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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 18, 2021, 03:55:14 AM
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Jim said that the type of wizard to beat Harry is Carlos. Carlos is a water mage, and uses delicate magic that is difficult to do. His type of magic could basically counter Harry's.
Well Marcone did some things that makes me question Harry's ability to beat him. First, Marcone didn't use any Foci when casting magic. He did it without any tools, which is the sign of a skilled magical user. Second, Marcone used a type of teleportation, a veil, and was able to change concrete at the molecular level... This kind of magic is most likely extremely delicate, and difficult to do. We only saw some of his defensive magic, not his offensive abilities. Marcone, I think, is a lot like Carlos in the sense of being able to neutralize Dresden's particular style of magic (I think he'd take Carlos at this point too)... Throw in the fact that Fallen are way tougher than mortals and can take damage that would kill a wizard... Marcone was unfazed by his broken neck for example, healing instantly... Combine all of these and Dresden has a seriously dangerous enemy in Marcone.
Also a WAG... Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire.... I suspect it was future Marcone. Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't).. I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there.
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The theory is that Namshiel's previous host was infected, which calls everything he did into question. If so, then the choice of holding the Archive captive on the island might have been intentional to try to screw with the defenses there, since we know Beside is interested in the place.
But more to your point, if Namshiel's host was infected, or even a Beside host, then depending on the timing, he could have been responsible for the attack on Arctis Tor with hellfire.
I mean, I'm a fan of time traveling Harry doing it, but even I have to admit that the old Namshiel seems more likely than Harry or Namarcone.
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At the moment, it is a no brainer... Marcone couldn't beat Harry, but a Fallen Angel who has been
a wizard from the beginning of time, could.. Only thing that would save Harry at the moment is Marcone isn't used to being used by his host, so he makes mistakes.
Also a WAG... Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire.... I suspect it was future Marcone. Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't).. I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there.
Could be, but I doubt it is Marcone, the time travel thing is just too easy and the type of thing that should be used very sparingly or it becomes very bad writing.
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Jim said that the type of wizard to beat Harry is Carlos. Carlos is a water mage, and uses delicate magic that is difficult to do. His type of magic could basically counter Harry's.
Well Marcone did some things that makes me question Harry's ability to beat him. First, Marcone didn't use any Foci when casting magic. He did it without any tools, which is the sign of a skilled magical user. Second, Marcone used a type of teleportation, a veil, and was able to change concrete at the molecular level... This kind of magic is most likely extremely delicate, and difficult to do. We only saw some of his defensive magic, not his offensive abilities. Marcone, I think, is a lot like Carlos in the sense of being able to neutralize Dresden's particular style of magic (I think he'd take Carlos at this point too)... Throw in the fact that Fallen are way tougher than mortals and can take damage that would kill a wizard... Marcone was unfazed by his broken neck for example, healing instantly... Combine all of these and Dresden has a seriously dangerous enemy in Marcone.
Also a WAG... Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire.... I suspect it was future Marcone. Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't).. I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there.
Well yeah, the last two times he went up against Harry he casually oneshot him before being taken down by a third party sucker punch.
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Well yeah, the last two times he went up against Harry he casually oneshot him before being taken down by a third party sucker punch.
I assume you mean Namshiel and his previous host? Fair enough...although past performance isn't always a reliable indicator of future outcomes. Namshiel still has to teach Marcone etc. But that being said, he is the Fallen who has displayed the most magic through his host. Which does make you wonder why not the others...it isn't like angels (fallen or no) have an issue with magic. Must be to do with who they are and how they work.
groinkick
Totally agree, in universe. By rights Marcone has already displayed enough to show he is advanced of Harry and should beat him in a duel, not including Namshiel's tricks in hi previous host.
However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.
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I assume you mean Namshiel and his previous host? Fair enough...although past performance isn't always a reliable indicator of future outcomes. Namshiel still has to teach Marcone etc. But that being said, he is the Fallen who has displayed the most magic through his host. Which does make you wonder why not the others...it isn't like angels (fallen or no) have an issue with magic. Must be to do with who they are and how they work.
groinkick
Totally agree, in universe. By rights Marcone has already displayed enough to show he is advanced of Harry and should beat him in a duel, not including Namshiel's tricks in hi previous host.
However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.
He's probably right about Marcone being not up to par in a number of ways, because Marcone is supposed to be keeping pace with Harry rather than being better both in terms of brawling and organisation. Marcone could still win a 1v1 if he let Namshiel take the wheel for a few minutes but fat chance of that.
As for why the other denarians don't really make with the magic too much, presumably because if every denarian was a super-wizard on top of their other abilities it'd be just absolutely impossible to balance them as an antagonist.
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However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.
A lot of that was Harry, just being Harry, his usual smart assed self mouthing off to provoke someone beyond his weight class. He knows that Marcone still has a lot to learn and he also knows what Namshiel can do, however he did go up against him in Small Favor and didn't do too badly with the help of Soul Fire, something that was totally new to him at the time, he didn't even understand what was going on, when it appeared in the Aquarium as he fought him. On the island later Namshiel let him know how much that pissed him off, Harry lasted a short while, but it was eventually a no contest, except it did distract Namshiel long enough for Michael to sneak up and lop off his head. Since Small Favor Harry has learned quite a bit about what Soul Fire is and how to use it, he has become the Winter Knight, and he still doesn't know the meaning of being a star born.. So the battle could be epic, it sounds impossible against a Fallen Angel in the body of a ruthless mobster, but I wouldn't count Harry totally out, yet. ::)
As far as Carlos and his water magic goes, I think it will come down to how determined they are to kill one another.
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Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.
While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense. Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach.
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Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
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Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
Makes you wonder about the convo between Marcone and Namshiel at that point.
M: Can we take him?
N: Most likely. But he did wipe the floor with my previous host who had years more experience than you.
M: Not today then.
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I mean, I'm a fan of time traveling Harry doing it
Maybe he did.... Or maybe he was the one who showed up and stopped it.
Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
Well I don't think he realized his castle was up for grabs at that point. It did cost him the Eye but I don't think it had to do with the odds against Harry on his own. Harry did have the Spear of destiny with him, and it may be on par with or more powerful than one of the Swords. If Harry had been without it, who knows. That being said Marcone did say that he had a more longer term perspective. Perhaps it has to do with Harry the Starborn. Maybe he knows Harry is going to be needed, or see's him as a tool for later, or that ticking off Mab wasn't worth the trouble.
Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.
While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
That's because Marcone keeps his abilities close to the vest, he doesn't boast. He's had the Coin for years and just now showed his cards because he had to. He didn't use offensive abilities because they wouldn't have been effective against a Titan, and would have been a waste of time and energy.
We know that Fallen can throw around Hellfire, a devastating, destructive force. At the very least Marcone has that. Also he broke down concrete at the molecular level. What do you think he could do to a human body?
"I noted, somewhere in the academic vaults of my head, that magic like that was like unbaking a damned cake back into its original components" "Ramirez was good. Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin" - Harry
"I just broke down the molecular structure of concrete and then chemically re-formed it inside a mold of pure will" - Marcone
One could argue that Marcone not only is capable of what Ramirez did, but by re-forming it is beyond Carlos's abilities. Carlos broke down the molecular structure, we haven't seen him reform something on that level. Destroying is easier than creating.
That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense. Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach.
Displayed in some of the short stories, Marcone has been preparing for a showdown with Dresden for many years. His special bullets were created by Gard (maybe he does them now I don't know). He had come up with strategies to defeat Harry like using explosives to wear him down, a sprinkler system to dampen his magic, and the special bullets to go through his shield to kill him... Now he has a Coin, and has shown to be a very capable magic user. I find it highly unlikely he hasn't been learning offensive magic. He's shown to be at an expert level with some magic already. Harry has said that fire magic is easy, and one of the first things a wizard learns. Marcone at the very least could probably burn Harry to a crisp.
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Makes you wonder about the convo between Marcone and Namshiel at that point.
M: Can we take him?
N: Most likely. But he did wipe the floor with my previous host who had years more experience than you.
M: Not today then.
He kind of stomped Dresden. Dresden without knowing how used a Soulfire hand to smash him but had been getting beat pretty badly before that. Later on he was also beating Dresden but Michael chopped off his head, and hand.
"The Denarian ate the force spell Dresden threw at him. Then Thorned conjured a smoky prison from black threads he spewed from his mouth landing all around Dresden. The prison-spell shatters Dresden's shield and blocks all of his magic. Some unknown power creates a silver hand construct for Dresden, floating away from him and reflecting his movements. It breaks the prison and thrashes Thorny through several walls and glass ripping him to shreds, but not killing him"
"He throws green threads of light at Dresden, one of which wraps around Dresden's neck, choking him. Michael lops off his head, then cuts off his hand with the Denarian Coin in it"
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Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.
Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"
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Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.
Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"
I both agree, and disagree. With book examples (and head cannon) Harry's talent in magic falls into three main categories:
1. Combat magic: Least technical, relies on his formidable raw power. Hits really really hard but technical wizards can see it coming, defend, and counter.
2. Non combat magic: Harry is a wizard, capable of all forms of magic. If he sets his mind to it, and has time, he can pull off really impressive magic. It requires time, and effort, so not effective in a pinch.
3. Crafting magical items (blasting rod, rings, bracelet ect). Jim has said that Harry is Senior Council level at constructing this stuff. So he has a rare talent for it, think Lucio and how nobody can craft enchanted swords like her. So this is a legit magical talent, and Harry is expert level.
So yeah Harry is limited in some ways, but an expert in others. Give him time to prepare, and he can pull of some incredible stuff. In combat there are wizards who can beat him, but very few could actually take Harry's best shot. They need to avoid direct combat with him because he hits so hard that they aren't likely to survive his first pyro blast (if he wants blood).
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Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
I mean if you're going to try and take Harry straight-up, something that'll let you survive the death curse is pretty much mandatory, the likeliest outcome of trying for it there was a mutual kill.
I both agree, and disagree. With book examples (and head cannon) Harry's talent in magic falls into three main categories:
1. Combat magic: Least technical, relies on his formidable raw power. Hits really really hard but technical wizards can see it coming, defend, and counter.
2. Non combat magic: Harry is a wizard, capable of all forms of magic. If he sets his mind to it, and has time, he can pull off really impressive magic. It requires time, and effort, so not effective in a pinch.
3. Crafting magical items (blasting rod, rings, bracelet ect). Jim has said that Harry is Senior Council level at constructing this stuff. So he has a rare talent for it, think Lucio and how nobody can craft enchanted swords like her. So this is a legit magical talent, and Harry is expert level.
So yeah Harry is limited in some ways, but an expert in others. Give him time to prepare, and he can pull of some incredible stuff. In combat there are wizards who can beat him, but very few could actually take Harry's best shot. They need to avoid direct combat with him because he hits so hard that they aren't likely to survive his first pyro blast (if he wants blood).
Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.
Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"
Of two minds about this, on one hand yeah he is kind of bad at magic but it's getting a bit exaggerated just how incompetent he is at times. But on the other hand he definitely isn't senior council level considering Ebenezar is running around with a staff blast that's at least 1000x as strong and better coat equivalent and he's not the senior council's enchanting specialist, he's top of the line for his generation when it comes to making things but still can't hold a candle to the older wizards in skill.
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Of two minds about this, on one hand yeah he is kind of bad at magic but it's getting a bit exaggerated just how incompetent he is at times. But on the other hand he definitely isn't senior council level considering Ebenezar is running around with a staff blast that's at least 1000x as strong and better coat equivalent and he's not the senior council's enchanting specialist, he's top of the line for his generation when it comes to making things but still can't hold a candle to the older wizards in skill.
He isn't bad at magic, he just isn't as formally trained as some. Yes, Justin gave him some of the basics, but when Harry killed him and was declared a full wizard he was only sixteen, many apprentices are just getting into the meat of their training at age, he was with Eb until the age of nineteen, but Eb taught him little or no magic during those three years. Some books were forbidden to him at the Council Headquarters, it is almost like the Council is afraid if he learns too much magic they won't be able to control him at all. In a lot of ways, Harry is self taught, and he only learns what he needs to, to survive. Yes, he is very good at making his blasting rods and shield bracelets because no one would teach him or practice with him the finer points of attack and defense, so he had to improvise. Consider how good he became at mind defense and attack because he and Molly broke rules after Harry realized how bad the defense sanctioned by the Council. How much better he has gotten over all because he has had to study in order to teach Molly, as Eb predicted. I think that in of itself has taught Harry a lesson, he knows now he has to be better, so he will study.. And he still has the Winter Lady to spar with, if she has time.
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While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
Even Hand explained that what he's doing with the antique guns is enchanting them to punch through shields. Looking obsolete is camoflage for how dangerous they really are.
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He's probably right about Marcone being not up to par in a number of ways, because Marcone is supposed to be keeping pace with Harry rather than being better both in terms of brawling and organisation. Marcone could still win a 1v1 if he let Namshiel take the wheel for a few minutes but fat chance of that.
As for why the other denarians don't really make with the magic too much, presumably because if every denarian was a super-wizard on top of their other abilities it'd be just absolutely impossible to balance them as an antagonist.
Based on what Harry had seen of Marcone at the time of course. Mira is right that we haven't yet seen a whole lot yet from Marcone...which doesn't mean Marcone can't do certain things of course.
I found the answer to the Denarian problem is way back in Death Masks. It's that a wizard gets a real upgrade compared to a mortal with no training. Which could suggest that Marcone has had magical talent a LOT longer than he has been letting on. Which would make sense. Marcone doesn't advertise more than he has to.
Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.
While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense. Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach.
Don't be surprised when he does demonstrate massive offensive capability though. He might just be more economical than Harry. Not to mention Marcone doesn't show more than he needs to as you even say. He might have waited years to reveal his Coin and magic until Ethniu forced his hand. Which shows just how dangerous the guy is.
Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. He might not have liked the odds but it's his comments that give it away. He says he has finally begun to think long term...from a guy who was already thinking fairly long term (certainly longer than most, especially Dresden). He might starting to be thinking in terms of centuries, if not longer. He might have realised it's better to let Dresden dig his own grave than take him head on. He might have realised that taking the Eye will only further isolate Harry from his remaining allies and bring more heat.
Marcone likely didn't want more scrutiny or attacks, especially after a large part of his resources would have been drained from the battle. He likely has longer term plans he doesn't want looked at and is probably using Dresden as the distraction. In the end, Harry's life is more violent and will probably end that way. He also likely doesn't want Dresden as an enemy until he is absolutely sure of victory, something which every other villain has underestimated. Marcone won't.
As others pointed out, he also didn't know he would lose his castle...but don't be shocked if he leaves a present or two for Dresden.
Maybe he did.... Or maybe he was the one who showed up and stopped it.
Well I don't think he realized his castle was up for grabs at that point. It did cost him the Eye but I don't think it had to do with the odds against Harry on his own. Harry did have the Spear of destiny with him, and it may be on par with or more powerful than one of the Swords. If Harry had been without it, who knows. That being said Marcone did say that he had a more longer term perspective. Perhaps it has to do with Harry the Starborn. Maybe he knows Harry is going to be needed, or see's him as a tool for later, or that ticking off Mab wasn't worth the trouble.
That's because Marcone keeps his abilities close to the vest, he doesn't boast. He's had the Coin for years and just now showed his cards because he had to. He didn't use offensive abilities because they wouldn't have been effective against a Titan, and would have been a waste of time and energy.
We know that Fallen can throw around Hellfire, a devastating, destructive force. At the very least Marcone has that. Also he broke down concrete at the molecular level. What do you think he could do to a human body?
"I noted, somewhere in the academic vaults of my head, that magic like that was like unbaking a damned cake back into its original components" "Ramirez was good. Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin" - Harry
"I just broke down the molecular structure of concrete and then chemically re-formed it inside a mold of pure will" - Marcone
One could argue that Marcone not only is capable of what Ramirez did, but by re-forming it is beyond Carlos's abilities. Carlos broke down the molecular structure, we haven't seen him reform something on that level. Destroying is easier than creating.
Displayed in some of the short stories, Marcone has been preparing for a showdown with Dresden for many years. His special bullets were created by Gard (maybe he does them now I don't know). He had come up with strategies to defeat Harry like using explosives to wear him down, a sprinkler system to dampen his magic, and the special bullets to go through his shield to kill him... Now he has a Coin, and has shown to be a very capable magic user. I find it highly unlikely he hasn't been learning offensive magic. He's shown to be at an expert level with some magic already. Harry has said that fire magic is easy, and one of the first things a wizard learns. Marcone at the very least could probably burn Harry to a crisp.
Agree with pretty much all of this. That being said Harry has one thing Marcone doesn't have...plot power! Jim will make him win because he's the hero after all. Hopefully it is justified well enough to be believable.
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Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly.
First, Thorned Marcone is much better at magic than Harry. I'm not sure what more you'd want to witness from a Wizard beyond teleportation and molecular disintegration and reintegration in seconds.
Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide. While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.
Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat. I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean. Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall. He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could. As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches. But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer." He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100). He relied on those things and got by on them. While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ.
Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else. He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem.
Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more. In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat.
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Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly.
At the Aquarium with the help of Soul Fire he didn't do too badly... He has learned a lot since then both about wizard combat and what Soul Fire can do, not to mention the Winter Knight's mantle..
Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide. While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.
Neither is Marcone, even with a coin.
Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat. I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean. Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall. He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could. As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches. But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer." He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100). He relied on those things and got by on them. While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ.
No? For a guy not good at magical combat he's done pretty well.. It is more like you are describing Ali's "rope-a-dope," he took a lot of punishment as well, but he could also float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Harry has managed that a few times.
Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else. He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem.
Well, having a bigger battery and more will than anyone else is a big advantage.. He is learning to pace himself, but that takes time.
Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more. In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat.
He was at the beginning, but he isn't that any longer, teaching Molly has helped a lot.. He can do mind duels now and hold his own, that isn't a thuggish thing.
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At the Aquarium with the help of Soul Fire he didn't do too badly... He has learned a lot since then both about wizard combat and what Soul Fire can do, not to mention the Winter Knight's mantle..
He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.
Neither is Marcone, even with a coin.
What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.
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What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.
I don't remember that scene, however even if is so, Marcone isn't invulnerable. For one thing Harry still has the Sword of Love in reserve, he says he is no Holy Knight, but if the cause is there, he may find he is one, if only for this eventual confrontation. Harry has a little invulnerability of his own, the Spear gives him that. Denarians can be taken down, Harry came very close to doing Nic in a couple of times. Thorton Namshiel was taken down, that is how Marcone got the coin in the first place. Yes, Harry has a lot more studying to do before he can take on Namshiel, but he knows his host very well... They did soul gaze once, yes, Marcone frightened him, but Harry also saw his weaknesses was well.. Yes, Marcone saw his, but he also knows it is better to have Harry on his side than his enemy..
He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.
But that's the point isn't it, he had it, that is what Jake was trying to tell him in Small Favor and in Ghost Story... Balance, like the Holy Knights Harry is there to balance the threat of the Fallen. Also Old Thorton was most likely a wizard before he took up the coin, he just got more juice from Namshiel the Fallen Angel.. Marcone may have had some talent, but he is no wizard, as Harry taunted him with the fact. He still has a lot to learn, so the battle may not be as one sided as you think.
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I don't remember that scene, however even if is so, Marcone isn't invulnerable. For one thing Harry still has the Sword of Love in reserve, he says he is no Holy Knight, but if the cause is there, he may find he is one, if only for this eventual confrontation. Harry has a little invulnerability of his own, the Spear gives him that. Denarians can be taken down, Harry came very close to doing Nic in a couple of times. Thorton Namshiel was taken down, that is how Marcone got the coin in the first place. Yes, Harry has a lot more studying to do before he can take on Namshiel, but he knows his host very well... They did soul gaze once, yes, Marcone frightened him, but Harry also saw his weaknesses was well.. Yes, Marcone saw his, but he also knows it is better to have Harry on his side than his enemy..
But that's the point isn't it, he had it, that is what Jake was trying to tell him in Small Favor and in Ghost Story... Balance, like the Holy Knights Harry is there to balance the threat of the Fallen. Also Old Thorton was most likely a wizard before he took up the coin, he just got more juice from Namshiel the Fallen Angel.. Marcone may have had some talent, but he is no wizard, as Harry taunted him with the fact. He still has a lot to learn, so the battle may not be as one sided as you think.
Marcone stabbed at her. A child would have done better against a professional wrestler.
Ethniu’s good arm blurred. She seized him by the throat, lifted him with no noticeable effort, gave her arm a little bob, a little twist, and broke his neck.
I watched Marcone jerk and go limp.
She rose to a knee, her good leg planted in the boiling water, and threw the corpse away like an empty beer can.
The Baron of Chicago landed on the rocks, boneless and broken.
A roar went up from the battlefield behind us.
The blue beam of light rising into the night like a vague, glowing moonbeam, above the embattled forces of the Winter Lady, flickered and dimmed.
Ethniu let out a bubbling, almost disbelieving laugh. Then she prowled like a beast down into the roiling water and slipped beneath it. I could see her reaching out a hand toward the light of the Eye.
I staggered over to Marcone’s body. Broken neck didn’t kill you right away.
Nobody ought to die alone.
And when I got there, he sat up. I fell back with a manly high-pitched scream.
Marcone’s head was twisted way too far around to one side. He rolled his neck as if stretching out. There was series of hideous little pops in his neck and then he shook his head back and forth as if easing a cramp, and his neck just . . . unbroke. Marcone gave me a bland look and held up his knife.
Its blade was covered in blood, too bright red to be real.
I blinked and stared at the knife. Then up at him.
“What the actual fuck?” I asked.
I felt my eyes widen.
Celestial power, they had said, to get through the Titanic bronze.
Or infernal.
Marcone’s eyes wrinkled at the corners in genuine amusement. “Honestly, Dresden. Did you think I’d stop with the title?”
No one is saying Marcone is invulnerable. Just that he could survive a broken neck and Harry could not.
Does the Spear grant invulnerability? So far all we have seen is that it can strike through Titanic Bronze and has enough power to help Harry bind such a being. I am aware that is supposedly grants victory to whoever holds it...but that might just as easily be because it has so much power as simply bending reality and probability to force victory. We haven't seen any evidence yet of the latter.
I don't disagree that Denarians can be taken down and I do believe that in taking up a Coin, Marcone has sealed his own fate (I don't see him repenting any time soon). That being said Marcone was formidable as a mortal already. Now he's had a Coin for the last decade...he's probably a whole lot scarier. I mean he already seemed scarier than in Small Favor even before we knew about Namshiel.
I don't remember Marcone having any weaknesses that Harry saw in the soulgaze. I only remember him being ashamed and furious about the hurting the Beckitt child, and that it drove him. Not sure that's a weakness.
I don't thinks it's established that Marcone isn't a wizard. We haven't seen him do anything but Harry doesn't watch him 24/7 and has never even touched Marcone so he wouldn't have picked up any energies. Marcone may well have had talents, maybe not White Council level, before he took the Coin. Marcone isn't like Harry he would never reveal such a thing. It might even be latent.
Not to mention, that yes while Marcone has a lot to learn - he has Namshiel. Namshiel doesn't have a lot to learn as he already literally knows all there is to know about magic (that an angel can know). He has intellectus. That's huge! We have seen Lash speed up Harry's brain so he can react faster than a normal being, think of what Namshiel could do. Even if Harry is better and more prepared, these are significant advantages. Marcone will get a lot more out of Namshiel than whoever the poor sap was who last was his ride. The fact that Macone goes by Marcone, and not Thorned Namshiel, should tell you a bit. He's on the order of Nicodemus but with magic. He might actually be a worse threat.
I do agree it won't be one-sided. Harry is formidable. Just look at his track record. But Marcone is no pushover (especially now), Harry will have to use every trick he has learned to beat him.
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Not to mention, that yes while Marcone has a lot to learn - he has Namshiel. Namshiel doesn't have a lot to learn as he already literally knows all there is to know about magic (that an angel can know). He has intellectus. That's huge! We have seen Lash speed up Harry's brain so he can react faster than a normal being, think of what Namshiel could do. Even if Harry is better and more prepared, these are significant advantages. Marcone will get a lot more out of Namshiel than whoever the poor sap was who last was his ride. The fact that Macone goes by Marcone, and not Thorned Namshiel, should tell you a bit. He's on the order of Nicodemus but with magic. He might actually be a worse threat.
I do agree it won't be one-sided. Harry is formidable. Just look at his track record. But Marcone is no pushover (especially now), Harry will have to use every trick he has learned to beat him.
Pretty sure they lost intellectus when they fell (or at least when they got stuck in coins) much like how they lost their creative capacity, Anduriel's spying ability and Namshiel's research would both look pretty pointless if they instantly had the ability to know whatever they want to know.
And yeah when they do fight, I want it to be an even slugfest that some of Harry's friends don't walk away from because running Illinois means that Marcone should have an awful lot of men with guns on call.
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He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.
What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.
A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound. If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.
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A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound. If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.
Yup, that would kind of having the same effect as chopping his head off with a Holy Sword.
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A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound.
It depends entirely on the damage to the spinal cord. His head had been turned 180 degrees. His spinal cord would have been completely severed resulting in an instant death.
If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.
We don't know this for sure. When Michael beheaded Thorned, he quickly followed by cutting off his hand, separating the Coin from the body. Blood on his Soul was smashed to pulp, and somehow survived. The Coins display different abilities. No two are the same. So if Marcone's head had been removed, and the Coin was still in contact with his torso, who knows what could happen. His head may grow back, or his body may have gotten up, and reattach the head.
All we do know is that Marcone sustained an injury that would have resulted in an instant death, and he recovered in moments.
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All we do know is that Marcone sustained an injury that would have resulted in an instant death, and he recovered in moments.
But did he really? The coin has that power, Marcone doesn't.. Remove the coin and what happens to him then? For all we know, he might now be no more than an animated corpse, remove the coin, and his head falls off. However it does explain how the Denarian sashquash came back after being squashed to pulp in Hades, he wasn't separated from the coin.. But then both Deidre and Hannah should also be able to come back unless Hades got a hold of their coins. Or to do in the host of a coin, a Holy Sword is needed to break the connection, other methods are merely set backs.
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But did he really? The coin has that power, Marcone doesn't.. Remove the coin and what happens to him then? For all we know, he might now be no more than an animated corpse, remove the coin, and his head falls off. However it does explain how the Denarian sashquash came back after being squashed to pulp in Hades, he wasn't separated from the coin..
It's unlikely that Marcone would be an animated corpse. Then there would no longer be any Choice involved. No Knight could offer him redemption because he'd just be a dead body. I don't see why his body would un-heal and fall apart after being repaired. Not only that but other Coin holders have given up Coin's without aging really quickly, or dying, which should have happened if the only thing sustaining them was a Coin.
But then both Deidre and Hannah should also be able to come back unless Hades got a hold of their coins. Or to do in the host of a coin, a Holy Sword is needed to break the connection, other methods are merely set backs.
I wouldn't be shocked if Hannah is running around still. Diedre gave up her Coin to Nicodemus before he killed her.
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It's unlikely that Marcone would be an animated corpse. Then there would no longer be any Choice involved. No Knight could offer him redemption because he'd just be a dead body. I don't see why his body would un-heal and fall apart after being repaired. Not only that but other Coin holders have given up Coin's without aging really quickly, or dying, which should have happened if the only thing sustaining them was a Coin.
That isn't quite true, it depends on how long they'd held the coin. Cassius, after he gave up his coin aged quite rapidly. Who knows if Marcone is or isn't? As far as that goes, Michael didn't offer old Thorny a chance at redemption, never asked the question, just lopped off his head.. What is unusual is he also cut off his hand to get the coin.. That is different from other Denarains who have been killed by the Holy Knights, usually from what I remember if they have to kill them, the coins just leave the body and they collect them.
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It's unlikely that Marcone would be an animated corpse. Then there would no longer be any Choice involved. No Knight could offer him redemption because he'd just be a dead body. I don't see why his body would un-heal and fall apart after being repaired. Not only that but other Coin holders have given up Coin's without aging really quickly, or dying, which should have happened if the only thing sustaining them was a Coin.
I wouldn't be shocked if Hannah is running around still. Diedre gave up her Coin to Nicodemus before he killed her.
Nicodemus fished that coin out of her chest after he stabbed her to death.
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Harry used to be "just a thug" in magical combat; I think that's not quite so true since about Changes - see the falling rocks Way trick in the Erlking's Hall fight, and Lea's compliment on mixing fire and ice. In the final fight with Ascher/Lasciel in SG, she was putting out more raw power due to Hellfire, but Harry won by redirecting that power.
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With only a little bit of time to plan, Harry was able to stand up to one of the most powerful mages on the planet: Ebenezar. That said, Harry is not to be underestimated when he has time to plan. Given all that he has gone through since becoming the Winter Knight, the fact that he will *anything and everything* to keep his daughter safe, I'm confident that Harry will be spending a lot of time planning, thinking, and training (with everyone's favorite bigfoot). :)
Plus, Harry will be getting answers from Injun Joe as well. I expect power-ups and planning.
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With only a little bit of time to plan, Harry was able to stand up to one of the most powerful mages on the planet: Ebenezar. That said, Harry is not to be underestimated when he has time to plan. Given all that he has gone through since becoming the Winter Knight, the fact that he will *anything and everything* to keep his daughter safe, I'm confident that Harry will be spending a lot of time planning, thinking, and training (with everyone's favorite bigfoot). :)
Plus, Harry will be getting answers from Injun Joe as well. I expect power-ups and planning.
I agree, especially now that he knows that Marcone has Namshiel's coin. He will prepare for it, he will closely question Michael and Sanya about Namshiel, maybe Butters as well, but he has no experience with Namshiel. He might try to wrangle some indirect information out of Uriel, since he cannot directly help. He may get help from Rashid and possibly LTW, but I doubt that Eb will even speak to him when he learns of the marriage arrangement. He might ask Alfred as well, he might glean some useful information.
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He's several years behind Thorned Marcone in preparing for this confrontation.
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He's several years behind Thorned Marcone in preparing for this confrontation.
But Marcone isn't totally up to speed either. Hary very much does respect the potential now that he has the coin, and of course what a Fallen Angel knows and can do.. But Marcone made mistakes, that is what Harry was taunting him about. Now that he is kicked out of the Council, Harry has no restraints on what knowledge he can acquire now.. The only limitation is getting it, and I bet Bob has a lot of it, Alfred might as well, and practice.
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I think Marcone will outclass Dresden, and be the reason why Harry will wield Excalibur as a real Knight of the Cross.
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I think Marcone will outclass Dresden, and be the reason why Harry will wield Excalibur as a real Knight of the Cross.
Possible, but remember most of the baddies that Harry has gone up against have outclassed him in power, still Harry has managed to survive if not outright win. I think Harry will win because he is mentally more resourceful, he has a real talent for spotting his opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them. That is the main reason why he is such a mouthy smart ass in his fights, yeah, it backfires at times, but mostly it pisses off his opponents. Pissed off people make mistakes, Harry is good at spotting those mistakes and pouncing on them ending in victory.
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The problem being that Marcone is not only smarter then Dresden, more powerful then Dresden, more skilled then Dresden, and has more money and support then Dresden. Marcone knows Dresden- knows his allies, knows how he operates.
Harry will have a lot of growing to do if he wants to beat Denarian!Marcone.
And frankly I doubt if he'll even have replaced his melted shield bracelet by the next crisis. The man is chronically allergic to using his brain or planning ahead.
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The problem being that Marcone is not only smarter then Dresden, more powerful then Dresden, more skilled then Dresden, and has more money and support then Dresden. Marcone knows Dresden- knows his allies, knows how he operates.
Is he really? I mean Harry did a pretty good job of out politicking him and getting what he wanted from him at the post Battle of Chicago meeting of the Accords, just like he did Langtry at the end of Proven Guilty to save Molly. Only a fool underestimates either Harry's power/talent or his intellect.
They did soul gaze once you know, Marcone knows Harry as well as he does him, yet Harry out maneuvered him..
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The problem being that Marcone is not only smarter then Dresden, more powerful then Dresden, more skilled then Dresden, and has more money and support then Dresden. Marcone knows Dresden- knows his allies, knows how he operates.
Harry will have a lot of growing to do if he wants to beat Denarian!Marcone.
And frankly I doubt if he'll even have replaced his melted shield bracelet by the next crisis. The man is chronically allergic to using his brain or planning ahead.
I'll give you 20 bucks if it's not fixed by Mirror Mirror.
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I'll give you 20 bucks if it's not fixed by Mirror Mirror.
Tbh I'm hoping that our Harry manages to loot MM!Harry's corpse for some cool Magic Items.
I mean it took him literally a year+ to build just his staff, he's gonna need to cheat somehow if he wants to be back up to speed by the time of the Apocalypse at this rate.
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Tbh I'm hoping that our Harry manages to loot MM!Harry's corpse for some cool Magic Items.
I mean it took him literally a year+ to build just his staff, he's gonna need to cheat somehow if he wants to be back up to speed by the time of the Apocalypse at this rate.
No, he doesn't need to cheat.. He has at his finger tips all that he needs to kick ass, the Spear, the Eye, and a few other toys.. Let's not forget what Hades said about the Artifacts, paraphrasing, "only those clever enough to steal them is clever and strong enough to use them.." It weren't Marcone and it weren't Nic, it was Harry.
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Tbh I'm hoping that our Harry manages to loot MM!Harry's corpse for some cool Magic Items.
I mean it took him literally a year+ to build just his staff, he's gonna need to cheat somehow if he wants to be back up to speed by the time of the Apocalypse at this rate.
He had the handwavey excuse of not having any actual tools for making half of his kit (because he forgot to ask Thomas) on the island, that doesn't apply now that he's back in town.
No, he doesn't need to cheat.. He has at his finger tips all that he needs to kick ass, the Spear, the Eye, and a few other toys.. Let's not forget what Hades said about the Artifacts, paraphrasing, "only those clever enough to steal them is clever and strong enough to use them.." It weren't Marcone and it weren't Nic, it was Harry.
Those are horrible replacements for tools in a direct fight with the exception of the spear and that one comes with it's own problems according to Harry.
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Those are horrible replacements for tools in a direct fight with the exception of the spear and that one comes with it's own problems according to Harry.
Yes, and Harry understands that and he won't use them except in the most dire of circumstances.
If he is forced into a duel to the death with Marcone/Namshiel, it will be dire..
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Now that he is kicked out of the Council, Harry has no restraints on what knowledge he can acquire now.. The only limitation is getting it, and I bet Bob has a lot of it, Alfred might as well, and practice.
Bob was a secret all along, and the only time Harry asked him for dark / forbidden knowledge, he got so spooked that he ordered Bob to spin off Evil Bob so it would never happen again.
What has changed is he very well might be able to ask Lara for access to the Raith library. That might well have some dirty tricks he could use against a Denarian.
Plus, besides asking Sanya and Michael, Forthill might have something on Namshiel personally.
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Bob was a secret all along, and the only time Harry asked him for dark / forbidden knowledge, he got so spooked that he ordered Bob to spin off Evil Bob so it would never happen again.
What has changed is he very well might be able to ask Lara for access to the Raith library. That might well have some dirty tricks he could use against a Denarian.
Plus, besides asking Sanya and Michael, Forthill might have something on Namshiel personally.
Yes, Bob was a secret, but that is because the Council wanted to squish him. The forbidden knowledge Harry asked for was knowledge Bob gained while in the service of Kemmler. I don't think Harry ordered Bob to spin off Evil Bob as he ordered him to forget or block and further dark knowledge gain while in the employ of Kemmler. This was a mistake because Harry didn't understand exactly what Bob was or how damaging and difficult this would be for him. However having said that Bob hasn't blocked any other knowledge and wouldn't opposed to telling Harry what he knew on a variety of subjects.
Dirty tricks? What do you mean by that? If you mean black magic, not good for Harry. Also I'm not sure that White Court Vamps know all that much about Denarians in the first place. Yes, one of his best bets is to quiz the Holy Knights, especially Michael. I am not sure that Father Forthill can or would answer any of Harry's questions.
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Dirty tricks? What do you mean by that? If you mean black magic, not good for Harry. Also I'm not sure that White Court Vamps know all that much about Denarians in the first place.
They may not, but it never hurts to see. Maybe they have something that's effective against angels ... that would be considered dark, but it's only illegal as far as the Council is concerned if it hurts Marcone the host as well.
(Plus, do Denarians actually count as human for first law purposes? Harry's tried lethal force a few times with no reservations that it would be worth a beheading if he actually succeeded)
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But Marcone isn't totally up to speed either. Hary very much does respect the potential now that he has the coin, and of course what a Fallen Angel knows and can do.. But Marcone made mistakes, that is what Harry was taunting him about. Now that he is kicked out of the Council, Harry has no restraints on what knowledge he can acquire now.. The only limitation is getting it, and I bet Bob has a lot of it, Alfred might as well, and practice.
I think he is still bound to the seven laws in his own mind.
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I think he is still bound to the seven laws in his own mind.
I agree with that, however is teleportation something that is against the Seven Laws? I think there is a lot that Harry can learn and there is nothing save the Senior Council and access that is keeping him from learning it.
(Plus, do Denarians actually count as human for first law purposes? Harry's tried lethal force a few times with no reservations that it would be worth a beheading if he actually succeeded)
The Fallen Angel do not, however their hosts are very human, one could argue more human than the Turtlenecks.
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I agree with that, however is teleportation something that is against the Seven Laws? I think there is a lot that Harry can learn and there is nothing save the Senior Council and access that is keeping him from learning it.
The council never stopped him from looking for knowledge in other places, they just closed parts of their library from him.
The Fallen Angel do not, however their hosts are very human, one could argue more human than the Turtlenecks.
That is how the knights look at it but the council but the line between human and non human is somewhat vague and the council tends to draw it differently, sometimes depending who does the killing.
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I agree with that, however is teleportation something that is against the Seven Laws? I think there is a lot that Harry can learn and there is nothing save the Senior Council and access that is keeping him from learning it.
I mean according to Jim Harry is about a Century away from teleportation at the earliest.
Thorn boy has accelerated Marcone so far past Harry that it's kind a joke.
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I mean according to Jim Harry is about a Century away from teleportation at the earliest.
Thorn boy has accelerated Marcone so far past Harry that it's kind a joke.
I wouldn't give up on Harry yet.. There are other skills besides teleportation.
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I mean according to Jim Harry is about a Century away from teleportation at the earliest.
Thorn boy has accelerated Marcone so far past Harry that it's kind a joke.
Or just being a case of him not learning it yet but being at the right level for him as said by another interview a day or two apart. Consistency? What's that? :P
I wouldn't give up on Harry yet.. There are other skills besides teleportation.
And Marcone has most of them.
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And Marcone has most of them.
Why does everyone assume that Marcone has more skills than Harry? Yes. Namshiel has been giving him crash courses but so far he's only shown two skills that Harry couldn't duplicate, teleportation over short range between two points and the ability to reshape stone.
Marcone has no shield bracelet, no staff and no blasting rods. He has some enchanted muskets. He has access to knowledge but not the power and aptitude to do everything. Marcone will have some new tricks when next he fights, but if Harry puts in some work, so will he. He has Winter and Soulfire to counter Marcone's Hellfire and just flat out more magical juice than Marcone can muster. Plus Harry has the Spear, Shroud and Crown of Thorns in his arsenal. If Marcone can't beat Harry with an early strike or outmaneuver him, Harry will overpower him
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Why does everyone assume that Marcone has more skills than Harry? Yes. Namshiel has been giving him crash courses but so far he's only shown two skills that Harry couldn't duplicate, teleportation over short range between two points and the ability to reshape stone.
Marcone has no shield bracelet, no staff and no blasting rods. He has some enchanted muskets. He has access to knowledge but not the power and aptitude to do everything. Marcone will have some new tricks when next he fights, but if Harry puts in some work, so will he. He has Winter and Soulfire to counter Marcone's Hellfire and just flat out more magical juice than Marcone can muster. Plus Harry has the Spear, Shroud and Crown of Thorns in his arsenal. If Marcone can't beat Harry with an early strike or outmaneuver him, Harry will overpower him
Because Marcone was just casually flinging up shields that could tank Ethniu, he's suddenly got way more guns than Sigrun could previously make, he could obscure Ethniu's vision and he could veil on top of the aforementioned teleportation and disintegration tricks. Any assumption that he's a one trick pony feels unlikely at best.
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Also because Harry is, in fact, a garbage-tier Wizard. He's got the talent for sure, but he's never bothered to develop it in any meaningful sense, instead relying on his big gas tank as a crutch.
Elaine (Half-trained Wizard) is stated to have more skill then him, Carlos (several years his Jr) has more skill then him. His apprentice (who he trained) has more skill then him.
Harry has spent the last decade or so dicking around while everone else caught up to and then surpassed him in skill.
He's like, the Wizard equivalent of "Peaked in High-School" these days.
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Excepts when he wants to and really puts his mind to it.
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Excepts when he wants to and really puts his mind to it.
Exactly, he made vast improvements because he had to teach Molly. We don't know how long Marcone has had the coin, but apparently he never knew of or if he did know, take advantage of
the ancient runes in the walls of what was his castle.. All this says that Marcone isn't studying his new craft either or at all. He is merely allowing himself to be a sock puppet for Namshiel. This is where the problems will come from for him.
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Exactly, he made vast improvements because he had to teach Molly. We don't know how long Marcone has had the coin, but apparently he never knew of or if he did know, take advantage of
the ancient runes in the walls of what was his castle.. All this says that Marcone isn't studying his new craft either or at all. He is merely allowing himself to be a sock puppet for Namshiel. This is where the problems will come from for him.
I think Harry would have missed the Runes too if he wasn't the Warden and if Bob hadn't helped Harry turn the Island's defenses on. It's also possible the Namshiel couldn't interact profitably with the Runes so he didn't point them out?
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I think Harry would have missed the Runes too if he wasn't the Warden and if Bob hadn't helped Harry turn the Island's defenses on. It's also possible the Namshiel couldn't interact profitably with the Runes so he didn't point them out?
Or he just kept it for later. We do not know when Marcone took up the coin so we do not know how much time he had with Marcone.
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I think Harry would have missed the Runes too if he wasn't the Warden and if Bob hadn't helped Harry turn the Island's defenses on. It's also possible the Namshiel couldn't interact profitably with the Runes so he didn't point them out?
Fair enough, though he knew the runes existed from the first time he set foot on the island, it wasn't until he became Warden that they gained significance for him. He didn't miss them, it is just that since he didn't have a whole lot to do with the island he had no reason to study them until he became Warden. The castle was Marcone's home, we don't know when he took up the coin, it could have been right after Small Favor up until just before Peace Talks.. My point is, where was Marcone's curiosity? That is a thing that defines a wizard, apparently Marcone wasn't interested in asking Namshiel what those runes were or for, of if Namshiel did say something about them, he wasn't interested in learning.
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Exactly, he made vast improvements because he had to teach Molly. We don't know how long Marcone has had the coin, but apparently he never knew of or if he did know, take advantage of
the ancient runes in the walls of what was his castle.. All this says that Marcone isn't studying his new craft either or at all. He is merely allowing himself to be a sock puppet for Namshiel. This is where the problems will come from for him.
Instead of rehashing the argument with you about how it's Marcone at the wheel I'm just going to point out that Namshiel at the wheel is actually even worse for Harry because Namshiel casually oneshotted Harry twice while working with a fodder host back in Small Favour and Harry still has no answer to him completely negating force attacks (and presumably also fire) besides spam soulfire and hope Marcone and Namshiel haven't planned for that in the years of planning for a rematch.
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Instead of rehashing the argument with you about how it's Marcone at the wheel I'm just going to point out that Namshiel at the wheel is actually even worse for Harry because Namshiel casually oneshotted Harry twice while working with a fodder host back in Small Favour and Harry still has no answer to him completely negating force attacks (and presumably also fire) besides spam soulfire and hope Marcone and Namshiel haven't planned for that in the years of planning for a rematch.
What is your evidence that old Thorny was merely fodder host? Harry has also come a bit far since Small Favor.. As far as Soul Fire goes, when he went up against Namshiel in that book he didn't even know what he had been gifted with or it's nature, because it had just happened.. Not until he met up with Jake at the hospital and later when Bob explained it to him, and as Harry says in Cold Days, Bob doesn't know much about it.
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What is your evidence that old Thorny was merely fodder host? Harry has also come a bit far since Small Favor.. As far as Soul Fire goes, when he went up against Namshiel in that book he didn't even know what he had been gifted with or it's nature, because it had just happened.. Not until he met up with Jake at the hospital and later when Bob explained it to him, and as Harry says in Cold Days, Bob doesn't know much about it.
The fact that the host was a flesh puppet when it's confirmed that denarians that override their host have a lot less power to work with.
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The fact that the host was a flesh puppet when it's confirmed that denarians that override their host have a lot less power to work with.
Again, we don't know that, if old Thorny was a wizard to begin with, Namshiel could exploit that by presenting the idea that they had this lovely partnership. Consider how much more effective Namshiel would be if Harry had taken him up verses Marcone.. The host is a sock puppet, that doesn't make the Denarian less powerful, anymore than it does a Holy Knight when the angel in charge of the Sword takes over.
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Again, we don't know that, if old Thorny was a wizard to begin with, Namshiel could exploit that by presenting the idea that they had this lovely partnership. Consider how much more effective Namshiel would be if Harry had taken him up verses Marcone.. The host is a sock puppet, that doesn't make the Denarian less powerful, anymore than it does a Holy Knight when the angel in charge of the Sword takes over.
I've got to ask why you're so set on this headcanon that Namshiel's previous host was a full blown wizard in terms of raw power.
As for hosts being weaker it's WoJ.
Q: Why did the Denarians in Small Favor seem less powerful than in Death Masks?
A: If a Fallen has essentially overpowered their human host, then they have limited free will (they can’t use the free will of the human); a Denarian is much more powerful if they use the human as a partner.
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There is your answer, someone who already is a wizard when he or she becomes a host is more apt to be a partner than someone who is a mere sock puppet.. I went and reread the part of Battle Ground where Harry takes over the castle and talks about the runes with Molly. He says that Marcone never did much with them because he had no clue about what they meant and Namshiel either couldn't or didn't teach him... Which says Marcone never was a wizard, if he were he'd get the importance of them, and be most interested in Namshiel translating them for him.