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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: LostInTime on October 14, 2021, 01:51:58 PM
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Mab chose Molly.
In the grip of insomnia last night I went back and re-read the chapter in Peace Talks where Harry summons Molly and this bit jumped out at me. It was easy to miss given all the bombshells with the summoning and Molly's tenuous mortal status.
…Molly probably wasn’t going to forgive herself for assisting in what had amounted to a very complicated near suicide. There’d been a lot of fallout, on every conceivable scale. Very little of it had been Molly’s fault, directly or otherwise, but she’d been a mover on that scene, and she probably felt at least as bad as I did about it, and I’d been way more in the middle of things.
And, being a wizard, I felt guilty as hell for walking her into that. I hadn’t had much choice, if I wanted to save my daughter’s life, but thought the cost was worthy, it still had to be paid-and Molly had laid down cold, hard cash.
So cold and so hard that Mab had wound up choosing her to be the new Winter Lady, in fact.
Suddenly I wondered if maybe I hadn’t been hard enough on myself. I mean, hell, at least when I’d become the Winter Knight, I’d made a choice. My back had been to a wall and my options had all sucked, but I’d at least sought out my bargain with Mab.
Molly hadn’t been consulted, and Mab’s policy on dissenting opinion was crystalline: Deal with it or die.
Of course, inveterate dissenters like myself, it created a pretty simple counterpolicy for when I was tired of Mab’s crap: Deal with it or kill me. Mab was a lot of things, but irrational wasn’t one of them, and as long as it was easier to put up with me than replace me, we had attained a state of balance. I imagined that Molly had come to similar arrangements…
There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.
Which means everything we’ve been told or shown regarding succession of the lady mantles is either wrong, incomplete, or the person telling us how it works has been lied to. Unreliable narrators is the rule instead of the exception in DF. Fae are information hoarders. People wearing fae mantles must behave as fae would, so they are obligated to hoard information and not release it unless you back them into a corner and ask them three times. They get a bit testy about that.
Now, that opens the door that Titania may have chosen Lily to be the first replacement Summer Lady. If the queen gets to choose from available vessels for fae power, Sarissa being chosen as the Summer Lady can only be viewed as revenge for Aurora’s death. After all, Mab did choose the person who caused Aurora’s death as her Winter Knight.
So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.
Mab could have chosen Murphy for the mantle. There’s no age requirement that we know of. Molly may have been technically virginal, but Lily certainly wasn’t since Slate had raped her. Murphy wasn’t a virgin, but she had never had a child, so she would have technically been allowable by the flawed rules we have been shown.
And let’s face it, veiled or not, there’s no way an apprentice wizard’s veils would have been good enough to conceal her from Mab, who in terms of age, experience, power and sneakiness is leagues above Molly in Cold Days.
So, when Maeve died, Mab had a choice and she chose Molly.
Mind. Blown.
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Molly may have been technically virginal, but Lily certainly wasn’t since Slate had raped her
I absolutely hate when someone says this. Virginity is a spiritual ideal of giving yourself to someone. Rape doesn't count. Very much so in a world we're metaphysical things are tangible.best not to ask me to clarify. I really shouldn't have to.
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I don't have the book available for reference, but in the conversation that Harry and Mab have, she as much as said that Molly's association with Harry is what put her on Mab's radar. She admitted that she was prepping molly as a fallback if something happened to Sarissa. Also according to Harry, the mantle had to go to someone with fae blood, so Murph would not be an option. I had long wondered why the mantle went directly to Sarissa and Molly. The summer lady mantle should have gone to Fix as established in summer knight (need reference). The winter mantle should have gone directly to Mab, but she easily could have redirected it to Molly herself.
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There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.
Actually she didn't, when it happens in Cold Days after the fact she tells Harry she would have preferred Molly to have been the Summer Lady, or rather said she felt she was more suited for that and that Sarissa would become the Winter Lady. But Maeve and the Mantles had other ideas. So Mab chose Molly to be a Lady, but not Winter Lady.
Now, that opens the door that Titania may have chosen Lily to be the first replacement Summer Lady. If the queen gets to choose from available vessels for fae power, Sarissa being chosen as the Summer Lady can only be viewed as revenge for Aurora’s death. After all, Mab did choose the person who caused Aurora’s death as her Winter Knight.
Titania didn't chose Lily, she was the nearest vessel when Aurora died, Lily wasn't at all prepared to be a Lady. Titania said she would help her, and not saying she didn't, but Titania was in deep mourning for some time over Aurora, all of this led to infested Maeve being able to lie to Lily and convince her of things that brought about her end and more.
So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.
Could have, but I think Molly was on the radar before that for her warlock attitudes.. Also back in Grave Peril I think it was Lea expresses interest in Michael's first child.
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Certainly Mab picked Molly to be Winter Lady. She had Lea prep her in Ghost Story. She could do that because she was Harry's apprentice. Molly couldn't say no since she was cut off from everybody else. She endured exactly the same kind of things Harry and Sarissa endured in the beginning of Cold Days.
The story arc that ended with Molly as Winter Lady and Harry as Winter Knight started in Grave Peril. In Death Masks Molly, who is way too young, gives love advice to Harry that will end with Susan pregnant. Jim had to have this in mind. In Proven Guilty Harry binds her to him as his apprentice to avoid a beheading. In Turn Coat he spends a lot of time telling Molly not to do exactly what he'll ask her to do in Changes. Where he then proceeds to throw her under the bus by taking the cowards way out. Since he left her under a sentence of death when he has himself killed, Mab sent Lea in to get her ready.
Even if she couldn't detect Molly Mab knew that she would be there. Harry had programmed Molly to be there. Mab tells both the reader and Harry in the denouement of Cold Days how he did it.“That is not what I have been doing,” I spat.
“Is it not?” Mab asked. “Have I misunderstood? First you captured her imagination and affection as an associate of her father’s. You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence. Then when she went to explore the Art, you elected not to interfere until such time as she found herself in dire straits—at which point your aid placed her deep within your obligation. You used that and her emotional attachment to you to plant and reap a follower who was talented, loyal, and in your debt. It was actually very well-done.”
I stood there with my mouth open for a second. “That . . . that isn’t . . . what I did.”
Mab leaned closer to me and said, “That is precisely what you did,” she said. “The only thing you did not do is admit to yourself that you were doing it. Which is why you never availed yourself of her charms. You told yourself lovely, idealistic lies, and you had a powerful, talented, loyal girl willing to give her life for yours who also had nowhere else to turn for help. As far as your career as a mentor goes, you grew into much the same image as DuMorne.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 510). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Certainly Mab picked Molly to be Winter Lady. She had Lea prep her in Ghost Story. She could do that because she was Harry's apprentice. Molly couldn't say no since she was cut off from everybody else. She endured exactly the same kind of things Harry and Sarissa endured in the beginning of Cold Days.
Not exactly, page 499 Cold Days
"Why?" I demanded. "Why did you do it to her?"
"It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve," Mab said. "Frankly, I would have considered her a better candidate for Summer."
"You still haven't told me why,"I said.
"I meant for Sarissa to take Maeve's place," Mab said. "But one does not place all one's hopes with any one place,person, or plan. Like chess, the superior player does nor plan to accomplish a single gambit, a particular entrapment. She establishes her pieces so that regardless of what her enemy does, she has forces ready to respond, to adapt, and to destroy,
Molly was made ready as a contingency." [b/]
Molly was a back up plan.
The story arc that ended with Molly as Winter Lady and Harry as Winter Knight started in Grave Peril. In Death Masks Molly, who is way too young, gives love advice to Harry that will end with Susan pregnant. Jim had to have this in mind. In Proven Guilty Harry binds her to him as his apprentice to avoid a beheading. In Turn Coat he spends a lot of time telling Molly not to do exactly what he'll ask her to do in Changes. Where he then proceeds to throw her under the bus by taking the cowards way out. Since he left her under a sentence of death when he has himself killed, Mab sent Lea in to get her ready.
I could go along with all of that except, Molly knew perfectly well why Harry asked her to wipe his memory. She knew of the suicide and why it was necessary for his mind to be wiped. She could have objected, she was of age, she isn't stupid, she understood and went along. Perhaps out of love for Harry, perhaps because she didn't want to see him as the slave of Mab as Winter Knight,either. She could rationalize, but that won't stop the human mind from feeling guilt after the fact which hers did. Now is that why she became the rag lady? Or is the simply rationalization because as we saw in Turn Coat, Molly didn't have any problem using her mental magical abilities if she thought she was right, even if the consequences of that would mean not just her head but Harry's head as well. Assisting a suicide isn't a simple matter... Also suicide isn't a simple matter, to call it a coward's way out is offensive.
“Is it not?” Mab asked. “Have I misunderstood? First you captured her imagination and affection as an associate of her father’s. You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence. Then when she went to explore the Art, you elected not to interfere until such time as she found herself in dire straits—at which point your aid placed her deep within your obligation. You used that and her emotional attachment to you to plant and reap a follower who was talented, loyal, and in your debt. It was actually very well-done.”
Mab is so good at twisting, that is why you don't bargain with the Fae...
1] Should Harry not have become friends with Michael?
2] Harry has never kept secret what he is, Molly has always known what he is, she also knows what her parents think of him. Did Harry make himself out as a hero to her? I really don't think so, Molly's own imagination filled in those blanks just as most pre-teen and teenage girls will do upon whom she has a crush.. Which usually is on someone unattainable and not that person's fault.
3] Harry had no clue she was exploring magic or had talent, he had no reason to. Until Proven Guilty Charity told him nothing of her own talent. Molly never told him she thought she had talent, nor did she openly demonstrate that talent.
4] Harry was able to keep her head on her shoulders.. Yes, it reaped him a talented follower in his debt.. So? I mean should he have allowed the Merlin to lop off her head? Did any other wizard step up to share the Doom with her? No, this is how Mab can be telling the absolute truth, but at the same time not because it is only half truths..
Mab leaned closer to me and said, “That is precisely what you did,” she said. “The only thing you did not do is admit to yourself that you were doing it. Which is why you never availed yourself of her charms. You told yourself lovely, idealistic lies, and you had a powerful, talented, loyal girl willing to give her life for yours who also had nowhere else to turn for help. As far as your career as a mentor goes, you grew into much the same image as DuMorne.”
Harry was right, that isn't what he did, but he didn't stand his ground, as always taking blame where there is little or none. Mab came at him from an emotional sore spot, comparing him to DuMorne...
Mab accuses him of being smug because he didn't take sexual advantage of her. Well, another word for it is, "professional.." Also from that soul gaze, he knew very well how easily it would have been to take advantage of her in that way.
Molly did have people to turn to for help, though not wizards she had two caring and intelligent
parents. Not at all like young Harry and DuMorne, Harry had Elaine, but she had been enthralled that morning which DuMorne then attempted to do to Harry.
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I know you disagree, but it is precisely how Jim wrote it. So the reader won't miss it he has Uriel say.
“I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Why was Michael's child worth less than Maggie? That was the choice Harry made. He made a promise to Molly and broke it. She was still under the doom and he left her swinging in the wind. And this has nothing to do with anything Molly did. He should never have asked her. His only saving grace was seven words.
Again another place where we disagree.2] Harry has never kept secret what he is, Molly has always known what he is, she also knows what her parents think of him. Did Harry make himself out as a hero to her? I really don't think so, Molly's own imagination filled in those blanks just as most pre-teen and teenage girls will do upon whom she has a crush.. Which usually is on someone unattainable and not that person's fault.
That Harry is oblivious makes not one whit of difference. Jim actually trolls you with this at the start of Proven Guilty. Harry's bitching about how warlocks are killed by the Wardens. Yet under his nose, the daughter of his best friend goes warlock and he misses it. Pot, kettle, black? I bet you Jim fell off his chair laughing when he wrote that.
Just for the record the Dresden Files is a noir-ish mystery. This isn't me hating on Harry. The protagonist is supposed to be flawed. He isn't Superman.
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I don't have the book available for reference, but in the conversation that Harry and Mab have, she as much as said that Molly's association with Harry is what put her on Mab's radar. She admitted that she was prepping molly as a fallback if something happened to Sarissa. Also according to Harry, the mantle had to go to someone with fae blood, so Murph would not be an option. I had long wondered why the mantle went directly to Sarissa and Molly. The summer lady mantle should have gone to Fix as established in summer knight (need reference). The winter mantle should have gone directly to Mab, but she easily could have redirected it to Molly herself.
Harry is an unreliable narrator. And the fae hoard knowledge. They aren't going to give it to you without you cornering them by asking them three times or making a bargain for knowledge with them.
In Summer Knight, Lily says that no mortal has ever received a fae mantle before. Mab and Titania were both mortal and they were both ladies. If fae blood is required to receive a mantle how did Molly get it? We know who their parents were and they were both human mortals.
It was the cold, logical decision in Changes that put Molly on Mab's radar. Or was it the injury that Molly did by trying to deprive Mab of her Knight? When you do a fae injury, they MUST balance the scales. They don't have a choice. Just as if you do them a favor or make a bargain with them, they MUST balance the scales.
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I absolutely hate when someone says this. Virginity is a spiritual ideal of giving yourself to someone. Rape doesn't count. Very much so in a world we're metaphysical things are tangible.best not to ask me to clarify. I really shouldn't have to.
Your position isn't supported by the books, yet.
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My point is, we don't know the mechanism and criteria for choosing the lady when the mantle opens up. There's been conjecture, but it's not knowing conjecture. The only people who know are the fae queens, and mothers. And that doesn't include the ladies. Because I get the feeling there's gaps in the intellectus the ladies are privy to. And even if they knew the whole story, neither of them could relate it to Harry.
Bob, like Harry, is not an unimpeachable source. Most of the time he's near enough to absolutely correct. But even back to Fool Moon, he listed all the werewolves, but missed Tara West's type of werewolf.
I think we're going to get the whole spiel on the fae courts, how they came to be and how they operate. But the only person who can tell that story is Mother Winter and we'll probably have to wait until the BAT to get that story.
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Your position isn't supported by the books, yet.
I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position. This by the flawed rules we have been shown.
is where YOUR position is not supported by the books, since it only fits based entirely on the idea what we've been shown is a false set of rules. The rules are the rules, Jim hasn't lied about them(and saying he has simply invalidates the point of listening to him explain Canon in HIS works) he hasn't shown us all of them, but where in he has they aren't flawed. Your understanding of them is, just as your position, especially after saying mine isn't, is flawed.
Now, if you really wanna argue this, go ahead. BUT, not applying a false negative to another's argument. Either break it down with something solid, proven facts, correlations, ect. OR, build up your own argument. But by the God's I'ma shred that point of contention to pieces in a way I haven't done on this forum in years..
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Why was Michael's child worth less than Maggie? That was the choice Harry made. He made a promise to Molly and broke it. She was still under the doom and he left her swinging in the wind. And this has nothing to do with anything Molly did. He should never have asked her. His only saving grace was seven words.
I don't think that Harry would say that she was. Do not discount the place Harry was in physically and emotionally, the choices he had were bad, but less bad was Winter Knight.. Harry only had Slate as an example of a Winter Knight and he didn't want to become Mab's hit man. He asked Molly because he was desperate, saw no other way, and had very little time. As I said, Molly was no longer some silly teenager, she'd been around the block, her choice, of her own free will, she assisted Harry's suicide. If he had seen or could see another way out of his dilemma he would have chosen it. I don't think either of them could think beyond that moment in Forthill's office when they made the decision.
That Harry is oblivious makes not one whit of difference. Jim actually trolls you with this at the start of Proven Guilty. Harry's bitching about how warlocks are killed by the Wardens. Yet under his nose, the daughter of his best friend goes warlock and he misses it. Pot, kettle, black? I bet you Jim fell off his chair laughing when he wrote that.
Really? Harry might feel that and blame himself, but a few points, it isn't like he was at the Carpenter house every day and saw Molly every day. Nothing is said about her hanging out at his place or his office. Neither Michael or Charity said anything, especially Charity who knew one of her kids could have talent because she did, but thought if she ignored it it would go away like her own talent. Ignoring her own near miss with unguided warlockhood, the last thing she wanted was to clue Harry in on all of this so he could be watching for the signs. Remember what Harry said about when his own talents awakened? Suddenly he could jump higher and farther than the other kids if I remember correctly. Yes, Harry is bitching about kids turning into warlocks and losing their heads over it. However, 1] He learns because of Molly that kids with talent aren't that easy to spot. 2] He steps up asks for a trial, steps up to the plate and saves her, then volunteers to take the Doom along side of her in spite of his short comings as a teacher.. So Jim trolling us? I don't think so.
ust for the record the Dresden Files is a noir-ish mystery. This isn't me hating on Harry. The protagonist is supposed to be flawed. He isn't Superman.
Exactly so lets not judge him like he is Superman or a moral paragon..
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My point is, we don't know the mechanism and criteria for choosing the lady when the mantle opens up.
We know enough. Molly was primed for the Mantle by being in close proximity to the Fey. Lily was primed the same way, by being in close contact with the Summer Knight. The only hard and fast rule is the Mantle has to go somewhere. That was Maeve's threat. Short of Jim writing a treatise on it, I don't expect greater clarity.
@Mira
Sure he was. And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor. In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter. It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.
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Sure he was. And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor. In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter. It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.
But not in the way you think I think. I think it was more like pointing out the irony of Harry's situation after his wondering how it happens that so many kids slip through. It highlights the tragedy of it all, because something that should be straight forward, really isn't, a life's lesson for the smugness of youth and inexperience... And yes, in wizard terms Harry is both young and inexperienced.
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I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position.
I'll break it down for you, Barney-style.
The fae lady mantles are supposed to go to the closest reflection of their court.
Lily was an undeclared changeling. Her mother was a Nixie, making her a mortal, technically. But Nixies are members of the Winter court. FLAW.
Lily said that no mortal has ever been given a fae queen mantle.
Mab confided in Harry that she was once mortal. FLAW. It's a double FLAW, since Mab and Titania are twin sisters per WOJ. Whoops! It's a quadruple FLAW, since Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's twin daughters by an Austrian composer in the 19th century, and Maeve was already the Winter Lady.
WOJ is that a person possessing a fae mantle can't acquire another one, since they would be 'full'. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/) On this page, all the way at the bottom.
Lily was the Summer Knight and acquired the Summer Lady mantle. FLAW.
In Summer Knight, Aurora just dies. Harry doesn't even find out until days later that Lily is now the Summer lady and Fix took up the Summer Knight.
In Cold Days there's a big dramatic sequence where the mantle coalesces into a big green bird-like figure and leaps from Lily's prostrate form into Sarissa. The same thing happens between Maeve and Molly, only the bird is blue. FLAW.
These are contradictions. We are being told one thing and being shown another. Until an errata sheet is published, there's no clarity. And, FWIW, Jim has said out front, that he WILL lie to us. Until and unless it's shown and explained in the books, it's not written in stone. And even then, comic book rules apply. Harry is a rule-breaker. See also: Law of Magic 1 and 5.
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I'll break it down for you, Barney-style.
citation
The fae lady mantles are supposed to go to the closest reflection of their court.
Lily was an undeclared changeling. Her mother was a Nixie, making her a mortal, technically. But Nixies are members of the Winter court. FLAW.
Like what, the same force in opposite directions? No where was it proclaimed winter will be winter and summer will be summer. This aligns perfectly with wild fae chosing base entirely on how they behaved
Lily said that no mortal has ever been given a fae queen mantle.
Mab confided in Harry that she was once mortal. FLAW. It's a double FLAW, since Mab and Titania are twin sisters per WOJ. Whoops! It's a quadruple FLAW, since Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's twin daughters by an Austrian composer in the 19th century, and Maeve was already the Winter Lady.
lily said this... Lily. The lady actively being lied to by a compromised winter lady and largely ignored by Titania. She was wrong. Period. Obviously... There's even a Woj stating lily was delusional in her thinking FYI
WOJ is that a person possessing a fae mantle can't acquire another one, since they would be 'full'. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/) On this page, all the way at the bottom.
already makes the addendum that the cup COULD be open. Changeling, potential immortal, not at all capped off on capacity.
Lily was the Summer Knight and acquired the Summer Lady mantle. FLAW.
In Summer Knight, Aurora just dies. Harry doesn't even find out until days later that Lily is now the Summer lady and Fix took up the Summer Knight.
In Cold Days there's a big dramatic sequence where the mantle coalesces into a big green bird-like figure and leaps from Lily's prostrate form into Sarissa. The same thing happens between Maeve and Molly, only the bird is blue. FLAW.
difference between NN area, where spirit IS body and reality where spirit bonds to body. The assumption is applying the same rules to both places, especially when one of those places was made specifically to kill immortals. And not just potentially kill, but unmake and redue the entire balance there.
These are contradictions. We are being told one thing and being shown another. Until an errata sheet is published, there's no clarity. And, FWIW, Jim has said out front, that he WILL lie to us. Until and unless it's shown and explained in the books, it's not written in stone. And even then, comic book rules apply. Harry is a rule-breaker. See also: Law of Magic 1 and 5.
that's the only lie he's ever told, and why am I listening to these wojs from someone who doesn't believe them? Contradictory.
Now let me explain how theory works. Someone comes up with a supposition, they look at examples and tests to come up with a theory based on what they find. It then becomes an acceptable theory. Someone disagrees, they then have to prove that theory false by showing there own theory with valid data in reply, otherwise the theory still stands.
Now, Loyd raped lily but she still qualifies for the lady position. Molly also qualifies because she's never actually had intercourse. I supposite that rape doesn't count as losing ones virginity because no choice was made, nothing was given. A BIG thing to the fae specifically, intentional exchange, debt, ect. Rape is a violation, a violent act of taking something by force. The fae can't do this, ergo they don't recognize this as a valid exchange of anything. Now, prove me wrong.
*These "flaws" people keep seeing, are where your supposed to look and figure out the answer( Woj he literally puts all the answers in the books but just leaves out the key bridging detail your supposed to figure out for yourself), seeing a problem and giving it the label of a problem is not looking for a solution. It will never find anything, it isn't a means to an end and I find it indicative of a lazy mindset.
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To me Mabs command that Harry should kill Molly if she does in battleground implies that mother winter would have some control over where the mantles went. It seems like an extremely risky option to have both the queen and lady mantle go to someone random. And I do not think that Mab could be reasonable certain who would be nearby when (if) Harry killed Molly.
In general it just seems like a very risky mechanic to have it entirely random. Although I guess that mother winter could always place her desired mother next to the current undesired mother and kill the undesired one.
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Or more simply, Jim is human, at those events he has to keep a lot at the top of his head. The Files is a long series, he written a lot of books aside from those. Everyone makes mistakes, even Jim, or he may give an answer but when he actually writes the next novel what he said didn't quite fit as he thought it would in the over all book or series, as the author/god of this series, he has the option of changing his mind.. ;)
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It really doesn't matter. If Molly is worse for the situation then the chaos of losing two Queens then enter chaos. Sometimes there aren't any good choices. In that sense this has nothing to do with how the Mantle moves.
In Summer Knight both Courts are on the field en masse, including the Queens. Harry is only semi conscious when the transfer happens, so we don't know how it was handled. It was the introduction of the colors. Lilly is portrayed as not the brightest crayon in the box, making her an unreliable narrator.
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It really doesn't matter. If Molly is worse for the situation then the chaos of losing two Queens then enter chaos. Sometimes there aren't any good choices. In that sense this has nothing to do with how the Mantle moves.
In Summer Knight both Courts are on the field en masse, including the Queens. Harry is only semi conscious when the transfer happens, so we don't know how it was handled. It was the introduction of the colors. Lilly is portrayed as not the brightest crayon in the box, making her an unreliable narrator.
And supposedly Mab had been grooming Maeve to be Lady from birth practically, look how that turned out. In that case preparation and suitability weren't everything.
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Or a really big one that is not topped off.
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While I'm not going to weigh in on whether rape cancels virginity we have a pretty convincing argument that it is not required to become a Lady. Unless one believes that Sarissa was a virgin at the time she took the mantle.
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Mab chose Molly.
In the grip of insomnia last night I went back and re-read the chapter in Peace Talks where Harry summons Molly and this bit jumped out at me. It was easy to miss given all the bombshells with the summoning and Molly's tenuous mortal status.
There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.
So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.
as you note, the fae are information hoarders (if they only could work ferromancy, they could fill disk arrays....)
Molly likely was watched somewhat before Harry even came in the picture. She is the daughter of a Knight of The Cross, his eldest child. He is one of the more powerful mortals out there in a sense. Then she manifests Talent, and becomes the apprentice to a very potent wizard. Surveillance goes up a notch. Then helps Harry attempt to slip his bargain with Mab - obeys her master, and does so with skill and competence. Her term as the Ragged Lady. Shows bravery and skill - she did well, without the raw power of Harry or Lea. Sure, Lea was fulfilling her pledge, watching over Molly... what in her pledge precludes her from filing progress reports with Mab?
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There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.
Actually she didn't, when it happens in Cold Days after the fact she tells Harry she would have preferred Molly to have been the Summer Lady, or rather said she felt she was more suited for that and that Sarissa would become the Winter Lady. But Maeve and the Mantles had other ideas. So Mab chose Molly to be a Lady, but not Winter Lady.Titania didn't chose Lily, she was the nearest vessel when Aurora died, Lily wasn't at all prepared to be a Lady. Titania said she would help her, and not saying she didn't, but Titania was in deep mourning for some time over Aurora, all of this led to infested Maeve being able to lie to Lily and convince her of things that brought about her end and more.
Could have, but I think Molly was on the radar before that for her warlock attitudes.. Also back in Grave Peril I think it was Lea expresses interest in Michael's first child.
I think Molly was Plan B, but Plan B is still a Plan.
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Harry is an unreliable narrator. And the fae hoard knowledge. They aren't going to give it to you without you cornering them by asking them three times or making a bargain for knowledge with them.
In Summer Knight, Lily says that no mortal has ever received a fae mantle before. Mab and Titania were both mortal and they were both ladies. If fae blood is required to receive a mantle how did Molly get it? We know who their parents were and they were both human mortals.
How much Fae blood do they need? Is this the old single drop rule? Maybe a grandmother or grandfather had been a changeling who chose humanity? For that matter, maybe you need the fae gene to be a wizard.... Charity passed it down to Molly, and Margaret Le Fay passed it to Harry in the X. The
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Bob, like Harry, is not an unimpeachable source. Most of the time he's near enough to absolutely correct. But even back to Fool Moon, he listed all the werewolves, but missed Tara West's type of werewolf.
Tera is not a werewolf. Werewolves are base human. Harry can't soulgaze her, IIRC - Tera is not human. She's a shapechanger, but a different species. Likely not really canis at all.
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While I'm not going to weigh in on whether rape cancels virginity we have a pretty convincing argument that it is not required to become a Lady. Unless one believes that Sarissa was a virgin at the time she took the mantle.
Could have been part of the deal with her mother.
There are differences between what we want words to mean, what we think words should mean, what the words mean for other people here, now, in the past and somewhere else.
The ideas Jim uses in his stories are old ideas and these ideas are not always nice.
We like to think marriage is between two persons with mutual consent. Other people have other ideas. The whole concept of virginity has a lot of negative bagage from the past.
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not …
The world were some of these tales come from is a world where a women must be a virgin to get married and where a women is forced to poverty and destitute if she gets spoiled and can only be saved from that fate by this rule. This was all very literal. There are wedding practices were the girl was/is checked for it and the bloody sheet is shown.
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The world were some of these tales come from is a world where a women must be a virgin to get married and where a women is forced to poverty and destitute if she gets spoiled and can only be saved from that fate by this rule. This was all very literal. There are wedding practices were the girl was/is checked for it and the bloody sheet is shown.
Yup, and some women got very clever about it too, like hiding a vile of blood under the pillow to spill on the sheets. To this day some aspect of the importance of virginity is practiced in all cultures and it can get very ugly for the one raped. Won't go further because me fears skating too
close to the thin ice of forbidden topics.. Lets just say there is plenty of material for Jim to draw upon for the sex rules for Ladies of the Fae Courts.
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Yup, and some women got very clever about it too, like hiding a vile of blood under the pillow to spill on the sheets. To this day some aspect of the importance of virginity is practiced in all cultures and it can get very ugly for the one raped. Won't go further because me fears skating too
close to the thin ice of forbidden topics.. Lets just say there is plenty of material for Jim to draw upon for the sex rules for Ladies of the Fae Courts.
Now there are virginity repair operations. There is something terribly wrong if a girl feels compelled to do this: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51189319
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Now there are virginity repair operations. There is something terribly wrong if a girl feels compelled to do this: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51189319
Indeed, especially when a girl's hymen can be broken in very innocent ways, like a hard fall on her butt for example. The girl is merely a victim of the beliefs of her family and the societal cultural/religious ones around her. You and I might call it arcane ignorance, but it's a traditional viewpoint that is very hard to reverse.
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Indeed, especially when a girl's hymen can be broken in very innocent ways, like a hard fall on her butt for example. The girl is merely a victim of the beliefs of her family and the societal cultural/religious ones around her. You and I might call it arcane ignorance, but it's a traditional viewpoint that is very hard to reverse.
But to go back to the Dresden files, this is the context of all the old stories about virginity. It can be highly idealised beyond recognition but scratch it a bit and it is there. I don’t think we should idealise and sugarcoat it. It is a denial of history.
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But to go back to the Dresden files, this is the context of all the old stories about virginity. It can be highly idealised beyond recognition but scratch it a bit and it is there. I don’t think we should idealise and sugarcoat it. It is a denial of history.
And I think that Jim is playing it that way as well, it is the tragedy of Maeve in a lot of ways, and may become one for Molly as well.
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You know, not to put a complete stop to the conversation, but I thought this whole debate was put to bed awhile ago.
The virginity aspect was a worthless argument because Sarrisa is a Lady now and she went out and lived a life, trying to be anything that she wanted to be. She knew of the chastity that the Lady has to endure. And if she knew that, she probably got busy with someone somewhere down the line. And, from Jim's own mouth, we know that Sarrisa and Fix are in a relationship. That woman in Fix's bed back in PG wasn't Lily.
As for Mab's intrest in Molly, Jim said that Mab didn't know anything about her until PG, when Fetch Prime brought her to Arctis Tor. The whole thing about Lea asking for Michael's first born in GP must mean that Lea knew about Molly so Mab must know about her is wrong. Mab learned about Molly in PG; saw who she was, who her parentage was, and what Harry would do for her. And with that knowledge, got a leverage on Harry.
And as for the fae blood, I can't say that she 100% doesn't have any. But, with the theory that Priscilla has, that being that Molly got a face full of wellspring magic in PG, or the fact that Molly completely shut herself down and away from everyone after Changes and Lea was the one to keep her alive, train her, teach her how to think about the world, that would change her at her core and open herself up to the mantle. Those points make more sense then trying to say/prove that Molly has Fae blood somewhere in her past.
Finally, Mab never said what she had planned for Molly. People have always assumed it was to be the Summer Lady, but she never said anything to that being the outcome. The only thing that makes it a possibility is that Mab said she thought Molly was more suited for Summer. But I have always believed that Mab had even more plans. I think she was going to use Molly as a pressure point/a bargaining chip against Harry. I also think she was going to use Molly as a weapon against HHWBs. Molly is a strong mind mage, one of the strongest we have seen, especially for her age. With the Council banning anything to deal with the mind, Molly's talent would go to waste. But under Mab's tutelage, maybe she could detect/fight the Walker's. That's been my theory. Mab isn't one to have one backup plan, so just to be a Lady doesn't fit with me.
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That same word of Jim about Fix and Molly tells us that they kept their relation well within the boundaries so the mantle would not take action.
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That same word of Jim about Fix and Molly tells us that they kept their relation well within the boundaries so the mantle would not take action.
indeed it specifically mentioned Fix having a chaste relationship with her. And as mentioned above, sarissa made a deal with mab, mab obviously wanted sarissa for a possible lady role, so of course she'd have a clause to make sure she'd remain a viable option.
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There is no story reason why Sarissa need be a 300 year old virgin. I've not liked the weird chastity belt Jim made Molly wear either. It makes her sex a weapon. Slate raped both Lily and Sarissa, or at least Jim leads you to believe, since Harry has shown that if the Mantle had control he would. By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.
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By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.
likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?
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Since Jim, I and I assume you all share a common lexicon it means quite a bit. Without that commonality it would make him unreadable, since words after all are agreements among people with shared lexicons.
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What the word means now for most people and what it meant in the past in the cultures where the concept was important is not open to any doubt.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VirginityTropes
Usually Wikipedia is quite reliable and you can find the attitudes of several cultures to this concept:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity
Of course it is quite possible that the mantle will make you a virgin, it is magical after after all. What is shown in the short story, in Lilly’s rant in the books and in Maeves behavior and complains is that the mantle forces you to behave like one and to keep it. Being a virgin is part of the story and so part of the power.
I think that because the concept has been so idealized in stories people want to rob it from its negative connotations but that is burying your head in the sand or it might be a conscious attempt to change the meaning of the word and make the concept harmless. At the moment it is not.
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likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?
Sadly while I agree with you on the purity definition of a virgin, many cultures still rely on physical evidence. The extreme is a girl or young woman is raped, and she is killed by her family,because she was raped, it is called an honor killing. I think you could say what Carlos suffered at the hands of the Winter Lady Mantle is an example of the physical celibacy as a vital component to what she is. Molly didn't chose to attack Carlos, on the contrary, she seemed as eager to have sex as he was. Sex and the hormones and impulses that control it seem to be very much part of the Fae Mantles, at least in the case of the Winter Court. The Winter Knight Mantle wants to rape and dominate everything that moves, while the Winter Lady Mantle goes in more for the virgin high priestess modal.
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Sadly while I agree with you on the purity definition of a virgin, many cultures still rely on physical evidence.
relied, not rely.(it's not current, not in the age of masterbation and sex toys) could you give me a specific example and not a Salem witch hunt environment? Cause I could say we Americans have a rich culture of witch burning and what not, but that doesn't cover a handful of crazies in isolated incidents. Saying it's a cultural thing is greatly exaggerated. Even in India the rape capital of the world, and the middle east, the family has a tendency to cut off the offenders member and stuff it down their throat proper style.
But it's not the origins of it no, it's the we're going to control you and how you behave and are viewed misogyny that gives rapist that entitled mindset.(a cursor look at panati's origins of all things would save me quite the hassle here quite frankly)
More importantly this conversation has strayed from anything in the books when I don't even particular wish to discuss it in the first place. 👿 Farther replies should be confined to context on how they relate to what's in the books, specifically. Or I can just tell everyone to go &+$# themselves as I'm very close to doing at this point.
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It is well documented in the present and in the past and the past is what we are interested in here. There are court ordered virginity tests in Iraq, google it.
The whole virginity thing is a misogynistic patriarchal tool to control young women and their sexuality so they can be traded with other families. Part of it is the fear of men, they have all the resources and they don’t want to spend them on other men’s children.
Because it is so old and ingrained in culture it is the stuff of myth and legend and because it is inevitable and everywhere it is reinterpreted, sanitized and dusted off but it is toxic.
The morals of old tales are not the morals of our time and place but it is not far away at all.
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It is well documented in the present and in the past and the past is what we are interested in here. There are court ordered virginity tests in Iraq, google it.
The whole virginity thing is a misogynistic patriarchal tool to control young women and their sexuality so they can be traded with other families. Part of it is the fear of men, they have all the resources and they don’t want to spend them on other men’s children.
Because it is so old and ingrained in culture it is the stuff of myth and legend and because it is inevitable and everywhere it is reinterpreted, sanitized and dusted off but it is toxic.
The morals of old tales are not the morals of our time and place but it is not far away at all.
Yes, and one can Google "honor killings" they still happen.. Officially the law may now be against it, but the cultural element in families still runs very deep, and yes, the law often looks the other way. There is a real reason why women get their hymen sewed back together, it isn't because she enjoys the pain on her wedding night. Simply put, no hymen, ergo not a virgin, her family, her husband's family all dishonored, least could happen to her is to become an outcast, the worst, she could die for
it.. And yes, as Arjan points out, it is still happening today, not as often perhaps, but in some cultures it does.
Molly's Mantle reacted violently to Carlos because her physical virginity was being compromised. Now eventually she might find a way around that or to control that as Harry did the sexual urges of the Winter Knight's Mantle, but at the time she was too new, and it sounds from the story that that was one aspect of being Winter Lady that Mab neglected to explain to her. Who knows what Mab's motives were, maybe thinking the best way to learn is the hard way... Or maybe she thought that Molly and Harry were already lovers and a little rough sex wouldn't really hurt either of them.. Or the Fae Courts are really old school as far as virginity goes. Forget Molly for a moment, one of the things that really affected Maeve's mental health and gave Nemesis an opening was her sexual frustration. That is why she surrounded herself with the likes of Ginny Greenteeth, even Slate, she became a voyeur, if she could not have sex herself, she'd live it through others, and it got more twisted as the centuries rolled on.
Foreshadowing of all of this happened at the end of Proven Guilty, the famous scene where Harry dumped a bucket of ice water over Molly's head and told her on no on certain terms that as long as she was his apprentice, no sex. At the time we all thought it was a rather mean way to keep their relationship professional, but now we know that act made her suitable to become Winter Lady. Just another thorn in Harry's hide, the consequences of doing what he thought was right at the time, backfiring.
Oh and one more thing, there is a sexual double standard in the Winter Court, while the Winter Lady is supposed to remain a virgin, her mantle reacts violently to a sexual encounter.. The Winter Knight sees women as an object to dominate, thus the violent almost overpowering urge to rape.. One more little point, sexually frustrated Maeve chose Slate to be the Winter Knight, if I remember correctly he was a rapist as well as a drug addict before he became Knight. No doubt Maeve got her jollies watching him sexually assault the female members of her Court in the Underground of Chicago.
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Molly's Mantle reacted violently to Carlos because her physical virginity was being compromised. Now eventually she might find a way around that or to control that as Harry did the sexual urges of the Winter Knight's Mantle, but at the time she was too new, and it sounds from the story that that was one aspect of being Winter Lady that Mab neglected to explain to her. Who knows what Mab's motives were, maybe thinking the best way to learn is the hard way...
Much like the way the Raiths don't tell Inari (or Barrowills Carol) about the Hunger that will kill their first sexual partner initiating them into full White Court vampirism.
Oh and one more thing, there is a sexual double standard in the Winter Court, while the Winter Lady is supposed to remain a virgin, her mantle reacts violently to a sexual encounter.. The Winter Knight sees women as an object to dominate, thus the violent almost overpowering urge to rape.
The Winter Lady's mantle amps up her libido as much as the Winter Knight's thereby making the double standard starker.
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I have trouble making sense of the exchanges between Sarissa and Harry early in CD when she admits that Mab is making her available as a sexual partner for Harry if virginity is required to be a Lady. Yes, Harry says there'd be an element of coercion involved in any sex they had since Mab put them in this position (as she is also trying to do with Harry and Lara at the end of BG). Also, Mab is clearly trying to establish an emotional bond between Harry and Sarissa. If that bond is established and they're sexually active then at some point one would have to imagine her Free Will would override Mab's putting them together. Unless Cat Sith would have appeared at that most delicate moment and figuratively poured ice water over the pair.
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I have trouble making sense of the exchanges between Sarissa and Harry early in CD when she admits that Mab is making her available as a sexual partner for Harry if virginity is required to be a Lady. Yes, Harry says there'd be an element of coercion involved in any sex they had since Mab put them in this position (as she is also trying to do with Harry and Lara at the end of BG). Also, Mab is clearly trying to establish an emotional bond between Harry and Sarissa. If that bond is established and they're sexually active then at some point one would have to imagine her Free Will would override Mab's putting them together. Unless Cat Sith would have appeared at that most delicate moment and figuratively poured ice water over the pair.
Maybe the hymen magically grows back when the Mantle ascends on the new Lady? Or it isn't about celibacy pre mantle but post mantle, either way that violent reaction to Carlos's love making wasn't Molly's choice.
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I didn't think that the Ladies had to remain celibate. I just thought they could not perform any acts that might result in pregnancy.
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I didn't think that the Ladies had to remain celibate. I just thought they could not perform any acts that might result in pregnancy.
Cold Case is pretty explicit about it.
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I have trouble making sense of the exchanges between Sarissa and Harry early in CD when she admits that Mab is making her available as a sexual partner for Harry if virginity is required to be a Lady.
Unless Mab was counting on Harry's Dresdensity, that by having Sarissa tell him that she was there to be available that Harry would ensure she stayed virginal. That seems Mab somehow.
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Unless Mab was counting on Harry's Dresdensity, that by having Sarissa tell him that she was there to be available that Harry would ensure she stayed virginal. That seems Mab somehow.
Yeah, I can see that, she knew that that would guarantee that Harry wouldn't touch Sarissa. That isn't to say that she hadn't had other sex partners in the course of her life as a vanilla human.
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