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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: b4utoo on November 05, 2021, 01:59:18 AM

Title: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 05, 2021, 01:59:18 AM
From the castle to the Hogan on the island. Somehow uses the old spells make a connection. So he doesn't have to make a boat trip anymore. Or makes teleportation possible from castle.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 05, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
The Castle backs onto the Fae domains, likely rather than Leas garden now the Winter Knights quarters in Arctis Tor.

If Mab has a dungeon in Arctis Tor (of course she does, don’t be stupid) then this likely backs up or could be backed up onto Demonreach with Mab and Alfred’s cooperation. So from the Castle to the Winter Knights Quarters via the Never Never and a quick run to the Dungeon, from the Dungeon to Demonreach via the Never Never. Perhaps a couple of minutes and all of it through a highly protected part of the Never Never.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 05, 2021, 01:24:08 PM
I'm thinking point to point earth way not fae
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 05, 2021, 02:04:26 PM
Far too much power required and open to possible third party disruption.

Remember Demonreach is on tidal water and that will disrupt magic, going through the Never Never avoids this.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2021, 02:34:34 PM


He can also get there a lot quicker, I think it took at least an hour if not longer to get there by boat.
One caveat though, unless he is a hundred percent sure of the person or being, only Harry should travel this way.  Why?  Say he had a way and took Justine that way, disaster.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 05, 2021, 03:16:21 PM
Have the Demonreach end come out where Alfred is normally lurking, and in the Arctis Tor Dungeon have a suitably powerful and murderously loyal henchmonster to Harry/Mab. At the Castle there is Mouse and the Gargoyles, stopping anyone coming through that way into the Castle.

For the Arctis Tor dungeon perhaps an Eldest Yeti, so Harry can refer to it as a Wampa.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2021, 03:36:31 PM
Have the Demonreach end come out where Alfred is normally lurking, and in the Arctis Tor Dungeon have a suitably powerful and murderously loyal henchmonster to Harry/Mab. At the Castle there is Mouse and the Gargoyles, stopping anyone coming through that way into the Castle.

For the Arctis Tor dungeon perhaps an Eldest Yeti, so Harry can refer to it as a Wampa.
Yeah, but the better solution is keeping those you don't want in these ways out, all together.  There are ways now to Demonreach, but there are so many dangers connected with it, only the likes of Rashid dare to travel it.  Yet Peabody apparently did, landed on the island with a whole host of nasty creatures..
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 05, 2021, 03:52:28 PM
Yeah, but the better solution is keeping those you don't want in these ways out, all together.  There are ways now to Demonreach, but there are so many dangers connected with it, only the likes of Rashid dare to travel it.  Yet Peabody apparently did, landed on the island with a whole host of nasty creatures..
Peabody took the normal gate from Edinburgh to Chicago. The one Mouse was watching for him.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2021, 05:41:30 PM
Peabody took the normal gate from Edinburgh to Chicago. The one Mouse was watching for him.

Yeah, but not to the island, you forget all the giant spiders that came with him.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 05, 2021, 06:26:39 PM
Yeah, but not to the island, you forget all the giant spiders that came with him.
There was another person on the island as Harry discussed with Eb. I think Maeve brought the spiders, they are winter creatures.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 05, 2021, 08:51:16 PM
There was another person on the island as Harry discussed with Eb. I think Maeve brought the spiders, they are winter creatures.

But I don't think Maeve was on the island in Turn Coat.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 05, 2021, 10:09:01 PM
Portal to where Rashid was at least
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 05, 2021, 11:14:02 PM
Portal to where Rashid was at least

Which I doubt is anywhere convenient to Harry. The point is to cut down on journey time, not increase it.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 06, 2021, 04:50:18 AM
Which I doubt is anywhere convenient to Harry. The point is to cut down on journey time, not increase it.

Well, at long last Harry will have to use the jewel his mother left him that maps out all the ways.  I haven't heard anything about it since Changes.  Guess because of being pregnant in his head he couldn't use it to get off the island between Cold Days and Skin Game.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on November 06, 2021, 05:31:01 AM
Harry could have used Rashid's Way to leave if he really wanted to. He stayed on Demonreach to suppress the headaches.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 06, 2021, 05:43:39 AM
Demonreach may not have been in the Jewel, if Margaret had never travelled there. It is basically a GPS of the Never Never, but like all GPS will have data holes, where info has not been input. Harry should be able to update it, but that means finding the routes. Currently he will only have added Marcone’s Bank to Hades Vault.

He should also be able to download it for other users. For example if he has a wizard level ally such as Elaine he should be able to download to a similar jewel the database, and then after a time be able to input new data from the duplicate adding to the database. I wonder if Harry can use the Hades diamonds for this purpose? As inanimate data storage as opposed to Bob? Could you download existing data Bob and Bonea might have in relation to the Never Never Routes? I would think a spirit of intellect would be imminently compatible for such a task.

But why limit that to routes through the Never Never? Bob and Bonea have read multitudes of books (not just bodice rippers, and pancake Cook books) you could put an entire library on a diamond and that would be usable by paranetters, whereas the Never Never data is only really usable by those strong enough to access the Never Never.

Bob has shown that he can utilise the electromagnetic spectrum, so both he and Bonea should be able to update the jewels remotely in real time, as well as add data from the internet.

Harry theoretically has everything he needs to bring about the Information Age in wizardry, and have the users update that information on a daily basis, a sort of Encyclopedia of magic.

An Wiccanpedia.

Yes I have spent this entire post building up to a pun. And I don’t regret it at all.


Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 06, 2021, 10:22:39 AM
But I don't think Maeve was on the island in Turn Coat.
It was a nemesis/black council operative not the same as Peabody who was kept secret by Jim but he gave subtle clues about his/her identity.

Jim was building towards the unveiling of that agent from proven guilty or even summer knight. Smal clues can be interpreted with hindsight.

Maeve’s invisible hand had to pop up at places and turncoat is obvious. The winter spiders are a clue.

The winter spiders are a clue. They were also in direct violation of Mab’s policy which is a clue as well when they harassed the ways. That was a clue as well.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 06, 2021, 11:55:50 AM
Here’s a thought, did Maeve need to make a portal through the Never Never? If she is powerful enough to teleport, she could have teleported Peabody and the Spiders.

That would indicate only Rashid could access the way to Demonreach.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 06, 2021, 02:19:37 PM
Here’s a thought, did Maeve need to make a portal through the Never Never? If she is powerful enough to teleport, she could have teleported Peabody and the Spiders.

That would indicate only Rashid could access the way to Demonreach.
Peabody was seen taking the same route as the white council members.

As far as I know we have not seen real teleport in the dresdenverse yet. Everyone uses gates.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 06, 2021, 04:35:47 PM
Peabody was seen taking the same route as the white council members.

As far as I know we have not seen real teleport in the dresdenverse yet. Everyone uses gates.

Actually not, if I remember correctly the Senior Council members traveled to the island by boat.  That was the reason why Rashid was able arrive ahead of them, he traveled by a way, though he added most wouldn't go that way because it was nasty and dangerous.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 06, 2021, 09:25:08 PM
I definitely want to know the way to demon reach.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 06, 2021, 09:47:15 PM
Actually not, if I remember correctly the Senior Council members traveled to the island by boat.  That was the reason why Rashid was able arrive ahead of them, he traveled by a way, though he added most wouldn't go that way because it was nasty and dangerous.
The gate were the detective and mouse saw him. Afterwards he went to the is.and separately.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 06, 2021, 11:27:11 PM
Well think about it. I doubt Merlin boated to the island after every prisoner.  Maybe the big bad on the never never side is actually warden neutral
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 07, 2021, 12:14:19 AM
Mab teleported in Peace Talks into the back of Harry’s car with Lara, so yes she doesn’t have to use the Ways. I presume Maeve could teleport BUT it is probably a proportionately higher power drain for her, and something she doesn’t do casually, especially if it is the part of the year where Winters power is waning.

Peabody came through the Way from Edinburgh to Chicago where the Spiders were, at that point he met up with Maeve, she teleports him and the Spiders to the island, but doesn’t take part in the battle because she needs to recharge, she is able to teleport Peabody off back to Chicago, he goes back via the ways to Edinburgh.

Rashid knows and is able to traverse the way to Demonreach, which probably requires currently going through Tartarus which means Maeve and Peabody wouldn’t try it even if they know it, they would be no match for Hades. Rashid wouldn’t likely have that problem. Tartarus likely backs onto many famous ex prisons - Alcatraz, the Bastille, the Tower of London, the demolished old Tolbooth in Edinburgh so you travel to a waypoint near one of them and go on the tour, pick up the way to Tartarus and then back to Demonreach.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 07, 2021, 01:48:14 AM
Catsith teleported
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 07, 2021, 03:17:11 AM
Jim has used some form of instantaneous transport since the beginning.  Whenever Harry has summoned any of the Queens they just appear. They don't step through a a portal.

In Peace Talks the strange thing is how did Mab know where Harry was well enough to hit a moving car? In my minds eye I can hear Jim saying "I'm not going to tell you." in that singsong voice.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 07, 2021, 03:54:02 AM
Quote
Jim has used some form of instantaneous transport since the beginning.  Whenever Harry has summoned any of the Queens they just appear. They don't step through a a portal.

I think that is a bit different from teleportation when a being is summoned.  Yeah, it appears to be teleportation but I think it different from say a wizard doing it to go from place to place. I think there is something else going on.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: groinkick on November 07, 2021, 04:03:57 AM
My opinion is a portal to get there would create a security risk. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 07, 2021, 05:22:46 AM
Catsith teleported

That may just be a cat thing, see “I don’t own a cat”
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 07, 2021, 06:04:37 AM
Jim has used some form of instantaneous transport since the beginning.  Whenever Harry has summoned any of the Queens they just appear. They don't step through a a portal.

In Peace Talks the strange thing is how did Mab know where Harry was well enough to hit a moving car? In my minds eye I can hear Jim saying "I'm not going to tell you." in that singsong voice.
As she said it was her car, she could have done anything with that car to prepare for it. Or they were already in the car and just made themselves visible.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 07, 2021, 03:21:31 PM
As Mab said "it is her car". And as Odin said it is "your Island" so Harry can in theory teleport from his castle to his island if someone showing how to teleport.

In theory this can be a major game-changer.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: SerScot on November 07, 2021, 03:59:10 PM
From the castle to the Hogan on the island. Somehow uses the old spells make a connection. So he doesn't have to make a boat trip anymore. Or makes teleportation possible from castle.

Only twice in the series have we seen direct point to point ways from different places.  The Door created by Vadderrung at CI back to St.
Mary’s and Mab’s door in Harry’s suite back to Chicago.  Harry makes it very clear that this is magic well beyond him and most practioners. 

He doesn’t have the juice or skill to pull this off.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: SerScot on November 07, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
Far too much power required and open to possible third party disruption.

Remember Demonreach is on tidal water and that will disrupt magic, going through the Never Never avoids this.

The tides on Lake Michigan are so small as to be nonexistent.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 07, 2021, 06:19:47 PM
Does anybody really think that there won't be fast transport to the island?  Harry has Merlin's castle(it's my story and I'm sticking with it) and Merlin's prison.  Is someone seriously suggesting that there isn't a magic door somewhere on the premises.  It could be the address was changed when the castle was built over the basement so now it opens up on the whats up dock instead on Lea's garden. Or it could be that Harry ends up with the Morgana's Athame  which Lea used to open a portal in ?Grave Peril?.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 07, 2021, 06:35:39 PM
Does anybody really think that there won't be fast transport to the island?  Harry has Merlin's castle(it's my story and I'm sticking with it) and Merlin's prison.  Is someone seriously suggesting that there isn't a magic door somewhere on the premises.  It could be the address was changed when the castle was built over the basement so now it opens up on the whats up dock instead on Lea's garden. Or it could be that Harry ends up with the Morgana's Athame  which Lea used to open a portal in ?Grave Peril?.

I don't know if it is going to go down like that, but since Jim took the trouble to seriously damage if not sink Harry's one mode of transport to the island, an acceptable replacement has to be found.  Even if he got another boat, that is way too slow, he doesn't always have hours to get what he needs from the island.  I also think since it was brought up, that Harry will find out how to teleport.  Mab and Molly might find it is easier for him to come to them instead of the other way around in a summons and give him the power to do it.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 07, 2021, 08:09:05 PM
Does anybody really think that there won't be fast transport to the island?  Harry has Merlin's castle(it's my story and I'm sticking with it) and Merlin's prison.  Is someone seriously suggesting that there isn't a magic door somewhere on the premises.  It could be the address was changed when the castle was built over the basement so now it opens up on the whats up dock instead on Lea's garden. Or it could be that Harry ends up with the Morgana's Athame  which Lea used to open a portal in ?Grave Peril?.
Fast transport to the island would make things too easy for Harry.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 07, 2021, 10:24:54 PM
Not if it was described as a cost to do. That time in between jumps is needed. And the Lea's garden isn't there anymore. I wouldn't think. Remember that it has to be a "like" place and it's changed
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 07, 2021, 10:41:41 PM
I have already described viable routes through to the  NeverNever  Castle to Winter Knights Apartment at Arctis Tor, Arctis Tor Dungeon to Demonreach.

The Problem would be that every time he used it he risks being accosted by Winter Courtiers remember Mab’s Ball? It would go from the tedious to the suicidal.

The Winter Court would have its own version of a Peabody, a joyless bureaucrat,  Mab’s Chamberlain who wants Harry’s paperwork in triplicate (one for each Queen, though I suspect Mother Winter as an Intellectus appreciates the toilet paper).

It will also have those who would challenge Harry’s position in the Court trying to obstruct him (he must take at least one of them along to Demonreach with him and leave him there in stasis for a bit)

Also perfect for Mab to ambush Harry for updates on the wedding etc.

It may be shorter, but it will seem much much longer.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 08, 2021, 12:44:16 AM
Well I believe it will be a point to point
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 08, 2021, 12:45:47 AM
Not via the Never Never.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 08, 2021, 02:03:34 AM
Castle to island
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 08, 2021, 11:23:00 AM
Castle to island

Mortal world to mortal world, can be done but takes god level power, like Odin.

Harry is not a god.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 08, 2021, 05:11:59 PM
He doesn't need to be a God, he only needs to find a hidden magic door that links the castle to Demonreach.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 08, 2021, 06:41:52 PM
You mean a deux ex machina?

Why should there be a magic door between a random Scottish Castle and Demonreach?

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 08, 2021, 10:37:03 PM
If you believe that is a random castle then I have some land I would like you to look at. From a distance.  In the dry season.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 09, 2021, 12:02:01 AM
The belief in a magic door to Demonreach when there is nothing to suggest this is irrational. The Castle has intricate Wards and may possibly extrude Gargoyles based upon the Good Folk and final chapters of BG, but there has been nothing other than wishful thinking about a magic door.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 09, 2021, 01:42:44 AM
I will give consideration to the thought that you are, in fact, correct. After all we're  talking about magic doors in a magic castle that has a portal into faerie in the basement. One that a criminal mastermind had imported from Europe for some formerly dead Viking warriors.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 09, 2021, 01:44:12 AM
Marcone and Drakul aren't gods either...whos says Harry can't widen that point to point jump or use some unknown castle to island jump spell
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 09, 2021, 01:46:22 AM
Good thing this story covers everything rational and irrational and gods to fairies and little dogs too...
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 09, 2021, 03:13:42 AM
Bonnie and Bob could help translate the spell work. Maybe even just flat out ask odin
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 09, 2021, 04:05:14 AM
Everywhere touches onto the Never Never at some point, the Castle isn’t special in that regard.

The point to point teleportation exhibited by Dracula and Namshiel appeared to be line of sight, not miles over tidal water. The same applied to the mode of Travel employed by Harry in Ghost Story

Jim tries to be consistent within the Universes that he builds and believes in Checkov’s Gun, no magic door or allusion to one has previously been given, plenty of reference has been given to use of the Never Never. Wishing otherwise isn’t going to change this unless you are Jim.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 09, 2021, 05:43:27 AM
I love consistency too.  Merlin built a prison on one end of Lake Michigan 600 or so years ago, or earlier, and didn't have a way to get there? Couple of thousand miles from where lore places him?  But you're right. I'm irrational about this.  I hate that effing boat.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Ed0517 on November 09, 2021, 09:33:58 AM
Harry lived on the island for a while after Ghost Story, right? So it was home. He is good at making magical items. He conjures a pair of ruby slippers, clicks his heels, and presto, he is at his vacation home on Demonreach, his beach house. He is Warden there, and RHIP.  Merlin probably installed a staff entrance, anyway, maybe that only the Warden can use.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 09, 2021, 09:40:08 AM
Harry lived on the island for a while after Ghost Story, right? So it was home. He is good at making magical items. He conjures a pair of ruby slippers, clicks his heels, and presto, he is at his vacation homPe on Demonreach, his beach house. He is Warden there, and RHIP.  Merlin probably installed a staff entrance, anyway, maybe that only the Warden can use.

Wrong universe.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 09, 2021, 10:43:21 AM
Well CT says it must be so. No further discussion needed. Let's all wait until he gives Jim the next story line. So we all have zero possibility of getting anything correct unless we repeat CT's own theory. Just a friendly reminder so none of us waste anymore time thinking of possibilities.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: TrueMonk on November 22, 2021, 10:27:18 PM
The advantage of having the path being castle, labs dungeon, island is that anyone taking that path would have to be a bit insane.

Yes, the island is a bad place, but Mabs dungeon :-O

Hey Nic, let's have this talk out on my magic island. No worries there is a quick path there through the nevernever. I am definitely not going to leave you in Mabs dungeon.

I also think the direct door is plausible btw.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 23, 2021, 03:13:49 AM


 As I said in the other thread of a similar theme, Jim sunk the boat, Harry needs a way to get to
the island.  The island holds an arsenal that Harry needs access to, sometime rather quickly.  He has a jewel in his pentacle that will help him navigate anywhere through the Nevernever that he hasn't used since Changes.  If Lea's garden is still there, and there is no reason why it shouldn't be, it is in the Nevernever, the castle was built on top of the old building, even using apparently at least part of it's foundation since Harry's old basement lab is still there.  So when you consider all of the above facts together, I predict that if he needs to get to Demonreach, Harry from the castle, will open a portal into Lea's garden, and with his mother's jewel navigate the quickest and safest way he can to the island.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 23, 2021, 04:44:01 AM
The Never Never changes and Lea invested her power in matching up her garden to Harry’s apartment (I wonder what other stalkery behaviour she has been up to in the past which has yet to come to light). It wasn’t a natural congruence and she wouldn’t waste her power maintaining it with no Harry.

As a dedicated stalker once Harry’s apartment burnt down she would have fixated on his next abode, which was Demonreach, and out of her weight class, as is the Carpenters abode. Molly’s Apartment on the other hand oh yes she will have moved her garden there in a heartbeat, as Molly is her second favourite stalkee.

However you have to take Mab into account. Harry is now the Winter Knight, taking on Lea’s agreement with Harry and building on it so whilst the garden may be back she is likely to want more control of Harry (Mab is a control freak rather than a stalker). That is why I think it will be backing onto the Winter Knights apartments in Arctis Tor, same idea, different implementation, and a connection between her Dungeon and Demonreach, so Harry has to go past the large plaque saying “Lloyd Slate Memorial Torture Cell” to get to Demonreach, because well, Mab. Mab likes keeping Harry in his place, which is in fact actually her place. Mab would have to invest power to make make the connections but Winter Knight abode to Winter Knight Abode and Supernatural Dungeon to Supernatural Dungeon, probably wouldn’t take much and would stick fairly well once done.

Indeed the Mab Dungeon to Demonreach leg may already have been in place, it may have been part of the Gatekeepers route in the first place, very few would dare use it, but the Gatekeeper would have been cleared to do so. He could have come to Arctis Tor from the Outer Gates and to Demonreach that way.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 23, 2021, 10:26:43 AM
Everybody and their brother can and has  gotten to Demonreach by some type of portal.  Which is different then getting inside Demonreach. I should say everybody but Harry.  He's too dumb and has to go in a leaky boat which takes hours.  However it does make a nice break in the action when Chicago is under assault.  Harry says "The apocalypse is here, let's go boating."  And it's not even a fast boat.  Right./s
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 23, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Everybody and their brother can and has  gotten to Demonreach by some type of portal.  Which is different then getting inside Demonreach. I should say everybody but Harry.  He's too dumb and has to go in a leaky boat which takes hours.  However it does make a nice break in the action when Chicago is under assault.  Harry says "The apocalypse is here, let's go boating."  And it's not even a fast boat.  Right./s

No, not everybody and his brother got to Demonreach by portal, in Turn Coat the whole Senior Council with the exception of Rashid, and Peabody, went there by boat. 
Turn Coat page 296 hardback

Quote
"Where's the rest of the Senior Council?"
"On the way, I should think," he said.  "They'll need to secure transportation to the island in Chicago and then find their way here."
"But not you.  You came through the Nevernever?"
He nodded, his eyes watching me carefully. "I know a Way.  I've been here before."

So apparently there isn't a portal or a Way that everybody and his brother can use..  And on page 303, Harry describes the arrival of the Senior Council, including Wardens hidden under veils, by a rented boat.

I also doubt that the Nevernever changes all that much if Mab doesn't want it to change.  It is to her advantage if Harry can enter the Nevernever easily, so I imagine if there isn't one at the castle now, there will be one.  It is possible that even Marcone used it.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 23, 2021, 02:34:33 PM
Sarcastic exaggeration.  The point stands.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on November 23, 2021, 05:50:48 PM
Outside of the Gatekeeper and the other wizard in Turn Coat, no one has used a Way to reach Demonreach that we've seen. Nic and his crew used boats when they kidnapped Ivy. Shagnasty flew in all the other attendees came by boat or helicopter. The Summer and Winter contingents in Cold Days came by air according to Fix(so even Maeve and Aurora didn't know a safe Way). Even Mab comes by boat when she collects Harry in Skin Game. Whatever is on the Never Never side of Demonreach is something only the powerful and desperate will risk.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 23, 2021, 06:48:07 PM
Outside of the Gatekeeper and the other wizard in Turn Coat, no one has used a Way to reach Demonreach that we've seen. Nic and his crew used boats when they kidnapped Ivy. Shagnasty flew in all the other attendees came by boat or helicopter. The Summer and Winter contingents in Cold Days came by air according to Fix(so even Maeve and Aurora didn't know a safe Way). Even Mab comes by boat when she collects Harry in Skin Game. Whatever is on the Never Never side of Demonreach is something only the powerful and desperate will risk.
The gatekeeper was very careful not to set foot on the island.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 23, 2021, 06:53:29 PM
I wonder if Demonreach never never side or faire side I'm sure that's significant. I'm doubting it's fairy. I'm sure what ever it is is pretty bad and could be very far away. In which some type of teleportal lol is needed
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 23, 2021, 06:54:31 PM
I know some figured out how to get there quick but how many know of it
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM
Sarcastic exaggeration.  The point stands.

An exaggeration, yes, but you are also wrong!  Outside of Rashid and Peabody, not even Mab traveled to Demonreach by a portal or Way, in Skin Game she traveled there by yacht, check out the beginning of chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3.. Oh and when the Outsiders tried to invade, they went by barge, check out Cold Days.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 23, 2021, 08:16:22 PM
If Peabody knew a way why did he use the same way to Chicago as the other white council members?
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 23, 2021, 09:18:15 PM
I don't know that the text actually says Peabody, but two somebody's did in Turn Coat.  Maeve, Lily, the Redcap, the Rawhide, Fix and others do in Cold Days. Unless of course they rode in on invisible boats. Per canon I wouldn't expect the White Council to know a way there. Otherwise what's the point of Harry's magic map.  If the information were common the crystal would be mundane. Mab's been there three times. I've always assumed that she teleported and knocked on the door, so to speak ,when Harry had himself shot. She's certainly been inside. She could have called in an Air Ambulance I suppose. Snark aside, the point being that if you want to get to Demonreach by portal it isn't impossible.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 23, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
I don't know that the text actually says Peabody, but two somebody's did in Turn Coat.  Maeve, Lily, the Redcap, the Rawhide, Fix and others do in Cold Days. Unless of course they rode in on invisible boats. Per canon I wouldn't expect the White Council to know a way there. Otherwise what's the point of Harry's magic map.  If the information were common the crystal would be mundane. Mab's been there three times. I've always assumed that she teleported and knocked on the door, so to speak ,when Harry had himself shot. She's certainly been inside. She could have called in an Air Ambulance I suppose. Snark aside, the point being that if you want to get to Demonreach by portal it isn't impossible.
We don't know how Maeve and company got on the island in Cold Days, but it clearly states the Outsiders used barges, of any of those mentioned could get to the island via portal or whatever it would have been Outsiders....  I wouldn't be shocked if Maeve and Lily used a boat as well, it also clearly states in Skin Game that Mab traveled to the island and back by yacht, if anyone knew of a portal and or Way, she would.  Yet in Skin Game Harry describes her speed yacht pulling up to What's Up Dock and later pulling into Chicago on it/
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: TrueMonk on November 23, 2021, 09:52:18 PM
I think Fix said that Maeve, Lily and the others flew there.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 23, 2021, 10:56:14 PM
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“Flew in,” Fix said. “Shape-shifters. I dropped from a hang glider over the lake and parachuted in.”
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 24, 2021, 01:44:44 AM
The issue about using a portal to Demonreach is that with a Warden in place and it’s defences active you can’t. Odin and Ferrovax can block the NeverNever for Chicago and I presume Alfred can for the much smaller area of Demonreach.

Even without its full defences active it isn’t an easy place to portal in. Maeve presumably was able to do so to bring in Peabody (which is the current popular theory) but wasn’t able to do so in Cold Day’s. Mab suspected her for decades, but in Cold Day’s she was fully recognised as a threat. If there is an Arctis Tor route, previously available to her, it wouldn’t have been available by Cold Days. Mab had a spy in Maeves court the Redcap, so if he reported her interest in Demonreach with the Peabody incident, that would have been closed to her.

Thinking about it it is entirely in Mab’s character to have allowed Maeve to use the Portal as a test to see if she was connected with the Black Council.

There is at least one other portal to Arctis Tor used in Proven guilty, so Maeve, so  Peabody portalled from Edinburgh to Chicago, got a cab across Town to the Proven Guilty Portal where he was met by Maeve outside Arctis Tor, who then took him and the Spiders via the Arctis Tor Portal to Demonreach, taking him back.

The fact that there isn’t a more direct portal to Arctis Tor than Chicago or at least a safe one for Peabody is either noteworthy or lazy writing by Jim. The whole reveal of Peabody would have failed otherwise if a different route was available.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 24, 2021, 03:19:47 AM
I cede the point and Harry will be doomed to having wet feet. Better him than me.

We disagree on Proven Guilty and when Mab knew. I won't argue it
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 24, 2021, 03:33:24 AM
“Flew in,” Fix said. “Shape-shifters. I dropped from a hang glider over the lake and parachuted in.”

Thanks, that still ain't using a portal or a Way.. ::)
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 25, 2021, 01:40:51 AM
Just how scary is whatever is on the other side to make the winner Queen and her whole crew to steer clear
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 25, 2021, 09:29:54 AM
Probably Peabody did something similar to what Fix and Lilly did with Maeve's help. That is why he went to Chicago via the nevernever and used the same route as the rest of the senior council. So only one we know for sure who used a gate to get even near is the gatekeeper and he stayed off the island.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 25, 2021, 12:04:40 PM
Probably Peabody did something similar to what Fix and Lilly did with Maeve's help. That is why he went to Chicago via the nevernever and used the same route as the rest of the senior council. So only one we know for sure who used a gate to get even near is the gatekeeper and he stayed off the island.

Though somebody else did and brought all those nasty spiders etc with him or her..  I pray it wasn't Rashid playing a very deep,deep, game... :o
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 25, 2021, 12:47:22 PM
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Seconds later, another pair of humanlike presences simply appeared in the woods four hundred yards away.
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“But not you. You came through the Nevernever?”

He nodded, his eyes watching me carefully. “I know a Way. I’ve been here before.”
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There was only one explanation for that—the new arrivals were calling forth muscle from the Nevernever. I was betting that the pair on the beach was Madeline and Binder, and that he had begun calling out his grey men the moment his feet hit the ground.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Griffyn612 on November 25, 2021, 02:59:04 PM
As much as I want him to have a door like the one in Cold Days, I don't think he'll have one anytime soon for a few reasons, some Watsonian, some Doylist.

I figure he'll use his mom's ruby in Twelve Months to find a Way to the island that's only a few hops. But I could see a door being made later in the series that's sponsored by Alfred and has prison-and-Gate style wards on it to keep baddies out.

I mean come on, I could totally see some sidhe finding a missing pantry door at the outer gates, and another just shrugging and saying, "Dresden".
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 25, 2021, 03:53:47 PM
The point is that the island is available to anyone with a boat, plane, jet ski or two sharks. And once there you can call in the troops. As evidenced by both Turn Coat and Cold Days.  So risk to the prison isn't the issue. Butcher has done some nice set pieces on the boat. And it has always served the story well.

But he's off the rails with it now, which I know is a minority position, since it allows the silly horseshit that Harry does in Peace Talks. The bad guys show up, kill the retainers, kick the door down and slag Mab.  After all that, Harry calmly goes to the dock, fights Eb, takes a boat ride, plays tag with Lara and generally speaking wastes time.

I point out that when push came to shove that Demonreach came to Chicago to get the Titan while Harry had to take Thomas to the prison, which in my book screams massive inconsistency. Or did I miss something?  Anyway I'll shut up about it and take a break for a while.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on November 25, 2021, 05:18:08 PM
Binder can call his people when on the island. That does not mean he came there via the never ever. Binder had a wetsuit, he probably used jet skis or something like that.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 25, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
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The point is that the island is available to anyone with a boat, plane, jet ski or two sharks. And once there you can call in the troops. As evidenced by both Turn Coat and Cold Days.  So risk to the prison isn't the issue. Butcher has done some nice set pieces on the boat. And it has always served the story well.

Both Turn Coat and Cold Days took place before Harry fully took up his Warden duties.  Between Cold Days and Skin Game he fully engaged Demonreach's defenses and he and Alfred are on the same page now, as we saw in both Peace Talks and Battle Ground, not so easy to get on the island these days if Harry doesn't want you on the island.
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But he's off the rails with it now, which I know is a minority position, since it allows the silly horseshit that Harry does in Peace Talks. The bad guys show up, kill the retainers, kick the door down and slag Mab.  After all that, Harry calmly goes to the dock, fights Eb, takes a boat ride, plays tag with Lara and generally speaking wastes time.
Not sure what you mean here.  Yes, Harry took Thomas to the island and put him in a cell.  Lara and her Valkyrie tried to attack and they didn't get anywhere because Harry didn't want them to, not just his power, but as Warden, the power of the island.  Now if Justine/HWWB had managed to totally fool Harry and got inside the defenses, it would have been a different story.  But he wasn't fooled, Lara's men got on the island because Alfred let them to save Harry, but the Valkyrie was thrown sever hundred feet when she tried again to step on the island.  If Harry doesn't want Eb on the island, he isn't getting on, no need to fight.
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I point out that when push came to shove that Demonreach came to Chicago to get the Titan while Harry had to take Thomas to the prison, which in my book screams massive inconsistency. Or did I miss something?  Anyway I'll shut up about it and take a break for a while.
Yes, you did miss a bit..  Harry did have to take Thomas to the island by boat.  Then he bound him and Alfred put him in a cell.  Harry knowing there was no way he was going to bring the Titian to the island or that it was unlikely, asked Alfred what his range was?  The reply was with the power boost I believe of the Spear, the lake shore of Chicago was about it.  That is why Harry with Marcone's help had to lure the Titian to the shore once they got the Eye away from her.  However Harry still had to bind her and call up Alfred to take her just like he did Thomas.  Only difference was the distance from which it was done.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on November 25, 2021, 06:03:18 PM
The point is that the island is available to anyone with a boat, plane, jet ski or two sharks. And once there you can call in the troops. As evidenced by both Turn Coat and Cold Days.  So risk to the prison isn't the issue. Butcher has done some nice set pieces on the boat. And it has always served the story well.

But he's off the rails with it now, which I know is a minority position, since it allows the silly horseshit that Harry does in Peace Talks. The bad guys show up, kill the retainers, kick the door down and slag Mab.  After all that, Harry calmly goes to the dock, fights Eb, takes a boat ride, plays tag with Lara and generally speaking wastes time.

I point out that when push came to shove that Demonreach came to Chicago to get the Titan while Harry had to take Thomas to the prison, which in my book screams massive inconsistency. Or did I miss something?  Anyway I'll shut up about it and take a break for a while.

Harry didn't have a binding crystal on him when the Thomas rescue plan went down. He took one with him to the Ethniu fight. Perhaps he should start carrying one or two with him... nah, that would be smart, can't have that until the book's climatic finale.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 25, 2021, 08:12:30 PM
Binder can call his people when on the island. That does not mean he came there via the never ever. Binder had a wetsuit, he probably used jet skis or something like that.

Binder is a summoner, it requires him to physically get to the place and lay a circle. There is a bloody huge summoning circle on Demonreach which Harry could use to bring bad guys to the island.

This does make me think this would be limited to those in the Never Never, a threat in the mortal world like the Titan couldn’t be summoned in this fashion which would explain the need to get her to the lakeside. She had been hiding out in the mortal world.Remember Bob hid in the mortal world to avoid Mab, if he was in the Never Never could he just have been summoned?

This would suggest summoning creates a temporary congruency between the mortal world and the part of the Never Never where the target is causing an overlap within the circle. Breaking the circle releases them into the mortal world. If done successfully with enough will the target has no choice. If the target is in the mortal world (like Toot) they have a choice, but in Toots case greed overcame his caution.

The Majority of the inmates were likely summoned from the NeverNever to the summoning circle at Demonreach and bound by the Warden and Alfred. This explains why the bad guys don’t know about Demonreach.  Harry of course did it the hard way, using Bob on the lake shore. If so it would be unusual for Harry to have a summoning Crystal off the island, it’s use is very limited. Of his opponents only really Puck and Shagnasty really qualify, Cowl if he had succeeded in the Darkhallow and Harry would have to lure them to the lakeshore.

Harry should really try to use the summoning circle to take down Puck, he knows enough about him to summon the Wildfae, and it would be a good test, as well as removing a threat to the future of Chicago.(Puck is from the comics which are cannon, I think Harry beat him with sleight of hand learnt from his dad rather than pure chance, Puck was looking for a Wizard to cheat with magic).

Creating a portal is just punching through to the NeverNever and the congruency isn’t created, it already exists, but may not be the one you desire that is why you need to use the ways to get from point A to point B.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 30, 2021, 01:04:44 PM
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Creating a portal is just punching through to the NeverNever and the congruency isn’t created, it already exists, but may not be the one you desire that is why you need to use the ways to get from point A to point B.

Indeed it does, perhaps Harry needs to have another heart to heart with Rashid about the pot holes that Way contains, because I bet Harry won't have much choice but to use that Way.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 30, 2021, 03:53:40 PM
Entrances from the Nevernever exist wherever Jim needs them to exist.

Like mirrors, that from Proven Guilty.  From Harry's closet in the Knight's quarters, Cold Days. In the middle of the train station in Small Favor by both the Hobs and the Gruffs. The Gruffs apparently could use the Oak Cluster as a homing beacon to move directly to Harry's current location no matter where he is, Small Favor. The fetches are drawn to a beacon as well, Proven Guilty. And is how the Grey Council gets to Chicken Pizza, Changes.

Mab can not only get to Harry wherever, she can shut down travel better than the TSA, as she shows in Cold Days. I suspect this last is because she is related to Hecate, the Goddess of crossroads and because she controls the Outer Gates, which may enable dimensional travel in some way.  But that is me being me.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on November 30, 2021, 04:10:29 PM
Unless River Shoulders shows Harry how to shapeshift into a bird and flies there lol
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: TrueMonk on November 30, 2021, 06:10:01 PM
That is a super convenient way to get about it, and it still allows for super cool in flight, maybe in water? Fight scenes. Perhaps also a bit of contemplation. I think it will be both, a quick route through the ways and shapeshift.

Harry was not wasting time going ro the island. He had to pick up the spear. Without it he could not have bound the titan and it was only with the spear the range was to the Lakeshore. To me it seems like often when people here think Harry is stupid it is because key parts of the story is ignored. At Least in this thread it has been two out of two times.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 30, 2021, 07:14:11 PM
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Mab can not only get to Harry wherever, she can shut down travel better than the TSA, as she shows in Cold Days. I suspect this last is because she is related to Hecate, the Goddess of crossroads and because she controls the Outer Gates, which may enable dimensional travel in some way.  But that is me being me.

What is interesting, she seems to have "popped" in in Cold Days, but at the beginning of Skin Game
she traveled by speed boat.  Only difference I can think of though it's Warden, in Cold Days Harry have all the information as to what that meant and the defenses of the island weren't fully engaged.  In Skin Game Harry had learned the ropes and the defenses were fully engaged, so no more popping in unless invited by Harry.  One has to wonder just how vulnerable the island really was before it got a Warden again?  Remember back in Small Favor, the Denarians were whooping it up with the Archive with in their grasp,  and apparently beyond the psych itching powder and pretending the prison wasn't there, there wasn't much Alfred could do about it alone.  Don't think that would be allowed to happen now.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on November 30, 2021, 08:15:30 PM
Harry summoned Mab in Cold Days. He used the circle Maeve and Aurora set up and spoke her name three times. That's all it takes if the being called wants to come.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 30, 2021, 08:59:04 PM
Entrances from the Nevernever exist wherever Jim needs them to exist.

Like mirrors, that from Proven Guilty.  From Harry's closet in the Knight's quarters, Cold Days. In the middle of the train station in Small Favor by both the Hobs and the Gruffs. The Gruffs apparently could use the Oak Cluster as a homing beacon to move directly to Harry's current location no matter where he is, Small Favor. The fetches are drawn to a beacon as well, Proven Guilty. And is how the Grey Council gets to Chicken Pizza, Changes.

Mab can not only get to Harry wherever, she can shut down travel better than the TSA, as she shows in Cold Days. I suspect this last is because she is related to Hecate, the Goddess of crossroads and because she controls the Outer Gates, which may enable dimensional travel in some way.  But that is me being me.

Jim of course can create whatever he likes, depending upon the amount of repeated questions he is willing to endure at Conventions.But the Jewel is a sonic screwdriver. In the older longer Doctor Who serials the sonic screwdriver was discontinued as it was too easy to use it to get the writers the Doctor out of a weekly plot hole. With the more modern faster paced revival this isn’t so much of an issue.

A journey through the NeverNever isn’t just a journey from A to B it’s a character or story development point, except for Changes where suddenly Harry acquired the Jewel and had to get from A to B rapidly without major character or plot development. Jim needed to speed up that part of the narrative.

Mab was able to shut down access from Winter to the Never Never and the mortal world to give Harry a head start. She didn’t shut down the Never Never to Chicago. She has control over her realm, no particular control over other parts of the Never Never. The are a lot of gods and deities associated with crossroads and doors.

Summoning depends upon whether the being summoned wants to answer that summons or not and whether that summons is strong enough to override that beings will. Mab wanted to go to Demonreach, going via the summoning circle on summons by the Warden means she didn’t have to fight the Demonreach defences to do it. She had an invitation. Still she took a risk, as Harry could have put her down then if he chose.

Use of a name gets attention, sometimes negative, which Harry is good at.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on November 30, 2021, 09:31:13 PM
Harry summoned Mab in Cold Days. He used the circle Maeve and Aurora set up and spoke her name three times. That's all it takes if the being called wants to come.

But Harry is the Warden, isn't he.. So that works, but he didn't summon her in Skin Game and she had to use a speed boat..

Quote
im of course can create whatever he likes, depending upon the amount of repeated questions he is willing to endure at Conventions.But the Jewel is a sonic screwdriver. In the older longer Doctor Who serials the sonic screwdriver was discontinued as it was too easy to use it to get the writers the Doctor out of a weekly plot hole. With the more modern faster paced revival this isn’t so much of an issue.

For my part I miss the sonic screwdriver, that was part of the fun and I never tired of it over the twenty years or more I've been watching the show..   But guess they want to get relevant, now both the Doctor and the Master are female.. ::)
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on November 30, 2021, 10:03:26 PM
Harry was not wasting time going ro the island. He had to pick up the spear. Without it he could not have bound the titan and it was only with the spear the range was to the Lakeshore. To me it seems like often when people here think Harry is stupid it is because key parts of the story is ignored. At Least in this thread it has been two out of two times.
Harry is a character, so him being stupid doesn't apply.

Just for the record Harry locks down Demonreach in Peace Talks, not before as far as I can tell.  Having the prison eat visitors is like planting a minefield around Leavenworth prison.

Mab is the only character besides Harry that's been inside the prison and Harry was mostly dead when she took him there. I don't think she was summoned and I don't think  Demonreach has a doorbell.

Mab was able to shut down access from Winter to the Never Never and the mortal world to give Harry a head start. She didn’t shut down the Never Never to Chicago. She has control over her realm, no particular control over other parts of the Never Never.
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“Indeed,” Sith said. “In fact, this is, for the time being, the only way in or out of Faerie.” I blinked several times. “You mean Winter?” “Faerie,” Sith stated. “All of it.” I choked. “Wait. You mean all of Faerie is on lockdown?”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 77). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on November 30, 2021, 11:03:56 PM
Mab rescued Harry in Changes from the Cold and Dark of Lake Michigan (her domain), and we know now that Demonreach has power up to the lakeshore so both would have known of the injury to their Knight/Warden Demonreach needed a Warden and was prepared to tolerate her, and with Harry unconscious Mab was under no threat.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 01, 2021, 02:41:23 AM
Is anyone a match for demon reach. Besides Uriel
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 01, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
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Just for the record Harry locks down Demonreach in Peace Talks, not before as far as I can tell.  Having the prison eat visitors is like planting a minefield around Leavenworth prison.

I think it is more about levels of security.. The island got by fine for many years without complete lock down, it just gave off vibs that kept most people away.  Secrecy is important, best way of drawing attention is being an island that no one can step foot on.. The island didn't want to draw attention.  What had just happened in Peace Talks was a good reason for total lock down, so Harry ordered it.
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Mab is the only character besides Harry that's been inside the prison and Harry was mostly dead when she took him there. I don't think she was summoned and I don't think  Demonreach has a doorbell.
No, but Alfred isn't stupid either, it was in it's best interest to save it's new keeper, and I doubt that Mab would have gotten beyond the most minimum security room in the place.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: toodeep on December 01, 2021, 07:56:03 PM
We've seen many things (mab, greymen, etc.) get summoned to demonreach, so we know that is possible.  Could Harry work out a means to communicate with Alfred at range and could he (Alfred) "summon" Harry?  The problem with that plan would of course be getting back off of Demonreach without someone to summon you back...

I think it might be possible to adapt the method Marcone used to teleport.  We saw him prepare some spots on the fly and then teleport between them.  It is possible that with a bunch more preparation you could make spots at a greater distance to teleport between.  But I don't like that idea because it does open a huge security gap in Demonreach's defenses.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 01, 2021, 08:28:01 PM
Can somebody summon Harry from the white cancel. Like can Carlos summon Harry then trap him or is that just if Harry's it gets too far gone as a winter night or something different that Mab might be hinting about
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 02, 2021, 02:24:30 AM
Summoning appears to work only from the NeverNever to the mortal world. A being in the Mortal World can avoid being summoned, otherwise we would have seen it used in the files previously.

The exception may be if the summoning is from outside the universe, as this is a way shown for Outsiders to get in and presumably for Harry to be summoned in Mirror Mirror to the Mirrorverse. Other Universes are also technically ‘outside’



Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 02, 2021, 05:04:37 AM
Summoning appears to work only from the NeverNever to the mortal world. A being in the Mortal World can avoid being summoned, otherwise we would have seen it used in the files previously.

The exception may be if the summoning is from outside the universe, as this is a way shown for Outsiders to get in and presumably for Harry to be summoned in Mirror Mirror to the Mirrorverse. Other Universes are also technically ‘outside’
Well, we do know from Blood Rites that Outsiders can be summoned, but if I remember correctly only by mortals. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 02, 2021, 09:15:05 AM
Certainly therefore in the mortal realm and not the Never Never,
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 02, 2021, 05:52:13 PM
Compelling a mortal to appear would break one of the laws of magic and it doesn't seem to matter where the Fae are. The law is about using magic to abrogate free will.  Which is what Molly does to her friends.  Harry summons Toot in the mortal realm.  If you have the true name you can compel the person you are trying to summon. How they get there is on them. Maybe they catch a train from Newark.  Jim lays it out in Storm Front and embellishes thereafter, as needed.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 03, 2021, 04:06:19 AM
I wonder if Demonreach can be summoned from the island
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 03, 2021, 05:05:18 AM
I wonder if Demonreach can be summoned from the island

Technically, yes, you could call when Harry called up Alfred to the shore of Chicago to pick up the Titian as summoning.  However Alfred did say that was the extent of it's range and Harry did hold the Spear of Destiny to goose up his power at the time.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 03, 2021, 08:31:08 AM
Demonreach is Genius loci, a spirit of the place so it will be tethered to a specific location in the mortal world, rather than the NeverNever. Harry summoned it with his Sanctum Invocation (he was fishing for Minnows and hooked Moby Dick) but he was on Demonreach when he did it.

In Ghost Story Demonreach is able to animate a statue in the cemetery but that is voluntary rather than forced through a Summons, and is more akin to a loa possessing a manikin, suggesting Demonreach couldn’t physically manifest that far from the island but only in spirit through an avatar.

I doubt therefore Harry can just summon Demonreach to the Castle with Alfred carrying the Spear or the other weapons.

However could Harry bring part of the island to the Castle? Using materials from Demonreach he should be able to build Little Demonreach and that should allow Harry to not only remotely monitor Demonreach and access it’s Intellectus, from the Castle but to Summon Alfred to Little Demonreach in the Castle as if Alfred were on Demonreach itself. If Alfred can be summoned he can take an entity down, or take Harry back with himself. Harry would then have to figure out getting back though.

If Mohammad cannot go to the Mountain, why not bring the Mountain to Mohammed? Or in this case the Island to Harry.

This is perhaps the most satisfying option, Little Chicago was not a dead end but practice for Little Demonreach. Bob has seen how Demonreach was built, which can be used in the construction of Little Demonreach. Harry has somewhere large enough and secure enough to make Little Demonreach with his ownership of the Castle. Harry will still need to go to Demonreach in person on occasion but less frequently, when it’s not an emergency and should be able to retrieve things and send other people and things there from the Castle.

Only the Warden would be able to use Little Demonreach in this fashion due to the Warden Bond and modelling the Island itself rather than the prison, providing a safeguard.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 03, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
Quote
In Ghost Story Demonreach is able to animate a statue in the cemetery but that is voluntary rather than forced through a Summons, and is more akin to a loa possessing a manikin, suggesting Demonreach couldn’t physically manifest that far from the island but only in spirit through an avatar.

Yeah, well, a couple of things about that, firstly an archangel was pulling the strings in Ghost Story.
Secondly Harry was in a deep coma at the time, it appears to us the reader and to Harry, himself that his soul was on walkabout, but what if it was all a vivid illusion set up by a certain archangel?
So either way, the conditions weren't normal for Alfred, considering the power of Uriel and Mab, I think we need more evidence before basing what Alfred can do under normal circumstances.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 03, 2021, 01:10:02 PM
Actually Demonreach range was for the Titan. Lesser beings he should have greater range
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 03, 2021, 03:15:04 PM
Actually Demonreach range was for the Titan. Lesser beings he should have greater range

Titian or rouge pixie, I think Alfred's range is his range, I don't remember him saying what he was gathering up determined that. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 03, 2021, 04:38:34 PM
He asked Alfred range for Ethniu implied the shoreline
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 03, 2021, 04:48:03 PM
And Alfred states he is a prison guard and not a cop. On home turf he is unbeatable, but  only on his home turf or effectively in sight of it. He can’t get into the City proper, that would make it too easy for Harry.

Harry has got to either summon them to Demonreach, or catch and subdue and take them to the lakeshore. I am betting that the Crown of Thorns are god level Thorn Manacles, depowering even the mortal avatar of the White God. It’s going to be getting it on the bad guys head which will be the fun part for Harry.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 04, 2021, 02:31:24 AM
CT that's sounds pretty stupid but hey crown of thorn manacles lol right!
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 07, 2021, 12:48:32 PM
Well demonreach predates the white Council. So I don't see how many of them know about leaving reach. Just like not many know about the outer Gates. Again that's the case of old white counsel men hoarding knowledge...
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 07, 2021, 01:54:47 PM
Well demonreach predates the white Council. So I don't see how many of them know about leaving reach. Just like not many know about the outer Gates. Again that's the case of old white counsel men hoarding knowledge...

  Or willfully ignorant, the wizard equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears and singing "la,la,la, can't hear you..."  Then we have Rashid, who is echoing the cry from a "Few Good Men," "The truth? the Senior Council can't handle the truth!"  And it looks like he might be right.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on December 07, 2021, 10:28:05 PM
Most of the White Council are ignorant of a lot of things. I'm sure they "know" about the major supernatural monsters of their region but I doubt more than the Senior Council and some of the Wardens know the real deal with Outsiders. Look how long it took Harry, who lives on the edge, to learn those things. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 07, 2021, 10:36:47 PM
Well demonreach predates the white Council. So I don't see how many of them know about leaving reach. Just like not many know about the outer Gates. Again that's the case of old white counsel men hoarding knowledge...
Since the Black Council shares membership with the White Council the are certainly people who know.  The Black Council has attacked the Gates and Demonreach with the help of the Outsiders.

Since we're talking about Demonreach, have you considered as long as the prison exists and needs a human Warden, that Ivy can't win the Oblivion War?

The same is true for the Outer Gates. To win she must wipe the memory of  both the Outer Gates and Demonreach from the minds of Mankind.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 07, 2021, 10:54:04 PM

Since we're talking about Demonreach, have you considered as long as the prison exists and needs a human Warden, that Ivy can't win the Oblivion War?


Why yes I had. I made that point a week or so ago. Harry is of course oblivious to that particular conflict. This may explain why she snubbed Harry, someone (probably Thomas or Lara, her agents) told her or recorded the fact that Harry was the Warden.

To be correct she needs to wipe the knowledge of those beings from mortal minds, not  of Demonreach or the Outer Gates themselves. Harry has of course been going through the roster of prisoners, making that much more difficult, oblivious as always, but HP Lovecraft and Frank Belknap long have a lot to answer for even vanilla mortals know about the Hound of Tindalos. Ivy is losing. Look at the impact of Cthulhu in popular culture. She having as much success as Mab had against Disney. Frozen anyone?

It’s bad enough Harry got between her and her surrogate father, but to find Harry has also got involved in an existential crisis undermining her whole existence and purpose is the cherry on the cake. No wonder she cut him dead. And he clearly has no knowledge why.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 08, 2021, 12:39:54 AM
If the Archive is snubbing Harry then it's only because in Changes he f**ked her over too.

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 08, 2021, 12:52:53 AM
What's all this manufactured strife between Harry and Ivy... it could be as simple as PMS or maybe she has a crush on
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 08, 2021, 03:43:15 AM
The thought is that Ivy's only friend should have talked to her.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 08, 2021, 04:19:16 AM
The thought is that Ivy's only friend should have talked to her.

Yes, but the truth is, the Archive has no friends, and as a result neither does Ivy.  It's that isolated exsistence that drove her mother to suicide.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 08, 2021, 12:50:12 PM
Talk to Ivy about what
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 08, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Talk to Ivy about what
The weather, cats, why he chose to use Kincaid in such a way as to drive a wedge between him and Ivy.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: vincentric on December 08, 2021, 04:27:50 PM
Uhh, he kinda expected to be dead. He wasn't in his right mind.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 08, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
Uhh, he kinda expected to be dead. He wasn't in his right mind.

  No, he wasn't, he was suicidal, suicidal people usually do not look beyond or cannot look beyond their own pain or predicament. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 08, 2021, 11:17:50 PM
Suicide is complex and Jim cheated.  It made good drama but it leaves the impression that Jim has never had to deal with the aftermath of one.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 09, 2021, 01:39:19 AM
It. Was. For. His. Daughter. He truly believed he was going to be a monster.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 09, 2021, 05:29:32 AM
It. Was. For. His. Daughter. He truly believed he was going to be a monster.
I understand the story quite well.  And I've read Ghost Story. Answer me this, what is Ghost Story about?
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 09, 2021, 11:57:22 AM
I understand the story quite well.  And I've read Ghost Story. Answer me this, what is Ghost Story about?

 I think it was to teach Harry that even if he is the Winter Knight, that doesn't make him a monster, unless he lets himself become a monster.  He isn't Mab's plaything.  Yes, it was an interesting story, if Changes ended an era for Harry as Chicago's Wizard Private Eye, Ghost Story set into motion many of the plot threads for the rest of the series.
Quote
Suicide is complex and Jim cheated.  It made good drama but it leaves the impression that Jim has never had to deal with the aftermath of one.

No, he treated it as a plot device, no different than most fiction writers..  What he got right I think is the fact that most suicidal people cannot see beyond their own pain, which for them has become more than they can tolerate.  Suicidal people either don't think of the pain their death will cause those left behind or in their sick mental state think that their death will benefit those left behind. That is the essence and simplistic view of it, I know this from experience.. When I think of my son,
I think if he could come back like Harry, he say to me,"Gee Mom, I didn't know that this would hurt you so much."
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 10, 2021, 03:49:10 AM
I think it showed how important Harry truly is that Mab would risk herself and Demonreacheach to save Harry
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 10, 2021, 04:19:16 AM
I think it showed how important Harry truly is that Mab would risk herself and Demonreacheach to save Harry

I agree, she isn't one to do something out of the kindness of her heart.  I can see her saving him to get her proper revenge later at her convenience, which she could have done apparently, as in heal him fairly rapidly.  However she was overruled by Uriel, who wanted to teach Harry some important lessons.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 10, 2021, 06:50:17 PM
Harry could have used Rashid's Way to leave if he really wanted to. He stayed on Demonreach to suppress the headaches.

He did, but when Mab came to take him off the island in Skin Game, she used a speed boat.  She could have used the Way that Rashid used and brought Harry back that way, but she didn't. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 10, 2021, 07:22:40 PM
It may be there is only a very, very, specific part of the island that is at all accessible via the Never Never and Mab doesn’t trust him with that info, or has another reason not to use it.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 10, 2021, 09:48:23 PM
It may be there is only a very, very, specific part of the island that is at all accessible via the Never Never and Mab doesn’t trust him with that info, or has another reason not to use it.

 Then she doesn't know about his mother's jewel, if I remember correctly it's a map of all the Ways in the Nevernever.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on December 10, 2021, 10:13:21 PM
Then she doesn't know about his mother's jewel, if I remember correctly it's a map of all the Ways in the Nevernever.
It is a map of the ways his mother knew, not all the ways.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 10, 2021, 11:25:31 PM
Yes she travelled extensively, more so than any other wizard than the Gatekeeper, but she probably  never travelled to Demonreach, never had to probably never even heard of it.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 10, 2021, 11:54:53 PM
Just because one wizard knows a way doesn't mean Mab knows the way. And does it say Demonreach goes to Fairy or does it go to the Never Never. Mab "controls" Fairy not never never. She could be limited outside of fairy in the Never Never
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 11, 2021, 12:19:22 AM
Just because one wizard knows a way doesn't mean Mab knows the way. And does it say Demonreach goes to Fairy or does it go to the Never Never. Mab "controls" Fairy not never never. She could be limited outside of fairy in the Never Never

Do you really think that Mab doesn't know all the Ways in the Nevernever?  If she doesn't, she has stooges who do, don't underestimate Mab.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 11, 2021, 12:49:47 AM
So exactly how big do you think is never never is LOL I'm quite certain Mab doesn't know a fraction of all the ways of the Never Never. Fairy is huge and it's supposed to be a grain of sand in size compared the Never Never
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 11, 2021, 04:16:32 AM
Do you really think that Mab doesn't know all the Ways in the Nevernever?  If she doesn't, she has stooges who do, don't underestimate Mab.

Mab likely knows all the ways in the Never Never for Faerie, summer, Winter, Wylde, to the mortal world BUT the Never Never is far more than just Faerie, which is supposed to be the closest part to the mortal realm. Demonreach could for example back onto Tartarus in Hades domain, which would make a nice parallel for Marcone’s Bank backing onto Hades Vault, given the ongoing rivalry (at least on Marcone’s part. I think Marcone would be genuinely shocked at how little Harry thinks or worries about him compared to how much Marcone worries about Harry.)

Hades is way above Mab’s weight class, going through his domain even with consent is a terrible risk, becoming beholden to a greater power, and having to trade a major favour to do it. Mab’s discharging favours rather than giving them out, basically you would have to do a Butters to earn one these days.

Hades wanted to audition Harry to move the weapons into the mortal realm (the White God obviously has forbidden a being at his power level from going to the mortal world, and can enforce it.) Mab provided Harry, her vassal to do it. Favour earned from Hades.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 11, 2021, 12:47:19 PM


  While all of that might be true, if Mab wants the information, she could get it.  Perhaps she didn't use the way, because she didn't want Harry to know about it, or it didn't serve her purpose. 
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on December 11, 2021, 12:54:20 PM

  While all of that might be true, if Mab wants the information, she could get it.  Perhaps she didn't use the way, because she didn't want Harry to know about it, or it didn't serve her purpose.
It is also important that she arrives in style and she did exactly that.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 11, 2021, 02:33:42 PM
Yeah, she is all about making an entrance, to cause awe, to cause wonder, to cause beguilement, or just plain cause Harry to crap his pants. All of those are just as good to her.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 11, 2021, 05:00:36 PM
So exactly how big do you think is never never is LOL I'm quite certain Mab doesn't know a fraction of all the ways of the Never Never. Fairy is huge and it's supposed to be a grain of sand in size compared the Never Never
Don't conflate the size of the Nevernever with knowledge of the ways. Mab may know all the ways, even if she can't use them.  She also knows how to manipulate them. For instance she knew where Hades realm was and she manipulated reality to connect Marcone's vault and Hades realm.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 11, 2021, 05:25:24 PM
Again Hades wanted to audition the Winter Knight as a possible mortal custodian of the artefacts, so a link was made both by circumstance and design, Harry had to break in to maintain the integrity of the link, an invite would undermine it.

Mab isn’t an Intellectus, so she does not have a comprehensive knowledge of the ways. There are realms in the NeverNever shut to her, those of more powerful gods content to dwell in their own domains like Hades, some friendly, some not, and it depends upon what information they deign to give her.

Remember Mab’s power level through her mantel appears to have been deliberately set so that she is as powerful as she can be to be able to manifest almost full time in the mortal world without breaking reality too much, (except for the weather) even the addition of the Summer Knights power via the Stone Table to her Mantle is enough to cause an ice age. Her power level is too low for a general intellectus, like the Mothers or Uriel.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: morriswalters on December 11, 2021, 09:35:17 PM
I'm simply saying that she understands the nature of the connection represented by the ways.  How they are made and unmade.  She may have some control. Butcher is deliberately vague.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 12, 2021, 12:33:55 AM
Every practitioner has an understanding of the ways to some degree or other, Margaret and the Gatekeeper superior among Wizards. Doubtless there are some wizards who have so little they have to be shown and can really only use the well known and well established ways, others can interpolate where a previously unknown way will come out in the Never Never.

Mab was at one point a mortal practitioner, she became more powerful, not necessarily more “knowing” of the ways, and she was able to use other means of travel such as teleportation surpassing them.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Mira on December 12, 2021, 03:02:41 AM
Every practitioner has an understanding of the ways to some degree or other, Margaret and the Gatekeeper superior among Wizards. Doubtless there are some wizards who have so little they have to be shown and can really only use the well known and well established ways, others can interpolate where a previously unknown way will come out in the Never Never.

Mab was at one point a mortal practitioner, she became more powerful, not necessarily more “knowing” of the ways, and she was able to use other means of travel such as teleportation surpassing them.

Some knowledge isn't the same as knowing. Rashid had been at it for hundreds of years so he knows the Ways pretty well.  Margaret explored them and I bet had some help from Rashid as well, to map them so her son when the time came could use them as he did in Changes.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 12, 2021, 10:58:05 AM
It’s knowledge and intuition as to where a way will come out, it’s one thing to have a map, it’s quite another to be cartographer.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 12, 2021, 09:07:40 PM
Enter Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden LeFey
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 12, 2021, 10:55:56 PM
Le Fay was an assumed name, it’s the real McCoy.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 13, 2021, 01:12:35 AM
There's only one McCoy and he carries a big stick. Harry LeFey it is
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 14, 2021, 02:04:33 AM
I wonder if Krampus is in Demonreach LOL like to see Odin versus Krampus
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 14, 2021, 01:55:10 PM
Krampus would I think have issues with thresholds, Kringle has a dispensation from the White God, given at his annual St Nicholas day lunch with Uriel (who ALWAYS orders the Angel food cake, with Sunny Delight as his beverage).

Krampusnacht is supposed to be 5th December the eve of the feast of St Nicholas which is why we never saw Krampus during Christmas Eve or The Good People. He had his day a couple of weeks before.

Given the fact we never see Kringle and Krampus together, and that Odin has assumed many, many forms it isn’t impossible that Odin is in fact Krampus, a sort of Jekyll and Hyde arrangement. Kringles membership of the Wild Hunt would kind of support it, it’s more of a Krampus like behaviour than a Kringle.

Suppose the original Mantle was Kringle and Krampus BUT belief in the former enhanced that part of the Mantle changing its nature whilst the Krampus element dwindled but could never be eliminated. Krampus would be at his strongest on the 5th December and Kringle his weakest.Kringle becomes his strongest on the 6th December when Krampus gets chained down by Uriel, and Uriel gives Kringle his pass, making sure Kringle is dominant within the Mantle. A bit like the power duality between the Winter and Summer Queens. That would be consistent with the mythology.

If so Krampus isn’t in Demonreach and a battle between the two unlikely, but a story set on the 5th and 6th December featuring Kringle/Krampus and Uriel would be fascinating.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on December 14, 2021, 07:17:43 PM
https://www.jim-butcher.com/the-good-people

Molly and her crew had no problems with thresholds because they are fairies and they bring presents and behave like good guests.

Just like Cat Sith explained in Cold Days. Kringle has no problems with threshold because who he is and what he does.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 15, 2021, 12:37:21 AM
It was already established that they could go where they want as long as they don't got ill intent
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 17, 2021, 01:55:56 PM
Wonder if Demonreach would go to the Never Never Close to the other Gates
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 21, 2021, 02:38:17 AM
Demonreach god level badass on the island? Exactly anyone above him?
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: TrueMonk on December 21, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
I am thinking that the outer gates are keeping something bad out and Demonreach is keeping something in, and as a result they would not be close.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on December 21, 2021, 08:38:47 AM
I am thinking that the outer gates are keeping something bad out and Demonreach is keeping something in, and as a result they would not be close.
Or extremely close. That kind of logic is flexible.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 21, 2021, 03:49:02 PM
Well of course they're keeping really bad out and really bad in LOL

But I'm just curious how bad from the outer Gates. And I'm curious if we're going to get some type of a description

Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Arjan on December 21, 2021, 05:41:56 PM
They both keep a boundary between us and them. The outside is a sort of prison as well. Or banishment.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on December 21, 2021, 08:01:10 PM
But it isn’t part of the Multiverse, so cannot link to our mortal world in the same way as the Never Never. Outsiders have to be summoned by a mortal, or make it through the Gates.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 21, 2021, 08:36:03 PM
Not our reality. Maybe we should examine this word.
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 21, 2021, 08:40:25 PM
Reality

Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary. The term is also used to refer to the ontological status of things, indicating their existence. In physical terms, reality is the totality of a system, known and unknown
Title: Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
Post by: b4utoo on December 21, 2021, 08:43:54 PM
So never never is known. So can't be in there.

So do gates/wall surround a reality rip.

And is the Gate made of some kind of Angel power construction.