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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 03, 2021, 03:27:03 AM
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Who do you think they could be? Muninn and Huginn are so connected to Odin that he's sometimes called the Raven God. Their names mean mind, and memory. They act as his eyes, and ears around the world. If they are characters within the books, who could you see them being?
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Haven't we met them as his personal assistants outside his office?
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Haven't we met them as his personal assistants outside his office?
doh! Probably. I forget a lot of this stuff.
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uuuh yeah They're in Battle Ground as well. They cold calculate that taking out Harry would reduce Vadderungs survival by 25% which is unacceptable. They're also in a WOJ, Vadderung sends them out to take care of problems Thor and Loki create.
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I've only got one thing to say about all of that, "nevermore." ::)
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I actually think they did appear in a small cameo all the way back as far as Summer Knight. If you read the passage where Harry first meets the Mothers and sees their cottage, there is a raven outside. Considering the references to Norse mythology and runes in that book - I'd say it was them. Or at least one of them.
We never do seem them as birds otherwise, which is odd. Maybe there are other cameos I have missed. Mostly they take the form of his scary receptionist-bodyguards.
For that matter, where are Odin's wolves Geri and Frekki? The names mean "greedy" and "ravenous". I would like to see them as well...but I doubt it.
I suspect they might be Spirits of Intellect given bodies. Somewhere between being extensions of Odin and being his children.
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I suspect they might be Spirits of Intellect given bodies. Somewhere between being extensions of Odin and being his children.
I had this thought as well several years back. I view them sort of like external hard drives for Odin. Metaphysically speaking, he sheared them off himself so he's technically weaker, subsequently giving him more freedom to use his power. At the same time, he's still got them, so is he actually weaker at all? That's my theory at least. Odin intentionally handicaps himself to keep his options for acting open.
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I had this thought as well several years back. I view them sort of like external hard drives for Odin. Metaphysically speaking, he sheared them off himself so he's technically weaker, subsequently giving him more freedom to use his power. At the same time, he's still got them, so is he actually weaker at all? That's my theory at least. Odin intentionally handicaps himself to keep his options for acting open.
If you buy into Serack GUMCT, all the big beings really do is split themselves into smaller off shoots. So it would fit the pattern.
I think the Queens really help with that argument. In many ways they are the same being, but split into three (or perhaps six...). Are they weaker for being many rather than one?
Actually, what am I saying. Not six. It might be infinite. If there is a Mab (and Titania, and Molly and Sarissa etc) in almost every universe, yet the Mother's are the same being in every universe (like Uriel), that suggests there is an infinite number of beings. Which actually makes even more sense. They can act at multiple levels of reality so are more flexible.
In fact, considering what Gard said about Vadderung just being a facet that mortals can deal with, that suggests Vadderung isn't Odin exactly but just another offshoot. In the same way Christ was both the Son of God, and God on Earth. Does that make sense?
Is there are Vadderung in every universe or just one I think would help answer that question.
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My guess is that only those outside of time itself are singularities like that. I think the only good guy we've seen like that is Uriel. But maybe not even him.
I do like to think that the Walkers are singularities, and the Queens are not. It would help make sense of Harry's thought in Cold Days, where Mab was a photo, and Before was the statue itself. He senses that Mab is one thing representation of the power that transcends dimensions, whereas Before is all of that power in one being that is aware of all his other existences.
And to clarify, I mean that there could be seven branch realities, and there's a Uriel and a Before in each, and they're all aware of each of their versions, and know what they know.
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Apparently the Mothers and major gods like Zeus are at the same level as Uriel.
https://youtu.be/kGgyJNMA4q8?t=728 (https://youtu.be/kGgyJNMA4q8?t=728)
12:10 is the spot.
I think we haven't yet seen the full scale of the Walkers, based on everything we've been told about them. Apparently He Who Walks Behind is also in the same league as Uriel yet also seems vastly lesser. He apparently has all sorts of weird limits about when and where he can use his power, but still. My guess it the Walkers might not even be separate beings, or potentially are merely avatars of larger beings.
One Uriel, one Zeus, One Walker, One Mother etc across the multiverse. But that doesn't mean they don't have a bunch of little avatars and off-shoots all over the place. In many ways, the Faerie model might explain it best.
Mother Winter is the source, but she has lesser facets (the Mab in each universe), and an even smaller facet (the Lady in each universe) and then all the millions of Winter Fae in all the universes.
Could well be only seven branch realities, although Jim keeps referring to it like radio channels, so it feels like there is infinite numbers (or very close). Choices happening all over the place creates a lot of possible places. Times that by all of mortal history, by the entire population ever...it gets pretty ludicrous. And that's just one universe. If each universe keeps spawning more universes the problem is simply beyond comprehension. I personally would prefer only a few realities as that would make choice seem more important. But I am not sure it's so easy.
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The Multiverse as a trope has always irritated me. Just makes a mess of everything and drains the stakes out of any story. After all, there is always some universe within the multiverse where the protagonist made the "right choice" and their lost love still lives, etc., etc.
Also, I don't like the multiverse because physicists made it up in an attempt to avoid confronting the metaphysical impact of their discoveries.
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The Multiverse as a trope has always irritated me. Just makes a mess of everything and drains the stakes out of any story. After all, there is always some universe within the multiverse where the protagonist made the "right choice" and their lost love still lives, etc., etc.
Also, I don't like the multiverse because physicists made it up in an attempt to avoid confronting the metaphysical impact of their discoveries.
I too hate a multiverse, in regards to actual reality. In fiction, I hate infinite multiverse. But I can appreciate a well-structured and purposeful splinterverse, especially when there are specific laws it obeys.
But to do that, a writer has to commit to rules, and often they won't because they like the idea of a mirrorverse or a mirrorverse character too much, so they preserve something, which breaks a rule, and then it's all hogwash.
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The Multiverse as a trope has always irritated me. Just makes a mess of everything and drains the stakes out of any story. After all, there is always some universe within the multiverse where the protagonist made the "right choice" and their lost love still lives, etc., etc.
Also, I don't like the multiverse because physicists made it up in an attempt to avoid confronting the metaphysical impact of their discoveries.
Do you know what happens with quantum entanglement, or how quantum encryption works- or are you familiar with the Born interpretation of the Schrodinger equation.
Multiverse is a decent theoretical explanation for why matter demonstrates waveform superposition distributions and interference/coupling patterns.
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Do you know what happens with quantum entanglement, or how quantum encryption works- or are you familiar with the Born interpretation of the Schrodinger equation.
Multiverse is a decent theoretical explanation for why matter demonstrates waveform superposition distributions and interference/coupling patterns.
Disclaimer: I'm an aerospace engineer that crossed trained as a lawyer. So you seem about to get into the weeds past where I'm competent to trade blows with you.
That being said...
I am familiar with quantum entanglement and quantum encryption. I have clients whose technology relies on quantum entanglement to create quasi-particles (like polaritons) that are then used in various applications ranging from quantum encryption and quantum computing to more exotic uses. To assist their work, I have to half-way understand this stuff, although I was warned that only a dozen people on the planet actually "understand."
I'm obviously familiar with the Schrodinger's equation, but I had to look up the Born interpretation. (Always good to learn something new).
As for a theoretical explanation for why matter demonstrates waveform superposition distributions, etc., I'm aware that this is one of the postulated explanation for not really explicable collapse of wave functions.
This explanation has always dissatisfied me. The uncertainty principle and the measurement problem are uncomfortable, but it seems un-parsimonious to postulate an infinite set of universes with all of their associated mass and energy just to cover up the fact that we can't know where an electron is and where it's going at the same time.
My understanding is that while the Schrodinger equation is linear, wave collapse is not and so you just go round and round and round arguing about the probability function relating to the branch where we exist and the probability function of the particle to be observed.
Worse, the attempts to use this concept to come up with a measurable observation (typically, trying to show the cosmological constant is a result of multiple universes) have failed.
Smarter people than me, such as Sabine Hossenfelder, have explained why the multiverse/multiple worlds hypothesis is not science.
Bringing this back around to my original post, the metaphysical impact that the multiverse/many worlds idea was intended to avoid is simply the fact of a cosmic beginning.
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Disclaimer: I'm an aerospace engineer that crossed trained as a lawyer. So you seem about to get into the weeds past where I'm competent to trade blows with you.
That being said...
I am familiar with quantum entanglement and quantum encryption. I have clients whose technology relies on quantum entanglement to create quasi-particles (like polaritons) that are then used in various applications ranging from quantum encryption and quantum computing to more exotic uses. To assist their work, I have to half-way understand this stuff, although I was warned that only a dozen people on the planet actually "understand."
I'm obviously familiar with the Schrodinger's equation, but I had to look up the Born interpretation. (Always good to learn something new).
As for a theoretical explanation for why matter demonstrates waveform superposition distributions, etc., I'm aware that this is one of the postulated explanation for not really explicable collapse of wave functions.
This explanation has always dissatisfied me. The uncertainty principle and the measurement problem are uncomfortable, but it seems un-parsimonious to postulate an infinite set of universes with all of their associated mass and energy just to cover up the fact that we can't know where an electron is and where it's going at the same time.
My understanding is that while the Schrodinger equation is linear, wave collapse is not and so you just go round and round and round arguing about the probability function relating to the branch where we exist and the probability function of the particle to be observed.
Worse, the attempts to use this concept to come up with a measurable observation (typically, trying to show the cosmological constant is a result of multiple universes) have failed.
Smarter people than me, such as Sabine Hossenfelder, have explained why the multiverse/multiple worlds hypothesis is not science.
Bringing this back around to my original post, the metaphysical impact that the multiverse/many worlds idea was intended to avoid is simply the fact of a cosmic beginning.
Born, like Pauli, is one of those who understood the math, instead of just how to use the math. Bohr was another, as was Dirac. Dirac's sense of humor was Dad jokes on steroids, though- I still sometimes eyeroll over bra and ket notation
The basic issue is quantum tunneling is an observed, measured phenomenon. The major issue with the multiverse, as I recall- I started in physics and moved into engineering- is that it inherently postulates infinite duplication of energy into infinite universes. But the alternative is that reality itself is fundamentally unfixed at the quantum level, and can- with low probability- just shift into a different possible state/configuration. Which doesn't really square with collective human experience.
In terms of fiction- personally, I don't mind Moorcock's take- where it was a vehicle for the weird and insane- though Marvel/DC's are for easy mode. Jordan's take was also decent- test models for reality- but that's not surprising, he was a physicist by training.
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Love the science talk guys, let's be careful not to venture too close to the Touchy Topics areas. Discussion of the in-universe/story beginning of the Dresdenverse Creation is perfectly fine - but discussion on the beginning of our own is fraught with peril. Lots of people come here with many varied beliefs, so let's just keep it to the Dresden side of things when it comes to hypothesises and statements.
I agree Griffyn, that multiverse is a frustrating writing tool without strict rules (same for time travel really). That being said it can also lead to really interesting moments so it's hard to balance - which is too your point about writers often not being able to resist the allure of alternate stories and alternate characters etc.
Jim will do what he will. He likes the idea of an infinite multiverse. But I'd say that while every universe "matters" and so every choice in them (by mortals) "matters", not all universes matter as much as others, and it's hard to judge how many universes even exist without an external view. If you look at the Chronicles of Amber version (largely Jim's inspiration for his multiverse), it's not even clear that when characters step into Shadow universes whether that particular Shadow existed before the stepped into it. There's arguments both ways for whether any given Shadow existed before a visitor from Amber (or Chaos etc) stepped into it. Which isn't far from the argument in physics in some respects. Without empirical evidence it's intensely difficult to make a certain judgement. Which might be because of the very flaw in the argument i.e. something has to exist or not exist - yet apparently could be both. I mean, Hawking at one point came to the conclusion there didn't even have to be a "beginning" of everything, bizarre as that sounds. I suspect the Dresden Files multiverse plays by different rules to our universe though, so it might be foolish to use arguments from our own universe to make strong statements on anything.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the Dresden multiverse is so different in some respects that it is able to make more definite conclusions that we in our own universe seem to be able to. Maybe the physical laws are very close but have some slight yet important differences. That could change a whole lot.
At the end of the day though, Jim writes these books to be fun so it's probably best not to read too deeply into anything in them. But then, this forum wouldn't be needed so I might just be arguing against my own existence.
My apologies to all for derailing a thread about Odin's ravens and making it about the multiverse. Do we think Odin's ravens are part of him, or just spirits bound to him or constructs he made?
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I actually did like Jordan's multiverse where if the Dark One won anywhere, he won everywhere. That preserved the stakes -- even escalated them -- rather than drain them. If Jim did something like that, I'd probably enjoy it. If the Outsiders break into reality in any reality, then all versions reality is screwed.
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I used to think that was the case until Jim said Uriel had destroyed Universes before. Which to me suggests that the end result of the Outsiders breaking in isn't them destroying everything, it's an Archangel cleaning the slate.
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I used to think that was the case until Jim said Uriel had destroyed Universes before. Which to me suggests that the end result of the Outsiders breaking in isn't them destroying everything, it's an Archangel cleaning the slate.
Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.
The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.
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Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.
The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.
I could see Jim using Crisis on Infinite Earths as inspiration for the BAT, it is one of the OGs. Besides, anywhere there's time travel there's a multiverse and to quote an abridged perfect bug man "Multiverse Theory's a *****!"
Back on topic, I'm in the Hugin and Munin are pieces of Vadderung he splits off camp. They can act as eyes and ears remotely and they can mentally swap experiences after scouting or combat to help optimize strategies.
Given that we didn't see them engage with Ethniu or the Fomor I'm beginning to think they pulled the trigger on Gungnir frying the eye. Thoughts?
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I could see Jim using Crisis on Infinite Earths as inspiration for the BAT, it is one of the OGs. Besides, anywhere there's time travel there's a multiverse and to quote an abridged perfect bug man "Multiverse Theory's a *****!"
I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".
Talk about pressure.
Back on topic, I'm in the Hugin and Munin are pieces of Vadderung he splits off camp. They can act as eyes and ears remotely and they can mentally swap experiences after scouting or combat to help optimize strategies.
Given that we didn't see them engage with Ethniu or the Fomor I'm beginning to think they pulled the trigger on Gungnir frying the eye. Thoughts?
Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?
I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.
I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.
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I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".
Talk about pressure.
Ah, that'd be a dramatic visual.
Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?
I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.
I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.
Yeah, if we go by the sheared off pieces of Odin model, they may be too small of a piece to protect themselves properly for the amount of power they have. Too juicy of a target for someone wanting to throw a sucker punch for later. Odin might not want to risk them in a direct confrontation when there is too much unknown.
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Yeah, if we go by the sheared off pieces of Odin model, they may be too small of a piece to protect themselves properly for the amount of power they have. Too juicy of a target for someone wanting to throw a sucker punch for later. Odin might not want to risk them in a direct confrontation when there is too much unknown.
Considering they can shred steel with their fingernails, I wouldn't say they're weak in a fight.
But the risk does seem to outweigh the reward. Especially if they play integral roles in his intelligence apparatus.
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Considering they can shred steel with their fingernails, I wouldn't say they're weak in a fight.
But the risk does seem to outweigh the reward. Especially if they play integral roles in his intelligence apparatus.
Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.
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Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.
I can't think of anyone that would want to have a go at Odin. Other than maybe a spoiled kid that didn't like his Christmas stocking.
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I can't think of anyone that would want to have a go at Odin. Other than maybe a spoiled kid that didn't like his Christmas stocking.
Ferro 8)
I don't think he would in the current climate, but why take the risk?
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Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.
They wouldn't be much use as bodyguards if they couldn't go against things that want to take a shot at Odin would they? They seem confident that they could take Harry down with only a 50/50 chance of him getting one of them.
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They wouldn't be much use as bodyguards if they couldn't go against things that want to take a shot at Odin would they? They seem confident that they could take Harry down with only a 50/50 chance of him getting one of them.
But Harry's chances of taking Odin down are somewhere between slim and none. He's not in the right league to be taking direct shots at Odin. The ravens make great bodyguards for somebody like him, but don't bring them on the Ethniu fight.
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Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.
The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.
My thinking is similar. There is a story line in the Lucifer comics (not the travesty of a TV show - I understand it might be enjoyable in it's own right but after reading the comics...yikes, complete miss), that Fenrir attempts to destroy all of reality by attacking Yggdrasil (one of the beginning places). If it falls, all of reality would. I can see something similar for the Dresden Files. It's not enough that Dresden's universe might fall, or might even be one of the last remaining, but the Outsiders are intending to destroy something fundamental to all Creation. A pillar of reality. If they fail to stop them, the Outsiders win everywhere.
I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".
Talk about pressure.
Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?
I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.
I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.
Wow, that would be a great scene! What a set up. Nothing to remind Dresden he's involved in a high-stakes game. Not to mention, it fits the pattern. Summer Knight, Death Masks, Dead Beat, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, and finally Battle Ground all set the stakes higher and higher. All were potential apocalypse scenarios had Harry not stopped the villains. They increase in magnitude and violence each time, and Harry learns things are even more on the line than he thought. So I can see Uriel opening up the problem to Dresden and saying "You thought you had it bad before...you had no idea" or something along those lines (in a more Uriel style).
Ferro 8)
I don't think he would in the current climate, but why take the risk?
I am sure Drakul wouldn't be too concerned either, but he seems to be a long-term kind of player. All the really dangerous guys don't miss. So if Ferro were to fight Vadderung, it would only be a fight he was sure he could win - unless he was desperate. Vadderung is exceedingly dangerous. He almost plays chicken with Ferro in Peace Talks. "Take a swing if you want, but make it count, because otherwise I'll take my swing and I'll put you down". It's that sort of thing. Immortals who have lived a really long time would have to be somewhat cautious by nature. Against puny mortals I doubt they get too worried, at least in smaller fights. But against other similarly powerful beings I am sure they're a bit more wary. Just on the off chance that the other guy might just have done his homework and is ready to kill him. Immortality is a hell of a thing to lose.
Also, I don't think the body guards were involved in the fight - at least, not at the Ethniu bit. They're sort of like bodyguards but they're also his agents. I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing sabotage or recon on the enemy while Vadderung was kickboxing with Ethniu. Makes for a hell of a distraction.