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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Shift8 on October 01, 2020, 12:42:21 AM
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Notable facts and theories if my memory serves:
-Mab knew the Merlin of old when she was mortal and IIRC there was some kind of romance hinted at. Correct me if I am misremembering the latter part.
-I think that Mab became Mab because of some shit that went down the original white council. I think those reasons were analogous to the desperation that caused Harry to become the Knight.
-Harry is a star born, and we know he was bred to be one by the WC.
-I think the WC had some nefarious reasons for breeding him as such, or at the least some of the members did. Not all members of the WC may have the same motives.
-I think that whatever this is regarding the star born, it goes way back to whatever happened with Mab back in the day when she was mortal or when she became Mab.
-The laws the white council are draconian. This is been a theme from the beginning of the books and it has now come to a head. I do not think this is a coincidence that this happened at the same time as we learned more about Harry being star-born and Mab suddenly became more chummy.
My main theory:
I think Mab is not actually a villain. I think she became Mab because of some kind of BS that went down with the original WC back when the original Merlin existed. I think that the modern council with its draconian laws and general stupidity is in some way the product of what happened back in the day and is a bastardization of the original intend of the council. I think that the current WC had some kind of nefarious or at least misguided plans for Harry as a star born, probably to create a new Merlin. A true Merlin like the old one, who was probably also a star born and that's why he was so strong. Whatever shit happened way back in the day probably had something to do with this, and possibly demon reach. I think Mab has from the very beginning been watching over Harry so that she could get him away from the council, and what better way to do this than make him her Knight so that she could control him and also distance him from the council. I think that she isnt evil though, and in fact wanted a morally good Winter Knight. I think this is why she always threatens to break him but never actually does it, she is testing him to see if he has the character she thinks he has. I think she wants to do this because she realizes that Harry as a star born has the potential to usher in a new Era and she wants to make sure he is worthy of said power and is not corrupted by the council so that he can reform the council and restore it to what it was intended to be by become the new Merlin. In other words, Harry can being balance to the force. I also think that this has obviously been in motion well before the events of the story and that Harry's mother knew about the evil intentions of the white council and thats why she was such a maverick. I think the WC killed Harrys mother, probably because she didnt want to go along with the plan (among other things) and that something along these line is part of why no one has told Harry anything about being starborn. It is also possible that the black council is not entirely evil, and may be a group of people who include both evil practitioners and also people who are rebels against the nature of the current council....and I think Cowl is somehow involved in all this.
Yes I know some of this is spitballing but I had one of those Eureka moments and I wanted to type it all out. What do you guys think? Does anyone have any other facts to support this?
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Interesting ideas!
I think that's more than just Mab's agenda though. One Eye is probably behind it too. Probably worth considering what they get out of it. Remember, Mab is good for humanity like fire is good for cauterising wounds. Too much Mab, world goes bad. Titania has a purpose after all.
As for the starborn thing, I heard in one of Jim's most recent interviews that the starborn thing has been going on since before even most of the supernatural folk can remember. He somewhat implied (I believe) that it's been going since the Fall. As in, the Fall of Lucifer. I don't think he threw in the whole 666 thing for nothing.
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I concur with most of this. We will definitely not be completely correct, Jim loves to see us squirm, but we are headed in the right direction. Harry has been forced to deal with increasingly dark stuff, and for the entire series it has been about him knowing where the line is. So yeah, Mab testing Harry tracks, also conflict with the WC makes a good deal of sense, as we have seen how screwed up it is with every interaction we get.
I agree that Mab is not Evil, imo just a really weary/tired battle hardened General who has been fighting for mortal kind for millennia, and won't take crap from some know nothing uppity mortal much less a herd of cowardly wizards. She has referred to herself and Harry as wolves more than once, so she completely sees how the WC has degenerated and despises them for it.
Edit:
That being said, I can't see Harry being the defacto Merlin of the WC 2.0. He would be mostly symbolic figure head than anything else.
Also, I have serious concerns on whether or not he will actually survive. Being a fulcrum for existence doesn't tend to work out for the fulcrum. We know that these stories are his journals which does seem to indicate he will live, but there are so many ways that could actually come about. I.e. he dies in the trilogy but due to his foray in GS he becomes something similar to Bob, etc...
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IMO, it was pretty blatantly told us to our faces in this book that Mab was basically a good person who gradually had to rationalize most of her altruism away. Although not all... BG was really a good indicator that she has hidden her good side deep down and sometimes lets it out, in the guise of doing something which benefits her.
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it's also worth noting - that as the books go on, Mab is opening up to Harry more. We are getting more and more small bits of her being "a person" as opposed to being the Queen of Air and Darkness. Look at the Christmas story at the end of BG (where, I might add again...no mention of Mister. I'm a little miffed on that point).
She's really made herself more vulnerable to Harry...likely more than to anyone in a long time I imagine. Obviously, she still has to be "Queen" to his "Knight" but, often in books you have royalty becoming friends with a trusted guard or some-such. The scale is just bigger here.
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it's also worth noting - that as the books go on, Mab is opening up to Harry more. We are getting more and more small bits of her being "a person" as opposed to being the Queen of Air and Darkness. Look at the Christmas story at the end of BG (where, I might add again...no mention of Mister. I'm a little miffed on that point).
She's really made herself more vulnerable to Harry...likely more than to anyone in a long time I imagine. Obviously, she still has to be "Queen" to his "Knight" but, often in books you have royalty becoming friends with a trusted guard or some-such. The scale is just bigger here.
Mister is sleeping in the castle. He needs to get used to his new territory.
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Mister is sleeping in the castle. He needs to get used to his new territory.
OMG. Per WoJ, nothing can kill Mister. Mister lives in the castle. Harry has the Placard. The individual bonded with the Placard has to be defeated before the place can fall.
The castle is now the most well-defended place in all of creation.
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Update to theory
This is in line with another thread also recently started:
-I think the WC bred harry by submitting his mother to the White Court to have her raped on a specific date so that Harry could be made for other reasons. I dont think she ran off with Raith, but rather a Bargain was made with the White Court by the WC. Not sure what the bargain entailed or what the White Court got out of it. Perhaps it has something to do with Thomas? I think Harry's mother was chosen for this by the WC because of something to do with her blood line or her power as a wizard, and possibly also because of how much of a rebel she was against the WC.
-Additionally, I think that Mab heavily influenced Harry's mother and that the rebelliousness of his mother may had had alot to do with Mab teaching his mother about whatevr happened between her and the Merlin and the Council thousands of years ago.
-I am not sure if McCoy knows about this. Probably not, if he does he has some insane cognitive dissonance. Or maybe he was threatened just like he is being threatened with with Treason if he doesnt enforce the laws on Harry. Maybe his intense hatred for Vampires is because he really thinks it was all them, or maybe he knows the WC was involved and blaming the white court exclusively is he way of dealing with it.
-After Harry was Born, his father was murdered by the WC and he was put in the care of Dumorn to be trained as some kind thug for the WC. As the other poster has said.
-Stonehenge has something to do with the stars and stones, and Stonehenge is a magic circle.
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it's also worth noting - that as the books go on, Mab is opening up to Harry more. We are getting more and more small bits of her being "a person" as opposed to being the Queen of Air and Darkness. Look at the Christmas story at the end of BG (where, I might add again...no mention of Mister. I'm a little miffed on that point).
She's really made herself more vulnerable to Harry...likely more than to anyone in a long time I imagine. Obviously, she still has to be "Queen" to his "Knight" but, often in books you have royalty becoming friends with a trusted guard or some-such. The scale is just bigger here.
Partly because Harry doesn't react to her like she is the Wicked Witch of the West anymore. Which in a way is something Eb warned him about. That she will suck him in and then get her hooks into him so deep he becomes a slave to her bidding.
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OMG. Per WoJ, nothing can kill Mister. Mister lives in the castle. Harry has the Placard. The individual bonded with the Placard has to be defeated before the place can fall.
The castle is now the most well-defended place in all of creation.
Hilarious, I truly hope that is the case. Knowing Harry though he would make himself the one bonded with the Placard.
Update to theory
This is in line with another thread also recently started:
-I think the WC bred harry by submitting his mother to the White Court to have her raped on a specific date so that Harry could be made for other reasons. I dont think she ran off with Raith, but rather a Bargain was made with the White Court by the WC. Not sure what the bargain entailed or what the White Court got out of it. Perhaps it has something to do with Thomas? I think Harry's mother was chosen for this by the WC because of something to do with her blood line or her power as a wizard, and possibly also because of how much of a rebel she was against the WC.
-Additionally, I think that Mab heavily influenced Harry's mother and that the rebelliousness of his mother may had had alot to do with Mab teaching his mother about whatever happened between her and the Merlin and the Council thousands of years ago.
-I am not sure if McCoy knows about this. Probably not, if he does he has some insane cognitive dissonance. Or maybe he was threatened just like he is being threatened with with Treason if he doesnt enforce the laws on Harry. Maybe his intense hatred for Vampires is because he really thinks it was all them, or maybe he knows the WC was involved and blaming the white court exclusively is he way of dealing with it.
-After Harry was Born, his father was murdered by the WC and he was put in the care of Dumorn to be trained as some kind thug for the WC. As the other poster has said.
-Stonehenge has something to do with the stars and stones, and Stonehenge is a magic circle.
Yeesh, that's a dark theory. It does sound more and more like it wasn't just Maggie's idea to conceive Harry. Everyone keeps saying and hinting how he was bred and shaped to be a weapon. Some curious parallels/call backs in BG. Mab and Eb have the same argument as Mother Winter and Summer i.e. Harry might be Winter's Weapon but it isn't Winter's world. Also, the whole line that Nemesis says about an apocalypse being a state of mind - massive call back almost word for word to Death Masks and Nicodemus and Michael.
I doubt Eb would have agreed to his daughter being used as a breeding mule. I suspect they kept it from him. Eb does not react well to being threatened, worse than Harry. But it will be interesting to see who knew (I'd say pretty much all of them but him). Remember, Eb wasn't Senior Council back then.
The Stonehenge theory is pretty old from memory, old as the phrase "Stars and Stones" is in the series. Interestingly, Stonehenge isn't the only stone circle out there. I wonder if Jim will include others.
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I doubt Eb would have agreed to his daughter being used as a breeding mule. I suspect they kept it from him. Eb does not react well to being threatened, worse than Harry. But it will be interesting to see who knew (I'd say pretty much all of them but him). Remember, Eb wasn't Senior Council back then.
I doubt that Margaret would have agreed to being one, but then she met Malcolm. A man she loved and married, and wanted to have his baby.. Family planning wasn't a big deal after that, a lot of couples especially if money is tight, [Malcolm wasn't a rich man, and I don't know if Margaret made a living from her wizardry] planned for the conception of a child.
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I doubt that Margaret would have agreed to being one, but then she met Malcolm. A man she loved and married, and wanted to have his baby.. Family planning wasn't a big deal after that, a lot of couples especially if money is tight, [Malcolm wasn't a rich man, and I don't know if Margaret made a living from her wizardry] planned for the conception of a child.
Well, unless we go back to the original theory that Maggie was in on the "create a Starborn" plan. Initially, most people seemed to think it was HER plan. Which it might still be.
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Based on what Eb mentioned about the dinner party, which seems to be relevant, ya know? I can't remember what book that was mentioned in, though.
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Changes. It's revealed that Ebenezer was the target of Ariana because she knew. Think it was in the denoument.
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Another angle I hadn't considered is that it might have been Maggie's plan as a way of life verthorwing the council by making a super wizard with powers on the same level as Drakul. This might be why the WC has always hated Dresden much.
Mab in this is still involved and I think from way way back, but she might have been assisting maggie the entire time and is now assisting Dresden.
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Well, unless we go back to the original theory that Maggie was in on the "create a Starborn" plan. Initially, most people seemed to think it was HER plan. Which it might still be.
The way Lash told it, Margaret didn't arrive at that plan until she met Malcolm. So I'm thinking she knew about Drakul and how he turned out as a star born. If she was indeed pressed to carry out the plan, she decided if it had to be, she was either going to use a different tactic or not do it at all. She searched for a good man with a good heart and pure soul in hopes that her child would inherit at least some of that from him. Harry apparently did, and I've written about this before, it isn't for nothing that Harry is repeatedly told by people who knew his father that he inherited his good heart. I also believe Malcolm was also in on the plan and agreed to it, that is why he tells Harry in his dreams of him, that he is sorry that he and his mother put so much on him.. Margaret too, in the soul gaze said she was sorry that so much is being asked of Harry.
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Interesting theory I saw on Reddit (apologies if its on here somewhere as well), but a lot of the stories about the original Merlin is that he is the son of a mortal and an incubus. White Court vamps are referred to frequently as succubi which is the feminine version so the theory was that Mab was looking toward a possible second generation Merlin with the Harry/Lara wedding. It's an interesting theory if nothing else.
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Interesting theory I saw on Reddit (apologies if its on here somewhere as well), but a lot of the stories about the original Merlin is that he is the son of a mortal and an incubus. White Court vamps are referred to frequently as succubi which is the feminine version so the theory was that Mab was looking toward a possible second generation Merlin with the Harry/Lara wedding. It's an interesting theory if nothing else.
According to Bulfinch's Mythology
Merlin was the son of a damsel seduced by a fiend, but baptized by Blaise, and so rescued him from the power of Satan. He became an adept at necromancy.
In relation to the "British Prisoner" theory on Demonreach;
The Lady of the Lake entangled him in a thornbush by means of spells, and there he still sleeps, though his voice may be heard sometimes.
Could it be that Mab is the Lady of the Lake and she entrapped Merlin on Demonreach? There he sleeps, but he will communicate from time to time.
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According to Bulfinch's Mythology
Merlin was the son of a damsel seduced by a fiend, but baptized by Blaise, and so rescued him from the power of Satan. He became an adept at necromancy.
In relation to the "British Prisoner" theory on Demonreach;
The Lady of the Lake entangled him in a thornbush by means of spells, and there he still sleeps, though his voice may be heard sometimes.
Could it be that Mab is the Lady of the Lake and she entrapped Merlin on Demonreach? There he sleeps, but he will communicate from time to time.
I thought maybe Lea was
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I thought maybe Lea was
That is possible too since her role back when Mab was Winter Lady according to Jim was the same as Jennygreenteeth.
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Changes. It's revealed that Ebenezer was the target of Ariana because she knew. Think it was in the denoument.
Yup, that was it. Thanks.
So it's combining these:
Ebenezer shook his head. "A dinner. Maggie - my Maggie -
asked me to a dinner. She'd just taken up with that Raith
bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn't warn me. They had
some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires
thought I was just Maggie's mentor, then." He sighed. "I
wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn't want it, either.
And we fought."
"She did," Ebenezer confirmed. "I don't know why, but for
some reason she turned away from her previous associates -
including Justin DuMorne. After that nowhere was safe for her.
She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for
perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders
regarding her as well."
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the
circumstances of your birth - because of why you were
born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord
Raith for a reason."
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"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of
circumstances that would have given a child born under them
the potential to weild power over Outsiders."
"Oh, wizard," Drakul chided me. "Their immaculate
beardlinesses have you in the dark even now? As one
starborn to another, I must say it seems unseemly in the
extreme."
...
Something ugly flickered in that smile for a few beats.
Then Drakul shook his head. "I would tell you to ask of your
own White Council what they aren't willing to tell you, what
they bred you for, and what they expect you to do."
Martha continued as if I hadn't spoken. "Bitter. Angry.
Obsessive."
Ebenezer frowned. "Seems to me he has good reason to be.
You and the rest of the Senior Council saw to that."
Martha shook her head. "You know what he was meant to
be. He's too great a risk."
"We owe you," he confirmed. "But it ain't about debt. There's
some secrets that do worse than get you killed. A whole hell
of a lot worse." He eyed me. "You need to trust us."
...
"You get through tonight," Listens-to-Wind said, "you give
me a little time. I'll be your advocate. I'll speak on your behalf
to the others."
...
"I'm a wizard, Hoss. Which means I'm arrogant." He smiled
a little. "But not that arrogant. That's how big this is, boy.
I, a senior wizard of the White Council, don't think I'm smart
enough to make this call alone."
...
He snorted through his nose. "The people I need to talk to?
Make it a year."
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We know that these stories are his journals which does seem to indicate he will live, but there are so many ways that could actually come about. I.e. he dies in the trilogy but due to his foray in GS he becomes something similar to Bob, etc...
The most likely answer to how Harry could write the journals after everything happens and be dead is explained in PT. He has spoken with Mort and Uriel to ensure he will leave a ghost to watch over Maggie.
Interesting theory I saw on Reddit (apologies if its on here somewhere as well), but a lot of the stories about the original Merlin is that he is the son of a mortal and an incubus. White Court vamps are referred to frequently as succubi which is the feminine version so the theory was that Mab was looking toward a possible second generation Merlin with the Harry/Lara wedding. It's an interesting theory if nothing else.
He probably would have to have been one whose first time was a true love experience. Jim has said that a wamp practitioner can't get to the level of a White Council wizard.
@Griffyn612: But whose why and whose reason? It wasn't necessarily Maggie's.
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@Griffyn612: But whose why and whose reason? It wasn't necessarily Maggie's.
If we assume there's a major event that has been foretold on the horizon during Maggie's time (aka the BAT), and it's known that Starborn are integral to reality surviving, then I could see Maggie wanting a Starborn on her side, sharing her mindset, rather than the mindset of Drakul or the White Council (Rashid has been theorized as being a Starborn) or whatever other factions have one.
So she decides to make one, but needs help from nefarious powers to make it happen. She puts together her Dark Council, tries to recruit Eb but fails, and proceeds. In the process, she realizes Raith is using her and has no intention of advancing her cause, so she escapes and goes on the run.
Then Malcolm, pregnancy, pending death, request to Morgan to watch over Harry, death, continued monitoring by the Council because she told them everything, Malcolm's death, Harry's disappearance, then rediscovery after DuMorne's death. Seniors then decide to keep him around just in case.
The question is, did the Seniors secret him away from Morgan and into DuMorne's hands, to forge their own weapon, only DuMorne went too far and ruined it?
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If we assume there's a major event that has been foretold on the horizon during Maggie's time (aka the BAT), and it's known that Starborn are integral to reality surviving, then I could see Maggie wanting a Starborn on her side, sharing her mindset, rather than the mindset of Drakul or the White Council (Rashid has been theorized as being a Starborn) or whatever other factions have one.
So she decides to make one, but needs help from nefarious powers to make it happen. She puts together her Dark Council, tries to recruit Eb but fails, and proceeds. In the process, she realizes Raith is using her and has no intention of advancing her cause, so she escapes and goes on the run.
Then Malcolm, pregnancy, pending death, request to Morgan to watch over Harry, death, continued monitoring by the Council because she told them everything, Malcolm's death, Harry's disappearance, then rediscovery after DuMorne's death. Seniors then decide to keep him around just in case.
The question is, did the Seniors secret him away from Morgan and into DuMorne's hands, to forge their own weapon, only DuMorne went too far and ruined it?
Lea’s role in all this is crucial. Margaret probably saw the gates at some point because she compared notes with the gatekeeper and was close to Lea.
At a certain point she understood the purpose of winter and decided to help. It also was part of her deal with Lea. Her close relations with the Sidhe make no sense otherwise.
A star born was both necessary and dangerous during the next apocalypse.
She decided to gave birth to one. Or the child being star born was part of her deal with Lea.
But a life story of Margaret is incomplete without Lea.
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The most likely answer to how Harry could write the journals after everything happens and be dead is explained in PT. He has spoken with Mort and Uriel to ensure he will leave a ghost to watch over Maggie.
No, it doesn't. All Harry was saying is once he decided to be a father, he made arrangements with Mort and Uriel so he could remain as sort of a guardian angel for his daughter, he is neither an angel nor is he a ghost per say.
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Lea’s role in all this is crucial. Margaret probably saw the gates at some point because she compared notes with the gatekeeper and was close to Lea.
At a certain point she understood the purpose of winter and decided to help. It also was part of her deal with Lea. Her close relations with the Sidhe make no sense otherwise.
A star born was both necessary and dangerous during the next apocalypse.
She decided to gave birth to one. Or the child being star born was part of her deal with Lea.
But a life story of Margaret is incomplete without Lea.
I'm not sure where Leah comes into things. Obviously she was tasked with watching over Harry, and was acquainted with Leah, but I don't know if Leah was involved in the Starborn plot, or aware but not involved, or clued in after Maggie went on the run.
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No, it doesn't. All Harry was saying is once he decided to be a father, he made arrangements with Mort and Uriel so he could remain as sort of a guardian angel for his daughter, he is neither an angel nor is he a ghost per say.
No but he can stay as a shade just as in ghost story and if Maggie has talent which is almost certainly the case an experienced wizard shade would be of great help. He can live in bonea's skull so it would be one happy family.
Much like sir Stuart for Morty actually.
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I'm not sure where Leah comes into things. Obviously she was tasked with watching over Harry, and was acquainted with Leah, but I don't know if Leah was involved in the Starborn plot, or aware but not involved, or clued in after Maggie went on the run.
Margaret and Lea were BFF's really
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Margaret and Lea were BFF's really
Were they? What do we really know about their relationship?
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Were they? What do we really know about their relationship?
Margaret was called LaFey and Lea was her only Sidhe contact mentioned. Lea knows intimate things about how she sees life and how that changed. From every small thing I read I get the impression they were pretty close.
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@Griffyn612: Margaret is the obvious answer to who had the reason and why. It's not necessarily the answer. It could have been intervention by someone else. Drakul states that the White Council is behind Harry's birth.
Margaret was called LaFey because of the amount of time she spent in the Nevernever and her facility with predicting ways. It also appears the Erlking knew her.
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I'm not sure where Leah comes into things. Obviously she was tasked with watching over Harry, and was acquainted with Leah, but I don't know if Leah was involved in the Starborn plot, or aware but not involved, or clued in after Maggie went on the run.
I'd say that she was involved, I think it is very unusual for one of the Fae, let alone second in command to Mab, would involve herself at all with mortals unless it was vital that the child survive.
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Margaret was called LaFey and Lea was her only Sidhe contact mentioned. Lea knows intimate things about how she sees life and how that changed. From every small thing I read I get the impression they were pretty close.
I'm not saying they weren't, I'm just not sure how to define their relationship. Maggie seems to have known everyone, and everyone seems to have known her thoughts on matters. Kind of like Harry. But I would hesitate to call him friends with everyone that knows him.
I'm interested in learning more at some point.