ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: K.L.O.E. on December 30, 2021, 09:37:19 PM
-
I was thinking about this the other day and I'm almost certain we'll see a Monkey King hair clone or something in the pro wrestling book. Thoughts?
-
Not really looking forward to that book, not into wrestling, so it’s going to need to relegate the wrestling to a sub-plot.
If a god really wanted to obtain worship they would be playing football (soccer), as it is the most popular sport in the world, and let’s face it Pele changed gender and moved from Hawaii to Brazil to do this.
-
I don't know about that...while individual soccer/football players are famous, it is, overall, about which team is the best. Pro wrestling, on the other hand...
It's all about the personalities, the characters, the spectacle, and especially the heat the wrestlers generate in the crowd. It's all about the individual.
While I could see some gods being more interested in pure competition, I could see a lot of the more arrogant ones being attracted to the individual focus of pro wrestling.
-
What don't you like about wrestling? (If you don't mind me asking)
I get why they'd be wrestlers over anything else:
- the fandom is specific to you, not a team
- pre-amalgamation you could tour the territories, Europe, and Japan forever and people wouldn't notice the pesky not aging bit
- it's a combat "sport" that uses holds that existed since Greece
- super strength is less noticeable in wrestling as anything can be explained away as a "work"
-
Not always the team, sometimes you have a player who stands head and shoulders above the team, a Pele, a Maradonna, a Best, a Ronaldo, a Messi, and they are truly lionised by the world as something truly special.
There is no scripting, no stunts, everything they do is real if not hyper real, bestriding the world as the best and it’s champions, they don’t merely have a fan base, they are capable of bringing a country together behind them, and having the rest of the world agog with their genius applauding their own teams defeat.
-
Not really looking forward to that book, not into wrestling, so it’s going to need to relegate the wrestling to a sub-plot.
If a god really wanted to obtain worship they would be playing football (soccer), as it is the most popular sport in the world, and let’s face it Pele changed gender and moved from Hawaii to Brazil to do this.
Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.
Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.
-
any profession where unearned celebrity would do.
-
Not always the team, sometimes you have a player who stands head and shoulders above the team, a Pele, a Maradonna, a Best, a Ronaldo, a Messi, and they are truly lionised by the world as something truly special.
There is no scripting, no stunts, everything they do is real if not hyper real, bestriding the world as the best and it’s champions, they don’t merely have a fan base, they are capable of bringing a country together behind them, and having the rest of the world agog with their genius applauding their own teams defeat.
Wrestling is unique in the way it uses long term story telling to create a mythology around a character or even just a move over time. Plus the careers can be way longer. Just look at Sting who's been wrestling since the late 70s. While the singular talent of a Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona, Pele, LeBron, Jordan, Gretzky, Tendulkar, Hamilton, Bolt, or Ali come along they are lionized but its just a direct cheering for the act and the game or the race. When you have godlike power there's no competition in a race. When wrestling a god could live out the same story over and over again and receive godlike devotion from a fanbase. It's the perfect cover.
Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.
Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.
I could totally see a few being reality TV stars or Actors or something as well. We already got the White Court running parts of the porn industry. There's probably a bunch of various immortals in soap operas as well.
-
I hope it's better then American Gods. Gaiman is a better writer and he's already traveled that road, somewhat poorly in my opinion.
-
Agreed. Can't stand wrestling.
Gods who need worship would become celebrities, athletes, actors, singers. I could see some of the Greeks becoming reality tv stars- though I dislike reality tv more then wrestling, it fits with their narcissisms. Particularly given Naricssis is Greek himself.
I'm also, not a fan of wrestling. However, I could totally get behind the idea of minor ancient deities; and almost but not quite forgotten major ones, reappearing as reality TV stars, but also as so-called Influencers; whether on Instagram, YouTube or any social media platform. Getting "Likes" seems to me to be a perfect fit for an old deity craving some form of worship.
However, I can't see a major deity like an Athena or Zeus going the above routes. Pride was also a weakness of some of these deities, so I think they would want to do something that would give them the appearance of dignity or sagacity. With that idea in mind, perhaps some old deities could be seen on Bloomberg News making predictions about the future of the economy or market, or perhaps as a so-called political, legal or military expert who makes regular appearances on any of the major news networks.
-
While I can see wrestling for some of the battle deities, I don't understand why Vadderung doesn't have more competitors or parallels.
Shouldn't Hephaestus have world renowned engineering firm and Aphrodite a huge modeling agency/cosmetics empire? Is Thoth part of the Librarians?
I hope once we get to this book that we'll learn details about exactly how much power the gods had to give up to remain active in the world. I also expect to see several different aspects of the Never Never. Seems like the perfect time for realm hopping.
-
I can see that the idea seemed fun to Jim when he first thought of it, but I think perhaps it's a little underdeveloped.
As Morris points out, it's already been done a bit with American Gods (although we'll agree to disagree on the quality of the work).
I think a better way to expand it (as others have mentioned) would be to see gods in various personas/roles they have taken up. So not just professional wrestlers (i.e. WWE or whatever) but also as modern popstars, business icons, pro-atheletes, models, movie stars, and perhaps even more modern takes like influencers and podcast hosts etc. The amount of people who watch Tik Toks versus how many people would watch wrestling...let's just say if you wanted worship the former would be the place to go.
It would be easier to avoid this minefield though if there was no gimmick, if it was simply a book about gods and had a more elemental, esoteric, weird feel. I thought he handled Hades and Ethniu and even Odin quite well. It would be a shame to parody other gods and mythologies. While I think there is room for such things, and some gods might even suit the parody (e.g. Hercules) for some it would be a let down (Thor) or just inappropriate (Aphrodite). Just my take.
Supernatural sometimes went the gimmicky option and often it felt cheesy and a bit empty. Yes, sometimes it worked too but far often less so. I am not saying I want the series to be all grit and darkness either. A big part of the appeal of the series is the humour.
I believe Jim enjoyed some of Rick Riordan's stuff, particularly the Percy Jackson series, and he definitely payed some homage to it with Battle Ground. So I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that. There's been a few interesting takes over the years; Malazan, Craft Sequence, Lucifer (the comics that were a spin-off of the Sandman, and not the travesty that was the TV show - which I believe some found enjoyable but I found it quite difficult as it was such an awful departure). Roger Zelazny dealt with it several times in differing ways - The Chronicles of Amber, Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness. Each a fascinating take and quite different. Everworld by K.A. Applegate was closer to Percy Jackson but darker and more adult, but also an interesting take. Even the Almighty Johnsons TV show (a New Zealand take on Norse Gods) was quite interesting and often funny, although occasionally a bit lacklustre and a bit dated now.
This poem - The Egg http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html (http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html) is quite thought provoking. Oddly enough, I also thought it had some parallels with the Dresden Files but that could be just me seeing things. Siddhartha by Herman Hesse was similar (and I suspect inspired Zelazny's Lord of Light).
Jim will of course do his own take, but considering the many takes that have come before, and the world he has created and the talent he has, I very much hope he will take this opportunity to do something really fantastic. And he really needs to get more into the "Why" that the gods have backed off. A vague "humanity needs to grow up" isn't all that interesting, to me. I understand he doesn't wish to offend but perhaps some background to a major event would be good. Relating it to Outsiders probably would make the most sense.
-
My theory is that the White God will not permit an entity above a certain power level to dwell within the mortal world as it is too dangerous to reality. Mab is at the limit of the threshold by design. Odin would be too powerful but cut a deal or deals with the White God limiting his power and then taking up the Kringle Mantle to become immortal.Mr Ferro can only exist in his human form.
The really big powers like Hades or the Mothers can exist only in the Never Never without breaking the compact of the White God. The Last Titan probably hid in the NeverNever until her invasion.
If this is correct how can Hades peers interact with the mortal world at their presumed power level, unless they too like Odin have accepted a reduced power level? Their fix is not to take part in major human affairs but at the same time to garner worship to maintain themselves at even their reduced power level.
Have a couple of God’s be pro -wrestlers, but have it as only a wider examination of popular culture e.g. Stephen King is actually the god Phobos, and his “son” Joe Hill is just another in the long line of avatars of Phobos,( all of them horror writers) looking so much alike and that. Have Harry speculate if any of his favourite authors/film makers/comics writers were in fact god’s. If Jim could get Stephen and Joe to go along with the joke and let him use their names, that would be a lovely meta moment.
Jim has said Thor plays college football, constantly moving around and changing his appearance, so it isn’t all pro -wrestling.
-
Except of course, for most of human history those very entities have been around. What changed, and when did it happen, and why?
Time is only linear to mortals anyway, so arguably these gods and such beings are still a threat to reality. So was the universe just more able to take it before, or were their others (like Time Lords in Doctor Who) who had to go around fixing it? Or has reality changed on a fundamental level that it means gods can no longer operate in any point in history without potentially harming reality? Did reality get weaker?
You suspect Ethniu hid in the Nevernever prior to the invasion of Chicago. But then, why was she allowed to come through at all? Why didn't reality break down locally the moment she showed up in force? My guess is that it's less about a compact with the White God, and more about how he told them to leave, and the breaking of that rule forces the wheel of fate to run them over. It's not so much a direct response with a bolt from Heaven, but their choices force reality to crush them. Ethniu didn't realise just by entering she was playing a rigged game of multi-dimensional chess (or if she did, she was wildly optimistic about her chances) against the Creator.
I do like your idea about pop-culture gods. I think there is definitely something there. It would be fun to get some other authors involved like his friends Sanderson and Rothfuss etc.
Indeed, I do remember the Thor quote - I suspect he is leaving himself options there. Although I must admit, I wonder why the Storm God, known for slaying Jotuns, would bother playing football. Would that really be exciting to him? Unless he is barely more than mortal himself. Which then leads me back to the whole "it would be a waste of such a fun and exciting god" thing. But yes, clearly not all gods will be pro-wrestlers.
-
Obviously Elon Musk is one of them. He has his own cult and everything. But I digress.
I didn't see any indication that the Titan was in anyway special. Certainly not in any reality bending way. I suspect the Mothers stay where they are because if they don't they become blind to what is happening in other timelines.
-
It’s use of their intrinsic power in most cases Ethnui would have hidden in the Never Never, crossing over itself not enough to damage reality, but her using the Eye did.
Note that Sanya was already in Chicago before Ethnui, the White God had four active agents in the two knights, Odin and a wizard both granted Soulfire, and the Wizard had an entire armoury of White God Nukes at his disposal. Ethnui’s incursion was known and dealt with by the White God. Even Marcone/Namshiel’s presence may have been counted upon he certainly ended up working for the White God’s purpose
The problem trying to map godhood onto real life figures is that they may object, so Jim is unlikely to use real life people, but there are plenty of flash in the pan celebrity types such as a winner of American Idol from a few years ago, that guy who made that hilarious internet meme that was all the rage last year, that college football player of promise who never made it in the pro leagues. They just keep coming back under a new identity, doing the same things. No one can quite remember them properly but everybody knows they were big at one time, has-beens and neverwas’
Becoming too big a celebrity might mean attracting the White God’s attention, like Ethnui did. You get your worship for a time under one guise and then drop into obscurity or fake your death or an injury and move onto the next scheme. That sounds exactly like what Thor is doing.
-
Obviously Elon Musk is one of them. He has his own cult and everything. But I digress.
I didn't see any indication that the Titan was in anyway special. Certainly not in any reality bending way. I suspect the Mothers stay where they are because if they don't they become blind to what is happening in other timelines.
If I had to guess, he would be Zeus. Obsessed with electricity and the heavens, likes to be the most powerful, very dramatic, always chasing different women etc.
Perhaps have another look at Ethniu's entrance scene in Peace Talks, specifically when she enters the room.
There was, around her, a humming throb of energy unlike anything I had ever sensed before, a power so ancient and terrible that the world had forgotten its like. That power demanded my respect, my obedience, my adoration, my abject terror, and suddenly I knew what was happening.
I was standing in the presence of a goddess.
I could barely breathe.
I couldn’t have moved if I’d wanted to.
A moan went through the room, and I realized with a bit of alarm that one of the voices moaning was mine.
Some part of me noted that Vadderung and Ferrovax had both come to their feet, fists clenched—and they were not looking at each other any longer. Both stared hard at the woman.
The goddess swept her single-eyed gaze around the room, tracking from face to face. She gave the Winter Lady a look of pure contempt and delivered exactly the same expression to the rest of the gathered Accorded nations.
Her voice …
Oh God.
Her voice was sex and chocolate and hot soup and a bath on a cold, rainy night. It was a voice that promised things, that you could find yourself listening to with absolute intensity. It filled the room as if she’d been using a PA system, even though she wasn’t.
A few things there. Harry has been in the presence of very powerful beings, including Ferrovax and the Mothers and Uriel before. He describes Ethniu's presence as unlike anything he had felt before. Now let's assume that Uriel filters the majority of his power so that a mortal like Dresden is protected. And for the Mothers, let's say they were both in Faerie when Harry met them and there was a lot going on and perhaps Harry shielded his senses a bit knowing what he was about to go near.
Ferrovax clearly uses an avatar or aspect so as to not cause too much damage, he has said so himself and others have confirmed this both in the books and Jim in interviews. But Dresden did feel a fraction of Ferro's power, at least once. He has felt Vadderung's, the Erlking's, Titania's and Mab's. The latter two when viewed with the Sight nearly drove him mad, and while that was in an in-between Never never place it still was partially in the mortal plane too (probably part of why things can change in those kind of battlefields as opposed to Faerie itself).
Mab's voice for several books (particularly Small Favor) is so powerful it hurts Dresden to even hear it and causes his ears and eyes to bleed. Her voice is described as being an extension of her power.
Now look at Ethniu, so strong in power that mortals and immortals alike have trouble dealing with her mere presence. Power that doesn't come to Earth regularly, to the point that most had forgotten it. Her voice is so strong instead of causing pain and death, it a causes Harry's will to have trouble functioning properly.
I should point out that Ethniu claims in this very scene to have been huddling in the seas, so perhaps not the Never Never. But water is probably as good a cover as any.
The Mother's don't stay where they are because of limiting their Sight, not in my estimation. It doesn't limit Uriel, and they are peers. My guess is it's about limiting potential damage to an area (read: local reality). I got the impression Mother Winter can't move without her "walking stick". There might have been more reasons than gaining a powerful tool when the White Council "acquired" the Blackstaff. Perhaps it's better if Mother Winter stays in her cottage, for all of us. That being said, the Paranet Papers imply she was/is Baba Yaga (and so does Jim in a Q&A) which suggests she has moved around before.
It’s use of their intrinsic power in most cases Ethnui would have hidden in the Never Never, crossing over itself not enough to damage reality, but her using the Eye did.
Note that Sanya was already in Chicago before Ethnui, the White God had four active agents in the two knights, Odin and a wizard both granted Soulfire, and the Wizard had an entire armoury of White God Nukes at his disposal. Ethnui’s incursion was known and dealt with by the White God. Even Marcone/Namshiel’s presence may have been counted upon he certainly ended up working for the White God’s purpose
The problem trying to map godhood onto real life figures is that they may object, so Jim is unlikely to use real life people, but there are plenty of flash in the pan celebrity types such as a winner of American Idol from a few years ago, that guy who made that hilarious internet meme that was all the rage last year, that college football player of promise who never made it in the pro leagues. They just keep coming back under a new identity, doing the same things. No one can quite remember them properly but everybody knows they were big at one time, has-beens and neverwas’
Becoming too big a celebrity might mean attracting the White God’s attention, like Ethnui did. You get your worship for a time under one guise and then drop into obscurity or fake your death or an injury and move onto the next scheme. That sounds exactly like what Thor is doing.
To be honest, crossing over for ANY being so far hasn't damaged reality. Uriel walks around fine. He Who Walks Behind is considered a peer, and had no trouble. It isn't like Ferrovax crushes everything around him, and he doesn't rank anywhere near as high as the other two. So it isn't so much a matter of being in the mortal plane so much as a matter of how much energy they are unleashing.
Which as you point out, the use of the Eye of Balor was enough energy to threaten a collapse of local reality. But these beings, by their mere presence, warp reality to the point it starts to conform to their design. Even Mab and Titania do, to a lesser extent. Hell, even Harry does a bit if you think about it and look at things.
Which is the point. It's clear that it's about will power. Jim even said long ago, that if a being had enough magic and enough will they could rewrite reality to their design.
I think it is clear Heaven has a hand in things, but then again they have a hand in everything. They constantly claim non-interference but the opposite is clearly true. It's a matter of nuance, of degree. Heaven might not have an Angel go and burn a city down or engage in kickboxing with a forgotten god, but it's clear they do act through their Knights and other champions (e.g. Harry). Likely this is to preserve reality, because as hinted at by Ferrovax (and by Vadderung) the danger of engaging in flat-out combat with multiple heavyweight magical beings is beyond what reality can take. And Vadderung seems to hint that this is part of the reason he is more mortal than he used to be, so he can still engage. He also hints that the ultimate danger isn't so much the collapse of reality, but the ever-present danger of Outsiders. Hell, the Sidhe Courts use mortal Knights to deal with mortal affairs so they can still influence things. And yes, there are restrictions on the Courts from interfering with mortals who are not involved with them first, but all the rules seem to be about protecting reality.
Marcone and Namshiel likely represented other teams than Heaven (even if they did end up aiding Heaven anyway). Namshiel seems to be playing off multiple teams as well.
I agree about the problem of using real people, and I would be surprised if he used any at all. Jim is very respectful and doesn't take those sort of risks. I agree, a sort of vague take probably would work best. Allusions and allegories (e.g. "a wealthy tech mogul" or "a young teen famous for internet videos" or "the world's biggest popstar"). It doesn't have to go 1-for-1 in our world either. It's a fictional universe after all.
-
I hadn't considered how blatant Heaven and Hell were in interfering during the Battle of Chicago. I'm sure part of what allowed Ethniu to fully manifest was the Titanic Bronze armour.
I think we've missed in this discussion is the difference between a parasocial fandom relationship and worship or in other words the relationship between a god and their worshippers. To paraphrase Ian Cameron Esselmont in Orb Sceptre Throne "Ascendancy (a lesser form of Godhood in the Malazan world) is a constant battle between what your worshippers want and what you want". A parasocial relationship is a one way thing, worship isn't. As discussed the largest religious groups in Chicago are Monotheistic incarnations of the White God, worshippers were under threat so the White God intervened in a pretty dramatic fashion.
There are also limits to standard celebrity, it's incredibly difficult to control the narrative around yourself in the modern celebrity ecosystem and what are gods if not narratives given power and flesh? Someone mentioned the college athlete who doesn't win the big one and if a god were to keep adopting that guise they would become the god of close but no cigar.
Which brings me back to the beautiful art of pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is stunts tied together by a story and you can reuse the same narratives over and over again almost like telling a myth. For a god who is a pro wrestler (and I'm betting Thor will have crossed over to pro wrestling like so many football players before him) you can use your control of the narrative to maintain your domain and when you are prayed too by your devotees you can offer something back. Imagine for a second you're the underdog in a competition, you know you should lose but refuse to. Now praying to Heath Slater (or whatever memetic loser you want to pick) isn't going to help much, while praying to a god inspired by Rey Mysterio or Bryan Danielson may get you somewhere.
As for Elon if he is a god I'd speculate he's Mammon or someone like that. He didn't invent squat and really pursues some counterintuitive goals in the name of greed.
-
I agree, I do think the Titanic Bronze armour was more than just protection. I think it was a focus of her power. But the disadvantage is that it made her less agile too, she couldn't be in multiple places at once and therefore escape her doom. There's a hint when the light of the Angel in Butter's sword makes her armour look slow and cumbersome, yet physically speaking Ethniu isn't at all slow or awkward. So my guess is that it implies a metaphysical slowness.
Great points about the differences between celebrity worship and religious worship.
And I hadn't considered that angle about pro wrestling. It's a good point. Stories are what gods thrive on, after all. But that isn't the only medium either, a bit more diversity might be interesting, at least to me. But it's a good point to bring up.
I was only really joking about Elon. Not that I would want to meet Zeus any more than Mammon. Both are pretty dangerous to mortals.
-
Elon Musk if anything is the Golden Calf, a false god, merely a graven image.
The story telling of pro wrestling is exactly the same as any reality tv show except more hitting each other with chairs. Or perhaps less?. God’s thrive on belief, not stories, stories are used to engender belief. A god is merely an immortal with a good writing team behind them. Belief is probably manna from the point of view of a god whether it is celebrity or religious worship, I suspect many a pantheon got its start by being the reality shows of their era. Forget the Kardashians, they have nothing on the Olympians. This isn’t like Bob having trouble with faith based power, these beings are considerably more powerful if not near omnipotent and omnipresent and therefore likely to be the ultimate omnivores in relation to belief.
-
Elon Musk if anything is the Golden Calf, a false god, merely a graven image.
The story telling of pro wrestling is exactly the same as any reality tv show except more hitting each other with chairs. Or perhaps less?. God’s thrive on belief, not stories, stories are used to engender belief. A god is merely an immortal with a good writing team behind them. Belief is probably manna from the point of view of a god whether it is celebrity or religious worship, I suspect many a pantheon got its start by being the reality shows of their era. Forget the Kardashians, they have nothing on the Olympians. This isn’t like Bob having trouble with faith based power, these beings are considerably more powerful if not near omnipotent and omnipresent and therefore likely to be the ultimate omnivores in relation to belief.
Well yes and no. We know plenty of Gods existed prior to Creation, so clearly had power before people were even a thing. So not so sure belief did affect them, until the mortal came along and started changing the rules. Hell, I expect that was part of the fun. Boring old stasis, can't change who you are as an immortal, along comes mortals with their beliefs and choices and suddenly you can. Very tempting for an immortal I am sure. But also, obvious downsides too.
Hard to know how close to omnipotent and omnipresent the gods were/are. Zeus and Quetzalcoatl and the Mothers are all around Uriel level, and he seems to be nigh-omnipotent and exists in every universe at all times. But all of them? I am not so sure.
-
Nope, Uriel exists simultaneously across all universes, the same being, rather than each universes iteration or variant according to WOJ. We have not been told this of the Mothers or Zeus, which suggests Uriel is the more powerful individual, he just doesn’t manifest all of his power in one universe, if he did that might cause problems for reality, even though he can do virtually nothing in all of those universes for the degree of power that he manifests.
The Mothers are a Mantle so do not predate linear time like a Uriel. The beings wearing the Mantle are another matter, it is likely certain limits were placed on each of the Mantles. The Lady just powerful enough to be an immortal, the Queen just powerful enough to engage with the mortal world without damaging it too badly, by just existing, the Mothers just powerful enough to gain a full Intellectus of that universe.
I think it is safe to presume Uriel has a multiversal Intellectus.
Odin a Skyfather like Zeus took a power down including loss of his immortality to continue be a player in the mortal world, he took up the Kringle Mantle to become immortal again. Hades (on par with Zeus) remains exclusively in the NeverNever. Operating in the mortal world may be damaging to the mortal world and prohibited by the White God, he would have to accept a power down to do so.
-
Well yes and no. We know plenty of Gods existed prior to Creation, so clearly had power before people were even a thing. So not so sure belief did affect them, until the mortal came along and started changing the rules. Hell, I expect that was part of the fun. Boring old stasis, can't change who you are as an immortal, along comes mortals with their beliefs and choices and suddenly you can. Very tempting for an immortal I am sure. But also, obvious downsides too.
Hard to know how close to omnipotent and omnipresent the gods were/are. Zeus and Quetzalcoatl and the Mothers are all around Uriel level, and he seems to be nigh-omnipotent and exists in every universe at all times. But all of them? I am not so sure.
The whole immortality bit is also part of why I think there would be more gods as wrestlers than reality stars. Both are scripted but grappling has existed since before we came down from the tress. Reality shows are a bit of a new fangled thing and I don't see many gods changing that fast (but I could be very wrong)
-
Nope, Uriel exists simultaneously across all universes, the same being, rather than each universes iteration or variant according to WOJ. We have not been told this of the Mothers or Zeus, which suggests Uriel is the more powerful individual, he just doesn’t manifest all of his power in one universe, if he did that might cause problems for reality, even though he can do virtually nothing in all of those universes for the degree of power that he manifests.
The Mothers are a Mantle so do not predate linear time like a Uriel. The beings wearing the Mantle are another matter, it is likely certain limits were placed on each of the Mantles. The Lady just powerful enough to be an immortal, the Queen just powerful enough to engage with the mortal world without damaging it too badly, by just existing, the Mothers just powerful enough to gain a full Intellectus of that universe.
I think it is safe to presume Uriel has a multiversal Intellectus.
Odin a Skyfather like Zeus took a power down including loss of his immortality to continue be a player in the mortal world, he took up the Kringle Mantle to become immortal again. Hades (on par with Zeus) remains exclusively in the NeverNever. Operating in the mortal world may be damaging to the mortal world and prohibited by the White God, he would have to accept a power down to do so.
Actually, we have - it's in either the Dreden Files Podcast Ep 77 Return of the Jim or 20 Years of Dresden with Priscilla video, I will look up the link - but Jim confirms Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, and others are Uriel and Mothers level.
The Mothers are a mantle, but of a being (or several) that may predate the universe. Considering the power levels involved, and that the Mothers are Uriel-level, I think it's not unreasonable to assume the being (or beings) they come from predate the universe.
Odin did step down, and the rest stepped away, but it was at a point in human history (that I am willing to bet was Hastings or perhaps the Crucifixion). Operating wasn't always prohibited, it only happened relatively recently for reasons unknown.
The whole immortality bit is also part of why I think there would be more gods as wrestlers than reality stars. Both are scripted but grappling has existed since before we came down from the tress. Reality shows are a bit of a new fangled thing and I don't see many gods changing that fast (but I could be very wrong)
But Pro-wrestling is only relatively recent, so what did they do before? Many questions to be answered.
-
Same width different depth, one set of Mothers per universe, one Uriel per Multiverse, but in each individual universe they manifest the same degree of power. Uriel is as powerful as the Mothers in Dresden Prime Universe, but they are slightly different mothers (they never met Harry) in the Mirrorverse. Uriel has the same power in both universes but he is the same being not a variant like the Mothers.
Marvel would call Uriel a Nexus being. The Mother aren’t. There are universes where they never existed, have both been replaced, neither replaced etc. Same with Zeus etc.
-
I doubt the focus on the book will be on wrestling. Wrestling will be in the background, like adult film-making was in a prior book, but the story will be separate.
-
Same width different depth, one set of Mothers per universe, one Uriel per Multiverse, but in each individual universe they manifest the same degree of power. Uriel is as powerful as the Mothers in Dresden Prime Universe, but they are slightly different mothers (they never met Harry) in the Mirrorverse. Uriel has the same power in both universes but he is the same being not a variant like the Mothers.
Marvel would call Uriel a Nexus being. The Mother aren’t. There are universes where they never existed, have both been replaced, neither replaced etc. Same with Zeus etc.
https://youtu.be/kGgyJNMA4q8?t=731 (https://youtu.be/kGgyJNMA4q8?t=731) So this is the link to the Dresden Files Podcast episode, it should be time stamped but otherwise go to 12:10.
This was only said a year ago, so I can understand the information being missed. But this is WOJ now. It's up to you whether you treat it at the same level as the books, I know many people have different levels of acceptance of it.
One set of Mother's and Zeus and all the rest, per multiverse. Unless there is some information to the contrary that I have missed, I think Jim is being quite clear that there is only one of these type of beings in the multiverse spread throughout all the universes.
Odin might be a different category, depending on how exactly he distilled himself to his current form. Ethniu potentially only has one version though, this is even hinted at with her fight with Titania, Odin and the Erlking. Dresden hypothesises he is seeing multiple realities, parallel ones come together - and I suspect he is right.
Another hint the Mother's are at the multiverse level like Uriel is that they see things in terms of multiple timelines - the scene in Cold Days where Harry's choice to so many new possible futures. It's probably why their Intellectus is so strong, but also why they don't get involved much at the local level.
I doubt the focus on the book will be on wrestling. Wrestling will be in the background, like adult film-making was in a prior book, but the story will be separate.
I would say the focus will be about the same degree that being a ghost and learning about that part of the Never never i.e. the astral plane or whatever was to Ghost Story's plot. It's reasonably standard for Jim in that way. It will color most of everything going on, but the problem will be a murder or whatever.
-
I saw the podcast at the time it was released, and drew a different conclusion, with other WOJ. It doesn’t without further elaboration make the point you say is definitive “closer to” is not the same as “same as”, and I suspect it is deliberately vague to avoid spoiling Mirror Mirror plot points which will describe the Multiverse model Jim is using.
I think he is using a model with a single point of origin, pre Big Bang before linear time started when the White God, Archangels, Titans and God’s existed. The Big Bang imposed linear time and created the first unit of space time, a universe. Because linear time existed this led the universe to expand by branching, creating new time-lines and new universes.
The Mothers being a construct pegged to linear time cannot exist in every universe, because there would be branched timelines which branched before the Mantles were constructed and in some of those tome-lines the Mantles would never have been constructed or constituted differently, with different components.
Zeus like the big gods existed before linear time would have existed as every time-line branched, and therefore existed on each of those time-lines BUT there would be time-lines where Zeus failed to overthrow Chronos and was destroyed and further time-lines derived from that time-line where Zeus was destroyed, as the Multiverse expanded.
As a consequence there are likely whole groups of universes on related branches where the Mothers and Zeus simply do not exist, they either never existed or have ceased to exist before that universe branched last. The White God on the other hand is preeminent because they are the one being that has always existed without any interruption and he exists in every branched timeline of the Multiverse, along with his first creation, the Archangels. As soon as linear time existed this led to the Multiverse and imposed a degree of control over other originally non-linear beings contempories of the White God and the Archangels, but now not as powerful as them viewed at the level of the Multiverse, but viewed at the level of a universe they are
The Outsiders on the other hand were not part of the original creation of the Multiverse and as such never existed on any branched time-line unless let in. If they succeed in any time-line the White God ceases to be preeminent like with Zeus, and the whole Multiverse is in peril. I suspect rather than allow a time-line to fall the White God erases it maintaining his pre-eminence, but this also means erasing the time-lines born of it. Therefore if Mirror Mirror Harry’s time-line is erased, Harry Prime’s time-line would survive as both were born out of the same event in Grave Peril, but if Harry loses all the universes born from Harry Primes Universe will also be erased. If the Outsiders win however they can attack linear time making every universe vulnerable unravelling the Multiverse.
The battle against the Outsiders is therefore a constant pruning of time-lines eliminating groups of universes, the constant fear is that someone like Harry would allow the Outsiders to win just the once. A timeline must have become vulnerable at some point to the Outsiders and it is this time-line and it’s branches which are subject to attacks and the Starborn/Destroyer are birthed on.
Listen said that there were not many Starborn left running around, and I take this as not only a reference to the Starborn of Harry Primes Universe, but all their variants in other universes as quite a few of these other universes may have already been sterilised by the White God. It may be if Harry wins the Multiverse is safe for another 600 odd years (depending on Harry’s age) and the vulnerable Multiverse can keep expanding. If he loses he risks destroying the entire Multiverse not just the vulnerable time-lines. For all we know Harry Prime may be the only Starborn left on the vulnerable timelines with a chance of defeating the Outsiders and locking them out for the rest of the cycle.
-
that podcast didn't *QUITE* put the Mothers at Uriel's level - just that they are closer to him than they are to Mab/Titania. He said closer to. Or allows for a big power band. Like "The best hockey players are in the NHL" but Uriel is Connor Mc David - he's generally acknowledged best-of-the-best. (OK, relax, KHL fans, there is overlap between the two leagues, just being simple)
How about a more FUN reason for the wrestlers? They are bored, and want to feed their egos. TWG lets them come thru, but at only a certain percentage of their power. But if they get more fans, they gain power in the Never-never. So they want human devotees. They get the idea of joining the WWE for over-the-top stunts and acting. Flash, showmanship, and competition. Some gain power up to the limit, so they "retire" their persona, and there is no more regular Hulkamania, and Thor goes to play football. Maybe runs into Irwin Pounder? Maybe they have been doing this for decades - in the 60s, as rock stars. 40s and 50s, movie stars. Maybe in the 20s, Hercules and his huge club were in The Bronx swinging a notably huge bat as Babe Ruth? Drinking too many beers, eating too much, engaging with women of low repute... Ruth supposedly did them all - so did the Greek gods....
Gods and angels do not seem to be averse to entertainment either - Uriel is a Star Wars fan, or at least the music and simpler black and white good and evil. Something like wrestling faces and heels?
-
that podcast didn't *QUITE* put the Mothers at Uriel's level - just that they are closer to him than they are to Mab/Titania. He said closer to. Or allows for a big power band. Like "The best hockey players are in the NHL" but Uriel is Connor Mc David - he's generally acknowledged best-of-the-best. (OK, relax, KHL fans, there is overlap between the two leagues, just being simple)
How about a more FUN reason for the wrestlers? They are bored, and want to feed their egos. TWG lets them come thru, but at only a certain percentage of their power. But if they get more fans, they gain power in the Never-never. So they want human devotees. They get the idea of joining the WWE for over-the-top stunts and acting. Flash, showmanship, and competition. Some gain power up to the limit, so they "retire" their persona, and there is no more regular Hulkamania, and Thor goes to play football. Maybe runs into Irwin Pounder? Maybe they have been doing this for decades - in the 60s, as rock stars. 40s and 50s, movie stars. Maybe in the 20s, Hercules and his huge club were in The Bronx swinging a notably huge bat as Babe Ruth? Drinking too many beers, eating too much, engaging with women of low repute... Ruth supposedly did them all - so did the Greek gods....
Gods and angels do not seem to be averse to entertainment either - Uriel is a Star Wars fan, or at least the music and simpler black and white good and evil. Something like wrestling faces and heels?
So I think both you and CT are forgetting the context in which the reply Jim gave was in. Jim had just been asked about whether Uriel existed in multiple realities or whether there were multiple Uriels running around. He at first seemed confused, but then answered and confirmed there is only one Uriel and he is everywhere as opposed to beings like Mab which there are alternate versions in each universe. Then he got asked about how the Mother's compare to him, right afterward, and said they are much closer to Uriel along with Zeus and the Native American gods and Hindu gods.
So it's not just him placing them together as peers, but he is also answering in context to whether the Mothers compare to a multiverse level being.
Of course they are not exactly as strong as Uriel, Uriel is one of the Creator's deputies, of which there are only FOUR others (one of which has turned traitor). And as Jim has pointed out before power isn't a straight line thing. So he isn't just talking about their magical muscle, he is talking about what kind of being they are. And he is saying they are multiverse-straddling beings, like Uriel. That's what he is implying.
I don't really see how it's so strange to think that the only multiverse-spanning beings are the Archangels? Because all the Angels do, and not all of them are at that top level bandwidth.
Basically, any being that predates Creation i.e. the various gods and demons of Creation myths, some of the demons forgotten in the Oblivion War, the Outsiders and the Old Ones, the Angels and Fallen and Archangels are likely to be multiverse-spanning beings (although some may have diminished like Odin or been killed etc).
As for the wrestling reason, that certainly possible. I am sure some are bored. But as I said earlier, wrestling is relatively new. So what were they doing before that? But it's an interesting theory you have there.
I always got the impression that Uriel liked Star Wars because so many people like it, or that was what Dresden was hinting at in that conversation. Uriel is more subject to humanity's collective psyche than even he might notice.
I saw the podcast at the time it was released, and drew a different conclusion, with other WOJ. It doesn’t without further elaboration make the point you say is definitive “closer to” is not the same as “same as”, and I suspect it is deliberately vague to avoid spoiling Mirror Mirror plot points which will describe the Multiverse model Jim is using.
I think he is using a model with a single point of origin, pre Big Bang before linear time started when the White God, Archangels, Titans and God’s existed. The Big Bang imposed linear time and created the first unit of space time, a universe. Because linear time existed this led the universe to expand by branching, creating new time-lines and new universes.
The Mothers being a construct pegged to linear time cannot exist in every universe, because there would be branched timelines which branched before the Mantles were constructed and in some of those tome-lines the Mantles would never have been constructed or constituted differently, with different components.
Zeus like the big gods existed before linear time would have existed as every time-line branched, and therefore existed on each of those time-lines BUT there would be time-lines where Zeus failed to overthrow Chronos and was destroyed and further time-lines derived from that time-line where Zeus was destroyed, as the Multiverse expanded.
As a consequence there are likely whole groups of universes on related branches where the Mothers and Zeus simply do not exist, they either never existed or have ceased to exist before that universe branched last. The White God on the other hand is preeminent because they are the one being that has always existed without any interruption and he exists in every branched timeline of the Multiverse, along with his first creation, the Archangels. As soon as linear time existed this led to the Multiverse and imposed a degree of control over other originally non-linear beings contempories of the White God and the Archangels, but now not as powerful as them viewed at the level of the Multiverse, but viewed at the level of a universe they are
The Outsiders on the other hand were not part of the original creation of the Multiverse and as such never existed on any branched time-line unless let in. If they succeed in any time-line the White God ceases to be preeminent like with Zeus, and the whole Multiverse is in peril. I suspect rather than allow a time-line to fall the White God erases it maintaining his pre-eminence, but this also means erasing the time-lines born of it. Therefore if Mirror Mirror Harry’s time-line is erased, Harry Prime’s time-line would survive as both were born out of the same event in Grave Peril, but if Harry loses all the universes born from Harry Primes Universe will also be erased. If the Outsiders win however they can attack linear time making every universe vulnerable unravelling the Multiverse.
The battle against the Outsiders is therefore a constant pruning of time-lines eliminating groups of universes, the constant fear is that someone like Harry would allow the Outsiders to win just the once. A timeline must have become vulnerable at some point to the Outsiders and it is this time-line and it’s branches which are subject to attacks and the Starborn/Destroyer are birthed on.
Listen said that there were not many Starborn left running around, and I take this as not only a reference to the Starborn of Harry Primes Universe, but all their variants in other universes as quite a few of these other universes may have already been sterilised by the White God. It may be if Harry wins the Multiverse is safe for another 600 odd years (depending on Harry’s age) and the vulnerable Multiverse can keep expanding. If he loses he risks destroying the entire Multiverse not just the vulnerable time-lines. For all we know Harry Prime may be the only Starborn left on the vulnerable timelines with a chance of defeating the Outsiders and locking them out for the rest of the cycle.
I get why you see it the other way. I don't know that we will ever convince each other unless new information comes out, ideally clear and very solid. As I said above to Ed0517, I think the context of the conversation implies what he meant and along with other WOJ about how old Angels are and the level they operate at, and how old the various gods are and why all the Creation myths clash, I would say Jim is separating these beings into the category of multiverse-spanning beings.
What I am curious about is why you think it's so unlikely that any other being than an Archangel spans the multiverse?
The only multiverse model that I have heard Jim refer to is a variant on the old bubble universe idea, but he basically has straight-up said he ripped his multiverse model from the Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. That one is a spectrum that has two poles, absolute order to absolute chaos and all the universes in between are combinations of both. Jim also seems to be going with the Stargate model that each choice rolls off a different universe, although I know not everyone likes the idea of that.
So I get what you're saying about the single point of origin, and I agree that Jim seems to be using that. I am not so sure the universe immediately started branching though, as at that point there were no mortals, and apart from TWG himself, I don't believe anyone else has or can create alternate timelines. So up until mortals came along, there might have only been the one universe for all we know. That being said, I don't think that is exactly right because of what we know about how you can get to any universe through the Never never including the Star Wars one or one of Spider-Man's ones, or Alera for that matter (and presumably his steam-punk world) - and some of these universes would clearly predate humanity. This is where linear time becomes a bit annoying.
The Mother's are the remnants or creation of Hecate, along with likely power given from multiple other pantheons (given other hints from the books and WOJ). The Queens of Faerie are implied to be Hecate in Skin Game, and Jim has said if you read Skin Game he tells readers who the Queens of Faerie really are. This is what I mean about linear time being annoying. Yes, Hecate becoming the Queens of Faerie would have happened in a timeline in the universe BUT considering the being(s) involved, I suspect it was similar to how Merlin constructed Demonreach in several times at once i.e. it was a multiverse-spanning event. An event that changed EVERY timeline all at once. Or to put it another way, there was no timeline where Hecate failed to become the Queens of Faerie because Hecate no longer existed as herself in the multiverse. She changed herself in every universe, in every time, all at once.
The equivalent would be if Uriel died or had Fallen. Then in every universe across the multiverse, Uriel would be a changed (dead or Fallen respectively). He doesn't just die in one timeline and survive in another because he is beyond time, what happens in one place happens can affect him everywhere, and he would be aware of it. What's really interesting is whether when he gave Michael his Grace did all Uriel basically vanish from the multiverse effectively, with only his mortal body existing in Dresden's universe and his power in Michael? Or did he only do it in one universe and all his other avatars were running around in other universes? There are very good arguments for both scenarios. I tend to believe the former happened, which effectively means he believed what was happening it was so important that reality could survive without him being everywhere for a bit. But it would have given his opposition a huge opportunity.
So, to your other points about other timelines, I am not so sure that there are universes where Cronus won. Either you win everywhere or nowhere. The only way for there to be timelines where Zeus lost as well as ones where he won, is it isn't Zeus losing on the whole, only an avatar of him losing or winning. A fraction of his power. Unless of course Zeus started shrinking himself down so he could just be in one universe...but that seems unlikely with Zeus at least. Odin on the other hand...
I think you're probably right about the Outsider's strategy. Some universes would be more important than others, the closer they are to the original one the more parallel off-shoots should die. I don't know how the Spider-man and other IP universes factor in though. I have a sneaking suspicion that Dresden's universe is the original one, or one of the original ones. In the Chronicles of Amber, Amber is the original universe (basically Heaven) and normal Earth is one of the first ones from that. Jim could have gone either way.
Hmm I don't know about there not being many in the other universes. I think that would be a case by case thing. Not to mention, that's a very linear perspective. Outsiders and such beings see things from a broader picture. They could see the universe they are attacking as full or empty of starborn, depending on what point in a timeline they enter. But here's the thing: once they attack somewhere they become part of events, and therefore subject to what happens in them. It's more dangerous for them in some ways. They risk creating more universes with each assault as well.
I suspect all universes that Jim has made, i.e. his main characters are starborn, and possibly others. Jim has hinted once that all the stories are connected, and I think he is building up to a big multiverse-level event in the Dresedn Files.
-
I hadn't considered how blatant Heaven and Hell were in interfering during the Battle of Chicago. I'm sure part of what allowed Ethniu to fully manifest was the Titanic Bronze armour.
I think we've missed in this discussion is the difference between a parasocial fandom relationship and worship or in other words the relationship between a god and their worshippers. To paraphrase Ian Cameron Esselmont in Orb Sceptre Throne "Ascendancy (a lesser form of Godhood in the Malazan world) is a constant battle between what your worshippers want and what you want". A parasocial relationship is a one way thing, worship isn't. As discussed the largest religious groups in Chicago are Monotheistic incarnations of the White God, worshippers were under threat so the White God intervened in a pretty dramatic fashion.
There are also limits to standard celebrity, it's incredibly difficult to control the narrative around yourself in the modern celebrity ecosystem and what are gods if not narratives given power and flesh? Someone mentioned the college athlete who doesn't win the big one and if a god were to keep adopting that guise they would become the god of close but no cigar.
Which brings me back to the beautiful art of pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is stunts tied together by a story and you can reuse the same narratives over and over again almost like telling a myth. For a god who is a pro wrestler (and I'm betting Thor will have crossed over to pro wrestling like so many football players before him) you can use your control of the narrative to maintain your domain and when you are prayed too by your devotees you can offer something back. Imagine for a second you're the underdog in a competition, you know you should lose but refuse to. Now praying to Heath Slater (or whatever memetic loser you want to pick) isn't going to help much, while praying to a god inspired by Rey Mysterio or Bryan Danielson may get you somewhere.
As for Elon if he is a god I'd speculate he's Mammon or someone like that. He didn't invent squat and really pursues some counterintuitive goals in the name of greed.
Though, I wonder, would such a god then be the god of 'fighting a scripted battle with pre-determined winners'? Would be a lousy job title when faced with e.g. Harry 'the rules are more like guidelines, really' Dresden.
-
Not guidelines, suggestions.
-
Though, I wonder, would such a god then be the god of 'fighting a scripted battle with pre-determined winners'? Would be a lousy job title when faced with e.g. Harry 'the rules are more like guidelines, really' Dresden.
LOL. The god of battle stories isn't a bad role and besides, who's to say they'll be an antagonist?
-
Loki is evolving into the God of Stories in the comics (as opposed to Lies) that would make him Vince McMahon. Indeed Jim has shield away from questions involving Loki but has dealt with Thor in relation to Odin.
What if the whole Pro Wrestlers as gods is a misdirect and it’s not the talent but the organisers it’s focussing on?
-
Loki is evolving into the God of Stories in the comics (as opposed to Lies) that would make him Vince McMahon. Indeed Jim has shield away from questions involving Loki but has dealt with Thor in relation to Odin.
What if the whole Pro Wrestlers as gods is a misdirect and it’s not the talent but the organisers it’s focussing on?
Isn't stories about war also part of Ares portfolio?
There's a ton of places to go with that. Look at Vince McMahon, Vince Russo and Bischoff or even Tony Khan. All of them have over the top personalities which could be taken as building blocks for a flawed god complex (VKM for sure).
What really triggered this thread was realizing how many connections Shonen Manga have with the world of pro wrestling and how much they draw on Journey to the West which led me a Son Wukong hair clone as an inoffensive wrestler to use. Even if the clone gets jobbed out you know absolutely no one short of Uriel would want to fight the real deal Monkey King.
-
It could also be that it is the wrestling book in the same way that ghost story was the detective being locked up with the prisoners-book.
It could be an arena in the nevernever where gods fight, everyone is immortal, but something else is on the line. Or maybe there is an event every 1000 years and the winner gets x, or maybe it is supposed to be safe but now one god killed another and Dresden has to figure out what happened.
-
Well Harry hasn’t seen pro wrestling on TV for decades, he probably turns up at the WWF and ends up wrestling a Panda.