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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Hankthemoose on September 30, 2020, 05:09:25 PM
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I don't get why Harry doesn't tell Ramirez anything. Specifically, I don't get why he tells him NOTHING AT ALL.
He reasons that he can't tell him about Thomas, and therefore says nothing. Well. A normal human would just leave that part out, instead of clamming up. His refusal to say anything at all breaks the suspension of disbelief, and was super bad writing imo.
As a few examples, he could have done things like...
Appeal to authority - "The Blackstaff knows my secrets, and why I can't share them. Take it up with him."
Appeal to emotion - "Information is dangerous, and I'm trying to protect you and other people I care about."
Explain a different problem - "The WC is compromised, and I don't know if the wardens are involved."
Scoff - "The WC has been trying to kill me from day 1. I didn't expect you to become Morgan the moment they wound up the pressure on me again.
A couple of those sound very much like stuff Harry would actually say, especially that last one. The way he did respond was a bit weird, but worse, it was boring and not believable.
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Yeah, I'm with you 100%
I don't get why he didn't say ANYTHING at all.
But people also seem to be irrational towards him too.
I'm like - you know, you could get this resolved with a 30 minute conversation over a cup of coffee...
Drama for Drama's Sake...
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I think there isn't a whole lot Harry can say to Carlos at this point as long as he is Winter Knight.
I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well. I realize he is a Warden and his duty is to enforce what the Senior Council rules, but he seemed to have drunk the whole glass of kool aid as well. Does he really think Harry is a monster? Does he really think it is Harry's fault that his fellow Wardens were killed or worse by the Black Court?
Do you honestly think confessing to Carlos that Thomas was his brother would help? Or would Carlos have the same attitude as Eb? Or more to the point if this did get around that his half brother was a vampire, the Council would be even more against him.
Appeal to authority - "The Blackstaff knows my secrets, and why I can't share them. Take it up with him."
Except Eb doesn't share them, so in the end he might make it worse not just for Carlos but Eb as well.
"The WC is compromised, and I don't know if the wardens are involved."
That wouldn't get him very far, especially if Carlos already didn't trust him.
"The WC has been trying to kill me from day 1. I didn't expect you to become Morgan the moment they wound up the pressure on me again.
Except Carlos seems perfectly willing to become Morgan, that is the problem.. Harry is back to being under the Doom.
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I think there isn't a whole lot Harry can say to Carlos at this point as long as he is Winter Knight.
I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well. I realize he is a Warden and his duty is to enforce what the Senior Council rules, but he seemed to have drunk the whole glass of kool aid as well. Does he really think Harry is a monster? Does he really think it is Harry's fault that his fellow Wardens were killed or worse by the Black Court?
Do you honestly think confessing to Carlos that Thomas was his brother would help? Or would Carlos have the same attitude as Eb? Or more to the point if this did get around that his half brother was a vampire, the Council would be even more against him.Except Eb doesn't share them, so in the end he might make it worse not just for Carlos but Eb as well.That wouldn't get him very far, especially if Carlos already didn't trust him.Except Carlos seems perfectly willing to become Morgan, that is the problem.. Harry is back to being under the Doom.
Carlos' state of mind, and his eventual response to what Harry says isn't really that important. What isn't believable is that Harry wouldn't say anything, regardless how Ramirez deals with it. Harry isn't a calculating creature, he is supposed to wear his heart on his sleeve, saying what's on his mind and fuck the consequences. Trying to either resolve the issue, or just lash out both make sense. Saying "You're gonna feel dumb later" rings totally hollow and bad faith when following absolutely no attempt to explain anything.
The point isn't that the plot would change in any way. The point is that the dialogue is lame and breaks character.
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I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?
I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.
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I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?
I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.
Molly happened
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Mostly I think the thing with both Carlos and Eb are just to build tension that can be dramatically resolved in a critical reversal, ultimately resulting in Harry getting them both for his new Chicago troubleshooting organization.
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I think that 'Los has more issues than he realizes going on here. I firmly agree that he has some issues with Winter thank's to being used to teach Molly a lesson. I think he's still wary of Harry because of the Lashiel buffs he witnessed back when and still never got an explanation for. That said Carlos trusted Harry then, but something changed... What?
I'm really curious about the Black Council/Grey Council plot at this point. With 'Los and Eb both on less than friendly terms with Harry now how will this plot move forward.
I think all of his views of Winter are colored by that experience with Molly. He didn't seem to have problems before hand.
I am struck by what Mab said about the Council being sheep afraid of having a wolf in their mist, but at the same time they are going to need that wolf. I don't think the split will last all that long. I go back to what Rashid told him in Turn Coat paraphrasing, "now is not your time to confront the Council." There is going to be another crisis, maybe a trial, and Harry is going to have to lay it on the line to the Council.
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Harry isn't aware of what transpired between Carlos and Molly though, is he? So I think there's some miscommunication on both sides as I believe Carlos thinks Harry does know what happened.
In Harry's defense, he's always sucked at communication and not explaining oneself? It's like Wizard crack, remember? :P
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Harry isn't aware of what transpired between Carlos and Molly though, is he? So I think there's some miscommunication on both sides as I believe Carlos thinks Harry does know what happened.
This was kinda where I was going... mentally at least. I do hope we get something resolved re: the Council sooner than later.
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Well, I do kind of like the idea of the White Council in general thinking they're looking at the rise of a new Kemmler due to Harry's actions and miscommunication because, if nothing else, it makes his life ridiculously difficult. :P
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This was kinda where I was going... mentally at least. I do hope we get something resolved re: the Council sooner than later.
Not when they hear about the wedding
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Not when they hear about the wedding
Especially Eb considering his issues with Whampires...
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Every conversation Harry has with Carlos after he's injured reads very differently if you read it where Carlos assumes Harry knows what happened with Molly.
They don't have a conversation where Harry doesn't threaten him with Molly, as I recall- I thought it heavy-handed. It's always at that point that Carlos twitches.
Harry is assuming that Carlos is such a straight-arrow that he'd feel obligated to report everything- so anything he tells Carlos isn't necessarily confidential.
Carlos assumes Harry knows about Molly, and is always threatening him casually. Also, from a Warden perspective- and Harry has been a Warden until being kicked out this book!- how rough has the war with the Fomor been? And Harry casually raises an army of Little Folk, brings in Bigfoot as backup, slaps Drakul a bit, mashes a couple of Eldar black court vampires, and finally brings down Ethniu.
Harry admires how Carlos can throw such low-energy punches endlessly, because Harry's swing-for-the-fences approach is exhausting. Now see it from Carlos's perspective: Harry can punch like Ebenezer, again and again and again and again. Why the hell didn't he take it to the Fomor? It's the Red Court all over again. Harry casually starts a war, the White Council bleeds for it, the Red Court goes after Harry personally and he annihilates them. From a distance, that's what it looks like- Harry's been holding back.
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I go back to what Rashid told him in Turn Coat paraphrasing, "now is not your time to confront the Council."
Yeah this book I think starts to show how that confrontation can happen and Harry have a chance.
Harry as an isolated rebel is one thing. Harry as a member of the Winter Court and close ally (or sort-of member?) of the White Court and Warden of Demonreach is something quite different.
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Yeah this book I think starts to show how that confrontation can happen and Harry have a chance.
Harry as an isolated rebel is one thing. Harry as a member of the Winter Court and close ally (or sort-of member?) of the White Court and Warden of Demonreach is something quite different.
Yes, but at this point anyway I don't think Harry or Lara want it.
Harry admires how Carlos can throw such low-energy punches endlessly, because Harry's swing-for-the-fences approach is exhausting. Now see it from Carlos's perspective: Harry can punch like Ebenezer, again and again and again and again. Why the hell didn't he take it to the Fomor? It's the Red Court all over again. Harry casually starts a war, the White Council bleeds for it, the Red Court goes after Harry personally and he annihilates them. From a distance, that's what it looks like- Harry's been holding back.
Harry didn't start this war, casually or otherwise. Though I think it is pretty clear that the Fomor are a cat's paw of the Outsiders, which puts Harry smack in the middle of it. Yeah, the White Council is going to bleed, but so is everyone.
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Yes, but at this point anyway I don't think Harry or Lara want it.
Oh sure. Presumably some other circumstance will start the conflict (like Mab orders Harry to do some kind of "double agent" thing like working with Nicodemus in SG, and it looks to the Council like Harry has gone full-on Black Council).
Harry didn't start this war, casually or otherwise.
In the big picture, you're right, but it looks like a consequence of Harry's destruction of the Red Court. (Though probably the Fomor could also have benefited from the RC destroying the Council or from the war grinding both down.)
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In the big picture, you're right, but it looks like a consequence of Harry's destruction of the Red Court. (Though probably the Fomor could also have benefited from the RC destroying the Council or from the war grinding both down.)
Like the events at the party in Grave Peril began the war with the Red Court before they were ready as Shiro pointed out. Because the Red King wanted revenge he tried a risky spell that Harry hoisted him by his own petard on.. Then it turns out that the Red Court were really a cat's paw for the Fomor who are really a cat's paw for the Outsiders.
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Yes, but at this point anyway I don't think Harry or Lara want it.
Harry didn't start this war, casually or otherwise. Though I think it is pretty clear that the Fomor are a cat's paw of the Outsiders, which puts Harry smack in the middle of it. Yeah, the White Council is going to bleed, but so is everyone.
That has nothing to do with my point. To make it explicit: Harry has so much ka-BOOM he could have made a massive difference a long time ago- to those outside who don't know better.
If you don't know about the ritual the Red Court themselves prepped, you're just a line Warden or wizard living in fear during the war, and this one guy just comes in after years of warfare and ends it- where the heck was he the entire time?
His then doing the same to Ethniu/the Formor makes it look like he doesn't care how many shanks the White Council eats. If one chooses to view it so.
Makes it look like he doesn't care enough to throw down for the Council
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Every conversation Harry has with Carlos after he's injured reads very differently if you read it where Carlos assumes Harry knows what happened with Molly.
They don't have a conversation where Harry doesn't threaten him with Molly, as I recall- I thought it heavy-handed. It's always at that point that Carlos twitches.
Harry is assuming that Carlos is such a straight-arrow that he'd feel obligated to report everything- so anything he tells Carlos isn't necessarily confidential.
Carlos assumes Harry knows about Molly, and is always threatening him casually. Also, from a Warden perspective- and Harry has been a Warden until being kicked out this book!- how rough has the war with the Fomor been? And Harry casually raises an army of Little Folk, brings in Bigfoot as backup, slaps Drakul a bit, mashes a couple of Eldar black court vampires, and finally brings down Ethniu.
Harry admires how Carlos can throw such low-energy punches endlessly, because Harry's swing-for-the-fences approach is exhausting. Now see it from Carlos's perspective: Harry can punch like Ebenezer, again and again and again and again. Why the hell didn't he take it to the Fomor? It's the Red Court all over again. Harry casually starts a war, the White Council bleeds for it, the Red Court goes after Harry personally and he annihilates them. From a distance, that's what it looks like- Harry's been holding back.
This is beautifully phrased. It totally makes both sides understandable...
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Something else to consider: Carlos was complaining to Harry about himd (Dresden) keeping things to himself as far back as White Night, so this isn't exactly OOC for Dresden...
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Something else to consider: Carlos was complaining to Harry about himd (Dresden) keeping things to himself as far back as White Night, so this isn't exactly OOC for Dresden...
But didn't Harry just meet him in White Night? So Carlos didn't know him all that well back then.
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Dead Beat. Carlos rode his dinosaur with him. Carlos knew who he was before that- he was Langtry's apprentice who laughed at Harry's wisecracks.
In White Knight, they go in to the White Court meeting together, and Harry simply starts speaking Etruscan fluently. They meet Lara, they announce themselves, then Harry tells Carlos "We're fighting those guys now."
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Further, in White Night (I think), they established in the Camp Ka-Boom flashback that Harry has spent some time with Carlos and they seem to be friends...
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This is addressed over and over in the text. And everybody in the books has secrets.
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I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well.
I totally agree with this. Molly broke Carlos and Harry doesn't know anything about it.
As for the lack of Harry's response, have you ever lost someone you loved who was too young to die and you didn't see it coming? It can leave you numb. Add Murph to experiencing death about 800 times, and Harry's going to swing from numb to flying off a handle at almost random seems believable to me.
Does Harry have any reason to keep Thomas being his brother a secret anymore? It isn't like it gives him divided loyalties anymore. Especially once everyone finds out he's betrothed to Lara.
Red Court goes after Harry personally and he annihilates them. From a distance, that's what it looks like- Harry's been holding back.
Does Carlos even know it was personally?
Yeah this book I think starts to show how that confrontation can happen and Harry have a chance.
Harry as an isolated rebel is one thing. Harry as a member of the Winter Court and close ally (or sort-of member?) of the White Court and Warden of Demonreach is something quite different.
And Harry hints at starting a nation/organization of his own. They also mention how powerful the Paranetters are when working together. I think these are both seeds for something big.
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Harry isn't aware of what transpired between Carlos and Molly though, is he? So I think there's some miscommunication on both sides as I believe Carlos thinks Harry does know what happened.
In Harry's defense, he's always sucked at communication and not explaining oneself? It's like Wizard crack, remember? :P
That's the problem, if he isn't aware, then how does he deal with Carlos's sudden problem with things Winter? Also reading the dialogue between them at the beginning of Battle Ground, Carlos saw the little "show" in the boxing ring while they were springing Thomas, so he believes he is in thick with the vamps. Do you think if Harry tried to explain that Thomas was his brother it would help? You saw Eb's reaction, if Carlos told his superiors, it would be worse. Also I am not sure how much about Demonreach Harry is free to reveal his job there. No, in the end Carlos seems to be equating the White Court with the Black Court because he is blaming getting jumped by Dracul and company on Harry. Also Harry is like his grandfather, he keeps things close to the vest.
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There's a question of who knows what at play.
How well-known is the paternity of Maggie, daughter of Fellowship of St. Giles member Susan Rodriguez? How well known was the kidnapping? How well-known was the strike of the Eebs? Their end in the Erlking's hall?
There are paths where the assassination attempt on Harry, followed by his elimination of the Red Court, occur, far more easily than the true story.
Heck, Mab was *not* subtle about claiming Harry. And he immediately charged into Chicken Itza alongside the Leanansidhe.
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Heck, Mab was *not* subtle about claiming Harry. And he immediately charged into Chicken Itza alongside the Leanansidhe.
However he didn't really have any good options, it was the least bad of the lot. However the questions that should be asked is does anyone know....
1] Harry's spine was broken, the Red King was about to kill his daughter, his grandfather, and himself. He was also offered very little help.
2] Uriel told him as long as he was motivated by love he would never stray so far that he couldn't get back on the right path.
3] That Harry reversed the Red King's spell when Susan transformed, thus hoisting the Red King by his own petard..
4] That Harry attempted to suicide to avoid becoming Mab's Knight. That only the intervention of Mab and Uriel with help from the island and a parasite in his head keep him slightly alive.
5] The seven words that Uriel spoke to him that if he keeps to them will prevent him from ever becoming her slave...
Answer, No, they don't, and I am not sure it would help if they did.
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I think there isn't a whole lot Harry can say to Carlos at this point as long as he is Winter Knight.
I think what happened when he and Molly attempted to make love did more than cripple him physically, it left severe emotional scars as well. I realize he is a Warden and his duty is to enforce what the Senior Council rules, but he seemed to have drunk the whole glass of kool aid as well. Does he really think Harry is a monster? Does he really think it is Harry's fault that his fellow Wardens were killed or worse by the Black Court?
Do you honestly think confessing to Carlos that Thomas was his brother would help? Or would Carlos have the same attitude as Eb? Or more to the point if this did get around that his half brother was a vampire, the Council would be even more against him.Except Eb doesn't share them, so in the end he might make it worse not just for Carlos but Eb as well.That wouldn't get him very far, especially if Carlos already didn't trust him.Except Carlos seems perfectly willing to become Morgan, that is the problem.. Harry is back to being under the Doom.
The “WC is compromised” is the best option. Carlos had his own name for the BC in White Night.
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I think its less of a remireze issue, but that the entire book was guided by nemisis. all recent events, in fact. even scoffing could give nemisis info if remeireze is infected, and we haven't seen enough to even know if his personality has changed beyond trauma. Harry knows the severity of nemisis, but very few others do. I would suspect not even the senior council. they know of the outsiders, and their goals, per their reactions in peace talks, but that would not explain the gatekeepers words in summer knight. that the council knows of their roles, but not much of their purpose. so the council knows he's guarding the gates, but not that he looks for nemisis in returning troops, arguably the most important secret in the universe. if they knew of the gatekeeper at the gates of reality, they would know all we know, or more by speculation if they knew of nemisis. I don't think harry will say anything, as long as the current events or questions asked may contain any relation at all to the adversary. the only time he speaks about it, seems to be with mab, or directly to the adversary(cat sith or justine). he's always rebuked before, but he only recently knew of nemisis. two books ago/years. he clammed up like this to butters in cold days, so there is precedent, and butters is arguably more close to harry than rameriz as an ally. even he ended up taking everything on faith, and we have not seen a scene where any mortal, other than harry and the gatekeeper, specifically know anything about nemisis. and that seems to be because they have roles to play in it.