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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 07, 2021, 05:52:43 AM
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Alright so just an idea of mine.
Mab said that a marriage was needed between the White Court and Winter to form a strong alliance. I don't really buy that she needs them, but she also cannot lie. So here is what I think is going on. Mab see's Harry himself as a valuable member of Winter. He's her Knight, and something more (she hints about it). My guess is some sort of weapon against the Outside.
Anyways she see's Harry as a valuable member of Winter, but knows that she cannot in the mortal world offer much protection to him. After all, that's what he's for. He's her weapon in the mortal world. Harry being kicked out of the Council has made him very vulnerable. So Mab pushes for the marriage. This way Harry belongs to a group who can provide the kind of deterrent she can't. It's not the same as the White Council but by his marriage to Lara if someone outside the White Court attacked him, it could be seen as an attack on the White Court, and most people don't really want that kind of trouble.
So my opinion is that this alliance to strengthen Winter is actually about protecting Harry who as Winter Knight is Winter, so Mab isn't lying.
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It could be that you are right, but I think the look that Molly gave Lara after the kracken attack was foreshadowing and not mere dislike. I think Lara pushed Mab into some kind of bargain and suggesting this was a possible way out of it.
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Mab does few things for one reason. The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her. All at once.
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Mab does few things for one reason. The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her. All at once.
Maybe but I still want to know what that dirty look was about that Harry didn't catch.. I'm willing to
bet that there is a lot rotten in the state of Denmark that is being kept from Harry and Molly isn't at liberty to talk about.
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I thought it was obvious that Molly was jealous. It was why Mab told Harry to kill her if she(Mab) died. I think the part where the ground turns to frost under Molly's feet as they leave the castle, pretty much is Molly saying to Lara, you bitch you're stealing my man and I'm pissed.
I find this much more interesting.Mab glanced at me wearily. “You know what it is,” she said, “to sell pieces of your soul so that someone who will never know your name will have another chance at life.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 392). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
And this.“Certain aspects of my power have to do with choices I made when I was mortal,” she said. “There would be . . . compatibility issues. This is part of the task the Knight was designed for.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 395). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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I thought it was obvious that Molly was jealous. It was why Mab told Harry to kill her if she(Mab) died. I think the part where the ground turns to frost under Molly's feet as they leave the castle, pretty much is Molly saying to Lara, you bitch you're stealing my man and I'm pissed.
Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her. No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it.
Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died. Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.
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Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her. No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it.
Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died. Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.
Couple of points on Murphy - Molly knows Harry and she have been close since Molly was a kid. It would (and did) wreck Harry to lose her. But... Murphy also talked about wanting someone to grow old with... which cannot be Harry, we know wizards live a long time - at least a couple of centuries for laFortier, Eb, Langtry, and Luccio. That could be a problem waiting to happen. Also, well, Murphy is divorced twice. Not a good track record with men. So... possible fault lines Molly can see now. And... Molly can be playing the long game. Murphy, even by natural causes, likely had 40 years or so left. Harry had at least a couple centuries.... even if being the Knight gives him no benefit. Molly might have been letting Harry have his fling.... and when Murphy passed... Harry is grieving. Michael is older, he's likely gone. He's estranged from Carlos. Maybe he could talk to Billy, but.... most likely, he turns to his old dear friend and co-worker Molly....
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Couple of points on Murphy - Molly knows Harry and she have been close since Molly was a kid. It would (and did) wreck Harry to lose her. But... Murphy also talked about wanting someone to grow old with... which cannot be Harry, we know wizards live a long time - at least a couple of centuries for laFortier, Eb, Langtry, and Luccio. That could be a problem waiting to happen. Also, well, Murphy is divorced twice. Not a good track record with men. So... possible fault lines Molly can see now. And... Molly can be playing the long game. Murphy, even by natural causes, likely had 40 years or so left. Harry had at least a couple centuries.... even if being the Knight gives him no benefit. Molly might have been letting Harry have his fling.... and when Murphy passed... Harry is grieving. Michael is older, he's likely gone. He's estranged from Carlos. Maybe he could talk to Billy, but.... most likely, he turns to his old dear friend and co-worker Molly....
I'd go along with that except Lara appeared to be just as shocked at Mab's proposal as Harry. No, it was more about Mab lending Harry to Lara to repay a favor.. Remember the last time she did that?
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Yea, I think Murphy had a "rank" in Molly's mind, and she knew she was good for Harry too. Lara has neither thing going for her in Molly's view though. She's an interloper who could steal Harry away for the rest of his expected existence.
Had considered this, it was for "mutual benefit" after all, Mab doesn't need the WCVs for herself, but they'd certainly help fortify Harry's position.
* Although... Mab has a habit of putting Harry in tight spaces with things she believes could be comprised too..
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Except in that moment Harry was with Murphy and Molly didn't seem jealous of her. No, I think that Mab and Lara have something cooked up and Molly doesn't like it.
Yes, I liked those quotes as well, they fit with the conversation Mab had with Harry in Cold Days after Maeve died. Mab confessing that she was human once and has had to do terrible things for the sake of the world against the outside, and Harry is beginning to understand just what that means.
Familiarity breeds contempt. Murphy had always been there. Lara is an interloper. And Jim turned Molly into a eunuch.
The quotes are interesting to me because I believe they are some type of foreshadowing. Who was Mab before she was Mab? It got brought up at least twice in Battle Ground. Once by Mab and once by Korg.
The first suggests that Mab reached for power for many of the same reasons Harry did. To protect someone or some thing.
The second is more obscure and maybe more important. What choice did she make? She also says that the Winter Knight was created for this. If you have a dirty mind like me, one thing comes to mind. Lara is her daughter by Raith. That would certainly be a compatibility issue, don't you think? It could explain this.“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.” Mab’s face . . . . . . twisted into naked, ugly, absolute rage. Her body became so rigid, so immobile, that it could not possibly have belonged to a living thing. “Tell me,” Corb purred. “If he was yet among the living, do you think he would still love you? Would he be so proud of what you’ve become?”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The longer I read the more convinced I become that this has all happened before.
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The second is more obscure and maybe more important. What choice did she make? She also says that the Winter Knight was created for this. If you have a dirty mind like me, one thing comes to mind. Lara is her daughter by Raith. That would certainly be a compatibility issue, don't you think? It could explain this.
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“Old woman,” Corb taunted. “I remember you as a bawling brat. I remember your pimply face when you rode with the Conqueror. I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.” Mab’s face . . . . . . twisted into naked, ugly, absolute rage. Her body became so rigid, so immobile, that it could not possibly have belonged to a living thing. “Tell me,” Corb purred. “If he was yet among the living, do you think he would still love you? Would he be so proud of what you’ve become?”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 278-279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The longer I read the more convinced I become that this has all happened before.
History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter. Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?
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I'd go along with that except Lara appeared to be just as shocked at Mab's proposal as Harry. No, it was more about Mab lending Harry to Lara to repay a favor.. Remember the last time she did that?
Oh, I do agree that Lara seemed shocked to be gifted Harry. But she has mentioned a few times to Harry she could use a partner she respects (not loves) and she has wondered what it would be like to "throw down" with Harry, I think she called it. And Molly may be afraid if they have to be together and act a couple.. they may BECOME one.
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History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter. Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?
mwahaha the first thing I thought of when talking to Griff and he mentioned Oizys and moros was Harry is technically extended family to her. That'd make 3 siblings for this era too.
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History tends to repeat itself, but I don't know if I'd such a leap as to say that Lara is Mab's daughter. Are you saying that Lord Raith was at one time William the Conqueror?
I'm not saying anything. I'm looking for types of things that would make a relationship between Lara and Mab incompatible because of some choice made by Mab before she was Mab. That was one.
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Mab does few things for one reason. The marriage drives the White Council further away from him (hence closer to Mab), offers Harry protection he just lost, and somewhat wriggles out of a favor from Lara while putting a handle on her. All at once.
This is right. And, I might add, also teaches Molly a lesson that she needs to learn.
Oh, I do agree that Lara seemed shocked to be gifted Harry. But she has mentioned a few times to Harry she could use a partner she respects (not loves) and she has wondered what it would be like to "throw down" with Harry, I think she called it. And Molly may be afraid if they have to be together and act a couple.. they may BECOME one.
I think it's an interesting question whether Lara respects, fears or might actually have a thing for Harry. I'm not sure that Lara is capable of love -- it is, of course, difficult to love one's food and real love is an anathema to the White Court. Lara might be capable of affection, she certainly has some f-ed up motherly/sisterly affection for Thomas. She might be able to have affection for Harry. (Desire of course, is easy for Lara).
Personally, I think Lara might actually have a thing for Harry. Harry is not quite the white-knighting bumbling nerd-avatar that he once was. I think he might start resembling Id-Harry more and more often, and Id-Harry is definitely someone Lara would want to hang out with.
Yea, I think Murphy had a "rank" in Molly's mind, and she knew she was good for Harry too. Lara has neither thing going for her in Molly's view though. She's an interloper who could steal Harry away for the rest of his expected existence.
Had considered this, it was for "mutual benefit" after all, Mab doesn't need the WCVs for herself, but they'd certainly help fortify Harry's position.
* Although... Mab has a habit of putting Harry in tight spaces with things she believes could be comprised too..
I agree. Murphy definitely had "rank" on Molly here. If they were guys, I'd say this was a form of "Bros before Hos." Molly would never move on Harry unless Murphy was out of the picture for good. The fact that she died defending Harry makes this harder, but Molly at least has the benefit of knowing that she will not be Harry's rebound girl. In this way, Mab may have done Molly a solid, in the end.
Of course, she'll have to work around the Winter Lady thing, but there is one obvious solution to that problem.... removing Mab. Molly knows how to do it -- everyone on Demonreach the day that Lilly and Maeve died can work it out.
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* Although... Mab has a habit of putting Harry in tight spaces with things she believes could be comprised too..
Justine's infection was probably either from when she was a prisoner at Bianca's, or from someone in the white court. I'm not sure what motive there would be to infect someone they were intending for Susan to kill to complete her transformation ... so, perhaps Mab is playing the odds and throwing a grenade into the nest to flush out the other Nemfected who turned Justine.
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Justine's infection was probably either from when she was a prisoner at Bianca's, or from someone in the white court. I'm not sure what motive there would be to infect someone they were intending for Susan to kill to complete her transformation ... so, perhaps Mab is playing the odds and throwing a grenade into the nest to flush out the other Nemfected who turned Justine.
Perhaps it was Lord Raith who saw to it that she was infected. If I remember correctly he was behind her being "food" for Thomas, maybe to eventually kill him. Speaking of Bianca, interesting that both Susan and Justine were her prisoner, the Reds half turned Susan, but not Justine, nor did they eat her.. Could she already have been infected thus protected by HWWB?
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Familiarity breeds contempt. Murphy had always been there. Lara is an interloper.
This is true but there may be another reason. Molly even without the Winter Mantle could live for centuries, just like Harry. Murphy, even if reaching her 80's would still leave Molly, and Harry young as wizards. So Molly could let Harry, and Murphy have a happy relationship, and then be there for Harry when Murphy was gone. Not the case with Lara. Not sure if this is why she's mad, but it would make some sense.
On the other hand she may be aware that Mab is using Lara's sex to fire up the Winter Mantle that Harry always pushes away. Molly knows it's another way for Mab to get Harry to accept the Mantle.
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Perhaps it was Lord Raith who saw to it that she was infected. If I remember correctly he was behind her being "food" for Thomas, maybe to eventually kill him. Speaking of Bianca, interesting that both Susan and Justine were her prisoner, the Reds half turned Susan, but not Justine, nor did they eat her.. Could she already have been infected thus protected by HWWB?
🤔😳 in that case she was supposed to die to Thomas though, which the only logical reasoning for that is if it'd have had made Thomas the new host. I've wondered if Thomas wasn't targeted at other times too.. like what shagnasty did to him, and the possibility it now never happened.(time shenanigans!)
On the Lara vs Molly thing.. I kinda think Mabs intentionally pushing that button knowing something will happen. Early on it appears the lady and knight work closely together, but Harry and Molly haven't really done that. I suspect the knight and lady play a different role to each other and Mabs throwing in a bit of chaos to see what comes of it.
** Wait, wait... This is Mab we're talking about. She's doing at LEAST three of these things at once.
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On the Lara vs Molly thing.. I kinda think Mabs intentionally pushing that button knowing something will happen. Early on it appears the lady and knight work closely together, but Harry and Molly haven't really done that. I suspect the knight and lady play a different role to each other and Mabs throwing in a bit of chaos to see what comes of it.
** Wait, wait... This is Mab we're talking about. She's doing at LEAST three of these things at once.
I totally doubt that Mab is throwing a bit of chaos to see what comes of it. For this reason if no other, she knows that they are close to the BAT, she knows what Harry is, the last thing she'd want to do is jeopardize the defense of the Gates and the defense of the world she is charged with.
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Now that I've reread it, Beside says a couple of years, but his time sense seems to be temporally fluid. Maybe Cold Days? The boys were in town and they got Cat Sith. ??????
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Now that I've reread it, Beside says a couple of years, but his time sense seems to be temporally fluid. Maybe Cold Days? The boys were in town and they got Cat Sith. ??????
Yeah, but Lea got the infected Knife in Grave Peril.. Aurora got infected at some point before Summer Knight, and before that sixteen year old Harry battled He Who Walks Behind.. Oh and Madge also called him up in Blood Rites.. So they have been around for some time, quietly doing their thing.. We don't know how they are planning their side of the game, Justine could have been infected at anytime.
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Molly genuinely cares for Harry and Lara is not exactly the right partner for him.
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I totally doubt that Mab is throwing a bit of chaos to see what comes of it. For this reason if no other, she knows that they are close to the BAT, she knows what Harry is, the last thing she'd want to do is jeopardize the defense of the Gates and the defense of the world she is charged with.
Mab gambles. It's what she is. The idea she wouldn't risk Harry for her own plans is directly counter to her attitude and behavior.
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Mab also might want to punish Lara for taking some of the minor Fae captive in the past. Harry liberated them later. Don't know if she feels obligated toward them. Remember Mab had Harry really screw over over Nick / Andriel while paying back a favor. Molly loves Harry and does not want him to be married to a WCV who will want to warp his mind and feed on him. It could also give Harry more protection with Lara backing him up as stated by others. I think Lara respects, likes, desires and fears Harry. Mab seems very fond of Harry and protective. I think she needs a starborn wizard WK in the upcoming war with the Outsiders. Mab might also want to help Lara against the next threat that the Outsiders manipulate to weaken factions that can oppose them.
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I also think Mab wants a 'handle' on Lara, even disregarding any nefarious desires in Lara's direction. Lara is a rising star, after decades of the WCV's being a passive player. Mab wants to be in on the ground before they become a power that is too big to handle, and Harry's just the guy to keep them from going haywire (remember that other vampire court that got uppity around him?). And if Lara truly is fond of Harry, he also solidifies Mab's alliance.
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Mab also might want to punish Lara for taking some of the minor Fae captive in the past. Harry liberated them later. Don't know if she feels obligated toward them. Remember Mab had Harry really screw over over Nick / Andriel while paying back a favor. Molly loves Harry and does not want him to be married to a WCV who will want to warp his mind and feed on him. It could also give Harry more protection with Lara backing him up as stated by others. I think Lara respects, likes, desires and fears Harry. Mab seems very fond of Harry and protective. I think she needs a starborn wizard WK in the upcoming war with the Outsiders. Mab might also want to help Lara against the next threat that the Outsiders manipulate to weaken factions that can oppose them.
The were wyldfae at that time.
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The were wyldfae at that time.
Sure, but Mab and Titania seem to consider wyldfae a bit like the White Council considers humans: not strictly theirs, but they have a vested interest. So you can bargain with one wyldfae, or murder a couple, but when you go after them in job lots, Mab and Titania will take an interest.
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Harry settled for the Wyld Fae and I suspect Mab would consider it settled from her point of view. Why Lara did it might interest Mab more since it was more or lest a test to see
what Mab how restrained Mab was at Arctis Tor at that point.
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Sure, but Mab and Titania seem to consider wyldfae a bit like the White Council considers humans: not strictly theirs, but they have a vested interest. So you can bargain with one wyldfae, or murder a couple, but when you go after them in job lots, Mab and Titania will take an interest.
But who is the Za'Lord of his own army of wyldfae? Mab remarks in Summer Knight that it is unusual for anyone to be able to have any kind of control the Fae, even those considered the least like Toot and Company. Then in Battle Ground Harry freaks out members of the Senior Council because he does have his own effective little army.
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Think that was in part a reference to the origins of the Sidhe themselves. From what I reckon they started out as beings wizards used to help perform magic (like the deal Harry does with toot, except they ask for them to use some of their innate magic) gaining power and stature from the deals and the perception of them as wielders of fantastic power, ergo gaining it by proxy. Eventually the original beings becoming mantle's of power of course. Or conversely, the ones who repeatedly summoned them gaining such power from it, banner like into an actual power base. All conjecture of course, but it seems accurate in the druid into wizard transition.
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In BG, I think Harry turned heads because he genuinely surprised the big players. They weren't aware of how chummy Harry had become with the Little Folk (since they're mostly ignored by them and nobody had real success uniting them before).
Remember that a group like that was enough for Harry to take down Aurora before other power ups. That that was how he did it is probably not widely known, but uniting the Little Folk is not a small feat to totally escape notice.
Sure, but Mab and Titania seem to consider wyldfae a bit like the White Council considers humans: not strictly theirs, but they have a vested interest. So you can bargain with one wyldfae, or murder a couple, but when you go after them in job lots, Mab and Titania will take an interest.
Yeah, I think that's a really good analogy.
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In BG, I think Harry turned heads because he genuinely surprised the big players. They weren't aware of how chummy Harry had become with the Little Folk (since they're mostly ignored by them and nobody had real success uniting them before).
Remember that a group like that was enough for Harry to take down Aurora before other power ups. That that was how he did it is probably not widely known, but uniting the Little Folk is not a small feat to totally escape notice.
Yeah, I think that's a really good analogy.
Pretty much, it's one thing to hear that he's got a couple dozen pixie minions, it's another to see those couple dozen pixies are armed, armoured and in perfect sync and there's a couple million irregulars on call who are also organised.
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Pretty much, it's one thing to hear that he's got a couple dozen pixie minions, it's another to see those couple dozen pixies are armed, armoured and in perfect sync and there's a couple million irregulars on call who are also organised.
Or that it is way more than a couple of dozen, that they have a general, are organized, and are loyal to Harry. The impression I got in the early books, is that the little Folk were not only mostly ignored by both Courts, but abused as well. Harry gained their respect and loyalty the old fashioned way, he earned it. For starters he understood their limitations and gave his directions accordingly. Then he rewarded them well for services rendered, finally he freed them from slavery and abuse by the White Court because it was the right thing to do, not in hope of being repaid for doing it. However for that very thing, he was repaid with loyalty that cannot be bought..
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Harry settled for the Wyld Fae and I suspect Mab would consider it settled from her point of view. Why Lara did it might interest Mab more since it was more or lest a test to see what Mab how restrained Mab was at Arctis Tor at that point.
Mab may also see that their loyalty to HER liegeman Harry makes them hers by transference.
Though - will their loyalty waver in the face of Harry becoming.. um... allied to their enslaver, even under Mab's order? Though Lara was on the Fae side in the Battle of Chicago.
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Sure, but Mab and Titania seem to consider wyldfae a bit like the White Council considers humans: not strictly theirs, but they have a vested interest. So you can bargain with one wyldfae, or murder a couple, but when you go after them in job lots, Mab and Titania will take an interest.
I would tweak the White Council claim just a bit - not humans as their interest, but minor practitioners. Like when Harry and Carlos challenged on their behalf in the duel right before the Battle of the Deeps.
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In BG, I think Harry turned heads because he genuinely surprised the big players. They weren't aware of how chummy Harry had become with the Little Folk (since they're mostly ignored by them and nobody had real success uniting them before).
Remember that a group like that was enough for Harry to take down Aurora before other power ups. That that was how he did it is probably not widely known, but uniting the Little Folk is not a small feat to totally escape notice.
Yeah, I think that's a really good analogy.
It may also be a clue of what's to come... Harry leading the Wild Fae. Perhaps Kringle is grooming him for the job, and Dresden isn't even aware of it.
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I would tweak the White Council claim just a bit - not humans as their interest, but minor practitioners. Like when Harry and Carlos challenged on their behalf in the duel right before the Battle of the Deeps.
I believe that was strictly Harry if I remember correctly, that is why Toot tells him that it just isn't because of the pizza that he and his friends are loyal to him.
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I believe that was strictly Harry if I remember correctly, that is why Toot tells him that it just isn't because of the pizza that he and his friends are loyal to him.
Harry was challenging on the behalf of the Ordo Lebes, the minor human wizards who were below Council level. Granny Malvora was saying they were not signatories, but Harry argued they were in the interests of the Council, and Papa Raith let it go. Harry having them freed in his name after the fight was just a bonus.