Yes and no, she was taken to be an Einenjahren due to her prowess as a giant slayer by Odin.How do you know? The white god is just another name for Ymir. Uriel and Odin did cut him up together to create the world and after that their careers diverged somewhat but that is why you never hear that much about the white god.
A WOJ indicates that the Einenjhar are brought back to life because Odin has access to Soul Fire, essential in properly bringing someone back from the dead as other than something like a Black Court Vampire.
Soul Fire is the gift of the White God not an inherent power of Odin
and of course Harry has it as well. Odin is effectively recruiting on behalf of the White God it would seem taking his use of Soul Power and the Kringle Mantle (Kringle can bypass thresholds, undoubtedly a protection put in place by the White God which Kringle is an exception to in agreement with Uriel).Kringle can bypass thresholds because he is a fairy and comes as a guest with good intentions.
This would make Murphy’s faith wholly consistent with the end of her life and her after-life, she had a good death but her service to the White God is not yet done. She was a former Knight of the Cross after all as well as being a Jotun Slayer.Gard said she would be taken care of. They will serve whatever she wants.
The Einenjhar in mythology are linked to Odin, he dies they die. They also cannot return until living memory has forgotten them ie within the lifespan of mortal man.
In the BAT Murphy might return, but if this is Ragnarok then Odin will die, so it may well be Harry uses his Soul Fire to replace Odin in that connection, meaning that Murphy would then live as long as Harry. Or may not.
Meanwhile Murphy is in Valhalla surrounded by large hairy men feasting on boar and mead and wondering where she can get a chicken salad and mineral water.
We have been given no data on Ymir, in the Dresdenverse we have on the White God,
It is described in the books when Cat Sith entered Thomas’ apartment. Mab entered Michaels house without invitation. They do not need an invitation if they behave like guests.
We do not have details about him. Only what people said and that is not reliable, they will tell the myth of the white god.
Odin hasn’t been forthcoming on his family, what we really need is a Larry Fowler Special dishing the dirt on the entire clan.
Kringle isn’t a Faerie he has a Faerie Mantle like Molly (cultural appropriation at its worst). A guest has to be invited in and whilst a goodly number of children invite Kringle in, I doubt unless an adult resident does so it sticks, a minor lacks the capacity to enter into a contract. The Fae are big on that.
Have you ever tried to get an institution to change ? I doubt they even have a proper ladies toilet. However I do not doubt Murphy is raising hell in Valhalla forcing change, throughShe is used to male environments and she trained with the einherjar in the past. She knows them.a kick to the groina cogent well structured argument.
Gard may say that she is fine, but her and her sisters don’t stay there.We don’t know that. We only meet the einherjar and the valkyries when they are on a mission.
As it stands Nathan is also probably making it known that he unhappy about the lack of a university level research library, as most of his new compatriots relied upon the oral tradition of the Edda’s rather than learn to read, let alone indulge in a doctoral level of academic debate.On average ancient people are more intelligent than modern people because they don’t have stupid factory jobs where you only have to turn one screw at every car or something like that. They can compose long poems without paper and sing them. Maybe Nathan did study Icelandic sagas.
She will absolutely be back. She won't be an injured, aged, vanilla mortal though.
Naw, she will have a hairy chest..But now she gets a new superpower. She can eat and drink as much as she wants and she will be still fit and healthy the next morning!
But now she gets a new superpower. She can eat and drink as much as she wants and she will be still fit and healthy the next morning!
Yeah, and among other things if she is farmed out to fight and is killed again, she wakes up to do it all over again...The dream of every martial arts fanatic!
The dream of every martial arts fanatic!
But it does get old after a while... Also what does that do to her faith and the promise of Heaven?That is the problem with most descriptions of the afterlife. People get endless creative describing the tortures of hell but their descriptions of heaven get boring rather fast. You sit on a cloud playing harp singing hallelujah. Wow.
That is the problem with most descriptions of the afterlife. People get endless creative describing the tortures of hell but their descriptions of heaven get boring rather fast. You sit on a cloud playing harp singing hallelujah. Wow.
This is what Murphy wanted. She wanted to be part of it and now she gets a role in the next apocalypse and she can act. I believe Gard when she tells Harry that Vadderung will treat her well.
That is the problem with most descriptions of the afterlife. People get endless creative describing the tortures of hell but their descriptions of heaven get boring rather fast. You sit on a cloud playing harp singing hallelujah. Wow.As part of the story I suppose it's okay, but as a reality, if I were Murphy, I would just as soon skip it. Life as a eternal mercenary would fit as my version of what hell might be, assuming there was life after death. Dying and fighting and suffering for eternity.
This is what Murphy wanted. She wanted to be part of it and now she gets a role in the next apocalypse and she can act. I believe Gard when she tells Harry that Vadderung will treat her well.
As part of the story I suppose it's okay, but as a reality, if I were Murphy, I would just as soon skip it. Life as a eternal mercenary would fit as my version of what hell might be, assuming there was life after death. Dying and fighting and suffering for eternity.
As part of the story I suppose it's okay, but as a reality, if I were Murphy, I would just as soon skip it. Life as a eternal mercenary would fit as my version of what hell might be, assuming there was life after death. Dying and fighting and suffering for eternity.Or she will fit in perfectly, she is not you or me. I do not think Vadderung would have taken her if it did not fit her. She would get bored quickly sitting on a cloud playing harp.
Her boss sells his service to a crime lord who murders, sells drugs and carries a Denarian Coin. Consider that. But I wasn't commenting on the story, I was commenting on the idea, for me personally. It sounds sexy when it's written but imagine going to war over and over again. And doing nothing else. I'd as soon have a harp.We are too far from the world where these stories originated and after the First World War most people got a better understanding about what war really is. But for the einherjar war’s terrible aspects are mostly removed. They won’t die or get crippled for life and it is not about getting wet cold and ill in some far away trench. For them it is more like extreme martial arts followed by partying every day. It is a simple and boring concept of heaven but I have never read a description of heaven that was good enough for me to spend eternity there without the treat of hell as the alternative.
Odin sells his services to a lot of people, Marcone but a single customer. Lara Raith is also a customer of Monoc. That’s at least two Aacords Members, governments of the supernatural world. Off course governments of the mortal world are going to use Monoc.Reconcile Murphy as a police officer and then as a bodyguard to someone like Marcone. How does that work as part of the her story? I'm sure that moral dilemma will never make it into the books, if we see her again at all. But it's implicit in the idea. You look at this in a way that is different then the way I do. For me sending her to wherever stole the emotional kick from her death. She didn't die in any true sense. All Jim did was take Harry's bone away and threw it into the yard next store. A plain headstone next to Harry's grave would have had more of an emotional punch for me. But Jim is the author so I bow to his sense of his story.
Reconcile Murphy as a police officer and then as a bodyguard to someone like Marcone. How does that work as part of the her story? I'm sure that moral dilemma will never make it into the books, if we see her again at all. But it's implicit in the idea. You look at this in a way that is different then the way I do. For me sending her to wherever stole the emotional kick from her death. She didn't die in any true sense. All Jim did was take Harry's bone away and threw it into the yard next store. A plain headstone next to Harry's grave would have had more of an emotional punch for me. But Jim is the author so I bow to his sense of his story.Bringing Murphy back, but changing her into some kind of mercenary police officer, wouldn't be the Murphy we know. Perhaps that is what is meant by no return until all mortal memory of her is lost or gone.
We are too far from the world where these stories originated and after the First World War most people got a better understanding about what war really is. But for the einherjar war’s terrible aspects are mostly removed. They won’t die or get crippled for life and it is not about getting wet cold and ill in some far away trench. For them it is more like extreme martial arts followed by partying every day. It is a simple and boring concept of heaven but I have never read a description of heaven that was good enough for me to spend eternity there without the treat of hell as the alternative.Really? War sanitized, who could ask for anything more? The einherjar around Marcone weren't suffering, but they didn't seem overly happy either. Hey it that was such a great thing, Gard wouldn't be mourning like she is, in theory, you'd think she'd be able to visit Hendrix any time she wanted and have a good old time. He's in Valhalla, she goes to those parties, but the catch is he is no longer the Hendrix she knew and loved.
Bringing Murphy back, but changing her into some kind of mercenary police officer, wouldn't be the Murphy we know. Perhaps that is what is meant by no return until all mortal memory of her is lost or gone.Really? War sanitized, who could ask for anything more?A lot more but that is me, the people who made up that story thought it was pretty cool. They liked hitting people apparently but saw some problems with it so their heaven had free hitting people for a good cause without repercussions.
The einherjar around Marcone weren't suffering, but they didn't seem overly happy either.They were ecstatic when they fought the jotun in battle ground.
Hey it that was such a great thing, Gard wouldn't be mourning like she is, in theory, you'd think she'd be able to visit Hendrix any time she wanted and have a good old time.Probably not. Jim somewhere described Valkyries as mortals with benefits.
He's in Valhalla, she goes to those parties, but the catch is he is no longer the Hendrix she knew and loved.As long as it is his soul it is basically him.
Why as a mercenary police officer? She is better suited than anyone to train other police officers in dealing with supernatural threats. All that needs to occur is that trainees from various forces aretaken to a “secure facility” i.e Valhalla where they undergo a couple of weeks residential training run by Murphy.
A lot more but that is me, the people who made up that story thought it was pretty cool. They liked hitting people apparently but saw some problems with it so their heaven had free hitting people for a good cause without repercussions.Yeah, well, you have to believe that the einherjar who worked for Marcone, worked for a good cause. At the end of the day, Marcone is still a murderous gangster, and the einherjar are part of that.
They were ecstatic when they fought the jotun in battle ground.
Probably not. Jim somewhere described Valkyries as mortals with benefits.I don't think Gard is a mortal.
As long as it is his soul it is basically him.Is it?
She will be farmed out, and do you think she will be allowed her own beliefs in these matters? I doubt it. Yeah, well, you have to believe that the einherjar who worked for Marcone, worked for a good cause.They are children of their time but in all their interactions they come across as human enough. Besides they were eager, not rabid. No biting in their shields and foam on their mouths. They just had fun.
[/spoiler]
Just as when she worked with Marcone in the past. The good cause is stopping the outsiders and that will be the focus of the last books.
She wanted to be involved with that.(click to show/hide)
Yeah, that is a lovely picture for Murphy.I don't think Gard is a mortal.Is it?It was explicitly stated in woj, mortal with benefits. The line between mortal and immortal is blurry though. I do not think these two get to see each other.
To be fair we do not know what the contract with Marcone says. It could be anything between they will do whatever you want and monster killing only. I do not think the latter is all that unlikely.Prejudice :) modern men are so much better.
One statement that could be relevant to the discussion is that Gard (or the other Valkyrie?) At one point stated that Einherjaren so not make good lovers. I wonder why that is?
Soul is the essence of who someone is. As long as you have your soul you are yourself. Walhalla is a genuine afterlife so the people in there are the same people. Makes no sense otherwise, it would not be an afterlife.You are you only so long as you have the people who are part of you in your life. When you're 100 and everybody you know is dead who are you then? It's a morbid thought but it is what it is. Remember those Ghosts in Ghost Story that couldn't remember who and what they were. They may not have been souls but they are much what I imagine souls could become watching everyone they ever knew die.
And souls would have no use.
You are you only so long as you have the people who are part of you in your life. When you're 100 and everybody you know is dead who are you then? It's a morbid thought but it is what it is. Remember those Ghosts in Ghost Story that couldn't remember who and what they were. They may not have been souls but they are much what I imagine souls could become watching everyone they ever knew die.Everybody she knew. She knew quite a few of them already.
In terms of the story it allows Jim to cheat. That's now three people Jim has stashed against some story idea that might need them. So Murphy will remain dead only so long as the story doesn't demand her.
Also Jim is very busy sanitizing Norse mythology. The entrance criteria to walhalla in Gard’s speech at the end of Battle Ground are from what you will find in old sources and where is vadderungs thirst for human sacrifices?Yeah, as I said when I added my two cents on this, it isn't about the myth. It's how I feel about the way he handled Murphy's death in terms of how the story is written.
One explanation is that when human stories change they change. The other one is that Jim does not want to deal too much with the differences in morality between the the original stories and current readers.
Murphy will be fine. Jim just changes the story enough to make that happen.
Gard acted as if she were bereaved, and she would know. For all we know she might have been contemplating a future, a family with Hendricks, and that is now gone.
Nothing says they won't be themselves. The rule is that all their mortal friends, enemies, associates and loved ones will have forgotten them. They'll have to make all new connections and may change over time but anyone like say, a time travelling wizard or an immortal mantle holder, could still sit down and have a beer with them and talk about old times.
Do you really think any of the Einenjhar that we've met at Marcone's place or elsewhere are like the mortals they used to be? I doubt it, other than their ability as warriors, friends and family are not part of their lexicon, they are dead. It is a kindness to those left behind I think, that they cannot return until all memory of them is lost.Of course they are. Just like the souls in Hades or those in heaven. Those are afterlives otherwise they wouldn’t be. It is Murphy who went to walhalla, this is different from things like black court vampires.
Of course they are. Just like the souls in Hades or those in heaven. Those are afterlives otherwise they wouldn’t be. It is Murphy who went to walhalla, this is different from things like black court vampires.
Like Uriel said. You are a soul, you have a body. The soul is the defining part and where Murphy’s soul is is Murphy.
Maybe, maybe not... What if Odin merely has their body, but not their soul? I don't really think being a cold blooded killer is the defining part of Murphy's soul..
Maybe, maybe not... What if Odin merely has their body, but not their soul?Then it is not an afterlife. Then she did not go there. Then the whole story makes no sense at all.
I don't really think being a cold blooded killer is the defining part of Murphy's soul..That is not how Gard formulated it.
warriors who died for family, for duty, for love
We have to follow Jim’s story here, not what we think we know about Valhalla.
I would rather it not. For one plain and specific reason. Harry's already had one "girl in the bathroom" trope done to him once, with Susan.Murphys death setting up the same sort of character growth for Dresden... Would just be overdone at this point.Jim might do a story from her POV but for all other purposes she is dead. Unless the apocalypse changes everything to such an extend that everything is possible. Jim might go completely crazy in the last books.
Then it is not an afterlife. Then she did not go there. Then the whole story makes no sense at all.
That is not how Gard formulated it.
Jim might do a story from her POV but for all other purposes she is dead. Unless the apocalypse changes everything to such an extend that everything is possible. Jim might go completely crazy in the last books.
Maybe it doesn't because it doesn't follow Murphy's faith, instead she was hijacked after her death, body and all.Hades got Deirdre. There are exceptions.
Perhaps not, but the warriors chosen were chosen because they were very good at what they did in life..That too.
Maybe Harry finds her diary or something of that nature, going through her stuff, a chore that has to be done after one dies.
Jim might do a story from her POV but for all other purposes she is dead. Unless the apocalypse changes everything to such an extend that everything is possible. Jim might go completely crazy in the last books.na, just cause the all father can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done. Death is a spectrum, and I get the feeling Odin took her just to keep her in the right range of it. Odin can revive people because he has soul fire... So exactly what would stop Harry from doing it? Except knowledge directly.
And Bonea would have knowledge of Soul Fire, so all Harry has to do is ask her.
Which he won’t.
It depends if he is doing so in accordance with the divine plan of the White God. Odin is, in creating the a Chekov's gunHarry cannot do so without abusing it for a personal whim, so he would need some greater purpose, otherwise Murphy dying with Odin at Ragnarok would go to her just reward for her faith and as a former Knight.The Angel of Death already did his job, Murphy is gone, whether he had anything to do with the
Harry would have to take on the Angel of Death, who he has already met in Ghost Story. Foreshadowing?
It is all about free will sure but it is maybe not about the faith you confess but about the choices you make. If you look at Murphy’s choices in the past were those choices more in line with Christ or with Vadderung?
At the end she made the choice that lead to a warrior dead.
I guess you could say that, she was a bit hypercritical when she was the self appointed custodian of the Swords.But every Valkyrie and einherjar she met liked her and had no problems with her choices. I can imagine Uriel and Vadderung having a discussion about her during lunch and they decide to look at her last choice.
I guess you could say that, she was a bit hypercritical when she was the self appointed custodian of the Swords.
And her choice resulted in the creation of the Faithsaber, a new Knight and the defeat by that Knight in combat of the previously undefeatable Denarian, and the White God’s relics.
Perhaps, but that isn't why she made that choice, others had to clean up her mess.The point is Vadderung would have approved of that choice. If it was his sword and his opposite the story would have been different.
The point is Vadderung would have approved of that choice. If it was his sword and his opposite the story would have been different.
That isn't the point though, did Murphy have a choice? As a good Christian, she would have chosen Heaven, that basically is what the Faith is about. Unless she feared Judgement? I don't say that because I think she was a bad person, I don't. However, yet another thing that Jim never explored, Murphy dealing with the aftermath of her own serious screw up with the Holy Swords and disability. Yeah, it came out okay as everyone points out, but that doesn't excuse the mistakes she made while she had them. Murphy knew she screwed up, and judge herself way harder perhaps than Divine Judgement would. A short story from her point of view after Skin Game would have been great.But Jim’s world is not exactly the same as a Christian world. Deirdre would have ended up in hell otherwise and though her destination is not without punishment it is different.
She fights Nic and the Sword is broken. The next day Butters gets the Faithsaber and beats Nic. By the time she wakes up from her pain meds in the hospital, Butters is there to show her it all worked out. At most, 48 hours go by and she spends most of that unconscious.
We'd already seen enough angsty Murphy with all the time she spent talking about the Nightmare and her grieving in GS. PT's Murphy is moving forward, trying to rehab and dealing with her relationship with Harry. Worrying about old coulda, woulda, shoulda problems that have been resolved in a good manner makes no sense for the practical Murphy we see beginning in SJ.Not the same, in Grave Peril it was about what Nightmare did to her, she was the victim. In Skin Game she was hypocritical with what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't give him the Swords back, then she did what she said shouldn't be done in her fight with Nic. She claimed to be the Sword's custodian, when she wasn't. She presumed to judge Nic and attempted to execute him with the Holy Sword, that is the Almighty's job, not hers, that is why the Sword got broken. None of that was ever dealt with in the aftermath.. No, suddenly she was cutting her cast away and while there were moments when she limped, mostly she had transformed into "Wonder Woman."
.
It's about why the Sword got broken.Not the same, in Grave Peril it was about what Nightmare did to her, she was the victim. In Skin Game she was hypocritical with what she told Harry as to why she wouldn't give him the Swords back, then she did what she said shouldn't be done in her fight with Nic. She claimed to be the Sword's custodian, when she wasn't. She presumed to judge Nic and attempted to execute him with the Holy Sword, that is the Almighty's job, not hers, that is why the Sword got broken. None of that was ever dealt with in the aftermath.. No, suddenly she was cutting her cast away and while there were moments when she limped, mostly she had transformed into "Wonder Woman."She was never hypocritical. She did her best. Failing is part of that, the only sure way not to fail is to do nothing at all. She knew who she was, she came into a situation and she did her best. If she thought she was the ideal knight she would have taken the sword, Harry asked her often enough.
She was never hypocritical.
When she picked it up again it was because she saw no other option. That does not make her hypocritical. I think describing her as hypocritical is a complete misunderstanding of her whole being.
adjective: hypocritical
behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
"we don't go to church and we thought it would be hypocritical to have him christened"
But what her choice made clear is that she was more suited for another mission.
That is a matter of opinion, she tells Harry all the reasons why she won't give him back the Swords.And at that moment in Cold Days she was completely right. I would not have given them back either.
Then she violates one of the main rules governing them..The rules are hard to keep for most people, even for most knights. Failing does not make you hypocritical, it makes you human.
It isn't about her picking up the Sword, that doesn't make her hypocritical.. After her very long soliloquy implying if the Swords got back in Harry's hands they could be misused but if they stayed in her hands they wouldn't..She tried to do what was best. The Harry in Cold Days is different from the Harry at the end of Skin Game. That Harry got the swords back.
It isn't about her using the Sword, it is about how she used it.Failing does not make you hypocritical. Her emotions, her love for Harry, her anger just kicked in.
Here is the definition of a hypocritical action;She did not berate Harry. She had the swords and she had to take a decision and she had to explain it. At that moment she did the correct thing. That does not mean she was the right knight material, that is why she did not take it up.
When Nic surrendered, gave up both noose and coin, instead of accepting it as a Holy Knight, or knowing the rules for the Swords.. Judgement wasn't up to her, yet she felt that he should die, judged him, tried to kill him and broke the Sword.. That wasn't doing what she had to do, it was doing what she knew to be wrong after berating Harry
about the rules governing the Swords and why they were better off in her hands. That my friend is hypocritical.Explaining the rules of the swords has nothing to do with explaining your personal morality. I think the rules of the swords are on purpose too difficult to achieve for most people. Understanding them is something else.
That has nothing to do with it, if it made anything clear, it was she had no business keeping the Swords once Harry came back.In Cold Days? That is not realistic.
She did not preach for others another morality than she believed for herself.
In Cold Days? That is not realistic.Cold Days, I'd agree, but not in Skin Game. And it really doesn't matter because she was preaching to him something she didn't believe herself, she made her own rules.
The rules are hard to keep for most people, even for most knights. Failing does not make you hypocritical, it makes you human.Perhaps, but after she preached to Harry about not bringing the Sword.. She secretly brought it, that had nothing to do with failing, it had everything to do about thinking the rules didn't apply to her.
behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
Yes, she did, in the beginning of Skin Game.. Cold Days, I'd agree, but not in Skin Game. And it really doesn't matter because she was preaching to him something she didn't believe herself, she made her own rules.Perhaps, but after she preached to Harry about not bringing the Sword.. She secretly brought it, that had nothing to do with failing, it had everything to do about thinking the rules didn't apply to her.Or she brought it because she hoped a knight would appear which in the end happened.
Taking it upon herself to judge Nic when she knew perfectly well it was against the rules had nothing to do with failing, but everything about believing the rules didn't apply to her. She flat out tells Harry why she cannot be a Knight, she doesn't believe in It's rules.. Then she brings it, breaks the rules governing it, and breaks the Sword.
In other words, like the definition;
That is Murphy's actions in Skin Game in a nutshell...
The idea that she broke the rules deliberately because she thought the rules applied to everyone else but not to her is not supported by the text.
The point is she picked it up in desperation to save Harry and and did not know how to act correctly when she knew Nicodemus was not acting sincerely and the only safe action seemed to be to kill him. She made an error in a highly emotional situation but that does not mean she was hypocritical. It just meant she failed according to the swords rules exactly what she told Harry what could happen with herself.
Hypocritical is basically a form of lying, a deception. A dishonesty. That is not supported by the text. Karen was honest to Harry.
For Mira’s point remember Murphy was awake the shoe fetishist Anduriel was listening in on them all the time.
Her falsehood was likely for Anduriel’s benefit, it was her Goodman Grey, the Sword was disguised as a rocket launcher, something which could have killed Blood on his Soul (except maybe not given he was a Denarian on top of his own prodigious healing ability).
It’s exactly the same as Harry treated the Spear in BG, just as a common knife.