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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 29, 2021, 01:20:29 AM
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When Harry said because they took Maggie from him, Eb said "her too". It was almost like an afterthought to me like his hate for them was deeper than Maggie. It came before her.
Eb is over 300 years old, and Maggie was around 100 when Harry was born. So Eb went 200 years without other children? I was thinking it may have been his wife who was taken from him, but now I'm wondering if Eb had a wife, and children before meeting Maggie's mother, and that's why he kept her at arms length. He'd already lost one family, and when he had her, he raised her differently.
I think the way he talked about Harry and Maggie, and how Harry was putting a target on her back, and he was beyond livid about it. He was very very upset. Then his talk about the vampires reached the point of being over the top. Even when facing Outsiders he took the time to be upset about the vampires.. This has to be more than losing some friends to vampires. The only thing that makes sense is he had a family before Maggie, and her mother.
My theory is that Eb had a wife, and kids, and they were all slaughtered by vampires, maybe even turning them into vamps that Eb later destroyed.
What do you think? What do you think could have driven Eb to the point of murderous rage finding out Thomas was his grandchild? I can't think of anything else besides losing a wife, a child or more.
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Per the semi official timeline Maggie was about 160, give or take, when Harry was born. Spry wasn't she? Eb was born in 1700. Mom died in 1810. To be fair to Maggie, she spent a lot of time in deep faerie. This is just a guess but it's possible that the closer you get to the Gates the slower time passes. Which may be why Rashid can be 700 years old. I think Eb had a friend who was a White. Maybe Lara.
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I thought the "her too" was Maggie Sr and Maggie? Vampires stole two people that should have been in Harry's life.
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I thought the "her too" was Maggie Sr and Maggie? Vampires stole two people that should have been in Harry's life.
Eb said "Her too". So the vampires took more than Maggie Sr from Eb. I don't think he was speaking of little Maggie because he never lost her, she's still around.
Per the semi official timeline Maggie was about 160, give or take, when Harry was born. Spry wasn't she? Eb was born in 1700. Mom died in 1810. To be fair to Maggie, she spent a lot of time in deep faerie. This is just a guess but it's possible that the closer you get to the Gates the slower time passes. Which may be why Rashid can be 700 years old. I think Eb had a friend who was a White. Maybe Lara.
Even if Maggie was 200, that meant Eb went 100 years without any other children? I think that's probably unlikely. My guess is that he was much like Harry when he was younger and he probably had at least one child before the age of 40.
My opinion is that Eb growing up was idealistic and had a family, or at least started one. Then he became aware of the cold, harsh world that Harry is learning about. This is why Eb is so against Harry having Maggie. He knows the reality of being a wizard, especially a wizard with a reputation.
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Simon Pietrovich is also a candidate for another person that Eb lost. It meant enough to him that "Remember Archangel" was his battle cry in Changes.
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Simon Pietrovich is also a candidate for another person that Eb lost. It meant enough to him that "Remember Archangel" was his battle cry in Changes.
He would have killed Harry by accident (fake Harry in their duel) because he was so angry over it. I don't think anything explains his rage besides someone he loved deeply being taken from him. Someone more than a friend.
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Eb's exact words
"See? you know why. I hate them because I know them. Because they took someone from me."
"Mom?" I asked.
His jaw muscles tightened. "Her, too."
Ok so upon rereading this he obviously is talking about a single person (besides Maggie Sr). So not a wife and kids. I still think he lost a mother, father, brother, sister, wife, or another child before Maggie Sr. Best guess is a wife, or child.
Now "took" could have two different meanings. The first that comes to mind is they killed someone. I'm thinking it's worse though. I think they turned someone he loved. A fate worse than death.
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He would have killed Harry by accident (fake Harry in their duel) because he was so angry over it. I don't think anything explains his rage besides someone he loved deeply being taken from him. Someone more than a friend.
Eb is angry about vampires in general. I don't think you can pin Eb losing control at the end of PT directly to the mystery person he's referring to after they banish the cornerhounds.
In that conversation, Harry himself fits relatively well if you are generous with your definition of "took".
The old man sighed. When I looked back at him, his eyes were closed. His
cheeks seemed sunken. And there was a sense of desperate weariness to him
that I had never seen before. When he spoke, he didn’t open his eyes. “See?
You know why. I hate them because I know them. Because they took
someone from me.”
“Mom?” I asked.
His jaw muscles tightened. “Her, too. What you did to the Reds was a hell
of a thing, Hoss. But the part of me that knows them thinks it was only a
good beginning. God help me, some days I’m not sure I don’t agree.”
“The Red Court got the way they were by killing a human being. Every
one of them. The White Court is different. They’re born that way. And
they’re not all the same,” I said.
“Game they’ve played for a very long time, Hoss,” he said. “You’ll see it
for yourself. If you live long enough.”
Overall, I'm reluctant to go too far into the weeds about Eb's unknown relationships based on the WoJ that Eb's wife was just a person.
Do you have it planned out who Harry’s grandmother is? @6:05
Yes… Well she’s not alive any more.
Was she significant?
Well, she was a mortal. That was about it.
Editor’s note: There’s a 2011 WoJ Where Jim says if he remembers right, she died around 1810
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"Do you have it planned out who Harry’s grandmother is? @6:05
Yes… Well she’s not alive any more.
Was she significant?
Well, she was a mortal. That was about it."
1. Confirmed he has something planned for Harry's grandmother
2. She's either dead, or undead
3. She "was" mortal could be a play on words. I mean that means she either died or she is no longer mortal (turned for example).
Reading that makes me think even more strongly that something happened to his wife. Either she was killed, or she was turned. If there was no big deal, I think Jim would have just said something like "she past away from old age". Him having a plan for the character to me sounds like it's meaningful and she didn't just get old, and pass from natural causes.
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He would have killed Harry by accident (fake Harry in their duel) because he was so angry over it. I don't think anything explains his rage besides someone he loved deeply being taken from him. Someone more than a friend.
I agree, and Eb needs to come clean about what happened to Harry. Now we see where Harry gets his tendency to keep stuff to himself that should be shared.
Then again, if Eb truly is in the early stages of dementia, emotions can get magnified all out of proportion. That is one of the symptoms, stewing about if for a couple of hundred years without
venting doesn't help either. What speaks to the dementia angle is if Eb has really been that angry about it over the years, one wonders how he could have dinner with Margaret, Lord Raith, and Arrianna? Just to see his daughter? Maybe, but one cannot hide that kind of animosity. I suspect before he married Lara, Eb will tell Harry where the root of his hate comes from. Harry may have make a choice, Lara and his pledge to Mab, or his grandfather..
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"Do you have it planned out who Harry’s grandmother is? @6:05
Yes… Well she’s not alive any more.
Was she significant?
Well, she was a mortal. That was about it."
1. Confirmed he has something planned for Harry's grandmother
2. She's either dead, or undead
3. She "was" mortal could be a play on words. I mean that means she either died or she is no longer mortal (turned for example).
Reading that makes me think even more strongly that something happened to his wife. Either she was killed, or she was turned. If there was no big deal, I think Jim would have just said something like "she past away from old age". Him having a plan for the character to me sounds like it's meaningful and she didn't just get old, and pass from natural causes.
Kinda ignores the "That was about it" part, doesn't it?
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Kinda ignores the "That was about it" part, doesn't it?
Yeah, she could have been normal and nothing big came of her. I don't think that will be the case, but I could be totally wrong.
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I agree, and Eb needs to come clean about what happened to Harry. Now we see where Harry gets his tendency to keep stuff to himself that should be shared.
Then again, if Eb truly is in the early stages of dementia, emotions can get magnified all out of proportion. That is one of the symptoms, stewing about if for a couple of hundred years without
venting doesn't help either. What speaks to the dementia angle is if Eb has really been that angry about it over the years, one wonders how he could have dinner with Margaret, Lord Raith, and Arrianna? Just to see his daughter? Maybe, but one cannot hide that kind of animosity. I suspect before he married Lara, Eb will tell Harry where the root of his hate comes from. Harry may have make a choice, Lara and his pledge to Mab, or his grandfather..
For magic to work it requires a great deal of mental focus. If Eb has any form of dementia, he couldn't be throwing around magic that is well beyond Harry, (and he did so in the most recent book). He also was able to match Harry in a physical confrontation when they fought. I see absolutely no signs that Eb is fading either physically, or mentally. His prime may have been at like 150, but he's still way beyond Harry in magic, and is still physically very capable, more so than most vanilla 40 year olds.
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Coulda just been Maggie's mom?
Fyi, the closer to the gate the slower time moves, makes excellent sense just based on regular physics. A clock on a plane runs something like .00000451 faster than a clock on the surface of earth even though the time at each spot is perceived the same way. Can't remember who released it, but there is a very neat little video on YouTube explaining gravity doesn't need to exist for the effects of gravity to to be felt. It's all a space-time distortion, mass is the only variable. But, if you look at superpowerful beings, they actually distort gravity all by themselves. Time may run differently in certain NN domain's because it or the creature whose sanctum it is has greater metaphysical "mass" gathered, and intentionally slowing time in ones own domain a simple"flex" of energy composition. Instead of focusing energy into one spot(Al la avatar), you expand it, if that makes sense?
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For magic to work it requires a great deal of mental focus. If Eb has any form of dementia, he couldn't be throwing around magic that is well beyond Harry, (and he did so in the most recent book). He also was able to match Harry in a physical confrontation when they fought. I see absolutely no signs that Eb is fading either physically, or mentally. His prime may have been at like 150, but he's still way beyond Harry in magic, and is still physically very capable, more so than most vanilla 40 year olds.
Not if it was in it's earliest stages, or the result of say a mini stroke.. And that's the point Eb is so far beyond in skills it might be hard to tell especially if you've never seen him fight before, all out. Harry was able to fool him with his doppelganger, the Blackstaff should have been able to see through that. Emotional involvement could have something to do with it, but still. Also Eb's reaction, he knew he lost control, he of all people should never have done that.
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My take is that it's the White Court vampires he specifically loathes.
- He didn't seem particularly vehement when helping Harry go against Mavra.
- He could tolerate Arianna standing in the halls of Edinburgh without righteous outrage.
- He tried to force choke Lara to death on-sight in TC.
- He went insane in PT.
I'm sure he doesn't like any vampire, and would like to see them all dead. But it's the Wamps he seems to have specific loathing for.
And since they can't turn anyone, I'd guess that they either ate and killed someone he loved, or the seduced someone he loved.
I could easily see where he had a wife, mother to Margaret, who left him for a Wamp after she became a thrall. Then he watches as his daughter allies herself with one, and (unconsciously) knows she's sleeping with him. Then he watches his grandson befriend one and (apparently) start sleeping with another.
That would explain it to me.
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[quoteHe tried to force choke Lara to death on-sight in TC.][/quote]
Yet at some point in years past he had dinner with her father and his daughter.
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My take is that it's the White Court vampires he specifically loathes.
- He didn't seem particularly vehement when helping Harry go against Mavra.
- He could tolerate Arianna standing in the halls of Edinburgh without righteous outrage.
- He tried to force choke Lara to death on-sight in TC.
- He went insane in PT.
I'm sure he doesn't like any vampire, and would like to see them all dead. But it's the Wamps he seems to have specific loathing for.
And since they can't turn anyone, I'd guess that they either ate and killed someone he loved, or the seduced someone he loved.
I could easily see where he had a wife, mother to Margaret, who left him for a Wamp after she became a thrall. Then he watches as his daughter allies herself with one, and (unconsciously) knows she's sleeping with him. Then he watches his grandson befriend one and (apparently) start sleeping with another.
That would explain it to me.
I think his venom for the Whites is because of Maggie Sr. I believe she was friends with Lara, and that's how she got with Lord Raith. My opinion is that unlike Lord Raith, he was able to slay those responsible for the loss of another family member so he has been able to move past it more while he hasn't been able to with the White Court. Raith still lives, and Eb hasn't been able to do anything about it. Considering Eb killed a Dragon in 1908, that says a lot.
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Mavra.
Not sure why. Just a feeling.
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I think there is probably enough intel that the Senior Council might know Thomas is Eb's grandson. He is the ONLY son of the White King, that makes him significant. They'd try to look into him, why is he allowed to live. And his mom likely turns up. Eb may know, but not know Harry and Thomas know. Eb may even have been unaware, but when Thomas and Harry started to hang out, he looks Thomas up...
Here's a possibility - maybe Maggie is not the LAST person he lost to the Whamps. And she involved herself with them. Hardly totally innocent. Maybe they did take his wife.... and it was not Harry's grandmother. We spoke of his wife, and hear about Harry's grandmother... She died over 200 years ago. Could he have had a SECOND (or more?) wife in that time frame? Maybe even when Maggie left Raith, they came looking for her... went to his farm... and killed an innocent? And that the fresher wound?
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Eb does not know Thomas is his grandson until Harry tells him about it in PT. It is possible that someone else on the White Council knows they'd probably keep it secret until they could use it to influence or weaponize against EB.
Thomas is the only living son of Lord Raith. He's had others but got rid of them all.
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Narratively, I'd much prefer if Eb's first fiance was a sweet girl, and one day he found himself locked in a room with her by her family just as her eyes turned silver...
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Let's play connects the dots. The New Madrid Earthquake happens in 1811. Eb's wife dies at or near that date and Maggie is born. Slap me with a stupid stick but that seems to be pretty coincidental. And Northern Arkansas and New Madrid are in spitting distance and Eb maintains a residence there. Would you care to guess who the target might have been? Now consider that Jim has mentioned three historical events caused by Eb and that Eb took three shots at Raith. Just spitballing mind you. But it adds weight to the idea Raith can't be killed by magic.
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Let's play connects the dots. The New Madrid Earthquake happens in 1811. Eb's wife dies at or near that date and Maggie is born. Slap me with a stupid stick but that seems to be pretty coincidental. And Northern Arkansas and New Madrid are in spitting distance and Eb maintains a residence there. Would you care to guess who the target might have been? Now consider that Jim has mentioned three historical events caused by Eb and that Eb took three shots at Raith. Just spitballing mind you. But it adds weight to the idea Raith can't be killed by magic.
I think it is norther Missouri that Eb's farm is located in..
According to the National Geographic;
2:15 a.m. on December 16, 1811, residents of the frontier town of New Madrid, in what is now Missouri, were jolted from their beds by a violent earthquake. The ground heaved and pitched, hurling furniture, snapping trees and destroying barns and homesteads. The shaking rang church bells in Charleston, South Carolina, and toppled chimneys as far as Cincinnati, Ohio.
So very possible..
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Sorry. :-[ But from Kentucky they look much the same. ;)
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Sorry. :-[ But from Kentucky they look much the same. ;)
Yeah, well.. Not all Kentucky is blue grass horse country either.... ::)
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I think it is norther Missouri that Eb's farm is located in..
According to the National Geographic;
So very possible..
Ozarks are in southern part of Missouri and Northern part of Arkansas. They do extend into MO, OK, AR, and a small piece of Kansas.
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Let's play connects the dots. The New Madrid Earthquake happens in 1811. Eb's wife dies at or near that date and Maggie is born. Slap me with a stupid stick but that seems to be pretty coincidental. And Northern Arkansas and New Madrid are in spitting distance and Eb maintains a residence there. Would you care to guess who the target might have been? Now consider that Jim has mentioned three historical events caused by Eb and that Eb took three shots at Raith. Just spitballing mind you. But it adds weight to the idea Raith can't be killed by magic.
Would be interesting for sure if he went to those lengths to take out Raith. One of those events he's supposed to have killed a Dragon. The Tunguska Event.
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Ozarks are in southern part of Missouri and Northern part of Arkansas. They do extend into MO, OK, AR, and a small piece of Kansas.
Actually Eb's farm is in;
McCoy lives and has lived on a farm in Hog Hollow, Missouri, for at least a couple of centuries.[3] He keeps horses[6] and possibly sheep.[7]
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Actually Eb's farm is in;
It almost must be on, or near a mountain. Didn't Langtry say "go back to your mountain" to him?
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It almost must be on, or near a mountain. Didn't Langtry say "go back to your mountain" to him?
I don't remember that, but rereading the bit in Turn Coat when Harry explains he fought the Skinwalker not just to protect Molly and Morgan but to save Thomas... Eb goes on a tangent
against them, trust was his biggest issue, mainly he says, paraphrasing "you cannot trust a creature who in the end only sees you as food." So they may have took something he loved from him, but it sounds like betrayal was a huge part of it from that.
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It almost must be on, or near a mountain. Didn't Langtry say "go back to your mountain" to him?
Hog Hollow is a valley in Missouri, in the Ozark Mountains, if he's in the Ozarks, he's gotta to be on or close to one.