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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on February 08, 2021, 11:47:32 AM
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Rereading the passage in Battle Ground after Murphy dies and Harry goes after Rudolph, and something stood out to me. Harry's is of course incredibly angry, irrationally angry (by which I mean he is bypassing his normal rational state for his emotional reaction). He talks about the purity of that hate and how it gets disrupted by something he can't quite explain when Sanya arrives to stop him. It's further interrupted when Butters arrives to stop him. When he tries to destroy Rudolph with lightning, Fidelacchius stops it. It's interesting how the sound of Fidelacchius is described during this encounter as an "angry chorus". When Harry attempts to pass through the sword thinking he will be immune (being purely physical and thinking himself not truly bad), he is burned badly and there is a smell of brimstone. The burn not only doesn't heal well, but Winter's mantle cannot numb it. Then afterwards he feels all his pain but also is made rational again, and realises there likely would have been extended consequences for his actions including on those he cares about most.
This book talks a lot about love and hate. About logic being the opposite. The Eye of Balor is a weapon that uses hate to destroy everything it touches. Mab's logic appears to save her from it, if only just. Harry's love of his child stops him from murdering Rudolph, and the love of his friends helps him realise that and try to stop him. Ethniu's hate is what caused her to attack the world. The Chicagoan's love of there city and their families causes them to fight for it. The themes are clear.
Way back in when we first learn about Denarians, we learnt that it's part of the nature of the Coins to be in circulation. A Denarian also tells Dresden "we are corruption, we are a part of you". This is a hint to the nature of angels and fallen, and why they are so interested in the souls of mortals. I suspect the interest is because of the nature of the soul and it's relationship to the fundamental reality. Jim has openly discussed that choices in the Dresden Files create/spin-off universes and this creates a spectrum of universes that the angels and fallen fight over. Perhaps the souls can do this because they are tied to the foundational energy of the universe - love, and by definition, hate. Which means souls contain both creative and destructive power/interest and the angels and fallen wish to tip a soul more one side than another, and therefore have more universes in their favor.
What does this have to do with Battle Ground? Well as discussed above that book is very much about love and hate, amongst other things. These are called two sides of the same coin by Mab, as it were. Love is fundamental and essential in creation and hate is essential in destruction. This is how the Eye of Balor can destroy anything it touches (providing someone hasn't prepared accordingly *Mab*) including a being like Uriel. The Eye is described as having "hate of the original vintage". This is interesting because what I believe Butcher is talking about is not merely hate as a fundamental part of universal power, but perhaps also what Lucifer tapped into. Whether or not it came from Outside is unknown. But I do believe hate is what makes Hellfire so strong, and love is what makes Soulfire so "real".
So I believe that Battle Ground was actually not merely about Ethniu or Outsiders or even the Black Council, per se. I think we got to see another microcosm of the Great Battle, but it wasn't just over Chicago but particularly over someone in it - Harry. I believe that Sanya and Butters didn't merely show up to counter Ethniu and her forces. We have learned that the Knights single most important purpose is to save souls, particularly those influenced by the Fallen. And while I think Ethniu was considered a grave threat, there were longer term moves going on. Drakul's presence hints at that to a point. But I think when Harry was about to kill Rudolph he was heading for the darkest timeline. That Harry would have been far worse for his universe, perhaps multiple universes and this was another pivotal moment in his life. Is it not amazing of all places that the Knights ran after Harry? Or that there was not some other catastrophe they had to prevent? I would say considering the purpose of the Knights of the Cross, it means quite a bit that two of them were there to stop Harry going dark side.
I also wonder if Harry particularly is susceptible to influence of the Fallen, in a way. Obviously anyone trying to manipulate him directly tends to fail as Harry is fairly obstinate. But depending on what Starborns have to do with Lucifer (and we know of two connections: 666 years and that Jim mentioned it specifically recently), perhaps that same power that allows him to resist Outsiders is also a double edged Sword. Jim often says being a Starborn is really unlucky. People often regard Harry as a monster if they know that he is Starborn. My guess is that Harry is somehow more connected to those fundamental forces, even more so than a normal Wizard, and therefore when he goes dark side it's really, mega bad. Maybe that's why he was burned by Fidelachius. Maybe that's why the hate felt so pure, and why it annoyed him so strangely that he was disturbed from his attempted murder. Perhaps, as others have guessed it's why Drakul is so different from other Starborn (so far). It should also mean Harry is just as susceptible to the good things (read: love) though I would think, but I don't feel the evidence is just as strong.
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I don't disagree, hate is the sister to hate as they say. Or using Star Wars version, love, hate, emotion is the quickest way to slide down the road to the dark side.
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I also wonder if Harry particularly is susceptible to influence of the Fallen, in a way.
I think you're on to something. On first impression, I agree with everything except the quoted line. I think it's more that he's more of a target for manipulation and influence than most, so he gets (and therefore has to resist or fall for) more than most.
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I don't disagree, hate is the sister to hate as they say. Or using Star Wars version, love, hate, emotion is the quickest way to slide down the road to the dark side.
Interesting then that emotions are intrinsically tied to magic. Even Mab isn't just pure logic...we've seen she just buries her emotions deep down. Curious also that Mab is all cold logic but Mother Winter seems fairly emotional...I wonder if that has something to do with who she is under her mantle. Also, anyone else notice how Mab used the collective determiner "our" and the pronoun "we" after being injured and stating that "we" referring to herself (but not "I") is in Butter's debt. She also says "our Name". Further evidence of the gestalt being...
I think you're on to something. On first impression, I agree with everything except the quoted line. I think it's more that he's more of a target for manipulation and influence than most, so he gets (and therefore has to resist or fall for) more than most.
That's probably true. Harry gets more offers than most. But he also seems to be a greater prize than most too. From book 1 (and even in flashbacks of his earlier life) Harry has always been involved with dark forces, and he himself has always wondered about his innate darkness. My theory is that he has more innate darkness than a regular mortal and therefore is fighting more temptation than most as well - but it also means he has a higher tolerance for resisting darkness. In some ways he is more like Thomas than he realises. Thomas has a big obvious demon inside him that he is constantly fighting...but Harry's just might be more subtle, perhaps buried deeper. I don't think it's an entity either. More like a part of who he is, like constant exposure to dark magic.
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Also, anyone else notice how Mab used the collective determiner "our" and the pronoun "we" after being injured and stating that "we" referring to herself (but not "I") is in Butter's debt. She also says "our Name".
Hasn't this happened before when she was being formal? I think I remember a debate about whether or not Mab was using the "royal we" at some point.
I don't think Harry's any/much darker than your average person. He's probably a lot less so. A lot of people I know would be pretty far down the left hand path given the opportunities and challenges Harry's had. Even if they didn't give in to the temptation to violate any of the Laws of Magic.
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The book is fairly succinct about how Harry was manipulated. He was isolated from the day he was born. Traveling with his father and never having anything stable in his life but his father up to the moment when Malcolm dies. Then hustled off to an orphanage with all that implies. Adopted by a man who first abuses and then rewards him, all while raised with a young women of his age to capture his emotions to Justin's purposes. And it didn't get a lot better after he broke free.
Just for fun there are 42 instances of the word rage in Battle Ground.
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Interesting then that emotions are intrinsically tied to magic. Even Mab isn't just pure logic...we've seen she just buries her emotions deep down. Curious also that Mab is all cold logic but Mother Winter seems fairly emotional...I wonder if that has something to do with who she is under her mantle. Also, anyone else notice how Mab used the collective determiner "our" and the pronoun "we" after being injured and stating that "we" referring to herself (but not "I") is in Butter's debt. She also says "our Name". Further evidence of the gestalt being...
Mab can also be very emotional, let's not forget her reaction in the chapel in Small Favor when she realized her daughter was infested with Nemeses. Usually she does keep it under tight control, she truly has a heart of ice, she is the Winter Queen version of Mr Spock. Her emotions are buried in logic, but you will remember that most Vulcans never totally succeed in purging all emotion from their beings. While all her logic helped her to fight Ethniu, like Vulcans, it also makes her just a wee bit vulnerable. Harry discovered that weakness, and Kringle promptly warned him to keep it to himself.
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This just occured to me because of your post.... Harry has access to Soulfire because of the scales being balanced. However for there to be balance that means he must also have access to hellfire.... Belief is everything in the Dresdenfiles. He believed he didn't have that power because he gave up the Coin. Perhaps that's not the case. Maybe by focusing his hate he can still use hellfire.
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Mother Winter seems fairly emotional.
Didn't she criticize Mab in CD for being too emotional? Honestly, they both seem just about equally emotional to me. It's just that they're emotional range seems pretty limited. They're good at all the emotions that make small children difficult to be around and not so much the emotions that make small children a joy to be around.
This just occured to me because of your post.... Harry has access to Soulfire because of the scales being balanced. However for there to be balance that means he must also have access to hellfire.... Belief is everything in the Dresdenfiles. He believed he didn't have that power because he gave up the Coin. Perhaps that's not the case. Maybe by focusing his hate he can still use hellfire.
Hellfire and Soulfire are supposedly the same thing used differently, according to Bob.
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Hellfire and Soulfire are supposedly the same thing used differently, according to Bob
Where does he say that exactly? I'm not disputing, I just don't remember when he says it or the quote. They don't seem to be the same to me, Soulfire, according to Bob is the framework upon what angels create stuff. Hellfire does the opposite, so why they might balance each other, they are not the same.
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Where does he say that exactly? I'm not disputing, I just don't remember when he says it or the quote. They don't seem to be the same to me, Soulfire, according to Bob is the framework upon what angels create stuff. Hellfire does the opposite, so why they might balance each other, they are not the same.
I think he's referring to this:
“Wow,” Bob said. “Soulfire. Are you sure he said soulfire?”
“Yeah,” I said wearily. “Why?”
“Well,” the skull said. “Soulfire is…well. It’s Hellfire, essentially. Only from the other place.”
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”
Butcher, Jim. Small Favor (The Dresden Files, Book 10) (p. 417). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Hasn't this happened before when she was being formal? I think I remember a debate about whether or not Mab was using the "royal we" at some point.
I don't think Harry's any/much darker than your average person. He's probably a lot less so. A lot of people I know would be pretty far down the left hand path given the opportunities and challenges Harry's had. Even if they didn't give in to the temptation to violate any of the Laws of Magic.
I don't remember previous incidents...but considering she is one part of a triple-being (possibly sextuple-being (?)) I would take it as a hint. And consider Mother Summer to Harry when discussing Mother Winter's names - "She has been known by those names in the past. But you have only guessed at one part of her identity - not our most powerful Name" and Harry specifically reacts to the word "our".
I more meant that Harry's continued exposure to darkness is making him more resistant to influence and temptation than he otherwise might have been, as he possibly has inner darkness (to do with his star born and/or Destroyer nature). I agree though that Harry has made pretty good choices considering his circumstances. I guess that's why the "good" guys keep helping him.
Didn't she criticize Mab in CD for being too emotional? Honestly, they both seem just about equally emotional to me. It's just that they're emotional range seems pretty limited. They're good at all the emotions that make small children difficult to be around and not so much the emotions that make small children a joy to be around.
Yes she did, but her actions are rather more volatile than Mab's. Never saw Mab throw a meat cleaver at someone for being rude. Totally true though. Toddlers are their own breed at times.
The book is fairly succinct about how Harry was manipulated. He was isolated from the day he was born. Traveling with his father and never having anything stable in his life but his father up to the moment when Malcolm dies. Then hustled off to an orphanage with all that implies. Adopted by a man who first abuses and then rewards him, all while raised with a young women of his age to capture his emotions to Justin's purposes. And it didn't get a lot better after he broke free.
Just for fun there are 42 instances of the word rage in Battle Ground.
Does anyone else think that Justin's abuse went beyond the merely violent? Obviously it was psychological too, but something Jim said about how Twelve Months is about Harry dealing with a lot of repressed trauma...but yeah Harry had a bad hand regardless.
Also - I think you might have just proven my point. Rage is cosmically fundamental.
Mab can also be very emotional, let's not forget her reaction in the chapel in Small Favor when she realized her daughter was infested with Nemeses. Usually she does keep it under tight control, she truly has a heart of ice, she is the Winter Queen version of Mr Spock. Her emotions are buried in logic, but you will remember that most Vulcans never totally succeed in purging all emotion from their beings. While all her logic helped her to fight Ethniu, like Vulcans, it also makes her just a wee bit vulnerable. Harry discovered that weakness, and Kringle promptly warned him to keep it to himself.
She can but as others have pointed out...that's often when she is less Mab and more the mortal underneath. Case in point - when Korb gets under her skin about Merlin. I guess I have just noticed that Mother Winter often lashes out compared to Mab's calmer more detached demeanour.
This just occured to me because of your post.... Harry has access to Soulfire because of the scales being balanced. However for there to be balance that means he must also have access to hellfire.... Belief is everything in the Dresdenfiles. He believed he didn't have that power because he gave up the Coin. Perhaps that's not the case. Maybe by focusing his hate he can still use hellfire.
Depending on the intrinsic properties of Hellfire, that's quite possible. All depends on the source. But it wouldn't surprise me if Dresden could do it again. I don't recall if Dresden ever use Hellfire on a Denarian but I wondered if it would have garnered as strong as reaction from them (and other similarly divine beings) as Soulfire? I mean, they almost take it personally that he uses it. We haven't seen Dresden try and use Hellfire while hateful or trying cause horror and harm (attacks on Outsiders don't count I think). I wonder what would happen if he did? Would he convert it himself?
Where does he say that exactly? I'm not disputing, I just don't remember when he says it or the quote. They don't seem to be the same to me, Soulfire, according to Bob is the framework upon what angels create stuff. Hellfire does the opposite, so why they might balance each other, they are not the same.
I get what you're saying but Bob also says that Soulfire is how Angels do all their "stuff". I don't see how Fallen could operate if they were too different. Jim sort of answered this in a Q&A once, he said that Angels have access to Soulfire and Hellfire but which one they use sort-of determines what kind of Angel they are (Fallen or just normal Angel).
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I think he's referring to this:
Yeah.
I also remember something about "two sides of the same coin" and that the hellfire/soulfire distinction is more about the user than the source. Like Fallen use hellfire because the Fallen are evil and the angels use soulfire because they're good. If one used the other, it would be because they are no longer what they were. As Yuillegan points out, this was from Jim instead of Bob, so I was wrong about my source on that part.
My best guess is that both hellfire and soulfire are both powered by souls. It's mostly about intent of the user as to whether hellfire or soulfire comes out.
I don't recall if Dresden ever use Hellfire on a Denarian but I wondered if it would have garnered as strong as reaction from them (and other similarly divine beings) as Soulfire? I mean, they almost take it personally that he uses it. We haven't seen Dresden try and use Hellfire while hateful or trying cause horror and harm (attacks on Outsiders don't count I think). I wonder what would happen if he did? Would he convert it himself?
I think all this is evidence of my guess. For example, they way Namshiel reacts to Dresden's use of soulfire seemed to me as if Namshiel still used soulfire. His statements about it were present, not past, tense.
[1]I more meant that Harry's continued exposure to darkness is making him more resistant to influence and temptation than he otherwise might have been, as he possibly has inner darkness.
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[2]Yes she did, but her actions are rather more volatile than Mab's. Never saw Mab throw a meat cleaver at someone for being rude.
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[3]Does anyone else think that Justin's abuse went beyond the merely violent? Obviously it was psychological too, but something Jim said about how Twelve Months is about Harry dealing with a lot of repressed trauma...but yeah Harry had a bad hand regardless.
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[4]I get what you're saying but Bob also says that Soulfire is how Angels do all their "stuff". I don't see how Fallen could operate if they were too different. Jim sort of answered this in a Q&A once, he said that Angels have access to Soulfire and Hellfire but which one they use sort-of determines what kind of Angel they are (Fallen or just normal Angel).
1) We know Harry is being prepared for what comes, so maybe the powers that be are working to expose/not protect/protect just enough Harry to/from temptation to build him up to where he needs to be?
2) Well, not a cleaver specifically, but she's certainly given Harry an attitude adjustment or two ... or a lot more. https://genius.com/Hank-williams-jr-attitude-adjustment-lyrics
3) I don't think Justin abused Harry sexually if that's what you're getting at. I do think Harry was abused sexually by the Red Court Vampires in GP.
4) The way angels work in traditional Christian theology, angels can't make choices in the same way as humans because they exist outside of time. Harry is a human who exists inside of time, so he could go back and forth from hellfire to soulfire if it's just about choice.
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My best guess is that both hellfire and soulfire are both powered by souls. It's mostly about intent of the user as to whether hellfire or soulfire comes out.
Agreed. But I think there is something about the level of intention too. The regular magic that Dresden uses is less "real" than naturally occurring forces i.e. spell fire is not as real (in some very important ways) as fire that is created through the natural mechanics of the universe. Soulfire seems to use up the soul in order to do it's thing, but souls regenerate too. It's unclear if Hellfire also uses the soul...if it does it certainly doesn't use it in the same way. I wonder if the act of using Soulfire or Hellfire, because it draws upon the soul more than regular magic, changes a being in far more serious ways than regular magic. Or is it the use of the soul against the purpose of it's creation that changes the being?
I think all this is evidence of my guess. For example, they way Namshiel reacts to Dresden's use of soulfire seemed to me as if Namshiel still used soulfire. His statements about it were present, not past, tense.
Indeed. He seemed very pissed off about it. But so did the Naaglooshii (a great evil, worse than most denarians yet probably not worse than an unrestricted Fallen), certainly there is some relationship between the Skinwalker and the Angels. Indeed, he seemed to be suggesting he used it still (and therefore it was almost blasphemous for Dresden to use it).
1) We know Harry is being prepared for what comes, so maybe the powers that be are working to expose/not protect/protect just enough Harry to/from temptation to build him up to where he needs to be?
That whole bit with the Mothers arguing over whether Harry was ready comes to mind - "He isn't your weapon" "It's not your world". I don't think they were merely discussing the whether Harry was ready for the Outer Gates. I wonder if Dresden is ready yet?
2) Well, not a cleaver specifically, but she's certainly given Harry an attitude adjustment or two ... or a lot more. https://genius.com/Hank-williams-jr-attitude-adjustment-lyrics
Lol. But never something too lethal. I think Mother Winter would have killed Harry if he couldn't stop her, she wouldn't have thought he was worth being her Knight otherwise.
3) I don't think Justin abused Harry sexually if that's what you're getting at. I do think Harry was abused sexually by the Red Court Vampires in GP.
I was getting at that. Yeah, the Red Court bit in Grave Peril has been discussed before. Definitely part of it. Maybe Justin didn't sexually abuse him, but Justin wasn't the only foster "family" that he lived with. I don't know. I feel like that might be something Jim will reveal in the next book. But maybe it's more to do with all the eldritch horror he encounters regularly.
4) The way angels work in traditional Christian theology, angels can't make choices in the same way as humans because they exist outside of time. Harry is a human who exists inside of time, so he could go back and forth from hellfire to soulfire if it's just about choice.
That would certainly be interesting. I don't think Angels fully exist outside of time, at least in the Dresden Files. They seem to be surprised often enough. A full third also made a Choice, maybe the only real one they ever made, which was to Fall. Which might suggest that all other Angels never have actually made a choice at all. Then again, Ethniu calls *someone* (an angel using Butters as a sock puppet most likely) a "lapdog, coward, and a traitor". This suggests they at least made one choice, the choice to "betray" the other God entities like Ethniu.
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I was getting at that. Yeah, the Red Court bit in Grave Peril has been discussed before. Definitely part of it. Maybe Justin didn't sexually abuse him, but Justin wasn't the only foster "family" that he lived with. I don't know. I feel like that might be something Jim will reveal in the next book. But maybe it's more to do with all the eldritch horror he encounters regularly.
Harry did make some statement about how Justin was better than some of the families he had been with before. It was from his perspective as a child in a memory in GS. I don't remember when, but Harry's monologued in pretty vague ways about harsh treatment at the hands of other kids in the system.
That would certainly be interesting. I don't think Angels fully exist outside of time, at least in the Dresden Files.
Yeah. But I do think Jim's kept the idea that the Fallen can't seek redemption.
A full third also made a Choice, maybe the only real one they ever made, which was to Fall. Which might suggest that all other Angels never have actually made a choice at all.
Or they made the choice to not rebel.
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Harry did make some statement about how Justin was better than some of the families he had been with before. It was from his perspective as a child in a memory in GS. I don't remember when, but Harry's monologued in pretty vague ways about harsh treatment at the hands of other kids in the system.
Indeed. I seem to remember about how Justin never yelled or carried on with the violence. It was just sharp and brutal, but then it was over. He never yelled when he did it. Almost like Harry is rationalizing it. None of which implies sexual abuse of course...but the rate of it in foster homes is terrible, so odds are (especially in the 80s) that something occurred.
Yeah. But I do think Jim's kept the idea that the Fallen can't seek redemption.
Indeed, and that's interesting. Something to do with how by falling they have permanently changed themselves. Almost into a negative version. I think it was in a recent WOJ how that their grace or something converts into a negative. It makes your argument stronger in some ways, because perhaps they cannot change because they never did (being mostly outside time). But that raises questions. Why are the Fallen given no option at all the redeem themselves? It's a central tenet of many religions. What does that say about the nature of TWG or the universe? Or is it more the fact that they are no longer really the being they were before and so cannot be redeemed. They are something else.
Or they made the choice to not rebel.
Certainly that's a possibility. Uriel seems to suggest that the choice is still somewhat an option for him...the the consequences of course could be catastrophic. Nicodemus seemed to believe Uriel could still choose to smite him, to judge him. I wonder if the choice to rebel or not rebel was the Angels first real choice? Then again...perhaps if they chose to betray (somehow) the other Gods and that seems like it would have been before that...but who knows?
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That would certainly be interesting. I don't think Angels fully exist outside of time, at least in the Dresden Files. They seem to be surprised often enough. A full third also made a Choice, maybe the only real one they ever made, which was to Fall. Which might suggest that all other Angels never have actually made a choice at all. Then again, Ethniu calls *someone* (an angel using Butters as a sock puppet most likely) a "lapdog, coward, and a traitor". This suggests they at least made one choice, the choice to "betray" the other God entities like Ethniu.
What if the Angels exist outside of time but can't see past the fork in the universe where a "Choice" is made? Angels can see the potential outcomes of a Choice and maybe influence the Choice to be made but what will actually happen remains uncertain to them. Basically the angelic version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle on a Universal scale. Plus it explains why they need mortal hosts to make a difference. They need a soul to make a choice. Also the angel in the Sword said "Ethniu, I only offer Vision, that you may avoid suffering" so I may be on to something.
Also Ethniu called Thorned Namshiel a "greasy little snake" plus called the angel in the Sword "you lapdog, you traitor, you coward" so she (and I'm assuming) the other Titans know the various Angels by name if not by deed and probably aren't too fond of them given those reactions. Given the way Dresden describes the God-Fight in BG as occurring in multiple timelines simultaneously maybe the Titans and Gods have Choice while the Angels get Dominion? One can interfere and the other can contain but neither is truly superior to the other?
This theory also works if we take Mab's comments about Logic being the opposite of Love/Hate. The universe is built on Logic (i.e. math and physics) but only runs with emotions as the fuel.
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Something to do with how by falling they have permanently changed themselves. Almost into a negative version. I think it was in a recent WOJ how that their grace or something converts into a negative. It makes your argument stronger in some ways, because perhaps they cannot change because they never did (being mostly outside time). But that raises questions. Why are the Fallen given no option at all the redeem themselves? It's a central tenet of many religions. What does that say about the nature of TWG or the universe? Or is it more the fact that they are no longer really the being they were before and so cannot be redeemed. They are something else.
I don't know why it would be that way other than the real world explanation I heard of them existing outside of time or TWG being unwilling or unable to forgive. I've always found fallen angel type characters that can't be redeemed sad.
Uriel seems to suggest that the choice is still somewhat an option for him...the the consequences of course could be catastrophic.
Or it's Michael's choice that would cause Uriel to fall, not Uriel's?
Nicodemus seemed to believe Uriel could still choose to smite him, to judge him.
Or Nicodemus was just taunting Uriel, believing (incorrectly) that Uriel could do nothing, but it turned out Uriel was stalling to give Butters time to get the sword?
Then again...perhaps if they chose to betray (somehow) the other Gods and that seems like it would have been before that...but who knows?
Or that choice happened at the same "time?"
I ended those sentences with question marks because, with the information we have, it's pretty close to a coin toss for me.
What if the Angels exist outside of time but can't see past the fork in the universe where a "Choice" is made?
I'm not sure how that would work, but I'm not sure how anything "outside of time" would work.