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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: magnuskn on October 01, 2020, 12:22:48 PM
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So, yeah. Down goes Murphy. I am less than happy, although it was predicted, even by myself. At least she brought down a giant before having to go. I would have liked her to stay at least another book, to give Harry at least a full year of a blissful relationship.
She has not come back as a Valkyrie (yet...), but she was taken to Valhalla to be an Einherjarn (despite being catholic and noticeably so in this book). So, that point of objection to her not coming back as a supernatural being is pretty much kaputt.
I personally don't believe that she is really out of the series yet, since Jim doesn't like to discard characters that easily. IMHO, she'll be back, maybe next book, maybe in a few, as an "exception to the rule" (because fictional rules are made to be broken) and either as a straight Valkyrie or as an Einherjarn.
Otherwise than Murphy dying, the book was overall really good and enjoyable and felt much more as a "full book" than Peace Talks did. I think the only real points of objection I have are that Harry didn't have a private talk with Ivy (he can be forgiven, due to having his hands full with a demi-god, but still, man... you haven't really talked to her for years. At least introduce her to Maggy) and that we didn't get a scene of Langtry talking with Harry and having to deal with Harry being the Winter Knight, the Warden of Demonreach, etc.. The White Council is a bunch of dumbasses and Harry really probably is better off without them. I'm very much looking forward to what comes next.
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I doubt Murphy would come back anytime soon. Fictional rules indeed are made to be broken and JB is not known to just scrap a Character like Murphy so easily, but I doubt JB would break a new establish fictional rule so quickly either. So I suspect if Murphy is goint to come back, it requires some time, which is why I mentioned before that if the DF series is long enough or if there is a spin off which take place in future timeline or if there is a time skip in the series, Murphy could come back again.
Another possibility, Harry could meet Murphy in the NN. Murphy can't come back to the mortal world, but there is so many place out there in the NN and there is also other universes. Murphy can't come back here, but she could go somewhere else and Harry could go to that place as well.
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Yeah, I don't think Jim would have had Gard specifically say "No, can't be done," if Murphy was coming back as a mainstay. She'll probably make an appearance in MM to torment Harry a bit though, so that should be neat.
Not sure what would be worse for Harry though- finding out that MM!Murphy's life is actually better because she's not so associated with him, or having it be worse because the world's going to crap and she's gone all "hard woman making hard decisions while hard" à la Ghost Story Murph.
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Actually I am a bit sorry she was taken to Valhalla, not that she doesn't deserve to go there, but I'd rather she went to work with her father and Uriel. She had issues with her father, which she laments in Peace Talks and never got to resolve because he took his own life before they were able to. Then
perhaps Harry could get word via Uriel, as much as he will say anyway, that she is happy doing what she is doing, giving Harry some peace.
No, I don't think Murphy is coming back. Gard was very clear on that, as in "even the Allfather" cannot over rule that.
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You are far too pessimistic. Harry won't stay mortal and after half a decade or so all mortals who knew her are either dead or immortal. That includes Eb and Ramirez.
So Harry visits Odin and they make a deal after the Apocalypse and the whole story ends with a huge living together happy ever after. For a very long time. ;D
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Or the rules change for the Apocalypse, and all cards are on the table, including quarantined einherjarn. Then she's back for the BAT, riding in top save the day on a winged motorcycle or something.
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I doubt Murphy would come back anytime soon. Fictional rules indeed are made to be broken and JB is not known to just scrap a Character like Murphy so easily, but I doubt JB would break a new establish fictional rule so quickly either. So I suspect if Murphy is goint to come back, it requires some time, which is why I mentioned before that if the DF series is long enough or if there is a spin off which take place in future timeline or if there is a time skip in the series, Murphy could come back again.
Another possibility, Harry could meet Murphy in the NN. Murphy can't come back to the mortal world, but there is so many place out there in the NN and there is also other universes. Murphy can't come back here, but she could go somewhere else and Harry could go to that place as well.
Yeah, Harry going to Valhalla to meet Murphy would seem to be a thing he'd do. I think it depends if Jim wants to continue to Murphy / Harry relationship. Methinks he probably wants to maximise Harry's suffering for entertainment purposes, so if there is a continuance by Harry and Murphy being able to meet somehow, it will be a very inconvenient way for them both.
But I think it is pretty clear that if he had wanted her gone, she would have gone to the catholic afterlife, not Odin's realm.
Actually I am a bit sorry she was taken to Valhalla, not that she doesn't deserve to go there, but I'd rather she went to work with her father and Uriel. She had issues with her father, which she laments in Peace Talks and never got to resolve because he took his own life before they were able to. Then perhaps Harry could get word via Uriel, as much as he will say anyway, that she is happy doing what she is doing, giving Harry some peace.
Murphy's dad was in the "in-between" because he couldn't move on. I would think Murphy's first mission there would be to make her dad go on into the true afterlife, afterwards she'd be gone as well.
No, I don't think Murphy is coming back. Gard was very clear on that, as in "even the Allfather" cannot over rule that.
Meh. I think that was specifically mentioned to be a rule that will be broken.
Or the rules change for the Apocalypse, and all cards are on the table, including quarantined einherjarn. Then she's back for the BAT, riding in top save the day on a winged motorcycle or something.
I think I'd prefer a winged horse in classical fashion, but otherwise this sounds pretty plausible, too.
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I think I'd prefer a winged horse in classical fashion, but otherwise this sounds pretty plausible, too.
Okay, fine. But the horse has to be named Harley.
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Svangal (or was it Svangr?)
Anywhere, let her ride the Jotun and refer to it as "Backup"
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Or the rules change for the Apocalypse, and all cards are on the table, including quarantined einherjarn. Then she's back for the BAT, riding in top save the day on a winged motorcycle or something.
No rules change: the einherjarn are specifically gathered for Ragnarok, so Murphy has to come off the bench when that happens.
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Harry really needs to arrange conjugal visits in Valhalla, which will be in the NeverNever, the problem is though that the connecting point from the mortal world is probably one of the Great War war cemeteries or perhaps Arlington. If he can get into Hades realm, Harry can get into Valhalla.
But long distance relationships are hell, after all. It would be worthwhile just to see Karrin have a long and heated diatribe about the food and drink “Nothing but red meat and mead, I would kill for a nice chicken salad and a nice bottle of Chardonnay”, the company “Nothing but big, farting, hairy men, honestly if it wasn’t for Hendricks I wouldn’t be able to have a decent conversation with anyone” The company’s attitudes “They all believe a woman’s place is in the home, and my knee is sore from constantly reminding them it isn’t” on reassignment “I asked whether I could be a Valkyrie, but apparently the only steed available in my size is a goofy pink winged pony, with I swear a cutie mark”, on the boss “he asked whether I would call him daddy, so I called him a son of a bitch, and he just laughed.” On Harry’s impending nuptials “well that’s Lara totally screwed, pity, I was just starting to like her.” On Marcone picking up a coin “so Namshiel is MORE evil now?”
Regarding the Great War, I wonder if in the Dresdenverse the Angels Of Mons legends were in fact Gard and her sisters, it would make sense.
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Harry really needs to arrange conjugal visits in Valhalla, which will be in the NeverNever, the problem is though that the connecting point from the mortal world is probably one of the Great War war cemeteries or perhaps Arlington. If he can get into Hades realm, Harry can get into Valhalla.
I don't think that will be so easy, Valhalla is the hall for the dead warriors, I don't think the living are allowed there. Where as though Hades is the realm of the dead there is precedent for mortals, okay, a few heroes, visiting his Halls and returning successfully.
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Harry really needs to arrange conjugal visits in Valhalla, which will be in the NeverNever, the problem is though that the connecting point from the mortal world is probably one of the Great War war cemeteries or perhaps Arlington. If he can get into Hades realm, Harry can get into Valhalla.
But long distance relationships are hell, after all. It would be worthwhile just to see Karrin have a long and heated diatribe about the food and drink “Nothing but red meat and mead, I would kill for a nice chicken salad and a nice bottle of Chardonnay”, the company “Nothing but big, farting, hairy men, honestly if it wasn’t for Hendricks I wouldn’t be able to have a decent conversation with anyone” The company’s attitudes “They all believe a woman’s place is in the home, and my knee is sore from constantly reminding them it isn’t” on reassignment “I asked whether I could be a Valkyrie, but apparently the only steed available in my size is a goofy pink winged pony, with I swear a cutie mark”, on the boss “he asked whether I would call him daddy, so I called him a son of a bitch, and he just laughed.” On Harry’s impending nuptials “well that’s Lara totally screwed, pity, I was just starting to like her.” On Marcone picking up a coin “so Namshiel is MORE evil now?”
Regarding the Great War, I wonder if in the Dresdenverse the Angels Of Mons legends were in fact Gard and her sisters, it would make sense.
She liked those men and she trained with those men, she knows several of them personally. And I think that was exactly the reason she ended up in Valhalla, the attitude rubbed off.
And they respected her. It will be fine.
And you don't need a steed your size, a bigger one will do just fine. It might even better.
I don't think that will be so easy, Valhalla is the hall for the dead warriors, I don't think the living are allowed there. Where as though Hades is the realm of the dead there is precedent for mortals, okay, a few heroes, visiting his Halls and returning successfully.
Harry won't stay mortal for long.
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I'll tell you, I figured what was going to happen to Murphy after I remembered her callsign this book was "Valkyrie."
(Admittedly, part of me was also hoping she'd gotten Molly to make her a doppelganger spell of her own after seeing Harry's, but oh well.)
Anyway, I'm reminded of Conan the Barbarian -- specifically, Conan's love interest, and her vow to him, "All the gods, they cannot sever us. If I were dead and you were still fighting for life, I'd come back from the darkness. Back from the pit of hell to fight at your side."
And with the amount that Butcher's put into Norse mythology, and the term "Empty Night," the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy is probably going to be Ragnarok.
The big battle that all the Einherjaren are gearing up for.
So now I'm going to hold my breath for Harry to be down in the dirt during the BAT, about to be struck down, then a tiny, but fierce, warrior steps in, clobbers whoever Harry's fighting, and smirks to him, "Do you want to live forever?"
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Harry won't stay mortal for long.
After Mab's comment in BG about mortality, I'd bet money he stays as mortal as any wizard.
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After Mab's comment in BG about mortality, I'd bet money he stays as mortal as any wizard.
The gatekeeper might be borderline immortal. Mab started as a mortal probably wizard. Kemmler nearly became an immortal.
It is completely possible that he reaches for some power up that pushes him even more in the direction of immortality. He already has better than wizard healing.wizard is just a step between normal mortal and immortal.
It might even be a continuum.
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She liked those men and she trained with those men, she knows several of them personally. And I think that was exactly the reason she ended up in Valhalla, the attitude rubbed off.
And they respected her. It will be fine.
And you don't need a steed your size, a bigger one will do just fine. It might even better.
Harry won't stay mortal for long.
Harry has already died see Ghost Story, it’s not his fault it didn’t take, and he has been chosen by Gard. If anyone can get in Harry can. He just needs to concentrate on how he felt dead when opening the portal.
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Harry has already died see Ghost Story, it’s not his fault it didn’t take, and he has been chosen by Gard. If anyone can get in Harry can. He just needs to concentrate on how he felt dead when opening the portal.
No, he was only mostly dead. Mab got to him before he was all dead, he never was a ghost in Ghost Story.
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No, he was only mostly dead. Mab got to him before he was all dead, he never was a ghost in Ghost Story.
Depends on your definition of dead and ghost. Was corpstaker dead? she was as dead as Harry and trying to get back back.
I think we can trust Lea in this:
“When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
Harry was dead. Just not gone.
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She has not come back as a Valkyrie (yet...), but she was taken to Valhalla to be an Einherjarn (despite being catholic and noticeably so in this book). So, that point of objection to her not coming back as a supernatural being is pretty much kaputt.
I personally don't believe that she is really out of the series yet, since Jim doesn't like to discard characters that easily. IMHO, she'll be back, maybe next book, maybe in a few, as an "exception to the rule" (because fictional rules are made to be broken) and either as a straight Valkyrie or as an Einherjarn.
I'm expecting her to be back in 2 books. Remember way back in Dead Beat?
My boy. There’s so much still ahead of you.
So much? I whispered.
Pain. Joy. Love. Death. Heartache. Terrible waters. Despair. Hope.
I wish I could have been with you longer. I wish I could have helped you prepare for it.
Battle Ground just hit the "Terrible Waters" of that sequence. Next comes Despair...which would match up to Mirror Mirror with Harry gallivanting around an alternate universe. Harry is going to be interacting with people who will be stabbing all of his emotional wounds. Alternate-Karrin, for instance who might be alive and not particularly friendly. I can imagine Butcher cackling to himself and having there be an alternate-Rudolph who embraced the Supernatural and he's forced to help him out for the whole book. There would be a lot of potential character growth there, but it would also be complete torture the entire time.
The book after Mirror Mirror is I believe the Wrestling book, which would correspond with Hope. I expect this is the book he gets Murphy and Thomas back.
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Depends on your definition of dead and ghost. Was corpstaker dead? she was as dead as Harry and trying to get back back.
I think we can trust Lea in this:
Harry was dead. Just not gone.
Nope, more of a coma. And he wasn't a ghost, he was him, soul and all walking around. Bob even said so in their talk to save Forthill.
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I'm expecting her to be back in 2 books. Remember way back in Dead Beat?
Battle Ground just hit the "Terrible Waters" of that sequence. Next comes Despair...which would match up to Mirror Mirror with Harry gallivanting around an alternate universe. Harry is going to be interacting with people who will be stabbing all of his emotional wounds. Alternate-Karrin, for instance who might be alive and not particularly friendly. I can imagine Butcher cackling to himself and having there be an alternate-Rudolph who embraced the Supernatural and he's forced to help him out for the whole book. There would be a lot of potential character growth there, but it would also be complete torture the entire time.
The book after Mirror Mirror is I believe the Wrestling book, which would correspond with Hope. I expect this is the book he gets Murphy and Thomas back.
Every one of those things happens in every Dresden book.
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Nope, more of a coma. And he wasn't a ghost, he was him, soul and all walking around. Bob even said so in their talk to save Forthill.
I mean he was dead enough that Uriel had a job opening lined up for him in Ghost Chicago if he decided not to 'move on', so he certainly seems to have been pretty dead, but sure.
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His soul wasn't in his body. That seems pretty much the standard definition of "dead" to me.
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His soul wasn't in his body. That seems pretty much the standard definition of "dead" to me.
I do see your point about that. But because it's the Dresden Files, it makes it a gray area. He would have been alive because of Mab, but Uriel pulled him out before she could claim him. Mab kept him alive with help. So his body never died, he was never a ghost, that there is a claim that he was just in a coma. But with your point, it could be claimed that he died. That's why it's a gray area
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Death is becoming absolutely meaningless in the Dresdenverse. If Murphy can come back, why not Susan. And why have a mushy funeral for Murphy, since she isn't dead. She got drafted into the Foreign Legion. And they took the body to boot.
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Nope, more of a coma. And he wasn't a ghost, he was him, soul and all walking around. Bob even said so in their talk to save Forthill.
We have a dualistic worldview here, there is a material and an immaterial part of you. Your body can be in coma but if your soul and spirit are gone you are dead.
Your body can be in prime health but without the immaterial parts, spirit and soul, it is just dead matter. Mab and demonreach and the parasite were just keeping the body alive but Harry was dead.
Then were was his soul? together with his spirit wandering around on a task for Uriel (ultimately for himself but that is Uriel as we know him)
He was in afterlife. Just not beyond reach.
A ghost is simply a part of your spirit you leave behind when you go on. A shade is you when you refuse to go on and somehow nobody claims you like what happened with Karen. Spirit and soul together. Still free will but dead.
You could say that Harry was a ghost with a soul. It is just not how we usually look at it but it is as logical as a body with or without a soul.
There is a few lines from a beowulf translation I remember:
He saw in the hall, all huddled together.
The heroes asleep, then laugh in his heart.
The hideous foe, he hoped ere dawn.
To sunder body and soul of each.
That is the worldview. In that worldview when someone is on coma and life support the important question is:
Is his soul still there? If so you keep the life support running, if not you can pull the plug.
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Nope, more of a coma. And he wasn't a ghost, he was him, soul and all walking around. Bob even said so in their talk to save Forthill.
Also Mab said that it is a spectrum, there is a point where one cannot return, Harry never got to that point. It wasn't just Bob that said he wasn't a ghost, it was Morty as well, and he should know.
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I do see your point about that. But because it's the Dresden Files, it makes it a gray area. He would have been alive because of Mab, but Uriel pulled him out before she could claim him. Mab kept him alive with help. So his body never died, he was never a ghost, that there is a claim that he was just in a coma. But with your point, it could be claimed that he died. That's why it's a gray area
Right -- dead, but not gone.
Death is becoming absolutely meaningless in the Dresdenverse. If Murphy can come back, why not Susan. And why have a mushy funeral for Murphy, since she isn't dead. She got drafted into the Foreign Legion. And they took the body to boot.
She's dead. Harry can attest, the soul was gone. And -- to anyone's knowledge -- she isn't coming back. Gard ought to be an authority on that subject. Nobody who knew and loved her in life is ever going to see her again. Heck, you could interpret Gard's comments (specifically, that Murphy has "earned her rest") to mean she's not even going to be active and conscious for a while, either.
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Also Mab said that it is a spectrum, there is a point where one cannot return, Harry never got to that point. It wasn't just Bob that said he wasn't a ghost, it was Morty as well, and he should know.
He was not just a ghost, depending how you look at it. Words are not always used that precisely in the books partially because “Shade Story” just does not ring well and partly because as morty said even the ghost/shade itself does not always know. but the similarities are so big that it took Marty quite some time to figure it out if he ever did. His words at the end were not that clear.
Of course by now it is quite clear. A pity we never heard them talking shop after his return.
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He was not just a ghost, depending how you look at it. Words are not always used that precisely in the books partially because “Shade Story” just does not ring well and partly because as morty said even the ghost/shade itself does not always know. but the similarities are so big that it took Marty quite some time to figure it out if he ever did. His words at the end were not that clear.
Of course by now it is quite clear. A pity we never heard them talking shop after his return.
Actually, if you read carefully, Ghost Story, it is clear that Harry wasn't dead, he wasn't a ghost.. His soul was allowed to wander about, which was a huge risk that Uriel was willing to take to teach him a less on, and Mab wasn't, but couldn't fight Uriel on the subject... Besides if Harry was all dead there wouldn't have been any need for Alfred's I.V., or the parasite's blood circulation job, or Mab doing the lungs or whatever other support she was doing. It would have been pointless if he were all dead.
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Actually, if you read carefully, Ghost Story, it is clear that Harry wasn't dead, he wasn't a ghost.. His soul was allowed to wander about, which was a huge risk that Uriel was willing to take to teach him a less on, and Mab wasn't, but couldn't fight Uriel on the subject... Besides if Harry was all dead there wouldn't have been any need for Alfred's I.V., or the parasite's blood circulation job, or Mab doing the lungs or whatever other support she was doing. It would have been pointless if he were all dead.
Everyone in the series said he was dead, he just had a chance to return, that is all.
And yes if you read ghost story carefully or even not that carefully it is clear what the differences are. The ability to enter a church for example is telling.
But his soul was not wandering around completely naked. He had his spiritual power with him and that could be reduced as happened in the story. That spiritual power is the same stuff ghosts are made of which explains the similarities:
I folded my arms. “What if I dig the ghost routine?”
“You don’t,” Uriel replied. “But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated. You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones. Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them—but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it.”
A clear foreshadowing for his later plans. Mark that Harry is talking about the Ghost routine, not the shade routine but you could say that Uriel is correcting him.
Or Shade is just ghost + soul
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Harry was dead, uriel didn't just snatch Harry's soul out of his living body, angels aren't allowed to do that. Uriel had to wait till Harry was dead and then take the soul, before mab could get to it. Mab then had to repair the body and keep it functioning until uriel was done.
That's why uriel was allowed to offer Harry the chance to stay in the afterlife and work for him, an angel couldn't do that to a mortal who's alive. Once Harry made his choice it allowed mab to put Harry's soul in his body.
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Harry has already died see Ghost Story, it’s not his fault it didn’t take, and he has been chosen by Gard. If anyone can get in Harry can. He just needs to concentrate on how he felt dead when opening the portal.
He also died at least once in Grave Peril. I say twice.
He was dead enough in Ghost Story for it to have significant metaphysical impact. I can't remember if it was Odin, the Gatekeeper, or both who went on about it in Cold Days.
Harry was dead, uriel didn't just snatch Harry's soul out of his living body, angels aren't allowed to do that.
Uriel wasn't even allowed to help Thomas because Thomas was still alive. Because he was still alive, he still had choice.
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Harry was dead, uriel didn't just snatch Harry's soul out of his living body, angels aren't allowed to do that. Uriel had to wait till Harry was dead and then take the soul, before mab could get to it. Mab then had to repair the body and keep it functioning until uriel was done.
That's why uriel was allowed to offer Harry the chance to stay in the afterlife and work for him, an angel couldn't do that to a mortal who's alive. Once Harry made his choice it allowed mab to put Harry's soul in his body.
There might have been some negotiation between Uriel and Mab about Harry just as there might have been some negotiation between Uriel and Vadderung about Murphy.
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She's dead. Harry can attest, the soul was gone. And -- to anyone's knowledge -- she isn't coming back. Gard ought to be an authority on that subject. Nobody who knew and loved her in life is ever going to see her again. Heck, you could interpret Gard's comments (specifically, that Murphy has "earned her rest") to mean she's not even going to be active and conscious for a while, either.
Again, fictional rules are there to be broken when it's convenient for the story overall. I don't see Jim discarding Murphy that easily.
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Again, fictional rules are there to be broken when it's convenient for the story overall. I don't see Jim discarding Murphy that easily.
I do see her coming back eventually -- see my prediction a page or two ago -- but not for a while.
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I do see her coming back eventually -- see my prediction a page or two ago -- but not for a while.
You need a really apocalyptic situation for that ;D
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In Battle Ground, Harry clearly talks about the six months Mab stayed on Demonreach, "to keep me alive," while his soul did it's walk about. Now that was Uriel's idea, if Mab had had her way, he might have woken up as soon as she got him to dry land. Then who knows? She might of killed him for trying to evade her by trying to kill himself.
I don't think Murphy will be back, and if she does I think you will find her totally changed from what she was.
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In Battle Ground, Harry clearly talks about the six months Mab stayed on Demonreach, "to keep me alive," while his soul did it's walk about. Now that was Uriel's idea, if Mab had had her way, he might have woken up as soon as she got him to dry land. Then who knows? She might of killed him for trying to evade her by trying to kill himself.
She won't. Not for that. It was a deception within the rules set up before the contract started so she only admires it and it makes him more useful in her eyes.
I don't think Murphy will be back, and if she does I think you will find her totally changed from what she was.
I don't think so either but maybe at the end briefly in the nevernever near the gates as Harry is not mortal anyway.
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Again, fictional rules are there to be broken when it's convenient for the story overall. I don't see Jim discarding Murphy that easily.
Jim set it up both ways, to bring her back or to leave her dead. He could very easily leave her out of the story except for the random mention from here on.
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There might have been some negotiation between Uriel and Mab about Harry just as there might have been some negotiation between Uriel and Vadderung about Murphy.
As Uriel explains, Harry' free will was taken away by Lashiel. Her whisper shoved Harry over the edge and Uriel was allowed 7 words of his own. The reason of Ghost Story was for Harry to understand what happened and decide if he actually was a suicide and stay in Uriel's service or wasn't a suicide and see what's next.
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As Uriel explains, Harry' free will was taken away by Lashiel. Her whisper shoved Harry over the edge and Uriel was allowed 7 words of his own. The reason of Ghost Story was for Harry to understand what happened and decide if he actually was a suicide and stay in Uriel's service or wasn't a suicide and see what's next.
That was Uriel and Harry. There must have been some understanding between Uriel and Mab as well.
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That was Uriel and Harry. There must have been some understanding between Uriel and Mab as well.
There was, and apparently Uriel carries a little more weight, because Mab was forced to go along with the lesson he wanted to teach. As she pointed out, if it went wrong, Harry would have gone all dead and she would have lost her Knight.
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Probably because while Mab had a hold of Harry's body and was keeping it alive, Uriel had Harry's soul in his possession.
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There was, and apparently Uriel carries a little more weight, because Mab was forced to go along with the lesson he wanted to teach. As she pointed out, if it went wrong, Harry would have gone all dead and she would have lost her Knight.
Because Uriel must have had some claim on Murphy too and Vadderung got her. There is a recent woj about that kind of situation which says that Vadderung sometimes negotiates for people he needs and that they wake up rather surprised in walhalla.
I imagine Uriel and Vadderung had lunch and they talked about it and Uriel being Uriel made it dependent on Murphy’s choice. Maybe a similar deal was made with Mab. That thing with the doors was suspicious.
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You need a really apocalyptic situation for that ;D
Do we? I mean, again, fiction. We are putting a lot of weight on a short paragraph of words said by Sigrun Gard, without any real contextual explanations, who is an employee of one Mr. Kringle. She's a pretty straight person, but I'm pretty sure that if she had gotten instructions by her boss, she might have not been 100% truthful.
Not even to mention that there are a ton of work-arounds which could be done. Oh, she comes back as a Valkyrie, which is different from being an Einherjar, golly gee wiz. Oh, her being so catholic and being a former Knight of the Cross makes her a special case. It's easy, it just depends if Jim wants her back or not.
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Lurking for some time, joined up just to share this thought.
Doesn't Murphy's slightly odd death, a stray bullet fired by a chump with no trigger discipline, sound like just the thing a time travelling wizard could change easily and unobtrusively???
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Lurking for some time, joined up just to share this thought.
Doesn't Murphy's slightly odd death, a stray bullet fired by a chump with no trigger discipline, sound like just the thing a time travelling wizard could change easily and unobtrusively???
It just shows how dangerous crazy people with guns are.
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It just shows how dangerous crazy people with guns are.
Amen.
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I have always thought that the series would end with the apocalypse and it would seam strange to collect einherjargen to be ready for it and not use them all when it comes. If all the einherjargen are coming out to fight or would be odd if Harry and Murph did not meet. I think it fair not to state ...unless the apocalypse comes as an exception to every statement :-D
And I would not find someone coming back to fight in the apocalypse making death meaningless in The Dresdenverse
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Do we? I mean, again, fiction. We are putting a lot of weight on a short paragraph of words said by Sigrun Gard, without any real contextual explanations, who is an employee of one Mr. Kringle. She's a pretty straight person, but I'm pretty sure that if she had gotten instructions by her boss, she might have not been 100% truthful.
Not even to mention that there are a ton of work-arounds which could be done. Oh, she comes back as a Valkyrie, which is different from being an Einherjar, golly gee wiz. Oh, her being so catholic and being a former Knight of the Cross makes her a special case. It's easy, it just depends if Jim wants her back or not.
Absolutely YES, all of it!!! I will add, when death isn't final the story starts to suffer because there is no pain. "Just wait a book or two and she'll be back" robs us all of an emotional end to an excellent character.
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Absolutely YES, all of it!!! I will add, when death isn't final the story starts to suffer because there is no pain. "Just wait a book or two and she'll be back" robs us all of an emotional end to an excellent character.
Yes, and bringing her back somehow cheapens the character. Tis a pet peeve of mine in books, movies, and television shows, the writers do a really outstanding job making an end for the character. Not always death either, just a good end.. But some idiot decides that was such a poetic end, that we need to make a sequel, bring him or her back to somehow enhance the other characters.. It usually doesn't work, I'm thinking of a character they brought back from the dead, Tasha Yar, then killed her off again poetically in an alternate universe "Yesterday's Enterprise." Then decided that because that was such a success, lets bring her back as her half Romunlan daughter because Tasha Yar really did survive the battle that no one in the current timeline even knows happened, and the Tasha Yar of the current timeline died a needless death years before in a run in with an oily alien...
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I have always thought that the series would end with the apocalypse and it would seam strange to collect einherjargen to be ready for it and not use them all when it comes. If all the einherjargen are coming out to fight or would be odd if Harry and Murph did not meet. I think it fair not to state ...unless the apocalypse comes as an exception to every statement :-D
And I would not find someone coming back to fight in the apocalypse making death meaningless in The Dresdenverse
Bringing an excellent fighter back for the purpose of the apocalypse would probably be fine given that Murph didn't interact with anyone, was seen from a distance but not able to be reached, then disappeared at the end of the battle. Leave the tension in the air, twist the heart some, make the reader scream NNNOOOOOOOO
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Bringing an excellent fighter back for the purpose of the apocalypse would probably be fine given that Murph didn't interact with anyone, was seen from a distance but not able to be reached, then disappeared at the end of the battle. Leave the tension in the air, twist the heart some, make the reader scream NNNOOOOOOOO
Yeah, real heartbreak for Harry, he comes back to Mac's place, exhausted, wounded in body and mind looking forward to Murphy's arms around him... She's not there, when things got hairy it was impossible to hold her. She was last seen limping down the street towards the Titan with a rocket launcher on her back... Harry rushes back to the area of the Battle of The Bean, and finds her, covered in blood next to a couple of would be tough kids in shock.. They tell Harry how she died protecting them.
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I imagine Uriel and Vadderung had lunch and they talked about it and Uriel being Uriel made it dependent on Murphy’s choice. Maybe a similar deal was made with Mab. That thing with the doors was suspicious.
That makes sense. Given a choice between off the field for good or a chance to come back and fight the good fight in Ragnarok, it's a no-brainer. She's got the same never quit attitude as Harry.
Plus, Harry ate the donut Vadderung offered him in Changes, with consideration about the meaning of accepting food offered by Odin in his 'hall'. He's probably destined for the same afterlife when his time comes.
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Yes, and bringing her back somehow cheapens the character. Tis a pet peeve of mine in books, movies, and television shows, the writers do a really outstanding job making an end for the character. Not always death either, just a good end.. But some idiot decides that was such a poetic end, that we need to make a sequel, bring him or her back to somehow enhance the other characters.. It usually doesn't work, I'm thinking of a character they brought back from the dead, Tasha Yar, then killed her off again poetically in an alternate universe "Yesterday's Enterprise." Then decided that because that was such a success, lets bring her back as her half Romunlan daughter because Tasha Yar really did survive the battle that no one in the current timeline even knows happened, and the Tasha Yar of the current timeline died a needless death years before in a run in with an oily alien...
Quite the contrary with me. I think killing off a character robs him of all future potential. The better solution is to not kill them off in the first place, but I'd rather have them back then be gone forever. It doesn't always work out in the end, true, but often it does. I'm a comics guy, so I am pretty inured to the argument that "dead means dead", anyway.
Also, I personally still think Jim is not the guy to kill off main characters in the way Murphy did go. There is too much foreshadowing with her training with the Einherjar and the way she interacted with Freydis and just the fact that she got taken away to Valhalla to let her just go. If she was meant to be out of the series, her going to the Catholic afterlife would have been the thing to do.
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Gotta say, I'm looking forward to the Tiniest Valkyrie series Jim ought to be giving us.
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Gotta say, I'm looking forward to the Tiniest Valkyrie series Jim ought to be giving us.
Problem with that is she's not a Valkyrie, she's Einherjar. There is a difference
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Problem with that is she's not a Valkyrie, she's Einherjar. There is a difference
She never could be because the Valkyrie are Odin's daughters, and she isn't. I think Jim decided to make her a Einherjar as opposed to going to what comes next, does give some of her fans the outside hope that she will return, though I doubt that as long as Harry lives she will leave his memory. Then again if she went the other route, she could appear as a ghost from time to time.
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Problem with that is she's not a Valkyrie, she's Einherjar. There is a difference
Tiniest Einherjar then. She'd be great in her own POV series continuing her quest against the bad guys.
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She never could be because the Valkyrie are Odin's daughters, and she isn't. I think Jim decided to make her a Einherjar as opposed to going to what comes next, does give some of her fans the outside hope that she will return, though I doubt that as long as Harry lives she will leave his memory. Then again if she went the other route, she could appear as a ghost from time to time.
I do not think they are Odin’s daughters. Jim described them as mortals with benefits. They are just recruited.
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Heck, Sigrun herself laughs at the very suggestion in Heorot.
“I thought Valkyries mostly did pickups and deliveries,” I said.
“Choosing the best warriors from among the slain. Taking them off
to Valhalla. Oh, and serving drinks there. Odin’s virgin daughters,
pouring mead for the warriors, partying until Ragnarok.”
Gard threw back her head and laughed. “Virgin daughters.” She
rose, shaking her head, and glanced at her broken arm again.
Then she leaned down and kissed me on the mouth. Her lips were
a sweet, hungry little fire of sensation, and I felt the kiss all the way
to my toes—some places more than others, ahem.
She drew away slowly, her pale blue eyes shining. Then she
winked at me and said, “Don’t believe everything you read,
Dresden.” She turned to go, then paused to glance over her
shoulder. “Though, to be honest, sometimes he does like us to call
him Daddy. I’m Sigrun.”
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Heck, Sigrun herself laughs at the very suggestion in Heorot.
She laughs at the idea that they are virgins, but she isn't saying that they aren't his daughters.
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She laughs at the idea that they are virgins, but she isn't saying that they aren't his daughters.
No, she laughs at the whole statement. She does not specify "virgin," she tells Harry that the thing she repeated and highlighted -- "virgin daughters" -- is not true.
There's also the statement that she's a scion of Beowulf himself, not Odin, in the same story -- Harry calls her a "Scion of the Geat" and she all but confirms it.
That's what leads into the bit I quoted. Harry saying, "So you're a daughter of Beowulf? But I thought valkyries were Odin's virgin daughters." and Sigrun laughing at "virgin daughters" and telling Harry the idea that she's Odin's "virgin daughter" is not true.
Or how about in Aftermath, where Gard tries to recruit Murphy as a "security consultant" -- which is to say the exact same position Gard herself has?
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She laughs at the idea that they are virgins, but she isn't saying that they aren't his daughters.
A normal interpretation from that last sentence is that he is not their daddy but he likes being called daddy sometimes.
At the end of bg when Gard warns Harry not to insult Vadderung she describes him as an elemental being. The whole description is not a description of daddy.
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Yeah, I think the "Odin's daughters" is more brought up because some people want to rule out as many possibilities for a return for Murphy as possible. It's pretty clearly a misinformation Harry was operating under.
Also, who says she can't "upgrade" from Einherjar to Valkyrie?
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Murphy I think will be back as a Einherjar/Angel thing given all the shit that Jim should have taken into account (Harry when using "sight" looking at her, her being Catholic, the swords reaction to her , the call sign she was given) when giving her the boost and she will be back sooner than BAT more like 2-3 books. Given it would
1. Give Jim a chance to torture his readers and Karrin and Harry at the same time
2. Gard said she can't return until all "memory of her has FADED from those that knew her". using the Websters definition it just means "weakened or diminished " with her being dead it shouldn't be that long for memory of her to blur with the people she knew. Think if Butcher wanted her gone for good he would have used forgotten not faded
3. I see no way with her waking up in Valhalla and being told no you can't leave and just accepting that given she knows what type shit Harry can get himself into with her staging a jailbreak on her own.
4. Murphy is a large support and foundational pillar with a lot of fans that I don't think the series can work long term without I hope Butcher know this or it may cost him some fans.
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I think if she were a Valkyrie in training, Gard would have said it..
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I think if she were a Valkyrie in training, Gard would have said it..
Oh she definitely is not a valkyrie now but maybe if she had accepted Gards offer in aftermath.
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There's also the statement that she's a scion of Beowulf himself, not Odin, in the same story -- Harry calls her a "Scion of the Geat" and she all but confirms it.
At some point in PT/BG, doesn't River Shoulders say that Vadderung is Beowulf, or did I just read that wrong?
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At some point in PT/BG, doesn't River Shoulders say that Vadderung is Beowulf, or did I just read that wrong?
You're right, he says something like that.
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I think if she were a Valkyrie in training, Gard would have said it..
Or maybe Gard has some orders from higher up to be circumspect about it.
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At some point in PT/BG, doesn't River Shoulders say that Vadderung is Beowulf, or did I just read that wrong?
It may have been one of his guises like Kringle. Gard said Odin takes them up because mortals couldn't handle the reality of him.
Oh she definitely is not a valkyrie now but maybe if she had accepted Gards offer in aftermath.
Gard never mentioned valkyrie in the job offer, only that Murphy had the right color hair to work in Vadderung's office.
She also calls Odin "Allfather" So he is, that might be why she jokingly said he likes them to call him "daddy" sometime. A lot less formal, I agree she isn't a virgin, but I think it could go either way as to whether or not Odin is her father.
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It may have been one of his guises like Kringle. Gard said Odin takes them up because mortals couldn't handle the reality of him.
Gard never mentioned valkyrie in the job offer, only that Murphy had the right color hair to work in Vadderung's office.
She also calls Odin "Allfather" So he is, that might be why she jokingly said he likes them to call him "daddy" sometime. A lot less formal, I agree she isn't a virgin, but I think it could go either way as to whether or not Odin is her father.
I do not think Gard offered a desk job.
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I do not think Gard offered a desk job.
I didn't say she did, however if the job offer was Valkyrie, she would have said it.
What she said was
"Vadderung would definitely find you interesting. You've even got the hair for it.
Don't be surprised if you get a call sometime."
Given her end, that might have been all that Gard meant, when she meets her warrior's end there will be a place in Valhalla for her.
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I didn't say she did, however if the job offer was Valkyrie, she would have said it.
Because that's how she introduced herself to Harry, right, by saying, "Hi, I'm Gard, I'm a valkyrie?"
None of the supernatural people in this entire series is anywhere near that forthright and direct; they all speak in euphemisms, especially to those they have only recently met. Harry only teases out that she's a Valkyrie after a literal life-and-death battle with her, and even then she never says it, she just lets Harry work out the conclusion and doesn't contradict him.
So the idea that she only could have meant valkyrie if she literally said the word "valkyrie" falls on its face.
What she said was
Given her end, that might have been all that Gard meant, when she meets her warrior's end there will be a place in Valhalla for her.
That is not all she said. Here's where she's actually making the offer.
“There’s another position you might consider.
Monoc Securities is always hiring. My boss is always pleased to
find those with the proper”—she pursed her lips—“frame of mind.
Considering your experience and skill set, I think you could do very
well as one of our security consultants.”
And how is Ms. Gard introduced again?
Miss Gard smiled. Professional smiles all around tonight, it
would seem. "I'm from the Monoc Foundation," she said. "I'm a
consultant."
"Regarding what, one wonders," said Susan. She definitely had
the sharpest smile of those present.
"Security," Gard said, unruffled. She focused on me. "I help
make sure that thieves, spies, and poor wandering spirits don't
wind up all over the lawn."
So, in that scene, Gard is explicitly offering Murphy the same job that Gard herself does.
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So, in that scene, Gard is explicitly offering Murphy the same job that Gard herself does.
Perhaps at Marcone's office, the same job, security, and Murphy did work for Marcone for a time. But that is Gard's secondary job in the guise of security, like Odin is Vadderung, Kringle etc.. Her main job as a Valkyrie, is selecting worthy warriors who die a warrior's death to become Einherjar, and take them to Valhalla..
Battle Ground, Harry finds Murphy gone and where the body was is a mark, the Symbol of Odin.
Gard explains..
"It's the same," Gard slurred. "Where Nathan died." Her red eyes welled. "That damn knot. It's part of our inventory system. A check mark. One Einherjar picked up and in transit."
That is pretty clear, Murphy and Hendricks picked up to be Einherjar.. She also says that she had limited intellectus,in order to know Murphy's deeds in life. Don't think that was offered to Murphy. And finally Gard says;
"In our halls, warriors who died for family, for duty, for love, are given the respect such a death deserves. She will want for nothing."
Clearly Valhalla, celebrated as an Einherjar warrior, not a newly minted Valkyrie.
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From Small favor:
“This isn’t the first time I’ve had my guts ripped out. It isn’t fun, but I’ll make it.”
“Damn,” I said, genuinely impressed. “Are they hiring?”
The question won another faint smile. “You don’t really fit the employee profile.”
Murphy did. Before she died that is.
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From Small favor:
Murphy did. Before she died that is.
She didn't fit the profile for a Valkyrie, but she does and did then for an Einherjar.
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She didn't fit the profile for a Valkyrie, but she does and did then for an Einherjar.
Who said she did not? She got an offer while alive. She only fitted the Einherjar profile after dead and they did not even offer it to her, she got drafted.
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Who said she did not? She got an offer while alive. She only fitted the Einherjar profile after dead and they did not even offer it to her, she got drafted.
No, she fitted the Einherjar profile all of her life, that is what Gard said. She told Harry not to argue with her because it is her job to know.
Gard told Murphy when she asked if they were hiring..
You don’t really fit the employee profile.”
What she is saying, is Murphy cannot be a Valkyrie.
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No, she fitted the Einherjar profile all of her life, that is what Gard said. She told Harry not to argue with her because it is her job to know.
Gard told Murphy when she asked if they were hiring..
What she is saying, is Murphy cannot be a Valkyrie.
Einherjar don't get a job offer, they just get drafted without any further notice. And they only fit the profile when they die.
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Perhaps at Marcone's office, the same job, security, and Murphy did work for Marcone for a time. But that is Gard's secondary job in the guise of security, like Odin is Vadderung, Kringle etc.. Her main job as a Valkyrie, is selecting worthy warriors who die a warrior's death to become Einherjar, and take them to Valhalla..
In the bit I quoted, Gard is asking directly and explicitly of Murphy wants to work for Monoc Securities, by word and name.
There is none of the ambiguity you are trying to attribute to it.
Gard is asking Murphy if Murphy wants to work for Gard's boss -- Odin -- in the same position that Gard herself has -- as a "security consultant" valkyrie.
I don't understand why you're fighting this so hard when the book is crystal clear.
Battle Ground, Harry finds Murphy gone and where the body was is a mark, the Symbol of Odin.
Gard explains..
That is pretty clear, Murphy and Hendricks picked up to be Einherjar.. She also says that she had limited intellectus,in order to know Murphy's deeds in life. Don't think that was offered to Murphy. And finally Gard says;
Clearly Valhalla, celebrated as an Einherjar warrior, not a newly minted Valkyrie.
Yes, I am aware that Murphy was picked up as an Einherjar in this book. That is, again, direct and explicit. I am not arguing that Murphy is now a Valkyrie.
What I am arguing is that she could have been a Valkyrie if she had so chosen. She did not choose that, and is now an Einherjar, but the argument that her being a Valkyrie was not possible and never offered is explicitly contradicted directly by the text.
No, she fitted the Einherjar profile all of her life, that is what Gard said. She told Harry not to argue with her because it is her job to know.
Gard told Murphy when she asked if they were hiring..
What she is saying, is Murphy cannot be a Valkyrie.
Arjan just quoted that exact passage. It's from Small Favor and Gard is talking to Harry in a scene where Murphy is not present.
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She also calls Odin "Allfather" So he is, that might be why she jokingly said he likes them to call him "daddy" sometime. A lot less formal, I agree she isn't a virgin, but I think it could go either way as to whether or not Odin is her father.
"Allfather" is basically his job title, it's widely used in the Marvel Comics version of him as well and I can tell you that the Valkyries are not his daughters over there.
As far as the discussion above, she was picked up as an Einherjar, there is nothing which says she can't "upgrade", if offered.
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Arjan just quoted that exact passage. It's from Small Favor and Gard is talking to Harry in a scene where Murphy is not present.
Again, the title of the job in question is "security consultant.." That isn't job prime for a Valkyrie..
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Again, the title of the job in question is "security consultant.." That isn't job prime for a Valkyrie..
Again: Supernatural creatures like Gard, or like Harry, or like literally everyone else, almost never straight out say things like that. "She didn't say the word valkyrie" is completely irrelevant because scene is crystal clear on what Gard is offering Murphy there.
The job is the exact same job that Gard herself has, no matter how you try to twist and deny it.
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Again: Supernatural creatures like Gard, or like Harry, or like literally everyone else, almost never straight out say things like that. "She didn't say the word valkyrie" is completely irrelevant because scene is crystal clear on what Gard is offering Murphy there.
The job is the exact same job that Gard herself has, no matter how you try to twist and deny it.
If I may, no it's not crystal clear. It is to you because that is what you want it to be. Another person who reads it may not think Valkyrie, only security consultant. By your own argument, we are not told that it is a Valkyrie job, just a security consultant job. You are making the assumption that Valkyrie and security consultant are one job when it is not specifically stated that it is one. It could be that all the Valkyries hold that position, but not all security consultant for Odin are Valkyries. That is an answer only Jim can give.
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If I may, no it's not crystal clear. It is to you because that is what you want it to be. Another person who reads it may not think Valkyrie, only security consultant. By your own argument, we are not told that it is a Valkyrie job, just a security consultant job. You are making the assumption that Valkyrie and security consultant are one job when it is not specifically stated that it is one. It could be that all the Valkyries hold that position, but not all security consultant for Odin are Valkyries. That is an answer only Jim can give.
The conversation happens after Murphy fights a den of supernatural creatures. It's not happening after Murphy demonstrates that she knows how to protect a banker's assets from being stolen, or stopping industrial espionage.
The thing that Murphy has demonstrated is her ability and willingness to fight monsters, and that is the thing that makes Gard offer her the job.
The thing that gets Gard's attention is the knowledge and skill that Gard uses for her job in fighting supernatural monsters.
There's nothing in the context of that conversation that says, "I want to give you a totally mundane job literally acting as a security consultant."
Look, this isn't complicated. Authors, like Jim, use repeated phrases to directly link ideas.
He links Gard to the phrase "security consultant," and through her actions and interactions with the cast, it becomes clear that that's code for "Valkyrie," especially after we know that her boss is Odin. Through Gard's words and actions we know that, among other things, Valkyries are kickass warrior women who fight supernatural creatures.
So when Gard -- the Valkyrie -- comes to Murphy after Murphy has just done one of the things that Valkyries do, and offers her the same job that Gard -- the Valkyrie -- does, using the same title she used to refer to herself, that means that Gard is asking her to become a Valkyrie.
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So when Gard -- the Valkyrie -- comes to Murphy after Murphy has just done one of the things that Valkyries do, and offers her the same job that Gard -- the Valkyrie -- does, using the same title she used to refer to herself, that means that Gard is asking her to become a Valkyrie.
That is an assumption, not a fact.. Actually she worked more with the Einherjar when she worked for Marcone, then she ever worked with Gard. So if you want foreshadowing, there it is.
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That is an assumption, not a fact.. Actually she worked more with the Einherjar when she worked for Marcone, then she ever worked with Gard. So if you want foreshadowing, there it is.
That is foreshadowing but the whole discussion is not about foreshadowing, it is about connecting the dots, about what is said.
It is about a real offer that was made not about the foreshadowing of a future situation.
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That is foreshadowing but the whole discussion is not about foreshadowing, it is about connecting the dots, about what is said.
It is about a real offer that was made not about the foreshadowing of a future situation.
Well, since she was killed and now an Einherjar, she sparred with them and she was a warrior, that was the offer.. She isn't a Valkyrie.
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Well, since she was killed and now an Einherjar, she sparred with them and she was a warrior, that was the offer.. She isn't a Valkyrie.
That also was not the point of discussion. She could have become one if she had accepted Gard's offer to become a "consultant".
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Well, since she was killed and now an Einherjar, she sparred with them and she was a warrior, that was the offer.. She isn't a Valkyrie.
That she is an Einherjar now does not in any way, shape, or form mean she couldn't have become a Valkyrie before.
It's like you're arguing that because Harry ended up the Winter Knight, he couldn't possibly have become a Denarian and Lasciel wasn't offering to make him one. Ending up as one thing does not mean one couldn't have become another thing if they'd chosen differently.
Gard's offer was clear from the context of the series, our knowledge of Gard, and the scene. She was not offering to make her Einherjar there -- to be Einherjar, you have to die. Einherjar are also never referred to as "security consultants." The only characters referred to as such are Valkyries like Gard and Freydis. Gard's own words were offering Murphy the same job that Gard herself identifies as having, a job that is clearly code within the series for "Valkyrie."
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Gard's offer was clear from the context of the series, our knowledge of Gard, and the scene. She was not offering to make her Einherjar there -- to be Einherjar, you have to die. Einherjar are also never referred to as "security consultants." The only characters referred to as such are Valkyries like Gard and Freydis. Gard's own words were offering Murphy the same job that Gard herself identifies as having, a job that is clearly code within the series for "Valkyrie."
Does it? No where in the job description for security for Marcone's organization does it include collecting dead warriors and taking them to Valhalla.. That is Gard's true day job..
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Does it? No where in the job description for security for Marcone's organization does it include collecting dead warriors and taking them to Valhalla.. That is Gard's true day job..
But it is never her explicitly stated day job. She is always called and called herself a security consultant.
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But it is never her explicitly stated day job. She is always called and called herself a security consultant.
Would she have to explain it? But honestly, what does it matter?
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Would she have to explain it? But honestly, what does it matter?
It does matter for the original point about the nature of the job offered by Gard.
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It does matter for the original point about the nature of the job offered by Gard.
I think since she wasn't specific, I think if much more of an assumption than fact. Another thing that says that it wasn't a Valkyrie job being offered, there is a finite number of them, it hasn't grown in several millennia. But if it makes her fans feel better to think that choosing the dead warriors and waiting on Odin and his Einherjan as a Vlkyrie, is better than being a Einherjan, have at it.. Murphy would make a good bar maid serving up mead.. ::)
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I think since she wasn't specific, I think if much more of an assumption than fact. Another thing that says that it wasn't a Valkyrie job being offered, there is a finite number of them,
Assumption one.
it hasn't grown in several millennia.
Assumption two
But if it makes her fans feel better to think that choosing the dead warriors and waiting on Odin and his Einherjan as a Vlkyrie,
Assumption three.
is better than being a Einherjan, have at it.. Murphy would make a good bar maid serving up mead.. ::)
And that is four. I do not think she will make a good barmaid. Not motivated.
I count at least four assumptions here. More if you take into consideration that Jim is not following the mythology literally here and that it is unlikely that Gard doubles as a barmaid.
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There's a strong argument that "security consultant" for Monoc is a Valkyrie. The only security consultants we've seen from Monoc are Valkyries. Murphy has the right color hair for it. It fits.
However, it's not conclusive. Monoc could have mortal employees. Not that we've seen one.
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That she is an Einherjar now does not in any way, shape, or form mean she couldn't have become a Valkyrie before.
Or, y'know, after.
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Or, y'know, after.
I believe Jim described Valkyries as mortals with benefits so I think you have to start as a mortal.
Another indication about the nature of Gard’s job offer.
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I believe Jim described Valkyries as mortals with benefits so I think you have to start as a mortal.
Another indication about the nature of Gard’s job offer.
Again, fictional rules are made to be broken. All I'm saying is that it is completely possible for Jim to write a believable way to bring her back and as a Valkyrie (or just the former as an Einherjar), even in the next book if he chooses so. More likely in the wrestling book, though, so that he can deal with the whole Lara thing in Mirror Mirror.
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Again, fictional rules are made to be broken. All I'm saying is that it is completely possible for Jim to write a believable way to bring her back and as a Valkyrie (or just the former as an Einherjar), even in the next book if he chooses so. More likely in the wrestling book, though, so that he can deal with the whole Lara thing in Mirror Mirror.
Only problem is that Jim said no power ups for Murphy. Valkyrie would be a powerup. So no Valkyrie powers for Murphy. And keep her out of the books for now. Harry needs to learn to think and work without her. He's almost always had her as an adviser.
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Only problem is that Jim said no power ups for Murphy. Valkyrie would be a powerup. So no Valkyrie powers for Murphy. And keep her out of the books for now. Harry needs to learn to think and work without her. He's almost always had her as an adviser.
Thank you, yes, and what is more so many that are now arguing for he to be a Valkyrie, used to sing the praises of Murphy for being a vanilla human sounding board for Harry.
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Thank you, yes, and what is more so many that are now arguing for he to be a Valkyrie, used to sing the praises of Murphy for being a vanilla human sounding board for Harry.
No power ups for Murphy does not mean no power ups offered, it only means no power ups accepted. It was not in character for Murphy to accept Gard’s offer in Aftermath.
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No power ups for Murphy does not mean no power ups offered, it only means no power ups accepted. It was not in character for Murphy to accept Gard’s offer in Aftermath.
Right, but what she said and what I've been reading, some of the people that wanted her to stay the non-superpower assisted person now want her, now that she's dead, to come back as a powered up Valkyrie. Can't have it both ways. Leave her be for now and have her come back at the end all healed up and ready for a fight.
Oh, and to push some buttons in a laugh, she comes back having started a physical relationship with Hendricks.
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Right, but what she said and what I've been reading, some of the people that wanted her to stay the non-superpower assisted person now want her, now that she's dead, to come back as a powered up Valkyrie. Can't have it both ways. Leave her be for now and have her come back at the end all healed up and ready for a fight.
Oh, and to push some buttons in a laugh, she comes back having started a physical relationship with Hendricks.
A couple of people are saying, in this thread, she could still eventually promote to Valkyrie.
Most of the argument is about Gard's previous offer of becoming a security consultant, and whether that was code for assuming a Valkyrie mantle.
Murphy refused Gard's offer, but when she died it was prime Einherjar material.
So, Gard offered to let her go to Officer Training School, Murphy refused, but she got drafted as a grunt. The implication is that mortals ascebd to become Valkyries, but only the dead can become Einherjar.
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Only problem is that Jim said no power ups for Murphy. Valkyrie would be a powerup. So no Valkyrie powers for Murphy. And keep her out of the books for now. Harry needs to learn to think and work without her. He's almost always had her as an adviser.
She's an Einherjar right now already, so that "rule" of "no power ups" is, obviously, kaputt. As for the latter, I disagree. Having support by this friends is what makes Harry strong, especially if they are well capable of calling him out on his tendency to beat himself up emotionally and for his occasional arrogance.
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She's an Einherjar right now already, so that "rule" of "no power ups" is, obviously, kaputt. As for the latter, I disagree. Having support by this friends is what makes Harry strong, especially if they are well capable of calling him out on his tendency to beat himself up emotionally and for his occasional arrogance.
Einherjars have no powers, they are just kick ass warriors, but the giant had no problem with them, come to think of it, Lara had no problem with one of them either.
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Einherjars have no powers, they are just kick ass warriors, but the giant had no problem with them, come to think of it, Lara had no problem with one of them either.
I'm pretty sure that she'll be restored to peak physical power as one of them and she also got some sweet immortality out of the deal. So, yeah, power-up achieved.
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She's an Einherjar right now already, so that "rule" of "no power ups" is, obviously, kaputt. As for the latter, I disagree. Having support by this friends is what makes Harry strong, especially if they are well capable of calling him out on his tendency to beat himself up emotionally and for his occasional arrogance.
He may be stronger with them, but take them away any he will become stronger without them. Harry needs to grow in strength. So take away support to make him grow and give it back in the end to make him even stronger after he has grown.
I'm pretty sure that she'll be restored to peak physical power as one of them and she also got some sweet immortality out of the deal. So, yeah, power-up achieved.
Peak physical is where she was at in SG so no power up there. And Einherjar are not immortal, they died in PT and BG. Wereguild was paid for their deaths
Edit: fixed a mistake. I said BG instead of SG for peak physical performance. Thanks for pointing it out.
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He may be stronger with them, but take them away any he will become stronger without them. Harry needs to grow in strength. So take away support to make him grow and give it back in the end to make him even stronger after he has grown.
Peak physical is where she was at in BG so no power up there. And Einherjar are not immortal, they died in PT and BG. Wereguild was paid for their deaths
According to legend they die but get resurrected again on time for the big party at night.
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He may be stronger with them, but take them away any he will become stronger without them. Harry needs to grow in strength. So take away support to make him grow and give it back in the end to make him even stronger after he has grown.
Agree to disagree. I think he grows way better with the support of his friends, otherwise he begins to wallow in arrogant self-pity.
Peak physical is where she was at in BG so no power up there. And Einherjar are not immortal, they died in PT and BG. Wereguild was paid for their deaths
Uh, not sure which two last books you read, but Murphy was far from "peak physical condition", after the mauling she got from Nicodemus. Einherjar are immortal in the sense that they don't age anymore. Not immortal in the sense that they can't die again. Well, it seems, in the Dresden-verse. No guarantees that they are not able to come back again and again, like in the Magnus Chase books from Rick Riordan. We have no absolute certainty yet on how they function in the Dresden-verse.
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Uh, not sure which two last books you read, but Murphy was far from "peak physical condition", after the mauling she got from Nicodemus. Einherjar are immortal in the sense that they don't age anymore. Not immortal in the sense that they can't die again. Well, it seems, in the Dresden-verse. No guarantees that they are not able to come back again and again, like in the Magnus Chase books from Rick Riordan. We have no absolute certainty yet on how they function in the Dresden-verse.
Yes, a bunch of them were slaughtered in Battle Ground, but nothing was said about whether they go back to Valhalla, party, and return to fight another day or not.
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That's why I said something about the wereguild. I don't know if it would have to be paid if they are just able to come back.
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That's why I said something about the wereguild. I don't know if it would have to be paid if they are just able to come back.
I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that any wereguild is only paid after the first death.
Remember what Gard said, that Murphy would not return until she has faded from all living memory. So when they return, their immediate family and friends are dead, so no, no wereguild paid a second or third time.
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Yes, a bunch of them were slaughtered in Battle Ground, but nothing was said about whether they go back to Valhalla, party, and return to fight another day or not.
They certainly fought as if dead was only the start of a new party.
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I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that any wereguild is only paid after the first death.
Remember what Gard said, that Murphy would not return until she has faded from all living memory. So when they return, their immediate family and friends are dead, so no, no wereguild paid a second or third time.
Marcone was paid for their deaths in PT. They had already been dead once.
They certainly fought as if dead was only the start of a new party.
Ehh, I thought they fought like that because they were fighting their mortal enemies, the giants.
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Marcone was paid for their deaths in PT. They had already been dead once.
Ehh, I thought they fought like that because they were fighting their mortal enemies, the giants.
That too but would that be enough?
I think Vadderung can and will ressurect them as long as their shades are available and maybe some bodyparts. It is just the sensible thing to do and the way they fight and the probably mini,al draft nowadays he wouldn’t have that many left by now otherwise.
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That too but would that be enough?
I think Vadderung can and will ressurect them as long as their shades are available and maybe some bodyparts. It is just the sensible thing to do and the way they fight and the probably mini,al draft nowadays he wouldn’t have that many left by now otherwise.
Nah, it's why Mr. Sunshine and Odin have lunch every year. Part of it is for their fantasy draft. Helps sure up Odin's numbers. ;D
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I think they come back, but it costs something, so a weregild is in order. That's my theory until Jim says otherwise because it fits with the books and the legends.
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I think they come back, but it costs something, so a weregild is in order. That's my theory until Jim says otherwise because it fits with the books and the legends.
Odin has already paid them well, they've whooped it up in Valhalla for a number of years, when they come back, if there are descendants, they have no clue as to who they were or feel pain if they are killed again.
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Odin has already paid them well, they've whooped it up in Valhalla for a number of years, when they come back, if there are descendants, they have no clue as to who they were or feel pain if they are killed again.
The weregild doesn't go to their family. It went to Marcone, their lord/employer. I imagine keeping them from a final death costs Odin something. Therefore, it costs those that hire them something for them to die or to replace them.
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I think the clearest example/answer to this (though still muddy) is in Changes. Harry comments on seeing some of the men from the deeps. I took that as the ones that survived.
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I think the clearest example/answer to this (though still muddy) is in Changes. Harry comments on seeing some of the men from the deeps. I took that as the ones that survived.
I did not attached any meaning to it. It just confirmed those guys from the deep were einherjar.
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The weregild doesn't go to their family. It went to Marcone, their lord/employer. I imagine keeping them from a final death costs Odin something. Therefore, it costs those that hire them something for them to die or to replace them.
I don't think so, because without Odin, no Valhalla no Einherjar. Marcone hired them from Odin, so it seems to me that it is Marcone that has to pay if anyone pays, because they are Odin's people in his employ, so Marcone is responsible.
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The Fomor paid a weregild to Marcone at the end of PT for killing a bunch of the Einherjar. The Einherjar's family definitely doesn't get paid.
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The Fomor paid a weregild to Marcone at the end of PT for killing a bunch of the Einherjar. The Einherjar's family definitely doesn't get paid.
Did they?
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Corb did pay a weregild to Marcone for killing a bunch of his guys. I'm pretty sure the guys were repeatedly described as Einherjar. The paying of the weregild is probably in the last three of four chapters.
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Corb did pay a weregild to Marcone for killing a bunch of his guys. I'm pretty sure the guys were repeatedly described as Einherjar. The paying of the weregild is probably in the last three of four chapters.
They should get a bonus for dying. It shows commitment.
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Corb did pay a weregild to Marcone for killing a bunch of his guys. I'm pretty sure the guys were repeatedly described as Einherjar. The paying of the weregild is probably in the last three of four chapters.
Not in Peace Talks, but at the Accords meeting at the end of Battle Ground there was talk of the Fomor compensating the members for paying for the damages to the people of Chicago. I don't think Corb paid anything, not at this time. Why would he? At the end of Peace Talks he thought that he and the Titan would walk all over everyone including Marcone. At the end of Battle Ground he and his people were at war with Marcone and the rest of the members of the Accords. So where is the incentive to pay it?
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Nah, it's why Mr. Sunshine and Odin have lunch every year. Part of it is for their fantasy draft. Helps sure up Odin's numbers. ;D
Maybe as part of the Naughty/Nice discussion?
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On the subject of the Einherjar, there's precious little about their powers. For what it's worth, the Paranet Papers' write-up, has:
Powers: None. Really—they gain nothing from
being brought back to this world, except the
chance to fight as a mortal again. They’re very
highly trained combatants, however, with literally
centuries of experience at killing lots of
things. They don’t seem restricted by ancient
practices and are just as good with machine guns
and Kevlar as with axe and mail.
Weaknesses: They’re mortal. It’s possible that
they recover from injury faster than normal
people do, as a result of Odin’s blessing, but
that’s speculative.
The only other real data point we have is how Murphy's sparring partner in Ghost Story doesn't seem at all put out by her breaking his hand, which to me could imply that he expects it to heal up, but it's not dispositive.
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Not in Peace Talks, but at the Accords meeting at the end of Battle Ground there was talk of the Fomor compensating the members for paying for the damages to the people of Chicago.
What I'm talking about is definitely from PT. What I remember is that he paid a weregild after he showed up and killed a bunch of Marcone's guys. I haven't reread any of it yet, so I'm not sure that what I remember happened that way. I also don't have a digital copy right now, so I can't search easily.
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Not in Peace Talks, but at the Accords meeting at the end of Battle Ground there was talk of the Fomor compensating the members for paying for the damages to the people of Chicago. I don't think Corb paid anything, not at this time. Why would he? At the end of Peace Talks he thought that he and the Titan would walk all over everyone including Marcone. At the end of Battle Ground he and his people were at war with Marcone and the rest of the members of the Accords. So where is the incentive to pay it?
Not exactly. The talk at the end of Battle Ground was the Accords members agreeing to pay the people of Chicago -- then to take those expenses out of the Fomor by force, vis a vis, beating the snot out of them and taking their stuff.
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What I'm talking about is definitely from PT. What I remember is that he paid a weregild after he showed up and killed a bunch of Marcone's guys. I haven't reread any of it yet, so I'm not sure that what I remember happened that way. I also don't have a digital copy right now, so I can't search easily.
Even if Vadderung raised them again that wouldn’t stop Marcone from asking weregeld. Not doing so would look weak and he might owe Vadderung for it anyway.
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Not exactly. The talk at the end of Battle Ground was the Accords members agreeing to pay the people of Chicago -- then to take those expenses out of the Fomor by force, vis a vis, beating the snot out of them and taking their stuff.
I call that a sort of weregeld, it is also called reparations for all the damage they caused. The Accords is paying it because they violated the hospitality laws, a big deal.. Now they are looking for the Fomor to reimburse them.
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I call that a sort of weregeld, it is also called reparations for all the damage they caused. The Accords is paying it because they violated the hospitality laws, a big deal.. Now they are looking for the Fomor to reimburse them.
Which is fair. They started it.
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Peace Talks, Chapter 29, Page 278:
"Read your own laws, woman," Corb spat. "These hirelings were no members of a house, not vassals or lackeys. They're chattel at best." Corb turned to Marcone and with a contemptuous flick sent a velvet bag sailing through the air. It landed in front of Gard with an unmistakable metallic tinkle. "Your weregild, little man."
On 273 (Ch. 28) a bunch of valets, staff, and one security guard are gunned down by the Fomor.
Ch. 21:
The staff behind the buffet was an Einherjar.
Based on chapters 28 and 21, I thought the staff were Einherjar. If I had an e-book, I'd search "red jacket" "valet" and maybe "staff" if I was willing to have to skip all the references to a wizard's staff.
Ch. 19, on Einherjar:
Harry: "They don't mind dying. They've had practice."
Ebeneezer: "Consider them to be the most dangerous mortal warriors on the planet" ... "They are."