series that has become a drudge, isn't going to make it go away, nor will it help the quality of the work. I'm not sure which would be worse for his reputation as a writer, to announce that he is cutting back on the number of books he originally planned for The Dresden Files, or several increasingly poorly written books because his heart isn't in it anymore? I think I know the answer.
When the Files were less developed he was much more prolific - in 2004-2009 he came out with an Alera book each year, and a Dresden in each year except 2005.
Yes, the books during that time period were also more original, that is what got most of us hooked on the series.
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I say yes, simplify, write 12 months and Mirror Mirror. Make the wrestling book the last of the casefiles and then kick off the BAT. Dragons and Kaiju can be in the BAT. They're pretty freaking apocalyptic!
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That's a "hell no!" from me. I want to see every Dresden book from his initial plan and more, if possible.
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No skipping to the end, but it's past time for Jim to get a co-author (or more) who can crank out a book every 12 or 18 months, with Butcher providing the outline, direction, and editing. As a fellow human, I certainly sympathize with Butcher's RL events; many of those events are very painful and some are time-consuming. But his events are the type of things we each go through, yet have to continue to function in our jobs and in other aspects of our personal lives. I've read many an author explain their process - I get up in morning, I sit down, and I write XXX words. Viola, a year later, the novel is finished. Butcher apparently isn't of that persuasion so he needs co-author(s) who can write on a deadline regardless of what RL throws at them.
And you can't tell me that Butcher's publisher hasn't, isn't, and/or won't be pushing this approach. Speculating, but I'd bet the publisher won the fight over splitting Peace Talks into two books because they like money too, Butcher hadn't been pushing out any new product, and they had to be concerned about a shrinking number of fans who were still willing to pluck down hard-earned $$ for a book after many years of waiting. (Collections of short stories don't count, BTW.)
As a customer, I expect an end to the series. I thought I'd live to see that but those odds grow longer each day nothing is published. For that reason, I certainly would never recommend anyone start this series - or any other with an overarching story - until it's finished. And I'm sorry I recommended Dresden to a friend 15+ years ago based upon Butcher's early pace, since now there's no chance she'll be alive when the series ends.
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No skipping to the end, but it's past time for Jim to get a co-author (or more) who can crank out a book every 12 or 18 months, with Butcher providing the outline, direction, and editing. As a fellow human, I certainly sympathize with Butcher's RL events; many of those events are very painful and some are time-consuming. But his events are the type of things we each go through, yet have to continue to function in our jobs and in other aspects of our personal lives. I've read many an author explain their process - I get up in morning, I sit down, and I write XXX words. Viola, a year later, the novel is finished. Butcher apparently isn't of that persuasion so he needs co-author(s) who can write on a deadline regardless of what RL throws at them.
Being an author isn't exactly like one's day to day job, I am willing to cut him some slack there. However having said that, he is writing obviously, a new series..
As a customer, I expect an end to the series. I thought I'd live to see that but those odds grow longer each day nothing is published. For that reason, I certainly would never recommend anyone start this series - or any other with an overarching story - until it's finished. And I'm sorry I recommended Dresden to a friend 15+ years ago based upon Butcher's early pace, since now there's no chance she'll be alive when the series ends.
I know how she feels, several of us feel the same way. I don't know if Jim will go for a co-author to speed things up, also I think the series loses something when that is done. Also as pointed out when he is pushing 80 or so, will Jim be able to do it at all?
No, best to edit down and get to the BAT. For the most part, he adds a little tidbit here and there to hook us into waiting a couple of years or more to the next book. Seems to me that some of those tidbits can be combined into one or two books instead of five.
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I'd like to see him tell the story he wants to tell us about Harry, so if he feels like he needs the 25 books to do so, then I'd like him to write his 25 books, but just, he needs to get writing then.
It's true that life events do make things difficult sometimes, and he has my sympathy for that, and it is also true that artistic jobs are slightly different than the regular jobs, inspiration and mood can play some part in your performance. However, artistic jobs are still jobs if you're getting paid for a product, and you have to produce. It is something that Jim himself has said multiple times in interviews, at the end of the day, writing is his job, so, he's got to do it.
So, honestly, what I'd like is for him to get to writing faster, not to shorten the story.
Fortunately, in a recent interview he said he's been writing more and hopes to be writing 2 books per year again soon. (interview: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/troi/troi-episode-024-jim-butcher-aghNUt8S1cw/) Check around min 24
And also, I vaguely remember Jim talking about writing a short story that would focus on Harry getting back to doing PI work after Battle Ground, in an interview too (can't remember which one tbh), and him mentioning the title "The Law". And now this has shown up on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09Y26JXWM/ref=mp_s_a_1_9?keywords=law+butcher&qid=1650054770&sr=8-9 (but I haven't seen confirmation that this is real tbh, I would imagine it'd be confirmed here or on Jim's site)
But at least, I dunno, there's a little hope that things will get back on track?
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It's true that life events do make things difficult sometimes, and he has my sympathy for that, and it is also true that artistic jobs are slightly different than the regular jobs, inspiration and mood can play some part in your performance. However, artistic jobs are still jobs if you're getting paid for a product, and you have to produce. It is something that Jim himself has said multiple times in interviews, at the end of the day, writing is his job, so, he's got to do it.
Mine as well, but understand an artistic job isn't like any other job, it is an act of creation. That comes from the heart and an intangible called creativity, you just can't pull that out of a certain part of your anatomy, or you can, but the product won't be that good. Also more books don't necessarily
tell the story better, nor do rushed books.
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I have to admit I would be pleased to hear he had an outline written, so it could be continued if need be after he passed. Just in case.
Lord Kinbote, never give up hope on your friend. There is a case in point of a man buying a life estate on the apartment of a 90 year old French woman, where she got residency rights and a monthly payment. He died 30 years later, and never got in the apartment... as she was still alive....
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I am really happy I started reading the series. I have had a really great time on all my around seven end to end read/listen throughs. Of course I really look forward to the next book and the end of the series. But for me it is not as much about the destination as it is about the journey.
Buying an audiobook cost me the same as about ten liters of milk, so I will continue to buy them as soon as they come out no matter the frequency.
I hope he writes them the way he thinks it is the best for him to write, I think it will be best books that way. We don't know enough about the content of the future books to tell which ones are not really nessecary. Which ones of the case files that he has written do you think he should have skipped?