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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: cbarrett76 on September 30, 2020, 09:02:55 PM
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Battle Ground spoliers below:
So Mab basically tells Harry that if she falls in the battle her final order to him would be to kill Molly because she worries what kind of "Mab" Molly would be. But when Harry took the mantle of winter knight, wasn't one of his conditions that Mab never order him to harm his friends or family? Did she just give him an "out" for the Mantle if he wants to take it? Am I missing something?
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Yeah, I think this would be covered by that, but I don't think Mab swore not to give such orders, I think Harry made not having to accept such orders a condition of his becoming Winter Knight.
A tenuous distinction for a human, but I think it matters for the Fae... I think Mab literally couldn't have said it if she'd sworn not to.
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in my PDF it's
Changes - pg 446
"...And you give me your word you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."
Thougn Mab never expressly agreed to it. But could be considered part of the agreement since it was noted as a condition of his acceptance.
It's all kinda murky with Fae.
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A lawyer might argue that the letter of that contract merely states Harry not "lift his hand" against "those he loves", both of which are too vague and also that killing Molly or "those he loves" doesn't necessarily require him to lift his hand. Dresden would be an awful lawyer.
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yeah but a contract also requires a "meeting of the minds" in order to be consider valid, e.g. Mab knew exactly what he meant, his intent and went with it anyway.
Still, we're not talking Magical Law...and Fae are masters at twisting it all to suit them.
But in any event, Mab knows that Harry is his own person and he will not go quietly into the night if she gives him an order like that. Still, for her to tell him to do it, you know there are some possibly dire consequences...
But lets hope by the end of things, Harry can untangle himself and Molly out of Winter's grasp.
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in my PDF it's
Changes - pg 446
"...And you give me your word you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."
Thougn Mab never expressly agreed to it. But could be considered part of the agreement since it was noted as a condition of his acceptance.
Hmm. So I wonder how she could say that at all. "The stars shall fall from the sky when Mab keeps not her word" IIRC.
Possibly there is some trick involving it being a conditional order - "Should I fall". IE it's not really an order until Mab is dead, and therefore breaking her word is impossible/irrelevant?
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That's actually a good point.
Plus, I wonder if the order of a dead queen is still binding...
and it could also have been more of a dire warning than an actual order. By ordering it, Mab is putting it in Harry's head and knows that he is going to look into the reason for her order.
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Or it could be that it would have counted as that Favour Harry still owes her, and is not covered by his conditions for accepting the position of Winter Knight.
Harry is bad at this thinking stuff. He should concentrate on making things a'splode.
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Perhaps she is arguing for the greater good, should she fall, Molly isn't ready to be Queen, bad stuff will happen. But why couldn't Molly acknowledge that and step aside and let the mantle go to Lea?
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Harry said that if Mab forced him (I.E. Geas like why Fix and Lilly could not choose to help Dresden directly) to follow an order he would follow her order but would be maliciously compliant requiring her direct supervision at all times and become practically useless to her.
Which is not quite the same as convincing her to make a binding promise not to give orders of that nature.
I am guessing that the way Titania bound Lilly and Fix works a lot like the Winter Law Voice thing Molly used on the Driver. Presumably it is the sort of thing that has to be intentional and protection from that sort of thing is effectively what Dresden received with his mediocre knight threat.
What Mab says to Dresden in Battle Grounds has the option of being ignored by Dreaden, hence the "... you would be wise to follow" part of her statement.
Either she is not trying to magically bind him for some reason (could be respect of Dresden or honoring her implied agreement to not order him to raise his hand against those he loved) or she can not bind him to her will in this case (either she knows any binding will not survive her death or she actually can not because the forces that control Fae interactions recognized Dresden Terms for being her Knight as spirtually binding). Although it is possible their is something else going on there that I do not have enough pieces to put together.
However I do not think Mab broke her word to Dresden with the commentary about Killing Molly Carpenter. However I do think she may have damaged some of the feelings of actual loyalty and trust that he seems to be developing, although considering she is almost certainly aware of the possibility of damaging his respect for her with that exchange it does suggest something about how bad she thinks it could get if Molly became the Queen.
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However I do not think Mab broke her word to Dresden with the commentary about Killing Molly Carpenter. However I do think she may have damaged some of the feelings of actual loyalty and trust that he seems to be developing, although considering she is almost certainly aware of the possibility of damaging his respect for her with that exchange it does suggest something about how bad she thinks it could get if Molly became the Queen.
But if Mab is dead, is Harry still obligated to follow her order? He is also bound to Molly, she would then be his Queen.
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But if Mab is dead, is Harry still obligated to follow her order? He is also bound to Molly, she would then be his Queen.
Was it an order? What is the exact wording?
And also if Harry just let it know to Molly she can give a counter order and nobody can do a thing about it.
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The exact wording is "Should I fall, I have one last command you would be wise to fulfill. Kill Molly Carpenter. As quickly as possible." Harry asks why and Mab explains "As Winter Lady she shows promise. But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be unsettling....for both of you. Perhaps for all of winter"
To me this goes in direct violation to the deal where Harry said "And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love"
In one statement you have at least the implied agreement from Mab that she would never command Harry to harm those he loves otherwise he would not have accepted the mantle. In the other statement she is commanding him to kill someone he loves.
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She didn't give it. She told him it existed and he'd be wise to do it, but that's it.
If she'd given it, he'd have to do it. Fits the letter of their agreement.
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There's an argument to be made that Molly becoming Mab would make her no longer the person he loved. She also seems to imply in her statement that it's something he woudn't *have* to do. "You would be wise to fulfill" is usually a threat, but it's also more of a heavy recommendation than an outright escapable command.
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The exact wording is "Should I fall, I have one last command you would be wise to fulfill. Kill Molly Carpenter. As quickly as possible." Harry asks why and Mab explains "As Winter Lady she shows promise. But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be unsettling....for both of you. Perhaps for all of winter"
But by the words, "you would be wise to fulfill," Mab is leaving it up to Harry. It is a suggestion, and she is warning him if he doesn't do it, it could go very wrong. However she isn't telling him he must do it, and there doesn't seem to be any force that would make him do it.
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Hmm. So I wonder how she could say that at all. "The stars shall fall from the sky when Mab keeps not her word" IIRC.
Possibly there is some trick involving it being a conditional order - "Should I fall". IE it's not really an order until Mab is dead, and therefore breaking her word is impossible/irrelevant?
Are we agreed that during the BAT stars will fall and Mab will break her word? or will Mab breaking her word lead to the stars falling.
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My personal take on that is that if the stars are falling from the sky, it means the Outer Gates have fallen, and Mab has failed in her duty (and is probably dead).
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Battle Ground spoliers below:
So Mab basically tells Harry that if she falls in the battle her final order to him would be to kill Molly because she worries what kind of "Mab" Molly would be. But when Harry took the mantle of winter knight, wasn't one of his conditions that Mab never order him to harm his friends or family? Did she just give him an "out" for the Mantle if he wants to take it? Am I missing something?
Both yes and no I suppose.
Yes, this order is against the previous bargain and No, it does not break her words or at least it does not matter if Mab broke her words anyway.
This order is only effective if Mab died. If Mab died stars will indeed fall from the sky and it does not matter if she broke her word. She is dead. The binding of fae nature that does not allow her to lie or break her promise is not effective anymore.
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This order is only effective if Mab died. If Mab died stars will indeed fall from the sky and it does not matter if she broke her word. She is dead. The binding of fae nature that does not allow her to lie or break her promise is not effective anymore.
Or when she died and the Queen's mantle passed to Molly, Molly would no longer be, Molly. So in essence, Harry wouldn't be killing a person he loved. That would be very Mabbish, don't you think? ::)
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Or when she died and the Queen's mantle passed to Molly, Molly would no longer be, Molly. So in essence, Harry wouldn't be killing a person he loved. That would be very Mabbish, don't you think? ::)
Except it is not true. Certainly not in Mab’s view.
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To me this goes in direct violation to the deal where Harry said "And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love"
It sure sounds like it. But I think it's probably a matter of the wording "Should I fall, I have one last command" meaning that Mab is not actually in fact giving that command. It only becomes operative if she dies, at which point her breaking her oath or not is meaningless.
It's a stretch, but I think that's how Faerie work.
Are we agreed that during the BAT stars will fall and Mab will break her word? or will Mab breaking her word lead to the stars falling.
More or less, but 'keeps not her word' doesn't necessarily mean 'actively breaks her word', it could also mean she is prevented from doing something she promised to do (such as by being killed).
Or she dies and this command to Harry then becomes operative... "Should I fall" doesn't actually limit it to this battle.
Yeah I expect Mab's death to start the BAT... not that my track record for predictions is any good (I expected Eb to die in BG and Murphy not to).
"Stars will fall" might not be literal, could have something to do with the 'Stars and Stones' bit... or could refer to Eb using some kind of Tunguska attack...
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Both yes and no I suppose.
Yes, this order is against the previous bargain and No, it does not break her words or at least it does not matter if Mab broke her words anyway.
This order is only effective if Mab died. If Mab died stars will indeed fall from the sky and it does not matter if she broke her word. She is dead. The binding of fae nature that does not allow her to lie or break her promise is not effective anymore.
I agree with this.
Also, I was so shocked as the OP when I read that in BG. My first reaction was that Mab was giving Harry a way out. If she died, her command would be effective and, by breaking her word, she would set Harry free of his obligation to Winter. But I am not sure now, because the wording of the original deal does not meant "the deal will break if Mab do that". Is "Mab won't do that". Period. So Mab doing it, is terrible. Unless she is nemfected, I don't understand why she did that. But perhaps JB has an explanation. I don't think that he would have included the word "command" if he just meant to Mab to give Harry an advise.
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I think the operative thing here is that she doesn't expressly indicate that it's a command to Harry. It's her last command, which would generally go out to all of Winter (ie she's telling the Redcap or Lea or whoever has opportunity). In true Winter-fashion she realizes that Harry would have the highest chance of success...because he's the one person in Winter Molly would let her guard down for and be susceptible to treachery. The phrasing here is key in that she suggests he would be wise to fulfill it, but it's clear he, as the Winter Knight, is not ordered to do so.
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What I don't get is, what would the alternative be? Mab doesn't think Molly is ready, but if Mab is dead and then Molly is dead.... the mantles of BOTH fall on a couple of people completely unready to be the Winter Queen and Winter Lady?
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I believe one of the mantles would go to Lea. The other...I don't know. To a random fae?
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Here is a thought that I've been having, if Molly got the Queen's mantle, would Harry have to have sex with her like he did Mab in front of the whole Winter Court? That might do things to both Harry and Molly that would echo through out Winter.
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For where the mantles go, the closest body of winter, which would be Harry. It was stated, I believe in a WOJ that it would, so the power would go back to winter and Mother Winter would have to pick a new Queen and Lady. Or maybe I'm thinking that because of how SK played out and Harry being incompatible with the mantles.
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Here is a thought that I've been having, if Molly got the Queen's mantle, would Harry have to have sex with her like he did Mab in front of the whole Winter Court? That might do things to both Harry and Molly that would echo through out Winter.
Probably not. I do not think Mab had sex with all Maeves throwaway knights.
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I think that also was the signing of the contract. He won't need to sign again because the contract is still valid, even when the Queen changes.
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I think that also was the signing of the contract. He won't need to sign again because the contract is still valid, even when the Queen changes.
I would agree, the contract is with Mab (the mantle) not Mab (the individual wearing the mantle)
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I think that also was the signing of the contract. He won't need to sign again because the contract is still valid, even when the Queen changes.
The new Queen might want a symbolic reenactment of the signing of the contract. You know, just to demonstrate to the rest of Winter that the new Queen and current Winter Knight are in accord with one another, and not at all because Molly has had a thing for Harry for years and is currently being forced to wear the equivalent of an unbreakable magical fae chastity belt.
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The new Queen might want a symbolic reenactment of the signing of the contract. You know, just to demonstrate to the rest of Winter that the new Queen and current Winter Knight are in accord with one another, and not at all because Molly has had a thing for Harry for years and is currently being forced to wear the equivalent of an unbreakable magical fae chastity belt.
She might suggest it but Molly won’t force Harry in this.
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It seemed to me that this wasn't a command as much as a recommendation. Mab's death would definitely break any contract just as Harry's death would do likewise. Molly is a sensitive who hasn't responded well to such things in the past. Granted she has grow loads since then but how well would she endure feeling thousands of deaths through her banner coming from the gates? Imagine what millions of deaths over a thousand years has done to Mab then imagine Molly feeling that. Over time she could build up to that but right now, maybe not. I think Mab in her conversation with Titania has now made arrangements for Summer to take over the outer gates should Mab fall but that didn't happen until after the battle.
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It seemed to me that this wasn't a command as much as a recommendation. Mab's death would definitely break any contract just as Harry's death would do likewise. Molly is a sensitive who hasn't responded well to such things in the past. Granted she has grow loads since then but how well would she endure feeling thousands of deaths through her banner coming from the gates? Imagine what millions of deaths over a thousand years has done to Mab then imagine Molly feeling that. Over time she could build up to that but right now, maybe not. I think Mab in her conversation with Titania has now made arrangements for Summer to take over the outer gates should Mab fall but that didn't happen until after the battle.
What is troubling about that scene is Mab knows perfectly well, that Harry isn't about to kill Molly without a very good reason. Now, maybe because she didn't have time or more serious stuff was pressing, she was super vague, bad stuff will happen to Molly, Harry, and the Winter Court. Not, good enough.
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What is troubling about that scene is Mab knows perfectly well, that Harry isn't about to kill Molly without a very good reason. Now, maybe because she didn't have time or more serious stuff was pressing, she was super vague, bad stuff will happen to Molly, Harry, and the Winter Court. Not, good enough.
She is planting the seed. She knows if she dies Harry will not turn right around and kill Molly. But it would be in the back of his head and he will be watching her closer.
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She is planting the seed. She knows if she dies Harry will not turn right around and kill Molly. But it would be in the back of his head and he will be watching her closer.
Agreed, that is about the best she can do, because she knows at first at least, Harry will not obey that order.
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She is planting the seed. She knows if she dies Harry will not turn right around and kill Molly. But it would be in the back of his head and he will be watching her closer.
Is Molly going to be the one to knife Harry in the back?
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It seemed to me that this wasn't a command as much as a recommendation. Mab's death would definitely break any contract just as Harry's death would do likewise. Molly is a sensitive who hasn't responded well to such things in the past. Granted she has grow loads since then but how well would she endure feeling thousands of deaths through her banner coming from the gates? Imagine what millions of deaths over a thousand years has done to Mab then imagine Molly feeling that. Over time she could build up to that but right now, maybe not. I think Mab in her conversation with Titania has now made arrangements for Summer to take over the outer gates should Mab fall but that didn't happen until after the battle.
I disagree about the first part of what you said. I believe Harry will still be tied because, as ElJefe said, his contract is actually with Mab the mantle.
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Is Molly going to be the one to knife Harry in the back?
Naw, in my opinion, that was Carlos. I believe Eb was speaking metaphorically, not literally. And I do believe it was Carlos who testified against Harry before the Council.
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Naw, in my opinion, that was Carlos. I believe Eb was speaking metaphorically, not literally. And I do believe it was Carlos who testified against Harry before the Council.
Certainly the knife in the back is metaphorical and not literal. It only indicated betrayal of some sort. Yes it could have been Carlos changing his vote but didn't he say it was an emergency meeting of the SC while Eb and LTW were in surgery? That the vote was unanimous as well? We've been assuming that both Eb and LTW didn't know the vote would take place, giving their proxies to the Merlin but what if they had their proxies vote against Harry or knowingly let their proxies go to Langtree?
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deed.” She narrowed her eyes. “Should I fall, I have one last command you would be wise to fulfill.” I tilted my head. “Kill Molly Carpenter,” she said calmly. “As quickly as possible.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 219). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
This reads as Mab is giving him freedom of action.
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This reads as Mab is giving him freedom of action.
It certainly does, did she allude to the burden of her mantel on Demonreach too? When Harry threatened to kill her and she said that Molly just got the Winter Lady mantel, do you want to add the Winter Queen as well? Seemed to indicate the Molly wouldn't fair so well.
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Certainly the knife in the back is metaphorical and not literal. It only indicated betrayal of some sort. Yes it could have been Carlos changing his vote but didn't he say it was an emergency meeting of the SC while Eb and LTW were in surgery? That the vote was unanimous as well? We've been assuming that both Eb and LTW didn't know the vote would take place, giving their proxies to the Merlin but what if they had their proxies vote against Harry or knowingly let their proxies go to Langtree?
When Langtry has proxies, he uses them his way, he only follows the wishes of those who's proxies he holds when their wishes coincide with his own. We saw that in Proven Guilty.
It certainly does, did she allude to the burden of her mantel on Demonreach too? When Harry threatened to kill her and she said the Molly just got the Winter Lady mantel, do you want to add the Winter Queen as well? Seemed to indicate the Molly wouldn't fair so well.
Certainly not at that point, she was in a dead faint from the shock of it just entering her body. It didn't come with a manual.