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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Feral Plum on November 25, 2020, 11:58:40 AM
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Is Butters the first genius-level knight of the cross to have a multi year backing in wizardry as Butters does from Bob?
It seems we would have noticed such a character in history. Too early by far, but Solomon pops to mind. Could butters contain, or bottle, evil spirits?
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Is Butters the first genius-level knight of the cross to have a multi year backing in wizardry as Butters does from Bob?
It seems we would have noticed such a character in history. Too early by far, but Solomon pops to mind. Could butters contain, or bottle, evil spirits?
Works for me, and gives Butters the supposed requirement of coming from a royal bloodline.
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Works for me, and gives Butters the supposed requirement of coming from a royal bloodline.
We will find one if needed. Just invent a genealogy, it is an age old tradition.
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Is Butters the first genius-level knight of the cross to have a multi year backing in wizardry as Butters does from Bob?
It seems we would have noticed such a character in history. Too early by far, but Solomon pops to mind. Could butters contain, or bottle, evil spirits?
If Butters is of David's line that makes an even easier explanation why he can be a Knight of the Cross. He's related to the mortal part of Jesus.
This theory is cool and the only qualifications seem to be some relation to royalty. I hope you're right.
I'm excited to see who gets Amorachius and what the story ends up being and it better be epic. It's Excalibur
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I prefer bin Saul or bin Ahab myself. Or even a Khazar Khan.
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Look if AfroRussian can have detectable lineage to Saladin, then I'm quite sure Butters can have detectable line to Genghis Khan
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Look if AfroRussian can have detectable lineage to Saladin, then I'm quite sure Butters can have detectable line to Genghis Khan
If you test his Y chromosome. Which means nothing. It must be about inheritance, a claim to the responsibility of kingship. There is a lot of mythology connected to that because in a lot of monarchies the kings claim godly authority, godly ancestry or even being gods. That brings belief and power and story.
So compare to the return of the king, Tolkien borrowed this idea. Half the nobility of Gondor must have had some line to some king of Gondor in the past, that did not count. And descendants of farmers daughters the king abused for a night didn’t count either.
Think holy blood, holy grail. The book that preceded the Da Vinci code.
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I don't think it's that hard.
I mean otherwise Charlemagne blood would not work for Michael - as he is definitely not legal heir to Carolingian monarchy.
I think any royal lineage - not even legitimate in sense of crown would work well enough - so even Y chromosomes would not necessarily work - it could all be through maternal lines. (Which also is a reason why I dislike this idea - because I guess at least half of mankind have SOME royal ancestor which makes whole RULE quite cheap.).
Michael may be descendant of Charlemagne in some way but he is definitely not one in line that would make him eligible to throne of France for instance. Neither are other guys. It's more than mystical element of king's blood stick around for a long time.
Now Aragorn had very fine claim to the throne as last descendant in direct male line of Elendil. But then if we compare it - Knight of the Cross is not a King. In fact probably he should not be a King (though we know there were exceptions) as it would make him involved in various mundane actions that are usually not so virtuous. - But let's compare it to Tolkien.
Sure Boromir, Faramir, Denethor - those guys have king's bloods, High Numenorean blood, thought they are not king lineage. They are not as strong, tall, longlived and willpowered as Aragorn, still they are way more powerful in those aspects for good or bad than any random Rohirrim or Daleman or Haradrim.
At least I hope so - because dammit if Jim's want to suggest Knights need not also king's blood but also legitimate claim, I'm gonna fly to USA, drive all the way from Chicago to whatever Kansas desert he's hiding and hit him with a head three times with some big, complex, academic book about history of medieval kingdoms.
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Sure Boromir, Faramir, Denethor - those guys have king's bloods, High Numenorean blood, thought they are not king lineage. They are not as strong, tall, longlived and willpowered as Aragorn, still they are way more powerful in those aspects for good or bad than any random Rohirrim or Daleman or Haradrim.
If I remember also Denethor's line, though Numenorean, had become watered down over the centuries so their life spans were closer to normal humans. Also it is repeated often in The Lord of the Rings that Aragorn is descended from the line of Luthien Tinuviel the elf princess who gave up her mortality for a mortal, Beren, "her line will never fail.." So female descent was critical.
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Both Aragorn and Denethor house were descendants of Luthien and elven princess Idril Celebrindal through Elros.
Yes house of stewards married more among non-Numenoreans, still Denethor was probably second after Aragorn in amount of old Numenorean power. He was able to fight for palantir in will-duel with Sauron and win, this is not something common mortal could do.
Nevertheless this pure race aspect is less important in terms of real royalty as most kings married foreign princesses anyway
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And all Anglo Saxon kings descended from Woden. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies
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And all Anglo Saxon kings descended from Woden. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies
I wonder if he will be descended from an early Jewish Dynasty (or the first of it's kind's Jewish dynasty to fit the Khans which given his love of Polka might make the most sense) to compliment Shiro being descended from the Last King of Okinawa. Or Jim just pulled the location timing of the dynasties random and not tied to Shiro being the last true wielder of Esperachius as a sword proper before it was reignited.
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And all Anglo Saxon kings descended from Woden. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies
Well so they claim. But I doubt eventual blood of Odin matters. As much as I understand WOJ about it - this whole king magic is more like state-wide obligation of responsibility and protection. A debt. A threshold... A mantle in a way. That's what causes descendants of kings (which are multiple) to have enough mojo to take Swords.
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Well so they claim. But I doubt eventual blood of Odin matters. As much as I understand WOJ about it - this whole king magic is more like state-wide obligation of responsibility and protection. A debt. A threshold... A mantle in a way. That's what causes descendants of kings (which are multiple) to have enough mojo to take Swords.
But te claim matters. If they make enough people believe it it will have a power of its own. And maybe it is even true. In the Dresden verse.
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So obviously it takes a special kind of person to be a knight of the sword, you've alluded to perhaps royal bloodline kind of stuff, but a lot of the people who have the sword have this kind of pretty typical holders Sanya with the saber, Shiro with the katana, Murphy with the heavenly judgment and stuff so my question is, are there particular characteristics or quirks that the swords kind of use to pick their people that transcend beyond standard virtue.
That's the thing you don't have to be special to pick up a sword and use it, you've got to be special to pick up a sword and use it right. Or at least one of the Swords which I assume will have a capital letter in Sword. What the sword looks for more than anything else is sort of the ultimate martial value, the ultimate martial value is love for the people in your life. Because if you love the people who are behind you, that's why you're willing to fight for them. So that's the first thing the sword always looks for, and if you don't have that you can't pick up a sword. Well you can pick it up but it won't do anything for you. That's the main thing, stuff like courage and athletic ability all that is secondary it's who are you and are you willing to die for someone else. That's really mostly what the swords care about, and then if someone uses them wrong they'll get shattered or whatever, you know, good job Murphy. But other than that.
Does that mean Butters is royalty?
Butters is Jewish, he's descended from the 12 tribes of Israel, he's going to have royalty in his bloodline somewhere. And not only that but really like- I think the number is at like 35 or 40 percent at this point of the people on the planet who have a king in their background somewhere. My family goes back to Charlemagne so you know.
The king stuff seems to have been a red herring in the end.
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The king stuff seems to have been a red herring in the end.
Or he made it a red herring because the idea was not as good as he first thought. ;D
There is a lot wrong with that idea if you believe in democracy and human rights and so on.
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But te claim matters. If they make enough people believe it it will have a power of its own. And maybe it is even true. In the Dresden verse.
But knights do not operate on claims. They all have king's blood but not kingly claims.
Remnants of king's spiritual power is good for knights in some way.
Or he made it a red herring because the idea was not as good as he first thought. ;D
There is a lot wrong with that idea if you believe in democracy and human rights and so on.
You can believe in democracy and human rights and still accept such power brings certain spiritual power with itself.
One can say entire Dresden Files premise is very anti-egalitarian with wizards being rare born superheroes for instance.
But I think problem is more with lack of clear rules - like what constitutes for a king in a first place. Was let's say Joseph Stalin a king?
If king is wicked and exploits people shall he leaves proper spiritual aura in his blood descendants and so on...
And also as Jim notices - descendants of kings are half of mankind these days.
I mean 10% of all Irishmen are descendants in direct male line (so count all the female lineages) of one man living about 1500 years ago presumed to be king Neill of Nine Hostages. Which makes all thing bit redundant.
You know I have less problem with this idea as a Christian - I mean Jesus itself was born on purpose in side depowered lineage of David dynasty on his human side, so it is within our symbolic rules. I have more problem that basically each time you can get intel about it. Dresden got like king lineage to all three original Knights, even though neither belongs to even side nobility at these point. I call bollocks on this research :P
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The king stuff seems to have been a red herring in the end.
It might be a setup for how the swords work the way they do.
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But knights do not operate on claims. They all have king's blood but not kingly claims.
Remnants of king's spiritual power is good for knights in some way.
You can believe in democracy and human rights and still accept such power brings certain spiritual power with itself.
One can say entire Dresden Files premise is very anti-egalitarian with wizards being rare born superheroes for instance.
But I think problem is more with lack of clear rules - like what constitutes for a king in a first place. Was let's say Joseph Stalin a king?
If king is wicked and exploits people shall he leaves proper spiritual aura in his blood descendants and so on...
And also as Jim notices - descendants of kings are half of mankind these days.
I mean 10% of all Irishmen are descendants in direct male line (so count all the female lineages) of one man living about 1500 years ago presumed to be king Neill of Nine Hostages. Which makes all thing bit redundant.
You know I have less problem with this idea as a Christian - I mean Jesus itself was born on purpose in side depowered lineage of David dynasty on his human side, so it is within our symbolic rules. I have more problem that basically each time you can get intel about it. Dresden got like king lineage to all three original Knights, even though neither belongs to even side nobility at these point. I call bollocks on this research :P
The point is these stories were invented with a purpose. Legitimizing the absolute rule of the king. Making rejecting that rule not just a crime against the state but one against god himself. They did not have the technology and the organization but this is the legitimation, the underpinning of totalitarian rule, of the absolute monarchy.
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Jim read Le Morte d'Arthur and got hot and bothered about the mythology of the Round Table and the Sword. He role plays in armor and asked his present wife to marry him in his full regalia. He has an awful lot of hanging plot points and a diminishing amount of time to clear them up. This is one of them.
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While the whole book is about how a king should rule and the legitimation of kingship. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/159564753.pdf
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Ignoring if Butters is one of the Three Kings - appropriate around Christmas - Butters has Faith, There Sword of Faith, a 140+ IQ, And an intensive introduction to the theory of magic by Bob.
Waldo Butters is capable of being more powerful than any typical Knight of the Cross. Also, all the clued-in folks know Butter is a Good Man. So he has an immense amount of trust. When he bargains or testifies, he will be believed. In a chess analogy, he is a pawn which has crossed the board. He is in a stronger position than Harry. I smell a set up.
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Ignoring if Butters is one of the Three Kings - appropriate around Christmas - Butters has Faith, There Sword of Faith, a 140+ IQ, And an intensive introduction to the theory of magic by Bob.
Waldo Butters is capable of being more powerful than any typical Knight of the Cross. Also, all the clued-in folks know Butter is a Good Man. So he has an immense amount of trust. When he bargains or testifies, he will be believed. In a chess analogy, he is a pawn which has crossed the board. He is in a stronger position than Harry. I smell a set up.
The greatest strength Butters has in my opinion, is an open mind.
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The point is these stories were invented with a purpose. Legitimizing the absolute rule of the king. Making rejecting that rule not just a crime against the state but one against god himself. They did not have the technology and the organization but this is the legitimation, the underpinning of totalitarian rule, of the absolute monarchy.
Absolute monarchies which never reached level that could be called totalitarian maybe aside few short periods in Russian tzardom, evolved way way way later than most of dynasties, and kingdoms. And squabbling with kings was common thing for all medieval period - without rejecting system itself.
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The greatest strength Butters has in my opinion, is an open mind.
Butters greatest strength is having Jim love him too much and you know it.
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Butters greatest strength is having Jim love him too much and you know it.
I've always loved Butters, the guy who faced the Titan is the same guy who hung in there and rapped out what Harry needed to keep Sue going in Dead Beat.
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Both Aragorn and Denethor house were descendants of Luthien and elven princess Idril Celebrindal through Elros.
Yes house of stewards married more among non-Numenoreans, still Denethor was probably second after Aragorn in amount of old Numenorean power. He was able to fight for palantir in will-duel with Sauron and win, this is not something common mortal could do.
Nevertheless this pure race aspect is less important in terms of real royalty as most kings married foreign princesses anyway
Cite, please. The Stewards were not of the royal line.
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If I remember also Denethor's line, though Numenorean, had become watered down over the centuries so their life spans were closer to normal humans. Also it is repeated often in The Lord of the Rings that Aragorn is descended from the line of Luthien Tinuviel the elf princess who gave up her mortality for a mortal, Beren, "her line will never fail.." So female descent was critical.
What?
Elros and Elrond are the descendents of Luthien. That's where the Numenorean kings came from.
Saying "the line of Luthien" is the same as saying "line of kings of Numenor"
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Cite, please. The Stewards were not of the royal line.
Not the direct line sure. No inheritance claim strong enough to claim the throne. But if you go for the everyone has some king somewhere in his ancestry reasoning then it is almost inevitable. The royal line has to intermarry somewhere and the higher nobility were the only real candidates.
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What?
Elros and Elrond are the descendents of Luthien. That's where the Numenorean kings came from.
Saying "the line of Luthien" is the same as saying "line of kings of Numenor"
Yes, but the line of the Kings of Gondor became diluted over time by marriage to normal people. So not so direct, and over time though they still lived a bit longer than ordinary humans, they were diminished. Marriages among the men of the North that Aragorn came from, did not and though there were way fewer of them, they kept many of the characteristics of original men of Numenor.
It gets complicated, Tolkien mapped out extensive family trees, and when Legolas said "the line of Luthien would never fail," it was Aragorn's line he was talking about and not the Stewards of Gondor.
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Yes, but the line of the Kings of Gondor became diluted over time by marriage to normal people. So not so direct, and over time though they still lived a bit longer than ordinary humans, they were diminished. Marriages among the men of the North that Aragorn came from, did not and though there were way fewer of them, they kept many of the characteristics of original men of Numenor.
It gets complicated, Tolkien mapped out extensive family trees, and when Legolas said "the line of Luthien would never fail," it was Aragorn's line he was talking about and not the Stewards of Gondor.
Which means the blood of normal people got enriched by that of the line of the kings of Gondor. That is how these things work.
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Which means the blood of normal people got enriched by that of the line of the kings of Gondor. That is how these things work.
Exactly, they all carried some of the genes, also there were some that did marry elves, though that was rare. But returning to the real world, lots of kings fathered children outside of marriage, so while bastards usually didn't inherit a throne, they still were of that king's bloodline.