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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on January 22, 2021, 12:07:35 AM
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This is an interesting plot twist that can go so many ways
Pluses
1) Dresden and Lara have a great deal of respect for each other.
2) They are also clearly attracted to each other in a way that has nothing to do with magic or inner demon beings
3) This ties Lara even more tightly to Mab -- a very strong political alliance for Mab. After all, the White Court has a great deal of power in the mortal world - where Mab is fairly weak (relatively speaking).
4) It demonstrates Mabs power over Dresden in a very public way right after he was just super scary
5) It provides another layer of protection for Dresden vis-a-vis the white council. I am sure there are other allies of the White court that would not hesitate to target Dresden before but would hesitate after a marriage.
6) Does this give Dresden access to white court resources? Aka - cash and favors?
Negatives
1) Lara feeds on souls -- so hard to see how they can have a marriage without that being a pretty strong barrier
2) Dresden is going to resent the hell out of a political marriage and that will create a lot of issues. And if it becomes a real marriage then either Mab loses a lot of control over Harry to Lara (aka - she feeds on him scenario) or it turns to love and this becomes very damaging to Lara.
3) A lot of worry that Lara is infected by outsiders based on odd behavior. That could have been Justine distorting things-- or it could be a real sign that Justine infected Lara (or visa-versa as her father was probably associated with outsiders as well.
4) A distraction for Dresden. Normally that would be a good thing for Mab, but things are very ugly right now and having her winter knight be off his game would be dangerous.
5) A political marriage involves obligations on both sides. What would Mab promise Lara to make this happen? Or does Lara already owe Mab too much to say no.
6) Kids - enough said
7) Lara is the responsible type -- and a soul eating vampire. Relations with Maggie will be complicated..... of course, this might explain why Maggie goes to boarding school....
8.) Dresden will have obligations to Lara that might conflict with his obligations to Mab. And Mab cannot just override such obligations as winter law applies.
9) Lara's family are mostly a bunch of monsters. Her extended family/court even more so. That cannot end well when Dresden walks into the room. And they are unlikely to take a few random deaths as well as the winter court did.
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Plus, at some point Thomas leaves the island. Certainly he will have been changed by the experience. He might even become a KotC. Imagine what that would look like to other members of the White Court. To the monsters it would look like Dresden did something to change Thomas, to alter his normal; to them, demonic side and make him into something they can't comprehend. And it won't matter a bit that Harry didn't actually do anything to Thomas, other than save his life. It would sure look like Harry did something. None of this would be good for Lara. To other members of the White Court it would look like a mortal; a powerful wizard true, but still a mortal human, is the more powerful individual in a relationship with a White Court vampire. This is virtually unthinkable for any member of the White Court and would make Lara look weak.
This doesn't mean Lara couldn't recover from a situation of this type. Maybe this would be when she demonstrates that she learned her father's kiss of death technique. However, it would certainly complicate the situation.
I know there are other readers who think that when Thomas returns from the island he may become the next King of the White Court. I'm not sure how this would happen. The only thing I'm certain of is that when Thomas returns there will be unexpected and serious repercussions.
And here's a completely different issue which could complicate Harry and Lara's relationship. In Peace Talks, Lara confirmed that her father is starving to death. We don't know when it will happen but when it does the masquerade that Lara has been playing; that her father is still in charge and she is acting as his deputy, will be over. Someone in the White Court is bound to make a move against her. It might involve making a move against Harry first.
So lots of fun possibilities to make things complicated, make that more complicated, than they already are.
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Minor point, the White Court don't eat souls. They eat emotional energy.
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Plus, at some point Thomas leaves the island. Certainly he will have been changed by the experience. He might even become a KotC.
I can totally see Jim creating a creature deathly allergic to love, take up the sword of love. It just seems like the thing Butcher would want to do, or have it planned out. Sword of Faith, wielded by a Jewish Knight of the Cross, the Sword of Hope, wielded by an Atheist Knight of the Cross, and finally the Sword of Love being wielded by a White Court Knight of the Cross; He does this, despite the risk of death to himself, all in the name of the love he has for Justine? Especially now that she has been taken by Nemesis. We already know that a vampire of the Red Court (Ok, yes, half-turned), when focused on what she truly loves, can take up the sword and wield it, in the name of love. I can totally see Thomas doing the same for Justine, or using the sword to help keep his inner demon in check. Not to mention the fact that he is technically related to "Royalty". His father WAS the White King, and I am sure he comes from a long line of WC Royalty (although that last bit I have no source reference on). With the swords being wielded by the descendants of Royalty, and do to the current circumstances of him fighting his demon so he can Love again, I think he is a shoe in.
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Thomas was able to feed by "sipping" on the sensual pleasure of women getting their hair done. Lara could probably do something similar, if Harry insists on it.
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Thomas was able to feed by "sipping" on the sensual pleasure of women getting their hair done. Lara could probably do something similar, if Harry insists on it.
Except the act of doing so was such agony to Thomas that he couldn't even maintain the strength to fight. It wasn't until he was forced to give in to the Hunger by a Naagloshii that he finally regained his strength. Lara would NEVER compromise her own strength in that manner, even for the benefits of a political marriage to the Winter Court.
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Except the act of doing so was such agony to Thomas that he couldn't even maintain the strength to fight. It wasn't until he was forced to give in to the Hunger by a Naagloshii that he finally regained his strength. Lara would NEVER compromise her own strength in that manner, even for the benefits of a political marriage to the Winter Court.
Huh? Thomas was still very much functional in fights in White Night. And while he was obviously hungry in Small Favor, he was still able to kick Denarian and Mob asses as needed. IIRC he described it as 'it adds up'.
As for Lara, she most definitely wouldn't be *only* feeding from her political husband, if it comes to that. The bigger issue is that Harry is currently radioactive to her, and an order to go have a one-night stand with a random mortal to deliberately remove the protection of having been with Murphy is the kind of thing he'd balk at.
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Huh? Thomas was still very much functional in fights in White Night. And while he was obviously hungry in Small Favor, he was still able to kick Denarian and Mob asses as needed. IIRC he described it as 'it adds up'.
Side Stories, there's one from Thomas's perspective where he describes the constant agonizing effort of making sure his Hunger only sips from the life force of his customers at the salon instead of devouring them whole.
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Minor point, the White Court don't eat souls. They eat emotional energy.
I thought they fed off life energy via emotions.
You know Thomas and other White Court have fed off non humans who have more life force, that doesn't harm them. I wonder if something about the Winter Mantle will provide Lara with the energy when she's feeding so Harry can have all kinds of fun sex with her without being damaged.
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I do not think Lara will feed of Harry winter mantle or not. There might even be a no feeding clause in the marriage contract. Mab wants to secure an alliance, not provide catering. Mab spoke against it at the beginning of peace talks as well.
Everyone with half a brain puts a clause against that in the contract just like Vadderung did with Freydis.
Lara is always very well fed and she won't compromise that.
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I thought they fed off life energy via emotions.
You know Thomas and other White Court have fed off non humans who have more life force, that doesn't harm them. I wonder if something about the Winter Mantle will provide Lara with the energy when she's feeding so Harry can have all kinds of fun sex with her without being damaged.
It's a little unclear what the difference is between emotional energy, life energy, and energy. Jim's been pretty clear it that the White Court don't eat their victims souls though.
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Will be interesting to see what a sword like Butter's can do to a white court vampire. Can it kill just the demon? Same question with Justine - could it just kill/drive out Nemesis?
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I can totally see Jim creating a creature deathly allergic to love, take up the sword of love. It just seems like the thing Butcher would want to do, or have it planned out. Sword of Faith, wielded by a Jewish Knight of the Cross, the Sword of Hope, wielded by an Atheist Knight of the Cross, and finally the Sword of Love being wielded by a White Court Knight of the Cross; He does this, despite the risk of death to himself, all in the name of the love he has for Justine? Especially now that she has been taken by Nemesis. We already know that a vampire of the Red Court (Ok, yes, half-turned), when focused on what she truly loves, can take up the sword and wield it, in the name of love. I can totally see Thomas doing the same for Justine, or using the sword to help keep his inner demon in check. Not to mention the fact that he is technically related to "Royalty". His father WAS the White King, and I am sure he comes from a long line of WC Royalty (although that last bit I have no source reference on). With the swords being wielded by the descendants of Royalty, and do to the current circumstances of him fighting his demon so he can Love again, I think he is a shoe in.
Thanks for this! I've just logged back into these forums YEARS later--having finally read PT and BG, and I keep thinking that Thomas is going to end up with Amoracchius at some point. He knows Love like no other White Court vamp because of his love for both Harry and Justine (and presumably Maggie). Maybe Uriel calling him to Amoracchius would even help Ebenezar let go of his hate.
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Can Lara even feed on Harry? In PT, he burned Lara, showing everyone that he was in love with Murphy. If Harry doesn't do anything with another woman (which is likely), he will forever be protected. On the other hand, it might be in Harry's best interest to allow Lara to feed off the Winter Knight's mantle. We know that the mantle makes it harder for him to think at times because it increases his libido. Allowing Lara to feed on the energy might make it easier for Harry to think clearly and become a better wizard and detective.
No matter what, this marriage will make Harry look that much worse to outsiders (especially the white council). Although, he could use this as an opportunity to spy on some opposing faction, aka, pretend to be under Lara's control to infiltrate and gain information on his enemies.
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Can Lara even feed on Harry? In PT, he burned Lara, showing everyone that he was in love with Murphy. If Harry doesn't do anything with another woman (which is likely), he will forever be protected. On the other hand, it might be in Harry's best interest to allow Lara to feed off the Winter Knight's mantle. We know that the mantle makes it harder for him to think at times because it increases his libido. Allowing Lara to feed on the energy might make it easier for Harry to think clearly and become a better wizard and detective.
No matter what, this marriage will make Harry look that much worse to outsiders (especially the white council). Although, he could use this as an opportunity to spy on some opposing faction, aka, pretend to be under Lara's control to infiltrate and gain information on his enemies.
Politically Lara feeding on Harry is not the right message for Mab.
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It's a little unclear what the difference is between emotional energy, life energy, and energy. Jim's been pretty clear it that the White Court don't eat their victims souls though.
In the DF vampires are like bad French wine connoisseurs who buy wines based on things that don't exist.
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In the DF vampires are like bad French wine connoisseurs who buy wines based on things that don't exist.
In the end though most end up either converted or dead, and in the case of the Black Court, both dead and converted.. Some exceptions in the case of the White Court, but then again vanilla mortals are seen as prey...
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In the DF vampires are like bad French wine connoisseurs who buy wines based on things that don't exist.
Sorry, what does this mean?
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They tested wine drinkers who spend a lot of time talking about minute differences in the taste, turns out that most can't distinguish those differences. I don't think that Jim can give you a coherent picture of what the Whites and the Jades feed on much less the variations among the Whites. The closer you look the less there is to see.
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I don't think that Jim can give you a coherent picture of what the Whites and the Jades feed on much less the variations among the Whites. The closer you look the less there is to see.
I disagree. I believe the vampires all feed on the same thing, Mana (Life force, spirit energy). They just take different avenues to gain access to it.
I also suspect the way in which they steal life force has benefits, and consequences. The Black Court uses the most brute force of all the Courts. They eat their victims, and kill them in a single feeding. Red Court is next in line by drinking the blood of their victims. The White Court is least invasive by going through emotions. This is why the Whites are most mortal, the way in which they feed is least invasive. I would guess that the Jade Court falls somewhere between the Reds, and Whites.
Oh and this Mana I believe vamps feed on is also what wizards tap into for their spells. It's why using their full power results in death. And in many video games mana is what spell casters use to fuel their spells, so Jim being a gamer may have used it as inspiration.
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I wonder if the demon in Thomas can be removed by Demonreach. Or, as others have said, killed by Butter's sword. But, the downside of both is that they would make Thomas into a normal human. Seems like it'd probably kill him; the demon is probably just too intertwined with his being.
I love the idea of Thomas picking up the Sword of Love and somehow using it and maybe the sword dampening the demon.
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I wonder if the demon in Thomas can be removed by Demonreach. Or, as others have said, killed by Butter's sword. But, the downside of both is that they would make Thomas into a normal human. Seems like it'd probably kill him; the demon is probably just too intertwined with his being.
I love the idea of Thomas picking up the Sword of Love and somehow using it and maybe the sword dampening the demon.
Thomas being born on Valentines day.... I mean I can't help but feeling like the Sword of Love is meant for him to wield.
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I just don't feel it is Thomas's destiny to pick up a sword.
Looking at the character types in the story and comparing them to D&D, it doesn't fit for Thomas. He is more of a berserker/warrior, someone who is well versatile in multiple weapons and can go into a super strong frenzy mode.
If we look at other characters, they all have their roles too. Obviously Harry is the wizard. Murphy was the ranger. Sanya was a dark knight that found his true calling and became a palladian. Mort is a summoner. Each have their D&D character equivalent that they have been following pretty closely.
The reason I don't believe Thomas can be the next knight is that he only knows how to be a fighter due to his demon. He loses that and he will be worthless, even with the sword. He has relied too heavily on the demon to be anything else; except maybe the new Winter Knight.
Except for my feeling that Molly will be removed as the WL and become the next sword bearer, due to the Sword in the Stone movie storyline, I don't think we have seen the new palladian yet. Nobody really has the characteristics of a knight or palladian.
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I just don't feel it is Thomas's destiny to pick up a sword.
Looking at the character types in the story and comparing them to D&D, it doesn't fit for Thomas. He is more of a berserker/warrior, someone who is well versatile in multiple weapons and can go into a super strong frenzy mode.
If we look at other characters, they all have their roles too. Obviously Harry is the wizard. Murphy was the ranger. Sanya was a dark knight that found his true calling and became a palladian. Mort is a summoner. Each have their D&D character equivalent that they have been following pretty closely.
The reason I don't believe Thomas can be the next knight is that he only knows how to be a fighter due to his demon. He loses that and he will be worthless, even with the sword. He has relied too heavily on the demon to be anything else; except maybe the new Winter Knight.
Except for my feeling that Molly will be removed as the WL and become the next sword bearer, due to the Sword in the Stone movie storyline, I don't think we have seen the new palladian yet. Nobody really has the characteristics of a knight or palladian.
The hunger doesn't really come with free swordfighting lessons, Thomas had to practice at least a bit for his skill. And Butters didn't have the full paladin setup before Skin Game either.
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I will admit, Butter's is sort of a wild card on that. The only thing that I have figured is that he was a healer, so that put him in the realm of possibility to become a palladian.
And isn't Harry constantly saying that Thomas doesn't work out or practice?
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Thomas and the rest of the White Court don't have to work out to be in shape. They pick up their fighting skills just like anyone else. Their Demon just gives them strength, speed, super senses and regeneration just like Wolverine. And like Wolverine, opponents with greater skill can beat them down. It's keeping them down that's the issue.
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Thomas and the rest of the White Court don't have to work out to be in shape. They pick up their fighting skills just like anyone else. Their Demon just gives them strength, speed, super senses and regeneration just like Wolverine. And like Wolverine, opponents with greater skill can beat them down. It's keeping them down that's the issue.
Well, being born faster,stronger, and with super senses rather gives you an advantage when you learn those fighting skills doesn't it? And since you don't lose the skills you were born with it sort of makes you a super warrior... ::)
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Well, being born faster,stronger, and with super senses rather gives you an advantage when you learn those fighting skills doesn't it? And since you don't lose the skills you were born with it sort of makes you a super warrior... ::)
It depends on who you're fighting. Fighting mortals he's a super warrior, fighting a Skin Walker, not so much. Fighting another White, practice, training and experience count.
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It depends on who you're fighting. Fighting mortals he's a super warrior, fighting a Skin Walker, not so much. Fighting another White, practice, training and experience count.
You still have an advantage.. A well trained vanilla warrior is no match for a skin walker, a vampire at least has a chance. Hell, Lara is the one who kicked the eye from the Ethinu's head, neither Butters nor Sanya could do that.
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Lara gains A real ally in Winter. The White Court is the weakest vampire court that we've seen.
Lara and harry have been attracted to one another for some time. I'm predicting that it's just physical and once they have a chance to exorcise the hormones they're going to realize that they'll never work long term. That doesn't mean they won't remain married, but it will be a sham. A political marriage only.
Harry gains protection from the White Council. Or, I should say, more protection from the White Council. Since they're a signatory of the accords, they couldn't just go and off the Winter Knight. Just as Molly still has the Doom of Damocles over her head, the White Council would be idiots to try and prosecute that given that she's now the Winter Lady.
Harry gains by access to the Raith Library.
Harry is protected from Raith trickery because Thomas is in the big house on Demonreach. Of course that still leaves Malvora, Skavis, and Barrowill trickery.
Lara might give in to her demon and feed on Harry, but my prediction is that she winds up feeding on the Winter Knight mantle. Which will bring her closer to Winter and possibly make her a suitable vessel for fae power. Better than Molly, as Lara has hundreds of years of existence in a court of predatory backstabbers. Mab is always five moves ahead in her three dimensional chess game.
This will also cause Harry to be further on the outs with the Svartalves.
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At least harry can use chateau raith for a hot shower again.
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Lara gains A real ally in Winter. The White Court is the weakest vampire court that we've seen.
I think it is fair to say that in a 1-1 battle, a white court vamp is weaker than a Red and definitely weaker than a Black. The White vs Red match will be equal for a bit - until the white vamp runs out of energy and then it is killed. The Black vs White will end quickly with a dead White.
HOWEVER, that is a long way from saying the White Court is the weakest vampire court. Arguably they are the STRONGEST court if your focus is on the mortal world. Which is why I think Mab wants them as allies. The focus of the conflict is the mortal world going forward.
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At least harry can use chateau raith for a hot shower again.
He does not need hot showers anymore.
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He does not need hot showers anymore.
Harry does on occasion like to limit his attachment to Winter. He might still enjoy a hot shower, especially if Lara is there to share it with him.
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Harry does on occasion like to limit his attachment to Winter. He might still enjoy a hot shower, especially if Lara is there to share it with him.
The last thing Harry wants is being naked with Lara. The next book will be uncomfortable.
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The last thing Harry wants is being naked with Lara. The next book will be uncomfortable.
Yeah, she might point and laugh... :o
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He does not need hot showers anymore.
The cold never bothered him anyway.
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One more complication to Harry and Lara's relationship, though admittedly it's an obvious complication and not insurmountable in the long-run.
At the present time Harry is poison for Lara; or any other WCV, to touch because of his love protection. Lara will want to find a way to get past Harry's protection; and to a certain extent so will Harry, but his more logical side will want to maintain that protection. If nothing else Harry will feel a different kind of sexual frustration than he has known in the past. Harry was a loner and shy to boot, so he didn't get much action. Now Harry's choice will be, remain celibate or become enslaved and eventually die, even though it would be a great time while it lasted. This isn't something Harry hasn't experienced before. Yes, in Cold Days Harry knew that Maeve wanted to either kill him of get her hooks into him, but I don't think Harry ever respected or feared Maeve the way he does Lara.
On a somewhat speculative note, should another member of House Raith brush up against Harry they will get burned and realize that Lara isn't feeding on Harry and doesn't have control of him. This could cause some dangerous complications. Instead of seeing Harry as Lara's tamed property, other members of the White Court would equate Harry to a live grenade in their midst. It could also reflect poorly on Lara's leadership, leading to possible challenges.
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After the wedding Harry will no longer have protection from Lara. The wedding vows are a spell that removes true love protection. See Something Borrowed for confirmation.
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Honestly I feel like the smart members of the White Court will look at Harry like a live grenade in their midst regardless. It's frankly a rather apt analogy.
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After the wedding Harry will no longer have protection from Lara. The wedding vows are a spell that removes true love protection. See Something Borrowed for confirmation.
I haven't read that one, but in any case that true love protection is really not the obstacle that people think is in practicable terms.
Mab can order Harry into bed with any Winter fae lady other than Molly to break it and Justine had no problems finding willing threesome partners to help with Thomas so I really doubt Lara couldn't find one or two just lying about(both literally and figuratively) to help out.
And since consummation is part an old school marriage, Harry is dutybound to accept whatever option is chosen at least once which is all it takes to cancel it.
The alliance with Mab will make Lara stronger with the rest of her Court. Harry won't be a live grenade, but more a machine gun emplacement that just makes her defenses that much tougher.
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After the wedding Harry will no longer have protection from Lara. The wedding vows are a spell that removes true love protection. See Something Borrowed for confirmation.
Pay attention to detail though. It's sealed with the kiss. If they can't kiss, then it doesn't count. And I doubt that them getting married will get rid of his protection. I've read the short. That was a marriage that was sabotaged. Will was giving his heart to someone who he thought was the love of his life. The marriage between Harry and Lara isn't a marriage of love. They know what they are getting with the other. A business partner, not a spouse.
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After the wedding Harry will no longer have protection from Lara. The wedding vows are a spell that removes true love protection. See Something Borrowed for confirmation.
This would be huge plot hole and problem I think for most readers if all a Whampire had to do was get a someone to marry them to get around the love protection issue and be rather convenient just to have a loophole like that. I hope Jim won't have it be that easy for Harry to lose the protection that Murphy gives him if Dresden doesn't find away out of it.
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One more complication to Harry and Lara's relationship, though admittedly it's an obvious complication and not insurmountable in the long-run.
At the present time Harry is poison for Lara; or any other WCV, to touch because of his love protection. Lara will want to find a way to get past Harry's protection; and to a certain extent so will Harry, but his more logical side will want to maintain that protection. If nothing else Harry will feel a different kind of sexual frustration than he has known in the past. Harry was a loner and shy to boot, so he didn't get much action. Now Harry's choice will be, remain celibate or become enslaved and eventually die, even though it would be a great time while it lasted. This isn't something Harry hasn't experienced before. Yes, in Cold Days Harry knew that Maeve wanted to either kill him of get her hooks into him, but I don't think Harry ever respected or feared Maeve the way he does Lara.
On a somewhat speculative note, should another member of House Raith brush up against Harry they will get burned and realize that Lara isn't feeding on Harry and doesn't have control of him. This could cause some dangerous complications. Instead of seeing Harry as Lara's tamed property, other members of the White Court would equate Harry to a live grenade in their midst. It could also reflect poorly on Lara's leadership, leading to possible challenges.
I do not think eating Harry is part of the deal. Mab was pretty clear about that in peace talks.
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Pay attention to detail though. It's sealed with the kiss. If they can't kiss, then it doesn't count. And I doubt that them getting married will get rid of his protection. I've read the short. That was a marriage that was sabotaged. Will was giving his heart to someone who he thought was the love of his life. The marriage between Harry and Lara isn't a marriage of love. They know what they are getting with the other. A business partner, not a spouse.
Lara can take the hit to break the protection.
The feelings don't matter, it's the vows that matter.
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Lara can take the hit to break the protection.
The feelings don't matter, it's the vows that matter.
It does not has to be a Christian wedding and I am sure monogamy will not be part of the pledges they make.
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Harry won't be a live grenade, but more a machine gun emplacement that just makes her defenses that much tougher.
I'm really curious how that works for Lara's standing in the Court. She's on the verge of losing the charade of acting as her father's deputy, so maybe being the face of the political alliance with Winter and gaining a walking weapon of a husband helps make challenges to her look less appealing to other whamps. On the other hand, most of the supernatural community sees Harry as a direct and not particularly intelligent brawler, which is exactly what the white court respects least. Marrying Harry look like an attempt to hold power by leashing a brute enforcer, but doesn't that have a lot of potential to backfire among the WC?
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Lara can take the hit to break the protection.
The feelings don't matter, it's the vows that matter.
No it's both that matter. As I stated, Will went to the alter believing heart and mind that who he was marrying was Georgia. He was giving his heart to who he thought was in front of him. Unbeknownst to him, he was going to give his heart to Jenny, who would be given a line to him and had the power to dominate him.
A marriage between Harry and Lara won't have love between them. As I said before, it will be a business merger. Harry will have his TL protection and won't have a connection to his life. His job title on the other hand, there is where there's a problem.
Think of it this way. When they are at the alter, if Mab says ( as I believe she will be the one who will marry them) that the marriage is between Harry Dresden, Winter Knight of the Winter Court, and Lara Raith, right hand and daughter of the White King of the White Court, there are titles of protection to the person, titles making it a business merger. But if she said that the marriage is between Harry Dresden and Lara Raith, that is a union of to souls to become one. But with Harry's TL protection and him not loving her, the connection won't be there.
You could say that I am agreeing with you on part but disagreeing with you on the other.
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I think part of freeing Thomas will involve Papa Wraith's death.
I don't think Thomas' next role is as KotC but as the next White King. The trick will be having Papa Wraith take the fall for the Svartalves assassination attempt and getting Thomas cured tied together in an impeccable story that also implies that Lara was the mover and shaker behind the scenes.
If Lara and Harry can make it seem that they've been allies for a longer time, then typical White Court paranoia will sew just enough doubt that Harry might be acting and is secretly a masterful deep schemer. Don't laugh, Lara was half convinced of this at the end of Peace Talks and she has more inside information on Harry than 99% of the supernatural world. From the outside, you can make a case for Lara and Harry being a team since meeting on the movie set.
The timeline actually flows pretty well for a conspiracy theorist.
Harry and Lara meet on the movie shoot, She defies her father's orders to kill him and works with Harry to perform a palace coup.
It's Harry she calls upon to defeat the first real threat to her power in White Night. He doesn't leave with the rest of "his" allies but accompanies Lara back to the mansion.
Harry is called in to deal with the Skinwalker and the attempt to restart the war with the White Council in Turn Coat and she delays her departure until she can personally speak with him.
Harry is the person who makes all her introductions in Peace Talks.
And now, she engaged to Harry, the Winter Knight, just as the White Council kicks him out. His role as her spy in the White Council has reached it's end, now they will inveigle the Winter Court together.
The next step is to finally put away Papa Wraith and install their pawn/co-conspirator Thomas as the White King while building their powerbase.
Wizard of Chicago comes next. Harry and Lara spend the year before their marriage getting him in with the Chicago social scene. Operating a new magical organization will be a perfect cover for their secret activities. It won't fool the Accorded Nations but it'll do a fine job against mortal authorities coming in after Battle Ground. A big flashy target that does authentic good works will build up good PR at the least. Drop a few juicy secrets for the Men in Black to discover and they'll inevitably take the easier route and focus their attention there and away from the really important stuff. Pretty good improvisation to cover the completely world changing event Ethniu caused
The Immortals will know this is all nuttier than an explosion at the the Planter's packaging plant but for the majority of the Supernatural world ??? Looks like a master plan between the Queen White Court schemer and her young new Wizard lover.
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The last thing Harry wants is being naked with Lara. The next book will be uncomfortable.
I believe that Mab warned Lara about trying to feed on her Knight.... So any sex they have will be without feeding.... Something Lara isn't used to.
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I believe that Mab warned Lara about trying to feed on her Knight.... So any sex they have will be without feeding.... Something Lara isn't used to.
Mab did. And Lara can not always completely control it so...
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Mab did. And Lara can not always completely control it so...
The only time she's shown herself lose control was after being badly injured. Also unlike Thomas, Lara stays well fed. She could control herself with Dresden unless a she was badly injured, and near death, or had been starved for a long period of time.
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The only time she's shown herself lose control was after being badly injured. Also unlike Thomas, Lara stays well fed. She could control herself with Dresden unless a she was badly injured, and near death, or had been starved for a long period of time.
In the dojo in peace talks she explained it a bit. And these previous encounters were maybe sexually loaded but they didn’t actually have a full sexual encounter. I do not think Lara ever tried to control her demon through that.
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The question isn't whether or not Lara can control her demon. The question is whether or not Harry can control his mantle.
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The question isn't whether or not Lara can control her demon. The question is whether or not Harry can control his mantle.
It is both but read that scene in the dojo again. She clearly said she could not always control it.
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It is both but read that scene in the dojo again. She clearly said she could not always control it.
Should make things even more interesting... Maybe Mab knows that and intends for Lara to be in her debt later.
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So I really like this pairing. I think the two of them are really good together and I can actually see it as Harrys final pairing.
The only thing I am apprehensive about is Lara being a Wamp. The books have never been super clear about how the white court feeding works. Depending on how it works, I can see a Wamp living a life as a decent person depending on how they go about it.
On option is that when they feed on the person, the damage is permanent and the person will literally die sooner than they would have in life due to the feeding, no matter how small it was.
The other option, which is think is somewhat better supported by the narrative, is that the life force the Wamps feed on is just like human blood. So long as you dont take too much the damage is superficial and the person just grows back without any lasting damage. The key here would be to not feed in the manner many Wamps do, by raping people. So if Lara or Thomas were to have consensual sex and feed off the person, I cant see any moral problem with this so long as they dont kill the person. I even think they could use their "sensual auras" on people to make themselves seem extremely appealing so long as they didnt put the whammy on so hard that the person didnt have choice in the matter any more.
Its also never been made clear as far as I recall what kind of Wamp Lara is, morally speaking. Meaning, is she like Thomas. I know my first read through the books I just kinda assumed she was evil since she was a Wamp. But I actually cant remember now if we ever see her feed to kill or use her sex appeal magic to override someones will outside of battle. Someone mentioned to me that somewhere in the books it is stated that her harem are all volunteers, but I would like to see someone confirm that.
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So I really like this pairing. I think the two of them are really good together and I can actually see it as Harrys final pairing.
Yes, it can be pretty final.
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I can remember when after SG came out, there were a few Murphy fans that swore with everything they had that she was the last girlfriend, that they would get married. Even when people predicted, saw the signs, warned them that she would bite off more than she could chew and die. And what happened? She was around for half to 2/3 of what was going to be one book.
So just because Harry and Lara are being forced into marriage now doesn't mean this is the end relationship for Harry. There are other options for Harry. Jim himself said that people should see Harry and Molly as a possible romantic relationship. There is also Elaine that could rekindle.
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I can remember when after SG came out, there were a few Murphy fans that swore with everything they had that she was the last girlfriend, that they would get married. Even when people predicted, saw the signs, warned them that she would bite off more than she could chew and die. And what happened? She was around for half to 2/3 of what was going to be one book.
So just because Harry and Lara are being forced into marriage now doesn't mean this is the end relationship for Harry. There are other options for Harry. Jim himself said that people should see Harry and Molly as a possible romantic relationship. There is also Elaine that could rekindle.
I don't see it working out between Lara and Harry at all.. Terrific sex maybe, but there is a fundamental difference on how they each see the world... While Harry can be a predator at times,
Lara is all predator and that just isn't how Harry sees things.
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I don't see them ever being a lovey-dovey couple but more "friends with occasional benefits" who work together.
I think Lara will bail Harry out of various situations and require sex as compensation when she doesn't need something Wizardly at the time. We've already seen Harry start to feel the pull of debt obligations through his mantle. Lara will use that to her advantage in their personal and business interactions.
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Yeah imho this will, best-case-scenario, be a purely political relationship with them being allies that help each other occasionally.
Though a small part of me almost wants Jim to go the route of Lara genuinely falling for Harry just for the sheer amount of existential dread that would cause him.
Because that would probably be about the most terrifying thing Harry could imagine.
(Not that I think it will happen, Lara isn't the type from what we've seen of her)
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See, another part of me wants that just so we can get the chapter were they explain all this to Thomas.
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You know, I just thought of something. I think Jim is messing with some people in a way that I haven't seen discussed.
Some fans have had issue with Molly being a romantic intrest because of her father and Harry being good friends and people thinking that it makes it feel like Harry is Molly's uncle.
Now, Jim is marrying Harry and Lara, who are basically step siblings through Thomas.
I don't know if Jim is throwing it in people's faces that this is his story to tell or if it is an unintended thing, but I think it's funny either way because it's what is happening.
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You know, I just thought of something. I think Jim is messing with some people in a way that I haven't seen discussed.
Some fans have had issue with Molly being a romantic intrest because of her father and Harry being good friends and people thinking that it makes it feel like Harry is Molly's uncle.
Now, Jim is marrying Harry and Lara, who are basically step siblings through Thomas.
I don't know if Jim is throwing it in people's faces that this is his story to tell or if it is an unintended thing, but I think it's funny either way because it's what is happening.
Historically gods and monsters do not worry about these things
The problem with Molly as a romantic interest used to be the age difference and the master-pupil dependency.
Age difference becomes less of an issue when both persons get older.
Now the problem is that after each date Harry needs a few months of medical care but I am sure they can work around that ;D
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If history is any indicator, Lara is in for a bumpy ride. Does anyone have any idea if Lara is old enough to have been a contemporary of Mab's mortal part?
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If history is any indicator, Lara is in for a bumpy ride. Does anyone have any idea if Lara is old enough to have been a contemporary of Mab's mortal part?
From watch Corb tells in peace talks Mab was a contemporary of the original Merlin that is sixth century. We have a few hints about Lara’s past but they are never that old. From what I gather she is at most a few centuries old.
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From watch Corb tells in peace talks Mab was a contemporary of the original Merlin that is sixth century. We have a few hints about Lara’s past but they are never that old. From what I gather she is at most a few centuries old.
I agree. The portraits that Lord Raith painted of the women who gave birth to his children start in the 15th or 16th century. That would appear to put a limit on her age of 500 - 600 years, but it could be much less than that. I don't think it has ever been stated or even implied that Lara was LR's first child.
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I agree. The portraits that Lord Raith painted of the women who gave birth to his children start in the 15th or 16th century. That would appear to put a limit on her age of 500 - 600 years, but it could be much less than that. I don't think it has ever been stated or even implied that Lara was LR's first child.
Especially since he's murdered all of his sons, accept for Thomas. Lara was probably just his favorite, and possibly oldest daughter.
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If history is any indicator, Lara is in for a bumpy ride. Does anyone have any idea if Lara is old enough to have been a contemporary of Mab's mortal part?
I don't know but Raith was said to be around 2,000 years old I think. So it's possible.