ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: hiddendotgif on March 18, 2022, 11:14:18 AM
-
I have a couple things that I have been thinking about regarding the Coins.
1- If Harry were to pick up a new coin, which do you think it'd be and why?
2- What would happen if someone took up multiple coins? Would the Fallen deck it out for who gets to be the main one in the holder's head?
3- I don't know if it's been said how durable the coins are. I don't imagine they're indestructible, so what would happen to the Fallen if the coin were destroyed? Alternatively, if the coins are instead highly durable, what non-conventional uses could they serve? I was thinking a magical bullet of sorts; Harry and his kinetic energy storing and such could release it on the coin, with no need for gunpowder or fancy bullets.
-
I have a couple things that I have been thinking about regarding the Coins.
1- If Harry were to pick up a new coin, which do you think it'd be and why?
2- What would happen if someone took up multiple coins? Would the Fallen deck it out for who gets to be the main one in the holder's head?
3- I don't know if it's been said how durable the coins are. I don't imagine they're indestructible, so what would happen to the Fallen if the coin were destroyed? Alternatively, if the coins are instead highly durable, what non-conventional uses could they serve? I was thinking a magical bullet of sorts; Harry and his kinetic energy storing and such could release it on the coin, with no need for gunpowder or fancy bullets.
I think Marcone has the coin that Harry would even be remotely interested in. However having said that, I doubt the Harry would consider it after his experience with Lasciel.
-
1.Yeah if it wasn't Lasciel it would be Namshiel.
2.As for multiple coins I imagine it'd be similar to Thomas if he had picked up a coin or the winter mantle and he had that in addition to his own demon.
3.There's a scene in the X Men where Magneto uses a necklace to cut the throats of a bunch of soviets' cops is what comes to mind for me.
-
Harry didn’t even try to destroy Lasciel’s coin, it would take something with a greater power than a Fallen Angel. Uriel has that power but can’t use it. I doubt Hades has that power. I doubt Ethnui has that power.
Now in multiple cultures you have the trope of placing pennies on a dead man’s eyes, but what if instead you placed a Denarius on the Eye? Would/could that destroy it and the Fallen Angel? Probably, eventually. That and the Spear gave Namshiel pause for thought, not for his host, but for himself.
Harry has the tools to kill angels. He is the Penny flatterer of Fate. Nickel heads beware, he knows how to kill Nicky AND Anduriel.
-
Harry has the tools to kill angels. He is the Penny flatterer of Fate. Nickel heads beware, he knows how to kill Nicky AND Anduriel.
Nicky, yes, he knows how to kill him. But Anduriel? No, he hasn't the power to do that, if the coins and their inhabitants could be destroyed, it would have been done long ago.
-
Oh you could probably use the Eye of Balor (which predates the coins) to kill an Angel, I just wouldn’t want to be anywhere in the same universe when it was attempted, the primordial power released would likely destroy the Earth. However no one has ever got Harry to cease his destructive bent when he is set on something. I am just glad his initial thought wasn’t destruction.
“The Earth was on Fire and it was my fault.”
-
“The Earth was on Fire and it was my fault.”
All that's about is Harry Dresden giving himself too much credit, he tends to do that.. ::)
-
Well he is a Destroyer, if anyone can kill an Angel it would be Harry.
-
Well he is a Destroyer, if anyone can kill an Angel it would be Harry.
Maybe that is what he was supposed to be, but when Margaret chose his father to be his father, that all changed. Don't get me wrong, Harry can be a bad ass, but he is no destroyer.
-
He has the potential, but Battle Ground proved he will not live up to that potential, the most important battle wasn’t in Chicago, it was in Harry’s head and Sanya and Butters won, and Rudy lost.
-
I'd say he won't live DOWN to that potential, the crazed megalomaniacal killer.
Power to destroy but he chooses his spots. Like Uriel with more Free Will.
I don't think you could destroy a Coin if you threw it into the middle of a supernova. (Betelgeuse supposedly has less than 100K years left... then again, it could have blown 100 years ago and we don't know yet. Maybe ask Uriel. He likely knows)
-
I think the only thing we've seen that could destroy a coin and it's inhabitant is the Spear.
-
I suspect the Spear can separate Angel and coin, effectively taking the Angel out of the game. Same type of energy of creation, so not destruction. The Eye is a different type of energy of the same magnitude so more likely to destroy. The Spear could be used without the type of blowback the use of the Eye would engender. Who knows, it might even reverse the Fallen status.
Wouldn’t that be terrifying for Nicky and Anduriel? Is that why he was after the Spear
-
I suspect the Spear can separate Angel and coin, effectively taking the Angel out of the game. Same type of energy of creation, so not destruction. The Eye is a different type of energy of the same magnitude so more likely to destroy. The Spear could be used without the type of blowback the use of the Eye would engender. Who knows, it might even reverse the Fallen status.
Wouldn’t that be terrifying for Nicky and Anduriel? Is that why he was after the Spear
No, that wasn't why Nic was after the Spear, who ever holds the Spear cannot be conquered, or something like that, Hitler was looking for it as well.
-
I suspect the Spear can separate Angel and coin, effectively taking the Angel out of the game. Same type of energy of creation, so not destruction. The Eye is a different type of energy of the same magnitude so more likely to destroy. The Spear could be used without the type of blowback the use of the Eye would engender. Who knows, it might even reverse the Fallen status.
Wouldn’t that be terrifying for Nicky and Anduriel? Is that why he was after the Spear
I don't know if even the Eye could destroy one... I would guess it depends on who made the Coin. If TWG - likely indestructible, even to the Eye. They speak of the Swords being able to pierce even Titanic Bronze, and they are wielded by humans, though it might take a more powerful wielder to kill Ethniu with it, but if a Sword could destroy a coin.,.. I have to think that it would have been done at some point.
But.. who DID make the Coins? The idea passes they are NOT prisons for the Denarians, but the Denarians or the like MADE them. They are to be distributed among humans to gain power and corrupt humans. The Denarians are using them as a conduit to get into the world, and go voluntarily. So the Spear won't separate Damned and denarius - they want to be there, though maybe they can be driven out. I think the Fallen status remains. I think that status can only be lifted by TWG. Possibly it could banish THAT Fallen from a Coin, and leave that Fallen unable to contact Earth. But maybe another Fallen can then hop into the Coin. "Lasciel, you are out - Belial, do you want to try?"
There's a few supposed Spears out there, claiming to be the real one. Unconquerable? Then I guess the one the Holy Roman Empire had wasn't real.... some also say the power is in seeing the future, not necessarily winning... else, wouldn't Harry have just had to show up and stick it in Ethniu? Harry can't be conquered then, right? But maybe Harry thinks that, and the Spear telepathically tells him, "Nope. Try it and die. Come up with a Plan B" but doesn;'t tell him what to do.
-
There's a few supposed Spears out there, claiming to be the real one. Unconquerable? Then I guess the one the Holy Roman Empire had wasn't real.... some also say the power is in seeing the future, not necessarily winning... else, wouldn't Harry have just had to show up and stick it in Ethniu? Harry can't be conquered then, right? But maybe Harry thinks that, and the Spear telepathically tells him, "Nope. Try it and die. Come up with a Plan B" but doesn;'t tell him what to do.
According to the series, there is a Shroud copy, so why not a Spear Copy? As to Harry, in the end Ethniu didn't conquer him, it was the other way around. It wasn't pretty, he had a lot of help, but he won, that is the point.. The legend surrounding the Spear doesn't claim that winning would be without sacrifice.
-
The superweapons are supposed to be far older than Christianity repurposed for a different task the Shroud for example may have been the Golden Fleece. Copies were made of these relics of course and obtained veneration becoming powerful to a degree in their own right, and these copies themself turn up under different names.
The Grail would likely have put in Hades safekeeping by Merlin in the 5th Century AD, it strikes me a canny chap like Merlin may have created a fake and put it back into circulation so as not to draw attention to it being out of circulation and did the same with the other superweapons, as and when they were collected (probably by Merlin). Merlin had Excalibur, so would have been able to imbue his fakes with a patina of its godly power, which Harry recognised as being the same as the Swords in Skin Game.
-
The superweapons are supposed to be far older than Christianity repurposed for a different task the Shroud for example may have been the Golden Fleece. Copies were made of these relics of course and obtained veneration becoming powerful to a degree in their own right, and these copies themself turn up under different names.
Metaphorically perhaps, but there is a huge difference between a sheep's skin and woven linen.
The Grail would likely have put in Hades safekeeping by Merlin in the 5th Century AD, it strikes me a canny chap like Merlin may have created a fake and put it back into circulation so as not to draw attention to it being out of circulation and did the same with the other superweapons, as and when they were collected (probably by Merlin). Merlin had Excalibur, so would have been able to imbue his fakes with a patina of its godly power, which Harry recognised as being the same as the Swords in Skin Game.
Fakes can gain power because of people's faith in them.. However remember what Hades said about who eventually gains access to the real thing, has to demonstrate that they have the power and smarts to wield them. So Merlin wouldn't need fakes, he had both power and smarts to use them as needed. The search for the Grail gave his protege, King Arthur a focus to unite and rally his knights and people around. It was found as the story goes, but lost again. Harry has them now, but by the end of the series I bet all of the Artifacts will return to the vault, including the Grail. Nic's plan backfired, he got what he asked for, but not the Artifact he wanted..
-
The fakes were decoys for people to chase after when the real things were carefully locked away.
-
The fakes were decoys for people to chase after when the real things were carefully locked away.
To what purpose? All that would accomplish is destroy faith.
-
I personally don't think Merlin would have hidden them away- but I also wouldn't put it past him.
If he had and used the artifacts, he knows just how powerful they can be. I imagine that Nic may have the smarts to use them, else he wouldn't search for them. Therefore, locking them up may be smart, as Merlin knew he wouldn't be around forever.
-
I personally don't think Merlin would have hidden them away- but I also wouldn't put it past him.
If he had and used the artifacts, he knows just how powerful they can be. I imagine that Nic may have the smarts to use them, else he wouldn't search for them. Therefore, locking them up may be smart, as Merlin knew he wouldn't be around forever.
No, I don't think Merlin would have hidden the Artifacts either, if they were needed to be wielded and he had obtained them, he would have used them. I also think that once they were used to whatever effect he intended to use them, he would have seen that they were returned to the Vault, until they were needed and someone came forth who demonstrated by getting them was worthy of using them.
-
To what purpose? All that would accomplish is destroy faith.
It promoted not destroyed faith, look at the power the fake Shroud accrued, locking the superweapons away was the safe thing, they were clearly on Nicky’s watch list for example, but it would allow faith to wither. Putting the fakes out there not only protected the superweapons, but allowed Faith to grow as people saw glimpses of them out in the World.
Besides, Turin was quite nice at that time of the year, and Merlin needed a holiday.
-
It promoted not destroyed faith, look at the power the fake Shroud accrued, locking the superweapons away was the safe thing, they were clearly on Nicky’s watch list for example, but it would allow faith to wither. Putting the fakes out there not only protected the superweapons, but allowed Faith to grow as people saw glimpses of them out in the World.
Besides, Turin was quite nice at that time of the year, and Merlin needed a holiday.
The Shroud was one item, too many of them the people soon figure out they are fakes, end faith..
The superweapons don't need protection, they are in the vault when not in use.
-
One fake of each item, having them in circulation stops the wrong sort of people wondering where they are and how they can get at them.
Basically the plot of Skin Game.
Turn it around, Marcone essential to getting access to the superweapons was a Denarian all along, exactly the wrong person (having previously had the fake Shroud stolen order) to know anything about their possible location. By the time of Skin Game there is no longer a need to rely on the fakes as the real things are coming back into the mortal world.
-
Turn it around, Marcone essential to getting access to the superweapons was a Denarian all along, exactly the wrong person (having previously had the fake Shroud stolen order) to know anything about their possible location. By the time of Skin Game there is no longer a need to rely on the fakes as the real things are coming back into the mortal world.
Actually we don't know if Marcone was a Denarian yet as of Skin Game. Since the fakes as you call them didn't have near the power of the real thing, they never could be relied on. Yes, Harry felt some power coming from the duplicate Shroud back in Death Masks, it didn't have any effect on the girl/young woman that Marcone had wounded. Also it was nothing like the power he felt coming from the real thing in Skin Game, nor do I think a imitation Spear would have the same effect when Harry was mentally binding Ethniu as the real thing.. Placebos are powerful to be sure, but do not take the place of the real thing.
-
Exactly, it’s why you have fakes in circulation, Merlin used them to accrete faith and become closer to the real thing making the unwary think they were the real thing. He always had the option of exposing them as a fake to debunk them. That’s what he did with the Cottingley Fairies, allowing Toot and his Ilk another century out of the limelight, until the development of Pizza S‘Press. When one is a time traveller there is all sorts of sheninghans you can get up to, faking as well as making history.
-
Exactly, it’s why you have fakes in circulation, Merlin used them to accrete faith and become closer to the real thing making the unwary think they were the real thing. He always had the option of exposing them as a fake to debunk them. That’s what he did with the Cottingley Fairies, allowing Toot and his Ilk another century out of the limelight, until the development of Pizza S‘Press. When one is a time traveller there is all sorts of sheninghans you can get up to, faking as well as making history.
Sorry, just don't buy any of that... ???
-
3- I don't know if it's been said how durable the coins are. I don't imagine they're indestructible, so what would happen to the Fallen if the coin were destroyed? Alternatively, if the coins are instead highly durable, what non-conventional uses could they serve? I was thinking a magical bullet of sorts; Harry and his kinetic energy storing and such could release it on the coin, with no need for gunpowder or fancy bullets.
They're supernaturally durable to some extent. There's a WOJ on it somewhere in the archives to the effect that successfully destroying the coin would free the Fallen inside from its material prison, which would be bad. But none of their enemies in 2,000 years who have got hold of a coin dropped by a dead host and mistakenly thought that melting it would be a win have managed to pull it off.
It's unclear whether Lucifer created the coins personally, but WOJ mentioned he chose the 30 'elite of Hell' most likely to stab him in the back to go into them.
-
Even Harry didn’t consider destruction. Even Harry.
The Fallen are to some degree capable of change when interacting with a human, I wonder what would have happened to Lasciel if she reunited with Lash, who had learned to love Harry?
In most cases the host is either dominated or in total agreement with the Fallen in either case this does not result in change. Namshiel/Marcone is going to be interesting Marcone won’t be dominated, nor are they in total agreement.
This ability to change may explain why one or more of the Fallen have thrown in their lot with the Black Council, plus their basic untrustworthiness, they partnered up with a human who couldn’t be dominated and with whom they were not in total accord, instead over time they changed their minds to follow the human agenda.
I theorise one of the reasons Nicky destroys records of the Denarians is that he doesn’t want people to know he doesn’t control all thirty, and he set up his wife’s faction as semi-loyal to hide this from the majority of the Denarians themselves, everyone in Nicky’s faction thinks x-iel is part of the other faction which is why they never see them, everyone in the other faction thinks x-iel is part of Nicky faction which is why they never see them. We have never seen anything like the full thirty assembled.
We may have seen x-iel or at least his host, the Fallen can keep hidden especially well, Harry may have fought him and not even realised he was facing a Denarian, Cowl for example is a likely candidate, he never pressed Cowl hard enough for him to draw on Hellfire in their battles. Cowl however knew Harry possessed Bob, who had the Word, if Justin was a previous host x-iel would know this. It always bothered me that Cowl knew about Bob when only Justin, Elaine and Harry knew this, so Cowl must have found out from Elaine, unless there was another being present all the time. Everyone goes with the Elaine-Kumori theory, but if she was bound to Summer at the time of Grave Peril, it’s unlikely given how we have subsequently seen how Winter binds.
Harry may be the first person in over a millennia to realise there is a third faction, it may only be one or two members and they are working with the Black Council and Anduriel cannot spy on them. Now there is a fourth.
-
We may have seen x-iel or at least his host, the Fallen can keep hidden especially well, Harry may have fought him and not even realised he was facing a Denarian, Cowl for example is a likely candidate, he never pressed Cowl hard enough for him to draw on Hellfire in their battles. Cowl however knew Harry possessed Bob, who had the Word, if Justin was a previous host x-iel would know this. It always bothered me that Cowl knew about Bob when only Justin, Elaine and Harry knew this, so Cowl must have found out from Elaine, unless there was another being present all the time. Everyone goes with the Elaine-Kumori theory, but if she was bound to Summer at the time of Grave Peril, it’s unlikely given how we have subsequently seen how Winter binds.
It's possible, but not the only way to explain Cowl knowing Justin had Bob and surmising Harry would have taken the skull after defeating Justin.
We have little to no indication in text how much information Justin was sharing with other Circle conspirators without Harry or Elaine's awareness. It could be something as simple as Cowl knew because he helped Justin purloin the valuable assistant spirit out of Kemmler's lab while convincing the Council it had been destroyed. That's a particularly credible alternative if Cowl is Simon - everyone pretty much would have believed Bob was destroyed on his report as Senior Councilor and head of the brute squad.
Of course, Cowl could be both Simon AND hosting one of the Denarians everybody thought was still in a Church vault somewhere. A coin would certainly be helpful in faking one's death.
-
Hellfire would be effective in faking a death curse. Both are supercharging of spells.
For all we know Simon picked up Justin’s coin.
Or the Merlin has it hidden amongst his collection of bottlecaps......
-
All Cowl had to know was that Justin had Bob and that it wasn't there after the fact. Alternatively it is possible that Elaine is Kumori and she knew. You don't need a fallen to be involved at all. It is also possible that Harry was meant to have Bob and to be his caretaker until Cowl or whoever needed him.
The coins are vaguely modeled after the One Ring and you might have to throw them in lava or something similar to destroy them.
-
No one knew Justin had Bob, he picked up Bob from the attack on Kemmler. Only Harry and Elaine knew because I doubt Justin enjoyed in person teaching unless it involved projectiles.
-
No one knew Justin had Bob, he picked up Bob from the attack on Kemmler. Only Harry and Elaine knew because I doubt Justin enjoyed in person teaching unless it involved projectiles.
That may or may not be true but it isn't in the text anywhere that I'm aware of.
-
Justin was an ex Warden and knew Bob was on the most dangerous artefacts list (below the Eye of Balor, The Spear, The Shroud, The Crown, The Placard and Excalibur) which in no way should be in the possession of an individual wizard. Ever. So he didn’t tell anyone in the White Council.
He may have told whoever he was working for but the people he was working for weren’t very nice, abducting children, so I doubt he told them about his Ace in the Hole
-
Justin was an ex Warden and knew Bob was on the most dangerous artefacts list (below the Eye of Balor, The Spear, The Shroud, The Crown, The Placard and Excalibur) which in no way should be in the possession of an individual wizard. Ever. So he didn’t tell anyone in the White Council.
He may have told whoever he was working for but the people he was working for weren’t very nice, abducting children, so I doubt he told them about his Ace in the Hole
That does leave a bit of a plot hole, because supposedly Justin told no one he had Bob because as Luccio told Harry in Small Favor I believe, it was illegal to possess Bob and that he should be destroyed because if I remember correctly no one outside of the Host of the Archive should have access to that much information. Harry knew about Bob and perhaps Elaine might have as well because he eavesdropped when Justin was getting information from Bob.
Elaine could be suspect because she might be infected with Nemesis, the general theory is she carried the infection to Aurora when she fled after Justin died. We've seen how hosts infected by Nemesis act, assuming that Cowl is playing for the same team as Nemesis, it could very well have been her that told Cowl. Another simpler explanation is Cowl followed Harry or had Kumori follow Harry after their encounter in Dead Beat because he thought Harry had or knew the where a bouts of Kemmler's book, which he also wanted so he could do Darkhallow. Harry took Bob with him to Murphy's house, Cowl followed, saw the skull and immediately knew what it was, and took Bob.
-
What’s the fun in a simple explanation?