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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on January 13, 2022, 09:19:42 PM
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Harry cut off all other prisoners not in the same confinement mode from communicating with Thomas. There's only one prisoner before Thomas in 'contemplation' mode. The British guy.
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The correct answer is that no one knows and Jim has said nothing, other than it isn't Merlin.
Speculation includes Chandler and any other person with an English accent. Some believe Jim is dissembling and that it still might be Merlin.
My personal favorite is that it is Merlin (AKA) Harry Dresden coming back to his present in stasis and attempting not to change the timeline, so that there are effectively two Harry's. He can't openly come out while Harry 1 hasn't gone back. He may have made a stop or three coming back to the future. Dropped a copy of Calvin and Hobbes off in the basement once and fixing LC another. He's doing a once around time loop.
I personally will stick with this until Jim decides to enlighten us, or until I croak, whichever comes first.
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Wild thought, it is Kemmler, but that doesn't fit because he has been a prisoner though several Wardens.
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Wild thought, it is Kemmler, but that doesn't fit because he has been a prisoner though several Wardens.
Kemmler has been a prisoner? I thought Kemmler was a former Warden of the island, maybe three Wardens back, but never a prisoner. He was heading back to the island to release all of the prisoners when the Council and friends finally nailed him.
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Kemmler is apparently dead. One would think the Warden's would have remembered incarcerating him. I can't imagine the White Council would have approved the idea of imprisoning the man on the very island he wished to be on.
Also, I think he has a German accent in a Fistful of Warlocks.
As most villains in the series have a British accent, and the guy is a prisoner on Demonreach who quite literally feels the need to be imprisoned, I would say he probably isn't a good guy.
Also, do we know that only the British Prisoner is the only being in contemplation mode?
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Kemmler is apparently dead. One would think the Warden's would have remembered incarcerating him. I can't imagine the White Council would have approved the idea of imprisoning the man on the very island he wished to be on.
Also, I think he has a German accent in a Fistful of Warlocks.
As most villains in the series have a British accent, and the guy is a prisoner on Demonreach who quite literally feels the need to be imprisoned, I would say he probably isn't a good guy.
Also, do we know that only the British Prisoner is the only being in contemplation mode?
I said it was a wild thought, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough when I said it didn't fit because he'd been a prisoner though several Wardens. By that I meant that the so called "British Prisoner," had been in the prison though several Wardens which wouldn't fit Kemmler, because he was killed or dealt with in the last hundred years. I pulled that number out of the air because I do not remember a year given for his demise. However having said that, he still could show up in some form or other.. He wouldn't be the first character that Harry thought was dead, that wasn't.
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Hey, in Star Trek Jack the Ripper was an extraterrestrial who possessed a human..... maybe that's Jack? ;)
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Hey, in Star Trek Jack the Ripper was an extraterrestrial who possessed a human..... maybe that's Jack? ;)
Hmmmmmmm........Could be.. ::)
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Whichever. I'm sure it won't have any strong implications on Thomas' eventual fate. ::)
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Whichever. I'm sure it won't have any strong implications on Thomas' eventual fate. ::)
I think it is too soon to tell. :-\
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Kemmler is apparently dead. One would think the Warden's would have remembered incarcerating him. I can't imagine the White Council would have approved the idea of imprisoning the man on the very island he wished to be on.
Also, I think he has a German accent in a Fistful of Warlocks.
As most villains in the series have a British accent, and the guy is a prisoner on Demonreach who quite literally feels the need to be imprisoned, I would say he probably isn't a good guy.
Also, do we know that only the British Prisoner is the only being in contemplation mode?
If it’s a telepathic voice and is that of a villain, Harry’s mind immediately assigns it a British accent, it’s from watching too much films and TV as a child where the bad guys not only had British Accents but also spoke with Received Pronunciation due to being classically trained RADA graduates slumming it from the Royal Shakespeare Company.
The British Prisoner may not be so, but may be. Or Jim wrote the character just to get James Marsters to say “piss off”. I am sure he writes so much Toot and Lacuna just to get Marsters to do the voices.
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As most villains in the series have a British accent, and the guy is a prisoner on Demonreach who quite literally feels the need to be imprisoned, I would say he probably isn't a good guy.
Also, do we know that only the British Prisoner is the only being in contemplation mode?
There was one prisoner held below in a kind of unique stasis, something that could most closely be considered sleep.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 322). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
That appears to answer your question. In the initial encounter his emotional state is described.There was a long moment of silence. And then a thought filled with a terrible weariness and purely emotional anguish, like something I’d experienced only at the very lowest moments of my life, flowed into me—but for this being, such pain wasn’t a low point. It was a constant state. Someone who needs to be here. Go away, boy.
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 4). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
If he a bad guy he would seem to be a repentant bad guy. He could also be someone who has watched too many bad things happening to those around him. It depends on how canny you believe the author is. Is the British accent a play against expectations?
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If he a bad guy he would seem to be a repentant bad guy. He could also be someone who has watched too many bad things happening to those around him. It depends on how canny you believe the author is. Is the British accent a play against expectations?
Maybe not a bad guy or evil villain in the classic sense, but a good person forced to do "bad" things for the greater good. It seems contradictory I know, but think of ordering the dropping of the atom bomb on Japan to end the war and save lives, good, but evil because in the process, cost lots of innocent lives and began the arms race. It is a moral dilemma, say a very powerful wizard is forced to do bad things for the greater good one too many times. The very conflict of emotions may make him wish to sleep, he also may feel he deserves the "punishment" he is receiving. Though Jim says he isn't, it does fit the legends surrounding Merlin according to Bulfinch's Mythology. We will have to see, I do agree about the British accent that Harry thinks he hears, not just with this prisoner, but Outsiders as well. Heck it might even be a star born thing and that is why he hears it the way that he does.
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He says he deserves to be there, it sounds almost as if he is seeking Sanctuary.
One of my many, many theories is that he is Leas ex and the father of Bob, this is the only place he is safe from her.
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He says he deserves to be there, it sounds almost as if he is seeking Sanctuary.
One of my many, many theories is that he is Leas ex and the father of Bob, this is the only place he is safe from her.
I don't know if he is seeking Sanctuary :-\. But then again in the Middle Ages when someone entered Church grounds and claimed it, they also became in effect prisoners because if they left the grounds they were subject to whatever they were seeking Sanctuary from.. At least that is the way I understand it, but there might be more fiction than fact there.
I think it is more a case of someone who has done some really bad stuff and it caught up with him. He understands fully what he did was wrong, and the only way he can atone for it is prison.. Another idea is perhaps he is there because he was evil all his life, did something good at the end, but it wasn't enough to warrant full redemption, so this is sort of a compromise, as in he isn't going to Hell because of what he did, but he doesn't belong in purgatory either.. Kind of like in the Bernard Shaw play, "Joan of Arc." While she was being burned at the stake, she called out for a Cross, the guards and officials refused to get her one, all except for one priest who did go eventually to fetch one for her. Meanwhile a lowly English soldier thought this was wrong and made a Cross out of two of the sticks from the pile they were burning her on and gave it to her, for this act he was allowed one day off from being in Hell, a year..
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@Mira
Anything is possible. However per Peace Talks getting out is dependent on the Warden being willing to release you. Whereas you chose sanctuary and could leave when you wished, assuming that you were prepared to deal with what awaited you.
If he is a soul destroying villain then placing Thomas in with him seems relatively silly. Per the text Harry doesn't seem to be trying to actively identify him and if Alfred has an index he doesn't appear to be sharing.
And like everybody else in the books currently Alfred is keeping secrets. That he has the capability has been apparent since Ghost Story. Now the author has made it explicit as of Peace Talks.
The crystal is marked as the size of a coffin. The section of the prison is the only one where sleep is available. This suggests that the prisoner is human and human sized.
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The crystal is marked as the size of a coffin. The section of the prison is the only one where sleep is available. This suggests that the prisoner is human and human sized.
Just because the crystal is the size of a human coffin doesn't mean that the prisoner is human. There are plenty of monsters in mythology that are human-sized, in the Dresdenverse we have vampires that are human-shaped, and many consider them to be monsters but they are not human.
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In and of itself you are correct, however dark gods and monsters don't need sleep.
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In and of itself you are correct, however dark gods and monsters don't need sleep.
I'm not so sure of that..
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Then I stand corrected, say instead,
There was one prisoner held below in a kind of unique stasis, something that could most closely be considered sleep, though he could also awaken and perform limited communications for short periods of time. It was, as best as I could understand, the only protocol with sanity-saving sleep built into it.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 322). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
If you ran across this in SF the prisoner would be a sleeper in suspended animation or in an area where time is suspended.
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Then I stand corrected, say instead,If you ran across this in SF the prisoner would be a sleeper in suspended animation or in an area where time is suspended.
Which makes him unique from the others, the question is why is he unique?
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I gave my answer in my first post on this subject. I think it's Harry. Butcher says not. It's his book.
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I gave my answer in my first post on this subject. I think it's Harry. Butcher says not. It's his book.
Then it is Merlin..
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It's like Schrödinger's Cat. Until you look into the box you don't know. The idea comes from Vadderung's dialog in Cold Days when in an exchange where Harry asks if he can do it, ie save the island, Vadderung responds that perhaps he already has. This prose would normally indicate that the protagonist had done this before.
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It's like Schrödinger's Cat. Until you look into the box you don't know. The idea comes from Vadderung's dialog in Cold Days when in an exchange where Harry asks if he can do it, ie save the island, Vadderung responds that perhaps he already has. This prose would normally indicate that the protagonist had done this before.
Or it hints that at some point Harry was Merlin.. Or Vadderung already knew about what Harry could do if he wanted with the jewel he inherited from his mother. It also fits with Harry's feeling that he had been on the island before in Small Favor. Only problem with your theory that the "British Prisoner" is Harry that I can see is I think there are "rules" about about that cannot be gotten around, or bad things happen.
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By any measure outside of fiction time travel is impossible because it violates causality. Which means that cause and effect gets broken. The only way to get around it is to cheat or just flat out ignore it. Butcher is trying to cheat in my opinion.
He creates a character that has been around since the White God said let there be light. Then he puts restrictions on what those characters can do. He then creates a new character that is no longer bound by those restrictions. That's the cheat. It may not be his intent but it's what he wrote.
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By any measure outside of fiction time travel is impossible because it violates causality. Which means that cause and effect gets broken. The only way to get around it is to cheat or just flat out ignore it. Butcher is trying to cheat in my opinion.
He creates a character that has been around since the White God said let there be light. Then he puts restrictions on what those characters can do. He then creates a new character that is no longer bound by those restrictions. That's the cheat. It may not be his intent but it's what he wrote.
Only if the prisoner is Harry, which I doubt.
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Only if the prisoner is Harry, which I doubt.
Such is your privilege.
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On whether it was a good idea to let Harry communicate with the British prisoner. I guess 7t was a chance. If Harry can get Thomas out quickly it probably won't matter much. If Harry had died an Thomas was stuck there for 50+ years, maybe talking with a possible villain a couple of times a year is better than nothing.
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Not knowing who or what he is I wouldn't have any idea.
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The unnamed prisoner says that "He belongs to be here" (paraphrasing). I wonder if Thomas will adopt this same attitude after talking with him or once he gets off the Island that he will feel that he belongs back in prison.
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The unnamed prisoner says that "He belongs to be here" (paraphrasing). I wonder if Thomas will adopt this same attitude after talking with him or once he gets off the Island that he will feel that he belongs back in prison.
He might, he was troubled before, that is why when he went to live with Harry he starved himself because he knows on some level it is wrong to feed on other people. Then he found some peace in nibbling on people, bringing them pleasure while feeding his needs. Then after the Skinwalker got done with him, he once again saw humans as kine. Not saying that he fed until death more people since Turn Coat, but he now he has to face the harm that he has done. If he cannot rid himself of his Hunger Demon, he may also come to believe that he belongs where he is at.
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The phrase is "Someone who needs to be here." In some ways it is similar to Lea's interaction with Harry in Arctis Tor during Proven Guilty.
“Child,” she said. Her voice was weak. “You must not free me.”
I stared at her, feeling confused. “Why?”
She gritted her teeth and said, “I cannot yet be trusted.
Another way to read it is to assume the the person is healing. Much like Thomas is expected to do. The third alternative being that the prisoner is there waiting for something to happen. Or some mix of the three. Pick your poison.
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In Lea's case what remained of her sanity due to the infection knew she couldn't be trusted. It is a creepy scene because at first Harry didn't believe her, then crazy infected Lea appeared and begged him to release her.
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Yep, she was fruitier than a nut cake.
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Yep, she was fruitier than a nut cake.
Isn't nuttier than a fruit cake? :-\
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I dare to be different.
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I dare to be different.
8)
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The phrase is "Someone who needs to be here." In some ways it is similar to Lea's interaction with Harry in Arctis Tor during Proven Guilty. Another way to read it is to assume the the person is healing. Much like Thomas is expected to do.
Thanks for finding the quote. I like the idea of needing healing. I wonder if being in Contemplation is another way someone could be healed from being infected by Nemesis? Or if the prisoner is infected and cannot leave because if they would, then part of Nemesis would be free to act on the world.
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Interesting thought that it could be one of the Nem-fected. Have we decided whether that ability has limitations? In other words, is there a limit to the number of individuals that can be infected? Much like the 13 corner hounds, or something like that.
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Interesting thought that it could be one of the Nem-fected. Have we decided whether that ability has limitations? In other words, is there a limit to the number of individuals that can be infected? Much like the 13 corner hounds, or something like that.
Presumably He Who Walks Beside can only split his attention in so many directions, but beyond that we have had no idea or hints from Jim as to the outsider's capacity yet.
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Perhaps the "British Guy" is Demon Reach's in-house psychologist?
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It seems unlikely, but extremely hardcore!
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Most likely a previous Warden, Jim won’t say who the last two Wardens were and I think that the last was Fortier as a placeholder, an absentee to prevent Kemmler from regaining the Wardenship which he had previously held. He had no interest in Demonreach, which made him perfect after Kemmler. His murder was to free the wardenship for a Black Council Member for access to the ley lines except some idiot blundered into it instead. The only definite info we have on Wardens are Merlin, Kemmler and Harry. Harry is the only local.
Humans can’t be held permanently according to WOJ but not permanently Could still mean centuries and Thomas falls within that category according to Demonreach so presumably would a Wizard, so they could have been in there centuries, a blink of an eye for Demonreach which thinks in geological time as a genius loci. That’s one reason I think it’s Bob’s dad, hiding from Lea.
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Also, do we know that only the British Prisoner is the only being in contemplation mode?
IIRC there was some Harry narration when he confined Thomas that there was only one other prisoner under the contemplation protocol.
It wasn't explicitly stated to be the British guy, but it's on the same tier of really strong implications as the blackstaff being MW's walking stick.
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We know Buffy exists in the Dresdenverse, Thomas had a Buffy T-Shirt, Spike as a character exists in the show Buffy in the Dresdenverse, so the actor James Marsters exists in the Dresdenverse. In the Dresdenverse James Marsters fell on hard times after Buffy, with no audio book work to fall back upon (the Dresden Files only exist as Harry’s personal notes in the Dresdenverse) and fell in with a bad crowd such as the Red Court, due to being a bit too method in his approach to William the Bloody, becoming a half vampire leading to his imprisonment in Demonreach, to deal with the thirst. He is unaware the Red Court are all now dead, and he is fully human again.
The British Prisoner is therefore James Marsters doing his Spike accent, and the proof is that in Cold Days, the British Prisoner is voiced by none other than James Marsters. Irrefutable proof!
And not the most absurd theory about the British Prisoner. Perhaps the most fun one though, imagine James Marsters coming across this reveal, it is beautifully meta.
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Oh, if you want to twist it up a little - this is pretzel logic beyond anything Steely Dan came up with....
We know those prisoners can be in for years, centuries... many would die of old age. We don't want that.
But we know time passes at different rates in the NeverNever. Murph got canned for missing work when she came back and found she had missed a day because the nevernever region she was in time ran slower than ours.
So - we want the prisoners to avoid aging. Maybe the cells are really little pocket dimensions, with time disjoint from ours. The crystals are simply the portal windows between the two dimensions. That way the prisoners need not age.
It has been suggested at times the Eebs survived the bloodline curse, as they were being held off-dimension in Faerie by the Erlking. So - maybe being off dimension may let you survive the bloodline curse? Though possibly the Eebs survived the curse to die in the torture chambers of the goblins.
But Marsters, held off dimension, was ALSO isolated in quarantine, safe from the bloodline curse - so if he is freed, he is still a half-vamp - the ONLY one of the Red Court blood - and can become the new Red King....
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It’s stasis, there is no physical change such as aging, so Thomas wouldn’t Starve to death. It’s a temporal thing, the body is held in stasis, the mind not. It has been stated parts of an inmate can be released rather than the complete inmate. Most people think Mantle, coin, demon etc, but what if Harry can release the mind or the body separate from each other? We know from Corpsetaker bodyswapping is possible. This may be where Kemmler figures that out.
On that basis Kemmler may have stashed a previous Starborn in the 1800’s whilst he was still working out the Darkhallow. You might just have a wizard Starborn from the previous cycle survive long enough for this to happen, the equivalent of Ancient Mai.
The Never Never is part of the Universe, the curse would have got the EEBs. Red Court Vampires would exist in other Universes so will likely appear in Mirror Mirror together with the Ick, probably harassing Wizards hiding out in Chicago.
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I should think in a true stasis, both mind AND body are frozen - the brain has to work to think - synapses firing, etc.
Now, as for swapping - if I swapped, say, with Paul Mc Cartney, do I get a Liverpool accent when I talk? Is that mental, or muscle memory? Corpsetaker jumped bodies as Luccio was about to kill her ion the duel - could the brit even be Kemmler, swapping in to let the Wardens kill his old body?
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One tends to forget Harry possessed Mort temporarily and used Harry’s power set. Corpsetaker retained her powerset from body to body, but Luccio did not. Luccio was forced into the bodyswap, Harry and Corpsetaker were initiators was that the difference?
Harry is a necromancer, it’s part of his power set, he may not like it but he definitely has natural talent in that direction. I doubt Luccio did. Is that the difference? I would suggest it is part of the spirit element of any natural necromancers power set, Harry is not only strong in Fire, but strong in Spirit, that strength allows him to summon the powerful and bind them, and means he can carry over his full power set on a possession/bodyswap. The same parts of his powerset which makes him a necromancer make him a good Warden.
If so, then Kemmler would have been in a similar position, and being an evil genius would know this. He would definitely have experimented with the set up at Demonreach to see what he could acheive seeing what parts of an inmate he can release and retain, leading to what Corpsetaker was able to do.
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Harry is a necromancer, it’s part of his power set, he may not like it but he definitely has natural talent in that direction.
No, he read Kemmler's how to book, he has the talent to pull it off, as apparently most wizards do. That's why one of the Seven Laws is against it. However raising Sue once doesn't make him a necromancer. Since he didn't raise Mort from the dead, it wasn't necromancy.
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Really? every Necromancer Harry has met has commented on his ability in this area to some degree or other and in Battle Ground just before he takes on Drakul and seven Necromancers Harry comments that four Necromancers nearly wrecked Chicago before, five if you include him, a neophyte who still managed to walk off with best in show.
As it stands it was Harry and not any of the other four Necromancers who actually summoned the Erl King, he has an intuitive ability in this area as to what would work best and where, and has a considerable reach. He has summoned the Erl King, Titania, Molly, Mab and Mother Winter, all strong enough to avoid a summons (but admittedly in at least half of those cases Harry being Harry and thus intensely annoying may have resulted in the summoning being successful, e.g. Titania hitting Harry with a lightening bolt.)
Necromancer is not necessarily a bad thing, Odin is a Necromancer and he is beloved of children everywhere (he must be VERY conflicted when a child asks for relative or pet to be brought back as their Christmas wish, one slip and a little girl has an Einenjharen hamster terrorising the local cats over Christmas. Now that’s a children’s book I would like to see.)
Harry as a Necromancer has resurrected a beloved dinosaur, and children love dinosaurs.
Harry’s natural ability in this area, plus Soulfire suggests that he is going to resurrect someone, I suspect when Odin dies it is Murphy (all Einenjharen die when Odin does)
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Really? every Necromancer Harry has met has commented on his ability in this area to some degree or other and in Battle Ground just before he takes on Drakul and seven Necromancers Harry comments that four Necromancers nearly wrecked Chicago before, five if you include him, a neophyte who still managed to walk off with best in show.
One robin doesn't make the spring nor does one T Rex make a necromancer.
Since Odin is a god, I don't think he fits into the necromancer category either.
As it stands it was Harry and not any of the other four Necromancers who actually summoned the Erl King, he has an intuitive ability in this area as to what would work best and where, and has a considerable reach. He has summoned the Erl King, Titania, Molly, Mab and Mother Winter, all strong enough to avoid a summons (but admittedly in at least half of those cases Harry being Harry and thus intensely annoying may have resulted in the summoning being successful, e.g. Titania hitting Harry with a lightening bolt.)
All of the above listed were alive when summoned, successfully or not, necromancy had nothing to do with it.
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Odin is a Necromancer and he is beloved of children everywhere (he must be VERY conflicted when a child asks for relative or pet to be brought back as their Christmas wish, one slip and a little girl has an Einenjharen hamster terrorising the local cats over Christmas. Now that’s a children’s book I would like to see.)
:o I didn't know I needed this book before today. Now I know, and I want it. ;) ;D
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Luccio also talked about possibly training up her new body to her previous ability. Possibly magic use is part physical and part mental - nerves, perhaps, conduct magical force, without training they can only do so much. Luccio swapped into a non-mage and had SOME ability. Maybe Corpsetaker is limited in the bodies of non-mages, but she can pull her one specialty. Aren't the Black Court eager to get wizards to turn? Maybe it is not just mental. Unfortunately for Luccio, looks like the little cutie she inhabits just isn't going to be able to get where she had been. Sounds a little Heaven Can Wait (Beatty version) ? His new body had to be trained up to get NEAR his old one.
And summoning is not necromancy. No death involved.
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Luccio also talked about possibly training up her new body to her previous ability. Possibly magic use is part physical and part mental - nerves, perhaps, conduct magical force, without training they can only do so much. Luccio swapped into a non-mage and had SOME ability. Maybe Corpsetaker is limited in the bodies of non-mages, but she can pull her one specialty. Aren't the Black Court eager to get wizards to turn? Maybe it is not just mental. Unfortunately for Luccio, looks like the little cutie she inhabits just isn't going to be able to get where she had been. Sounds a little Heaven Can Wait (Beatty version) ? His new body had to be trained up to get NEAR his old one.
And summoning is not necromancy. No death involved.
Nor is body switching like the Corpsetaker does,necromancy, she doesn't bring anyone back from the dead to do it. If I remember correctly, Luccio is limited in her new body, while she can still do
the wizard thing, her ability to forge swords to match her new wardens is gone. She also found that her young new body retained all the urges most healthy young bodies have. It is one of the reasons why she was so vulnerable to Peabody's ink and could be manipulated into making a play for Harry.
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Necromancy requires summoning the spirit of the deceased, and to bind them, whether it is a ghost, a zombie or Sue, they require similar power, skill and technique to a summoning and binding. That evening Harry summoned and bound the Erl King and Sue, difficult to say which is the greater feat, but we know Sue impressed the Erl King to the extent that he forgave Harry’s past transgressions.
Body swapping again falls into the same skill set, it is taking the spirit from a living body and severing the link, as Corpsetaker was able to do to Butters as a spirit, but not to Mort. Then using you will to take over the vacant vessel.
Whilst summoning is something wizards are taught, necromancy is not, but the next nearest use of the skill set for summoning a spirit are those for summoning an entity. Demonreach has multiple times been described as a spirit, being a physical manifestation of the the island, a genius loci, literally “spirit of the place”. In summoning Molly we have the whole debate between spirit and the flesh in escaping the summoning circle. Harry summoned and bound Demonreach by accident, doing a different ritual or Sanctum invocation to allow him to draw on local power.
Corpsetaker was looking for a body with talent, Molly was too powerful for her to overcome as a spirit especially with Lea in tow, Mort was the next most powerful practitioner in Chicago, more powerful than suspected. I suspect both Harry and Mort are both exceptionally strong in spirit, even if their implementation is very different, the difference is that Harry is as strong in other areas like fire. Mort would be able to summon entities like Harry can and bind them, he probably could have been a warden of Demonreach.
Corpsetaker would also be strong in spirit so fitting into a new body whether by possession or swap is easiest if one is strong in spirit, especially if that is all that you have left to work with. It makes it easier to carry over non-spirit capabilities into a new body. Luccio was strong but perhaps not as strong as an ectomancer or Necromancer in spirit, she could be forcibly swapped by Corpsetaker and be unable to use her full capabilities in her new body, unlike Corpsetaker or Harry.
If strength in spirit rests with the spirit and earth, wind, fire and water with the body this would explain everything, why Harry couldn’t manipulate the real world as a ghost, why Luccio has problems adjusting and Corpsetaker did not, why Luccio was vulnerable to Peabody’s influence etc. As a wizard ages they become more resistant to mental influence and develope foreknowledge, is this the spirit acting on the body, why Luccio hopes to get some power back? How Charity allowed her power to waste away and why Mort was able to regain his?
Necromancy, summoning and body swap ALL require the ability in spirit to dominate another spirit, and bind it, in a circle, to zombie flesh or mortal plane with a drum, or to a living body.
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Necromancy requires summoning the spirit of the deceased, and to bind them, whether it is a ghost, a zombie or Sue, they require similar power, skill and technique to a summoning and binding. That evening Harry summoned and bound the Erl King and Sue, difficult to say which is the greater feat, but we know Sue impressed the Erl King to the extent that he forgave Harry’s past transgressions.
Which is a skill any decent wizard can do, it is just a matter of knowing how... It doesn't make them necromancers...
Definition according to Google;
What exactly is a necromancer?
noun. a person who uses witchcraft or sorcery, especially to reanimate dead people or to foretell the future by communicating with them: In the story, the boy is killed by a serial killer and then revived as a zombie by a necromancer.
Other than Sue, Harry didn't do the above.. Having the same skill set doesn't a necromancer make.
Example would be a person who is good with a gun, an expert marksman even, but doesn't make them a murderer or a killer, unless of course they go around killing people.
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Different wizards have different strengths, Harry is rubbish at illusions and veils, he got better, through practice and teaching Molly.
His first attempt at Necromancy was a 66 million year old tyrannosaur, not a more recent spirit or bone, a fossil, and he pulled it off first go. Kemmler would have been impressed.
Harry calls himself a Necromancer, other wizards historically seen to be Necromancers by the wizard community call Harry a Necromancer. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is dead dead, it’s a zombie duck and has been brought back by a Necromancer. In this case it’s the ducks remote ancestor, Sue.
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As I said, one robin doesn't make a spring.. One attempt at necromancy doesn't make an necromancer... Having the skill to be one is one thing, but actually being one is another, Harry has too much respect for the Seven Laws, though now that he is booted out of the Council that may change.
Still I cannot see Harry drumming up a bunch of zombies anytime soon..
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Lets see what Mirror Harry is up to in Mirror Mirror.
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He's a Vampire and he eats Starborn's.
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No, he read Kemmler's how to book, he has the talent to pull it off, as apparently most wizards do. That's why one of the Seven Laws is against it. However raising Sue once doesn't make him a necromancer. Since he didn't raise Mort from the dead, it wasn't necromancy.
I think there's a bit of a miscommunication, a differing definition, around the term "necromancer."
It seems to me that @Mira is using it as a functional/behavioral descriptor: someone who summons/binds the dead (corpses and/or spirits), someone who regularly does so. Is that correct, @Mira?
On the other hand, @ConspiracyTheorist seems to be working more on the basis of it being something inborn: a natural proclivity or talent, regardless of whether said talent is actively pursued. Is that correct, @CT?
Personally -- if my understanding is correct -- I think both are correct: Harry DOES have an exceptional gift in this regard, substantially beyond most wizards' ability. Harry does NOT routinely study or practice this, and only uses it rarely.
But Sue wasn't Harry's first act of necromancy; he had another stand-out instance: defeating Bianca, by summoning a vast number of shades. Notwithstanding the "weakened barriers" making that easier, we have to note that Harry:
- Did use necromancy
- Used it on an impressive scale
- Used it to defeat the student (Bianca) of a necromancer (Mavra)
- Failed to defeat Bianca using his own favored magical specialties (which usually are effective)
- Did all of that without formal necromantic specialization, just raw will & magic and... native talent
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I had forgotten about the shades in the Ramps mansion, there is so much in GP to pick apart, some things get overlooked. That would be his first shade summoning, Sue was his first zombie.
Kemmler would have been proud. Necromancer is both a proclivity and a vocation, the incompetent get their faces eaten off fairly quickly by a zombie they raised, and can’t control or get charged with necrophilia when they can’t raise the dead and have a freshly dug up body in their basement they can’t explain, and no matter how much you explain the cops can’t parse the difference between Necrophiliac and Necromancer,
Given this natural ability plus Soulfire (which he had for neither event) it can only be a matter of time before Harry does a successful resurrection of his own Einenjharen. My moneys on Mister, for those who think he is just a cat. Plus he has the Shroud. You know he is going to resurrect some body.
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But Sue wasn't Harry's first act of necromancy; he had another stand-out instance: defeating Bianca, by summoning a vast number of shades. Notwithstanding the "weakened barriers" making that easier, we have to note that Harry:
That isn't the definition of necromancy though, he called up ghosts, true, but did he reanimate their corpses, making them zombies? No.. Nor did he use them to foretell the future.
noun. a person who uses witchcraft or sorcery, especially to reanimate dead people or to foretell the future by communicating with them: In the story, the boy is killed by a serial killer and then revived as a zombie by a necromancer.
Nor was he brought up on charges before the Council for necromancy at the end of Grave Peril.. And since those shades were human unlike Sue he would have been brought up for breaking one of the Seven Laws of Magic.. So patently just calling up shades isn't considered necromancy. Or more to the point like he did in Changes, Harry reversed the vamp attack on him, it was perhaps the first indication the the Red Court in their lust for power or revenge don't really think things through..
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Actually necromancy isn’t just raising zombies, it includes raising and manipulating shades.
When Donald Morgan went to harass Harry, he would always make a side trip to harass Mort because Ectomancy was considered too close to Necromancy. The big difference, the former works with the dead consensually, the latter against their free will. Mort was quite right to distressed by what Harry did with the Lecters, and that was out of Harry’s ignorance. That’s the third instance of Harry’ necromancy, and third time is the charm.
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Actually necromancy isn’t just raising zombies, it includes raising and manipulating shades.
When Donald Morgan went to harass Harry, he would always make a side trip to harass Mort because Ectomancy was considered too close to Necromancy. The big difference, the former works with the dead consensually, the latter against their free will. Mort was quite right to distressed by what Harry did with the Lecters, and that was out of Harry’s ignorance. That’s the third instance of Harry’ necromancy, and third time is the charm.
Yet they never nailed Mort did they?
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For a long time Mort let his talent dwindle, and that was exactly what the White Council wanted. A powerful probably wizard level practitioner with an unfortunate talent for a field they despised. They didn’t want him inside and barely tolerated him outside unless he dwindled and cheapened himself.
After Dead Beat Harry was the local Warden, and far more of a Necromancer than Mort, so Mort learnt to stand up for himself and was given the space for his talent to flourish. In Ghost Story we see the final form of Mort as in Skin Game we see the final form of Butters. Mort stood up to in will and power Corpsetaker, in a way which would make most White Council members crap themselves. He has proven himself better than the White Council thto the two people who matter, Harry and himself. He has the respect of himself AND the local monster.
Professionally Harry respects Mort these days.
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Yet they never nailed Mort did they?
I think as long as Mort TALKED, rather than controlled, he was OK. They watched him just in case. Sue was OK as she was not human. Like Harry can toast a vampire, but not a human.
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I think as long as Mort TALKED, rather than controlled, he was OK. They watched him just in case. Sue was OK as she was not human. Like Harry can toast a vampire, but not a human.
Indeed, same is true of Harry, and Bianca opened the door, in desperation he called to her victims
as she was trying to kill him. He asked them to remember, they did and did the rest.
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Remember, yes we saw exactly how memories are used by ghosts.
As weapons.
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Remember, yes we saw exactly how memories are used by ghosts.
As weapons.
In the case of Bianca it was the memory of being murdered by her that got her killed. If there wasn't any connection like that, would they have killed her or orders? They had a choice, what they wanted was vengeance.