ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 03:04:49 AM
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The Grigori/Gabriel theories survive. Were there any other specific Angel/Fallen names or identities in the running?
(I'm sticking with him being a transubstantiated Gabriel who's Grace is empowering Demonreach and Alfred is the vessel, but I'm open to hearing other updated theories)
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I might be wrong, but wasn't he meant to be Rafael in those theories?
I'm curious though how they stand up with recent information.
How do you reconcile the whole "watcher" angel with an Archangel? Or another way, why do you think Mac might be an Archangel and not merely an Angel?
Seems to me an Angel has enough raw power to create/power Demonreach if that is the case. But I'm interested to hear thoughts.
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I might be wrong, but wasn't he meant to be Rafael in those theories?
I'm curious though how they stand up with recent information.
How do you reconcile the whole "watcher" angel with an Archangel? Or another way, why do you think Mac might be an Archangel and not merely an Angel?
Seems to me an Angel has enough raw power to create/power Demonreach if that is the case. But I'm interested to hear thoughts.
Ah, right, Raphael. I'd just read Gabriel in another thread and it stuck in my head. But yeah, Raphael, the archangel that created Dudael, the prison on earth to hold Azazel.
But what about other ideas? That one was never popular, and people seemed to like the Grigori ties with 'Watcher'.
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I agree Rafael would have made more sense (note, for some reason Jim uses that spelling not your spelling - I have no idea why).
I don't have any new theory but I heard one about how he might be a servant of Uriel, called Shamsiel (I think).
I am looking into other possibilities.
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You are naming archangels, none of them are retired. Here are the names of watchers I came
across.
The names of the Watchers
According to the Book of Enoch, exactly 200 Watchers fell to Earth to take human wives. It names 20 of these, explaining that each one was a leader in a group of 10. In his book From the Ashes of Angels, Andrew Collins names a few others, and other reference works corroborate some of the names given in these sources, sometimes with alternate spellings. Through these various sources, I have collected information on what some of these named Watchers taught to mankind. Where there was a variation in wording, I have included both wordings.
According to Collins, there is no complete record of the names of all 200 Watchers. Most of the names included in Enoch are not included in other books, apocryphal or otherwise; in fact, very few of the others appear inother mythological texts; these include Azazel and Kokabel (Shemyaza is a central character in Storm Constantine's Grigori triology). Azazel is a curious example; although the Watchers, in the beginning of Enoch, swear to Shemyaza, the clear leader, that they will not change their minds about descending. But later, Azazel takes the brunt of the blame for what happens (to his credit, he taught more forbidden items to humankind than the others). He was thrown into the canyon of Duadel, and pinned with sharp rocks, with his face covered. In the Biblical book Leviticus, he is recreated as a desert creature to whom the ancient Israelites dedicated their scapegoats:
"Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the lord to make atonement for it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel."
In still later times, Azazel is considered a demon, and is occasionally identified as the devil -- or as one of his chieftains.
Kokabel, or Kakabel, also appears in Jewish folklore as a powerful angel who is in charge of the stars and constellations. He is considered by some to be a holy angel; by others, a fallen one. It is said that he commands 365,000 lesser spirits and teaches astrology to his fellow angels.
Sariel is known under many names, but this one translates to "God's command." Some say he is the angel of death; he is named as the one who retrieved the soul of Moses from Mount Sinai. He is also called by some a "prince of the presence" and an angel of healing. His name appears in Gnostic amulets and it is said that when he's invoked he manifests in the form of an ox; according to the Cabala, he is one of the seven angels that rule the earth. He is also associated with the skies and is in charge of the zodiac sign of Aries and instructs others on the course of the Moon. In occult circles he is one of the nine angels of the summer equinox and can protect against the evil eye.
What follows is as complete a list of the Watchers' names as I can find; I will add names as I discover more of them.
1. Semyaza, Shemyaza, Semjaza, Semiaza, Samyaza, Shemhazai
"Taught enchantments and root-cuttings."
2. Azazel, Azazyel, Azaziel
"Taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and of all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered."
"Taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures."
3. Amazarak
"Taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots."
4. Armers, Armeros, Armaros
"Taught the solution of sorcery."
"Taught the resolving of enchantments."
5. Barkayal, Baraqijal, Baraqel
"Taught the observers of the stars."
"Taught astrology."
6. Kokabel, Kawkabel, Kakabel
"Taught the science of the constellations."
7. Ezeqeel, Ezekeel
"Taught the knowledge of the clouds."
8. Araqiel, Arakiel
"Taught the signs of the earth."
9. Shamsiel, Shamshiel
"Taught the signs of the sun."
10. Sariel,, Suriel, Zerachiel, Saraquel, Asardel
"Taught the motion of the moon."
"Taught the course of the moon."
11. Akibeel
"Taught signs."
12. Tamiel
"Taught astronomy."
13. Penemue
"Taught the bitter and the sweet, the use of ink and paper."
14. Kasdeja, Kisdeja
"Taught the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away."
15. Gadreel
"Introduced weapons of war."
16. Ramuell
17. Danel
18. Azkeel
19. Saraknyal
20. Asael
21. Batraal
22. Anane
23. Zavebe
24. Samsaveel
25. Ertael
26. Turel
27. Yomvael
28. Urakabarameel
The many names of the Nephilim
"The Nefilim ('Fallen Ones') bore many other tribal names, such as Emim ('Terrors'), Repha'im ('Weakeners'), Gibborim ('Giant Heroes'), Zamzummim ('Achievers'), Anakim ('Long-necked' or 'Wearers of Necklaces'), Awwim ('Devastators' or 'Serpents'). One of the Nefilim named Arba is said to have built the city of Hebron, called 'Kiriath-Arba' after him, and become the father of Anak whose three sons, Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai, were later expelled by Joshua's comrade Caleb. Since, however, arba means 'four' in Hebrew, Kiriath-Arba may have originally have meant 'City of Four,' a reference to its four quarters mythically connected with the Anakite clans: Anak himself and his 'sons' Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai."
- Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis
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You are naming archangels, none of them are retired.
I think the only thing we know canonically about them, or at least Raphael, is what Mab says in Small Favor.
The Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands.
The lack of the use of a name for him (as well as the others) leaves the door open for her to be referring to the Grace and its current bearer rather than Raphael. It'd be very Mab of her to not care that it's a different entity, as the Mantle/Grace fulfilling its role would be the important thing to her.
As for the Grigori, I thought there was one that taught humanity about fermentation and whatnot. I think others have mentioned him as a candidate before, but I can't remember the name. I'll have to look.
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As for the Grigori, I thought there was one that taught humanity about fermentation and whatnot. I think others have mentioned him as a candidate before, but I can't remember the name. I'll have to look.
That would fit Mac, and supposedly the watcher angel's sin was they fell in love with and married a mortal woman. Could see that also with Mac, since in every way he seems like a good person or former angel.
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I think the only thing we know canonically about them, or at least Raphael, is what Mab says in Small Favor.
We also know that Rafael or one of his lieutenants did the wards on the safe room in the Carpenter house.
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We also know that Rafael or one of his lieutenants did the wards on the safe room in the Carpenter house.
Except Rafael isn't a watcher angel, he is an archangel, that is when he isn't painting.. ::)
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We also know that Rafael or one of his lieutenants did the wards on the safe room in the Carpenter house.
Yup. It'd have to be a lieutenant for the theory. At least there's a window of potential.
Except Rafael isn't a watcher angel, he is an archangel, that is when he isn't painting.. ::)
Rafael isn't a Watcher angel, but he's heavily involved in their story. He appears in the Book of Enoch as the one to imprison Azazel the fallen Grigori in Dudael, the earthen prison. And if he did give up his Grace, and he's stuck powerless, then he's just as stuck on Earth as the other Grigori that were cursed to walk the earth until the end times.
I agree Rafael would have made more sense (note, for some reason Jim uses that spelling not your spelling - I have no idea why).
Looking at the info, the root 'rafa' means 'to tie', which comes up in the analysis of why he was chosen to imprison Azazel. And Raphael/Rafael in the series is the demon binding angel, so...
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No mention of the placard in the post mortem and ultimately we didn't see if anything even tried to get into Mac's. I would assume that Harry will leave the placard with Mac to give the Paranet crew a permanent safe haven,
should there be when there is another epic threat to the city. My thought at this point would be we'll see him defend his bar and patrons in the BAT.
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No mention of the placard in the post mortem and ultimately we didn't see if anything even tried to get into Mac's. I would assume that Harry will leave the placard with Mac to give the Paranet crew a permanent safe haven, should there be when there is another epic threat to the city. My thought at this point would be we'll see him defend his bar and patrons in the BAT.
You don't think they're going to use the castle as their safe haven? The Paranet was already using it as of Ghost Story, with Marcone letting Butters live there, and others come and go with a nursery and everything.
I could see where it might be a target, and he wouldn't want to jeopardize civilians during a battle. But he already took civilians in during a battle.
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Looking at the info, the root 'rafa' means 'to tie', which comes up in the analysis of why he was chosen to imprison Azazel. And Raphael/Rafael in the series is the demon binding angel, so...
I thought the name 'Raphael' means 'God heals', 'God has healed', or something to that effect?
Not sure about Rafael vs Raphael, but Rafael is the Spanish form (eg San Rafael, CA).
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Ever since Skin Game, my pet theory has been that Mac is Bob's father. Mythology says that Watchers are angels who produced offspring with humans. In the Dresdenverse angels are beings of pure soul, and we are told that pairings between spiritual entities and humans produce spirits of intellect. In mythological terminology Bob and Bonea are Nephilim.
So my scenario is that about 1000 years ago, angelic Mac fell in love with a human woman and they produced Bob. That caused him to fall from grace and transubstantiate into his current form. He's probably in Chicago to keep an eye on his son.
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I thought the name 'Raphael' means 'God heals', 'God has healed', or something to that effect?
Not sure about Rafael vs Raphael, but Rafael is the Spanish form (eg San Rafael, CA).
That's what I've always seen, but this entry for The Book of Giants (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Giants) mentions a dual meaning to the verb rafa, which is supposedly both 'to heal' and 'to tie'. If so, maybe Jim chose that spelling for a reason.
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Except Rafael isn't a watcher angel, he is an archangel.
Huh? I didn't say he was.
So my scenario is that about 1000 years ago, angelic Mac fell in love with a human woman and they produced Bob. That caused him to fall from grace and transubstantiate into his current form. He's probably in Chicago to keep an eye on his son.
Jim has said that he thought it was obvious who Bob's parents were. So if one is Mac, is the other Mab? Who else do we know from back then?
That's what I've always seen, but this entry for The Book of Giants (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Giants) mentions a dual meaning to the verb rafa, which is supposedly both 'to heal' and 'to tie'. If so, maybe Jim chose that spelling for a reason.
"To heal" and "to tie" make me think of "binding a wound." Which makes me think about binding a demon.
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And also of casting out demons as a form of healing.
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"To heal" and "to tie" make me think of "binding a wound." Which makes me think about binding a demon.
And also of casting out demons as a form of healing.
Exactly. The Book of Giants analysis compares the binding of demons to healing the earth of their infection.
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Jim has said that he thought it was obvious who Bob's parents were. So if one is Mac, is the other Mab? Who else do we know from back then?
That's my gut feeling. I don't have any direct evidence, but this exchange from Skin Game is what makes me think they have a past relationship.
Mac, bald, lean, and silent, stood behind the bar in his usual crisp white shirt and spotless apron. When Mab entered, he put down the rag he was using to polish the wooden bar, and bowed at the waist, somehow giving the gesture an accent of courtesy rather than obeisance.
“Barkeep,” Mab replied, and inclined her head considerably more deeply than she had to Nicodemus a few minutes before. “May your patrons be prosperous and honest.”
Mac, as a rule, rarely uttered multi-syllables. Today, he said, “May your scales always return to balance.”
Her mouth quirked at the corner and she said, “Flatterer.”
He smiled and nodded to me. “Harry.”
These are normally two of the most reserved characters in the series, but here it seems like they are flirting. It isn't just Mac's sudden loquaciousness that strikes me as unusual. Mab's response is her equivalent of a teenage girl blushing and giggling. I can't recall either of them behaving quite like this with anyone else.
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You don't think they're going to use the castle as their safe haven? The Paranet was already using it as of Ghost Story, with Marcone letting Butters live there, and others come and go with a nursery and everything.
I could see where it might be a target, and he wouldn't want to jeopardize civilians during a battle. But he already took civilians in during a battle.
I think they will use the Castle as a safe haven as well, but I think there's a couple of reasons it will stay with Mac: 1) logistically it makes sense to not put all your eggs in one basket (ie overpower the Castle with the placard on top of it's already formidable defenses). Additionally, you'd have to transfer the placard over to Harry, and Harry already has enough targets on his back, he's not really the best person (at least in the perspective of those living in the Dresden-verse). Mac on the other hand isn't the high profile target Harry is, and he also has the benefit of giving the Paranet an alternative if the Castle is compromised; 2) from a literary standpoint, it's sort of a Chekhov's gun with Mac sealing the protection with his blood. True, that could have just been Jim's way of showing us what Mac really is, and there's nothing more to it, but I think ultimately this is setting the stage for the end-game and we'll see Mac and the placard come into play.
Just my thoughts anyway :)
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Mac is also official neutral territory. That does not matter for the outsiders but it has some meaning for most other powers.
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I agree about what Professor Q says about Mab-Mac exchange.
Also yes, I agree it would make sense for Harry to have a protection for minor talents outside of the Castle and away from Harry. Much safer.
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I agree about what Professor Q says about Mab-Mac exchange.
Also yes, I agree it would make sense for Harry to have a protection for minor talents outside of the Castle and away from Harry. Much safer.
Especially when an accord member like Marcone or the white council targets him.
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Yes. That too.
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I don't know, the bar can hold what, maybe a couple dozen people? And the castle could hold several times that? I feel like at the rate Chicago is going, they're going to need a bigger place to hide people. Maybe they need to buy the building mac is in and make it neutral and protected.
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Thirteen tables and thirteen bar stools. Anybody know how many seats at a table? (Now this would only give us the seating capacity, not the number of people you can cram in there).
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I don't know, the bar can hold what, maybe a couple dozen people? And the castle could hold several times that? I feel like at the rate Chicago is going, they're going to need a bigger place to hide people. Maybe they need to buy the building mac is in and make it neutral and protected.
If what Harry thinks about the wards of the castle are true, that there are many that were created by Merlin himself and that he can make the place almost as impregnable at Demonreach when it's defenses are up, then he doesn't need the Placard. Mac's place needs it, it is a place of neutrality, yet there are some who do not respect that, this gives it an added layer of protection.
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Yes, and I think it is for those already clued on the supernatural (that are comparatively not so much)
Oh, this reminds me a thing, I was so glad to see Artemis Block again! I always liked him and hoped he understood that when Harry insulted them he was trying to save his life.