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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Dina on November 15, 2020, 05:26:45 AM
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I have made a post about this in another thread, but as apparently nobody read it I decided to do a new one. As the title says, I've reread Monsters after reading BG-
Viti says that Marcone is bad, is dangerous and he can kill Grey. I think now we know she was not talking about what we thought before, vanilla man doing extraordinary things but Denarian. And I found that very interesting. Also, apparently Grey cannot detect the Fallen in him
Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him. And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.
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I have made a post about this in another thread, but as apparently nobody read it I decided to do a new one. As the title says, I've reread Monsters after reading BG-
Viti says that Marcone is bad, is dangerous and he can kill Grey. I think now we know she was not talking about what we thought before, vanilla man doing extraordinary things but Denarian. And I found that very interesting. Also, apparently Grey cannot detect the Fallen in him
Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him.
You have the right mentality. You get the sword.
And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.
Grey is trying to rise, Marcone is falling even further. Namshiel will take care of that, he chose that coin willingly and knowingly. That is quite different from Sanya.
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Yes, Grey is trying to be a better being, Marcone is trying to be a better Marcone.
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Of course to keep up the parallels (like them losing their moral pillars in the same book) Marcone will probably make a slightly upward climb around the same time Harry does unless Jim plans for them to diverge and have that showdown.
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Grey is trying to rise, Marcone is falling even further. Namshiel will take care of that, he chose that coin willingly and knowingly.
I'm not really convinced all the Fallen are equally interested in corrupting the souls of their carriers. I think that may be more of a side objective to what the significant players among them are really doing, of varying interest to various Fallen, and the Church has mistaken that for their main purpose.
Now, I'm sure carrying Namshiel for a truly long time would make Marcone even darker. But, realistically, he's already pretty bad. It could take Namshiel decades or centuries to get him to bend on 'no children', if he ever does. I think he's up to something more important than long-gaming a bad man into a worse one, and that something probably takes priority over changing Marcone unless he can get two birds with one stone.
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Oh yes, I agree corrupting Marcone is not Namshiel priority. Anyway, cheesy as it sounds, I don't think Harry allows Marcone to be as corrupted.
I wonder how the Fallen in general (apart of the Nic "family") feel about someone resisting Lasciel, the temptress, just like Harry did.
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It's the enchantments on the castle that you should be paying attention to. Marcone is neither more evil or less evil then he was, but to exercise that evil in Chicago would call down the Knights on him.
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Hope so, I love the Knights. Mm, I wonder if Marcone/Namshiel are aware of where Amoracchius is.
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It's the enchantments on the castle that you should be paying attention to. Marcone is neither more evil or less evil then he was, but to exercise that evil in Chicago would call down the Knights on him.
He may not be, but personally he can do a heck a lot more damage than he could before as a plain vanilla human.
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I have no idea where Jim will go with this, but what evil can Marcone do that he isn't already doing? He runs prostitution and drugs, controls gambling, and takes a percentage of any crime that happens on his patch. And he murders at will. Kinda hard to see how he is any worse than what he was. And all that rigamarole that Jim rolled out about him being the first mortal member of the accords turns out to be bs.
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No. He was just a mortal when he became a baron, I believe. And what can he do that is worse? Magic.
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I have no idea where Jim will go with this, but what evil can Marcone do that he isn't already doing? He runs prostitution and drugs, controls gambling, and takes a percentage of any crime that happens on his patch. And he murders at will. Kinda hard to see how he is any worse than what he was. And all that rigamarole that Jim rolled out about him being the first mortal member of the accords turns out to be bs.
You can always get worse. Before the series is over he will loose all rules he set for himself, the protection of children and the loyalties to his own people. He lost Hendricks and he will loose The respect of Gard.
Corruption is the main goal of the fallen. That is what they are, that is their purpose. Namshiel can only express himself via Marcone. He wants to use him to corrupt Marcone and everyone else. Taking his time if necessary.
They can’t stop. It took Anduriel some time to make Nicodemus kill his daughter. Even his descent is not finished yet.
Lasciel laughed, musically, the sound of it pure pleasure on the ears. “Oh, Harry,” she said. “Did you really think that it’s possible to pick up corruption in a nice clean handkerchief and lock it away in a box? No, of course not. Forces such as we cannot be contained by mortals, my lover. We are a part of you all.”
Of course Marcone has free will. He still can choose differently and the knights will ask him to do so. But it is not very likely.
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Hope so, I love the Knights. Mm, I wonder if Marcone/Namshiel are aware of where Amoracchius is.
I think he can make some good guesses. It was last seen in Michael’s hands so it is either in his house or on Harry’s island. Both are out of his direct reach.
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Thanks TWG
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I have no idea where Jim will go with this, but what evil can Marcone do that he isn't already doing? He runs prostitution and drugs, controls gambling, and takes a percentage of any crime that happens on his patch. And he murders at will. Kinda hard to see how he is any worse than what he was. And all that rigamarole that Jim rolled out about him being the first mortal member of the accords turns out to be bs.
He can get more personal, for lack of a better word... You know wave his hand, say the magic word and incinerate a full day care center.. This is stuff that Namshiel can do, that vanilla Baron Marcone couldn't do with a wave of his hand.
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I agree.
Back to the short story, I was intrigued for something. Grey speaks about Marcone bodyguard (not mentioned) as Eihenjaren and revenant. He even threats of passing through a valkyrie and eihenjaren. The story is said to take place "some time after SG" and I don't think is post-BG because the world and Chicago seem to normal, too masquerade-holding. So...was Hendricks an eihenjaren before BG?
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I agree.
Back to the short story, I was intrigued for something. Grey speaks about Marcone bodyguard (not mentioned) as Eihenjaren and revenant. He even threats of passing through a valkyrie and eihenjaren. The story is said to take place "some time after SG" and I don't think is post-BG because the world and Chicago seem to normal, too masquerade-holding. So...was Hendricks an eihenjaren before BG?
If he was Gard wouldn't have been drinking so much after the battle.
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I agree, but this is weird. Unless Hendricks was not here, but have we ever seen Marcone without Hendricks until the end of BG?
This is a post of the time of that story (by Snark Knight)
It was alright, but the lack of revealing any real backstory or lore held it back somewhat. Viti was interesting in a way - I wonder if she might have some superhuman heritage too, with that kind of shooting skill.
Was the line about Marcone's "big dumb Einherjar bodyguard" a hint that Hendricks died and signed on with Monoc to stay in the game / stay with Gard? Or has Hendricks been replaced by an Einherjar? If he was referring to Hendricks at all, it's vaguely amusing that Grey makes the same mistake of underestimating him that Harry does.
Quote from: Yuillegan on October 08, 2019, 10:30:34 PM
That's a shame. I thought the Goodman Grey one was out soon and this was it.
But this looks like Harry just being unreasonably difficult to work with while interacting with Marcone.
Grey's POV isn't really that Harry-like, actually. He's closer to Marcone in Even Hand, trying to bury everything under a just-business veneer, but with the same avenging streak toward child abusers.
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Oh, yeah, weird ... at the time I was wondering if he'd died off screen since Changes, but that ended up being kind of on the nose. Except, apparently, Einherjar can't come back while those who remember them are still alive (*BAT exceptions may apply).
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Yes, I understood that you meant that at the moment, but now...wtf? I was wondering if JB intended eihenjaren to be able to go back if contracted and then he changed his mind.
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There are few options:
a) it was Hendricks and Marcone used sorcery to wipe memory of him from all the world
b) it was Hendricks and he was either mistaken or foreshadowed by intellectus as Einhernjar
c) it was some random Einhenjar on Marcone's payroll because Gard and Hendricks were took a week off to rest on Sri Lanka
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Yes, I understood that you meant that at the moment, but now...wtf? I was wondering if JB intended eihenjaren to be able to go back if contracted and then he changed his mind.
Hendricks only died in BG. Loosing his old friend makes the coin more dangerous for Marcone. Jim is isolating him from his old roots.
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WWW, I was thinjing something around a)! What if you could cheat with the memories?
If it is b, I want to know if Grey knew about Murph at PT.
c) is possible but very ooc
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Gard wouldn’t be that hurt if Hendricks had died earlier.
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Perhaps she did not know that they could manage something. Wouldn't be interesting if somehow (wibbly-wobbly, magically-wimey stuff) Hendricks was back in 12M, but only Marcone, Gard and Harry (because he is Harry :P) remembered him from his previous life?
Seriously, this is something that should be asked in a Q&A-
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Hendricks only died in BG. Loosing his old friend makes the coin more dangerous for Marcone. Jim is isolating him from his old roots.
We know he'll be around for a few more books at least, the Namshiel reveal was mentioned as something included early because Jim decided we'd been waiting long enough for some crumbs.
Perhaps she did not know that they could manage something. Wouldn't be interesting if somehow (wibbly-wobbly, magically-wimey stuff) Hendricks was back in 12M, but only Marcone, Gard and Harry (because he is Harry :P) remembered him from his previous life?
Seriously, this is something that should be asked in a Q&A-
There's a fair chance it won't get asked at all outside of an AMA, less people read the short stories, especially the ones that haven't been collected.
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I understand, I meant it should be asked in the future :)
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Bodyguard is both singular and plural, Hendricks is Marcone’s bodyguard, as are the small army of Einenjharen. In universe Grey has not met Hendricks, but would know about the Einejharen in general terms, which is I believe what is being referred to. Nothing complex or sinister.
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But it is weird that Hendricks is not with Marcone, right?
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But it is weird that Hendricks is not with Marcone, right?
Even mob boss's bodyguards are not around them all the time.
Why become criminal if not for chance of big gains and occassional vacations to use them :P
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Yeah, I don't know, perhaps you are right, but the story seems to stress the eihenjaren part way too much.
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But it is weird that Hendricks is not with Marcone, right?
Nathan was probably visiting his mother. Hendricks was also the one who could tell Marcone he was overstepping. I think Marcone suspected some of his people were involved and that Hendricks would have endorsed Grey’s solution instead of what Marcone wanted. This is perhaps an indication of Namshiel’s influence.
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I agree about the latter, Namshiel influence. If that is something really happening, Harry will catch it soon (thanks to soulgaze, he knows Marcone very well) and I bet Namshiel will regret it.
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Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him. And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.
I was looking for a reference to Marcone's past in Even Hand yesterday. While doing that I came across the following quote in Jim's forword.
In this story, we get to see a little bit of Marcone operating in his own world-a place considerably more grey and nebulous than the relatively clear-cut moral environment Harry Dresden has created with his choices. It is probably worth remembering that Marcone, despite some of the more vile things he presides over, would probably have been considered a rather decent sort of leader for the majority of recorded human history-he is, in fact, rather strongly modeled on the ideals of medieval barons, who, it seems to me, would have made surpassingly excellent and dangerous crime lords.
The reason I'm felt like this quote was appropriate here is all the statements in this thread tending in the direction that Marcone is an evil piece of human garbage. Jim sees him as more of a grey character. Definitely not a good guy, but also definitely not even close to the worst humanity has to offer.
Now, I'm sure carrying Namshiel for a truly long time would make Marcone even darker. But, realistically, he's already pretty bad. It could take Namshiel decades or centuries to get him to bend on 'no children', if he ever does. I think he's up to something more important than long-gaming a bad man into a worse one, and that something probably takes priority over changing Marcone unless he can get two birds with one stone.
Namshiel despises humanity as can be seen by his response to Harry's use of soulfire.
With Marcone being far from the worst humanity has to offer, and Namshiel's influence, I think Marcone can end up as something far worse than he is, regardless of any power Namshiel gives Marcone.
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I don't remember Namshiel reaction to Harry using soulfire :'(
Yes, Jim may see Marcone as grey, which probably happens to us too, I think the better part of Marcone is not his love for children but the fact that he would risk his own life to protect the city, as we seen in PT/BG. But I also think there is truth in his Even Hand statement about him being a monster. He has chosen to do evil things for the love of power. That is quite evil, right?
I also think he will be worse due to Namshiel but I still think that Harry will prevent him for losing his soul. I don't know if Marcone will survive the BAT, but I think his soul may be redeemed, of course, probably with the standard sacrificing for the greater good.
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Namshiel despises humanity as can be seen by his response to Harry's use of soulfire.
See, it's interesting, Namshiel seems to undergo something of a shift from SmF to BG. Not exactly less evil seeming, but a lot less screamingly overt about it.
Might be that his behaviour then was coloured by being angry that a young pup of a wizard crippled a host he'd spent a long time breaking in, thanks to Uriel's cheating. But I think it was being ditched by Tessa and Rosanna, and becoming more of an independent operator instead of a close subordinate of Tessa. I think he's started to wise up that there's an infected Denarian, and he's gone loner until he can identify who it is. Or he is the infected one, but I think Mab blaming him for the Arctis Tor raid might be a misdirect based on her getting wrong intel.
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In small favor he had a nameless host, there as no reason to play any role, he could say what he wanted.
Now he has a named host. Everything he says is not just meant for the guy he speaks to. It is also meant for Marcone. He plays a role. It is all a lie.
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In small favor he had a nameless host, there as no reason to play any role, he could say what he wanted.
Now he has a named host. Everything he says is not just meant for the guy he speaks to. It is also meant for Marcone. He plays a role. It is all a lie.
Yes, let us not forget, what Marcone said about "learning to think in the long term.." That has a bit of a ominous sound to it.
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Yes, very.
Because now he has the potential to live even longer than a wizard, and he has always been good at making plans.
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I don't remember Namshiel reaction to Harry using soulfire :'(
It was in the aquarium scene in SmF. Something along the lines of how dare a filthy monkey use our power. In just about every series I've seen with elder beings, calling humans monkeys or apes has been a sign of contempt for humans.
Yes, very.
Because now he has the potential to live even longer than a wizard, and he has always been good at making plans.
And this was always a complaint of mine regarding Harry's antagonism with Marcone. While totally in character for Harry, it was stupid. He could have used Marcone for the entirety of Marcone's natural life as a weapon against immortal evils. (Immortal like vampires, not the can't kill except on conjunction kind). Or he could have just waited him out. Now there's a reason that Harry will have to confront Marcone at some point.
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I think Harry was pretty much doing that. Not in purpose, but by concentrating in other threats and leaving Marcone pretty much alone, he was doing just what you said. Of course Marcone had to do something to change that but we will see how it works for him.
Also yes, as you said, "use" people would be out of character for Harry.
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Also yes, as you said, "use" people would be out of character for Harry.
I was more saying that not being antagonistic with Marcone every single time they interact would be out of character for Harry.
Using Marcone would be less out of character for Harry because he did use Marcone every 3-5 books. He just hated doing it, so it would be out of character for him to just do it to the extent I was talking about.
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Yes, I think I understood you meant that. I agree.
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I was more saying that not being antagonistic with Marcone every single time they interact would be out of character for Harry.
Using Marcone would be less out of character for Harry because he did use Marcone every 3-5 books. He just hated doing it, so it would be out of character for him to just do it to the extent I was talking about.
Marcone knows exactly what Harry is and what they think about each other. That is why they can use each other so effectively. They have soul gazed.
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Mostly agree. Marcone and Harry know exactly what the other is, due to the soulgaze. Marcone also knows what Harry thinks of him because Harry tells him so every Tuesday. But I don't think Harry knows what Marcone thinks of him. That is why us readers don't really know what Marcone thinks of him.
But yes, their knowledge of each other helps them to use each other.
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Mostly agree. Marcone and Harry know exactly what the other is, due to the soulgaze. Marcone also knows what Harry thinks of him because Harry tells him so every Tuesday. But I don't think Harry knows what Marcone thinks of him. That is why us readers don't really know what Marcone thinks of him.
But yes, their knowledge of each others helps them to use each other.
I think we were given some idea of what Marcone thinks of Harry in the earlier books. I just don't think Marcone fully understood what he was seeing, or if he did, he wasn't getting the whole picture.
I think early on he understood the kind of power Harry would wield, so he attempted to use him, cooperate somewhat with him so he could use him. Then about mid-way he realized that Harry isn't
the kind that could be used, so he tried different paths that helped him to get what he wanted from the supernatural world, the big prize for now being the coin of Namshiel.
You could be right that Harry doesn't understand what Marcone thinks of him, but Harry does understand Marcone, he is a full blown predator.
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I think we were given some idea of what Marcone thinks of Harry in the earlier books. I just don't think Marcone fully understood what he was seeing, or if he did, he wasn't getting the whole picture.
I think early on he understood the kind of power Harry would wield, so he attempted to use him, cooperate somewhat with him so he could use him. Then about mid-way he realized that Harry isn't
the kind that could be used, so he tried different paths that helped him to get what he wanted from the supernatural world, the big prize for now being the coin of Namshiel.
You could be right that Harry doesn't understand what Marcone thinks of him, but Harry does understand Marcone, he is a full blown predator.
Ignoring the times when he's done exactly that.
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Ignoring the times when he's done exactly that.
Jury Duty for example. And in this story he was quite sure he could have used Harry.
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Yes, they have used each other many times, but I think Mira meant that Marcone cannot just employ Harry.
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Jury Duty for example. And in this story he was quite sure he could have used Harry.
With the risk of somehow ending up at war with Canada of course.
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Mostly agree. Marcone and Harry know exactly what the other is, due to the soulgaze. Marcone also knows what Harry thinks of him because Harry tells him so every Tuesday. But I don't think Harry knows what Marcone thinks of him. That is why us readers don't really know what Marcone thinks of him.
Marcone might know Harry better than we do. Maybe even better than Harry knows himself. As Harry has repeatedly said, he's not big on introspection. I wouldn't be surprised if we knew Harry better than he knows himself.
Anyway, my initial point wasn't that Harry would ever properly use Marcone, just that he should have. He could have signed on with Marcone in Fool Moon. Harry didn't because he didn't want to be corrupted by Marcone, but what he failed to realize was his ability to corrupt Marcone and ability to basically not do what Marcone wanted him to. Most of what Marcone would have wanted Harry to do wouldn't have been covered by the contract he offered Harry.
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Marcone might know Harry better than we do. Maybe even better than Harry knows himself. As Harry has repeatedly said, he's not big on introspection. I wouldn't be surprised if we knew Harry better than he knows himself.
Anyway, my initial point wasn't that Harry would ever properly use Marcone, just that he should have. He could have signed on with Marcone in Fool Moon. Harry didn't because he didn't want to be corrupted by Marcone, but what he failed to realize was his ability to corrupt Marcone and ability to basically not do what Marcone wanted him to. Most of what Marcone would have wanted Harry to do wouldn't have been covered by the contract he offered Harry.
Yeah, but that was pre-Lash, plus she was a she, so Harry didn't know he could possibly change Marcone back. All Harry knew from the soul gaze was Marcone was someone he didn't want to work for, why? Marcone didn't seem disturbed by what he saw in Harry, at all.
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Yeah, but that was pre-Lash, plus she was a she, so Harry didn't know he could possibly change Marcone back.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here or what Lash being a she has to do with it.
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*confesses* I was wondering the same.