ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 03, 2021, 03:36:49 AM
-
So Carlos said that if Harry steps out of line they will send Eb to take him out (or Eb gets executed)... So obviously this is going to happen. What do you see Eb doing? Will he come after Dresden, get executed, or turn on the White Council? If he turns on the White Council what do you see him doing?
Could we have a White Council civil war?
-
I think a civil war of sorts may happen - Gray Council vs Black Council style. People choosing between profession and relationships. Perhaps Eb would lead one side, and The Merlin leads the other, with a few folk staying out of the conflict (like the gatekeeper)
-
So Carlos said that if Harry steps out of line they will send Eb to take him out (or Eb gets executed)... So obviously this is going to happen. What do you see Eb doing? Will he come after Dresden, get executed, or turn on the White Council? If he turns on the White Council what do you see him doing?
Could we have a White Council civil war?
We're absolutely on track for a White Council civil war (hopefully with less offscreen action than the last two wars) and Ebenezar potentially defying the council is another potential spark flying through the air near the powderkeg.
-
We're absolutely on track for a White Council civil war (hopefully with less offscreen action than the last two wars) and Ebenezar potentially defying the council is another potential spark flying through the air near the powderkeg.
I think it is going to be difficult to predict how Eb will act, especially when he hears about Harry's pending engagement. No, he won't kill his grandson, or will he? Thinking better he's dead than the sex puppet of a White Court Vamp.
-
We're absolutely on track for a White Council civil war (hopefully with less offscreen action than the last two wars) and Ebenezar potentially defying the council is another potential spark flying through the air near the powderkeg.
I agree, and I am looking forward to it. A Langtry versus McCoy showdown would be epic. Although, I think Jim's style would be more in the fashion of a divide and conquer scenario by the Black Council.
So the power keg will explode, and too late the Senior Council and others will realise they have been set-up, and while the White Council is infighting they will either be wiped out or amalgamated into a new organisation. Even Eb doesn't wish the White Council to go down, and he'd die to defend it. Even Harry realises the world might be lesser for it (as it stands) without the White Council. That being said, they won't leave him alone and will force the issue.
I think it is going to be difficult to predict how Eb will act, especially when he hears about Harry's pending engagement. No, he won't kill his grandson, or will he? Thinking better he's dead than the sex puppet of a White Court Vamp.
Eb would kill the entire White Court before allowing that to happen. Unless he has some reason not to. I still find it odd that he gave up trying to kill the White King.
-
Eb would kill the entire White Court before allowing that to happen. Unless he has some reason not to. I still find it odd that he gave up trying to kill the White King.
Eb is a busy man, I think he tried at least three times to kill Raith, but his magic wouldn't touch him.. If Eb used the Black Staff on him and it still didn't work, time to move on. Besides Eb may have figured out that Margaret's death curse was doing it's job, and Lord Raith was effectively neutralized.
-
The question is: Who knows that Eb is Harry's grandfather?
If Langtry does, he's stuck with eliminating Harry legally using the Wardens- difficult without Morgan and with Lucio down.
If he doesn't, I look forward to the scene where he orders Eb and then plays Roshambeau with the one wizard who doesn't care about his wards.
-
The question is: Who knows that Eb is Harry's grandfather?
If Langtry does, he's stuck with eliminating Harry legally using the Wardens- difficult without Morgan and with Lucio down.
If he doesn't, I look forward to the scene where he orders Eb and then plays Roshambeau with the one wizard who doesn't care about his wards.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rashid knows since he was good friends with Margaret. Nor would I be shocked if Listen to Winds knows, but I doubt anyone beyond that knows.
-
Arianna knew, so there's a chance Nemesis knows, which means ant ally of Nemesis can be told, and they can quietly disseminate the info as much as needed. I'd say it's not much of a secret to those with the most knowledge.
-
The vampire leaders knew from Maggie Sr’s dinner argument. I’d be surprised if any senior council member was unaware except maybe Cristos tbh.
-
Arianna knew, so there's a chance Nemesis knows, which means ant ally of Nemesis can be told, and they can quietly disseminate the info as much as needed. I'd say it's not much of a secret to those with the most knowledge.
Yes, I thought we were just talking about with in the White Council, but you're right.
-
Eb is a busy man, I think he tried at least three times to kill Raith, but his magic wouldn't touch him.. If Eb used the Black Staff on him and it still didn't work, time to move on. Besides Eb may have figured out that Margaret's death curse was doing it's job, and Lord Raith was effectively neutralized.
Sure he is, but considering what he did to Casaverde I hardly think he would have trouble with nuking them. Hell, I hardly think he would have trouble with them if he walked in the front door. Also, even more strange is that he didn't realise Lord Raith's weakness to physical objects. Sure, magic slides off him. Harry had no problem hurling an object with magic at him. Eb could have nuked Raith any time he liked. I think he either lied about the attempts, which is why he's so touchy. He doesn't want Harry to find out whatever grubby deal he has going with them. Or Eb was told specifically not to and there are other protections in place.
Even then, why not hire another assassin who specialises in physical kills rather than magic? Goodman Grey would be a great choice. I am sure there are others. Either Eb never tried or he gave up easily because he was forced to. I don't believe Eb went "Oh well, too hard - guess I'll go back to planting corn". He's not the sort. He's made earthquakes happen and volcanos erupt. Also, it isn't like you need to kill the White King. You could kill the others and imprison the White King.
The question is: Who knows that Eb is Harry's grandfather?
If Langtry does, he's stuck with eliminating Harry legally using the Wardens- difficult without Morgan and with Lucio down.
If he doesn't, I look forward to the scene where he orders Eb and then plays Roshambeau with the one wizard who doesn't care about his wards.
Oh, I think the Merlin knows. He's the Merlin after all. Even if not...he could work it out eventually. Not to mention, Eb does care about the Merlin's wards. He is acknowledged to have the best ones. Even Eb admits they are good. I think that Eb would have to bring his A-game for Langtry.
-
I agree, and I am looking forward to it. A Langtry versus McCoy showdown would be epic. Although, I think Jim's style would be more in the fashion of a divide and conquer scenario by the Black Council.
I mean, strongest spear vs strongest shield is a classic for a reason, it'd be fun to see, it's a shame that Harry would have to be cuffed to a wall or something to actually spectate it properly.
-
I think Eb leaves the Counsel before shit hits the fan. And takes Luccio and a bunch with him. including Carlos.. A friend is a friend is a friend.
-
I mean, strongest spear vs strongest shield is a classic for a reason, it'd be fun to see, it's a shame that Harry would have to be cuffed to a wall or something to actually spectate it properly.
Jim did say he'd show them fighting in a short story or spin off. That whole thing where they fought on opposite sides in the French-Indian war.
Harry could be injured or something. Hardly abnormal for him. I am not going to rule out a small duel between them. Maybe even one like Harry and Eb have, which gets interrupted. Maybe by the Black Council.
-
Sure he is, but considering what he did to Casaverde I hardly think he would have trouble with nuking them. Hell, I hardly think he would have trouble with them if he walked in the front door. Also, even more strange is that he didn't realise Lord Raith's weakness to physical objects. Sure, magic slides off him. Harry had no problem hurling an object with magic at him. Eb could have nuked Raith any time he liked. I think he either lied about the attempts, which is why he's so touchy. He doesn't want Harry to find out whatever grubby deal he has going with them. Or Eb was told specifically not to and there are other protections in place.
How do you define "nuke"? Maybe he could, but there are other things to consider, like the Accords.
So he wouldn't want to draw attention doing it. I like the idea of hiring Mr Grey, or heck, Kincaid for that matter, a bullet from a sniper rifle would be effective. Or one would think, just how old is Lord Raith anyway? One doesn't get to live that long, even a vamp, without learning a thing or two about survival.
-
Lara is of a similar age as Luccio, isn't she? Papa Raith is likely as old or older than Eb.
A sniper rifle isn't going to kill a whampire like it would a wizard, so that's out. For a satellite drop, Eb would need to know that Papa Raith was actually underneath the blast zone. I'd guess that tracking spells wash off him just as much as regular evocation magic. It's probably not a good idea to go after the White King unless you can be sure you get him in one attack. Otherwise, you're on the top of his priority list.
-
How do you define "nuke"? Maybe he could, but there are other things to consider, like the Accords.
So he wouldn't want to draw attention doing it. I like the idea of hiring Mr Grey, or heck, Kincaid for that matter, a bullet from a sniper rifle would be effective. Or one would think, just how old is Lord Raith anyway? One doesn't get to live that long, even a vamp, without learning a thing or two about survival.
A massive display of destructive power. Like hurling an asteroid at a target, or erupting the ground beneath them etc. Very much in Eb's wheelhouse. Yeah see, the White Court actually broke the Accords by killing Maggie...not to mention, would Eb be really worried about Mab at that point? He hasn't shown the most level head when he's upset. He also could do it in less obvious ways I'd imagine.
Can't use Kincaid given the history between him and McCoy. Can't really use Grey because he didn't much like Margaret. But someone of that level would be appropriate.
Well that's true about Raith, but the White Court's biggest defence is being everyone's friend, and never being tied to anything. The less overt they are, the better. Maybe Raith really was that well protected. Maybe the White Council told Eb not to and made him listen. Or maybe...Eb isn't on the level. He definitely has some weird history with Lara. Hell, he could have dated her considering her age.
Lara is of a similar age as Luccio, isn't she? Papa Raith is likely as old or older than Eb.
A sniper rifle isn't going to kill a whampire like it would a wizard, so that's out. For a satellite drop, Eb would need to know that Papa Raith was actually underneath the blast zone. I'd guess that tracking spells wash off him just as much as regular evocation magic. It's probably not a good idea to go after the White King unless you can be sure you get him in one attack. Otherwise, you're on the top of his priority list.
Oh no, Lara is older than Luccio. Papa Raith is far, far older. He quite possibly predates the building of Rome. I believe there's a quote about him having 2000 years of paranoia built up.
Why wouldn't a sniper rifle work? Especially with the right bullet? White Court can heal...if they don't suffer catastrophic damage to their structure. I'd say a sniper rifle bullet to the head would do the trick.
As for knowing where Raith is, that's required for some magic, sure. But not all. There's such a thing as sympathetic magic and thaumaturgy. Well, Lord Raith can't avoid magic entirely because Eb got three attempts in (if you go by Ebenezar's word). Even without that it's really just a planning issue, which comes down to intel gathering. I don't doubt Eb could do that well enough.
And yet, Eb supposedly took three hits at the White King to no reprisals. Very fishy. Either the White's were scared of him, or he didn't try very hard/at all.
-
A massive display of destructive power. Like hurling an asteroid at a target, or erupting the ground beneath them etc. Very much in Eb's wheelhouse. Yeah see, the White Court actually broke the Accords by killing Maggie...not to mention, would Eb be really worried about Mab at that point? He hasn't shown the most level head when he's upset. He also could do it in less obvious ways I'd imagine.
Can't use Kincaid given the history between him and McCoy. Can't really use Grey because he didn't much like Margaret. But someone of that level would be appropriate.
One problem with that is the Raith estate is very near the City of Chicago and in a heavily populated area. Could he do it? Yeah, but was it worth the attention, death, and destruction it bring? I'm not sure if Margaret's murder would effect the Accords, because in a sense though she was now married to Malcolm it was the result of a family squabble because Margaret had been living with Raith.. A huge disaster could have brought the same kind of unwanted attention to the supernatural world as the Battle of Chicago did, that would make the members of the Accords most unhappy.
Eb can be willfully and selectively blind to a lot of stuff, i.e. thinking Margaret lived with Raith for a number of years and didn't have sex with him?
-
Oh no, Lara is older than Luccio. Papa Raith is far, far older. He quite possibly predates the building of Rome. I believe there's a quote about him having 2000 years of paranoia built up.
Why wouldn't a sniper rifle work? Especially with the right bullet? White Court can heal...if they don't suffer catastrophic damage to their structure. I'd say a sniper rifle bullet to the head would do the trick.
As for knowing where Raith is, that's required for some magic, sure. But not all. There's such a thing as sympathetic magic and thaumaturgy. Well, Lord Raith can't avoid magic entirely because Eb got three attempts in (if you go by Ebenezar's word). Even without that it's really just a planning issue, which comes down to intel gathering. I don't doubt Eb could do that well enough.
And yet, Eb supposedly took three hits at the White King to no reprisals. Very fishy. Either the White's were scared of him, or he didn't try very hard/at all.
I found the WoJ, Papa Raith is around 2000 years old total. The White Court's official language is Etruscan, so their court likely does predate Rome, but not Papa Raith himself.
I'm still thinking Lara is of a similar age to Luccio tbh, like born between Langtry and Luccio. I can't find references to it explicitly, but she mentions living in Japan for a big chunk of the 1700's in PT and Luccio was born late 1700's early 1800's since she can barely remember the War of 1812.
A sniper bullet would put a hole in a whampire's head, but I don't think it would be enough to reliably put one down by itself. Lara shook off a grenade in the face.
Thaumaturgy requires a metaphysical link to the target. Raith's protection is going to make that nigh impossible. He's magical teflon. That means magical attacks are going to be tougher to pull off. A satellite drop could be area targeted to Chateau Raith, but what if Papa Raith was in the Deeps and it misses? Gathering information on a foreign head of state seems harder than you make it out to be. Especially when he somehow stymies all your best tools. Eb evidently took three shots and all three didn't work. Papa Raith couldn't hit back because of Maggie Sr's curse, so he took a hit to his standing in the White Court and didn't retaliate.
Eb can be willfully and selectively blind to a lot of stuff, i.e. thinking Margaret lived with Raith for a number of years and didn't have sex with him?
Was that actually known information, though? I get the sense that Maggie Sr was hopping everywhere throughout the NN for the last portion of her life (cough cough setting up the Circle cough cough). I don't think where she was living was really public information beyond she had been seen with lots and lots of unsavory folks.
-
Was that actually known information, though? I get the sense that Maggie Sr was hopping everywhere throughout the NN for the last portion of her life (cough cough setting up the Circle cough cough). I don't think where she was living was really public information beyond she had been seen with lots and lots of unsavory folks.
Very possible, but at the same time Eb had dinner with Margaret and Lord Raith from time to time.
That is how Ariana got wind or figured out that she was Eb's daughter.. So at the very least Eb knew Margaret was tight with vamps, and if she showed up to more than one dinner with Lord Raith, he should have been able to put two and two together. This went on for a number of years, let's not forget that Thomas was at least five when Margaret dumped Lord Raith for Malcolm.
-
Very possible, but at the same time Eb had dinner with Margaret and Lord Raith from time to time.
That is how Ariana got wind or figured out that she was Eb's daughter.. So at the very least Eb knew Margaret was tight with vamps, and if she showed up to more than one dinner with Lord Raith, he should have been able to put two and two together. This went on for a number of years, let's not forget that Thomas was at least five when Margaret dumped Lord Raith for Malcolm.
Odin has lunch with Uriel from time to time, but we don't assume they live together. ;D
I don't think Eb and Maggie Sr had many lines of communication open in her later years and she's appearing so many unpleasant places all the time, so assuming that she was sleeping with Papa Raith is an understandable stretch to me. Why would a powerful wizard make such a bad decision to sleep with a sex vampire? They would have thought that another explanation was simpler.
-
I still think the simplest explanation is that pappa wraith on a full tank is extremely tough. Yes a large caliber bullet to the head would (perhaps) kill the other WC vampires, but I think they are also in a totally different weight class than him. If Lara is from around 1700 and he is from around year 0 then he is six times older. Maybe Eb did drop a satelite on him, but it did not kill him. Or maybe he tried to drop a satelite on him but his super hearing picked it up and he was so fast that he could run away in time? If he could rip the life force from someone with a kiss maybe Goodman Grey would not have fared so well. Maybe when he was with a full tank he did not have to settle for mortal dominated henchmen, he could have had his own dominated pet shapeshifter (or something else)
The simplest explanation as to why someone lives for 2000 years with a lot of enemies is that they are very hard to kill. I cannot imagine that Eb is the first one he pissed off.
-
I still think the simplest explanation is that pappa wraith on a full tank is extremely tough. Yes a large caliber bullet to the head would (perhaps) kill the other WC vampires, but I think they are also in a totally different weight class than him. If Lara is from around 1700 and he is from around year 0 then he is six times older. Maybe Eb did drop a satelite on him, but it did not kill him. Or maybe he tried to drop a satelite on him but his super hearing picked it up and he was so fast that he could run away in time? If he could rip the life force from someone with a kiss maybe Goodman Grey would not have fared so well. Maybe when he was with a full tank he did not have to settle for mortal dominated henchmen, he could have had his own dominated pet shapeshifter (or something else)
The simplest explanation as to why someone lives for 2000 years with a lot of enemies is that they are very hard to kill. I cannot imagine that Eb is the first one he pissed off.
-
I don't think that McCoy is going to do much, I think we've seen plenty of foreshadowing that he's going to die soon. Not in combat or anything like that, he's going to stroke out.
I think he's going to die, give the Blackstaff to Harry and that will kick off the White Council civil war.
-
Yes a large caliber bullet to the head would (perhaps) kill the other WC vampires, but I think they are also in a totally different weight class than him.
Kincaid probably deals in ammunition that would do more like decapitation than hole-through-head, but Ebenezar possibly hates Kincaid even more than he does Lord Raith, so there's no way he's going there for a contract. Kincaid would probably refuse a contract there anyway on the premise Eb was probably setting him up to go on a suicide mission.
-
I don't think that McCoy is going to do much, I think we've seen plenty of foreshadowing that he's going to die soon. Not in combat or anything like that, he's going to stroke out.
I think he's going to die, give the Blackstaff to Harry and that will kick off the White Council civil war.
I am still in the Eb is suffering from dementia group, not serious yet, but there are signs. Also I think what is making it worse is he is totally conflicted between his loyalty to the Council and his love for his grandson. Think how much easier it would be for everyone if Eb would just sit Harry down and tell him the truth about everything!
-
Kincaid probably deals in ammunition that would do more like decapitation than hole-through-head, but Ebenezar possibly hates Kincaid even more than he does Lord Raith, so there's no way he's going there for a contract. Kincaid would probably refuse a contract there anyway on the premise Eb was probably setting him up to go on a suicide mission.
Yeah, at the very least, I think going Marcone's route with a historical bullet would be a necessity to feel comfortable taking a shot at Papa Raith. Kincaid used mundane bullets on Harry.
-
I could see a young group like the Librarians quietly acquiring the weapons used by Bonnie and Clyde back in the 1930's, and keeping them in a safe to be used against Wamps.
(https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/bonnclydedabbs-17.jpg)
-
I could see a young group like the Librarians quietly acquiring the weapons used by Bonnie and Clyde back in the 1930's, and keeping them in a safe to be used against Wamps.
(https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/bonnclydedabbs-17.jpg)
Is it important that the bullets came from historical figures or they killed historical figures? Or maybe either/or?
I could certainly seem them scoop up John Wilkes Booth's bullet along those lines. Assuming they know the value like Marcone does.
-
Yeah see, the White Court actually broke the Accords by killing Maggie...
Proof, please. How would killing Maggie count as breaking the Accords?
If they killed her at a reception where she was a guest, sure- but it wasn't that kind of situation. Harry didn't violate the Accords by killing Bianca- he granted the power to the shades of her victims to do it. But they did it of their own free will independent of Harry. That's why the war was Red Court vs. White Council- no violation of the Accords, everyone else stayed out of it.
Regarding the bullets: I think Jim's going for "A bullet that killed a hero is a hero killing bullet" kind of situation- those with great destinies that were broken gaining metaphysical mass. The bullet from Nelson is firing with the force of Nelson's life.
Regarding Papa Raith- he killed his brother by tossing him from an airplane. Papa Raith is 2k years old, and has lead the White Court for some time. Baby brother was probably not a mere few centuries old. Nice nod towards the Raiths realizing Papa had lost his mojo.
-
Proof, please. How would killing Maggie count as breaking the Accords?
If they killed her at a reception where she was a guest, sure- but it wasn't that kind of situation. Harry didn't violate the Accords by killing Bianca- he granted the power to the shades of her victims to do it. But they did it of their own free will independent of Harry. That's why the war was Red Court vs. White Council- no violation of the Accords, everyone else stayed out of it.
Regarding the bullets: I think Jim's going for "A bullet that killed a hero is a hero killing bullet" kind of situation- those with great destinies that were broken gaining metaphysical mass. The bullet from Nelson is firing with the force of Nelson's life.
Regarding Papa Raith- he killed his brother by tossing him from an airplane. Papa Raith is 2k years old, and has lead the White Court for some time. Baby brother was probably not a mere few centuries old. Nice nod towards the Raiths realizing Papa had lost his mojo.
The Accords wouldn't be broken per se, but killing a wizard of the White Council would give the WC an actionable grievance against the White Court (assuming it could be proven to a given standard blah blah). That kind of grievance can be settled sometimes with a weregild or higher stakes including war depending on the moods of the Accorded nations. My understanding with the WC-RC war was that both parties wronged each other, so other nations had an out to stay neutral.
-
Is it important that the bullets came from historical figures or they killed historical figures? Or maybe either/or?
I could certainly seem them scoop up John Wilkes Booth's bullet along those lines. Assuming they know the value like Marcone does.
It's not the historical aspect, or at least to my suggestion for their use. It's that they're bullets and guns that may have been handled and given between two people that could be in True Love.
Their historical value only comes into play because their love and their crime spree would be public knowledge, and therefore would make it easier to find out about than bullets and guns given to and handled by True Loves that are anonymous and unknown.
-
It's not the historical aspect, or at least to my suggestion for their use. It's that they're bullets and guns that may have been handled and given between two people that could be in True Love.
Their historical value only comes into play because their love and their crime spree would be public knowledge, and therefore would make it easier to find out about than bullets and guns given to and handled by True Loves that are anonymous and unknown.
Ah whampire burning love bullets instead of Marcone bullets. Gotcha
-
Ah whampire burning love bullets instead of Marcone bullets. Gotcha
Yeah. Explicitly to go after Wamps. I would expect the Librarians to be collectors of artifacts as well as knowledge. Or I hope. Just maybe not in a magical warehouse...
-
Yeah. Explicitly to go after Wamps. I would expect the Librarians to be collectors of artifacts as well as knowledge. Or I hope. Just maybe not in a magical warehouse...
But they have the Smithsonian right there. That's too good not to use .
-
But they have the Smithsonian right there. That's too good not to use .
The Smithsonian is so big, I imagine they could hide all sorts of things. But hopefully the more dangerous items would be away from the capital.
Still, I'd love a side series about them.
-
First, Ebenezer is bound to warn Harry that White Council is thinking of taking him out, even if formal charges haven't been made against him yet. The second thing to remember is Ebenezer is capable of doing subtle deadly magic. I doubt he tried to bring a satellite down on Lord Raith's head.
I could see Eb trying some kind of entropy curse on Lara, perhaps think that would even the scales for what her father did to his daughter. However, should this occur, I won't be surprised if afterwards Ebenezer warns Harry that Lara is immune to magical attacks, which would raise the question of how Eb could know that.
-
First, Ebenezer is bound to warn Harry that White Council is thinking of taking him out, even if formal charges haven't been made against him yet. The second thing to remember is Ebenezer is capable of doing subtle deadly magic. I doubt he tried to bring a satellite down on Lord Raith's head.
I could see Eb trying some kind of entropy curse on Lara, perhaps think that would even the scales for what her father did to his daughter. However, should this occur, I won't be surprised if afterwards Ebenezer warns Harry that Lara is immune to magical attacks, which would raise the question of how Eb could know that.
Been a hard week so I am a bit confused, if Eb tries an entrophy curse on Lara and it is successful. Then she is dead right? So what's to warn Harry about? I can see Eb admitting to it, and telling Harry about it because it would put him in a tough spot.
-
Yeah. Explicitly to go after Wamps. I would expect the Librarians to be collectors of artifacts as well as knowledge. Or I hope. Just maybe not in a magical warehouse...
Did you ever watch the Highlander TV show? Well on the show there are The Watchers. They are supposed to watch, and catalog the things that go on with Immortals but to never interfere. So they pretty much know everything about the Immortals but the Immortals don't really know about them. Anyways at one point a group of them decide to start killing the Immortals. The Immortals who are great at hiding, and combat (from centuries of experience) didn't really know what was hitting them or how to respond.
I could see something like that happening. I mean when the Red Court used mortals who used poison gas to get past the Wardens wards, it was very effective. So a super secret organization with vast resources, technology, information, and weaknesses of the supernatural community could do quite a lot if they felt it necessary.
I think if they did something it would be ultra assassin stuff that left no real trace, and not something big and flashy.
-
I found the WoJ, Papa Raith is around 2000 years old total. The White Court's official language is Etruscan, so their court likely does predate Rome, but not Papa Raith himself.
I'm still thinking Lara is of a similar age to Luccio tbh, like born between Langtry and Luccio. I can't find references to it explicitly, but she mentions living in Japan for a big chunk of the 1700's in PT and Luccio was born late 1700's early 1800's since she can barely remember the War of 1812.
A sniper bullet would put a hole in a whampire's head, but I don't think it would be enough to reliably put one down by itself. Lara shook off a grenade in the face.
Thaumaturgy requires a metaphysical link to the target. Raith's protection is going to make that nigh impossible. He's magical teflon. That means magical attacks are going to be tougher to pull off. A satellite drop could be area targeted to Chateau Raith, but what if Papa Raith was in the Deeps and it misses? Gathering information on a foreign head of state seems harder than you make it out to be. Especially when he somehow stymies all your best tools. Eb evidently took three shots and all three didn't work. Papa Raith couldn't hit back because of Maggie Sr's curse, so he took a hit to his standing in the White Court and didn't retaliate.
Was that actually known information, though? I get the sense that Maggie Sr was hopping everywhere throughout the NN for the last portion of her life (cough cough setting up the Circle cough cough). I don't think where she was living was really public information beyond she had been seen with lots and lots of unsavory folks.
Yes, that's sounds about right. Raith himself perhaps doesn't pre-date Rome then. But seemingly born right around the birth of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in those events to some degree. Especially as that quote from Jim is a few years old himself, and he's probably rounding a little by a few years.
Certainly possible, I grant you. Seems odd though that Lord Raith's eldest child was only born 150 years ago. Did he kill most of the others? Or were they just culled over time by bad events.
That's true, the White Court's regenerative abilities are subtle and underrated. That being said, I doubt Lara could regrow her head. Is it all that different if the spinal cord is severed? I imagine if her head was reattached she could heal...after a while and it would tax her. But how long could her head be off before she would die? Massive damage to the brain would be fairly significant. Maybe if the bullet were specially designed for to counter their healing factor. But I grant you, an ordinary bullet on reflection does seem a little underpowered.
To Raith himself, perhaps. To his person...that's a different issue. Magical tracking devices and all. Or even spiritual intel. I can't imagine Eb dropped a satellite...I feel we would have heard about such a significant assault by now. Also, the wording around Eb's attacks on Lord Raith suggest he tried purely magical methods. Had he tried a physical assault like dropping a satellite it would have worked. The inconsistencies in Ebenezar's story could be Jim's or they could be that Ebenezar doesn't have his story straight.
I still think the simplest explanation is that pappa wraith on a full tank is extremely tough. Yes a large caliber bullet to the head would (perhaps) kill the other WC vampires, but I think they are also in a totally different weight class than him. If Lara is from around 1700 and he is from around year 0 then he is six times older. Maybe Eb did drop a satelite on him, but it did not kill him. Or maybe he tried to drop a satelite on him but his super hearing picked it up and he was so fast that he could run away in time? If he could rip the life force from someone with a kiss maybe Goodman Grey would not have fared so well. Maybe when he was with a full tank he did not have to settle for mortal dominated henchmen, he could have had his own dominated pet shapeshifter (or something else)
The simplest explanation as to why someone lives for 2000 years with a lot of enemies is that they are very hard to kill. I cannot imagine that Eb is the first one he pissed off.
Oh sure, he's tough. But the stated reason that he survived was his immunity to magical assault. As Harry finds out, the loop hole to this is physical assault. So you can still hurl objects at him kinetically, for example, and he his magical protection won't do jack to stop it. Lord Raith doesn't have wards on his person. I don't buy the super hearing explanation - Ortega's senses didn't help him much. And as above, I don't think Eb even tried that method or anything that overt because we would have heard about it. As for the Kiss of Death trick, that only works if his assassin got close enough...and it's unclear if how well it would work against stronger supernatural beings. I don't doubt a lesser Red Court vampire or a lesser Faerie would probably not have much of a chance - but I don't know that someone like Goodman Grey, particularly with his survivability (Nicodemus thinks he would be the most likely to survive after himself in Skin Game), would be as affected as lesser beings. He's quite tough, he took on the Genoskwa while possessed by Ursiel and nearly beat him in a straight fight.
Sure, the fact he is so old suggests he is a survivor. But the thing we know about the White Court is they eschew straight fights and survive by subtler methods. They blend in, they "befriend" their enemies, they make themselves indispensable to their allies, they rarely take active roles in fights and prefer to use cat's paws and manipulation. The biggest reason Lord Raith has survived for so long is likely because he mostly avoids fights and takes out his enemies before they realise the fight is on. Consider his method of killing Margaret. He didn't bother to rip the life out of her personally. He used a ritual spell to kill her, one that wouldn't even necessarily be able to be linked back to him. Only Ebenezar was aware (on the mortal plane) as far as we know.
I don't think that McCoy is going to do much, I think we've seen plenty of foreshadowing that he's going to die soon. Not in combat or anything like that, he's going to stroke out.
I think he's going to die, give the Blackstaff to Harry and that will kick off the White Council civil war.
Would be a waste of a writing opportunity to have Eb die in his sleep. I doubt Jim will do something so unexciting. Not to mention, one thing we know in the Dresden Files is character deaths are sudden, violent and gut-wrenching. I am sure he will die trying to save Harry, and he will give Harry the staff then/drop it and Harry will pick it up.
Proof, please. How would killing Maggie count as breaking the Accords?
If they killed her at a reception where she was a guest, sure- but it wasn't that kind of situation. Harry didn't violate the Accords by killing Bianca- he granted the power to the shades of her victims to do it. But they did it of their own free will independent of Harry. That's why the war was Red Court vs. White Council- no violation of the Accords, everyone else stayed out of it.
Regarding the bullets: I think Jim's going for "A bullet that killed a hero is a hero killing bullet" kind of situation- those with great destinies that were broken gaining metaphysical mass. The bullet from Nelson is firing with the force of Nelson's life.
Regarding Papa Raith- he killed his brother by tossing him from an airplane. Papa Raith is 2k years old, and has lead the White Court for some time. Baby brother was probably not a mere few centuries old. Nice nod towards the Raiths realizing Papa had lost his mojo.
Well, without a copy of the Accords it's a bit difficult but one rule that has been stated over and over again is attacking another nation is illegal under the Accords. Back when Raith murdered Maggie Snr, she was still a wizard and member of the White Council. She was due to be arrested and put on trial by the White Council, but she hadn't yet been expelled. Therefore, she was entitled to the protections that the Accords provide. An attack on her was an attack on the White Council.
I think you'll find that's semantics when it comes to how Harry killed Bianca. Neither the White Council or the Red Court thought Harry hadn't killed Bianca. Nor Harry for that matter. Shades don't have Free Will, they're not souls. Ghosts are created in the image of the being that created them from the energy of their death. They're not dissimilar to a magical clone, but more like an echo. Jim described it as filling a footprint with water. The ghost isn't the foot that made the foot print. They're the water that takes the shape of the foot. So Harry did kill Bianca. It was the result of his magic. The White Council as a whole believed that mad Harry of Chicago had violated Bianca's guest right and attacked a noble of a foreign power. That Bianca provoked him didn't seem to matter much. Harry isn't much of a lawyer, so he failed to understand the complexities of his situation nor was he able to argue them well enough. The game was rigged anyway, so that wouldn't have mattered I suppose. I think you'll find that the White Court joined the Red Court as allies in their war with the White Council, and the White Council was joined by the Fellowship of St Giles and the Ventori Umbrorum. So not like it was just two nations going head to head.
First, Ebenezer is bound to warn Harry that White Council is thinking of taking him out, even if formal charges haven't been made against him yet. The second thing to remember is Ebenezer is capable of doing subtle deadly magic. I doubt he tried to bring a satellite down on Lord Raith's head.
I could see Eb trying some kind of entropy curse on Lara, perhaps think that would even the scales for what her father did to his daughter. However, should this occur, I won't be surprised if afterwards Ebenezer warns Harry that Lara is immune to magical attacks, which would raise the question of how Eb could know that.
Definitely he will warn Harry. Hell, he might even just straight up fight the Council. They will surely anticipate Eb's reaction so it could get nasty soon.
Sure, Eb can do subtle magic. I think he would have tried complex, purely spiritual assaults on Lord Raith rather than hurling meteors at him. We can infer that because presumably he wouldn't have known about Lord Raith's magical protection, and when he came up against it he was stumped. He then presumably tried two different methods before giving up. Either he was foolish to not consider the physical angle, or an idiot. I don't think he is either which is why I wonder if Eb even tried at all.
I doubt Lara is also immune to magic. I wouldn't be surprised if she learnt about it and eventually gains it...but I doubt she is currently.
Did you ever watch the Highlander TV show? Well on the show there are The Watchers. They are supposed to watch, and catalog the things that go on with Immortals but to never interfere. So they pretty much know everything about the Immortals but the Immortals don't really know about them. Anyways at one point a group of them decide to start killing the Immortals. The Immortals who are great at hiding, and combat (from centuries of experience) didn't really know what was hitting them or how to respond.
I could see something like that happening. I mean when the Red Court used mortals who used poison gas to get past the Wardens wards, it was very effective. So a super secret organization with vast resources, technology, information, and weaknesses of the supernatural community could do quite a lot if they felt it necessary.
I think if they did something it would be ultra assassin stuff that left no real trace, and not something big and flashy.
That sounds about right for the Librarians.
-
Did you ever watch the Highlander TV show? Well on the show there are The Watchers. They are supposed to watch, and catalog the things that go on with Immortals but to never interfere. So they pretty much know everything about the Immortals but the Immortals don't really know about them. Anyways at one point a group of them decide to start killing the Immortals. The Immortals who are great at hiding, and combat (from centuries of experience) didn't really know what was hitting them or how to respond.
I could see something like that happening. I mean when the Red Court used mortals who used poison gas to get past the Wardens wards, it was very effective. So a super secret organization with vast resources, technology, information, and weaknesses of the supernatural community could do quite a lot if they felt it necessary.
I think if they did something it would be ultra assassin stuff that left no real trace, and not something big and flashy.
I'm really hoping Ziusudra is the founder and leader of the Librarians. I think he'd be perfect for it.
- He's immortal.
- He's human with no known powers.
- Historically, he helped humanity survive a divine-based apocalypse.
- He was the last of a line of Sumerian kings.
- Sumerians all but invented civilization and writing.
- Two of the oldest surviving texts mention him by name. One is a guide from his father on how to rule; the other is the Epic of Gilgamesh, where he's mentioned as an immortal that Gilgamesh seeks out in his own quest for immortality.
- He could be an amalgamation character in the Dresden files, and Harry could meet him and learn at the end that he's also known as Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah.
- As an immortal, he could have overseen the creation and relocation of the greatest libraries in history, moving a collection from place to place, until it ended up in America.
- He could have overseen the growth of the earliest empires, and the wonders they built, from the gardens of Babylon to the pyramids of Egypt to the lighthouse of Alexandria.
- The library could be the latest incarnation of a long list he oversaw, including the libraries of Ashurbanipal, Alexandria, Pergamum, Trajan's Forum, Constantinople, the Baghdadian House of Wisdom, and finally the museums of the west.
-
Been a hard week so I am a bit confused, if Eb tries an entrophy curse on Lara and it is successful. Then she is dead right? So what's to warn Harry about? I can see Eb admitting to it, and telling Harry about it because it would put him in a tough spot.
You are conflating two separate ideas into one idea. They are separate and distinct. The first is about Ebenezer reacting to White Council (Arthur Langtry and company) intentions to get rid of Harry. The second is Ebenezer's personal vendetta against the White Court and his desire to save Harry from the White's and what Eb sees as Harry's naiveté in regard to how evil the White Court is. These ideas are only indirectly related because Ebenezer might believe that by killing Lara Raith he would (temporarily) be removing some of the fear of what Harry is becoming and the pressure to remove him. I don't have much more to say about the first idea, it's fairly self explanatory, so everything else is about the second idea.
I have long speculated in other threads; going back to the original forum, that at some point Lara is going to demonstrate that she has learned her father's secrets and at that point she will no longer need to maintain the fiction that Lord Raith is still the effective leader of the White Court. My original hypothesis had Lord Raith dying, which would lead to some type of White Court meeting or council to discuss who should lead the Court. This would prompt Lara to use the "kiss of death" technique her father was said to have been able to use to silence critics and would be challengers to her rule.
I now see a possibility that Ebenezer will try to kill Lara only to discover that she has become immune to magic. As of Peace Talks and Battle Ground that isn't true. By the end of the next Twelve Months, maybe things will have changed. Lara now knows that Marcone is a denarian. She might not know which of the Fallen Marcone has made his business partner, but she can guess that Marcone now has some magic ability of his own to wield. Lara is being forced into a political marriage with Harry. She has long wanted to control Harry, but knows how dangerous Harry is and how surprisingly cunning he can sometimes be. If Lara knows of, or learns of her father's immunity to magic, she will almost certainly want to acquire the same immunity herself.
So, if Ebenezer makes an attempt to kill Lara and fails, he would probably want to warn Harry about her immunity to mortal magic. However, it would lead to the somewhat embarrassing confession that Ebenezer was; once again, attempting to interfere in Harry's life; for his own good, of course.
-
I'm really hoping Ziusudra is the founder and leader of the Librarians. I think he'd be perfect for it.
- He's immortal.
- He's human with no known powers.
- Historically, he helped humanity survive a divine-based apocalypse.
- He was the last of a line of Sumerian kings.
- Sumerians all but invented civilization and writing.
- Two of the oldest surviving texts mention him by name. One is a guide from his father on how to rule; the other is the Epic of Gilgamesh, where he's mentioned as an immortal that Gilgamesh seeks out in his own quest for immortality.
- He could be an amalgamation character in the Dresden files, and Harry could meet him and learn at the end that he's also known as Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah.
- As an immortal, he could have overseen the creation and relocation of the greatest libraries in history, moving a collection from place to place, until it ended up in America.
- He could have overseen the growth of the earliest empires, and the wonders they built, from the gardens of Babylon to the pyramids of Egypt to the lighthouse of Alexandria.
- The library could be the latest incarnation of a long list he oversaw, including the libraries of Ashurbanipal, Alexandria, Pergamum, Trajan's Forum, Constantinople, the Baghdadian House of Wisdom, and finally the museums of the west.
If he is a Sumerian character, I think we can't blame the Pyramids on him. The pyramids predate the fall of Sumeria as a civilization. Though, I suppose he could have left Sumeria and just have given them writing, then moving to Egypt to go Pyramid-building.
-
Yes, that's sounds about right. Raith himself perhaps doesn't pre-date Rome then. But seemingly born right around the birth of Christ. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in those events to some degree. Especially as that quote from Jim is a few years old himself, and he's probably rounding a little by a few years.
Certainly possible, I grant you. Seems odd though that Lord Raith's eldest child was only born 150 years ago. Did he kill most of the others? Or were they just culled over time by bad events.
That's true, the White Court's regenerative abilities are subtle and underrated. That being said, I doubt Lara could regrow her head. Is it all that different if the spinal cord is severed? I imagine if her head was reattached she could heal...after a while and it would tax her. But how long could her head be off before she would die? Massive damage to the brain would be fairly significant. Maybe if the bullet were specially designed for to counter their healing factor. But I grant you, an ordinary bullet on reflection does seem a little underpowered.
To Raith himself, perhaps. To his person...that's a different issue. Magical tracking devices and all. Or even spiritual intel. I can't imagine Eb dropped a satellite...I feel we would have heard about such a significant assault by now. Also, the wording around Eb's attacks on Lord Raith suggest he tried purely magical methods. Had he tried a physical assault like dropping a satellite it would have worked. The inconsistencies in Ebenezar's story could be Jim's or they could be that Ebenezar doesn't have his story straight.
His protection wouldn't have worked against the satellite directly (Harry's keys, for example, worked as intended), but the problem is targeting. I don't think a tracking spell would have had anything to grasp on Papa Raith, and it's not worth the risk to try without knowing it's going to hit. Other physical assaults are probably going to be similarly difficult for whatever reason.
Three hundred plus instead of 150 for Lara, but yeah the timing is a bit off. She's probably closer to Eb's age than Luccio's. Probably bias of the "next generation of leadership" getting me of thinking they were more contemporary. Could be a few earlier sons which he culled or daughters whampire politics got combined with poor whampire fertility for why Lara's the eldest now.
Oh sure, he's tough. But the stated reason that he survived was his immunity to magical assault. As Harry finds out, the loop hole to this is physical assault. So you can still hurl objects at him kinetically, for example, and he his magical protection won't do jack to stop it. Lord Raith doesn't have wards on his person. I don't buy the super hearing explanation - Ortega's senses didn't help him much. And as above, I don't think Eb even tried that method or anything that overt because we would have heard about it. As for the Kiss of Death trick, that only works if his assassin got close enough...and it's unclear if how well it would work against stronger supernatural beings. I don't doubt a lesser Red Court vampire or a lesser Faerie would probably not have much of a chance - but I don't know that someone like Goodman Grey, particularly with his survivability (Nicodemus thinks he would be the most likely to survive after himself in Skin Game), would be as affected as lesser beings. He's quite tough, he took on the Genoskwa while possessed by Ursiel and nearly beat him in a straight fight.
I think you're undervaluing the whampire mojo factor for someone like Grey. Doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you've been psychically stunned. Maybe Grey can withstand something like that and still fight, but I don't think it's a foolproof strategy.
Would be a waste of a writing opportunity to have Eb die in his sleep. I doubt Jim will do something so unexciting. Not to mention, one thing we know in the Dresden Files is character deaths are sudden, violent and gut-wrenching. I am sure he will die trying to save Harry, and he will give Harry the staff then/drop it and Harry will pick it up.
After BG, I'm actually thinking that Ramirez is a better candidate for next generation Blackstaff. The White Council would fight Harry's possession of it, and it would be too close to Mother Winter in his hands. Everybody likes Carlos, though. Plus, Harry admitted that he was becoming a better wizard, at least for the subtle stuff.
-
If he is a Sumerian character, I think we can't blame the Pyramids on him. The pyramids predate the fall of Sumeria as a civilization. Though, I suppose he could have left Sumeria and just have given them writing, then moving to Egypt to go Pyramid-building.
Ziusudra ruled around 2900 BC. He was the last king before the Flood, not the last king.
Gilgamesh visited an already immortal Ziusudra around 2700 BC.
The great pyramids were created no earlier than 2550 BC.
That means Ziusudra had a few hundred years to grow bored with immortality before he set out to do things, and could have been in Cairo in time for the pyramids. I'm not saying he would have been responsible, but I could see an immortal like that being a guiding hand for knowledge and education, and being there for important events.
-
His protection wouldn't have worked against the satellite directly (Harry's keys, for example, worked as intended), but the problem is targeting. I don't think a tracking spell would have had anything to grasp on Papa Raith, and it's not worth the risk to try without knowing it's going to hit. Other physical assaults are probably going to be similarly difficult for whatever reason.
Three hundred plus instead of 150 for Lara, but yeah the timing is a bit off. She's probably closer to Eb's age than Luccio's. Probably bias of the "next generation of leadership" getting me of thinking they were more contemporary. Could be a few earlier sons which he culled or daughters whampire politics got combined with poor whampire fertility for why Lara's the eldest now.
I think you're undervaluing the whampire mojo factor for someone like Grey. Doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you've been psychically stunned. Maybe Grey can withstand something like that and still fight, but I don't think it's a foolproof strategy.
After BG, I'm actually thinking that Ramirez is a better candidate for next generation Blackstaff. The White Council would fight Harry's possession of it, and it would be too close to Mother Winter in his hands. Everybody likes Carlos, though. Plus, Harry admitted that he was becoming a better wizard, at least for the subtle stuff.
I agree that targeting would be an issue, but not an insurmountable one. There are other ways of learning a location than locking on to a target with a tracking spell. Even mundane means. It's more the apparent lack of effort or result that bothers me. It seems at odds with the implacable, highly dangerous, hot-head that is Ebenezar.
Yeah, I still wonder about that weird Lara and Eb romance theory. They certainly have a weird history that we don't know about. I wouldn't put anything like that past Jim - consider Nicodemus and his daughter's relationship. If that was fine for the story, just about anything's on the table. Yes, I think it makes sense that many of the previous siblings would have died or been culled. Seems odd though to allow your kin to get slaughtered so much considering they are meant to continue the family line. We know Lord Raith often just kills his sons. But allowing his daughters to die, or killing them off occasionally seems odd. The fact that his "eldest" daughter is merely 300 or so when he himself is roughly 2000 years old...something doesn't add up.
The White Court's psychic attack is powerful, I grant you. But Grey is the scion of a mortal and an immortal. Uriel took notice of him. I can't see Lord Raith laying out such a powerful being with a single move. But true enough, we just don't know. Something to ask Jim sometime. I find it interesting though that White Court vampires don't often use it on powerful beings. None of them tried it on the Naagloshii, or on the Denarians, or the Fomor (the leaders, not the hybrid warriors). Seems like they don't just throw it around at everything. We've never even seen it tried on another vampire. Which makes me wonder if it's really only effective on mortals or other White Court vampires (and maybe some Faeries). In any case, if Grey were concerned about that sort of thing (and he would have fought the White Court before), he would adjust his methods presumably. Considering how easy it was for the Naagloshii to carve them up whole sale, I can't imagine he would have too much trouble. Sure, he isn't as powerful as Shagnasty but still.
You see, I had Ramirez picked for the eventual Merlin. Assuming the White Council survives/is reborn. He follows the rules, is well respected, values chain of command, has proven himself in the field etc. He doesn't have the right mentality to be the Blackstaff. It's about being able to make the right calls and live with the consequences. It's about being able to get your hands dirty so others don't have to. Ramirez is already too conflicted and would probably not deal well with it. I am not even sure he even knows of the position - which would upset him to learn of it, particularly because it would violate quite a few of his principles. The position isn't common knowledge amongst the Council. Besides, Harry getting a power up won't make life easier for him - so it's even more likely he will get it, if anyone does. It would only convince the Council he was even more dangerous or evil. They would hate to lose such a powerful weapon. It might even be the thing that sets them at him. He would look a bit like the Dark Lord from their perspective.
Ziusudra ruled around 2900 BC. He was the last king before the Flood, not the last king.
Gilgamesh visited an already immortal Ziusudra around 2700 BC.
The great pyramids were created no earlier than 2550 BC.
That means Ziusudra had a few hundred years to grow bored with immortality before he set out to do things, and could have been in Cairo in time for the pyramids. I'm not saying he would have been responsible, but I could see an immortal like that being a guiding hand for knowledge and education, and being there for important events.
Certainly an intriguing possibility. I wouldn't mind meeting an "immortal mortal" if you like. No real powers, just lives forever. His real strength is his extensive knowledge.
I wonder about him being around during the time of the pyramids though. He could have been there, but the Gods were fairly active back then. Not to mention the fact Pharaohs were considered living gods for a time. Considering the Pyramids were apparently about Sun worship I would think the Gods would have been more involved with their construction, myself. But maybe it was a joint thing.
I could see him being a part of the House of Life. Perhaps the proto- Librarians in fact. The House of Life were associated with Kingship, and preserving and creating knowledge. Sometimes also associated with physicians and magic. Interestingly, it possibly was absorbed by the Coptic traditions, and considering the enormous links between the Catholic Church and Egypt (the Catholic Church just loved getting Ancient Egyptian artefacts, particularly obelisks), I could see the House of Life becoming the Catholic Church, and then leaving and becoming the Librarians.
Although, considering their style in the Dogmen comic, I don't have high hopes. Far more MIB than Watchers.
-
I agree that targeting would be an issue, but not an insurmountable one. There are other ways of learning a location than locking on to a target with a tracking spell. Even mundane means. It's more the apparent lack of effort or result that bothers me. It seems at odds with the implacable, highly dangerous, hot-head that is Ebenezar.
Wizards hex up mundane means quite often. Maybe not insurmountable, but I think it would be difficult enough to end the mission before it began.
Yeah, I still wonder about that weird Lara and Eb romance theory. They certainly have a weird history that we don't know about. I wouldn't put anything like that past Jim - consider Nicodemus and his daughter's relationship. If that was fine for the story, just about anything's on the table. Yes, I think it makes sense that many of the previous siblings would have died or been culled. Seems odd though to allow your kin to get slaughtered so much considering they are meant to continue the family line. We know Lord Raith often just kills his sons. But allowing his daughters to die, or killing them off occasionally seems odd. The fact that his "eldest" daughter is merely 300 or so when he himself is roughly 2000 years old...something doesn't add up.
It is kind of odd, but the bookkeeping for the family tree is probably easier that way.
How many sisters does Thomas have?
I can’t find that notebook, grr. I think it’s nine. Papa Raith’s bodyguards minus one who is utterly bonkers and kept more or less in the attic, and Inari, the one who got away.
Also, I forget why we're assuming Lara is the oldest. Is it because she's the boss or is that a book quote that I've forgotten?
The White Court's psychic attack is powerful, I grant you. But Grey is the scion of a mortal and an immortal. Uriel took notice of him. I can't see Lord Raith laying out such a powerful being with a single move. But true enough, we just don't know. Something to ask Jim sometime. I find it interesting though that White Court vampires don't often use it on powerful beings. None of them tried it on the Naagloshii, or on the Denarians, or the Fomor (the leaders, not the hybrid warriors). Seems like they don't just throw it around at everything. We've never even seen it tried on another vampire. Which makes me wonder if it's really only effective on mortals or other White Court vampires (and maybe some Faeries). In any case, if Grey were concerned about that sort of thing (and he would have fought the White Court before), he would adjust his methods presumably. Considering how easy it was for the Naagloshii to carve them up whole sale, I can't imagine he would have too much trouble. Sure, he isn't as powerful as Shagnasty but still.
Point of fact, Lara has thrown whampire mojo at Madeline and her father (also how Papa Raith kept his daughters in line). It's not just mortals. It was a bit weird that they didn't do it against the uber-ghouls, true. Maybe it's more disruptive than helpful in group fights?
The "Who could take down Mab" WoJ seems to imply that the extremely narrow path for the entire White Court to defeat Mab would be via mass mind whammy.
Goodman Grey is probably nowhere near as powerful as Shagnasty. I don't see the clear tactic that Grey would use against Papa Raith. A pure physical attack would have to be immediately decisive or be subject to a mind whammy, but whampires are tough to make that happen. On that scale of beings that could make that happen, the cost to rent their services could be too high.
You see, I had Ramirez picked for the eventual Merlin. Assuming the White Council survives/is reborn. He follows the rules, is well respected, values chain of command, has proven himself in the field etc. He doesn't have the right mentality to be the Blackstaff. It's about being able to make the right calls and live with the consequences. It's about being able to get your hands dirty so others don't have to. Ramirez is already too conflicted and would probably not deal well with it. I am not even sure he even knows of the position - which would upset him to learn of it, particularly because it would violate quite a few of his principles. The position isn't common knowledge amongst the Council. Besides, Harry getting a power up won't make life easier for him - so it's even more likely he will get it, if anyone does. It would only convince the Council he was even more dangerous or evil. They would hate to lose such a powerful weapon. It might even be the thing that sets them at him. He would look a bit like the Dark Lord from their perspective.
Maybe. I'd put Luccio over Ramirez for Merlin, though. She's a better political fit, sympathetic for the old guard but flexible enough to work for the younger generations.
I'd also say no one that isn't upset about the existence of the Blackstaff is worthy to wield it. That being said, I still don't like Harry as the next Blackstaff.
-
Wizards hex up mundane means quite often. Maybe not insurmountable, but I think it would be difficult enough to end the mission before it began.
It is kind of odd, but the bookkeeping for the family tree is probably easier that way.
Also, I forget why we're assuming Lara is the oldest. Is it because she's the boss or is that a book quote that I've forgotten?
Point of fact, Lara has thrown whampire mojo at Madeline and her father (also how Papa Raith kept his daughters in line). It's not just mortals. It was a bit weird that they didn't do it against the uber-ghouls, true. Maybe it's more disruptive than helpful in group fights?
The "Who could take down Mab" WoJ seems to imply that the extremely narrow path for the entire White Court to defeat Mab would be via mass mind whammy.
Goodman Grey is probably nowhere near as powerful as Shagnasty. I don't see the clear tactic that Grey would use against Papa Raith. A pure physical attack would have to be immediately decisive or be subject to a mind whammy, but whampires are tough to make that happen. On that scale of beings that could make that happen, the cost to rent their services could be too high.
Maybe. I'd put Luccio over Ramirez for Merlin, though. She's a better political fit, sympathetic for the old guard but flexible enough to work for the younger generations.
I'd also say no one that isn't upset about the existence of the Blackstaff is worthy to wield it. That being said, I still don't like Harry as the next Blackstaff.
Wizard hexes, sure. Not Vampire hexes though! Harry has employed mortal agents before in order to get what he needs, like that ex-cop PI in Turn Coat. But even non-technological aids like tracking chips. Even good old fashioned recon and intel. One guy with eyes on the target calling in the air strike, for example. Or even just learning where a certain person will be and planning accordingly. There's plenty of non-magical means that wouldn't be hard to implement. No, I think Ebenezar had other reasons for not pursuing the White King...assuming he did in the first place.
Honestly, probably just a hole in Jim's story. Nothing deeper than that. Same with the ages of Lord Raith's children being so much younger.
Mostly because she's in charge and supernatural beings tend to go for the whole seniority denotes authority. She might not be though, I grant you. I don't believe it's stated ever she is the oldest or first born or anything along those lines.
I did actually say they had thrown their vampire whammy at other White Court vampires (but I forgive you for missing it, I did present a wall of text). Well, probably the main reason is it causes White Court vampires of House Raith to try and screw their victims. I can't imagine they would attempt that on uber-ghouls or skinwalkers etc. And yes, perhaps it wouldn't be all that useful in a fast fight and they prefer to rely on their speed and strength. Maybe it's only a last resort weapon when the Hunger takes over. But Lord Raith didn't mind just zapping people once upon a time (and perhaps other tricks). So presumably, it can be used in combat. Which is why I wonder about the effectiveness on particular beings.
That, and actual combat. Basically wearing down Mab by fighting and whammying until she succumbed. Pretty horrible fight I imagine. Not even sure it would work without the White King absorbing some of her hits. She is terrifyingly powerful. I believe Jim said it was pretty long odds anyway, even with the whole White Court.
Oh I agree Grey isn't at the same level as Shagnasty. I think being a shapeshifter he would try and impersonate a delicious mortal meal and then attack him with overwhelming force while his guard is down. But I don't doubt Grey also can use mortal weapons too. I doubt he would try the same tactic of overwhelming force as Shagnasty. Considering Grey can turn his hands into sickles of bone he could quite possibly decapitate and/or eviscerate Lord Raith if he got the jump on him. I can imagine he knows which of his many shapes would work best. Notice he turned into something particularly suited to fighting Ursiel/the Genoskwa. Also, the old fashioned kidnap and kill. Even something built to trap and render Lord Raith immobile would work well enough. The real question is whether McCoy and Grey would work together at all.
See, as much as I get your reasoning with Luccio I think she will die. She's part of the old guard. In a world where the White Council is remade (which won't necessarily happen should the White Council collapse), I can't imagine any of the old guard will be around. It will be a new generation, for a new world. Also, Luccio is another person who the death owl is hovering over (at least to me). I don't think she'll survive too much longer. She's a very killable character and Jim needs characters to kill. If the Merlin goes soon, I think the Council's collapse would be imminent. If not, it would probably mean someone like Cristos taking over and the Council becoming much worse - or flat-out evil (if Cristos is Black Council, for example).
I get what you mean. No one that wields the Blackstaff should be comfortable using it. But considering Eb chooses his successor, I can only see him choosing Harry. Certainly not Ramirez over Harry. The only way Ramirez might even get it would be if he picked it up literally off the ground right after Eb dies. But as I say, I don't think Ramirez is prepared to get into the world of grey. He sees the world still too black and white. Look at his most recent argument with Dresden.
-
Certainly an intriguing possibility. I wouldn't mind meeting an "immortal mortal" if you like. No real powers, just lives forever. His real strength is his extensive knowledge.
I wonder about him being around during the time of the pyramids though. He could have been there, but the Gods were fairly active back then. Not to mention the fact Pharaohs were considered living gods for a time. Considering the Pyramids were apparently about Sun worship I would think the Gods would have been more involved with their construction, myself. But maybe it was a joint thing.
I could see him being a part of the House of Life. Perhaps the proto- Librarians in fact. The House of Life were associated with Kingship, and preserving and creating knowledge. Sometimes also associated with physicians and magic. Interestingly, it possibly was absorbed by the Coptic traditions, and considering the enormous links between the Catholic Church and Egypt (the Catholic Church just loved getting Ancient Egyptian artefacts, particularly obelisks), I could see the House of Life becoming the Catholic Church, and then leaving and becoming the Librarians.
Although, considering their style in the Dogmen comic, I don't have high hopes. Far more MIB than Watchers.
It's interesting to note that in all the iterations I could find, Ziusudra/Noah/etc has a wife, but she's never named. Noah's wife's name is speculated, but isn't known for sure. But in the case of Ziusudra and Atrahasis, the wife was made immortal too.
If I were writing it, I'd have Ziusudra found the Library, and his wife found the Archive. Both of them taking different approaches to the same goal, of preserving humanity's wisdom.
It's all fan fic, of course, but I like it. ;D
-
Wizard hexes, sure. Not Vampire hexes though! Harry has employed mortal agents before in order to get what he needs, like that ex-cop PI in Turn Coat. But even non-technological aids like tracking chips. Even good old fashioned recon and intel. One guy with eyes on the target calling in the air strike, for example. Or even just learning where a certain person will be and planning accordingly. There's plenty of non-magical means that wouldn't be hard to implement. No, I think Ebenezar had other reasons for not pursuing the White King...assuming he did in the first place.
Honestly, probably just a hole in Jim's story. Nothing deeper than that. Same with the ages of Lord Raith's children being so much younger.
Maybe, but I don't think it would be too hard to justify from Eb's perspective.
Mostly because she's in charge and supernatural beings tend to go for the whole seniority denotes authority. She might not be though, I grant you. I don't believe it's stated ever she is the oldest or first born or anything along those lines.
Glad to know it's not just me not remembering things ;D
I did actually say they had thrown their vampire whammy at other White Court vampires (but I forgive you for missing it, I did present a wall of text). Well, probably the main reason is it causes White Court vampires of House Raith to try and screw their victims. I can't imagine they would attempt that on uber-ghouls or skinwalkers etc. And yes, perhaps it wouldn't be all that useful in a fast fight and they prefer to rely on their speed and strength. Maybe it's only a last resort weapon when the Hunger takes over. But Lord Raith didn't mind just zapping people once upon a time (and perhaps other tricks). So presumably, it can be used in combat. Which is why I wonder about the effectiveness on particular beings.
That, and actual combat. Basically wearing down Mab by fighting and whammying until she succumbed. Pretty horrible fight I imagine. Not even sure it would work without the White King absorbing some of her hits. She is terrifyingly powerful. I believe Jim said it was pretty long odds anyway, even with the whole White Court.
Ah, I misunderstood.
Too much friendly fire makes the most sense to me for not throwing it harder in big group fights with Harry around, and stuff like Shagnasty is too big a bite to even attempt without enough whampires there.
Oh I agree Grey isn't at the same level as Shagnasty. I think being a shapeshifter he would try and impersonate a delicious mortal meal and then attack him with overwhelming force while his guard is down. But I don't doubt Grey also can use mortal weapons too. I doubt he would try the same tactic of overwhelming force as Shagnasty. Considering Grey can turn his hands into sickles of bone he could quite possibly decapitate and/or eviscerate Lord Raith if he got the jump on him. I can imagine he knows which of his many shapes would work best. Notice he turned into something particularly suited to fighting Ursiel/the Genoskwa. Also, the old fashioned kidnap and kill. Even something built to trap and render Lord Raith immobile would work well enough. The real question is whether McCoy and Grey would work together at all.
Huh, Grey is basically a good-guy version of Clayface. Probably not as strong as Raith (Thomas bends barbells). Whampire nature would nullify most poisons to knock him out for a kidnapping. Grey might be able to manage something since he's resourceful, but I don't see an obvious tactic with an acceptable success rate. Papa Raith should be most dangerous against a delicious meal.
See, as much as I get your reasoning with Luccio I think she will die. She's part of the old guard. In a world where the White Council is remade (which won't necessarily happen should the White Council collapse), I can't imagine any of the old guard will be around. It will be a new generation, for a new world. Also, Luccio is another person who the death owl is hovering over (at least to me). I don't think she'll survive too much longer. She's a very killable character and Jim needs characters to kill. If the Merlin goes soon, I think the Council's collapse would be imminent. If not, it would probably mean someone like Cristos taking over and the Council becoming much worse - or flat-out evil (if Cristos is Black Council, for example).
I actually think Luccio may survive a while yet. She's gotten around the doom of being Harry's girlfriend. She's supportive of a softer take on the Laws while still understanding why they were codified in the first place. That being said, she is very killable.
I get what you mean. No one that wields the Blackstaff should be comfortable using it. But considering Eb chooses his successor, I can only see him choosing Harry. Certainly not Ramirez over Harry. The only way Ramirez might even get it would be if he picked it up literally off the ground right after Eb dies. But as I say, I don't think Ramirez is prepared to get into the world of grey. He sees the world still too black and white. Look at his most recent argument with Dresden.
Yeah, but I don't see Eb going down without a fight. He's not quietly retiring and handing his staff to someone he picks. Ramirez is gonna be at his side, then. Harry doesn't particularly want the staff, and it would keep him from a fight with Ramirez.
-
It's interesting to note that in all the iterations I could find, Ziusudra/Noah/etc has a wife, but she's never named. Noah's wife's name is speculated, but isn't known for sure. But in the case of Ziusudra and Atrahasis, the wife was made immortal too.
If I were writing it, I'd have Ziusudra found the Library, and his wife found the Archive. Both of them taking different approaches to the same goal, of preserving humanity's wisdom.
It's all fan fic, of course, but I like it. ;D
That would be a tale! Not sure that Jim would do it but I would read that fan fic! Which I admittedly am not a big fan of but that story sounds intriguing.
Maybe, but I don't think it would be too hard to justify from Eb's perspective.
Glad to know it's not just me not remembering things ;D
Ah, I misunderstood.
Too much friendly fire makes the most sense to me for not throwing it harder in big group fights with Harry around, and stuff like Shagnasty is too big a bite to even attempt without enough whampires there.
Huh, Grey is basically a good-guy version of Clayface. Probably not as strong as Raith (Thomas bends barbells). Whampire nature would nullify most poisons to knock him out for a kidnapping. Grey might be able to manage something since he's resourceful, but I don't see an obvious tactic with an acceptable success rate. Papa Raith should be most dangerous against a delicious meal.
I actually think Luccio may survive a while yet. She's gotten around the doom of being Harry's girlfriend. She's supportive of a softer take on the Laws while still understanding why they were codified in the first place. That being said, she is very killable.
Yeah, but I don't see Eb going down without a fight. He's not quietly retiring and handing his staff to someone he picks. Ramirez is gonna be at his side, then. Harry doesn't particularly want the staff, and it would keep him from a fight with Ramirez.
We'll have to see about Eb I think. I would like more information regardless...hopefully something will come out of an AMA.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim was influenced by Clayface (although in my head it's a bit more like the Prototype game). Also, not sure you need to use poisons for a kidnap. Just render a being immobile. Chains, cuffs etc. A metal box that even a White Court vampire can't punch their way out of. Hell, if you keep them restrained enough with physical restrains they won't be able to even use that awesome strength. Lord Raith would be very dangerous against a meal...but also at his most vulnerable too I suspect.
Oh yeah, if Eb chooses it will be with his dying breaths. Not a formal sort of retirement at all. I don't know that Harry doesn't want the staff. And as we know, he is plenty prepared to fight Ramirez. He isn't trying hard to avoid it. I'm not saying Harry wants the Blackstaff. But if he thought it would go into the wrong hands i.e. the Council he might well take it for the greater good.
-
I thought the Blackstaff chose it's own bearer? Heck, Eb wasn't even Senior Council yet. Maybe it takes the best combat mage, or the one with the most combat strength, and even Ramirez admits Harry is stronger. But I doubt Harry wants it. Morgan would have been a good call.
I am not sure Whampire charm will work on Grey. He's only half human. That skinwalker blood might walk right thru it. And I do think he'd take the deal if offered. He's a pro. He didn't even back down to Nick. Only to Uriel. backing down to Uriel doesn't prove you are weak, it just proves you are not a total moron.
Do we know how long House Raith has RUN the White court? Papa could have lost children in the fight for the throne. Or chosen not to have any until he solidified his hold on the throne. Maybe he didn't ascend until c. 1700.
I think a high caliber rifle takes Raith down. Browning designed the .50 BMG as antimateriel. As in shooting light armored trucks and later planes. Later adapted in Vietnam as a long range sniper. A head shot takes it off. Center of mass, hydrostatic shock purees the organs. A pro like Kincaid will center of mass it, no headshot. Muzzle energy roughly 30X a 9MM pistol.
I think Eb was convinced to step down. Possibly after learning of Raith's neutered status.
-
The Accords wouldn't be broken per se, but killing a wizard of the White Council would give the WC an actionable grievance against the White Court (assuming it could be proven to a given standard blah blah). That kind of grievance can be settled sometimes with a weregild or higher stakes including war depending on the moods of the Accorded nations. My understanding with the WC-RC war was that both parties wronged each other, so other nations had an out to stay neutral.
Pretty sure Maggie Sr. was not a WC member when she died. She was being hunted by the wardens.
-
The vampire leaders knew from Maggie Sr’s dinner argument. I’d be surprised if any senior council member was unaware except maybe Cristos tbh.
It seems pretty obvious that Ancient Mai doesn't know from TC where she says that Harry was never really Eb's apprentice. To me, this strongly suggests that she thought Eb was acting out of loyalty to an apprentice, not family member.
I'm really hoping Ziusudra is the founder and leader of the Librarians. I think he'd be perfect for it.
- He could be an amalgamation character in the Dresden files, and Harry could meet him and learn at the end that he's also known as Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah.
- He could have overseen the growth of the earliest empires, and the wonders they built, from the gardens of Babylon to the pyramids of Egypt to the lighthouse of Alexandria.
I'm not a big fan of the "this guy was everywhere in history and responsible for all the things" trope. I'm fine with such a character being involved in a specific eternal quest, like spreading and preserving knowledge.
Lara: Where are we getting Lara's age from? The most direct thing I can recall about age it the portraits in Papa Raith's library, which isn't very direct. We're never told that he's done this for every child in his 2000 year history or that he started after a certain point in art history. The first portrait suggests the woman (Emilia Alexandria Salazar) is from the 16th or 17th century (15 or 1600's). I kinda doubt that's the first time Papa Raith had a child considering the history of birth control.
It's explicitly stated that she's the oldest, BR: Ch. 15 - "'Harry," Thomas said. 'This is my oldest sister, Lara.'" Lara has known, in her head, that Papa Raith doesn't love her for a century. (I didn't remember either. Had to look it up).
Lara says in BR that she's seen siblings challenge Papa Raith before, so they could have been the older siblings.
All that taken together makes me think Lara is was born no later than the 1600's. She could be older if Papa Raith didn't always do portraits. She could be younger if Salazar was an older, now deceased, sibling's mother. The only information about the frequency of the portraits is that no two are within 20 or 30 years of each other and they "steadily grow closer to the present day."
I find it interesting though that White Court vampires don't often use it on powerful beings. None of them tried it on the Naagloshii, or on the Denarians, or the Fomor (the leaders, not the hybrid warriors). Seems like they don't just throw it around at everything. We've never even seen it tried on another vampire. Which makes me wonder if it's really only effective on mortals or other White Court vampires (and maybe some Faeries).
Lea seemed concerned about Thomas. She wanted Susan's "love" or her memories of Harry. Then Thomas was burned by Lea. I don't think that's a coincidence. At best, it's a misdirection.
Also Bigfoot Irwin was enthralled, so we have reason to believe wamp powers work on bigfeet and extremely powerful fae.
Ramirez as eventual Merlin: I think we're going to have Harry as founder of a new, reformed council. Maybe leader for a short while, then he "retreats to the wilderness." Not sure what the wilderness would be in this day and age.
A pro like Kincaid will center of mass it, no headshot.
Kincaid explicitly takes headshots.
If you’re shooting at someone, you’ve already decided to kill him. There’s no reason to shoot him anywhere other than the head, if you can. And I can.
https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing
Pretty sure Maggie Sr. was not a WC member when she died. She was being hunted by the wardens.
Morgan was a WC member when in TC.
-
Morgan had only been on the run for a day or two not years like Maggie Sr.
-
Morgan had only been on the run for a day or two not years like Maggie Sr.
Yeah, I don't think it has ever been clear if she was ever a member of the Council. On one hand in the earlier books when Harry was called on the carpet by the Senior Council, those that argue he is very much like his mother was, fighting the status quo, rebelling etc, give the impression that she was.. On the other hand if she was on the "most wanted list" given that they seemed to feel the need to expel Harry from the Council first before they did that says that at least at the time of her death Margaret was no longer a member if she ever was. Plus given the problems she had with Eb says she might never have joined. Harry even says in the earlier books that he agrees with what his mother was rebelling against as far as the Council's out dated thinking. But it gets fuzzy because at that point in time anyway, Harry was still a staunch believer in the Council.. He never fully says one way or another if she was a member or still was a member when she died. He may not know.
-
Yeah see, the White Court actually broke the Accords by killing Maggie
No? The Accords were created way after she was already dead, in fact according to Harry (in Storm Front), they were created "very recently" (and according to WoJ, the exact year seems to be 1994).
Everyone seems to think the Accords are old, but they're in fact inspired *after* the Geneva convention, so with the speed at which the magical world at large operates, it makes no sense for the Accords to be a long-standing thing.
-
No? The Accords were created way after she was already dead, in fact according to Harry (in Storm Front), they were created "very recently" (and according to WoJ, the exact year seems to be 1994).
Everyone seems to think the Accords are old, but they're in fact inspired *after* the Geneva convention, so with the speed at which the magical world at large operates, it makes no sense for the Accords to be a long-standing thing.
The *current* version of the Accords is from 1994. The Accords are old enough that all the players have the rules pretty well figured out. Plus, they're built on systems that are older, like guest rights. It's like the last time a bunch of people got together like in Peace Talks to update the Accords was '94.
-
The *current* version of the Accords is from 1994. The Accords are old enough that all the players have the rules pretty well figured out. Plus, they're built on systems that are older, like guest rights. It's like the last time a bunch of people got together like in Peace Talks to update the Accords was '94.
That's wrong, even the Dresden Files RPG says so:
"THE UNSEELIE ACCORDS
In 1994, factions from the Nevernever went to open battle with each other in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Such things had happened before, of course, but mankind had a new tool for sharing information rapidly and globally: the internet. With the advent of the Digital Age, Queen Mab recognized the need for improved security and discretion and acted accordingly—and swiftly—to end the conflict in Milwaukee and limit the potential for future outbreaks of violence. The result of this action from the Queen of Air and Darkness was the Unseelie Accords, signed by those same warring factions. Mab’s influence and will are not to be underestimated."
And the WoJ seems to be (the source I have for it does not mention where the original WoJ is from):
"How old are the Unseelie Accords? They are Mab's accords, and she hasn't been in charge forever, after all. "
The Accords are fairly recent: they were signed when Dresden was a young man, before he went independent as a detective.
If I was writing it all again, I'd probably make them something happening early in the series. Chicago would have belonged to the White Council and been their dumping ground for problem wizards--the ones who weren't quite bad enough to kill, but who had to have an eye kept on them. Harry could have conflicted with the genuine bad-guys-in-process, emotionally saved maybe Mort Lindquist (who would have been one of them) and probably screwed up hard enough for the White Council to lose Chicago, making it essentially open territory, like Casablanca."
Also, Proven Guilty states this:
"There’s a sign Mac’s got hanging up at the door that reads ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND. It means that the place was supposed to be a no-combat zone, under the terms laid out in the Unseelie Accords, the most recent and influential set of principles agreed upon by most of the various nations of the supernatural maybe ten or twelve years ago."
IMHO, if there *was* something equivalent to the Accords before 1994, it clearly didn't include anything which gave Eb (or the WCouncil in general) any grounds against the WCourt.
-
Also, Proven Guilty states this:
"There’s a sign Mac’s got hanging up at the door that reads ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND. It means that the place was supposed to be a no-combat zone, under the terms laid out in the Unseelie Accords, the most recent and influential set of principles agreed upon by most of the various nations of the supernatural maybe ten or twelve years ago."
IMHO, if there *was* something equivalent to the Accords before 1994, it clearly didn't include anything which gave Eb (or the WCouncil in general) any grounds against the WCourt.
Emphasis mine. The RPG is only of middling veracity, anyway. The details sometimes contradict the books. Better than speculation, but the books should take precedent.
Regardless, the Accords are there to provide structure to international conflicts, not to totally prevent war or to make war the only option. Just because the two nations didn't go to war doesn't mean that there were no actionable grounds to go to war.
-
About a range of topics:
I would love to see an ancient Sumerian around. That would give us a chance to learn more about ghouls. I have long felt that every civilization developed protective supernatural beings - ghouls in Sumer, half-red vampires in the Aztecs, white court in Etruscans, etc. These beings were often created by well meaning wizards, like the half-reds binding a hunter spirit to a human to give him extra powers. In the case of the reds it was poorly done because if they ever gave in to the temptation they became a threat. But with the ghouls in Sumer they were essentially their civilization's supernatural warriors to counter other civilizations supernatural warriors, and they self-limited their population to what could be sustained by eating the natural dead... until they didn't. I had a character concept in the RPG of a ghoul that had psychometry, which is what the religious leader class of the ghouls had until they were destroyed. When they eat something, they learn from it. "You are what you eat" applies to ghouls too. If they eat too much cow, they become docile. To stay intelligent, they need to eat intelligent people. And if one with psychometry eats enough wizards... boom Sumerian priest-wizard ghoul.
The blackstaff (the person holding the position, not the item) chooses who gets the blackstaff (the position and item) next. I assume it is worked out to happen automatically at his death. I think it is very likely Harry will get the staff. Anyone who thinks that mother winter doesn't know where her staff is, is kidding themselves. She's let them have it for some reason, maybe even so it can come down to Harry at the critical point.
I think Harry's time travel will be incorporeal. He will go back as a spirit, since he did make some comment about how hard it would be to move mass through time at one point. The question is whether he needs to have the blackstaff at the time to protect him from black magic ramifications? I think he will generally stay within the actions we've seen happen in the books and fill some holes we've seen. Who repaired little Chicago - TT Harry. Who helped defent Arctis Tor - TT Harry. Mab was willing to wait for Harry, because she literally knew from Harry that she would succeed in getting Harry. There are little inconsistencies we've seen through the book like where Lindquist lives that I think will supposedly be explained by mess ups Harry makes in the TT. We'll have to see how that works out.
I think the Mirror Mirror book will revolve more around Harry saving/redeeming the MM Harry, rather than killing him. The book series is getting much more seriously into redemption arcs. I doubt MM Harry will live through the redemption though...
I've always thought Eb could have used the blackstaff to blackmagic control a high ranking military office and track Papa Wraith by satellite and then just have dropped a missile on him, but I suspect either Eb didn't think of it, or that he wasn't willing to use that much black magic on a personal vendetta.
-
Yeah, well, the more speculation I hear about Mirror Mirror the less I am looking forward to it.. The most promising speculation I've heard so far is that it will be a way for Harry to meet up with Chandler. Not just for possible rescue, but Chandler may give Harry the straight poop as to why the Council wanted to be rid of him so badly. Carlos didn't give him that, only the last play by play,not what led up to it. Chandler might give him insight into the politics, which as we've seen before is very important. Also remember it doesn't follow necessarily that Harry will even see his other self. That in of itself violates one of the laws of time travel that goes beyond the seven laws. That didn't even happen in the original Trek episode, evil Kirk changed places with good Kirk, Spock saw through him and locked him up until he got his Kirk back and sent the bad one back to where he belonged.
-
It's my understanding from WoJ's that Harry is summoned to the MM universe by alternate Harry. Alternate Harry apparently has a tendency of getting into situation where it is helpful if people believe he is dead, and summons our Harry to take the fall for him so he can disappear and be safely "dead" for awhile. I suspect MM Harry will be in league with Denarians because Jim has also said that Harry selling his names to the librarian demon in earlier books would definitely come back to haunt him, and this seems like a good way to do that. If our Chandler is going to be there (which I think is highly unlikely unless there is a WoJ indicating it) then probability would indicate he would have to have something to do with our Harry's arrival, like have given MM Harry information about him or at least part of his name to summon him. That would explain why out of all the infinite multiverses they managed to wind up in the same one (other than divine manipulation).
-
It's my understanding from WoJ's that Harry is summoned to the MM universe by alternate Harry. Alternate Harry apparently has a tendency of getting into situation where it is helpful if people believe he is dead, and summons our Harry to take the fall for him so he can disappear and be safely "dead" for awhile. I suspect MM Harry will be in league with Denarians because Jim has also said that Harry selling his names to the librarian demon in earlier books would definitely come back to haunt him, and this seems like a good way to do that. If our Chandler is going to be there (which I think is highly unlikely unless there is a WoJ indicating it) then probability would indicate he would have to have something to do with our Harry's arrival, like have given MM Harry information about him or at least part of his name to summon him. That would explain why out of all the infinite multiverses they managed to wind up in the same one (other than divine manipulation).
That is interesting, Harry only gave Chauncy part of his name back in Fool Moon I believe, though Chauncy did tempt him with information about his mother and how his parents died and who did it. Harry knew better than to give him his whole name, but apparently some of it is enough for Chauncy to have some power over him.. Or could it be that it was the other Harry that traded away his whole name?
I'm confused, maybe it wasn't in this thread, but I know it is one of the others, in his last appearance Jim said that Chandler would turn up in Mirror Mirror.
-
I actually wonder if The Merlin cut Harry out of the Council in order to free his hands. It wouldn’t shock me if The Merlin is on the Gray Council.
-
I actually wonder if The Merlin cut Harry out of the Council in order to free his hands. It wouldn’t shock me if The Merlin is on the Gray Council.
I have speculated that the Merlin is on the Gray Council.
-
It's my understanding from WoJ's that Harry is summoned to the MM universe by alternate Harry. Alternate Harry apparently has a tendency of getting into situation where it is helpful if people believe he is dead, and summons our Harry to take the fall for him so he can disappear and be safely "dead" for awhile. I suspect MM Harry will be in league with Denarians because Jim has also said that Harry selling his names to the librarian demon in earlier books would definitely come back to haunt him, and this seems like a good way to do that. If our Chandler is going to be there (which I think is highly unlikely unless there is a WoJ indicating it) then probability would indicate he would have to have something to do with our Harry's arrival, like have given MM Harry information about him or at least part of his name to summon him. That would explain why out of all the infinite multiverses they managed to wind up in the same one (other than divine manipulation).
Yes there is WOJ the most recent Dragon Q& A Chandler Prime meets Harry Prime in MM. If you think about it to summon Harry requires proper use of his full name, which Alt Harry knows already.
-
Yes there is WOJ the most recent Dragon Q& A Chandler Prime meets Harry Prime in MM. If you think about it to summon Harry requires proper use of his full name, which Alt Harry knows already.
Which is the excuse to get Chandler back to his own dimension.