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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Dina on October 06, 2020, 07:27:39 AM
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Ok, I simply cannot understand the WC voting Harry out. I mean, when Ramirez told him about the voting, if I were in Harry's shoes I would have told them "that is bad. Because Mab always respects previous engagements. She won't ask me to betray the Council or to break the laws of magic, I am, after all, a Warden of the WC. But if I were not, I could be much more dangerous".
And after the battle...giving all that power to Mab without the restraining of a membership to the Council...is just dangerous. I don't get it.
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Just a thought: maybe Mab is not unhappy that Harry got booted out.
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I mean she did spend a whole year trapping him on the island for the sake of cutting off his other bonds.
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Just a thought: maybe Mab is not unhappy that Harry got booted out.
Yes, I totally see that. I don't see what the Council wins.
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Someone in another thread suggested that the WC might have done it as a way to try and leverage Harry surrendering the Eye of Balor as payment for getting back in. I could totally see that, but that's about the only thing that sort of makes sense to me.
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Actually from that point of view, the comments about submitting to a search and seizure by the wardens implies that they might use this as an excuse to steal anything of Harry's that the WC wants. Unfortunately if they were counting on that the WC is certain to be disappointed. Harry's position as Warden makes recovery of anything he wants to protect nearly impossible, and Harry's attitude means that he won't be submitting to the WC's authority.
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And from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like the castle will be that much less safe than the island. Sure the island has Alfred, but ward wise didn't Harry think the wards on the castle were similar to what he saw on the island? So I think just his regular stuff will be secure from the WC and for the really big stuff that he wants to be SUPER secure, he has the island.
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And from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like the castle will be that much less safe than the island. Sure the island has Alfred, but ward wise didn't Harry think the wards on the castle were similar to what he saw on the island? So I think just his regular stuff will be secure from the WC and for the really big stuff that he wants to be SUPER secure, he has the island.
Exactly, and if Harry tells Alfred, "they don't get in." They don't get in, I doubt that most of them even know what is on the island. Eb said as much in Peace Talks. Also with the addition of Maggie, if she lives at the castle when she isn't school, it is now a real home, which means it now has a very strong threshold. So the Wardens aren't going to easily enter uninvited, and if Harry is right about the wards, I'd think it be impossible.
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Exactly, and if Harry tells Alfred, "they don't get in." They don't get in, I doubt that most of them even know what is on the island. Eb said as much in Peace Talks. Also with the addition of Maggie, if she lives at the castle when she isn't school, it is now a real home, which means it now has a very strong threshold. So the Wardens aren't going to easily enter uninvited, and if Harry is right about the wards, I'd think it be impossible.
The gatekeeper knows but the island does not like him and he does not want to interfere with winter and the defense of reality anyway. As long as he thinks Mab has him under control the gatekeeper is not concerned.
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The gatekeeper knows but the island does not like him and he does not want to interfere with winter and the defense of reality anyway. As long as he thinks Mab has him under control the gatekeeper is not concerned.
Aside from Eb, I think Rashid is one of the few that knows the full implications of what the island is. I doubt even if he was allowed on the island that he'd go after Harry's new toys anyway. I think he has a good idea as to why Harry was allowed to get them. I was speaking of Carlos and Company, if Harry tells Alfred, "no admittance," they aren't getting on the island.
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Ok, I simply cannot understand the WC voting Harry out. I mean, when Ramirez told him about the voting, if I were in Harry's shoes I would have told them "that is bad. Because Mab always respects previous engagements. She won't ask me to betray the Council or to break the laws of magic, I am, after all, a Warden of the WC. But if I were not, I could be much more dangerous".
And after the battle...giving all that power to Mab without the restraining of a membership to the Council...is just dangerous. I don't get it.
This shouldn't be all that difficult to comprehend. The Council is corrupt and falling apart. As dangerous as Harry might be there are factions pulling in multiple directions. To do this they had to act when members of the Senior Council were sidelined to make it work. There are at least two cabals in motion. Jim is guiding us into a wizard civil war. Chicago is going to be the rally point for the rebellion.Aside from Eb, I think Rashid is one of the few that knows the full implications of what the island is. I doubt even if he was allowed on the island that he'd go after Harry's new toys anyway. I think he has a good idea as to why Harry was allowed to get them. I was speaking of Carlos and Company, if Harry tells Alfred, "no admittance," they aren't getting on the island.
He doesn't need to tell Alfred anything. It's a demon supermax. To Alfred your guilty if you come around, he just hasn't killed you yet.
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This shouldn't be all that difficult to comprehend. The Council is corrupt and falling apart. As dangerous as Harry might be there are factions pulling in multiple directions. To do this they had to act when members of the Senior Council were sidelined to make it work. There are at least two cabals in motion. Jim is guiding us into a wizard civil war. Chicago is going to be the rally point for the rebellion.He doesn't need to tell Alfred anything. It's a demon supermax. To Alfred your guilty if you come around, he just hasn't killed you yet.
Alfred can be remarkably restrained. In cold days he could have taken more action against Maeve and he did not. Mab thanked him for it.
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I don't really see the upside of pushing him out. I could see the Gatekeeper doing it because he thinks it's time for Harry to confront the Council.
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It could be because they’re trying to leverage the Blackstaff again. If Harry steps out of line they’ll order (re-order?) Eb to kill him, and if Eb refuses then the WC will exile or try to kill Eb, or something. Plus no future WC protection for Maggie when she eventually develops wizard powers. They’re not gonna be like “oh you’re Harry Dresden’s daughter? Well come right on in, we have doughnuts!”
Harry’s also been gaining reputational influence in the younger Wardens, and like every control-issues parent who has forbidden their teenager from seeing “that boy/girl ever again!”, they’re trying to cut Harry off from influencing the younger generation of wizards by painting him as a monster. Which, I mean, couldn’t possibly backfire.
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Harry’s also been gaining reputational influence in the younger Wardens, and like every control-issues parent who has forbidden their teenager from seeing “that boy/girl ever again!”, they’re trying to cut Harry off from influencing the younger generation of wizards by painting him as a monster. Which, I mean, couldn’t possibly backfire.
I can see this as a reason.
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Alfred can be remarkably restrained. In cold days he could have taken more action against Maeve and he did not. Mab thanked him for it.
Actually I don't think he could, unless she found the tunnel that led to the prison itself. He could make everyone feel uncomfortable, but he couldn't do anything that would reveal what was really there. Hey even the Denarians didn't seem to know what was really on the island in Small Favor. Heck if Harry had fully understood what he had done and what power that gave him on the island, Shaggy wouldn't have been able to do squat. As it was, though Harry suddenly was aware of everything, until Alfred taught him he wasn't aware of his control.
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It could be because they’re trying to leverage the Blackstaff again. If Harry steps out of line they’ll order (re-order?) Eb to kill him, and if Eb refuses then the WC will exile or try to kill Eb, or something.
This. Entirely this. Harry's just a pawn/excuse here in hardball politics by centuries-old wizards.
Carlos even told Harry -- "By unanimous vote, they have already given the Blackstaff the order to execute your death warrant, and suspended it. If you cross the line, they'll send him. And if he won't do it, he'll be charged with treason."
This is the Merlin's ultimate Sword of Damocles to hold over Eb's head -- passed by a "unanimous vote", while Eb and LtW were in the hospital and Rashid was at the Outer Gates.
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Someone in another thread suggested that the WC might have done it as a way to try and leverage Harry surrendering the Eye of Balor as payment for getting back in. I could totally see that, but that's about the only thing that sort of makes sense to me.
That was me.
Could also be about the Spear of Destiny, on reflection. And Harry didn't hide that he brought the Placard to Mac's.
The loa could have reported on all these things.
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Actually I don't think he could, unless she found the tunnel that led to the prison itself. He could make everyone feel uncomfortable, but he couldn't do anything that would reveal what was really there. Hey even the Denarians didn't seem to know what was really on the island in Small Favor. Heck if Harry had fully understood what he had done and what power that gave him on the island, Shaggy wouldn't have been able to do squat. As it was, though Harry suddenly was aware of everything, until Alfred taught him he wasn't aware of his control.
That was before Harry woke it up again.
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That was before Harry woke it up again.
He still couldn't act without orders. If he could, do you think he'd allow his new Warden to be in the kind of danger he was in when he fought Shaggy?
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He still couldn't act without orders. If he could, do you think he'd allow his new Warden to be in the kind of danger he was in when he fought Shaggy?
Apparently. Kringle specifically spoke about the island now shielding Harry from Anduriel spying because he awoke the island. During turn coat they did not know each other that well.
But the island could make deals with Mab and bonea. The island could take decisions about how to handle the ladies. I think it was not fully awake during turncoat. It has to develop skills for communicating with Harry as well.
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I think Harry giving it a name (Alfred) will be a big deal. It might have made him more... I don't know... real? Giving something a name seems to be really important in this series and Harry unknowingly is running around doing that all over the place.
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This is the Merlin's ultimate Sword of Damocles to hold over Eb's head -- passed by a "unanimous vote", while Eb and LtW were in the hospital and Rashid was at the Outer Gates.
This seems foolish. My brother finished the book this weekend, so we started talking about it. His big complaint is the conversation with Carlos. Harry's just not there for it, which I get. He's too drained to care too much. Anyway, my brother made the point that the Council has thrown away it's top two field soldiers. First Morgan and now Harry. And they're threatening to get rid of the Blackstaff?!? Like Eb's just going to accept it?
Kicking Harry out only really makes sense to me if elements in the Council are being stupid and other elements need Harry out so he can operate outside of the strictures of the Council.
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This seems foolish. My brother finished the book this weekend, so we started talking about it. His big complaint is the conversation with Carlos. Harry's just not there for it, which I get. He's too drained to care too much. Anyway, my brother made the point that the Council has thrown away it's top two field soldiers. First Morgan and now Harry. And they're threatening to get rid of the Blackstaff?!? Like Eb's just going to accept it?
Kicking Harry out only really makes sense to me if elements in the Council are being stupid and other elements need Harry out so he can operate outside of the strictures of the Council.
I think the theory is less that they want to throw away Eb, but want to put him in line. From what we've seen the Senior Council was originally divided into two Blocks; The Merlin, Mai, and La Fortier on one side and Simon, LTW, and Martha Liberty on the other, with Rashid largely away from things. Then Simon and La Fortier died and it became The Merlin and Mai on one side with Eb, LTW and Martha Liberty on the other, with Christos playing for power.
Essentially, The Merlin could be holding a death sentence over Harry's head to re-establish control over the Senior Council from Eb's Block. Politics.
Not sure I buy it though.
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I think Harry giving it a name (Alfred) will be a big deal. It might have made him more... I don't know... real? Giving something a name seems to be really important in this series and Harry unknowingly is running around doing that all over the place.
My pet theory is that starborn are walking conjunctions, giving them a limited ability to alter reality.
So, power over Outsiders because they can accept them "inside" and then hurt them. Power over Names, which lets them alter nature.
And Harry's big mouth, yes.
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I think we're overlooking Ramirez.
Sure, Harry has pull with young wizards, but he's also scary. But he had unscary friend young wizards. And if ALL the cool young wizards like him, can he be THAT bad as the Merlin wants you to think?
Ah, but then BG (and cold case) happened. Suddenly Harry is annoying Ramirez at every turn (hanging with 'ooh the virgin snack' Raith, 'I kicked you to a pulp' Carpenter, and to boot messing with his cloak for no good reason), and then all his friends died. Ramirez, too, is utterly beaten up and angry at Harry and his friends.
So now the Merlin can make his powerplay without annoying the 'cool kids' too much. They'll still swing mostly back around because, well, Harry IS on the right side (mostly, see getting burned by Butters) - but for now there was bad blood, and a political animal like the Merlin smelled it.
And if Harry had accepted their ridiculous terms... well then he wouldn't be more unconstrained than he was as a Warden, either. Being able to make Harry Dresden do your bidding would've done plenty to offset not having Harry Dresden around to come kick them.
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I definitely think Harry did not handle things with Ramirez well. He could have told him things, like "Please, Carlos. I have my reasons and they are not Mab related. Please, trust me" and simply, not lying to him. It is much better to say "I can't tell you" than to tell a lie. And I was very angry when Ramirez told him that he shouldn't have be with Mab, he should have told him "I did it for my daughter, what choice did I have?" or something like that.
I also understand Ramirez being wary of Mab, but precisely with Harry having previous commitments to the Council, Mab would respect them. Firing Harry frees Mab.
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Yeah, Harry was a total moron with Carlos in PT.
Carlos: "Bro, are you fucking the evil vampire queen"
Harry: "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, how dare you ask me about my personal life you asshole"
Like jesus dude, are you fucking trying to make him think that you are enthralled???
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Yeah, Harry was a total moron with Carlos in PT.
Carlos: "Bro, are you fucking the evil vampire queen"
Harry: "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, how dare you ask me about my personal life you asshole"
Like jesus dude, are you fucking trying to make him think that you are enthralled???
At the same time, I feel like the Wardens had already convinced themselves that he was, so whatever he'd say would be either ignored or construed as deception. I don't disagree that he should have said, flat-out, "No. Hell no." but I'm not sure they would have believed him at all...
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This seems foolish. My brother finished the book this weekend, so we started talking about it. His big complaint is the conversation with Carlos. Harry's just not there for it, which I get. He's too drained to care too much. Anyway, my brother made the point that the Council has thrown away it's top two field soldiers. First Morgan and now Harry. And they're threatening to get rid of the Blackstaff?!? Like Eb's just going to accept it?
Kicking Harry out only really makes sense to me if elements in the Council are being stupid and other elements need Harry out so he can operate outside of the strictures of the Council.
I think that is a key point. Someone's goal is to fracture the Council. What do you do? Set up a disruptive mole.(Peabody) Eliminate one of it's staunch supporters. (Morgan) Have people question the actions of fringe elements.(Harry) Divide up key personnel. (Grey Council)
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But the island could make deals with Mab and bonea. The island could take decisions about how to handle the ladies. I think it was not fully awake during turncoat. It has to develop skills for communicating with Harry as well.
Remember in Cold Days this is was the main reason why Harry "borrowed" Bob from Butters, he needed Bob to translate what Alfred was trying to tell him about how the place functioned. Bob had to "dumb" down a lot of instructions for Harry.
As far as deals with Mab and Bonea, they were pretty basic, shelter Harry and keep him alive until Uriel was done teaching his lesson. Alfred didn't want to lose his new caretaker. page 474
Ghost Story, Alfred explains.
OUR INTERESTS COINCIDED.
At the same time, I feel like the Wardens had already convinced themselves that he was, so whatever he'd say would be either ignored or construed as deception. I don't disagree that he should have said, flat-out, "No. Hell no." but I'm not sure they would have believed him at all...
Yeah, I don't think it would have made any difference whether or not he admitted to having sex with Murphy. The Wardens were implying that he was having sex with Lara, which he wasn't. Harry is a gentleman, he doesn't kiss and tell, and he isn't going to reveal his sex partner if it had nothing to do with the situation at hand. At that point he really didn't know a heck of a lot more than the Wardens did, except who Thomas is, and that might have only made things worse.
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I think the theory is less that they want to throw away Eb, but want to put him in line. From what we've seen the Senior Council was originally divided into two Blocks; The Merlin, Mai, and La Fortier on one side and Simon, LTW, and Martha Liberty on the other, with Rashid largely away from things. Then Simon and La Fortier died and it became The Merlin and Mai on one side with Eb, LTW and Martha Liberty on the other, with Christos playing for power.
Essentially, The Merlin could be holding a death sentence over Harry's head to re-establish control over the Senior Council from Eb's Block. Politics.
Not sure I buy it though.
I don't see how that works. The next time the full Senior Council is in session, Eb can just undo it, unless the Gatekeeper was part of the unanimous vote.
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I feel like there may be a play going on.
They might genuinely believe Harry is compromised so by not associating with Dresden , if he does anything to piss off the other signatories they not liable for what he does.
Or Maybe someone blackmailed the Merlin. Mab might have pee tapes of the Merlin or something 🤣
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Icecream!!! Long time no seeing you! How are you doing? (((((IC)))))
My problem is what "compromised" means. If they mean that Mab could use him for things they don't want...well, expelling him allows her to do exactly that.
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Yeah, Harry was a total moron with Carlos in PT.
Carlos: "Bro, are you fucking the evil vampire queen"
Harry: "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, how dare you ask me about my personal life you asshole"
Like jesus dude, are you fucking trying to make him think that you are enthralled???
And then, to rescue Thomas, they make everyone believe that...he was fucking the evil vampire queen. And then, the next time Carlos says "you lied to us" he plays offended.
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This. Entirely this. Harry's just a pawn/excuse here in hardball politics by centuries-old wizards.
Carlos even told Harry -- "By unanimous vote, they have already given the Blackstaff the order to execute your death warrant, and suspended it. If you cross the line, they'll send him. And if he won't do it, he'll be charged with treason."
This is the Merlin's ultimate Sword of Damocles to hold over Eb's head -- passed by a "unanimous vote", while Eb and LtW were in the hospital and Rashid was at the Outer Gates.
Unanimous vote would in this case be The Merlin, Ancient Mai and Martha Liberty (the latter having just had the shit scared out of her by Harry and the Za Lords Guard) Martha didn’t see anything of Harry in Battle, and the other two have always been against Harry.
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Uh, what about Christos?
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Martha Liberty was on the rooftop chatting with Loa when Harry called the 'Za guard. A hundred thousand pixies answered his call and went to war. Remember that he killed a Queen of Summer with only a dozen of them (and the Senior Council would have been fully briefed on that, since it was his probation test). The efforts the assembled powers had been taking to try and counter the invisible-assassin-squids (who really need a cool name) were far more complicated and far less effective than what Harry whipped up with a minute of *silent* spellcasting and a piece of frozen pizza.
Mab told him: "An impressive display. You frightened several very confident beings tonight. I found it entertaining."
I think that's the moment when Harry lost Martha Liberty's vote.
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Perhaps you are right, clintACK. Incidentally, I loved that quote of Mab and I really wanted to know who were those "very confident" beings. I think she may have been talking about some of her own people too, as well as Summer. But who else? The ghouls?
To be honest, they have every reason to be afraid. Harry not only is a starborn, the Winter Knight, the Warden, and a powerful wizard on his own right, he also has friends. From werewolves to River Shoulders, from KotC to the wee folk. And they don't even know that Lara needs him alive.
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Uh, what about Christos?
Death by Titan, Eb and LTW we’re both in surgery. The original plan was to put it to the full White Council, because it would have been 4-3 against the Merlin. But with the GateKeeper absent (at the Gate during the attack) and Eb and LTW unconscious, the Merlin was able to sway a frightened Martha Liberty, the supporter Harry knew least. I wonder if Harry was wining the Full Council vote.
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Do we even know if Marth Liberty is alive? We last saw her at the castle. Someone later says they think no ones left at the castle and the radio's just on a loop.
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Trying to be Eb in line has some serious issues I doubt the senior council has considered or even knows. First off, Eb may side with Harry rather than just refuse to kill him. They already know he has some fondness and had protected him even if they don't know the full relationship. Second, Harry just got the best of Eb. The recent bout should show that Harry isn't just winning by luck. Worse, since he knows that Harry was just creating a diversion, Eb can't even be certain that Harry showcased what he can do if he really wants to throw down. Last, asking Eb to kill his apprentice sound bad. Leveling a death sentence against a senior council member for not wanting to kill sound even worse. While Eb being the blackstaff may be a poorly kept secret it's not general knowlege. Just how would the Merlin sell this to the general assembly without it sounding like "yea, we kill anyone that votes against us."
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We learned from Proven Guilty that the Senior Council voting system gives the Merlin a proxy for any Senior Council member not present for the vote.
Listens to Wind and McCoy would never vote against Harry. LtW just cut a deal with Harry to give him some answers (in a year); McCoy ... the last thing he wants is for Harry to be isolated from the Council.
So, Merlin acts when LtW and McCoy are out. Doubtlessly Rashid is also away -- there was a massive attack at the Gates and time between the Gates run differently.
What this means, I suppose, is that Martha Liberty turned against Dresden as well. She was the most on the fence about Dresden of his "supporters."
Merlin probably knows the deal between Harry and McCoy (or strongly suspects). Doubtlessly, he sees this as a two-fer. He can control Dresden and McCoy with the suspended sentence.
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Martha Liberty was on the rooftop chatting with Loa when Harry called the 'Za guard. A hundred thousand pixies answered his call and went to war. Remember that he killed a Queen of Summer with only a dozen of them (and the Senior Council would have been fully briefed on that, since it was his probation test). The efforts the assembled powers had been taking to try and counter the invisible-assassin-squids (who really need a cool name) were far more complicated and far less effective than what Harry whipped up with a minute of *silent* spellcasting and a piece of frozen pizza.
Mab told him: "An impressive display. You frightened several very confident beings tonight. I found it entertaining."
I think that's the moment when Harry lost Martha Liberty's vote.
Yeah, well, sometimes simple is best, so is lack of prejudice and a good reward for a job well done.
Everyone underestimates the Pixies, because they are small, cute, and pig out on pizza. Maybe they are the "Hobbits" of the series and Harry is their Gandalf? Harry has always appreciated them, used them for important tasks and rewarded handsomely their deeds, oh, and also freed many of them from enslavement by the Raiths, thus won their loyalty. I bet the one wizard not freaked out by this was Listens to Wind. He was there when Toot took on Shaggy to save Harry on Demonreach.
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I think Harry getting booted out of the WC and the wardens was part of Nemesis' plan to weaken Harry. Mai and maybe Christos have been corrupted by N. I think Carlos was also infected. Why else would he turn on Harry that way. He believed in Harry and trusted him. He knew Harry had a dangerous side from that time at Camp Kaboom. Why would anything Harry has done since change his mind? Especially after the talk they had at the end of WK.
I'm beginning to think Harry being Starborn gives Harry some protection against the Ninfection. What about Drakul you say? Drakul was just acting in self interest not corrupted or fighting for a cause.
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I think Harry getting booted out of the WC and the wardens was part of Nemesis' plan to weaken Harry. Mai and maybe Christos have been corrupted by N. I think Carlos was also infected. Why else would he turn on Harry that way. He believed in Harry and trusted him. He knew Harry had a dangerous side from that time at Camp Kaboom. Why would anything Harry has done since change his mind? Especially after the talk they had at the end of WK.
I'm beginning to think Harry being Starborn gives Harry some protection against the Ninfection. What about Drakul you say? Drakul was just acting in self interest not corrupted or fighting for a cause.
I have been thinking the same thing. Carlos sounded too weird when he told Harry he was no longer part of the Council.
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I think Harry getting booted out of the WC and the wardens was part of Nemesis' plan to weaken Harry. Mai and maybe Christos have been corrupted by N. I think Carlos was also infected. Why else would he turn on Harry that way. He believed in Harry and trusted him. He knew Harry had a dangerous side from that time at Camp Kaboom. Why would anything Harry has done since change his mind? Especially after the talk they had at the end of WK.
I'm beginning to think Harry being Starborn gives Harry some protection against the Ninfection. What about Drakul you say? Drakul was just acting in self interest not corrupted or fighting for a cause.
That's another reason to be worried. He knows that Harry going evil was a distinct possibility before he signed up with Mab for unknown reasons (he was in a cell at this time) and took a job with a history or turning the people who take it into monsters and started shacking up with the White Court.
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Yeah, I don't see anything weird about how Ramirez has been acting. He hasn't seen Harry in a couple years (ever since he signed on with Mab). He's been watching Harry act super-shady, hanging around Lara and get super cagey when asked why, to the point where he straight-up threatens to get violent when he and the other young wardens ask him to do something as reasonable as confirm that he wasn't fucking the mind-controlling vampire.
Then latter on, he does attack him. Harry has reasons sure (he's protecting Thomas) but to anyone without that information, Harry looks exactly like a White Court thrall.
About the only thing he could have done that would make him look worse to the White Council is if he'd started wearing Black Robes everywhere and introducing himself as "Darth Kemmler 2.0"
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I agree with you. I've been wondering one thing, though.
Could a mind controlled victim of the rampires gather the will to imprison a Titan (even if she was weakened)?
The part I've found weird about Ramirez in the end was his demeanor, quite aggressive (would you be aggresive around Harry if you thought he has gone dark side?) and not even saying sorry about Murph. I mean, not everyone knew Harry and Murphy were an item, but they were good friends, that was known.
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I agree with you. I've been wondering one thing, though.
Could a mind controlled victim of the rampires gather the will to imprison a Titan (even if she was weakened)?
The part I've found weird about Ramirez in the end was his demeanor, quite aggressive (would you be aggresive around Harry if you thought he has gone dark side?) and not even saying sorry about Murph. I mean, not everyone knew Harry and Murphy were an item, but they were good friends, that was known.
Ramirez probably did not even know.
The problem with first person POV is that if we want to look at someone else’s motivation we have to reconstruct his point of view. Forget all we know about what Harry tells himself and only look at what Ramirez sees.
Harry never did that with Ramirez but if you do his actions become somewhat more understandable.
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Totally true, they need to be together for a beer on Mac's. That way, Ramirez would probably know what Harry did for everyone there and they would be able to talk feelings. If Harry tells R. that he is sad and angry because he loved Murph, he lost her and he is forced to marry Lara, Ramirez will probably sympathize with him.
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The part I've found weird about Ramirez in the end was his demeanor, quite aggressive (would you be aggresive around Harry if you thought he has gone dark side?) and not even saying sorry about Murph. I mean, not everyone knew Harry and Murphy were an item, but they were good friends, that was known.
Aggressive is standard Warden operating procedure for suspected first-law Warlocks. See: Morgan and Harry, from book one. It's a test. Harry passed.
But Ramirez is also quite reasonably feeling hurt and betrayed.
Yes, Carlos didn't say anything about Murphy, but then Harry didn't apologize for humiliating Carlos in front of the Accorded nations, either. Carlos still has scars -- not from the Fomor, but from Harry choking him with his own cloak.
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I agree with you. I've been wondering one thing, though.
Could a mind controlled victim of the rampires gather the will to imprison a Titan (even if she was weakened)?
The part I've found weird about Ramirez in the end was his demeanor, quite aggressive (would you be aggresive around Harry if you thought he has gone dark side?) and not even saying sorry about Murph. I mean, not everyone knew Harry and Murphy were an item, but they were good friends, that was known.
I agree, when I said it seemed weird, that is what I meant.
Yes, Carlos didn't say anything about Murphy, but then Harry didn't apologize for humiliating Carlos in front of the Accorded nations, either. Carlos still has scars -- not from the Fomor, but from Harry choking him with his own cloak.
Tit for tat doesn't help anything does it? Harry did feel bad, he said as much, but he didn't say anything. But blaming Harry for the deaths etc? Not only was it untrue, but it was a extremely low blow.
But Ramirez is also quite reasonably feeling hurt and betrayed.
Well, that makes two of them, doesn't it?
Totally true, they need to be together for a beer on Mac's. That way, Ramirez would probably know what Harry did for everyone there and they would be able to talk feelings. If Harry tells R. that he is sad and angry because he loved Murph, he lost her and he is forced to marry Lara, Ramirez will probably sympathize with him.
Yes, but is it possible now? At the time there was no time.. An Harry knew that anything he said, would and could be used against him. How would it go down when they found out he was related to the assassin? Don't you think it odd that in the end they accuse him of breaking the law for killing Turtlenecks with magic? So it is a trumped up charge, then they sentence him to death by the Blackstaff, then they suspend the sentence.. No, they wanted Harry out, while at least two members who'd advocate for him in surgery, they boot him out.
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Ramirez is getting crabby about harry playing things close to the chest but so does everyone else... If he'd talked to Harry about Molly and why he was so upset at Harry it might have opened up about some of his business at least.
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Ramirez is getting crabby about harry playing things close to the chest but so does everyone else... If he'd talked to Harry about Molly and why he was so upset at Harry it might have opened up about some of his business at least.
Did Harry visit Carlos at any point in Carlos's recovery? Harry has been very busy and confined for a year at the island but people make time for things that are important to them. Why not a quick lunch at Mac's? Why not a conversation with Molly for that matter? Has he talked about keeping the Mantel at bay with her at all?
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Ramirez is getting crabby about harry playing things close to the chest but so does everyone else... If he'd talked to Harry about Molly and why he was so upset at Harry it might have opened up about some of his business at least.
Harry knew about what had happened to Carlos.
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Harry knew about what had happened to Carlos.
Harry knew about the chupacabra, he did not know Molly attacked him or why.
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I agree, when I said it seemed weird, that is what I meant.
Tit for tat doesn't help anything does it? Harry did feel bad, he said as much, but he didn't say anything. But blaming Harry for the deaths etc? Not only was it untrue, but it was a extremely low blow.
Well, that makes two of them, doesn't it?
Yes, but is it possible now? At the time there was no time.. An Harry knew that anything he said, would and could be used against him. How would it go down when they found out he was related to the assassin? Don't you think it odd that in the end they accuse him of breaking the law for killing Turtlenecks with magic? So it is a trumped up charge, then they sentence him to death by the Blackstaff, then they suspend the sentence.. No, they wanted Harry out, while at least two members who'd advocate for him in surgery, they boot him out.
Oh, I agree, the part about blaming Harry for the deaths was awful (and got me personally angry at Ramirez). And about killing humans...I am pretty sure the other wizards killed Fomor related humans too. It was too chaotic.
I see no reason why they can't met at Mac's. It is neutral, so Ramirez doesn't need to be afraid (it is also designed to cut magic).
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Did Harry visit Carlos at any point in Carlos's recovery? Harry has been very busy and confined for a year at the island but people make time for things that are important to them. Why not a quick lunch at Mac's? Why not a conversation with Molly for that matter? Has he talked about keeping the Mantel at bay with her at all?
We have no clue one way or the other. Where did Carlos do his recovering? Would Carlos even level with Harry or anyone else as to how he got hurt? It may have been a huge blow to his pride that he got so beat up trying to have sex with the Winter Lady..
I see no reason why they can't met at Mac's. It is neutral, so Ramirez doesn't need to be afraid (it is also designed to cut magic).
I can't either, except for one thing, both have to want to.
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Harry knew about the chupacabra, he did not know Molly attacked him or why.
Yeah, that's how I read it as well. If you read their interactions as Carlos thinking Harry knows that Molly went gonzo on him due to the Mantle, and Harry not actually knowing about that, it sheds a lot of light on why Carlos is frustrated at him because it does seem like Dresden is threatening him and being an utter dick about it to boot...
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Yeah, that's how I read it as well. If you read their interactions as Carlos thinking Harry knows that Molly went gonzo on him due to the Mantle, and Harry not actually knowing about that, it sheds a lot of light on why Carlos is frustrated at him because it does seem like Dresden is threatening him and being an utter dick about it to boot...
And he is still a virgin. That makes him even more sensitive.
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If Carlos was in an hospital, probably no visits. His own murphyonic field does not need to be reinforced by Harry. It's not a good idea to have 2 wizards in the same hospital. And I don't think Harry has being in Carlos' place ever.
I can't either, except for one thing, both have to want to.
I can see Harry in Mac's quite often, doing things with people to prepare (like Marcone did). So if Carlos decided to give it a try, he could. Or it could be destiny, that they meet by chance there. Anyway, I am not saying it will happen but that it should happen.
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It would be nice, but I can't see it happening any time soon.
Harry is too pissed at Carlos for being suspicious of his blatantly suspicious behavior.
Carlos is too pissed at Harry for being a cagey, agressive asshole at him.
Harry burned his bridges there pretty badly. It'll be a while before they can reconcile, if they ever do.
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It would be nice, but I can't see it happening any time soon.
Harry is too pissed at Carlos for being suspicious of his blatantly suspicious behavior.
Carlos is too pissed at Harry for being a cagey, agressive asshole at him.
Harry burned his bridges there pretty badly. It'll be a while before they can reconcile, if they ever do.
Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if Carlos was the friend that stabbed him in the back. I also think what Harry pulled at the Peace Talks did the most damage. For two reasons, Carlos was trusting Harry to have his back, and it was a major embarrassment for Carlos. The latter I think did the most damage to their relationship, not Harry not leveling with him.
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Just how would the Merlin sell this to the general assembly without it sounding like "yea, we kill anyone that votes against us."
I agree with everything you said, but I literally laughed out loud for this one.
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Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if Carlos was the friend that stabbed him in the back. I also think what Harry pulled at the Peace Talks did the most damage. For two reasons, Carlos was trusting Harry to have his back, and it was a major embarrassment for Carlos. The latter I think did the most damage to their relationship, not Harry not leveling with him.
The thing at the peace talks also left scars and probably had a very real chance of putting Carlos back in a wheelchair on top of hurting like hell.
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But Harry helped him survive the encounter with Drakul and his bunch, which is one of the reasons why blaming Harry for so many deaths irks me so much.
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But Harry helped him survive the encounter with Drakul and his bunch, which is one of the reasons why blaming Harry for so many deaths irks me so much.
He did, but Carlos is a proud man, he may be even just a bit jealous. Harry admits that Carlos is better at many forms of magic than he is. Here's Carlos, yes, his body will heal, he is a wizard, but for the most part for now at any rate, he is pretty much stuck in a thankless job. Yeah, he might be the North American Commander, but Luccio holds the strings. Then there is Harry who seems to be the hero at almost every turn, and to add insult to injury he skipped a grade when he became a full wizard at 16. So while Harry and Carlos seemed to be friends, if you scratched the surface, Carlos also has a lot to resent as far as Harry goes.
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Would Carlos even level with Harry or anyone else as to how he got hurt? It may have been a huge blow to his pride that he got so beat up trying to have sex with the Winter Lady..
Yeah, probably not close enough friends to share that one. Another thing is that he didn't just get beat up, seemed like Mab kept him stable so he didn't die while the Council sent help. Goes way past being beat up. Getting almost killed trying to shop lift some booty off the Winter Lady while on assignment will not play well in any office.
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Yeah, probably not close enough friends to share that one. Another thing is that he didn't just get beat up, seemed like Mab kept him stable so he didn't die while the Council sent help. Goes way past being beat up. Getting almost killed trying to shop lift some booty off the Winter Lady while on assignment will not play well in any office.
Yup, humiliation from the Winter Court on top of his serious injuries, then what Harry did to him at the Peace talks, more humiliation handed to him from a rep of the Winter Court.
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Yup, humiliation from the Winter Court on top of his serious injuries, then what Harry did to him at the Peace talks, more humiliation handed to him from a rep of the Winter Court.
Can you imagine how that conversation went at the ... ahem ... debriefing with the Senior Council? " You tried to do what?!??!!? With who???? You mean the CONVICTED warlock, neuromancy to boot, turned Fae!!!?? Next time stick it in a light socket and flip the switch !!"
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But Harry helped him survive the encounter with Drakul and his bunch, which is one of the reasons why blaming Harry for so many deaths irks me so much.
Not actively screwing over your allies in a fight is kind of a minimum requirement rather than something to be lauded.
Yeah, probably not close enough friends to share that one. Another thing is that he didn't just get beat up, seemed like Mab kept him stable so he didn't die while the Council sent help. Goes way past being beat up. Getting almost killed trying to shop lift some booty off the Winter Lady while on assignment will not play well in any office.
It was after assignment and she'd been flirting with him while he had zero idea that she was fae and thought she was still Harry's apprentice.
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Not actively screwing over your allies in a fight is kind of a minimum requirement rather than something to be lauded.It was after assignment and she'd been flirting with him while he had zero idea that she was fae and thought she was still Harry's apprentice.
He knew she was the winter lady. They both had no idea what that meant
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It was after assignment and she'd been flirting with him while he had zero idea that she was fae and thought she was still Harry's apprentice.
In general, the assignment ends when you are off site. Of course Mab would present the incident as such to the Council and/or the Council (who convicted Harry of murder and sentenced him to death in Star Chamberesk fashion) would take it on Carlos' word. Especially given Molly is a warlock and the Council love Harry so much.
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He knew she was the winter lady. They both had no idea what that meant
To be fair, apparently Molly didn't either and Mab didn't teach her that important little fact. Otherwise I cannot see Molly deliberately hurt Carlos, nor tying to pleasure herself if there was any chance that Carlos or any other mortal would get hurt. Here is a thought though as to why Mab said nothing. Mab most likely is aware that there is a degree of attraction between Molly and Harry. So was this not the perfect object lesson for her Winter Lady without risking the health and safety of her Knight?
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To be fair, apparently Molly didn't either and Mab didn't teach her that important little fact. Otherwise I cannot see Molly deliberately hurt Carlos, nor tying to pleasure herself if there was any chance that Carlos or any other mortal would get hurt. Here is a thought though as to why Mab said nothing. Mab most likely is aware that there is a degree of attraction between Molly and Harry. So was this not the perfect object lesson for her Winter Lady without risking the health and safety of her Knight?
Yes, both