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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on August 26, 2021, 08:00:40 PM
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A thought...Harry is able to bind Ethniu in Battleground on the shores of Lake Michigan and he says that's the extent/limit of his reach. Alfred's power interacts with Harry's now giving his shield, energy, whatever a green tint. If the island and it's prisoners are the source of the ley line energy in the world, and Alfred is the island (hmmm...), shouldn't Harry be able to do a binding from anywhere the ley lines are regardless of his proximity to the island?
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A thought...Harry is able to bind Ethniu in Battleground on the shores of Lake Michigan and he says that's the extent/limit of his reach. Alfred's power interacts with Harry's now giving his shield, energy, whatever a green tint. If the island and it's prisoners are the source of the ley line energy in the world, and Alfred is the island (hmmm...), shouldn't Harry be able to do a binding from anywhere the ley lines are regardless of his proximity to the island?
He might, but he may not be ready to handle that kind power without doing great harm. Remember what Rashid told him about the ley lines and his warning to Harry about them in Turn Coat. First he tells Harry that the island is the source of the power for the ley line, though at that moment neither he nor Harry knew about the underground prison or it's contents. If the source of the power for the ley line is indeed the monsters, evil gods, etc with in the prison, it's source while powerful, is also very dark.
Then Rashid warns Harry about them; page 299
The Gatekeeper shook his head. May I offer you two bits of advice?"
I nodded.
"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well. You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
The other bit had nothing to do with the ley line, but the reason why Harry was there so I'm omitting it. Here is a thought, if Kemmler was the last Warden of Demonreach before Harry, did he try to tap into the dark power of the ley line and was altered and transformed into the evil Kemmler?
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Ooooooh! I like that reference. (And I'm in a reread cycle one away from TurnCoat). So, years away...it's technically been years (7 in book years, I think...more if you include actual time between release dates). I wonder how he'd handle it now. And I wonder how the Winter Knight mantle would react to the power? Dresden the Unstoppable!
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A thought...Harry is able to bind Ethniu in Battleground on the shores of Lake Michigan and he says that's the extent/limit of his reach. Alfred's power interacts with Harry's now giving his shield, energy, whatever a green tint. If the island and it's prisoners are the source of the ley line energy in the world, and Alfred is the island (hmmm...), shouldn't Harry be able to do a binding from anywhere the ley lines are regardless of his proximity to the island?
Could have voltage drop. Maybe Alfred can still have enough power for Ethnieu at the waterfront. Maybe he can cage Mab in Joliet. Lesser targets further out. Sort of like why your 100' extension cord is thicker than the 25'. Heavier gauge wire. Also why you do things at nexus points - because you want to be close to the point of power. Chichen Itza and Edinburgh are at noted nexuses.
And I think Demonreach is the source of THAT line. I think there are numerous lines.
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Ooooooh! I like that reference. (And I'm in a reread cycle one away from TurnCoat). So, years away...it's technically been years (7 in book years, I think...more if you include actual time between release dates). I wonder how he'd handle it now. And I wonder how the Winter Knight mantle would react to the power? Dresden the Unstoppable!
Yeah, well, I can understand that I am in the reread process myself, however I have a stack of other books I am reading through so a Dresden File reread book comes up about once a year, though I've read several of them several times. That passage happens to be one of my favorites because Rashid is one of my favorite characters. Another interesting bit in that book is the bit when Harry reads one of Eb's journal entries it's on page 379, it talks about how Harry has no clue as to what he has gotten himself into as far as the island goes. What's odd is, Eb says that Rashid says to warn Harry about the island would be pointless, yet didn't Rashid just do that very thing by telling Harry not to pull power from that ley line?
Eb also speaks of a higher power "arranging things" in spite of what they try to do. Eb talks about the "mantle" I assume of Warden of Demonreach, yet until the end of Ghost Story beginning of Cold Days Harry has no clue that he had just acquired a mantle, the Merlin wants him under surveillance and at that point anyway no one is willing to tell Harry what it is he had just done, or gotten himself into job wise.
However the more I think about it now, given the above passage, and the knowledge that Kemmler was the Warden of Demonreach before Harry, it explains what happens at the end of Battle Ground.
The Council isn't afraid of Harry because he is the Winter Knight, they are afraid because he is the Warden of Demonreach. That little demo of binding Ethniu and having her dragged away from a distance scared the hell out of them, they think he used the power of the island ley line to do that and could do even more if he took a mind to do it. Which no doubt he could, if he had to, now it all makes sense, at least to me. Which begs another question about the ley line, I'm thinking now that Alfred is the ley line.
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That little demo of binding Ethniu and having her dragged away from a distance scared the hell out of them, they think he used the power of the island ley line to do that and could do even more if he took a mind to do it.
Or even scarier - what if he did it WITHOUT using the line. He jailed a Titan without even using his last power-up. And now SHE is a weapon. His weapon.
Assume if Mai or LTW know Harry is Eb's grandson. They at least know he was under eb's observation. That day at Demonreach, Harry looked massively outgunned, and the best battle mage on the planet, the Blackstaff, advised not seeking a fight with him, saying he was a fair hand in a fight. Against 5 wardens and two other senior councils? Can they wonder what they may not know? What Eb may? Maybe LtW assumes Eb would tell him. Doubt Mai would assume he tells her everything.
For that matter, if Eb falls.. wonder what the Blackstaff could do if IT could tap the Demonreach ley line ?
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For that matter, if Eb falls.. wonder what the Blackstaff could do if IT could tap the Demonreach ley line ?
I think it could, but question then becomes would a binding have to be accepted by the island first or not? Like I believe Harry could use the Blackstaff to tap the ley line, but could someone else not a Warden of the island?
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I think it could, but question then becomes would a binding have to be accepted by the island first or not? Like I believe Harry could use the Blackstaff to tap the ley line, but could someone else not a Warden of the island?
of course. Remember the ley lines begin at the island, the extend at least through Chicago. Iirc the necromancers were using them. Harry, on the island would be able to subsidize his power draw is the main difference.
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of course. Remember the ley lines begin at the island, the extend at least through Chicago. Iirc the necromancers were using them. Harry, on the island would be able to subsidize his power draw is the main difference.
Didn't Nicodemus's crew use it to contain the Archive as well (post-kidnapping)? Luccio's map of leylines helped Harry figure out where to go looking, or something like that.
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I like the ley line connection. I said in a thread a while ago that there must be some way for Wardens to jail monsters because bringing them all to the Island is not reasonable. But bringing them to a nexis point is reasonable.
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I like the ley line connection. I said in a thread a while ago that there must be some way for Wardens to jail monsters because bringing them all to the Island is not reasonable. But bringing them to a nexis point is reasonable.
Perhaps, but not advisable because of the danger of the power itself. Remember in Peace Talks when Harry asked Alfred about his range for collecting Ethniu, he said it was the edge of the lake. Now possibly if he drew on the ley line power, it would have been much easier, fewer would have died etc., but that didn't happen. It wasn't even explored by Harry or suggested by Alfred, even though it was vital that Ethniu be locked up and as quickly as possible. So that says it either the power cannot be drawn upon by the Warden from anywhere or the consequences of doing that are too heavy.
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I like the ley line connection. I said in a thread a while ago that there must be some way for Wardens to jail monsters because bringing them all to the Island is not reasonable. But bringing them to a nexis point is reasonable.
On the Island, they get summoned there, right? Seems like a better idea that way. Ethniu was probably too big to properly summon (order of magnitude bigger than Titania, and she shattered Harry's circle in CD). Once they're there, Alfred can take them downstairs.
I don't think the Warden went out to collect monsters typically.
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On the Island, they get summoned there, right? Seems like a better idea that way. Ethniu was probably too big to properly summon (order of magnitude bigger than Titania, and she shattered Harry's circle in CD). Once they're there, Alfred can take them downstairs.
I don't think the Warden went out to collect monsters typically.
Maybe not, but they were gathered up and somehow bond and put in cells. Now it could be that the vast majority of them were taken and jailed in Merlin's time. He may have done it first, then built the prison around them.
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You haven't crossed the biggest hurdle for Merlin to put them in there. What was someone from medieval England doing building demon prisons in Chicago to put Gods and Monsters in? Even the Norse didn't get that far inland. And it was a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court not Harry.
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You haven't crossed the biggest hurdle for Merlin to put them in there. What was someone from medieval England doing building demon prisons in Chicago to put Gods and Monsters in? Even the Norse didn't get that far inland. And it was a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court not Harry.
The impression I got from Cold Days was that Merlin built the island long before Chicago was even thought of.. Would have to go back and reread that bit, but I seem to remember that when Merlin built it, it was done in multidimensional times including before the ice ages..
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The impression I got from Cold Days was that Merlin built the island long before Chicago was even thought of.. Would have to go back and reread that bit, but I seem to remember that when Merlin built it, it was done in multidimensional times including before the ice ages..
Five different times, but I don't believe we have any information on particular time periods.
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Five different times, but I don't believe we have any information on particular time periods.
five times at the same time. He interconnected through multiverse.. he literally built it in different realities and tied them together from the description.
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five times at the same time. He interconnected through multiverse.. he literally built it in different realities and tied them together from the description.
Yup, and that is part of the reason why it doesn't show up on maps. I do remember a reference to the ice ages and the island, but am not sure if it is in the books or it is a WOJ. The connection has to do with why Alfred has a limp if I remember correctly.
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Yup, and that is part of the reason why it doesn't show up on maps. I do remember a reference to the ice ages and the island, but am not sure if it is in the books or it is a WOJ. The connection has to do with why Alfred has a limp if I remember correctly.
The ice age glacier gave Alfred his limp, not the Gatekeeper. You might be thinking of that WoJ. The genus loci likely existed before the prison was constructed, so it's not clear that OG Merlin went that far back in time.
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The ice age glacier gave Alfred his limp, not the Gatekeeper. You might be thinking of that WoJ. The genus loci likely existed before the prison was constructed, so it's not clear that OG Merlin went that far back in time.
Could be, so if that is true then the island existed before Merlin decided to turn it into a prison for evil monsters and gods.
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Could be, so if that is true then the island existed before Merlin decided to turn it into a prison for evil monsters and gods.
Yep. Hard to build a prison when there’s nowhere to stand. ;D
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Yep. Hard to build a prison when there’s nowhere to stand. ;D
What is interesting though is Alfred. He says in Skin Game page 5 after Harry had just called him Alfred for the first time.
The enormous spirit considered that."I AM THE ISLAND."
"Well, yes,"I said, gathering myself to my feet. "It's spirit. Its genius loci"
" AND I AM ALSO SEPARATE FROM THE ISLAND. A VESSEL."
So what is Alfred trying to say? Either he doesn't understand what a genius loci is, or he is
something else. When he says he is a vessel, does he mean as I suspect that perhaps he is the well from which all that dark power emanates as a ley line?
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Ooooh. I like that one, Mira. If not a vessel for the leyline energy, then what?
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What is interesting though is Alfred. He says in Skin Game page 5 after Harry had just called him Alfred for the first time.
So what is Alfred trying to say? Either he doesn't understand what a genius loci is, or he is
something else. When he says he is a vessel, does he mean as I suspect that perhaps he is the well from which all that dark power emanates as a ley line?
Probably most genus loci are not all that self aware. They don't think in language as we know it. Before Harry mentions it, it doesn't occur to the genus loci that there is a distinction between itself and the prison.
Harry is doing for Alfred what he did for Bob and personifying him (likely giving out a sliver of free will in the process; Uriel was right about mortals throwing Names around).
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Probably most genus loci are not all that self aware. They don't think in language as we know it. Before Harry mentions it, it doesn't occur to the genus loci that there is a distinction between itself and the prison.
Harry is doing for Alfred what he did for Bob and personifying him (likely giving out a sliver of free will in the process; Uriel was right about mortals throwing Names around).
Alfred is more than a mere Genius Loci, he is an Intellectus..
Turn Coat page 278 Harry tells Morgan about his contact with Alfred and here is Morgan's response.
"Merciful God,"he said. "Intellectus."
I felt my eyebrows go up. "You're kidding."
Molly muttered a couple of candles to light so that we could see each other clearlyl
"Intell-whatsis?" she asked me.
"Intellectus," I said. "Um. It's a mode of existence for a very few rare and powerful
supernatural beings--angels have it. I'm willing to bet old Mother Winter and Mother Summer have it. For beings with intellectus, all reality exists in one piece, one place, one moment, and they can look at the whole thing. They don't seek or aquire knowledge. They just know things. They see the entire picture."
There is a hell of a lot more to it as Morgan goes on to explain to Molly, but it's getting late and I don't feel like copying another page and a half.
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Alfred is more than a mere Genius Loci, he is an Intellectus..
Turn Coat page 278 Harry tells Morgan about his contact with Alfred and here is Morgan's response.
There is a hell of a lot more to it as Morgan goes on to explain to Molly, but it's getting late and I don't feel like copying another page and a half.
Alfred has intellectus about the island, yes. The prison being built allowed him to ascend to a higher place than your typical genius loci.
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Perhaps, but not advisable because of the danger of the power itself. Remember in Peace Talks when Harry asked Alfred about his range for collecting Ethniu, he said it was the edge of the lake. Now possibly if he drew on the ley line power, it would have been much easier, fewer would have died etc., but that didn't happen. It wasn't even explored by Harry or suggested by Alfred, even though it was vital that Ethniu be locked up and as quickly as possible. So that says it either the power cannot be drawn upon by the Warden from anywhere or the consequences of doing that are too heavy.
Harry tapping the power might not have had much effect. Perhaps Alfred can and does use the power, and that was the limiting factor - he barely reaches the shore, at least at that power. You may lose strength further from your power sources, Lea tells Mouse he is far from his source of power, but Mouse "Lives with a wizard. I cheat"
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You haven't crossed the biggest hurdle for Merlin to put them in there. What was someone from medieval England doing building demon prisons in Chicago to put Gods and Monsters in? Even the Norse didn't get that far inland. And it was a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court not Harry.
Ericsson did not know about Ways. Merlin likely did. And once wizards knew of Ways.. only reasonable some of them would have explored the Ways. Human nature. Merlin wanted somewhere remote. He may have looked for a Genius Loci - I like Arith's idea the prison lifted him above most Loci and gave him intellectus. Maybe like Harry seems to lift Toot. Anyway, there is a Way to the island - when Harry invited the Senior Council, people were gating in on the far side. Plus the Gatekeeper knew one. If Merlin decided he needed a jail, and could time travel, why not go back and build it in the past, so it can be ready in his own day? If he needed one in 1200, why not go back to 500 and build it, so it is waiting. So a relatively sparsely populated area. An island in the middle of one of the largest lakes in the world. A genius Loci to develop into a jailer. Just fits.
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If Merlin Harry decided he needed a jail, and could time travel, why not go back and build it in the past, so it can be ready in his own day? If he needed one in 1200 2020, why not go back to 500Whenever and build it, so it is waiting. So a relatively sparsely populated area. An island in the middle of one of the largest lakes in the world. A genius Loci to develop into a jailer. Just fits.
This is the curse of time travel for authors and why they use it. If you want an effect it is easy to create a cause. I've taken the liberty of editing your prose.
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This is the curse of time travel for authors and why they use it. If you want an effect it is easy to create a cause. I've taken the liberty of editing your prose.
And why so many time travel stories fall flat, they are predictable.
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And why so many time travel stories fall flat, they are predictable.
Agreed. The time travel stories I tend to like best involve Stable Time Loops and "You've already changed the past" tropes, wherein the story happens exactly as it already did, and the time travel just reveals "Oh, that's what that thing was." TribeTwelve, a found footage Slenderman series I watched religiously during the height of the Slenderman Boom (I wasn't the target age demographic, but I'm a sucker for stories about unknowable Edritch Abominations) is one of a handful of amateur attempts at portraying such a Stable Time Loop. The instances of time travel are used for exposition, not to undo a mistake or something.
Like... I saw Infinity War, and was pretty annoyed at the predictable time travel. They just used it to solve problems and really, REALLY should have screwed up the timeline a whole lot. None of it made sense, and they didn't even try to explain how Thanos from several years previous could come forward in time and be killed without absolutely destroying the entire timeline. By doing that, the Snap never should (or COULD) have happened. I guess they just created an alternate timeline instead where it both happened and didn't happen or something, because it's not even mentioned.
Stuff like that is why I've always disliked multiverse explanations for time travel hijinks.
The best time travel stories I've ever consumed are really, really, really strange for me. The first is Steins;Gate, which has clear rules and limitations placed on it (I strongly recommend watching that particular anime if you haven't already; it's strange and intimate and surprisingly (and pleasantly) complicated, with a particularly good dub if you aren't a fan of subtitles). Anime isn't my favorite medium, but I really do like stories exactly like that.
The other is the Legacy of Kain video game series. It deals with time travel throughout the series, paradoxes, using paradoxes to advantage, eldritch abominations, fate, and vampires. Plus all of the characters are Hams who speak in Shakespearean dialogue in a way I've never seen anyone pull off in a video game. Pity the series hasn't gotten a new entry in like twenty years, because I really, really wanted more.
Anyway, I hope whatever time traveling we see in Dresden isn't a mere plot device to fix a mistake or something, but is done in such a way that makes sense, without violating the previous rules we've seen so far. For exposition, mostly.
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The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel. They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe. McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..
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I can't believe I had not made the connection between the fact that the Denarians used the Ley Line coming out of Demonreach to power the prison they made for Ivy. They used the magical "Hawking Radiation" from the prison to make another prison. Clever. We knew that Ivy was powerful, but now I think I should raise her up a bit. I had kind of put her on a level just above the Senior Council, now I wonder if she needs to be above the Winter/Summer Ladies.
Also, I'm wondering how scary the place on the Never Never side of Demonreach must be. Is it Biblical Hell? That would be the closest analogy, right? Both are the primary prisons of the damned in their respective planes.
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The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel. They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe. McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..
This is the story Jim should have used for the basis of Mirror Mirror. This is a classic what if story.Anyway, I hope whatever time traveling we see in Dresden isn't a mere plot device to fix a mistake or something, but is done in such a way that makes sense, without violating the previous rules we've seen so far. For exposition, mostly.
Given Cold Days the story appears to be a time loop, once through.
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This is a classic what if story.
Yeah, consider, what if Susan had never gone to that party?
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I can't believe I had not made the connection between the fact that the Denarians used the Ley Line coming out of Demonreach to power the prison they made for Ivy. They used the magical "Hawking Radiation" from the prison to make another prison. Clever. We knew that Ivy was powerful, but now I think I should raise her up a bit. I had kind of put her on a level just above the Senior Council, now I wonder if she needs to be above the Winter/Summer Ladies.
Also, I'm wondering how scary the place on the Never Never side of Demonreach must be. Is it Biblical Hell? That would be the closest analogy, right? Both are the primary prisons of the damned in their respective planes.
Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think. The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate. My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control. Not to mention the soft power of that much information.
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Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think. The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate. My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control. Not to mention the soft power of that much information.
But not in that point of time, Ivy was still a child, on one hand she could play the part of the cold Archive, but in many aspects in reality she was a very young child with a child's emotional needs.
Kincaid understood that, as did Harry, but at the same time they both were clueless as to how to meet those needs without screwing up the delicate balance between the Archive and it's host.
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The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel. They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe. McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..
Sorry, Trekkie nitpick - "City on the Edge of Forever"
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Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think. The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate. My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control. Not to mention the soft power of that much information.
In the battle of the aquarium, Ivy showed she can make a little go a long way. Cut off from a good flow, she still kicked butt. And Harry has said he was one of the 20 or 30 strongest, but he does not rate himself near that in battle. Luccio had said she didn't have Harry's power even in her old body (I think they were discussing powering a circle) and Ramirez says outright Harry is stronger than he is, and some say he might be able to take Harry. Hmmm.. how good is a Warden sword against a Soulfire construct?
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Sorry, Trekkie nitpick - "City on the Edge of Forever"
I knew that, sorry about that, very hard week.... :(
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In the battle of the aquarium, Ivy showed she can make a little go a long way. Cut off from a good flow, she still kicked butt. And Harry has said he was one of the 20 or 30 strongest, but he does not rate himself near that in battle. Luccio had said she didn't have Harry's power even in her old body (I think they were discussing powering a circle) and Ramirez says outright Harry is stronger than he is, and some say he might be able to take Harry. Hmmm.. how good is a Warden sword against a Soulfire construct?
It's actually a pretty cool way of balancing characters, and realistic I think. Raw horsepower is only one aspect of using magic. Mental focus, intent, imagination, belief, will, knowledge, experience, emotion, magical preference ect.
Carlos taking on Dresden has more to do with the type of magic he uses (a water mage is a natural counter to a fire mage), and it's difficult to use because it's delicate (so Harry isn't naturally gifted with it). Eb on the other hand is the most dangerous wizard in the world when it comes to magical duels as Jim has said that Eb can use all forms of magic, and counter any magic you try to use against him.
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It's actually a pretty cool way of balancing characters, and realistic I think. Raw horsepower is only one aspect of using magic. Mental focus, intent, imagination, belief, will, knowledge, experience, emotion, magical preference ect.
Carlos taking on Dresden has more to do with the type of magic he uses (a water mage is a natural counter to a fire mage), and it's difficult to use because it's delicate (so Harry isn't naturally gifted with it). Eb on the other hand is the most dangerous wizard in the world when it comes to magical duels as Jim has said that Eb can use all forms of magic, and counter any magic you try to use against him.
Yeah. The biggest difference between Harry and a senior council wizard at this point is the relative level of control. They're probably as powerful as he is (typically anyway; Eb is an outlier), but the power they can throw around is used much more efficiently. Ramirez is getting trained alongside other wizards while Harry has been going it mostly alone. It makes sense that Ramirez is developing that efficient touch faster than Harry.
(as an aside, I don't think Dresden magic typically works pokemon style where water beats fire)
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Yeah. The biggest difference between Harry and a senior council wizard at this point is the relative level of control. They're probably as powerful as he is (typically anyway; Eb is an outlier), but the power they can throw around is used much more efficiently. Ramirez is getting trained alongside other wizards while Harry has been going it mostly alone. It makes sense that Ramirez is developing that efficient touch faster than Harry.
(as an aside, I don't think Dresden magic typically works pokemon style where water beats fire)
I think we are all over rating "power" level or strength when it comes to someone going up against Harry. Almost always Harry makes the claim that he is fighting above his weight class, or this wizard or that wizard or some other being is way better or stronger that he is at some skill or other. Yet, most of the time, Harry comes out on top. Why is that? Harry also talks about how strong his will is, and that is key.. Out of stubbornness for lack of a better word to accept defeat in most cases, Harry fights until the end.. If there is a way around something, he will find a way... So Carlos is good at water magic, better than Harry, but still we didn't see him use it in Battle Ground when Mavra and company was taking out his friends. Yes, Harry got lucky with the conjuritis, but he took advantage of it as well. All I am saying Harry knows Carlos is better at water magic than he is, if Carlos comes for him, he will have figured out a way to neutralize it in time to stop Carlos. Just like Eb, he knew he'd lose to Eb one on one, so he preplanned with a doppelganger of himself, thus he got away and did what he needed to do.
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I think we are all over rating "power" level or strength when it comes to someone going up against Harry. Almost always Harry makes the claim that he is fighting above his weight class, or this wizard or that wizard or some other being is way better or stronger that he is at some skill or other. Yet, most of the time, Harry comes out on top. Why is that? Harry also talks about how strong his will is, and that is key.. Out of stubbornness for lack of a better word to accept defeat in most cases, Harry fights until the end.. If there is a way around something, he will find a way... So Carlos is good at water magic, better than Harry, but still we didn't see him use it in Battle Ground when Mavra and company was taking out his friends. Yes, Harry got lucky with the conjuritis, but he took advantage of it as well. All I am saying Harry knows Carlos is better at water magic than he is, if Carlos comes for him, he will have figured out a way to neutralize it in time to stop Carlos. Just like Eb, he knew he'd lose to Eb one on one, so he preplanned with a doppelganger of himself, thus he got away and did what he needed to do.
I mean, sure, if it isn't a fair fight, Harry can beat lots of people. Most fights in this series are not fair fights.
Plus, while Ramirez has been practicing his magic to be more efficient (and growing his skill in magic faster than Harry), Harry has been networking and getting a big physical boost from being Winter Knight. Harry hasn't been just sitting around, but his skill set is more than just burn it with magic until dead now. He's not fully specialized in one aspect of combat, so it makes sense that he doesn't keep up with Ramirez in his specialty.
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I mean, sure, if it isn't a fair fight, Harry can beat lots of people. Most fights in this series are not fair fights.
Plus, while Ramirez has been practicing his magic to be more efficient (and growing his skill in magic faster than Harry), Harry has been networking and getting a big physical boost from being Winter Knight. Harry hasn't been just sitting around, but his skill set is more than just burn it with magic until dead now. He's not fully specialized in one aspect of combat, so it makes sense that he doesn't keep up with Ramirez in his specialty.
That isn't completely true. Remember back in Proven Guilty when Harry took on Molly as an apprentice? Eb told him that doing that would improve his many skills, which it has. One we know for sure is the use of veils, before Molly he rarely used them, and when he did, and when he did, he said they were next to useless. Now he can throw a decent one and also uses them a lot more. It isn't just a physcial boost from being Winter Knight, he has also learned a hell of a lot on how to control it and himself. He has also learned when and when not to use the ice magic that goes with it.. Also I'd think that ice might neutralize a lot of water magic. You are also leaving out Soul Fire, Harry has also learned a lot as to how effectively to use it to enhance his spells. And no, it has been several books now, since Harry has used the "burn it until it's dead" type approach.. I also think he has learned quite a bit from hanging out with Alfred. Specialty or not, if Carlos wants to take on Harry he will have his hands more than full. One last question for you, how many fair fights have there been in the whole of the series? I think only in and even then it is questionable, sanctioned duels will you find that the fights are even remotely fair... And as we saw, one side or the other will cheat some.. No, maybe in sporting matches there will be fair fights, but in combat/war? It is life and or death, both sides will try to gain their best advantage and worry about fairness later.
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The problem with determining power, who can take who, etc. is complicated by two factors.
1. Harry has been lied to systematically about how magic works
2. Situations matter
For part 1 I will say this: we have seen Harry work on formula and calculations of how much power a spell would take and design and blah blah blah. We know he was taught this by Eb and that Eb even published a book about it. But we've also heard almost every book about how magic is about belief and emotions and will. We've seen Harry modify his spells on the fly numerous times - his force shield has been vertical and brittle, it has been horizontal and they've walked on it, its been slanted, its been wrapped in a bubble around him and flexible to absorb shock. Do you really think he engineered all these or did calculations in his head every time? No. Harry has been lied to about magic and it being calculatable that way. And we know this is typical white council procedure - you are wise enough to manage the power when you are wise enough to figure it out yourself. They lie to their baby wizards for two reasons - to give them something they can understand and calculate to give them the confidence that they can do some things in a very rigid fashion, and to limit the speed of their power growth until they are wise enough to handle the power. Right now Harry is learning to trust himself more in all kinds of way, which makes him more powerful as he feels he can/should do more, including veils, etc.
For part 2 - situations matter covers a lot of things. Are you coming at someone in their lane where all their authority and power applies, or are you coming at them sideways? Harry is a really straightforward thinker and would easily be taken by something subtle. It doesn't take a lot of power to counter Harry, it takes knowledge and subtlety.
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Fights between wizards can't be settled by pure magic. In that sense Jim wrote these kind of fights out of the book. It doesn't matter how many rocks you can disintegrate, you can't disintegrate humans. Which is why both Carlos and Harry carry guns.
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That isn't completely true. Remember back in Proven Guilty when Harry took on Molly as an apprentice? Eb told him that doing that would improve his many skills, which it has. One we know for sure is the use of veils, before Molly he rarely used them, and when he did, and when he did, he said they were next to useless. Now he can throw a decent one and also uses them a lot more. It isn't just a physcial boost from being Winter Knight, he has also learned a hell of a lot on how to control it and himself. He has also learned when and when not to use the ice magic that goes with it.. Also I'd think that ice might neutralize a lot of water magic. You are also leaving out Soul Fire, Harry has also learned a lot as to how effectively to use it to enhance his spells. And no, it has been several books now, since Harry has used the "burn it until it's dead" type approach.. I also think he has learned quite a bit from hanging out with Alfred. Specialty or not, if Carlos wants to take on Harry he will have his hands more than full. One last question for you, how many fair fights have there been in the whole of the series? I think only in and even then it is questionable, sanctioned duels will you find that the fights are even remotely fair... And as we saw, one side or the other will cheat some.. No, maybe in sporting matches there will be fair fights, but in combat/war? It is life and or death, both sides will try to gain their best advantage and worry about fairness later.
We agree in the most orthogonal ways ???
I'm not saying that Ramirez can take down Harry in a fair fight. In fact, I don't think he could in any of the books so far. What I'm saying is that Ramirez's skill in magic increased faster than Harry's skill in magic lately (to where Harry suspects Ramirez might be as good or better than him at complex spellwork in BG; also note that growing faster is not the same as being better, that's off by a derivative). Part of this is that Harry's attention has been split in more directions than Ramirez who can afford to spend more time on magic. Another part is Ramirez's support system is basically all wizards that can help his magic vs Harry's support system being so varied in skill sets.
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Hmmm, magic is heritary yes? So, is specific magic prowess also? Like, is Harry basically a young Eb? Superpowerful, good at a bit of everything, can beat you in combat because he'll use what you don't have, ect? I know Harry still has some holes in his powerset but most of that I'm starting to think is purely lack of practical practice with it. He adapts and evolves new styles and abilities between almost every book.
I'm hoping if(when?) we see Ramirez vs Harry that Harry has that proverbial rabbit to pull out of his hat. The wizardly insight he's been putting together knowing full well he's gonna have to neutralize him eventually.
Mmm, harry is supposed to start shape shifting eventually I think? That's water magic, first step to overcoming something would be becoming more familiar with it's workings.
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Hmmm, magic is heritary yes? So, is specific magic prowess also? Like, is Harry basically a young Eb? Superpowerful, good at a bit of everything, can beat you in combat because he'll use what you don't have, ect? I know Harry still has some holes in his powerset but most of that I'm starting to think is purely lack of practical practice with it. He adapts and evolves new styles and abilities between almost every book.
I'm hoping if(when?) we see Ramirez vs Harry that Harry has that proverbial rabbit to pull out of his hat. The wizardly insight he's been putting together knowing full well he's gonna have to neutralize him eventually.
Mmm, harry is supposed to start shape shifting eventually I think? That's water magic, first step to overcoming something would be becoming more familiar with it's workings.
I don't think magical style is necessarily genetic. I think an academic type heritage fits the Dresden Files better. Apprentices have styles most similar to their masters, even if their specialties don't really lead to direct copies.
For example, with Harry and Molly, both of them hammer away big and loud at enemies with their specialties. Fire, ice, and force for Harry vs illusions for Molly (One Woman Rave, anyone?). Compare that to someone like Ramirez that is more controlled with his entropy fields or Luccio with her fiery needles.
As a side topic, do we have any other explicit master/apprentice relationships than these?
Eb --> Harry --> Molly
Luccio --> Morgan
Simon --> DuMorne --> Harry / Elaine
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Just reread the battle between Harry, Carlos, the Wardens, Rivershoulders and Listen to Winds, with the Major General coming to the rescue with garlic from PizzaSpress, verses Mavra and Drakul and Company. In that battle Carlos got beat up pretty bad, he was in serious trouble, as was Harry until Toot came to the rescue with the garlic. After the battle Carlos gave Harry a look and a hardness was described in that look. In other words Carlos was blaming Harry for what happened to his friends, or at least that is the implication I got from it. After the battle Carlos wants to go after the vamps and Harry tells him no, they got a bigger battle to fight that they'd get revenge after. But from that exchange I get the impression that Carlos has been brain washed by someone, first hints was the tracking device, and his somehow thinking the vamps was all Harry's fault. In a way I suppose, Harry did give Mavra the book. Anyway, from what went down during that battle Carlos didn't appear stronger than Harry or as strong.
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Just reread the battle between Harry, Carlos, the Wardens, Rivershoulders and Listen to Winds, with the Major General coming to the rescue with garlic from PizzaSpress, verses Mavra and Drakul and Company. In that battle Carlos got beat up pretty bad, he was in serious trouble, as was Harry until Toot came to the rescue with the garlic. After the battle Carlos gave Harry a look and a hardness was described in that look. In other words Carlos was blaming Harry for what happened to his friends, or at least that is the implication I got from it. After the battle Carlos wants to go after the vamps and Harry tells him no, they got a bigger battle to fight that they'd get revenge after. But from that exchange I get the impression that Carlos has been brain washed by someone, first hints was the tracking device, and his somehow thinking the vamps was all Harry's fault. In a way I suppose, Harry did give Mavra the book. Anyway, from what went down during that battle Carlos didn't appear stronger than Harry or as strong.
Jim didn't say he was as strong. He actually said if they fought it would be the fencer vs the Olympic lifter. Remember that David beat Goliath with a little stone because he used it in a very precise, and lethal way. That's basically how Jim is saying Carlos would win. That being the case I think we all know that Carlos won't kill Harry, even if he tries.
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Jim didn't say he was as strong. He actually said if they fought it would be the fencer vs the Olympic lifter. Remember that David beat Goliath with a little stone because he used it in a very precise, and lethal way. That's basically how Jim is saying Carlos would win. That being the case I think we all know that Carlos won't kill Harry, even if he tries.
It isn't about size, one of the morals about the David verses Goliath was even though Goliath was this huge strong mountain of a man, he wasn't the brightest penny in the bag.. David was smaller, but he was brave and smart enough to know that it he could, the best bet was to take Goliath down from a distance.. He also was smart enough to realize he had the right weapon for the job, a sling and a stone.. Oh and another weakness in Goliath, he was way over confident. In the case of Harry verses Carlos, he might be a heavy weight, but Harry's mind is as agile as a fencer, that is how he has beaten opponents above his weight class for years. Actually it might be Carlos who has the more calcified brain in a fight.
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It isn't about size, one of the morals about the David verses Goliath was even though Goliath was this huge strong mountain of a man, he wasn't the brightest penny in the bag.. David was smaller, but he was brave and smart enough to know that it he could, the best bet was to take Goliath down from a distance.. He also was smart enough to realize he had the right weapon for the job, a sling and a stone.. Oh and another weakness in Goliath, he was way over confident. In the case of Harry verses Carlos, he might be a heavy weight, but Harry's mind is as agile as a fencer, that is how he has beaten opponents above his weight class for years. Actually it might be Carlos who has the more calcified brain in a fight.
I'm just repeating what Jim said.
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I'm just repeating what Jim said.
I know, but what I am saying there is more than one way of looking at what Jim said. Which is probably why Jim said it. One can look at it in terms of mental agility and strength verses physical agility and strength. All I am saying given what Jim said, it is possible that the weight lifter has a very agile mind, and the fencer not at all which would make a huge difference in a battle..
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I would make a comparison to the guy in GS, fast but dumb vs the genoska fight and his tactical mindset.
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I would make a comparison to the guy in GS, fast but dumb vs the genoska fight and his tactical mindset.
Yeah, or Rivershoulders who has the body of a weightlifter and a very agile mind..
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I knew that, sorry about that, very hard week.... :(
sorry to hear it. Lot of similar titles... Tomorrow is Yesterday, Return to Tomorrow, All our Yesterdays... can be confusing. Hope this week is better
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sorry to hear it. Lot of similar titles... Tomorrow is Yesterday, Return to Tomorrow, All our Yesterdays... can be confusing. Hope this week is better
Thank you, you and me both... :)