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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: seanham on January 16, 2022, 01:10:20 AM
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We know that Lea is Harry's Fairy Godmother due to a bargain that Margaret struck with her. However, the specifics are unknown to us currently. Harry benefits from Lea's protection garden in the Nevernever, when Lea continued Molly's apprenticeship, and by holding onto Margaret's red gem. Outside of these three areas, I can't think of any time when Lea did something to help Harry without Harry making a bargain of his own. So my questions are 1) What does it take to get a Fairy Godmother and can any Fae become one and 2) Margaret purposefully made a bargain with Lea, what benefits (other than those mentioned above) have or may come from said bargain?
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There is a WOJ that Margaret’s bargain isn’t fully realised by Harry, and that when he finds out he will want to murder Lea.
Given firstborn trading proclivities, I think Margaret traded protection for her unborn second child for the firstborn daughter of her line, who would be Maggie.
WOJ also has it that Maggie might not be a Wizard but something else. I wonder if Maggie is destined to be the next Leansidhe. That would make Harry want to murder Lea, but might hasten the process.
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There is a WOJ that Margaret’s bargain isn’t fully realised by Harry, and that when he finds out he will want to murder Lea.I fu
I figure she hid Margaret from the White Council and everybody else until Harry was born. She let Malcolm have his time before she did him. Malcolm might have been White Court and Lea freed him from his demon. That last would be fan service to me.
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One tends to forget the fairy (well Fallen Angel) Godfather of Chicago, Gentleman Johnny Marcone.
I do not believe he and Lea have ever shared a scene, a pity really as both are totally obsessed with Harry.
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One tends to forget the fairy (well Fallen Angel) Godfather of Chicago, Gentleman Johnny Marcone.
I do not believe he and Lea have ever shared a scene, a pity really as both are totally obsessed with Harry.
I don't believe that Marcone is obsessed with Harry. Or rather I don't think he was in the past, I think they both used one another but that isn't the same thing.
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If you read Even Hand, you actually see things from Marcone’s point of view, and yes he is obsessed with Harry, even where Harry doesn’t feature in his narrative, the only person he likely fears, as so much of what he does is predicated upon Harry.
The amusing point is that it isn’t shared, Harry hardly thinks of Marcone unless he is directly involved in a case and then it is hatred.
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The amusing point is that it isn’t shared, Harry hardly thinks of Marcone unless he is directly involved in a case and then it is hatred.
It's been a while since I read Even Hand. I always thought that up until Changes, when he refused to help, while Harry thought him despicable on many levels he still call on him to help him on several occasions, and he did. On Marcone's part it isn't so much Harry as the power that Harry represents, that Marcone wanted access to, and got.
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The bullets which killed a hero and which a require a Valkyrie 2 weeks to make are designed to go through Harry’s powerful shield and duster and kill Harry. No wonder even Ethnui felt them.
Originally Marcone had a single bullet in Even Hand (which also has lightweight doors because Harry) but in Battle Field he had a whole bandolier. Between Even Hand and Battle Field, Harry was shot by the Hell Hound and survived, so clearly a single bullet won’t do the job, as proved in Battle Field when Harry was shot in the chest (again) but was (fortunately?) struck by lightening immediately cauterising the wound.
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The bullets which killed a hero and which a require a Valkyrie 2 weeks to make are designed to go through Harry’s powerful shield and duster and kill Harry. No wonder even Ethnui felt them.
Originally Marcone had a single bullet in Even Hand (which also has lightweight doors because Harry) but in Battle Field he had a whole bandolier. Between Even Hand and Battle Field, Harry was shot by the Hell Hound and survived, so clearly a single bullet won’t do the job, as proved in Battle Field when Harry was shot in the chest (again) but was (fortunately?) struck by lightening immediately cauterising the wound.
My point is, what Marcone was always after was the power of the supernatural, that is why he approached Harry to begin with. When Harry didn't work out in the way he wanted he found other means, climaxing in accepting Namshiel's coin.. Now that will indeed give him a wizard's power on steroids, but I think the jury is out on whether or not he will get the kind of "partnership" he wants.
Will Marcone/Namshiel be "equal" like Nic/Andriel has mostly been?
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With Harry, Marcone made it worse for himself, he found someone he couldn’t buy off or intimidate, but couldn’t kill either (death curse/WhiteCouncil retaliation) and that mean’t Harry worried him worse than anyone.
It was a huge mistake for Marcone to try to buy off Harry, he should have left him alone, and certainly shouldn’t have soul-gazed him.
By signing onto the Accords it gave Marcone a degree of protection against the White Council so again Harry influenced Marcone far more than the other way round.
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With Harry, Marcone made it worse for himself, he found someone he couldn’t buy off or intimidate, but couldn’t kill either (death curse/WhiteCouncil retaliation) and that mean’t Harry worried him worse than anyone.
It was a huge mistake for Marcone to try to buy off Harry, he should have left him alone, and certainly shouldn’t have soul-gazed him.
By signing onto the Accords it gave Marcone a degree of protection against the White Council so again Harry influenced Marcone far more than the other way round.
I'm thinking eventually Marcone will regret taking up the coin. While he will love the power that it gives him, he loves calling the shots even more. He is a mob boss after all, yes, I see some partnership between him and Namshiel, but in the end it is the Fallen that call the shots. That is a trap that Harry avoided only in my opinion because of that accidental soul gaze back in Death Masks that he had with a Denarian. That is what kept his will strong against Lasciel's influence once he realized what was going on in his head. I had read somewhere that originally Jim had thought about making Marcone a Holy Knight at some point but changed his mind. I had thought that was a possibility as well, but the signals changed and it was clear that it would be Butters at some point. I still think it is possible that Marcone will be redeemed in some way before the end.
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What if it’s the other way round? Marcone redeems Namshiel causinghis Fallen stays to be reversed.
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What if it’s the other way round? Marcone redeems Namshiel causinghis Fallen stays to be reversed.
That would also be redemption for Marcone as well, wouldn't it? However I am not sure if one of the Fallen can be redeemed. :-\ Harry came as close to anybody in pulling it off when he influenced the Shadow of Lasciel became to Lash, but Lasciel didn't change, if anything she got worse. I think in the case of Fallen Angels, it is up to the Almighty..
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Namshiel would seem to be an agent of Lucifer and he owns Marcone since he actually took up the coin. Mab never forgets and Harry made sure she knows. Marcone is a drug dealing murdering monster who is more or less beyond redemption. Unless he gets a sword and gives up his criminal empire. Does anybody see that as a possible path forward?
What seems obvious to me is that all mortals are now off the playing field. Hendricks is gone. Murphy is gone. Justine is the face of Nemesis. The Cops are now the Men in Black, Chicago PD is now a farm team. Bring the Supernatural or go home seems to be the new mantra.
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Or bring the army. I think it was a point made several times in battle ground that large groups of armed people are dangerous. The army being the clearest example, but also the volunteers and the gang neighborhoods.
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Or bring the army. I think it was a point made several times in battle ground that large groups of armed people are dangerous. The army being the clearest example, but also the volunteers and the gang neighborhoods.
Or a Banner.
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What seems obvious to me is that all mortals are now off the playing field. Hendricks is gone. Murphy is gone. Justine is the face of Nemesis. The Cops are now the Men in Black, Chicago PD is now a farm team. Bring the Supernatural or go home seems to be the new mantra.
Not quite, Harry is still here, Butters, Sanya, Michael, Rashid, Listens to Wind, Rivershoulders, the ladies and gentlemen of the Paranet, and I'm sure some other mortals will pop out of the woodwork..
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I think it was meant to be Vanilla Mortals.
Butters is Butter Brickle
Michael is Raspberry Ripple
Sanya is Rum and Raisin
Charity is Cookies and Cream
Rashid is Coffee
Harry is definitely Rocky Road
River Shoulders is more of a Frozen Yoghurt guy.
Jim just introduced Bradley, and we always have Rudy and Larry Fowler who are all vanilla, and although I don’t believe anyone has made a Durian Ice Cream, if they did it would be Rudy.
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Bradley,
Well a little tuttie futtie is a great change of pace! Fowler is diffidently durian... What's odd is even though durian fruit smells like toe fungus, if you go to an Asian market you will not only find the fruit, but several candies flavored with it and chips as well.. So maybe it shouldn't be judged on it's smell?
Which would be very Fowler.. ::)
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Oh no, Carlos is Tutti Frutti if you think about his role in Dead Beat
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bom bom
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
A wop bop a loo bop a lop ba ba
I got a gal, named Sue, she knows just what to do
I got a gal, named Sue, she knows just what to do
She rock to the East, she rock to the West
But she's the gal that I love best“
Carlos was massively impressed with Harry’s Zombie Dinosaur.
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Oh no, Carlos is Tutti Frutti if you think about his role in Dead Beat
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bom bom
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
Tutti frutti, oh rootie
A wop bop a loo bop a lop ba ba
I got a gal, named Sue, she knows just what to do
I got a gal, named Sue, she knows just what to do
She rock to the East, she rock to the West
But she's the gal that I love best“
Carlos was massively impressed with Harry’s Zombie Dinosaur.
Well then Bradly must be plain old vanilla..
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A freaking square 5 gallon tub of vanilla.
Bradley was definitely set up to be the new competent Vanilla mortal now that Marcone had gone all mint chocolate chip and Hendricks and Murphy went honey mead.
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A freaking square 5 gallon tub of vanilla.
Bradley was definitely set up to be the new competent Vanilla mortal now that Marcone had gone all mint chocolate chip and Hendricks and Murphy went honey mead.
No, Marcone has gone pistachio/almond on us...
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Listen is of course Phish Food after failing to kill the Carpenters.
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Listen is of course Phish Food after failing to kill the Carpenters.
No, since he failed, he is more fertilizer than ice cream at this point.. ::)
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I think Listen is the sort of ice cream who brings his own freezer along, he seems very survival oriented so I can't imagine we have seen the last of him.
I think King Corb is salty bacon ice cream, the person making it thinks it is a great idea, but it is definitely bad taste.
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The Titan protected Listen from Corb, but Corb was incompetent, so I expect Listen survived and left a nice little present for Corb something poisonous or explosive or both under a contingency plan or plans.
Corb in not a vanilla mortal or former vanilla mortal so he can’t be in the ice cream game I am afraid he’s an entirely different kettle of fish. You start vanilla but end up some other flavour of mortal.
Father Forthill is another vanilla mortal, no powers no special status but he is so good at being mortal it almost hurts, he is the vanilla ice cream milkshake of mortals.
Chandler is of course Earl Grey Ice Cream (which is very nice).
Molly started as a vanilla mortal before coming into her power and the Mantle, now she is a Baked Alaska.
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Father Forthill is another vanilla mortal, no powers no special status but he is so good at being mortal it almost hurts, he is the vanilla ice cream milkshake of mortals.
I agree that Father Forthill is good, so good that he might be strawberry.. ;)
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... Will Marcone/Namshiel be "equal" like Nic/Andriel has mostly been?
That's just propaganda of the Fallen; there is no "equality." It isn't even close.
The Fallen can overwhelm their hosts whenever they want.
But sometimes -- if the Fallen get lucky -- they can find a host who is closely-aligned with their own interests and their own preferred M.O. that they don't need to. They just nudge a bit, occasionally. The Master of Shadows has found in Nic a human who just naturally prefers playing the long game, and working by indirection and misdirection.
Remember, the Fallen are straight out of Christianity: their *entire* motivation is the damnation of human souls... but repentance and redemption are always on the table. Anduriel is working on damning as many as he can, but also on making Nicodemus Archleone too self-loathing to ever even seek redemption. Nic's chief sin seems to pride, & Anduriel manipulates him masterfully (as in, puppetmaster).
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That's just propaganda of the Fallen; there is no "equality." It isn't even close.
The Fallen can overwhelm their hosts whenever they want.
But sometimes -- if the Fallen get lucky -- they can find a host who is closely-aligned with their own interests and their own preferred M.O. that they don't need to. They just nudge a bit, occasionally. The Master of Shadows has found in Nic a human who just naturally prefers playing the long game, and working by indirection and misdirection.
Remember, the Fallen are straight out of Christianity: their *entire* motivation is the damnation of human souls... but repentance and redemption are always on the table. Anduriel is working on damning as many as he can, but also on making Nicodemus Archleone too self-loathing to ever even seek redemption. Nic's chief sin seems to pride, & Anduriel manipulates him masterfully (as in, puppetmaster).
As I said, because of that accidental soul gaze early on in Dead Beat with a Denarian, it is a trap that Harry didn't fall into when Lasciel's Shadow was in his head.. Well, maybe not so accidental, Higher Powers at work maybe? Marcone on the other hand could very well have fallen for that trap, thinking that he will continue to run the show now that he has taken up Namshiel's coin.
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The Fallen need to partner up with a mortal being with free will, but not all wills are equal. Some are broken, weak and vacillating easily dominated by their Fallen. Others not so. We have seen Marcone’s will, he cannot be bullied, cajoled or seduced by a Fallen they would have to partner with him on less than equal terms, he can threaten to lay down his coin and he would do it, and place that coin somewhere humans couldn’t get at it for a very, very long time.
Lash started to get to Harry, by subterfuge, when Harry was aware of her he was able to get the upon hand and he changed Lash.
Marcone can dangle in front of Namshiel a couple of things, freedom from Nicky for one and the indulgence of Namshiel’s quest for magical knowledge for another. Both go with Marcone’s interests.
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The Fallen need to partner up with a mortal being with free will, but not all wills are equal. Some are broken, weak and vacillating easily dominated by their Fallen. Others not so. We have seen Marcone’s will, he cannot be bullied, cajoled or seduced by a Fallen they would have to partner with him on less than equal terms, he can threaten to lay down his coin and he would do it, and place that coin somewhere humans couldn’t get at it for a very, very long time.
Lash started to get to Harry, by subterfuge, when Harry was aware of her he was able to get the upon hand and he changed Lash.
Marcone can dangle in front of Namshiel a couple of things, freedom from Nicky for one and the indulgence of Namshiel’s quest for magical knowledge for another. Both go with Marcone’s interests.
The big difference, of course, is Harry was sparring with a mere Shadow. Marcone has the real deal. I don't imagine Namshiel is anywhere near as easily directed as Lash.
Also I suspect laying down the coin would soon be quite hard for Marcone; he's getting older, and Namshiel will start keeping him going very soon.
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But Marcone would lay down the coin if he thought he was being controlled, even if it mean’t his death.
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But Marcone would lay down the coin if he thought he was being controlled, even if it mean’t his death.
Could he? He likes the power, but the cross he may have to carry as a result is not being in control of it.
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Marcone would not only lay down the coin but would clearly make Namshiel painfully aware that he had foolproof plans for putting the coin out of the reach of humanity forever no “going to the Vatican”.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Marcone has dropped his coin once and shown Namshiel his plans as an inducement for his good behaviour with the stick, as well as the carrot of being able to indulge his magical nerdism away from Nicky.
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Marcone would not only lay down the coin but would clearly make Namshiel painfully aware that he had foolproof plans for putting the coin out of the reach of humanity forever no “going to the Vatican”.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Marcone has dropped his coin once and shown Namshiel his plans as an inducement for his good behaviour with the stick, as well as the carrot of being able to indulge his magical nerdism away from Nicky.
It doesn't work that way though.
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But Marcone would lay down the coin if he thought he was being controlled, even if it mean’t his death.
Nicodemus still thinks he is in command.
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Nicodemus still thinks he is in command.
Yup, and that "partnership" with Andriel is what Lasciel tried to sell Harry on, but he wasn't buying.
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Marcone would not only lay down the coin but would clearly make Namshiel painfully aware that he had foolproof plans for putting the coin out of the reach of humanity forever no “going to the Vatican”.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Marcone has dropped his coin once and shown Namshiel his plans as an inducement for his good behaviour with the stick, as well as the carrot of being able to indulge his magical nerdism away from Nicky.
No Coin>>> No magic and no shadow. Unless Butcher wants to break canon completely. This is well established. Put down the coin and anything the coin brought to the table is put down with it. Marcone isn't a wizard. And you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If he puts down the coin no more magic.
And this is Butcher's intent. You might find this funny, but he has now come full circle. With Murphy dead law enforcement is now back in the antagonist column.
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Sanya put down his coin, entirely possible.
As for the power? There are other options, (as Harry once opined) such as the Kringle Mantle making him a genuine Faerie Godfather. Mab and Vadderung owe him big time after Chicago
A lot of people have oft declaimed about Marcone mirroring Harry. So this is definitely an option. Besides this would make Ms Demeter Mrs Kringle, and she knows all about the Ho Ho Ho (sorry for the bad taste, but I can’t resist a pun and NEVER apologise for a pun.).
Besides you can just imagine Jim has been saving up Harry calling Marcone a Faerie Godfather for years.
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Sanya put down his coin, entirely possible.
Not saying that it isn't, but it is also rare enough that it led to Sanya becoming a Holy Knight. There
is a difference between Sanya and Marcone I think, I don't think Sanya is as power hungry as Marcone is. As long as Marcone lusts for power, he will keep the coin I think.
As for the power? There are other options, (as Harry once opined) such as the Kringle Mantle making him a genuine Faerie Godfather. Mab and Vadderung owe him big time after Chicago
I don't see Vadderung giving up one of his personal mantles if it is a mantle. By that I mean it is part of the personae of Odin, I don't think it is something he can give away. Also as we've seen with Harry's struggles with the Winter Knight's mantle, trading a mantle for a coin doesn't guarantee that Marcone will be in control of it or as a result, himself.
Besides you can just imagine Jim has been saving up Harry calling Marcone a Faerie Godfather for years.
Groan, as long as Harry doesn't wake up with Mouse's severed head beside him in bed... ::)
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Sanya isn't the only person to put down a Coin. Harry did it also. Marcone has the will to match theirs, the only question is would it be a situation that warrants it. So far his only saving grace is his refusal to harm innocent children.
You have to believe Marcone has seen John Wick. Mouse and probably anyone living at the Carpenter are off limits unless the the final showdown is already on.
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Sanya isn't the only person to put down a Coin. Harry did it also. Marcone has the will to match theirs, the only question is would it be a situation that warrants it. So far his only saving grace is his refusal to harm innocent children.
You have to believe Marcone has seen John Wick. Mouse and probably anyone living at the Carpenter are off limits unless the the final showdown is already on.
No, Harry never accepted the coin, though Lasciel tried very hard for him to do it. He rejected and changed her shadow which was in his head which is harder, Harry is the only one or one of the only ones according to Michael to do it, that is why he was gifted with Soul Fire by Uriel.
My reference to Mouse is a parody of the movie, "The Godfather." I think that was the reference that C.T. was making about Marcone being a godfather.. I was thinking of the famous scene where the singer wakes up to find the head of a beloved racehorse in his bed.
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The Kringle Mantle can be transferred on Halloween. It makes Kringle immortal, and Odin must die at Ragnarok.
I think that Marcone already has a list of who has been naughty or nice, at least in Chicago, and is checking it twice.
Just imagine how conflicted Harry would be, the self described Santa fanboy. It would be absolute torture, so that is a route Jim will likely take.
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The Kringle Mantle can be transferred on Halloween. It makes Kringle immortal, and Odin must die at Ragnarok.
I think that Marcone already has a list of who has been naughty or nice, at least in Chicago, and is checking it twice.
Just imagine how conflicted Harry would be, the self described Santa fanboy. It would be absolute torture, so that is a route Jim will likely take.
Torturing Harry within the confines of the story seems more his gig. Not with any random thing we can come up with.
Marcone might fit the Kringle mantle, as leader of the Wild Hunt, but he does not fit the Santa mantle as the great gift-giver at this time. He'd have to change too.
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Torturing Harry within the confines of the story seems more his gig. Not with any random thing we can come up with.
Marcone might fit the Kringle mantle, as leader of the Wild Hunt, but he does not fit the Santa mantle as the great gift-giver at this time. He'd have to change too.
Then again, the classic "mob-boss/godfather" modal is someone offers and hands out protection and gifts to those who are weak, kind of Kringle like. In turn they are loyal and pay tribute in various ways, except if you get on the "naughty" list your can get a hell of a lot worse than a little coal in your sock.
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Marcone does not strike me as a man who loves something, magic or knife throwing for it's own sake. But he loves it for the power it gives him. As opposed to Harry who loves magic for it's own sake.
Harry spent all of his life on not taking the wrong kind of power up and mostly succeeded untill the point where he touched a coin briefly to save a baby. Then he never picked up the coin for real and only took bits and pieces of power from the shadow when strictly necessary.
I imagine Marcone got hold of the coin, sat alone in a room and carefully considered it and decided he wanted more power than he currently had because he would need it to continue growing in power. And the he took it in as fast as he possibly could.
It could almost not be more different. As a result I am quite sure that it would be extremely hard for Marcone to put down the coin.
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Then again, the classic "mob-boss/godfather" modal is someone offers and hands out protection and gifts to those who are weak, kind of Kringle like. In turn they are loyal and pay tribute in various ways, except if you get on the "naughty" list your can get a hell of a lot worse than a little coal in your sock.
Depends how the sock full of coal in then used by this version of Santa’s ‘little helpers.’
One telling thing is that Marcone has never been into succession planning, that much is clear from Small Favour, he is aging out and aware that Harry still has centuries ahead of him. A coin (or a Mantle) allows Marcone to think genuinely long term, something he alluded to in Battle Ground. His two objectives has always been (1) get more power and (2) maintain power. The coin (or a Mantle) achieves both objectives, as soon as he judges that it doesn’t or there is a better alternative he will drop it, he is beholden to no one.
Taking up the Kringle Mantle doesn’t mean that he would necessarily swear fealty to Mab, but would free him from the coin, he could decide to go Wildfae, he genuinely respects Mab and likes working with someone with such a cold logical mind akin to his own (Mab and Marcone are very similar personalties) and Marcone is learning a lot from her, but even so he would not want to be a Vassal. He would take the Mantle only if he could be free, and Mab currently owes him big after the battle of Chicago. He would I think be an ally rather than a vassal.