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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on June 08, 2021, 06:41:06 PM
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To to remind anyone who doesn't quite remember what the subject line refers to, it's from Turn Coat when the Gatekeeper confronts Harry on the 'What's up dock'." Specifically, Rashid's dialog with Harry goes like this:
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"And I cannot permit you to openly challenge the White Council to battle."
"No?" I asked, thrusting out my jaw. "Why not?"
His deep, resonant voice sounded troubled. "It is not yet your hour."
I felt my eyebrows go up. "Not yet...?"
He shook his head. "Places in time. This is not the time, or the place....
The first thing I noticed while rereading this passage is that; according to the Gatekeeper, while we can't know the location where Harry will eventually challenge the Council, it won't be on Demonreach. Then again, maybe Harry will challenge the Council to come to Demonreach Island, but they just won't be dumb enough to do that. However, the location of this future showdown is not the primary reason I started this thread.
What I want to do is ask everyone, what do you think will cause Harry to take a direct stand again the White Council? I suppose it could be something as simple as the Council announcing they've declared Harry an outlaw and he preempts them by making the first move, but knowing Harry, he will probably only make an overt challenge against the Council in response to a moral issue he feels he can't back away from. What do you think that could be? Will the Council cross some moral boundary Harry can't accept or will it be something closer to home, like the Council learning about Bob and, or Bonea and demanding they be destroyed? What scenarios have you thought up that would push Harry to take such an extreme action?
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What I want to do is ask everyone, what do you think will cause Harry to take a direct stand again the White Council? I suppose it could be something as simple as the Council announcing they've declared Harry an outlaw and he preempts them by making the first move, but knowing Harry, he will probably only make an overt challenge against the Council in response to a moral issue he feels he can't back away from. What do you think that could be? Will the Council cross some moral boundary Harry can't accept or will it be something closer to home, like the Council learning about Bob and, or Bonea and demanding they be destroyed? What scenarios have you thought up that would push Harry to take such an extreme action?
I've thought about this quite a bit, actually it is another of my favorite passages from the series, mainly because Rashid is one of my favorite characters.
In answer to your question, it may be a moral line that the Council crosses, but it won't be a simple line. It may be a gray area of the Laws of Magic he will ask them to go into, or it's a situation so dire, that some of the Laws have to be broken to prevent disaster. The Merlin and the Senior Council will fall back on the non-involvement clause in their charter, basically CYA for wizards. Harry will argue that it is a moral imperative that they do become involved. If they refuse they are no better than any black magic wielding warlock out there, also pointing out some of the hypocrisy on the part of some of the more august senior members, given their past behaviors. In answer, they will either burn him down or follow him.. ::) Either way, the Council will never be the same again after this.
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Harry will be too busy saving the world and as usual the white council only gets in the way or worse.
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Harry will be too busy saving the world and as usual the white council only gets in the way or worse.
Yeah, but he cannot do it alone, that is my point.. While Harry understands to make a cake you usually have to break a few eggs, the Council doesn't.
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I continue to be perplexed by this line being read like this. I thought the phrase "not your hour" was generally considered a reference to the bible quote that Jesus uses to refer to the crucifixion (ie his death).
"It is not yet your hour" is Rashid telling Harry to stop being a twat and trying to throw down with the Council because he'll die if he does, and Harry dying will cause issues later.
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Harry is going back in time to fix something that's broken. And if you believe Odin he's already done it. And after he does it, he's coming back. The Council is going to try and stop him. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
I continue to be perplexed by this line being read like this. I thought the phrase "not your hour" was generally considered a reference to the bible quote that Jesus uses to refer to the crucifixion (ie his death).
"It is not yet your hour" is Rashid telling Harry to stop being a twat and trying to throw down with the Council because he'll die if he does, and Harry dying will cause issues later.
Rashid is seeing reality branching. You've seen the Mothers do this. And Jim beat you over the head with it in Cold Days.
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Any of the above could be true.
I personally think it will be because the White Council will up the pressure on him. After the events of Battle Ground, particularly his expulsion from the Council and warning from Ramirez, things are in place for a show down. Harry is rarely on the offensive. Mostly people try to bully him and he responds.
I don't know which book it will take place in. I don't think it will be the next one, or the one after that, or even the wrestling one. I'd say it will be the one before the BAT, the one with Dragons and all the big Hollywood moments. Assuming no new books are added. That being said, as the ante has been upped in the latest book it would make sense for it to happen next book. But it seems unlikely given what the book is about, same with the following two books.
Morris, I think you're pretty right about Rashid seeing branching timelines in that scene. I do also think there is a long running background game with time-travel happening. Not sure you have all the pieces but I think you're getting close.
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Standard protocol, file a complaint and they assign you one standard hour to plead your case. GK, whose apparently a paperwork buff, was just explaining Harry had to follow protocol 😅
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Standard protocol, file a complaint and they assign you one standard hour to plead your case. GK, whose apparently a paperwork buff, was just explaining Harry had to follow protocol 😅
It is more to do with the BAT, when Harry comes into full star born childness, maybe sooner than the Council is prepared for.
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It is more to do with the BAT, when Harry comes into full star born childness, maybe sooner than the Council is prepared for.
not good with humor I see..
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not good with humor I see..
Ever been called to court? :o
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Maybe the WC will decide they need to use the fail safe to eliminate the prisoners of Demonreach before they can be released. And Harry won’t won’t let them, as Thomas is still confined (let alone the impact to the local region).
Or maybe the WC will be fully under the control of Nemesis.
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Ever been called to court? :o
yes? 🤔
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yes? 🤔
Then you understand the lack of humor.... ::)
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Then you understand the lack of humor.... ::)
not at all. Not. One. Bit. 😳🤔🤷♂️Especially since it wouldn't be court, more like a council meeting anyway.
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My guess is Cristos corrupts the Council, and they decide to dig a hole and hide. Any wizard overtly getting involved is in big trouble. They'll leave humanity and the lesser talents to fend for themselves while maintaining the secrecy of their existence.
And Harry will rebel against that to help protect humans and lesser talents, and push for a group with wider representation and less secrecy. Something listed in the phone book, even.
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Cristos? I know he's a bit of a politician but he did get involved in the Battle of Chicago. Not exactly non-interventionist policy.
Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.
But the rest of the theory seems solid. Seems more like a Arthur Langtry-style play.
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Cristos? I know he's a bit of a politician but he did get involved in the Battle of Chicago. Not exactly non-interventionist policy.
Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.
But the rest of the theory seems solid. Seems more like a Arthur Langtry-style play.
I feel like Langtry being the bad guy is the red herring of the series, and Cristos is the overt bad guy who's so obvious that his importance and relevance is underestimated by everyone.
But then again, I'm in the "Cristos is Cowl" camp, so...
As for the quote, I'd say Cristos did what he could to not get squashed. Maybe not as successful as he'd hoped, but... ;D
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I know what you mean. But Langtry being defensive doesn't necessarily make him evil, just a bastard. Which I think is probably accurate. I am pretty certain when he dies later in the series (which is almost guaranteed to happen) it will be doing some awesome act to try and protect humanity. He's a bit like Morgan. He looks pretty bad through Harry's eyes. But he is actually trying to protect the mortals the best way he knows how. But I do think he's a bit like Fudge from Harry Potter. He's determined to do things his way until it's too late, and that will cost the world something. But he has his reasons. Not evil, just happens to be taking the wrong path.
Cristos is more complicated than I expected. At first he seems warlike and is called "unpleasant" by Ebenezar, and seems like a serious threat as he deals with a powerful supernatural threat. But when we next seem him he seems more like a greasy, perhaps corrupt perhaps just incompetent, politician. Next we seem him he ends up being friendly with Ebenezar and contributes reasonably to the Battle of Chicago. He mostly just seems like a bit of a fool.
Still, it could all be an act. Perhaps he is more dangerous than we realise. Perhaps he is more malevolent than he appears. But Cristos fought when he could have just disappeared though, or even joined the other team. Hell of an act in my opinion.
If I were to pick someone who is the "obvious" villain choice for Cowl, I would pick Marcone. The only problem with that is that Cowl and Marcone were both at the Raith Deeps.
A far more terrifying background person in the background would be someone like Lord Raith, or Nicodemus. Someone who has taken great pains to hide their magic (if they were Cowl). Both are poor fits though as both don't seem to care to be in the background that much. They're pretty scary anyway (by and large, excusing Lord Raith's present situation and Nicodemus' recent defeats). And Lord Raith was also at the Deeps at the same time Cowl was.
For this reason it's why I think it's someone we haven't met, like Simon or Kemmler (yes he was in that short story but Harry hasn't met him) or Justin (only seen in flashbacks, not actually a part of the series from what we've seen). It could even be one of the Librarians, which would make a bit of sense considering they would be preparing to fight wizards. Father Forthill is also an interesting candidate as he fits a few patterns, but I would have thought Harry would have sensed his magical aura by now. I'll eat my hat if it was Ebenezar. That would make no sense. Alt-universe/TT Harry/Id Harry would make some sense...but Cowl calls Dresden a child. Possible if that Harry was much older than the one he encountered in Dead Beat. But seems a stretch. LtW doesn't make sense, nor does pretty much any other wizard. So I am still leaning on an unmet as yet wizard character. But I doubt we will know until a lot later in the series.
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See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
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PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.
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PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.
Only reasonable answer is they feared that Harry and the good people of Chicago would lose. And in that event some wizards had to hang back where it was safe to fight another day.
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Or they were just in there to get the eye and when Harry kept it for himself....
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Or they were just in there to get the eye and when Harry kept it for himself....
Well, if that were true, you'd think that Langtry himself would have played clean up and not Marcone/Namshiel to assist Harry is shipping Ethniu off to Demonreach...
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Cristos is more complicated than I expected. At first he seems warlike and is called "unpleasant" by Ebenezar, and seems like a serious threat as he deals with a powerful supernatural threat. But when we next seem him he seems more like a greasy, perhaps corrupt perhaps just incompetent, politician. Next we seem him he ends up being friendly with Ebenezar and contributes reasonably to the Battle of Chicago. He mostly just seems like a bit of a fool.
Still, it could all be an act. Perhaps he is more dangerous than we realise. Perhaps he is more malevolent than he appears. But Cristos fought when he could have just disappeared though, or even joined the other team. Hell of an act in my opinion.
If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.
Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.
It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.
Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.
Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.
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See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
p
PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.
Or to put it charitably to Cristos, his first impulse is to go for the peaceful option over the violent one.
If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.
Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.
It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.
Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.
Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.
And here I thought you were on the Simon Cowl train.
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See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
p
PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.
Can the Mantle's actually be corrupted? I am not so certain that the Merlin has one either...what makes you say that? It's possible Langtry was doing a Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, and letting Peabody (his servant) take the fall. But why then, would the Merlin also have been targeted and possibly influenced by the psychic ink? Seems a bit odd. The ink also explains so of his poor behaviour - encouraging his defensive mindset and making him overly cautious etc.
To be fair the the Merlin and the rest of the White Council, the Fomor took everyone by surprise. As far as I can see not one person was prepared or expecting what happened in Battle Ground. Sure, most of them knew the Fomor were treacherous. But they didn't expect a full-scale invasion. A destruction of the status quo. I suspect if they had known what was coming, the White Council might have taken appropriate counter-measures, along with the other accorded nations depending on who informed whom. The Eye didn't attract them, it kept them on the field. Most of those who fought were already in Chicago.
If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.
Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.
It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.
Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.
When you put it like that it does look very bad for Cristos. At the very least it makes him look like he's being manipulated. But playing devil's advocate here there is an alternate explanation.
He also could just be an idiot. A sort-of well meaning idiot ending up running the Council just when it needs to be at its strongest, and ends up being at its weakest. That's potentially more dangerous to the longevity of the Council.
Let's say Cristos is a power hungry, pompous buffoon. He wants to be the big man. So someone (Black Council perhaps) feeds his ego and helps put him in place to be promoted to SC once a SC member is removed...and arranges that very thing. Then Cristos thinks he can "save" the Council from their horrible war and tries to negotiate an armistice with the Vampires etc. Which would have made things worse for the Council but he believes he is the hero doing the right thing.
However, I am not saying any of the above is the case - merely that's an alternative argument. One thing that stands out is that Cristos apparently had loyalists kidnap and detain most of the Wardens. Forty percent of the senior most wardens. This is in Changes and apparently takes place after Harry leaves Edinburgh. Ramirez and Luccio are both captured. This is interesting I think, especially as Ramirez undergoes a slight behaviour change. He also becomes more loyal to the Council than before.
I think it's a good point you mention the McCoy is always near Cristos. The White Council's hitman seems to now always be right next to Cristos. This is as far back as Changes such as when Cristos and McCoy are the only two Senior Council members on stage with Arianna. This could be interpreted a few ways. Either they are now inseparable best friends and joined at the hip, or that it's all just coincidence they are together, or that McCoy has been assigned to watch the most disturbing threat on the Council and execute him should he prove to be the danger they think he is.
The third option could well be the most likely. I would be a little disappointed if Cristos was Cowl, although I do see how it's very possible. Mostly because Cristos got wrecked in Battle Ground and I would expect a wizard of Cowl's level to be much more threatening. However, I could also see that Cristos might just be on Cowl's team. This might lend weight to the Cowl is Simon theory as they're both possibly part of the same faction.
Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.
Assuming Cristos is Cowl of course. Cowl seemed to want to end the Council, not change it. But there are many paths to victory after all.
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And here I thought you were on the Simon Cowl train.
Nah, I've been a Cristos/Cowl vote almost since he first appeared on the page. But I like Simon theories, and I'd prefer him over Justin or someone else.
When you put it like that it does look very bad for Cristos. At the very least it makes him look like he's being manipulated. But playing devil's advocate here there is an alternate explanation.
He also could just be an idiot. A sort-of well meaning idiot ending up running the Council just when it needs to be at its strongest, and ends up being at its weakest. That's potentially more dangerous to the longevity of the Council.
Let's say Cristos is a power hungry, pompous buffoon. He wants to be the big man. So someone (Black Council perhaps) feeds his ego and helps put him in place to be promoted to SC once a SC member is removed...and arranges that very thing. Then Cristos thinks he can "save" the Council from their horrible war and tries to negotiate an armistice with the Vampires etc. Which would have made things worse for the Council but he believes he is the hero doing the right thing.
However, I am not saying any of the above is the case - merely that's an alternative argument. One thing that stands out is that Cristos apparently had loyalists kidnap and detain most of the Wardens. Forty percent of the senior most wardens. This is in Changes and apparently takes place after Harry leaves Edinburgh. Ramirez and Luccio are both captured. This is interesting I think, especially as Ramirez undergoes a slight behaviour change. He also becomes more loyal to the Council than before.
I think it's a good point you mention the McCoy is always near Cristos. The White Council's hitman seems to now always be right next to Cristos. This is as far back as Changes such as when Cristos and McCoy are the only two Senior Council members on stage with Arianna. This could be interpreted a few ways. Either they are now inseparable best friends and joined at the hip, or that it's all just coincidence they are together, or that McCoy has been assigned to watch the most disturbing threat on the Council and execute him should he prove to be the danger they think he is.
The third option could well be the most likely. I would be a little disappointed if Cristos was Cowl, although I do see how it's very possible. Mostly because Cristos got wrecked in Battle Ground and I would expect a wizard of Cowl's level to be much more threatening. However, I could also see that Cristos might just be on Cowl's team. This might lend weight to the Cowl is Simon theory as they're both possibly part of the same faction.
Assuming Cristos is Cowl of course. Cowl seemed to want to end the Council, not change it. But there are many paths to victory after all.
Cristos could just be the latest version of Aurora/Maeve/Vito, where Cowl and/or Nemesis are promoting new people to accorded nation leadership positions.
But Cristos is different, because unlike all the others, he succeeded.
As for getting curb-stomped in BG, Cristos survived something most wouldn't. And we've seen Cowl be curb-stomped as well, and injured enough to take years to recover. They're both roaches that survive, but not by hiding or escaping.
And as for Cowl wanting the Council gone, he talks in Dead Beat like he wants the rules changed rather than the Council destroyed. He thinks the Council will fall, and might have expedited it himself, but what he seemed to want was the freedom to explore dark magic. If Cristos could have taken power and convinced the survivors to change the rules to better protect themselves, it would accomplish what Cowl wanted.
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Cristos could just be the latest version of Aurora/Maeve/Vito, where Cowl and/or Nemesis are promoting new people to accorded nation leadership positions.
But Cristos is different, because unlike all the others, he succeeded.
As for getting curb-stomped in BG, Cristos survived something most wouldn't. And we've seen Cowl be curb-stomped as well, and injured enough to take years to recover. They're both roaches that survive, but not by hiding or escaping.
And as for Cowl wanting the Council gone, he talks in Dead Beat like he wants the rules changed rather than the Council destroyed. He thinks the Council will fall, and might have expedited it himself, but what he seemed to want was the freedom to explore dark magic. If Cristos could have taken power and convinced the survivors to change the rules to better protect themselves, it would accomplish what Cowl wanted.
Yes that's certainly possible. Very in-line with Nemesis/Black Council tactics of the past. Get you're own person in a leadership position and cause chaos. Although to be fair Aurora and Maeve already had leadership positions. Often its really just turning people in positions of power into agents. Which is a very effective real world tactic after all.
Did Cristos survive? I wasn't sure if that was confirmed yet. But I might have missed something too. One thing though is Cristos seems to have a different style of magic than Cowl. Cristos in Battle Ground uses large-scale earth magic. Impressive feats like helping Ebenezer make a large amount of earth become something like quicksand, or sort-of becoming a living landslide. Cowl was a bit more precise, likes to use sudden and powerful bursts of evocation. Like very skillful yet fast Ways. Force magic, mind magic, illusion/shapeshifting, Ways, and thaumaturgy. Possibly only used necromancy when he tried the Darkhallow out (not that he was incapable of raising the dead, but clearly didn't want to expend his energies that way). Different situations of course than Battle Ground. Finally, what he said to Dresden stood out to me. "I have no intention of fighting them, I'm simply going to kill them" and "I have no intention of entering a tactical contest" both of these things he says to Harry in Dead Beat. Cowl seems like he doesn't mind killing if he has to, doesn't mind a duel. But he isn't about battles and fair fights etc. Cristos might be in the same vein. But he went into the fight all the same.
That's a fair argument. Council destroyed, Council changed, doesn't matter as long as the end result is being able to push the limits of magic and break the rules.
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Yes that's certainly possible. Very in-line with Nemesis/Black Council tactics of the past. Get you're own person in a leadership position and cause chaos. Although to be fair Aurora and Maeve already had leadership positions. Often its really just turning people in positions of power into agents. Which is a very effective real world tactic after all.
Did Cristos survive? I wasn't sure if that was confirmed yet. But I might have missed something too. One thing though is Cristos seems to have a different style of magic than Cowl. Cristos in Battle Ground uses large-scale earth magic. Impressive feats like helping Ebenezer make a large amount of earth become something like quicksand, or sort-of becoming a living landslide. Cowl was a bit more precise, likes to use sudden and powerful bursts of evocation. Like very skillful yet fast Ways. Force magic, mind magic, illusion/shapeshifting, Ways, and thaumaturgy. Possibly only used necromancy when he tried the Darkhallow out (not that he was incapable of raising the dead, but clearly didn't want to expend his energies that way). Different situations of course than Battle Ground. Finally, what he said to Dresden stood out to me. "I have no intention of fighting them, I'm simply going to kill them" and "I have no intention of entering a tactical contest" both of these things he says to Harry in Dead Beat. Cowl seems like he doesn't mind killing if he has to, doesn't mind a duel. But he isn't about battles and fair fights etc. Cristos might be in the same vein. But he went into the fight all the same.
That's a fair argument. Council destroyed, Council changed, doesn't matter as long as the end result is being able to push the limits of magic and break the rules.
Yeah, I think for Cowl, it's not a matter of how. He just wants the freedom to do what he wants, and knows that the Council will oppose him. And if he's Cristos, then his ongoing involvement with the Council is the result of the plan failing, and he's trapped in a public position.
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Yeah, I think for Cowl, it's not a matter of how. He just wants the freedom to do what he wants, and knows that the Council will oppose him. And if he's Cristos, then his ongoing involvement with the Council is the result of the plan failing, and he's trapped in a public position.
Then the question is, what does Cowl want to do? Is it merely "I want to be able to practice black magic to my hearts content and kill, control, and otherwise do what I like to people as I am god-king" or is it more around the fact the Council won't allow any political interference, persecute even minor infractions with serious and sometimes fatal results, have no real court of appeal and an overly simplistic and out-dated legal structure, let alone the outdated and overly simplistic and often unrepresentative voting system, and governing body that is effectively immune to criticism or change?
I mean, if it's the later you can hardly blame the guy. The Council if it existed in our world would be a disaster of an organisation. I suspect though it's a bit of both.
If Cowl is Cristos, I doubt he will continue the charade much longer. I'd expect reforms that benefit him and his supporters to happen, probably while he politically or literally kills his opponents.
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I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.
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I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.
Then it’s now time for a schism. What is a pope without an antipope?
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I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
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Then the question is, what does Cowl want to do? Is it merely "I want to be able to practice black magic to my hearts content and kill, control, and otherwise do what I like to people as I am god-king" or is it more around the fact the Council won't allow any political interference, persecute even minor infractions with serious and sometimes fatal results, have no real court of appeal and an overly simplistic and out-dated legal structure, let alone the outdated and overly simply and often unrepresentative voting system, and governing body that is effectively immune to criticism or change?
I mean, if it's the later you can hardly blame the guy. The Council if it existed in our world would be a disaster of an organisation. I suspect though it's a bit of both.
If Cowl is Cristos, I doubt he will continue the charade much longer. I'd expect reforms that benefit him and his supporters to happen, probably while he politically or literally kills his opponents.
If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic, probably due to dabbling with outsider magic, and he's gotten worse because of it.
Then it’s now time for a schism. What is a pope without an antipope?
We almost had it at the end of Turn Coat, with Cristos "the savior" threatening to take a third of the Council with him if he didn't become Senior.
I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.
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If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic
He had bad dreams about his wife dying in Childbirth you see...
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He had bad dreams about his wife dying in Childbirth you see...
Exactly. And now he's got great plans for his new empire.
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I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.
With all the buildup it's gotten that'd be a bit disappointing.
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With all the buildup it's gotten that'd be a bit disappointing.
It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.
In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.
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I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
I suspect it has already happened off the page. Battle Ground was the final series of events that started with Changes. There are a few pointers, most of the North American contingent sidelined or dead. Carlos telling Harry that the Council thinks it can dictate to Eb and make it stick. Morgan gone. Luccio sidelined. This is how it works. There is no indication that the Circle was exclusively Cowl and that others weren't waiting to take control quietly, politically.
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Why wasn't The Merlin in PT. He is an excellent politician so I would think he would have been the best one for the job of smoothing things over between Accorded Nations. Why would he send Cristos an inferior politician unless he had something else going on or an ulterior motive?
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I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the inspiration, although I am sure it's not the only one. Especially in the earlier books the Council and it's actions are used to show the frustrations that many have of governing bodies etc. I don't know if these are Jim's personal views or not but Harry definitely has a bit of a libertarian vibe. Not that I am saying that's a bad thing or a good thing, just the read I got from what Harry says about such things from time to time.
I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
Agreed. Assuming there are enough left to have more than two sides when whatever happens to the White Council occurs. A schism could leave several factions to fight it out. But they could also be slaughtered by some horrible demon or god or whatever, which would leave next to none available. Neither would be good for humanity on the whole. '
I'd guess the first option will occur sooner rather than later as the Librarians will show up and the tension increases between Harry and the Council. I assume Harry will be the one challenging the Council but it's possible there will be others, and it's possible Harry will be being used as a tool. The other scenario would either happen immediately after Harry challenges the Council OR much later during the BAT. The book that feels most likely is next book or the final book before the BAT (I think it's the one with dragons).
If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic, probably due to dabbling with outsider magic, and he's gotten worse because of it.
We almost had it at the end of Turn Coat, with Cristos "the savior" threatening to take a third of the Council with him if he didn't become Senior.
I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.
Depends if you fall into the camp of Cowl is telling the truth about ending death or not. Kemmler clearly was more than an anarchist - he had grand plans for the world. I'd say that he chose Cowl because he truly believed Cowl could help him with that. Of Cowl's apprentices, Cowl seems to be following that path the closest but he also is the most disdainful of Kemmler and clearly thinks his plans are better and saner. Which suggests some possible altruistic motives even if he can't see how dark his outcomes are. Cowl surely is corrupted because of dark magic, like most warlocks are, yet we don't see him gibbering like most of them either. Which suggests that either he understands a bit about how the corruption happens and thinks he has taken steps to control it, or it's affecting him in a very different way (yet still making him go insane). The fact that his magic didn't feel as evil as Corpsetakers or Grevane suggests the former is more likely.
We could see it in the next book in a certain scenario. Something like when Peabody attacks the White Council would fit Jim's patterns. There might be some summit or congregation of the majority of the Council and it goes to hell. But I would like to see Jim do something a bit different for a change. For instance, if Harry got work from Ebenezar that the Council has fallen and Cristos is in control of what remains, and several Senior Council wizards are dead or missing etc, Cristos had the backing of Outsiders or other terrible beings, and Harry should prepare for an assault in a few hours. Seems like the premise of a horrible weekend in Harry's life. That's right when Harry gets pulled into the Mirror Mirror universe OR the Librarians start attack wizards OR horrible monsters start attacking and Molly is captured and the world will end soon etc. Maybe all of it.
It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.
In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.
Agreed. I sincerely doubt Cowl is just some fanatic fawning for the return of the Old Ones. I am sure he believes he can manipulate the coming cycle somehow and achieve his aims, likely a new world order. He even mentioned something along those lines I believe.
I suspect it has already happened off the page. Battle Ground was the final series of events that started with Changes. There are a few pointers, most of the North American contingent sidelined or dead. Carlos telling Harry that the Council thinks it can dictate to Eb and make it stick. Morgan gone. Luccio sidelined. This is how it works. There is no indication that the Circle was exclusively Cowl and that others weren't waiting to take control quietly, politically.
Seems more like opening moves rather than the main event. The Merlin is still in control (apparently), the Gatekeeper is still around and I doubt he would allow the collapse of the White Council until he thinks it's appropriate. Ebenezar survived Battle Ground and I doubt he will allow the White Council's destruction at this stage, unless he were behind it (which I am not convinced of). Martha Liberty is still around too. But I think over the past few years it has been chipped away at and prepared for it's eventual takeover/destruction.
Why wasn't The Merlin in PT. He is an excellent politician so I would think he would have been the best one for the job of smoothing things over between Accorded Nations. Why would he send Cristos an inferior politician unless he had something else going on or an ulterior motive?
Because you don't send the CEO or President for routine meetings. The peace talks summit wasn't meant to be the opening for an enormous battle. Secondly, Cristos isn't necessarily an inferior politician. By some measures he is the better politician. Think of what he achieved. He has united such a strong block of wizards he could start his own Council if he seceded, and used that leverage to get a position on the Senior Council. Ever since he has increased his power and influence, much at the expense of other Senior Council wizards including the Merlin. In Peace Talks it's even noted that Cristos is throwing around a lot of orders now and so it wasn't necessarily the Merlin who organised the vote to kick Harry out.
Beyond that, the Merlin may have had an idea not to attend (via his future Sight - just a hint not the full picture) or the Gatekeeper might have warned him away. He also might have been busy with other matters...like the possible fall of the White Council. The peace talks were only a part of the Council's responsibilities and operations, and who knows what else he had to deal with. Aside from all that, he's a huge target out in the open and you don't risk your leader in compromising events if you don't have to - just like the peace talks ended up being.
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Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.
but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.
I don't know if trying hard not to be squashed by Ethniu was harder than being in Wisconsin, I take that line to mean that members of the Black Council were in Chicago and actively fighting. What if the setup is that Eb is black council due to his hatred of the White Court? The kind of hate he demonstrated and how "out of control" he was, to the point of killing Harry could show that he'd do anything to destroy the Whamps. He's the black staff, so he's already proven he is an end justify the means kind of guy. Maybe the black council is the necessary evil to get him what he wants. The level of betrayal of Eb being on the black council could be the thing that brings Harry to the point of defying the White Council and forcing Eb to face him because of the parole conditions imposed by the White Council. And that kind of evil shit is not beyond Mr. Butcher.
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It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.
In the end it is all about the outsiders, the outsiders puppets and people who think they can use the outsiders for their own purposes.
In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.
The cackling bootlicker is not how it started. It is not even how it was most of the time. It is just how it ends before he is discarded and dies.
It is just not safety play with outsiders whatever your motivation is. Being on their side does not end well.
They are Lovecraft based after all.
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Depends if you fall into the camp of Cowl is telling the truth about ending death or not.
it's been a loooong time since I looked into it, so I can't remember which mythos I sourced it from, but ending death is the first step to unmaking reality. Can't have good without evil, sunlight without rain, ect. Can't live if there's no death.
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Death is part of reality so if you change that…
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Because you don't send the CEO or President for routine meetings. The peace talks summit wasn't meant to be the opening for an enormous battle. Secondly, Cristos isn't necessarily an inferior politician. By some measures he is the better politician. Think of what he achieved. He has united such a strong block of wizards he could start his own Council if he seceded, and used that leverage to get a position on the Senior Council. Ever since he has increased his power and influence, much at the expense of other Senior Council wizards including the Merlin. In Peace Talks it's even noted that Cristos is throwing around a lot of orders now and so it wasn't necessarily the Merlin who organised the vote to kick Harry out.
Um, the peace talks with the Fomor was hardly routine... Look who attended it, not just the likes of Mab, but Farrafax and Odin as well, more like G-7 talks and yup, the President of the United States attends those.. So yes, the Merlin should have been there, why wasn't he? I think there is a lot more to come on that front.. I wouldn't be shocked if Langtry, incognito, shows up on Harry's door and presents a totally different picture from what Carlos told Harry. Not unlike the aside in Changes when he basically said," I know what it looks like we're saying, but we need you to continue going after the Red Court." It may no longer be just Peabody ink, but something even more serious, Nemesis infections among the most influential of the Senior Council.
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Um, the peace talks with the Fomor was hardly routine... Look who attended it, not just the likes of Mab, but Farrafax and Odin as well, more like G-7 talks and yup, the President of the United States attends those.. So yes, the Merlin should have been there, why wasn't he? I think there is a lot more to come on that front.. I wouldn't be shocked if Langtry, incognito, shows up on Harry's door and presents a totally different picture from what Carlos told Harry. Not unlike the aside in Changes when he basically said," I know what it looks like we're saying, but we need you to continue going after the Red Court." It may no longer be just Peabody ink, but something even more serious, Nemesis infections among the most influential of the Senior Council.
You know what's odd? Odin, Ferro, Mab, and all these other big names showed up.. Basically supernatural royalty... Does the Council send The Merlin? No.... They send the Blackstaff... That's quite the message, I think. I mean imagine that... The Council didn't send a leader, they sent an assassin, a super soldier, a destroyer.
I suspect that they knew something big was going to go down, but just weren't sure what it was.... If that weren't the case I'd think Langtry would have been there...
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You know what's odd? Odin, Ferro, Mab, and all these other big names showed up.. Basically supernatural royalty... Does the Council send The Merlin? No.... They send the Blackstaff... That's quite the message, I think. I mean imagine that... The Council didn't send a leader, they sent an assassin, a super soldier, a destroyer.
I suspect that they knew something big was going to go down, but just weren't sure what it was.... If that weren't the case I'd think Langtry would have been there...
Most knew about the nature of the Fomor. I think most expected a betrayal in some way. Maybe they did not want to risk the Merlin.
It had probably more to do with internal politics. The Merlin send everyone he did not really trust and if they got wounded or worse he would hold all the cards, literally. He could expel Harry easily and who knows what else he did with that opportunity.
Often foreign policy has more to do with internal policy than with the groups external interests.
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I think the most interesting thing about Peace Talks is which Senior Council members and other high-ranking wizards are sent to the talks and which stay behind.
McCoy
Listens to Wind
Liberty
Christos*
Stays Behind: Merlin, Mai
Outer Gates: Rashid
Of Harry's known supporters, only Rashid is missing. This, of course, is unsurprising since Rashid does not participate that actively in Senior Council shenanigans.
In addition, all of Harry's friends/supporters among the New Guard Wardens are sent -- Chandler, Rameriz, Yuki, Wild Bill.
One is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action. EVERY Harry supporter on the Senior Council is unable to attend the meeting? Every. Last. One. All of Harry's friends among the Wardens save Ramirez and Lucio are unable to attend the meeting. Every. Last. One.
What's the result. We know from Proven Guilty that Merlin holds ALL their proxies. Merlin votes for McCoy, Listens to Wind, Liberty and Rashid (who undoubtedly is busy at the Gates) to expel Harry -- at least. He may well have voted for Christos as well. Ramirez, whose faith in Harry is already shaken, is permanently (seemingly) divided from Harry by being manipulated by Langtry in being the messenger. Langtry knows Harry well enough to know that Harry would "shoot" the messenger, given his persistent oppositional defiance disorder. Langtry has long wanted Ramirez on "team Langtry" to counterbalance Harry's popularity among the younger wizards.
Seems like he succeeded. Bigly.
* Christos may actually be a Harry supporter. Yes, he benefited from Fortier's death; yes, he didn't like Harry interfering with his "diplomacy" in changes; yes, Harry suspects him of being on the Black Council. But, his inclusion on the "away Team" means that the Merlin may have wanted him out of the way for his Harry vote scheme.
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It just means the merlin does not trust Christos either.
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I think the most interesting thing about Peace Talks is which Senior Council members and other high-ranking wizards are sent to the talks and which stay behind.
McCoy
Listens to Wind
Liberty
Christos*
Stays Behind: Merlin, Mai
Outer Gates: Rashid
Of Harry's known supporters, only Rashid is missing. This, of course, is unsurprising since Rashid does not participate that actively in Senior Council shenanigans.
In addition, all of Harry's friends/supporters among the New Guard Wardens are sent -- Chandler, Rameriz, Yuki, Wild Bill.
One is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action. EVERY Harry supporter on the Senior Council is unable to attend the meeting? Every. Last. One. All of Harry's friends among the Wardens save Ramirez and Lucio are unable to attend the meeting. Every. Last. One.
What's the result. We know from Proven Guilty that Merlin holds ALL their proxies. Merlin votes for McCoy, Listens to Wind, Liberty and Rashid (who undoubtedly is busy at the Gates) to expel Harry -- at least. He may well have voted for Christos as well. Ramirez, whose faith in Harry is already shaken, is permanently (seemingly) divided from Harry by being manipulated by Langtry in being the messenger. Langtry knows Harry well enough to know that Harry would "shoot" the messenger, given his persistent oppositional defiance disorder. Langtry has long wanted Ramirez on "team Langtry" to counterbalance Harry's popularity among the younger wizards.
Seems like he succeeded. Bigly.
* Christos may actually be a Harry supporter. Yes, he benefited from Fortier's death; yes, he didn't like Harry interfering with his "diplomacy" in changes; yes, Harry suspects him of being on the Black Council. But, his inclusion on the "away Team" means that the Merlin may have wanted him out of the way for his Harry vote scheme.
The Gates were under heavy attack so Gatekeeper being there would make sense. I didn't even remember her being at the Peace Talks. When did she vanish because I dont' think she was fighting at the end.
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The last we saw of Martha Liberty was on the roof of the castle when Harry summons the Wild Fae. She was there using her own Fae contacts to help with intel and communication.
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All the Senior Council was at Chicago save, except Merlin, Mai and Gatekeeper.
One assumes that Gatekeeper was very busy during the simultaneous attacks.
We know that McCoy, Listens-to-Wind and Christos were badly injured in the fighting based on Harry's. Listens-to-Wind broke his back and Christos was severely burned. McCoy looked like he was going to stroke out.
I don't think we were told what happened to Liberty. It may be that she was fine; it may be that she was also in bad shape -- most everyone was in bad shape afterwards. Either way, she was a shaky vote for Dresden and even if she was available for the "Dresden Expulsion" Meeting, the count still would have been Merlin 6 (Merlin, Mai, proxy McCoy, proxy LTW, proxy Rashid, proxy Christos) to Dresden 1 (Liberty at best). Liberty strikes me as someone would might support Dresden with cover fire, but not the kind of person that would go it alone.
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Mai is both the merlin’s most loyal ally and the least suitable for pitched battle. The Merlin was positioning himself to make the most use of the situation.
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Mai is both the merlin’s most loyal ally and the least suitable for pitched battle. The Merlin was positioning himself to make the most use of the situation.
Or if one wants to be really cynical about it, the Merlin calculated that the peace talks were doomed to fail, so avoided any possibility of being held personally held responsible for them. At the same time he could claim that the White Council had sent a powerful delegation to the talks. One has to wonder though, was the reason for no White Council representation at the important meeting
following the battle due to his failure not to show up at the peace talks?
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One has to wonder though, was the reason for no White Council representation at the important meeting
following the battle due to his failure not to show up at the peace talks?
Harry's narration was pretty clear about that - they were freezing the Council out because they weren't confident where the self-appointed protectors of humanity would stand on supernatural nations and freeholding lords preparing for war against the vanillas.
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Or if one wants to be really cynical about it, the Merlin calculated that the peace talks were doomed to fail, so avoided any possibility of being held personally held responsible for them. At the same time he could claim that the White Council had sent a powerful delegation to the talks. One has to wonder though, was the reason for no White Council representation at the important meeting
following the battle due to his failure not to show up at the peace talks?
Right, what did Merlin know and when did he know it? EVERYONE else assumed that the talks would go well -- even Mab and Odin were taken by surprise. Sure, there was that Thomas v Svartelve thing, but that was very much as subsidiary issue.
The combat centric focus of the White Council delegation is suspicious. Everyone -- including Christos -- had a formidable martial reputation, save for Liberty.
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Unless the Merlin had foreknowledge, there is no trickery with the delegation other than tilting the vote against Harry's expulsion. Martha Liberty is an exception amongst the current Senior Council because she is not known as a formidable fighter. Everyone else, Harry describes as a badass he wouldn't want to go against.
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All the Senior Council was at Chicago save, except Merlin, Mai and Gatekeeper.
One assumes that Gatekeeper was very busy during the simultaneous attacks.
We know that McCoy, Listens-to-Wind and Christos were badly injured in the fighting based on Harry's. Listens-to-Wind broke his back and Christos was severely burned. McCoy looked like he was going to stroke out.
I don't think we were told what happened to Liberty. It may be that she was fine; it may be that she was also in bad shape -- most everyone was in bad shape afterwards. Either way, she was a shaky vote for Dresden and even if she was available for the "Dresden Expulsion" Meeting, the count still would have been Merlin 6 (Merlin, Mai, proxy McCoy, proxy LTW, proxy Rashid, proxy Christos) to Dresden 1 (Liberty at best). Liberty strikes me as someone would might support Dresden with cover fire, but not the kind of person that would go it alone.
I personally assumed she was one of the unflappable Harry's command over the Little Folk disturbed. She has extensive contacts among the spirits and loa- she is the one most likely to know of some rising Za Lord but not know who it was
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I personally assumed she was one of the unflappable Harry's command over the Little Folk disturbed. She has extensive contacts among the spirits and loa- she is the one most likely to know of some rising Za Lord but not know who it was
The expulsion was by majority vote, not just SC. Though my read on it is she was the most likely to have reported him killing the turtlenecks to trigger the death sentence by SC vote, but probably also the primary mover for getting it suspended instead of passed. I think you're right - she's rattled and wants a tighter leash on him.
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The expulsion was by majority vote, not just SC. Though my read on it is she was the most likely to have reported him killing the turtlenecks to trigger the death sentence by SC vote, but probably also the primary mover for getting it suspended instead of passed. I think you're right - she's rattled and wants a tighter leash on him.
Majority? Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates.. The Merlin had to have known that smelled too much of a "kangaroo court," even for him, so they switched it to expulsion, also knowing that like the proverbial bad penny, Harry will turn up again, then with clear consciences they can order his death..
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Majority? Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates.. The Merlin had to have known that smelled too much of a "kangaroo court," even for him, so they switched it to expulsion, also knowing that like the proverbial bad penny, Harry will turn up again, then with clear consciences they can order his death..
They did not dare to actually kill Harry because they are afraid of Mab.
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Majority? Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates..
No, majority of the open council membership. The expulsion vote came first and was open to all members. That's why Ebenezar was advising in PT that Harry should go to Edinburgh and shake some hands with the other members to reassure them before they voted on him, before everything went pear-shaped.
According to Carlos, it was the suspended capital sentence for roasting turtlenecks that the Merlin decided behind closed doors with Ancient Mai (and, I assume, Martha Liberty). That came after the expulsion vote passed.
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The expulsion was by majority vote, not just SC. Though my read on it is she was the most likely to have reported him killing the turtlenecks to trigger the death sentence by SC vote, but probably also the primary mover for getting it suspended instead of passed. I think you're right - she's rattled and wants a tighter leash on him.
The whole Harry-just-deputized-Toot-rather-than-trying-to-understand-what-he-was-doing vis-a-vis the Za Lord is one of the plots I find most interesting.
I'm now banking on Martha being the one to spill the beans. Crossing my fingers he's becoming an immortal Fae Lord with no clue as to the fact.
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The whole Harry-just-deputized-Toot-rather-than-trying-to-understand-what-he-was-doing vis-a-vis the Za Lord is one of the plots I find most interesting.
I'm now banking on Martha being the one to spill the beans. Crossing my fingers he's becoming an immortal Fae Lord with no clue as to the fact.
Martha spilling which beans? Meaning she's actually on Harry's side? That'd make sense in an offbeat way. She's seemed to stay the farthest from him of his erstwhile allies in the council. Could be she's trying to lay low because she knows something is after Harry's allies. Hard to stab someone in the back from a distance. I more expect a traitor we trust.
On the immortal fae being line. Jogged an idea, immortals gain power from mortal belief yes? Could it work, in a slightly different way, in reverse? Harry's gaining faeness from being worshipped as a semi deity by the Za guard? This combined with known feats/challenges conquered equates some sort of immortal status? As example, let's look at a mash up of classic Hercules show and Disney's. You could say doing the 12 labors gained him the recognition amongst the gods to grant him status perhaps?
Idk, just thinking there might be something to immortal peerage acceptance/worship.
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Martha spilling which beans? Meaning she's actually on Harry's side? That'd make sense in an offbeat way. She's seemed to stay the farthest from him of his erstwhile allies in the council. Could be she's trying to lay low because she knows something is after Harry's allies. Hard to stab someone in the back from a distance. I more expect a traitor we trust.
On the immortal fae being line. Jogged an idea, immortals gain power from mortal belief yes? Could it work, in a slightly different way, in reverse? Harry's gaining faeness from being worshipped as a semi deity by the Za guard? This combined with known feats/challenges conquered equates some sort of immortal status? As example, let's look at a mash up of classic Hercules show and Disney's. You could say doing the 12 labors gained him the recognition amongst the gods to grant him status perhaps?
Idk, just thinking there might be something to immortal peerage acceptance/worship.
While Harry waking up one day to find out that he's the Faerie Queen of Pizza would be great for a laugh, I think the Series is going down a more serious path then that.
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No, majority of the open council membership. The expulsion vote came first and was open to all members. That's why Ebenezar was advising in PT that Harry should go to Edinburgh and shake some hands with the other members to reassure them before they voted on him, before everything went pear-shaped.
I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members. The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them. Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted?
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I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members. The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them. Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted?
The SK vote had to be forced to be a senior council vote by Eb to save Harry's bacon. As for the PT vote, Carlos did get a vote, he tells Harry that he voted to keep Harry in the White Council as they head into one of the meetings.
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The SK vote had to be forced to be a senior council vote by Eb to save Harry's bacon. As for the PT vote, Carlos did get a vote, he tells Harry that he voted to keep Harry in the White Council as they head into one of the meetings.
That is my point, it is the Senior Council that votes. In Battle Ground Harry doesn't go to any meetings.
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That is my point, it is the Senior Council that votes. In Battle Ground Harry doesn't go to any meetings.
Because he was at Chicago, but that doesn't change that there was a meeting for Battle Ground. Harry got smashed in the general vote and then in the senior council vote.
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Because he was at Chicago, but that doesn't change that there was a meeting for Battle Ground. Harry got smashed in the general vote and then in the senior council vote.
But Harry didn't go to it, the meeting happened right after, Eb and LTW were still in surgery.. I don't think on this type of thing there is a general vote, if there were, there would have been back in Summer Knight.
Here is the the quote from Battle Ground page 372
"The Senior Council voted in emergency session, while Listens-to-Winds and McCoy were in surgery."
Carlos mentions "witnesses" that Harry killed human servants of the Fomor.. Harry argues back that Carlos knows perfectly well that they are not exactly human..
Carlos answers;
"Doesn't matter what I think," Ramirez said. "You know how broadly they interpret the First Law."
It didn't matter what Carlos thought because he doesn't get a vote in the matter.. It is about how "they" meaning the Senior Council interprets the law, and the vote was unanimous, that is, with at least three members not present. You might call it pay back from Langtry as well, with his "proxy" votes he attempted to convict Molly as well, except Harry stopped him.. In the case Carlos either wouldn't or couldn't, and had started down the road before when he put the tracker on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.
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While Harry waking up one day to find out that he's the Faerie Queen of Pizza would be great for a laugh, I think the Series is going down a more serious path then that.
I'd vehemently disagree. Harry has long been set up as the "Burger King" on purpose. Jim's not going to forgo humor. Not with incredible puns like the Black Hat waiting in the winds.
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But Harry didn't go to it, the meeting happened right after, Eb and LTW were still in surgery.. I don't think on this type of thing there is a general vote, if there were, there would have been back in Summer Knight.
Here is the the quote from Battle Ground page 372
Carlos mentions "witnesses" that Harry killed human servants of the Fomor.. Harry argues back that Carlos knows perfectly well that they are not exactly human..
Carlos answers;
It didn't matter what Carlos thought because he doesn't get a vote in the matter.. It is about how "they" meaning the Senior Council interprets the law, and the vote was unanimous, that is, with at least three members not present. You might call it pay back from Langtry as well, with his "proxy" votes he attempted to convict Molly as well, except Harry stopped him.. In the case Carlos either wouldn't or couldn't, and had started down the road before when he put the tracker on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.
There were two separate votes, the first was the public one of whether to kick Harry out or not where Ramirez voted in Harry's favour.
His lips pressed into a line. “Yeah.” He gave his head a little shake, as if dislodging an insect. “I heard about the vote in the Council, man. It’s bullshit. However inconvenient you might be for them, whether any of them like it or not, you’re a wizard, Harry.”
“Yer a wizard, Harry,” I growled.
He didn’t smile, but an amused glint came to his eyes. “Point is, I’ve already cast my vote on your behalf. So have most of the other Wardens.”
I was quiet for a second, with my throat a little tight. “Oh. Thanks.”
“Yeah, well. We’re just the guys who have to do the fighting and the dirty work,” he said bitterly. “All the wizards who sit on their fat asses all day, who knows? To them, you’re scary.”
Then there was the second vote with the senior council about what to do with him afterwards that you quoted.
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I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members. The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them. Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted?
Carlos said on the way into the summit that he'd voted in Harry's favour, though.
I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only, but but there's nothing in Carlos' accounting of how it went to indicate that happened. It would have been poor politics on his part to have an expulsion vote decided only by himself and Ancient Mai.
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Carlos said on the way into the summit that he'd voted in Harry's favour, though.
I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only, but but there's nothing in Carlos' accounting of how it went to indicate that happened. It would have been poor politics on his part to have an expulsion vote decided only by himself and Ancient Mai.
Basically that is what Langtry tried to pull in Proven Guilty, when he wanted Molly convicted, claiming he had proxies for the Senior Members missing, when he never even consulted them on how they wanted to vote. Harry stopped him then, with some help of Rashid, Harry said then that he pissed Langtry off and that he'd make him pay someday... So Carlos said the vote was "unanimous." You really think Langtry got instructions from the three missing members on how they wanted their votes cast?
"The Senior Council voted in emergency session, while Listens-to-Winds and McCoy were in surgery."
Not the whole Council, the Senior Council.. Also Langtry was trying for a death sentence, it is just the Senior Council that apparently votes on that as we saw in Molly's case.
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Carlos could have lied.
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Carlos could have lied.
That's a fair point, especially when he showed up to force Harry onto the Security team and yet never thought to mention how the Merlin is trying to kick him out literally right now.
Like, Carlos shows up to force Harry to stay in the city, and then Eb shows up to try and warn Harry to go to Edinburgh.
Kinda seems like maybe Carlos was working with the Merlin to get Harry kicked.
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That's a fair point, especially when he showed up to force Harry onto the Security team and yet never thought to mention how the Merlin is trying to kick him out literally right now.
And basically sets him up with a tracking device, let's not forget that one. No, Carlos was not on Harry's side from the moment we first meet him in chapter one of Peace Talks.
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Basically that is what Langtry tried to pull in Proven Guilty, when he wanted Molly convicted, claiming he had proxies for the Senior Members missing, when he never even consulted them on how they wanted to vote.
Sure, but it's one thing to make a personal call against a random teenage warlock. Taking advantage like that to expel a member who's still popular with slightly less than half of the rest of the Council is quite another. It's borrowing a lot of political trouble for another day.
Langtry has enough political acumen to have a pretty good idea if he's got the votes among the general membership to kick Harry before the voting even opens. Letting it be decided by the open membership gives him more cover against 40-odd percent of the membership thinking he personally railroaded someone they regard well.
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Sure, but it's one thing to make a personal call against a random teenage warlock. Taking advantage like that to expel a member who's still popular with slightly less than half of the rest of the Council is quite another. It's borrowing a lot of political trouble for another day.
Langtry has enough political acumen to have a pretty good idea if he's got the votes among the general membership to kick Harry before the voting even opens. Letting it be decided by the open membership gives him more cover against 40-odd percent of the membership thinking he personally railroaded someone they regard well.
Yes, that is why the death sentence was changed to banishment, everyone knew very well as did Carlos that the Turtlenecks weren't exactly human. They also know it was a real war being fought, not a time for being picky as far as the First Law goes. I imagine if one looked close enough none of the wizards who were there were completely innocent of that violation. It comes down to Harry being able to command his own army, even if they are pixies, and having control over Demonreach, it scares the holy hell out of them.
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I feel like Langtry being the bad guy is the red herring of the series...
I wouldn't be shocked if Langtry, incognito, shows up on Harry's door and presents a totally different picture from what Carlos told Harry.
I desperately want Langtry to have orchestrated kicking Harry out of the Council so as to have someone outside of the Council to investigate the Black Council.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense or seem too likely; I just really like the idea.
I don't know if these are Jim's personal views or not but Harry definitely has a bit of a libertarian vibe. Not that I am saying that's a bad thing or a good thing, just the read I got from what Harry says about such things from time to time.
That's kind of how Marcone is portrayed too. Basically all the crime we read about Marcone's organization doing is just business between mutually consenting adults. Even his protection racket is mostly portrayed that way in recent books. The people paying protection are protected from the Fomor. (Normally protection rackets are protection from the person the victim is paying).
We know from Proven Guilty that Merlin holds ALL their proxies.
I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only.
That takes three votes (and maybe the presence of a quorum. I don't have the book available to look it up right now). That was the problem Eb introduced in the beginning of PT. Were there three votes after the Battle of Chicago? As Mira points out, Carlos does say that the Senior Council voted. Is there an emergency vote provision we don't know about? Was the vote expelling Harry illegal?
what do you think will cause Harry to take a direct stand again the White Council?
My money is it's going to be Harry calling them on their BS. I'm sure what form their BS is going to take. Something like Molly's hearing in PG. Maybe the Council will have become too corrupt.
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That takes three votes (and maybe the presence of a quorum. I don't have the book available to look it up right now). That was the problem Eb introduced in the beginning of PT. Were there three votes after the Battle of Chicago? As Mira points out, Carlos does say that the Senior Council voted. Is there an emergency vote provision we don't know about? Was the vote expelling Harry illegal?
The way I read the quote that I provided was the Senior Council called an "emergency" meeting after the Battle of Chicago. Who would have the power? The Merlin. With three of the Senior members indisposed, how can that be a fair trial or a legal vote? And can anyone explain in the light of that, that it was "unanimous?" As I said, the Merlin tried to pull that off when Molly was tried, he claimed to have the proxies of the missing members.. But when they came back they didn't exactly vote the way that Langtry claimed in their behalf. So did that happen again? My guess is yes it did. However I think even Langtry realized that a death sentence crossed the line, so they changed it to banishment and loss of wizard status.. Which brings up another question, how do unwizard a fully trained wizard? He might be kicked out of the club, but Harry is still every bit the wizard he was before.
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The way I read the quote that I provided was the Senior Council called an "emergency" meeting after the Battle of Chicago. Who would have the power? The Merlin. With three of the Senior members indisposed, how can that be a fair trial or a legal vote? And can anyone explain in the light of that, that it was "unanimous?" As I said, the Merlin tried to pull that off when Molly was tried, he claimed to have the proxies of the missing members.. But when they came back they didn't exactly vote the way that Langtry claimed in their behalf. So did that happen again? My guess is yes it did. However I think even Langtry realized that a death sentence crossed the line, so they changed it to banishment and loss of wizard status.. Which brings up another question, how do unwizard a fully trained wizard? He might be kicked out of the club, but Harry is still every bit the wizard he was before.
Mab is fine with the current situation because it basically releases Harry of all his obligations to the white council. An official death sentence however is something I do not think she can ignore. I think that is an attack on her household.
And Molly would not ignore it either.
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Mab is fine with the current situation because it basically releases Harry of all his obligations to the white council. An official death sentence however is something I do not think she can ignore. I think that is an attack on her household.
And Molly would not ignore it either.
I don't think Langtry was so worried about Mab as things are getting very complicated and he feels like he is losing control.
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Does giving Dresden the boot really help with that though?
I mean, Harry was already under a suspended death sentence technically (since the doom was never lifted due to Molly not having a 'proper' graduation).
So it kinda seems like the only thing that the White Council get from this is they lose what little bit of influence they have over Harry, in exchange gain... pissing off Eb?
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Does giving Dresden the boot really help with that though?
If you are addressing that question to me, my thought is Langtry feels threatened by Harry. It isn't about power or knowledge, Langtry still has more juice and knowledge of magic than Harry, but Harry is out in the world where as he isn't. Harry has acquired a rep and allies, heck, his own army, small but mighty. When the flying squid things were attacking there were three if I remember correctly Senior Council members present, they couldn't do squat against them. Harry called up Za'Gard and they took care of it. It is called influence, Harry has a ton of it, that scares them.
No, the Doom was never lifted from Molly, technically Harry was dead or thought to be when she was under her death sentence. I think that became moot once she became Winter Lady, and as far as I know she hasn't acted all warlocky since she became Winter Lady.