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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on July 18, 2021, 08:08:10 AM
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Do you think Murphy met her Dad in the Between before signing up with Vadderung?
Seems like the place to make that "choice"
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Do you think Murphy met her Dad in the Between before signing up with Vadderung?
Seems like the place to make that "choice"
I doubt it because in Murphy's case, she was directly picked up by one of the Valkyrie, body and all.
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There is a relevant WOJ on it.
"Muskogee: Do einherjar have to make a choice to be recruited?
Jim: No not really. They can get roped into it. I mean if they've already got a claim somewhere else that's different. In which case Odin has to make a deal of some kind, it's like "I know you had plans for this guy and all Anubis but I really need him for the rest of the mortals" and that's the kind of thing that can happen. Very confused people occasionally wake up in Valhalla."
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There is a relevant WOJ on it.
What is confusing is seemingly Harry didn't get a choice, but then again he was only mostly dead and Uriel wanted to teach him a lesson.. Though seemingly at the end of Ghost Story Uriel was giving him a choice.. However it wasn't a real choice because Harry chose to move on instead he woke up alive on Demonreach. I can see possibly Murphy choosing to become one of Odin's soldiers of the future, but then again that goes against her faith.
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What is confusing is seemingly Harry didn't get a choice, but then again he was only mostly dead and Uriel wanted to teach him a lesson.. Though seemingly at the end of Ghost Story Uriel was giving him a choice.. However it wasn't a real choice because Harry chose to move on instead he woke up alive on Demonreach. I can see possibly Murphy choosing to become one of Odin's soldiers of the future, but then again that goes against her faith.
Unless Uriel and Vadderung made a deal. Then she should just have faith.
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Unless Uriel and Vadderung made a deal. Then she should just have faith.
But that is the point, in Ghost Story Uriel talks to Harry about it;
"When you say what comes next, what do you mean exactly?"
"The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgement."
"Oh," I said. "What comes next."
"Exactly."
"So I can stay Between," I said quietly. "Or I can go get on that train."
"If you do," Uriel said, his eyes intent and serious, "then you accept
what you have done will be taken into account. Your fate, ultimately, will
be determined by your actions in life."
"You're saying that if I don't work for you, I'll just have to accept what comes?"
"I am saying that you cannot escape the consequences of your choices,"he said.
I frowned at him for a minute. Then I said, "If I get on the train, it might carry me to Hell."
"I can't talk to you about that,"he said. "What comes next is about faith, Harry. Not knowledge."
Or she didn't accept the consequences of her choices in life and Odin presented her with an alternative to hanging out in the Between like her father or accepting judgement at this point.
That would be very "Murphylike" when you think of it, she always preferred her own ideas.. Though I don't know whether or not her time in Valhalla or later as one of Odin's warriors will count for her when judgement comes or against her.
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But that is the point, in Ghost Story Uriel talks to Harry about it;
Or she didn't accept the consequences of her choices in life and Odin presented her with an alternative to hanging out in the Between like her father or accepting judgement at this point.
That would be very "Murphylike" when you think of it, she always preferred her own ideas.. Though I don't know whether or not her time in Valhalla or later as one of Odin's warriors will count for her when judgement comes or against her.
Jim specifically said these deals were made and Vadderung hangs out with Uriel. A deal is quite possible.
What comes next is deliberately kept vague but it seems that Hades and Valhalla are valid though maybe somewhat out of fashion versions of it.
It seems that Karen made a choice. Harry gave her that choice and she chose the warrior path. Most choices are not that clear as the doors Harry was offered and even that clarity was deceptive.
It is a fine aft route for her. She wanted to be involved and now she is.
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Jim specifically said these deals were made and Vadderung hangs out with Uriel. A deal is quite possible.
I doubt that it is though in the case of souls and the judgement of souls.
Uriel;
"I am saying that you cannot escape the consequences of your choices,"he said.
There are consequences for her life's choices, one of her big choices in life was to go and work for Vadderung.. Her second big choice and maybe a bigger one, by her silence when she got a possible job offer whether you think it was to be a Valkyrie or an einherjar,it implied acceptance, she sealed her fate. So when she died, her body and soul were gathered up and taken to Valhalla as a consequence of her choices in life, not any deal between Uriel and Odin.
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I doubt that it is though in the case of souls and the judgement of souls.
Uriel;
There are consequences for her life's choices, one of her big choices in life was to go and work for Vadderung.. Her second big choice and maybe a bigger one, by her silence when she got a possible job offer whether you think it was to be a Valkyrie or an einherjar,it implied acceptance, she sealed her fate. So when she died, her body and soul were gathered up and taken to Valhalla as a consequence of her choices in life, not any deal between Uriel and Odin.
As usual Uriel’s quotes are quite meaningless if you want direct practical application. Of course your choices have consequences. What consequences is a different thing though.
It is highly likely that the quoted woj has something to do with Murphy’s situation because of context and she was in many respects still a catholic christian. But yes Vadderung had some arguments too so I think there was a discussion.
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It is highly likely that the quoted woj has something to do with Murphy’s situation because of context and she was in many respects still a catholic christian. But yes Vadderung had some arguments too so I think there was a discussion.
There may have been, but in the matters of what happens to the soul, that is out of Uriel's hands.
As he said to Harry;
When you say what comes next, what do you mean exactly?"
"The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgement."
In other words what happens next is up to Uriel's Boss.. Uriel also said something else to
Harry that it was about faith, not knowledge.
I think shocking as it may sound that Murphy rejected her religion when she thought Harry was dead. Contrast her attitude about being a Knight and the Holy Swords and what the Knights stand for verses Michael, or even Sanya who claims to be an atheist. Nic tested her faith, and he won, a Holy Sword was broken, it was the Sword of Faith.. Let's not forget that Murphy proclaimed that she was a better suited to judge Nic than the Almighty, someone of faith wouldn't think that.. What comes next is the consequences of choices made in life, Murphy chose to reject her faith in higher power and to rely on her own judgement instead.. She chose to become a pure warrior, though her death was stupid, her final act was that of a warrior.. So the consequences was to be sent to Valhalla to still be a warrior.
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There may have been, but in the matters of what happens to the soul, that is out of Uriel's hands.
As he said to Harry;
In other words what happens next is up to Uriel's Boss.. Uriel also said something else to
Harry that it was about faith, not knowledge.
I think shocking as it may sound that Murphy rejected her religion when she thought Harry was dead. Contrast her attitude about being a Knight and the Holy Swords and what the Knights stand for verses Michael, or even Sanya who claims to be an atheist. Nic tested her faith, and he won, a Holy Sword was broken, it was the Sword of Faith.. Let's not forget that Murphy proclaimed that she was a better suited to judge Nic than the Almighty, someone of faith wouldn't think that.. What comes next is the consequences of choices made in life, Murphy chose to reject her faith in higher power and to rely on her own judgement instead.. She chose to become a pure warrior, though her death was stupid, her final act was that of a warrior.. So the consequences was to be sent to Valhalla to still be a warrior.
I think you read too much in Uriel's words. He is a master in not telling things. Harry was saying things like judgement, eternal etc. Uriel just brought him back to Mab. In his case that was what comes next.
Jim probably lets it vague on purpose but strictly speaking we do barely know that Uriel's boss exists let alone what he is doing.
For now I assume his everafter is just something like Hades but with more harps and trumpets.
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I think you read too much in Uriel's words. He is a master in not telling things. Harry was saying things like judgement, eternal etc. Uriel just brought him back to Mab. In his case that was what comes next.
Jim probably lets it vague on purpose but strictly speaking we do barely know that Uriel's boss exists let alone what he is doing.
For now I assume his everafter is just something like Hades but with more harps and trumpets.
I could be reading too much into them, but Uriel isn't in charge of judgement and he has rules he has to play by.. I wouldn't assume anything since Uriel's everafter is hidden from us..
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Well, my take is that Vadderung needs Murphy "for the rest of the mortals" whatever that means. And of course, I'll argue it will end up being Murphy acquiring a Mantle in the end if not the Mab one, at least in one or some alternate realities.
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Well, my take is that Vadderung needs Murphy "for the rest of the mortals" whatever that means. And of course, I'll argue it will end up being Murphy acquiring a Mantle in the end if not the Mab one, at least in one or some alternate realities.
I don't know if Odin needs Murphy for that since all the soldiers in Valhalla were ordinary vanilla mortals at one time. I don't know what mantle Murphy would be eligible for.
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Jim specifically said these deals were made and Vadderung hangs out with Uriel. A deal is quite possible.
"I want to subcontract one of your people."
"Who?"
"Karrin Murphy. Battle of the Bean."
"I'm aware. "
"Well?"
"You picking up the tab today?"
"You had the Kobe steak and a glass of Knappogue Castle 1951!"
"She's worth it. After Ragnarok she comes back?"
"Oh, all right. Baron Marcone's check came in for consulting services today."
"Slainte."
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I don't know, I might catch heat for this, but I kinda don't want her back. I would rather we have a spin off where we follow Murphy and Hendricks in a kinda cant stand each other/buddy cop story.
Better to see that then the story of
"Hi, Harry"
"Murphy, you're back. I just recovered from your death. I love you. Don't leave me again."
"Harry, I have to leave. The world is right again and that means I cant stay. I'm sorry for making you hurt again."
Hmm, kinda sounds like the Harry/Susan storyline in DM.
Anyway, I don't think she will stay away forever, but personally I think Harry will have better character growth if Murphy prime stays out of the picture for the rest of the series.
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I don't know, I might catch heat for this, but I kinda don't want her back. I would rather we have a spin off where we follow Murphy and Hendricks in a kinda cant stand each other/buddy cop story.
Better to see that then the story of
"Hi, Harry"
"Murphy, you're back. I just recovered from your death. I love you. Don't leave me again."
"Harry, I have to leave. The world is right again and that means I cant stay. I'm sorry for making you hurt again."
Hmm, kinda sounds like the Harry/Susan storyline in DM.
Anyway, I don't think she will stay away forever, but personally I think Harry will have better character growth if Murphy prime stays out of the picture for the rest of the series.
I agree, once Jim kicked her off of the police force she never quite fit in anywhere, so the best choice was to kill her off.
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I don't know, I might catch heat for this, but I kinda don't want her back. I would rather we have a spin off where we follow Murphy and Hendricks in a kinda cant stand each other/buddy cop story.
Better to see that then the story of
"Hi, Harry"
"Murphy, you're back. I just recovered from your death. I love you. Don't leave me again."
"Harry, I have to leave. The world is right again and that means I cant stay. I'm sorry for making you hurt again."
Hmm, kinda sounds like the Harry/Susan storyline in DM.
Anyway, I don't think she will stay away forever, but personally I think Harry will have better character growth if Murphy prime stays out of the picture for the rest of the series.
I'll second the request for a Murphy and Hendricks story, especially if they spend a lot of conversations complaining about Harry and Marcone to each other.
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I'd enjoy Hendricks and Murphy buddy cop as well.
I'd be disappointed if she never appears again in Dresden Files.
I do think her becoming Einherjaar was the natural development of her character. She is a firm Catholic, Uriel and Vadderung are friends, but I also feel like its a missed opportunity for one of Uriels crucial conversations that are good for the soul, for her and her Dad not to see each other again after her death.
In many ways they would be in the same circumstances died but not quite moving on to what's next while performing a duty.
Seems to fit to me.
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I do think her becoming Einherjaar was the natural development of her character. She is a firm Catholic, Uriel and Vadderung are friends, but I also feel like its a missed opportunity for one of Uriels crucial conversations that are good for the soul, for her and her Dad not to see each other again after her death.
She could have easily joined her Dad in Between working for Uriel and been very happy..
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I don't think the place where Carmichel and her dad are is a place where they are "happy", they keep busy and work, but if I don't remember it wrong, it is a place for people who are not ready to move to what's next. Sounds to me like they are unresolved, people who had been unable to "let go" of what happens to the mortal world, which it's not a bad place to be, since they believe they have purpose still, but it doesn't exactly mean "happy", imo.
"Hi, Harry"
"Murphy, you're back. I just recovered from your death. I love you. Don't leave me again."
"Harry, I have to leave. The world is right again and that means I cant stay. I'm sorry for making you hurt again."
Well, character needs time to grow on his own for a while, I agree on that. But I don't think we have to worry about that storyline, if she comes back, she won't be leaving again. I think we're headed for a scenario where Dresden gets to experience what she did when he was gone, and returned.
Anyway, either way, I fully support Murph and Hendricks buddy cop side story... Hell, I support a Murph-afterlife side story in whichever form.
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If she comes back and if she stays, I feel like it would be a fan service. Gards comment about that she can't come back until no living memory of her remains. Now, that doesn't say she can't stay if someone suddenly remembers her, but it feels to me that if someone does, she can't be around. And as of right now, the only way she can come back early is if the rules were thrown out the window. And Harry knows that rules are there for a reason. He will bend them and exploit them, but at the end of the day he will uphold them.
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If she comes back and if she stays, I feel like it would be a fan service. Gards comment about that she can't come back until no living memory of her remains. Now, that doesn't say she can't stay if someone suddenly remembers her, but it feels to me that if someone does, she can't be around. And as of right now, the only way she can come back early is if the rules were thrown out the window. And Harry knows that rules are there for a reason. He will bend them and exploit them, but at the end of the day he will uphold them.
Harry will never forget her and he will be around to the final reel.. So perhaps this is Jim's way of letting him fans know gently that she isn't coming back, but also leaving them some hope that she might.
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I'd enjoy Hendricks and Murphy buddy cop as well.
I'd be disappointed if she never appears again in Dresden Files.
I do think her becoming Einherjaar was the natural development of her character. She is a firm Catholic, Uriel and Vadderung are friends, but I also feel like its a missed opportunity for one of Uriels crucial conversations that are good for the soul, for her and her Dad not to see each other again after her death.
In many ways they would be in the same circumstances died but not quite moving on to what's next while performing a duty.
Seems to fit to me.
Murphy and Hendricks could be a funny short story for some anthology.. mismatched teams or the like.
We are pretty much told she was RAISED Catholic, not much sign of any faith afterwards that I can recall. No signs of being observant.
Do we really know she did not get to talk to her Dad? Maybe Uriel offered her the job with Vadderung and she took it? Mr. Sunshine is big on free choice. Maybe she thinks she can be more effective against the bad guys in that role. Do we have anything beyond Gard's word that she IS Einherjaren? Not saying she'd lie, but Gard could be mistaken.
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There is the knot. She is in Vadderung inventory system. And Gard has intellectual about what happened to her.
Mab called her honoured dead, that might mean something as well.
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There is the knot. She is in Vadderung inventory system. And Gard has intellectual about what happened to her.
Mab called her honoured dead, that might mean something as well.
Yes, as in D-E-A-D, a bit different perhaps from taking the train to hell or passing through the door for judgement and what is beyond, but at the same time not coming back as she was. I think that might be what Gard meant by her not coming back until she's passed beyond living memory. Meanwhile she is going to train hard and drink lots of mead then go out in a blaze of glory in the final battle..
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Yes, as in D-E-A-D, a bit different perhaps from taking the train to hell or passing through the door for judgement and what is beyond, but at the same time not coming back as she was. I think that might be what Gard meant by her not coming back until she's passed beyond living memory. Meanwhile she is going to train hard and drink lots of mead then go out in a blaze of glory in the final battle..
Drink loads of mead and not gaining weight, that is heaven enough for loads of people. ;D
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We are pretty much told she was RAISED Catholic, not much sign of any faith afterwards that I can recall. No signs of being observant.
Actually there are several. She clarifies that the reason she doesn't become a Knight of the Cross isn't because she doesn't believe.
She outright prays to St Jude in the short story Aftermath.
And she turns down a Valkyrie's offer of a threesome in Peace Talks when she states she's Catholic.
All of which suggests Vadderung would have to negotiate with Uriel or someone from the Catholic side of things.
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Actually there are several. She clarifies that the reason she doesn't become a Knight of the Cross isn't because she doesn't believe.
But then she clearly states by her actions that she doesn't believe when she presumes to judge and damn Nic.
She outright prays to St Jude in the short story Aftermath.
That was a while back, people change and a lot has happened to her since then.
And she turns down a Valkyrie's offer of a threesome in Peace Talks when she states she's Catholic.
Or a polite way of turning down a mange et toi..
All of which suggests Vadderung would have to negotiate with Uriel or someone from the Catholic side of things.
Uriel states in Ghost Story that he isn't in charge of such things.
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But then she clearly states by her actions that she doesn't believe when she presumes to judge and damn Nic.
If you apply the knights of the cross standards then there are almost none.
That was a while back, people change and a lot has happened to her since then.Or a polite way of turning down a mange et toi..
You are confusing Gard and Freydis. ;D
Uriel states in Ghost Story that he isn't in charge of such things.
Not ultimately but we have seen he can facilitate things.
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If you apply the knights of the cross standards then there are almost none.
Oh yes there are, both Michael and Sanya fully explain it to Harry when Cassius gave up his coin. That is where Murphy screwed up big time when Nic gave up his coin, it may have been a bluff, but she should have called it. She had no faith in the judgement of the Almighty, only her own, and with a "damn you," she got a Holy Sword broken. Michael has strong Catholic faith, Murphy seems to lean more towards the "lapsed" kind.
You are confusing Gard and Freydis.
No, I am not, just answering the other post, but it is also a polite way to turn down sex with Freydis. But as far as that goes what does faith have to do with it anyhow? Nothing, you can claim it is against your religion, though it may be in name only.
Not ultimately but we have seen he can facilitate things.
Maybe, but not when it comes down to the nitty gritty.. He did take a chance with Harry, but he wasn't all dead at the time, part of the lesson for Harry was about faith and choice..
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Oh yes there are, both Michael and Sanya fully explain it to Harry when Cassius gave up his coin. That is where Murphy screwed up big time when Nic gave up his coin, it may have been a bluff, but she should have called it. She had no faith in the judgement of the Almighty, only her own, and with a "damn you," she got a Holy Sword broken. Michael has strong Catholic faith, Murphy seems to lean more towards the "lapsed" kind.
Lapses in faith are normal it does not mean you are not a catholic or whatever other religion. If Uriel’s boss only claims the perfect he will only get a small percentage of his followers.
Merely failing the rather high demands of the sword does not make you a follower of Odin.
No, I am not, just answering the other post, but it is also a polite way to turn down sex with Freydis. But as far as that goes what does faith have to do with it anyhow? Nothing, you can claim it is against your religion, though it may be in name only.Maybe, but not when it comes down to the nitty gritty.. He did take a chance with Harry, but he wasn't all dead at the time, part of the lesson for Harry was about faith and choice..
I am not myself a Christian so I can only observe but a lot of people feel connected to a religion without necessarily observing or sometimes even knowing all the rules. They still count as part of the flock.
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I just lost a good 800 words, so this is going to be shorter than I intended originally.
Anyway: I like the idea of Odin and Uriel trading people like baseball cards. And I personally believe the loophole is going to be Ragnarok; every source for that part of the mythology I've found specifies that Odin leads the Aesir and all of the Einherjaren into battle against Fenrir, which would presumably include Murphy.
And the whole "I'm here but can't stay" inevitability is probably already going to happen in Mirror, Mirror, presuming Murphy doesn't hate Dresden in that timeline. That's where I assume Harry will find his catharsis. Maybe with some other lost characters, too.
On Ragnarok: I don't know where Jim intends to source his interpretations. It could be the Poetic Edda or the Prose Edda, but Snorri did a LOT of editorializing in the 13th century, and directly contradicts a bunch of stuff from the original, surviving Old Norse texts. He really seemed to want to impose a kind of order to Norse mythology that didn't really exist in what you'd consider their canon. For example, Snorri directly states that those who die in battle go to Valhalla, while those who die of disease, accidents, or old age are sent to Helheim, which is a clear-cut rule that is nowhere to be found in the older material. The closest thing to that kind of rule is that Odin and his Valkyries will "choose" from among those who've died in a conflict, but it's not really clear what criteria they use, and it doesn't stipulate what happens to those who weren't chosen to be an Einherjar.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing Jim's interpretation of Loki. The real one from mythology, not the bastardization we have in these Marvel movies, however entertaining Tom Hiddleston might be. I wonder if he's currently sleeping under Demonreach. Are there snakes there?
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It was also not a unified belief with a holy book and so on. Local variations were all equally valid. Some gods were more popular than others with some people and so on.
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It was also not a unified belief with a holy book and so on. Local variations were all equally valid. Some gods were more popular than others with some people and so on.
Big time. There's almost as much variation within cultures as there is between cultures, and that includes religions. I mean, even monotheistic religions have significant variations between sects and denominations, and even within the same sect or denomination you'll find plenty of differences from church to church (or temple to temple, or parish to parish), and that's with written documents that ostensibly unify beliefs.
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Big time. There's almost as much variation within cultures as there is between cultures, and that includes religions. I mean, even monotheistic religions have significant variations between sects and denominations, and even within the same sect or denomination you'll find plenty of differences from church to church (or temple to temple, or parish to parish), and that's with written documents that ostensibly unify beliefs.
Those are mostly differences in interpretation, not in the stories themselves. That can be big of course but Snorri probably had to choose between conflicting versions of the same story and we do not know how he combined them
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There is the knot. She is in Vadderung inventory system. And Gard has intellectual about what happened to her.
Mab called her honoured dead, that might mean something as well.
Yes, but I think it's been established in other dimensions time sometimes is not in sync. Can we be sure she did not spend an hour, a week, a month, with her dad and then pop up in the Norse afterlife one second after she left our plane?