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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kindler on August 19, 2021, 06:39:10 PM
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I reread (well, re-listened, actually) Peace Talks and Battle Ground recently, and I don't think it's ever explained where they came from. A mortal had to summon them, right?
Except they're the Dresden Files iteration of the Hounds of Tindalos, which are creatures that find and hunt you when you mess with the fabric of time.
So, questions:
1. If they were summoned, who summoned them? Again, it needs to be a mortal practitioner. Could it have been Justine? My understanding is that magic was necessary to summon an Outsider, and Justine isn't magically talented. Justine is the obvious answer, particularly because they were attacked right as Harry left. But Justine needs Harry to take her to the Island, so why risk that he'd be torn to pieces?
2. Was there time travel during the events of Peace Talks and Battle Ground? I find it intriguing that it was specifically Cornerhounds who were summoned. Why those particular types of Outsiders rather than any of the others we've seen? They weren't especially effective at attacking Eb and Harry. Were they intended to fail, or were they following their instincts to attack time travelers?
Like I said, it's entirely possible the answer is simple "Justine, duh," but I think there's some room for debate here. Anyone have any thoughts?
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I'm a firm believer it was EB himself. In the 'events in history with energy behind them' category of repetition I think what happened in Harry vs Ebs fight was unavoidable. The primary thing the corner hounds appearance did was interrupt their growing tension, this literally pushed the fight back farther to when Harry had prepped for it. I think Eb killed him and turned around and sent the corner hounds back to interrupt the event. He's the blackstaff, he can break any of the laws on a whim.
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I think the cornerhounds are a clue that future!Harry is doing something in the background of PT. Future!Harry can catch a breather in the time travel book by confusing the cornerhounds into going after his younger self. Since it already happened, it's a relatively safe option. Basically the time travel equivalent of the classic heat seeking missile ploy.
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Have to add Marcone to the list. As a mortal wizard, he could do it, and the previous host launched an attack on Winter.
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I think we have to look at motive here. What was the timing of it and the reason behind it? I don't think it was a coincidence that the attack came very close to Harry's visit to Justine. Nemesis knows if anyone can figure it out, it would be Harry, the Cornerhound attack was pure diversion. I am not sure that the Cornerhounds had to be summoned in the conventional way since there were already an Outsider present in Justine.
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I think we have to look at motive here. What was the timing of it and the reason behind it? I don't think it was a coincidence that the attack came very close to Harry's visit to Justine. Nemesis knows if anyone can figure it out, it would be Harry, the Cornerhound attack was pure diversion. I am not sure that the Cornerhounds had to be summoned in the conventional way since there were already an Outsider present in Justine.
Well if it was Justine I think it's because she wanted Harry out of the way, and saw him as a problem. Didn't want him at the talks, and didn't want him blowing her cover. The Corner Hounds were a way of removing Dresden without exposing herself.
It may have been Marcone, who wanted Harry eliminated.
Carlos who was also in town could be another Nemfected individual. The way he acts does make me think someone is turning him against Dresden. Nemesis, Merlin, or someone else.
I don't think it was Eb because he came damn close to dying himself.
I think the most obvious choice is Justine, and it would become obvious once it was shown she was possessed by a Walker. That being said it could have been someone else, and that would be a pretty interesting mystery.
What we need is someone to ask Jim. He either says Justine, or "I'm not gonna tell you".
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Well if it was Justine I think it's because she wanted Harry out of the way, and saw him as a problem. Didn't want him at the talks, and didn't want him blowing her cover. The Corner Hounds were a way of removing Dresden without exposing herself.
Bingo
It may have been Marcone, who wanted Harry eliminated.
Motive? The attack happens right after Harry's visit to Justine. Some things about his interview with her seemed off, but before he can absorb any of that he is attacked by Cornerhounds. Yeah, most of the time Marcone would like to eliminate Harry, but at the same time he is a member in good standing in the Accords, and I doubt he would risk if word got back to her about the attack of offending Mab. No, I doubt it was Marcone.
Carlos who was also in town could be another Nemfected individual. The way he acts does make me think someone is turning him against Dresden. Nemesis, Merlin, or someone else.
Again possible, and he could be infected but at the same time, since he and his Wardens were
putting Harry under the microscope, he could have easily come up with a "justified Warden" killing of Harry and except for his small circle of allies on the Senior Council, it wouldn't be questioned. Also timing, Carlos had no clue about Justine.
What we need is someone to ask Jim. He either says Justine, or "I'm not gonna tell you".
He may not say just so he can keep his options open.. ::)
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Surely there is some kind of limitation for Nemfected mortals from summoning Outsiders. Otherwise, Nemesis's strategy doesn't make sense. It could hole up somewhere and summon an army right around the Outer Gates. I don't think Justine is a likely candidate for summoning the cornerhounds to our reality.
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Surely there is some kind of limitation for Nemfected mortals from summoning Outsiders. Otherwise, Nemesis's strategy doesn't make sense. It could hole up somewhere and summon an army right around the Outer Gates. I don't think Justine is a likely candidate for summoning the cornerhounds to our reality.
Why does there have to be? Nemesis infects with a strategy in mind, who it sends knows this. HWWB is a good soldier, I doubt he'd go rouge and allow his mortal host to summon up Cornerhounds "just because.." Also note that their mission appeared to be specific, get Harry and along with him Eb if they could.. When they failed they went back to where ever. Justine called them up for a purpose, to distract and stop Harry.. Harry even says it would take a mortal in the area to call them up if I remember correctly. If I did remember that correctly, that was a neon sign, screaming, "CLUE!" It's Justine. Unless it was the doorman, that is still possible.
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The limitation is freedom, mortals have to intentionally make a choice, even if it's a subconscious one. When she subverts them, they don't have much agency to do so. Pertshe could con one into it, but make someone do it? I doubt. It'd lack the mortal flavor.
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I think the cornerhounds are a clue that future!Harry is doing something in the background of PT. Future!Harry can catch a breather in the time travel book by confusing the cornerhounds into going after his younger self. Since it already happened, it's a relatively safe option. Basically the time travel equivalent of the classic heat seeking missile ploy.
Given the what they are and what they do I would back this with odds. Possible bonus points if this foreshadows Mirror Mirror Harry doing what we've been told he does. Which might mean that he led the Corner Hounds to this location in an attempt to feed Harry Prime to them as a substitute for himself.
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Why does there have to be? Nemesis infects with a strategy in mind, who it sends knows this. HWWB is a good soldier, I doubt he'd go rouge and allow his mortal host to summon up Cornerhounds "just because.." Also note that their mission appeared to be specific, get Harry and along with him Eb if they could.. When they failed they went back to where ever. Justine called them up for a purpose, to distract and stop Harry.. Harry even says it would take a mortal in the area to call them up if I remember correctly. If I did remember that correctly, that was a neon sign, screaming, "CLUE!" It's Justine. Unless it was the doorman, that is still possible.
The goal of the Outsiders is to end reality, and the Outer Gates defend reality. Only mortals can summon Outsiders (so they get a free pass to skip the Gates). In the situation where Nemesis can use a mortal host to summon outsiders, why not use that and go around reality's defenses to further the goal of destroying reality?
I mean, it would make sense from the narrow perspective of PT for Justine to have summoned cornerhounds (sweeping any questions of magical ability for that under the rug for now), but in the wider world of Dresden, it doesn't fit what we're told about the nature of the Outer Gates.
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The goal of the Outsiders is to end reality, and the Outer Gates defend reality. Only mortals can summon Outsiders (so they get a free pass to skip the Gates). In the situation where Nemesis can use a mortal host to summon outsiders, why not use that and go around reality's defenses to further the goal of destroying reality?
I mean, it would make sense from the narrow perspective of PT for Justine to have summoned cornerhounds (sweeping any questions of magical ability for that under the rug for now), but in the wider world of Dresden, it doesn't fit what we're told about the nature of the Outer Gates.
Consider this may be one of the main reasons why no one even Mab speaks it's name very much, they don't want to give anyone any ideas.. And the question was who summoned the Cornerhounds in the story, Justine makes the most sense, though as I said there was also a doorman mentioned as the other mortal in the area. We are also told that Nemesis can only be in thirteen bodies at once, there might also be a limit as to how many Outsiders can be called up at once as well. At the end of Cold Days, when they attacked the island, if an army of Outsiders could have been called up, that would have been the time to do it.
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Consider this may be one of the main reasons why no one even Mab speaks it's name very much, they don't want to give anyone any ideas.. And the question was who summoned the Cornerhounds in the story, Justine makes the most sense, though as I said there was also a doorman mentioned as the other mortal in the area. We are also told that Nemesis can only be in thirteen bodies at once, there might also be a limit as to how many Outsiders can be called up at once as well. At the end of Cold Days, when they attacked the island, if an army of Outsiders could have been called up, that would have been the time to do it.
Justine makes the most sense if you ignore the other books in the series. It just doesn't fit with wider context of the capabilities of Nemesis how we understand them. That points to more we aren't aware of happening in the background of the story.
The 13 bodies for Nemesis is just my speculation, but we know that Nemesis does have limits to its capabilities.
Looking back at CD, they did kinda call up an army of outsiders. It took the Wild Hunt to stop them from getting to the island proper even without Maeve stepping in directly. I just don't think Nemesis can hijack the free will of a mortal in order to call outsiders in itself. It needs to be more subtle and trick mortals into doing it instead of strong-arming them.
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Looking back at CD, they did kinda call up an army of outsiders. It took the Wild Hunt to stop them from getting to the island proper even without Maeve stepping in directly. I just don't think Nemesis can hijack the free will of a mortal in order to call outsiders in itself. It needs to be more subtle and trick mortals into doing it instead of strong-arming them.
No, I don't think Nemesis can hijack free will of a mortal. However a mortal can be manipulated into calling up an Outsider by someone with an agenda like Lord Raith or Maeve.
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No, I don't think Nemesis can hijack free will of a mortal. However a mortal can be manipulated into calling up an Outsider by someone with an agenda like Lord Raith or Maeve.
Okay, but they weren't around Justine in PT? I'm lost.
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Okay, but they weren't around Justine in PT? I'm lost.
Maeve and Lord Raith are examples of those who could manipulate a vanilla mortal to call up an Outsider. Justine was infected/possessed, but she still is a mortal, so she could be manipulated to do it by HWWB. Or heck I guess she may have even been able to manipulate the doorman if he had any talent at all to call the Cornerhounds up/
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The goal of the Outsiders is to end reality, and the Outer Gates defend reality. Only mortals can summon Outsiders (so they get a free pass to skip the Gates). In the situation where Nemesis can use a mortal host to summon outsiders, why not use that and go around reality's defenses to further the goal of destroying reality?
I mean, it would make sense from the narrow perspective of PT for Justine to have summoned cornerhounds (sweeping any questions of magical ability for that under the rug for now), but in the wider world of Dresden, it doesn't fit what we're told about the nature of the Outer Gates.
That's a really good point that goes against Justine summoning. I mean what would stop Nemesis from just bringing them in by the truck load?
Hmmmmmm plot thickens!
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If it wasn't Justine then why then and why there? The Former attack was meant to do what it did. There was no reason that I can think of that would have brought them. Early.
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Maeve and Lord Raith are examples of those who could manipulate a vanilla mortal to call up an Outsider. Justine was infected/possessed, but she still is a mortal, so she could be manipulated to do it by HWWB. Or heck I guess she may have even been able to manipulate the doorman if he had any talent at all to call the Cornerhounds up/
But not by Nemesis, otherwise that would be the go-to strategy instead of the current one.
The doorman doesn't even get a name in the text. I don't think he's an important character.
If it wasn't Justine then why then and why there? The Former attack was meant to do what it did. There was no reason that I can think of that would have brought them. Early.
Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds. He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos (http://Hounds of Tindalos). The important line of the wiki page: "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time." It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background. Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.
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But not by Nemesis, otherwise that would be the go-to strategy instead of the current one.
The doorman doesn't even get a name in the text. I don't think he's an important character.
Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds. He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos (http://Hounds of Tindalos). The important line of the wiki page: "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time." It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background. Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.
But the doorman is mentioned, he doesn't have to be an important character or even named, if he was the one that called up the Cornerhounds. He played his role end of story.
I guess I am not making myself clear when I mention Lord Raith and Maeve, the point is, they were corrupted by Nemesis, and in turn they corrupted a mortal or mortals to call up Outsiders as needed. It could be if she couldn't herself, Justine corrupted the doorman to calling them up.
That's a really good point that goes against Justine summoning. I mean what would stop Nemesis from just bringing them in by the truck load?
One factor is they don't have all their ducks in a row yet.. They tried a frontal assault on Demonreach at the end of Cold Days and they failed. So now the aim is by stealth and blackmail, that is done on the Q.T. As in get Justine pregnant so she can assert pressure on Thomas to attempt to blow up the Accords by assassination, leading to hopefully discrediting their main future enemy, the star born Harry. Also the hope might have been that Thomas would have been killed in the attempt. Not sure how it worked, but Lord Raith was hoping for the death of Thomas because it would somehow lift Margaret's curse. So he might have been hoping for a two-for, Thomas killed, curse lifted, Lara discredited, he is in power again...
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Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds. He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos (http://Hounds of Tindalos). The important line of the wiki page: "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time." It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background. Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.
I understand the significance of the Hounds. The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb. But it's the same as Nemfections. If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?
In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why? Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.
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I understand the significance of the Hounds. The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb. But it's the same as Nemfections. If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?
In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why? Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.
Possible to throw Harry off the scent, if I remember correctly he didn't know much about them. He might have been in trouble had Eb not been there with information as well as raw power. So Justine/Nemesis may have just wanted to get rid of Harry.
Time travel I think is a stretch, the Cornerhounds come from another dimension but that doesn't make it time travel. Now in the short story about Molly and Kringle, bending time is mentioned, enables Kringle and maybe Molly as well to deliver all that good stuff around the world in a short time period.
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I understand the significance of the Hounds. The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb. But it's the same as Nemfections. If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?
In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why? Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.
I suggested future!Harry was being chased in the time travel book, not Eb. He used his past self to give himself breathing room in that book. We just won't find out about the details for a few books.
In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension. For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.
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In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension. For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.
But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry. Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves. You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling. However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
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But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry. Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves. You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling. However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
Doesn't have to be willy nilly if they are smart. Take over some island that is semi-isolated and just summon them in until you have large force. Then just do what Ethniu should have done. Attack a large coastal city with no warning, massacre a 100k+ people and retreat before the cavalry arrives. Do it several times until the Supernatural/Mundane war gets going. It won't be a big blow to the Accorded Nations in one fell swoop, but supposedly the Outsiders are playing the long game.
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But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry. Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves. You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling. However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came. My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders. If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle. In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands. It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.
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Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came. My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders. If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle. In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands. It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.
It isn't random for starters. I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas. "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?" Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up. So guess who? Justine. Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey. Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.
The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it.. The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further. The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system. Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.
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It isn't random for starters. I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas. "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?" Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up. So guess who? Justine. Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey. Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.
What isn't random? Who said random?
Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down. It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her. Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building. At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours. If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara. Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds. That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.
The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it.. The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further. The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system. Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.
So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry? I don't buy that at all.
I don't think Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders either, including Justine. If it could, the cloak and dagger strategy of getting hooks into the various supernatural nations it uses is needlessly complicated. It could just use mortals to quietly summon an army of outsiders through the Outer Gates then take over directly.
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Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down. It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her. Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building. At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours. If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara. Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds. That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.
What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation? Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him. No, I think Harry's gut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?" Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap! That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally puts it together, he had seen though her in the apartment. Justine asks if Lara knows, not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her! Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the island, on the boat.
So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry? I don't buy that at all.
You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up. In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds. Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books. At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why Thomas did what he did? Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was? Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind. 1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine. Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,
"Something about Justine wasn't. . .quite right, earlier, in the apartment," And I let my voice harden. "How long ago did you possess the girl?"
The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all. Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;
The she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, "I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind's eye."
Justine exploited all of Thomas's weaknesses, his love for her that was Justine. Corrupted him so he'd be driven to murder and hopefully shatter the Accords. Sent the Cornerhounds to throw Harry off the scent and blinds Lara to what she really is.
One more answer to your question, Harry asks her, "why? to shatter the Accords?"
Nemesis answers;
"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured. "It is a frame of mind."
Then it goes on to speak of an unraveling of all things ending in Empty Night.. Interesting
it happens slowly and is done before anyone notices.. Madeline Albright in her book about
how democracies die describes it this way, paraphrasing, " the forces against democracy pluck away
at democracy feather by feather, like one would pluck a chicken, no one notices it or feels it until suddenly all the feathers are gone.." And people find they are living under a totalitarian state.
Nemesis basically tells Harry the same thing, how they will undermine everything, Mab, the Accords, upset the order of the universe, then all they "need is a single opening."
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What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation? Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him. No, I think Harry's cut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?" Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap! That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally sees through her. Justine also knows to bring Lara in not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her! Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the boat.
Nemesis wants to end reality. After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit. Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality). It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.
You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up. In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds.
So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders? Sorry, I don't buy that either.
Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books. At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why he did what he did? Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was? Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind. 1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine. Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,
The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all. Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;
Outsiders want to end reality. They don't particularly care how it comes about. "Not their style" isn't convincing.
The reason that Nemesis is sneaky is because forcing mortals to summon an unstoppable army of outsiders isn't an option, i.e. forcing Justine to summon the cornerhounds isn't an option.
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The reason that Nemesis is sneaky is because forcing mortals to summon an unstoppable army of outsiders isn't an option, i.e. forcing Justine to summon the cornerhounds isn't an option.
One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders.... Listen could be that person. He's a Starborn.... Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis. Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
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One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders.... Listen could be that person. He's a Starborn.... Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis. Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
Listen is more likely than Justine, but I still don't like him for it. You don't insert creatures famously associated with time travel into a story without there being time travel involved.
As a side note, starborn isn't a subcategory of wizard, is it? We've never seen Listen throw around any magic.
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One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders.... Listen could be that person. He's a Starborn.... Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis. Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
they also kidnapped a bunch of low level practitioners, likely to brainwash them into service (though, perhaps to harvest resources.. or make kraken for some reason)
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One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders.... Listen could be that person. He's a Starborn.... Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis. Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
You don't have to be a star born to summon an Outsider, at least I don't think you do. Was Madge a star born?
Nemesis wants to end reality. After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit. Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality). It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.
Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off. So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it. Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.
So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders? Sorry, I don't buy that either.
No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder. Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point? Because she wasn't.
Outsiders want to end reality. They don't particularly care how it comes about. "Not their style" isn't convincing.
Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in.. They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.
they also kidnapped a bunch of low level practitioners, likely to brainwash them into service (though, perhaps to harvest resources.. or make kraken for some reason)
Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders. She was a low level practitioner.
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But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?
I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?
Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.
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The specificity of the creature called makes no sense in the ongoing plot.
Jim hasn't been entirely consistent but no character that I can think of has done anything like a summoning without it being signaled somewhere in the books. So scotch the Doorman. We've seen a ritual to call them and it was long and involved(aka Madge) so time is a factor. And Harry was looking for Magic when Eb found him. Wherever the attack came from, it wasn't in the close vicinity of Harry and Eb.
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One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders.... Listen could be that person. He's a Starborn.... Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis. Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".
WOJ was that starborn don't have to worry about being hijacked by Nemesis, although I suppose Listen could have made a deal to serve their side willingly as Harry has been offered a few times. I don't think he's shown any talent whatsoever, though - he was giving Molly trouble just by being an intelligent warrior (sort of like dark side anti-Murphy). I don't think she'd have done even as well as she did as the Rag Lady against him if he had magic too.
Could just be that long-term nemfected try to get a Circle / Black Council ally near them (or on call to be able to get near them on short notice through the Ways) to handle this sort of thing for them.
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But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?
I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?
Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.
On her own, no, Justine wouldn't do that, but she has been infected for some time now.. Her mind has been affected, and even though she isn't what she was, she is still a mortal, and as a mortal she will do the bidding of the voices she hears in her head.. So while Nemesis might be driving, Justine is still the car, it is her mortal horn that is blowing to call up the Cornerhounds. Madge wasn't possessed, Justine is, do perhaps in that case no ritual needed. Heck one might not have been needed in the case of Madge, but it was a way of brainwashing her. In the case of Lea and Maeve, nothing was called up but Nemesis was able to infect via the Knife.
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Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off. So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it. Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.
Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.
No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder. Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point? Because she wasn't.
But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control. No mortal free will there to summon outsiders. I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders. (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine. It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)
Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in.. They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.
Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality. They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.
Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders. She was a low level practitioner.
Raith tricked Madge into helping him. It's not the same thing as possessing her.
But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?
I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?
Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.
Yep, exactly. Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them. At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.
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Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.
The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself. He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine.
But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control. No mortal free will there to summon outsiders. I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders. (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine. It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)
Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby? The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.
Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality. They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.
Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army.
Raith tricked Madge into helping him. It's not the same thing as possessing her.
No it is not, but the point is, he got a mortal to help him call up an Outsider.. Justine wasn't always the sane little thing we see today let us not forget.. Nemesis occupies her brain, but her mind still exists, no doubt they communicate, who knows what Nemesis is telling her, it could very well have tricked her into seeing Harry as come kind of threat to her and her baby, thus the mortal Justine does what needs to be done with a little umph from Nemesis to call up the Cornerhounds.
Yep, exactly. Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them. At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.
Which it did, I don't think Nemesis can possess someone if they are unwilling either.
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Listen is more likely than Justine, but I still don't like him for it. You don't insert creatures famously associated with time travel into a story without there being time travel involved.
Could you give some info on this? I looked up Corner Hounds and it only talked about them being creatures from Peace Talks and no mention of time travel. That is a big deal and tend to agree time travel was going on if this is the case.
As a side note, starborn isn't a subcategory of wizard, is it? We've never seen Listen throw around any magic.
My understanding based on WoJ is that anyone can be a Starborn as long as they are in the right place at the right time (I also believe they have to be born at that time but he didn't say that in his last interview). So I could see a lot of people with no wizarding talent at all that are Starborn.
Listen may not be a wizard but he does seem to understand the wizarding stuff by the things he's done:
"Listen is sent as a messenger to the Grey Ghost, who he addresses as "Lady Shade", from Lord Omogh.[1] He was also the leader of the gang of Fomor servitors that attacked Molly Carpenter.[2]
Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.[1][3]
Listen is able to remain cool and observant in the midst of combat. He figured out Molly's illusions and was smart enough to wait out Harry Dresden's fire spell until it wore out.[2] When dealing with the Grey Ghost, Listen could disarm her by displaying his humility and loyalty to his Lord.[1] He has the protection of the Fomor Empress, as the Fomor Lord in "Bombshells" points out (when discussing Listen) that he would not be so stupid as to kill a "special pet of the Empress" even in an "accident".[3]
His weaponry include "seashell bombs": tiny nuclear-like blasts,[2] in addition to a gun and what appears to be a wakizashi[Footnote 1] or a ninja-to
"
I don't know if he has wizard level magic but I figure he must have some level of talent to figure out Molly's illusions.
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The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself. He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine.
Fine, already distracted, so no need for Justine to summon cornerhounds, even if she could.
Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby? The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.
You think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas?
Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army.
Because they can't call up a whole army. Not on their own. They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it. Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.
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Could you give some info on this? I looked up Corner Hounds and it only talked about them being creatures from Peace Talks and no mention of time travel. That is a big deal and tend to agree time travel was going on if this is the case.
Butters calls them the Hounds of Tindalos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos).
My understanding based on WoJ is that anyone can be a Starborn as long as they are in the right place at the right time (I also believe they have to be born at that time but he didn't say that in his last interview). So I could see a lot of people with no wizarding talent at all that are Starborn.
Listen may not be a wizard but he does seem to understand the wizarding stuff by the things he's done:
"Listen is sent as a messenger to the Grey Ghost, who he addresses as "Lady Shade", from Lord Omogh.[1] He was also the leader of the gang of Fomor servitors that attacked Molly Carpenter.[2]
Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.[1][3]
Listen is able to remain cool and observant in the midst of combat. He figured out Molly's illusions and was smart enough to wait out Harry Dresden's fire spell until it wore out.[2] When dealing with the Grey Ghost, Listen could disarm her by displaying his humility and loyalty to his Lord.[1] He has the protection of the Fomor Empress, as the Fomor Lord in "Bombshells" points out (when discussing Listen) that he would not be so stupid as to kill a "special pet of the Empress" even in an "accident".[3]
His weaponry include "seashell bombs": tiny nuclear-like blasts,[2] in addition to a gun and what appears to be a wakizashi[Footnote 1] or a ninja-to
"
I don't know if he has wizard level magic but I figure he must have some level of talent to figure out Molly's illusions.
Yeah, I don't think starborn are a subcategory of wizards either. It's not too hard to figure out that Molly might be using illusions based on her past history. I think Listen is just especially competent from what we've seen so far.
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ou think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas?
Yes,if it threatens to kill her baby..
Because they can't call up a whole army. Not on their own. They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it. Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.
Why not? It managed to strong arm Thomas into becoming an assassin which could have led to the down fall of the Accords, which could lead to worse. And then again, it may not have strong armed her, it may have tricked her, who knows? You forget how Maeve managed to convince Lily to go along with her by skillful lying. The Fae are not supposed to lie, but when infected she did very well. Nemesis can lie, so who knows what that voice was saying in her head. HWWB is a slimy character, hell yeah he could have talked her into it.
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Butters calls them the Hounds of Tindalos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos).
Interesting. Harry said that Eb's hands weren't steady when they arrived. I wonder if it wasn't entirely because of the Corner Hounds themselves but the implication. It meant that someone had messed with (or traveled through) time.
So that's probably a really big deal:
1. Someone messed with time
2. Because the Corner Hounds arrived near them it stands to reason that the person is near them
3. Even more likely it's Eb or Harry.
4. If Harry it means he will be executed
5. If Eb then he knows that something really really bad is going down, and that he at present doesn't know what.
So I think that Eb's reaction to them is probably important. He also seemed to know a lot about them hinting he may have dealt with them before.
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So I think that Eb's reaction to them is probably important. He also seemed to know a lot about them hinting he may have dealt with them before.
It could mean that, or it could mean that in his three hundred years of life as a very powerful wizard, Eb would know a lot about them and may have fought them before.
Butters also could be wrong about who they are, yeah he is a Holy Knight now, but has he been given a full course on the supernatural? Michael hasn't.
If it was Harry messing with time, it had to be another Harry, because the one telling the story doesn't seem to be. If it was Eb, why would he risk that kind of attack upon himself and Harry by time travel?
I think we are making this more complex than need be, go back and read what HWWB tells Harry on the boat just before they get to the island.
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Harry names them as he banishes them. And Eb and Harry discuss corner hounds as they fight.
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Harry names them as he banishes them. And Eb and Harry discuss corner hounds as they fight.
Yeah, but he is also inside their head at that point and sees what they see. It is more like Eb
instructing Harry what to do as they go along than anything, apparently it did take both of them
to successfully fight them.
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You already know that at least one character is hunting Harry's and using them to cover what he does.
Pointing out that Harry speaks the name as he banishes them just places the use of the name. Butters is responding to Harry telling him what he had fought.
Eb's hand shaking is one of the many clue bats dropped in the book. And while it points to fear it represents the fear that comes with aging and the loss of the virility of youth. Jim points it out about all of the Senior Council.
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Eb's hand shaking is one of the many clue bats dropped in the book. And while it points to fear it represents the fear that comes with aging and the loss of the virility of youth. Jim points it out about all of the Senior Council.
Yes, that along with Eb barely being able to control himself emotionally, which is very dangerous in a wizard. Which actually would have led to Harry's death if Harry hadn't anticipated that Eb might lose control.
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Interesting. Harry said that Eb's hands weren't steady when they arrived. I wonder if it wasn't entirely because of the Corner Hounds themselves but the implication. It meant that someone had messed with (or traveled through) time.
So that's probably a really big deal:
1. Someone messed with time
2. Because the Corner Hounds arrived near them it stands to reason that the person is near them
3. Even more likely it's Eb or Harry.
4. If Harry it means he will be executed
5. If Eb then he knows that something really really bad is going down, and that he at present doesn't know what.
So I think that Eb's reaction to them is probably important. He also seemed to know a lot about them hinting he may have dealt with them before.
Yeah, most of the oldest Senior Council seemed to get frail physical descriptions this book. I think it's to help foreshadow a changing of the guard.
As far as in story, Eb is aware of the Circle screwing with things lately, so a weird assassination attempt from the White Court combined with political issues from Harry was bad enough. Throw in Outsiders specifically connected with time travel, and it's really bad.
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Here's a thought.
Eb summoned them on accident, simply by drawing their attention by inadvertently messing with the localized flow of time.
The universe yawed slightly in his direction as he
did, a subtle bending of light, a minor wobble of
gravity, a shudder in the very ground as Ebenezar
drank power from the earth itself.
Bending light?
Universe yawing toward him?
That's the kind of behavior one sees around a black hole.
And as we all know, dense gravity can affect the flow of time. Dense gravity that's strong enough to bend light would be way more than enough to cause gravitational time dilation.
So maybe it was less that someone sent them, and more that they were already in reality, and Eb accidentally did enough, between his power and his fear, to draw their attention.
We're so busy trying to fit the attack into the plot, when it might later be revealed that it had nothing to do with the bad guys, and everything to do with Eb losing control of his power, as others pointed out.
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Here's a thought.
Eb summoned them on accident, simply by drawing their attention by inadvertently messing with the localized flow of time.
Bending light?
Universe yawing toward him?
That's the kind of behavior one sees around a black hole.
And as we all know, dense gravity can affect the flow of time. Dense gravity that's strong enough to bend light would be way more than enough to cause gravitational time dilation.
So maybe it was less that someone sent them, and more that they were already in reality, and Eb accidentally did enough, between his power and his fear, to draw their attention.
We're so busy trying to fit the attack into the plot, when it might later be revealed that it had nothing to do with the bad guys, and everything to do with Eb losing control of his power, as others pointed out.
Eb is drawing in power. I don't think his gravity is drawing in light (anything in the vicinity would probably be pretty smashed for gravity that strong to suddenly appear in a place). The energy sink from Eb taking a big magical breath draws in light a bit too.
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Eb is drawing in power. I don't think his gravity is drawing in light (anything in the vicinity would probably be pretty smashed for gravity that strong to suddenly appear in a place). The energy sink from Eb taking a big magical breath draws in light a bit too.
Magic in the Dresdenverse still obeys the laws of physics. So any energy sink powerful enough to manipulate gravity and light and the universe itself would, in all likelihood, manipulate time as well, however minutely.
He might not be trying to create a micro black hole, and he might not be trying to manipulate time, but the former fits the description of what he did, and the latter is a likely side effect of such an energy draw.
I'm not saying it's likely that he summoned them with that and his fear, but I think it could be possible.
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Magic in the Dresdenverse still obeys the laws of physics. So any energy sink powerful enough to manipulate gravity and light and the universe itself would, in all likelihood, manipulate time as well, however minutely.
He might not be trying to create a micro black hole, and he might not be trying to manipulate time, but the former fits the description of what he did, and the latter is a likely side effect of such an energy draw.
I'm not saying it's likely that he summoned them with that and his fear, but I think it could be possible.
Fair enough, but if Eb drawing in power like that had some chance of what you say, surely Harry's giant gravity hammer in Changes would do it on a much higher scale? Physics is physics, but sometimes the magical rule of cool wins the day.
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Fair enough, but if Eb drawing in power like that had some chance of what you say, surely Harry's giant gravity hammer in Changes would do it on a much higher scale? Physics is physics, but sometimes the magical rule of cool wins the day.
I would imagine it depends on the magnitude and method.
Harry's spell weakened gravity in a large area to increase gravity in a small area. It was an area of effect spell that had no noted affect on any other aspect of reality.
Eb's spell was so acute that it did a lot in a dense space with no regional compensation, so reality itself bent and twisted to compensate.
It's more likely that someone sent them, but I could also see Harry having an epiphany later with Eb where he realizes it was just because Eb we reckless in his method. That, combined with his reckless spell later that would have killed him, could be the case against Eb being stable enough for his job.
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Here is another possibility. The Hounds were sent to attack Harry (Or Eb or both) from someone in the past or more likely, they future. Here is something interesting about the Hounds of Tindalos:
"The Hounds of Tindalos are extra-dimensional predatory creatures, capable of materializing at any point in space and time to feed upon victims."
If this is true then it could mean that someone sent them from a different point in time to where Harry, and Eb were. Heck maybe Eb killed Harry, and sent the Hounds back in time with the hope that they would do exactly what they did do, stop Harry and Eb from throwing down.
Yeah, most of the oldest Senior Council seemed to get frail physical descriptions this book. I think it's to help foreshadow a changing of the guard.
lol did you skip over the duel between Eb, and Harry? Eb was an absolute boss, and showed no signs of being frail. He showed the opposite. If he'd have taken on Harry Dresden without the Winter Knight Mantle, he may very well have kicked his ass up around his ears. (I know it wasn't really Harry but you know what I mean)
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@groinkick
Eb will die in a fight. Men like him don't die quietly. So as you age at some point you realize that you will never be as strong as you were the last time and that sooner or later you won't be strong enough to win. That's how Jim is writing him. He's signaling that the fight is in the near future.
I don't think he's bending time. Somebody is time traveling. Or crossing between time lines.
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lol did you skip over the duel between Eb, and Harry? Eb was an absolute boss, and showed no signs of being frail. He showed the opposite. If he'd have taken on Harry Dresden without the Winter Knight Mantle, he may very well have kicked his ass up around his ears. (I know it wasn't really Harry but you know what I mean)
Oh, Eb is still a badass that can stomp on most anyone; that's not what I'm saying. But Eb, Listens to Wind, and Martha Liberty are given descriptions that make them seem past their prime, moreso than in previous books. Maybe I'm reading more into what River Shoulders was saying in PT.
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@groinkick
Eb will die in a fight. Men like him don't die quietly. So as you age at some point you realize that you will never be as strong as you were the last time and that sooner or later you won't be strong enough to win. That's how Jim is writing him. He's signaling that the fight is in the near future.
I don't think he's bending time. Somebody is time traveling. Or crossing between time lines.
I hope to see him go out in a blaze of glory, but years ago I had a prediction that I really hope doesn't happen. My prediction was that he'd be shackled with the thorned manacles that don't allow him to use magic. He will be beheaded by the Council. Carlos saying that would happen if he didn't kill Dresden if ordered to makes me think it's more likely. It would be a way of really getting Harry to declare war on the Council (and be emotional for the fans).
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Oh, Eb is still a badass that can stomp on most anyone; that's not what I'm saying. But Eb, Listens to Wind, and Martha Liberty are given descriptions that make them seem past their prime, moreso than in previous books. Maybe I'm reading more into what River Shoulders was saying in PT.
Yeah I agree with this. What really kind of stinks is that there isn't any good replacements for the "new order". I see the end game is Harry will basically be Merlin, and he will be part of the Round Table, hand down Excalibur ect. but I don't see any new wizards to stand beside him and create a new White Council.
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I hope to see him go out in a blaze of glory, but years ago I had a prediction that I really hope doesn't happen. My prediction was that he'd be shackled with the thorned manacles that don't allow him to use magic. He will be beheaded by the Council. Carlos saying that would happen if he didn't kill Dresden if ordered to makes me think it's more likely. It would be a way of really getting Harry to declare war on the Council (and be emotional for the fans).
They'd have to catch Eb first before they put him in any thorned manacles, I don't see Eb submitting quietly to any of that. I think when Eb wakes up from surgery and finds out what the Council did behind his back after Harry put it on the line to deal with Ethniu, he is going to be very pissed off. I can see a real split happening, hard to tell whether or not Eb would surrender the Black Staff, but I see him in the next book showing up at the castle telling Harry he quit and is now backing him. It may take a little longer for Listens to Wind and Rashid, but I see them following suit.
ah I agree with this. What really kind of stinks is that there isn't any good replacements for the "new order". I see the end game is Harry will basically be Merlin, and he will be part of the Round Table, hand down Excalibur ect. but I don't see any new wizards to stand beside him and create a new White Council.
Yeah, if Jim follows somewhat the pattern of The Lord of the Rings, like the elves going into the West, the time for wizards will have past with the BAT so it will be a hollow victory of sorts. I'm not sure where the wizards will go, possibly some part of the Nevernever, and magical talent will simply fade for lack of practice from the world.
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I can see a real split happening, hard to tell whether or not Eb would surrender the Black Staff, but I see him in the next book showing up at the castle telling Harry he quit and is now backing him. It may take a little longer for Listens to Wind and Rashid, but I see them following suit.
I can't. He's not going to get over Harry being engaged to Lara.
One of the narrative purposes of that plot arc is probably going to be driving the wedge between Harry and Eb even deeper.
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I can't. He's not going to get over Harry being engaged to Lara.
One of the narrative purposes of that plot arc is probably going to be driving the wedge between Harry and Eb even deeper.
Maybe, maybe not, I don't see the engagement lasting that long, Molly is on the case. And even if Eb doesn't show up on Harry's doorstep, I don't see him remaining in the Council after this.
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Maybe, maybe not, I don't see the engagement lasting that long, Molly is on the case. And even if Eb doesn't show up on Harry's doorstep, I don't see him remaining in the Council after this.
Molly has been directly commanded by Mab to see to all the arrangements for the wedding. About the only thing she can do is leak information but I doubt she'd want to put Harry in danger in any way so she's got to play it pretty straight.
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Molly has been directly commanded by Mab to see to all the arrangements for the wedding. About the only thing she can do is leak information but I doubt she'd want to put Harry in danger in any way so she's got to play it pretty straight.
Perhaps, but in the car at the end of the book, she tells Harry when he is ready to act she will be
there for him. That says to me if there is a way out of it, she is backing her Knight.
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Perhaps, but in the car at the end of the book, she tells Harry when he is ready to act she will be
there for him. That says to me if there is a way out of it, she is backing her Knight.
Molly dances to Mab's tune no less than Harry. This is precisely what happened to Maeve and Molly is not Mab's daughter.
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Molly dances to Mab's tune no less than Harry. This is precisely what happened to Maeve and Molly is not Mab's daughter.
Agreed, Molly will help Harry with any plan he or others come up with that doesn't violate her orders. But Mab's order keeps her from being a planner.
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I'm tempted to label this "time travel shenanigans." In fact, when this particular scene was released several months before Peace Talks came out, I read the description and the term "cornerhounds" and immediately said "Hounds of Tindalos in Dresden?"
When Butters opens up the very next chapter with "Holy crap, Hounds of Tindalos are real?!" It solidified my opinion that time travel would kinda have to be involved in some way, else it'd probably be a different type of Outsider. It feels too much like an obvious clue/reference.
My argument:
1. Justine is not the summoner, because she needs Harry to live long enough to escort her to Demonreach, Nemesis's real goal. It does not suit her plans to try to kill Harry, especially not when she knows exactly how to manipulate him. (Literally just "being a woman asking for help" is enough 99% of the time for Harry). She also does not demonstrate any wizard (or even warlock)-level talent in any previous book. Thus far, the only non-wizard/non-warlock we see using mortal-style magic is Thomas, when he uses the locator spell Harry taught him (offscreen in... White Night, I think), and Butters, when he makes a circle in Dead Beat (I'm excusing all of the single-use magical items he uses in his pseudo-Batman impression, though maybe there's more than a little talent required to make those). My understanding is that you do need legitimate magical talent to summon an Outsider.
2. Time and effort are required to summon one, and even then it is dangerous for the summoner. Harry does a full ritual whenever he does anything of the sort. In Proven Guilty, there's a definite spell that builds energy to summon the Fetches. I don't think Justine had the time, and Eb is onscreen long enough before they show up that I don't think he did it, either.
This leaves the wizards we know are in Chicago, but aren't in that scene: Carlos, Chandler, Listens-to-Wind, Wild Bill, Yoshimo, Martha Liberty, and Cristos. Potential additional summoners (those who have enough power) include: Molly, Mab, Titania, and Sarissa. I don't think the Queens are mortal enough anymore to summon an Outsider, but Molly and Sarissa probably are. Odin and Ferrovax are out for the same reason. The Archive could do it; so could Marcone, I presume, though I find them unlikely.
Based solely on character history, I'm going to eliminate several: Listens-to-Wind, Wild Bill, and Yoshimo. LtW doesn't strike me as the type who'd do business with things that upset the natural order, and Wild Bill and Yoshimo get carried off by Drakul, presumed Dead or Turned.
That leaves us with Carlos, Martha Liberty, Cristos, and Chandler. It's possible that Carlos did it, and there is one interesting potential possibility: Carlos was tracking Harry at the time, and knew where he'd be.
Martha Liberty is a relatively unknown quantity. She's only had a handful of lines in the series, most of them supportive of Harry. She's also an odd one among Wizards: she lives with her descendants.
Cristos is pretty obviously a bad guy, but he also fights pretty hard in Battle Ground. Earth magic, it looked like. It's possible he's a stooge.
No, of the wizards in Chicago during Peace Talks, IF the cornerhounds were indeed summoned, my money is on Chandler being the culprit. We know a handful of things about Hounds of Tindalos that may (or may not) apply to cornerhounds: they are drawn to time travel. Chandler's specialty is messing with time. It may or may not have been intentional, but Steed is the only wizard explicitly stated by Jim to have an affinity for time-related magic, and now we have time-travel-related Outsiders show up.
3. Related to my last point, I think we're left with only two possibilities: A) the cornerhounds were indeed summoned, to kill Harry. My bets are on Chandler being the one responsible, though I concede Justine is possible, just not with any of the skills we can confirm she possesses (meaning it'd be a thus-far unseen ability of hers or Nemesis's). I would imagine those particular types of Outsiders would be the first ones to answer Chandler's summoning, mostly because of the aforementioned affinity with time.
The other possibility is the one I find more likely: B) the cornerhounds are there as a side effect of time travel happening behind the scenes. Either it's a time travelin' Harry on an adventure we'll see detailed in a future book, or it's Chandler. Remember, we have no idea what happens to Steed when Drakul tosses him through a portal. He may have used time travel magic to escape, or that might have been what Drakul did to him in the first place. Based on Odin's explanation of time travel (and the ripples on the past) during Cold Days, it's possible that someone bending the laws of time a few hours after the attack (during the Drakul fight) might have an impact several hours earlier, so I think it's possible that the cornerhounds showed up earlier due to such a ripple effect.
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I liked everything but the fetches. It took no time at all in the bathroom.
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I liked everything but the fetches. It took no time at all in the bathroom.
I read a theory that some were summoned, and some were sent directly. Meaning one of the Queens ordered it. The summoning that Harry detects and misses with his Play-Doh web was a summoning; the movie theater fetches and the bathroom attack were Sent instead. I don't recall which one the Scarecrow at the garage was, but my money is Sent, considering that was Eldest.
I do hope that any time travel stories involve us unraveling the many, many, many questions still lingering about Proven Guilty. My WAG is that a future time travel story will involve Harry going back to that time to make sure Molly becomes Harry's apprentice (and eventually the Winter Lady).
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There was no ritual other than Harry's in PG and only two people could have summoned or sent the fetches.
The most obvious candidate for summoning the Corner Hounds is some Harry look a like. The attack doesn't make sense in the context of the book. It's a one off. And the attackers are very specific in the lore.
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Opening the field to time travel shenanigans (which should be done, these are time-travel specific Outsiders), you can't really narrow down the suspects to just the list of characters we saw in PG. Time travel allows it to be anyone that fits the magical prowess criteria. People like Cowl and Kumori are fair candidates for our future time travel book occurring behind the scenes of our other case file books.
With that in mind, there's no reason to contort ourselves into knots trying to shoehorn in a PG character as the summoner. We don't yet have the summoner's motivation in order to summon cornerhounds nor proof of its intended target.