ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Darkest-Before-Dawn on September 29, 2020, 03:27:56 PM

Title: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Darkest-Before-Dawn on September 29, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Wow, so Battle Ground was the quite the ride. In my opinion well worth waiting for and been split from Peace Talks because a *lot* happened there.

So Battle Ground provided quite a bit of exposition and answered some questions that have been discussed a lot on here before, as well as some events that people had predicted:

- Murphy's death and ascending to Einherjar...dom
- Marcone did take up Thorned Namshiel's coin (interesting to look back at Skin Game with the Denarian involvement with this in mind?)
- We finally got to see Drakul! It's interesting because I had always interpreted WoJ re the Black Court to suggest Drakul didn't have much to do with it and Dracula had run away from him to form it. This suggests Dracula isn't really involved (or even un-alive) as Drakul seems to be very past-tensey about him.
- Pretty much word for word confirmation Mac is an (ex)Angel.
- Confirmation Justine is Nemfected

The reveals just kept coming, I couldn't put it down (happily took the day off work).

Anything other readers have been waiting to see or questions that were answered? And what questions do people want answered subsequently?!
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 29, 2020, 03:36:19 PM
Wow, so Battle Ground was the quite the ride. In my opinion well worth waiting for and been split from Peace Talks because a *lot* happened there.

So Battle Ground provided quite a bit of exposition and answered some questions that have been discussed a lot on here before, as well as some events that people had predicted:

- Murphy's death and ascending to Einherjar...dom
- Marcone did take up Thorned Namshiel's coin (interesting to look back at Skin Game with the Denarian involvement with this in mind?)
- We finally got to see Drakul! It's interesting because I had always interpreted WoJ re the Black Court to suggest Drakul didn't have much to do with it and Dracula had run away from him to form it. This suggests Dracula isn't really involved (or even un-alive) as Drakul seems to be very past-tensey about him.
- Pretty much word for word confirmation Mac is an (ex)Angel.
- Confirmation Justine is Nemfected

The reveals just kept coming, I couldn't put it down (happily took the day off work).

Anything other readers have been waiting to see or questions that were answered? And what questions do people want answered subsequently?!

 Good Grief!  Some of it sounds like crap!  As in throw in everything but the kitchen sink crap.  I hope it doesn't read that way.  Will try and reserve judgement, but still... :o ???
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Darkest-Before-Dawn on September 29, 2020, 03:37:53 PM
Good Grief!  Some of it sounds like crap!  As in throw in everything but the kitchen sink crap.  I hope it doesn't read that way.  Will try and reserve judgement, but still... :o ???

It didn't read that way at all, to me. I really would wait until you've had a chance to read it. As a fan it was just a lot of very exciting moments of getting what a lot of us have been asking for, and making up for the somewhat slower Peace Talks.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 29, 2020, 03:44:11 PM
It didn't read that way at all, to me. I really would wait until you've had a chance to read it. As a fan it was just a lot of very exciting moments of getting what a lot of us have been asking for, and making up for the somewhat slower Peace Talks.

 What I fear is a rehash of Game of Thrones season eight..  All the budget was put into huge battles, but the in-between writing really suffered, so it was all bang and felt like a bust..  I will try to keep it a open mind, some of it expected, not surprised that Justine was infected, though an easy way out maybe, but Marcone taking up a coin?  And what is Drakul doing there? 
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on September 29, 2020, 04:37:58 PM
First Battle Ground is good.  But a good editor could have put this in one slightly longer book and called it Peace Talks. The story would have been better served.  Small Spoiler.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 29, 2020, 04:43:33 PM
Michael swears!!!

And it isn’t even a hit your hammer with a thumb situation.

Oh and all my darkest theories about Lacuna are correct, she does collect the teeth of the fallen dead on the Battlefield, The Redcap was acting for Mab all along, which means Lacuna has always been Mab’s agent, so Lacuna probably did scrimshaw Lloyd Slates teeth. Toot is totally in love with her despite all her creepiness, or perhaps because of it.

Pizza never dies.

And Harry does refer to the Great Hall in the BFS building as a basketball court, after taking ownership. Molly describes it as being like a huge damp gloomy basement. Harry says perfect.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 29, 2020, 05:35:12 PM
First Battle Ground is good.  But a good editor could have put this in one slightly longer book and called it Peace Talks. The story would have been better served.  Small Spoiler.
(click to show/hide)

I think you are right, especially on the second read of Peace Talks, it cuts off just as things begin to fall into place.  I am glad I delayed my second read and finished just a couple of days ago.. GO BUTTERS!  Polka will never die!
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: vultur on September 29, 2020, 06:29:12 PM
This suggests Dracula isn't really involved (or even un-alive) as Drakul seems to be very past-tensey about him.

I think Dracula got killed in the Stokerlypse. Yes the WOJs on it suggest Dracula created the Court as an act of rebellion against Drakul... maybe Drakul sort of 'inherited' it?

Quote
Anything other readers have been waiting to see or questions that were answered?

Confirmation that Nemesis is He Who Walks Beside, and near-confirmation that the Blackstaff is Mother Winter's walking stick (Eb's shadow turns into an "old woman, complete with the classic witch nose and chin").

Quote
And what questions do people want answered subsequently?!

What's the deal with "stars and stones", and why is knowing about it so important that Listens-to-Wind doesn't feel able to tell Harry?

What does it mean that Drakul is starborn? If Drakul is an inhuman entity trapped in human form, what does it even mean for him to be "born" at a specific time - is he possessing a pre-existing human body that was actually born, vs creating a body the way Uriel temporarily did in SG?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Psyklone on September 29, 2020, 06:40:20 PM
Good Grief!  Some of it sounds like crap!  As in throw in everything but the kitchen sink crap.  I hope it doesn't read that way.  Will try and reserve judgement, but still... :o ???

It read well enough.  The plot device used was believable, Imho, it is just that Battle Ground is just that.  The entire book is Chitchen Itza, which we are not used to so it takes a bit of adjustment.  If you aren't fresh off of Peace Talks it may not read as well, and I wouldn't recommend ever reading Battle Ground alone/without Peace Talks.

This book was another Changes, it cleared the field of a bunch of issues, to set up the next goal post.  I can tell that however many books are left, Jim has started to summon Godzilla, and the waters are starting to churn. 

What interests me mostly is how he left things between Harry and the White Council.  It suggests that in the next book or book after the White Council will be hit imo, as the events here have thoroughly fermented the situation for dissolution, abandonement, and open internal strife.

Edit:
I will also be interested to see what happens with the Grey Council now...especially since Harry is even more isolated than before.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Poten26 on September 29, 2020, 06:48:08 PM
I agree, definitely reads well and thought it was great.

Not sure how I feel about murphy dying though, be interesting how mirror mirror takes the story forward. Last time we had a changes, ghost story was a completely different pace and book.

Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on September 29, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Some more thoughts. 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Rigil Kent on September 29, 2020, 08:49:09 PM
I was completely unprepared for the Lara bit. I'm cool with it, though, as she's my favorite "monster" of the series. :P Certainly interested in seeing where they go with that. And having just reread the Christmas microfiction, that means there's only 6 mos left until the big day! And how with Thomas react when he's inevitably pulled out of the box?

But yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to the next and pray that Jim doesn't make me wait so long.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 29, 2020, 09:14:06 PM
Vadderung and Uriel have lunch together every year.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Thana†os on September 29, 2020, 09:16:36 PM
Where was Mister?

No mention of him at all I noticed, not even in the Christmas epilogue.

Boooo! I say. Shenanigans.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 29, 2020, 09:19:34 PM
Vadderung and Uriel have lunch together every year.

I would expect on Christmas Day, Christmas Eve is a big day for both of them. Indeed, that’s where Kringle was going in Christmas Eve, most likely.

I think it is clear that the Blackstaff is indeed Mother Winters walking stick.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 29, 2020, 10:59:29 PM
Long time gone from forums. Just finished the book. Still processing the details. Murphy's scene was rough but gave a good glimpse at what a villain-Harry could be. Mab was awesome and Sanya is the best. Marcone may be a Baron but Harry is king of the castle!
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Wrane on September 29, 2020, 11:09:30 PM
My opinion of this book is far lower than others have posted. 
Bigfoot vs Drakul fight offscreen (boo). 
The book felt like the first 45 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. (all action no story)
The familiar beats of Dresden learning and having a moment where he gets it just weren't there.
The fact that Christmas Eve needed to be included to provide any sense of closure or character evolution, is quite damning as a it relates to the structure of the novel.

The questions that remain unanswered are not very interesting or have been undermined. LTW has info for Harry but since he got tossed there is no reasonable way for Harry to get the info from the WC.  The argument the WC made is complete crap. (You have secrets therefore you are out and we are going to send family to kill you if you break our rules which we wont tell you.)
The writing feels uninspired in order set up something in the future.   
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Rigil Kent on September 29, 2020, 11:15:54 PM
Hmm. Does Mab know the Marcone secret? It almost seems as though Harry didn't actually reveal that ... or at least, I don't think it was remotely addressed after the fact...
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 30, 2020, 12:24:27 AM
She does, she went full Spock Eyebrow.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on September 30, 2020, 12:45:37 AM
Why is Thorned Namshiel the only Denarian with two names?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 12:54:11 AM
Technically, he's just Namshiel. But maybe that's just how everyone sees him. And of course, because that's how Jim names him. It is odd, I admit. Although technically, Nicodemus and Tess both have two names.

Wrane - Shame you didn't like it. I personally very much enjoyed it. We all get something out of different books. Can't say I agree that the remaining unanswered questions are uninteresting though. Plenty of good stuff handed out, but so much more to know now. And I appreciate Jim finally got around to actually dealing with some of them. Dresden did learn heaps though. From conversations with LtW, Mab, Bob, Vadderung, Eb, Drakul plus observation and overhearing other things. Seems like finally he starts paying attention and asking the right questions.

Hmm. Does Mab know the Marcone secret? It almost seems as though Harry didn't actually reveal that ... or at least, I don't think it was remotely addressed after the fact...
Oh yeah, she got it. And I daresay Vadderung already knew. He didn't seem too fussed though, so make of that what you will.

Vadderung and Uriel have lunch together every year.
And which day? That seems important.

Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: wardenferry419 on September 30, 2020, 01:10:10 AM
My guess would be day after X-Mas to compare notes.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: huangjimmy108 on September 30, 2020, 01:26:58 AM
Wow, so Battle Ground was the quite the ride. In my opinion well worth waiting for and been split from Peace Talks because a *lot* happened there.

So Battle Ground provided quite a bit of exposition and answered some questions that have been discussed a lot on here before, as well as some events that people had predicted:

- Murphy's death and ascending to Einherjar...dom
- Marcone did take up Thorned Namshiel's coin (interesting to look back at Skin Game with the Denarian involvement with this in mind?)
- We finally got to see Drakul! It's interesting because I had always interpreted WoJ re the Black Court to suggest Drakul didn't have much to do with it and Dracula had run away from him to form it. This suggests Dracula isn't really involved (or even un-alive) as Drakul seems to be very past-tensey about him.
- Pretty much word for word confirmation Mac is an (ex)Angel.
- Confirmation Justine is Nemfected

The reveals just kept coming, I couldn't put it down (happily took the day off work).

Anything other readers have been waiting to see or questions that were answered? And what questions do people want answered subsequently?!

BG answers the question about power levels. This book show us that even the likes of Mab is not at the level of *Divine* yet, while angels, even those fallen ones who are bound in the coins are at *divine* status. In other words, being *immortal* is not = being *divine*

The assertion that the Queen of faeries aka Mab and Titania is equal in power to angels, as stated in book 4, is now proven false. Book 4 Harry is wrong about this matter.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 01:33:18 AM
My guess would be day after X-Mas to compare notes.
New Years Day? Start of a new year? Perhaps the lunch bit is significant.

BG answers the question about power levels. This book show us that even the likes of Mab is not at the level of *Divine* yet, while angels, even those fallen ones who are bound in the coins are at *divine* status. In other words, being *immortal* is not = being *divine*

The assertion that the Queen of faeries aka Mab and Titania is equal in power to angels, as stated in book 4, is now proven false. Book 4 Harry is wrong about this matter.
Indeed, finally some clarification. However, Immortal is still Immortal. Mab couldn't be killed with explosions. She would just come back. Even cold iron. Apart from Conjunctions, intense magical power can do it. Ethniu and perhaps her Eye. Mab resisted one strike but I doubt she would have resisted two.

Just to be clear though, it was Lea in Book 4 that compared Mab to the Archangels. No matter, Jim's done a soft retcon. Sort of established well before this but clearer than ever to see.

Also, Ethniu seemed to know the Angel she was talking to. Personally. Called him traitor and coward. Seems like they both were once on the same team, and his siding with TWG and humanity seems an act of treachery.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Greywolf on September 30, 2020, 01:43:45 AM
Unanswered question: was there an offscreen reason why Molly and Lara are so mad at each other that I missed? Is it just that Molly is jealous of Harry and Lara’s relationship, like heard the rumours from the Peace Talks or something? Or are we meant not to know?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 01:44:57 AM
No, but I think it's implied it's because of the wedding.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 30, 2020, 03:31:41 AM
I think Marcone has ‘corrupted’ Namshiel. Generally he may have had subjugated hosts in the past, and now he has Marcone, the exact opposite.

Namshiel is suspected of being part of the raid Nicodemus didn’t know about at Arctic Tor, which is suspected to have been Black Council, and not Denarian.

Marcone has stripped Nicodemus of much of his power in relation to the events of SG, perhaps Namshiel sees an alliance with Marcone as the opportunity to replace Nicky as head of the Denarians. Perhaps this was his aim with the Black Council, but Marcone has achieved this in reality.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: ClintACK on September 30, 2020, 05:03:23 AM
Unanswered question: was there an offscreen reason why Molly and Lara are so mad at each other that I missed? Is it just that Molly is jealous of Harry and Lara’s relationship, like heard the rumours from the Peace Talks or something? Or are we meant not to know?

Strong implication is that Molly knew that Lara's first "favor" request to Mab had been Harry's hand in marriage.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 05:46:39 AM
Michael and Charity already knew. Just like with Harry and Lasciel's coin.

So when did they see it?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: TheCuriousFan on September 30, 2020, 06:30:57 AM
Michael and Charity already knew. Just like with Harry and Lasciel's coin.

So when did they see it?
Probably when she had to rush them out to the other side of the street to dodge Listen's goon squad.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 07:27:22 AM
Probably when she had to rush them out to the other side of the street to dodge Listen's goon squad.
Did she do that herself?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: TheCuriousFan on September 30, 2020, 08:17:44 AM
Did she do that herself?
Harry seems to think so.

Quote
I looked up at her, coughed out some smoke, and then croaked, “Where’d you hide them? Our family?”
She glanced at me and then smiled faintly. “Right across the street. Where they could watch the whole thing. Like in Fellowship.”
“Clever girl,” I said.
She showed me a vulpine smile.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: ClintACK on September 30, 2020, 12:29:45 PM
I'd say Michael's known since he saw her face on the statue in Hades' vault.

Or at least that started him asking the right questions from the right people. He was a Knight for something like twenty years -- and half the Supernatural world knew Molly was the Winter Lady.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on September 30, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
Technically, he's just Namshiel. But maybe that's just how everyone sees him. And of course, because that's how Jim names him. It is odd, I admit. Although technically, Nicodemus and Tess both have two names.

What is odd is that Namshiel and thus Marcone can use magic. Especially since no other Fallen uses magic unless their host is a wizard.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 01:31:49 PM
What is odd is that Namshiel and thus Marcone can use magic. Especially since no other Fallen uses magic unless their host is a wizard.

I want to know what was behind Marcone giving Harry the Eye?  Was it an attempt to get Harry on the side of the Denarians?  Did he will want to appear to be a reasonable member of the Accords?  What kind of arrangement does Marcone have with Namshiel?  Is it the kind of partnership that Lasciel offered Harry or that Andruiel has with Nic?  Has Marcone had the coin since Small Favor and only now getting around to taking it up?  What will he do when Namshiel starts to call the shots?  Will he ultimately reject the coin then  and become a Knight?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 01:37:51 PM
I want to know what was behind Marcone giving Harry the Eye?  Was it an attempt to get Harry on the side of the Denarians?  Did he will want to appear to be a reasonable member of the Accords?  What kind of arrangement does Marcone have with Namshiel?  Is it the kind of partnership that Lasciel offered Harry or that Andruiel has with Nic?  Has Marcone had the coin since Small Favor and only now getting around to taking it up?  What will he do when Namshiel starts to call the shots?  Will he ultimately reject the coin then  and become a Knight?
Thorned Namshiel does not want Marcone to have the eye because he does not want to play second fiddle to something that powerful.

Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 01:41:59 PM
Thorned Namshiel does not want Marcone to have the eye because he does not want to play second fiddle to something that powerful.

But he wouldn't would he?  I mean the Eye is merely a tool, a weapon of pure hate.  I doubt that Namshiel would play second fiddle to the eye, but Marcone might, which would make him less useful perhaps?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: ClintACK on September 30, 2020, 01:42:20 PM
I'd assume that Marcone's ability to use magic is something he negotiated for specifically, before he fully took up Namshiel's coin. Harry showed him over and over what a ridiculous force multiplier magic was, and then the fomor showed him how inadequate his elaborate and expensive defenses were.

The scary question is -- what did it take for Marcone to get that? We know that there's a way to "eat" the magical talent of other wizards -- sort of like Harry did with Kravos in Grave Peril. I'd imagine Namshiel knows the details of the "horrible" way to make that work -- a sort of one-soul-at-a-time Dark Hallow. Perhaps some of the lesser talents who vanished over the last few years weren't taken by the fomor.

Re: the Eye...

When you consider what it takes to use it (physically and emotionally), it's not actually that useful to anyone sane and human-sized. And it puts a huge target on the back of anyone known to have it.

But yeah, I'd imagine Marcone could have taken it and then auctioned it off to the magical community, or just sold it to Vadderung for all kinds of things -- like personal magic instruction.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 02:07:30 PM
But he wouldn't would he?  I mean the Eye is merely a tool, a weapon of pure hate.  I doubt that Namshiel would play second fiddle to the eye, but Marcone might, which would make him less useful perhaps?
The fallen want to tempt their host with power. The eye might be an alternative source of power.

I do not think an object this powerful is nothing but a tool. Using it will influence you, you will start hating. Also it probably wants to be used.

Marcone knows Harry won’t use it. He wanted to put a target on Harry and Harry managed to cast doubt about it and Mab and Lara supported him in this.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on September 30, 2020, 02:10:21 PM
I want to know what was behind Marcone giving Harry the Eye?  Was it an attempt to get Harry on the side of the Denarians?  Did he will want to appear to be a reasonable member of the Accords?  What kind of arrangement does Marcone have with Namshiel?  Is it the kind of partnership that Lasciel offered Harry or that Andruiel has with Nic?  Has Marcone had the coin since Small Favor and only now getting around to taking it up?  What will he do when Namshiel starts to call the shots?  Will he ultimately reject the coin then  and become a Knight?
Marcone never plays unless he can win.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 02:20:05 PM
Marcone never plays unless he can win.

Or thinks he can, does Marcone believe he can have the same amicable partnership like Nic has with Andruiel?  Remember Lasciel offered that to Harry, but he refused, because he had the benefit of that soul gaze of another host and didn't believe her.  Marcone is a different man, not a good man, so he might go along with it.. However I cannot see him playing second fiddle to a coin.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
Or thinks he can, does Marcone believe he can have the same amicable partnership like Nic has with Andruiel?  Remember Lasciel offered that to Harry, but he refused, because he had the benefit of that soul gaze of another host and didn't believe her.  Marcone is a different man, not a good man, so he might go along with it.. However I cannot see him playing second fiddle to a coin.
He will. If he keeps the coin long enough. Remember Hannah? When you have that coin you can not even trust what you see and hear.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Rigil Kent on September 30, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
Strong implication is that Molly knew that Lara's first "favor" request to Mab had been Harry's hand in marriage.
That's how I read it as it well. Molly still has a thing for Harry and knowing that the impossibly sexy Lara asked for that Favor honked her off.

Interesting not quite-related question: what if a female White Court vampire of House Raith becomes pregnant and legitimately loves their child? I'm guessing that'd kill them, but is there a way to work through it? (Because yeah, I kind of want Thomas to come out of the box to discover that Harry is married to Lara and they have a kid, just for the LOLs and WTFs that would ensue.)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 03:33:18 PM
That's how I read it as it well. Molly still has a thing for Harry and knowing that the impossibly sexy Lara asked for that Favor honked her off.

Interesting not quite-related question: what if a female White Court vampire of House Raith becomes pregnant and legitimately loves their child? I'm guessing that'd kill them, but is there a way to work through it? (Because yeah, I kind of want Thomas to come out of the box to discover that Harry is married to Lara and they have a kid, just for the LOLs and WTFs that would ensue.)
It won’t count as true love in the burn vampires kind because it is not properly bidirectional.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 03:44:02 PM
He will. If he keeps the coin long enough. Remember Hannah? When you have that coin you can not even trust what you see and hear.

Yeah, but Hannah was never Marcone.  He is a wheeler dealer, he likes to be in control, he likes power.  Short term and and Namshiel will get along just fine, but how long will he like not calling the shots?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 03:48:13 PM
Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 03:59:25 PM
Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.

Only if their agendas match.. 
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: riff.freelance on September 30, 2020, 04:09:02 PM
My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 04:13:03 PM
My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.

Could be, this is what Lasciel tried to sell Harry on.  However if Marcone continues to get something out of it, well, we will see.  Yes, he got what he wanted in the fight against the Titian, but that is over now.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 04:15:35 PM
Yeah, but Hannah was never Marcone.  He is a wheeler dealer, he likes to be in control, he likes power.  Short term and and Namshiel will get along just fine, but how long will he like not calling the shots?
That doesn’t matter because he will always think he is calling the shots. Just like Nicodemus does and he was manipulated into killing his own daughter. There is always room to fall even more.

Remember what Lash tried to do and that was only the shadow, not the fallen itself. She invented persons to influence him. She altered Harry’s view of reality and made him more angry. All according to the rules apparently. Marcone gets the same treatment only worse and he chose to wear it. Marcone has to give up the coin or he will be its slave sooner or later.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 30, 2020, 05:47:53 PM
My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.

Nope he is a tiger, and probably a type of host Namshiel has never encountered.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: vultur on September 30, 2020, 07:12:00 PM
What is odd is that Namshiel and thus Marcone can use magic. Especially since no other Fallen uses magic unless their host is a wizard.

I think it's a matter of preferences/approach, not limited ability.

We know that it's technically possible for "regular people" to learn magic, but without the Sight it's compared to a blind person learning to paint. With a Fallen's knowledge, that can probably be overcome.

But it's probably a lot quicker/easier to turn into a giant monster Ursiel/Magog style, especially for someone who already knows how to fight.

And Harry calls Namshiel "Master of Sorcery". His preferences likely make that something he would offer early on (bring it up even if the host doesn't know it's possible) - not so for Ursiel or Magog.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 07:46:46 PM
Namshiel can probably provide the Sight
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: riff.freelance on September 30, 2020, 07:55:57 PM
I think it's a matter of preferences/approach, not limited ability.

We know that it's technically possible for "regular people" to learn magic, but without the Sight it's compared to a blind person learning to paint. With a Fallen's knowledge, that can probably be overcome.

But it's probably a lot quicker/easier to turn into a giant monster Ursiel/Magog style, especially for someone who already knows how to fight.

And Harry calls Namshiel "Master of Sorcery". His preferences likely make that something he would offer early on (bring it up even if the host doesn't know it's possible) - not so for Ursiel or Magog.

And we've seen what even a modest talent can get up to with the proper supervision: Butters and Bob. I personally think that if the fallen really wanted to they could get wizard level ability out of anyone they chose to co-pilot... with the proper effort. Effort some don't choose to expend.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: dylanfa on September 30, 2020, 07:57:23 PM
I think people are wrong to assume Harry won't use the Eye. He will, but the point of Mab's love/hate vs. reason wasn't the reason it part - it was to provide a hint that while the Eye has traditionally been powered by intense hate, Harry will find some way to do something with it fueled by "The Power of Love(tm)."
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: vultur on September 30, 2020, 08:08:43 PM
Namshiel can probably provide the Sight

I agree; even if it's not exactly the same thing as what a conventional wizard would use, the Fallen can absolutely perceive magical energies itself, and it can use its ability to influence the host's perceptions to convey that.

I think any of the Denarian Fallen could do this, but the personalities & needs of host and Fallen mean that they usually don't. The ones that are just thugs and go through hosts quickly (like Magog) don't bother, and some of the others probably usually pick hosts who already are magical practitioners.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on September 30, 2020, 10:06:24 PM
I think people are wrong to assume Harry won't use the Eye. He will, but the point of Mab's love/hate vs. reason wasn't the reason it part - it was to provide a hint that while the Eye has traditionally been powered by intense hate, Harry will find some way to do something with it fueled by "The Power of Love(tm)."

It may wait for the BAT, but I agree, if it is needed Harry will use it.  When you think about it, it isn't too much of a stretch, at this point anyway, Harry hates Outsiders, he also hates the Black Court.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: ClintACK on September 30, 2020, 11:31:30 PM
Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.

Two points:
(1) All of the Denarians who are partners (like Nicodemus, Tessa, and Deirdre) are called by the host's name. Those who were fully subjugated (like Magog and Ursiel) are called by the fallen's name. In Small Favor, Thorned Namshiel was called Thorned Namshiel.

(Counterpoint: In Skin Game, Ursiel's host seemed to be in charge, so the same fallen might subjugate one host but "partner" with another. Or start out "partners" with a long slow slide into subjugation.)

(2) There are really strong indications in Skin Game (Michael's conversation with Nicodemus in the Vault) that Nicodemus isn't actually an equal partner -- that he's not a subjugated slave, but that he's still manipulated by the fallen and after thousands of years of such manipulation he's no more free than Ursiel's first host was. He just doesn't realize it.

Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: EBRIEN on October 01, 2020, 12:38:07 AM
Murphy's scene was rough but gave a good glimpse at what a villain-Harry could be.

I'm curious about the smell of sulphur and brimstone when Butters passed the sword thru Harry. Winter Knight mantle wouldn't smell like that. Residual Lash?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: morriswalters on October 01, 2020, 04:06:24 AM
Sulfur is brimstone more or less.  God likes it. Ask Sodom and Gomorrah. Jim may have meant fire and brimstone. As in a biblical judgement of his deed.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 01, 2020, 04:31:31 AM
It is the flip side of Harry’s soul fire. Harry can use both but not at the same time.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 01, 2020, 08:54:57 PM
I will also be interested to see what happens with the Grey Council now...especially since Harry is even more isolated than before.
I had a thought that Harry just goes about calling himself "Harry Dresden, Wizard of the Grey Council," etc.

Let's play a new game.  Who got Bob?
I think Harry gets to take him on day trips, but Butters has full custody. Unless Butters and the Alphas move in with Harry. He's got the room.

Murphy's scene was rough.
For me it was more the scenes after when Harry is dealing with it. Probably the one after he doesn't off Rudolph.
Since Harry's new title is Wizard of Chicago, can he become a member of the accords?
With the signature of two representatives on the Accords. His bride, an ally on the White Council, and River Shoulders. Substitute any of them for some other ally.

Also, Ethniu seemed to know the Angel she was talking to. Personally. Called him traitor and coward. Seems like they both were once on the same team, and his siding with TWG and humanity seems an act of treachery.
Was she speaking to the angel or TWG?

What is odd is that Namshiel and thus Marcone can use magic. Especially since no other Fallen uses magic unless their host is a wizard.
We've seen most of the Denarians who get a good deal of screen time use magic at least a little. They only one who didn't was Nico.

I want to know what was behind Marcone giving Harry the Eye?  ...  What will he do when Namshiel starts to call the shots?  Will he ultimately reject the coin then  and become a Knight?
Harry hints that part of that was to get him thrown out of the Council. I also think that Marcone is trying to hide the fact of Namshiel. A lot of his reputation is as a mortal who pulls off all these amazing feats. That's an arc a lot of people want. I'd prefer Harry going toe to toe with him in an all out fight.

I'd assume that Marcone's ability to use magic is something he negotiated for specifically, before he fully took up Namshiel's coin.
It's been said everyone has magical talent and what really separates practitioners from everyone else is the ability to sense it. Namshiel should have the ability to allow Marcone to sense it and be able to supply plenty of fuel. Harry mentions that Marcone's spells weren't powerful, just advanced.

However I cannot see him playing second fiddle to a coin.
That's what surprised me about him taking the coin up.

Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.
I think Jim said something about how he's basically just a magic nerd. But he's obviously pretty evil and hates mortals based on 1) he's fallen and 2) what he said to Harry in Small Favor.

I'm curious about the smell of sulphur and brimstone when Butters passed the sword thru Harry. Winter Knight mantle wouldn't smell like that. Residual Lash?
What Arjan said, but with a question mark.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on October 01, 2020, 09:28:46 PM
Maybe Marcone changed his mind, he is residing in Marcone’s grey matter after all. Namshiel has had hosts he can dominate, Marcone must have been a revelation.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 01, 2020, 09:55:14 PM
Maybe Marcone changed his mind, he is residing in Marcone’s grey matter after all. Namshiel has had hosts he can dominate, Marcone must have been a revelation.

Early days, early days, it may be that Namshiel and Marcone had a common goal to save Chicago and gain the power that comes with it.  And lets face it, it isn't like Marcone is going to be corrupted by a Fallen angel..
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 01, 2020, 10:00:34 PM
Maybe Marcone changed his mind, he is residing in Marcone’s grey matter after all. Namshiel has had hosts he can dominate, Marcone must have been a revelation.

What is the goal?

Every Fallen must have one.

Is Thorned Namshiel's goal to simply amass more and more knowledge and power? Then he doesn't need to dominate Marcone; leaving Marcone as he is allows a steady supply of Namshiel's preferred drug.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 01, 2020, 10:37:01 PM
What is the goal?

Every Fallen must have one.

Is Thorned Namshiel's goal to simply amass more and more knowledge and power? Then he doesn't need to dominate Marcone; leaving Marcone as he is allows a steady supply of Namshiel's preferred drug.
The fallen's ultimate goal is to corrupt his host and everyone else. Marcone will be corrupted too.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 01, 2020, 11:41:23 PM
The fallen's ultimate goal is to corrupt his host and everyone else. Marcone will be corrupted too.

Or he is a perfect skunk like Nic and they will live a wonderful life together..
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Snark Knight on October 01, 2020, 11:43:49 PM
And how with Thomas react when he's inevitably pulled out of the box?

The thought of Thomas' reaction is reason enough to hope Harry and Lara do go through with the wedding.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Snark Knight on October 01, 2020, 11:49:35 PM
I think Harry gets to take him on day trips, but Butters has full custody. Unless Butters and the Alphas move in with Harry. He's got the room.

That might be prudent. Will & Georgia have had a couple of attacks against their home, and Butters is potentially quite vulnerable to mortal goons and hired guns. Plus if they're going to continue the BFS' use of the castle as a safe house for paranet members as guests, it's probably wise to have more than one combat-capable full time resident.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 01, 2020, 11:53:12 PM
Or he is a perfect skunk like Nic and they will live a wonderful life together..
Killing his daughter. It shows how corrupted he got. The fallen always want to corrupt you even more
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on October 02, 2020, 12:05:55 AM
That might be prudent. Will & Georgia have had a couple of attacks against their home, and Butters is potentially quite vulnerable to mortal goons and hired guns. Plus if they're going to continue the BFS' use of the castle as a safe house for paranet members as guests, it's probably wise to have more than one combat-capable full time resident.



Harry is going to require staff for the Castle including PA’s Why not take a page from Vadderung but instead of a pair of ravens, werewolves, Andi and Marci. Seriously, moving the Knights to the Castle is an obvious move, it has accommodation and training facilities
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 02, 2020, 02:30:31 AM
Killing his daughter. It shows how corrupted he got. The fallen always want to corrupt you even more

Yet he seemed to think it was worth it, he got what he had asked for though he didn't get what he wanted thanks to Harry.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 02, 2020, 05:39:40 AM
Yet he seemed to think it was worth it, he got what he had asked for though he didn't get what he wanted thanks to Harry.
Of course he did. Anduriel has him exactly where he wants him.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Narsham on October 02, 2020, 04:26:22 PM
But he wouldn't would he?  I mean the Eye is merely a tool, a weapon of pure hate.  I doubt that Namshiel would play second fiddle to the eye, but Marcone might, which would make him less useful perhaps?

The Eye has to be fueled by hate, or love. Marcone isn't entirely emotionless, but I doubt he has the juice to do much with it. I expect he's having the same problem with magic: his control is phenomenal, but he doesn't have much power beyond what Namshiel can channel to him.

Plus he deliberately wanted everyone to know Harry had the Eye, knowing they would trust him less as a consequence and that Harry wouldn't actually use it. Getting that turned back upon him by Harry had to come as a shock and almost certainly dealt Marcone more trouble than losing the castle did.

An interesting thing to consider: Harry had to coerce Marcone into taking in a few hundred people as refugees. Those people included children. Would a younger Marcone have hesitated to protect children in the same circumstances? Has Namshiel already started to influence him?

I also consider it unclear whether Namshiel got Nemesis'ed, which would make matters even more complicated later.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 02, 2020, 05:42:49 PM
Of course he did. Anduriel has him exactly where he wants him.

Harry or Nic?

Quote
I also consider it unclear whether Namshiel got Nemesis'ed, which would make matters even more complicated later.

Hadn't thought of that, it would be nasty.  It also answers the question of who got the Crown Royal sack of Coins back in Small Favor.  I can see Marcone, desperate to save the city and always looking for a new angle to gain power taking up the Coin.  The question then becomes, if he does have the sack of Coins, who else is he going to tempt to take one up and become a real pain in the ass.

Here is another thought, the Denarians are all ready split into two camps, Nic's little group and Tessa's little group, I cannot see Marcone being subservient to either group, so does he create a third little group?  Now does this make it harder for Sanya and Butters?  Or easier?  I still think at some point Bradley is going to take up the third Sword.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 02, 2020, 06:17:23 PM
Harry or Nic?
Nicodemus. Anduriel had corrupted Nicodemus even further.

 
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: TheCuriousFan on October 02, 2020, 09:33:16 PM
Harry or Nic?

Hadn't thought of that, it would be nasty.  It also answers the question of who got the Crown Royal sack of Coins back in Small Favor.  I can see Marcone, desperate to save the city and always looking for a new angle to gain power taking up the Coin.  The question then becomes, if he does have the sack of Coins, who else is he going to tempt to take one up and become a real pain in the ass.

Here is another thought, the Denarians are all ready split into two camps, Nic's little group and Tessa's little group, I cannot see Marcone being subservient to either group, so does he create a third little group?  Now does this make it harder for Sanya and Butters?  Or easier?  I still think at some point Bradley is going to take up the third Sword.
Quote from: Skin Game Chapter 24
Three figures faced one another. One was a large man dressed in a long overcoat and wielding a slightly curved sword in one hand, an old cavalry saber. He carried what might have been a sawed-off shotgun in the other. His skin was dark, and though his head hadn’t been shaved like that the last time I’d seen him, it could really have been only one person.

“Sanya,” I said.

The world’s only Knight of the Cross was standing across from two blurry figures. Both were in motion, as if charging toward him. One was approximately the same size and shape as a large gorilla. The other was covered in a thick layer of feathers that gave an otherwise humanoid shape an odd, shaggy appearance.

“Magog and Shaggy Feathers,” I muttered. “Hell’s bells, those Coins are slippery. When were these taken?”
Shaggy Feathers was in the sack that got taken in Small Favour, Tessa got the bag, not Marcone.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 04:33:32 AM
Is Thorned Namshiel's goal to simply amass more and more knowledge and power? Then he doesn't need to dominate Marcone; leaving Marcone as he is allows a steady supply of Namshiel's preferred drug.
That's basically what Jim said years ago about Namshiel. That he was just a magic nerd who wanted to play with magic.

I also consider it unclear whether Namshiel got Nemesis'ed, which would make matters even more complicated later.
I read that Jim said, in the B&N interview, the Fallen can be infected, but there isn't much of a point because they don't have any free will.

P.S. I can't access the B&N interview. All the links I've tried go nowhere.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Telynn on October 03, 2020, 04:51:19 AM
Here is my question, how seriously did you take the statement that Thomas was 'lost' to them?  It really shocked me for a moment.  I mean, I thought Thomas was somewhat safe, until they could figure out how to get him out unharmed, which I figured Lara would be discussing with Harry right away.

If Butcher had written "lost for now" or something I could see it, but the way it was worded sounded like he was gone.  Like for good.  It bothered me because there had been so much loss, and that on top was just too damn much!
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: simkin on October 03, 2020, 05:20:27 PM
It’s been awhile since I’ve logged in so I almost certainly have missed some things. Hopefully filling in those gaps won’t be so painful. So here’s my thoughts...

1) Did I miss something? Why is everyone so certain Mac is related to angels? He seemed more keyed into (Norse?) mythology in the short story with the Grendel...

2) marcone is obsessed with Dresden. Dresden is the one that pulled him into the supernatural world. He spends a lot of time interacting with and researching him. I imagine that marcone became interested in taking up the coin in part after seeing/hearing of Dresden successfully manage and then give his up. I also consider the fact he didn’t give Hendricks his “best friend?” One, even when little a apocalypse was happening, a sign that he sees it as a necessary evil not something to be whole heartedly embraced.

3) I’m more interested in the new perspective of the swords (and therefore the coins), and the interactions between our titan and thorn of the coin and butters of the sword. Seems like the Christian powers of light and dark aren’t the final true form of power but merely the modern version of old conflicts. Ángels and demons instead being former gods and powers that joined a side, but like any family in dispute, come together to fight “outsiders”.

4) Dresden having a kid of lara seems like just a parallel of Harry’s life. Maggie’s is Harry and Lara baby is her version of new Thomas . Letting Harry retroactively fix his family by creating what “should have been “.  Also, seems like it is signing Lara’s death warrant. Harry’s love interests don’t have much luck. “Die alone” or not.

5) what makes you guys think the “monsters” don’t know the white council has been corrupted? The white council is generally considered the representative of vanilla people and not only were they not invited to the final meeting, but they talked about humanity as being the enemy.

6) also, seems to me that the primary purpose of starborn doesn’t necessarily have to do with outsiders, or at least not in the way Harry thinks. We had starborn on all sides of the last conflict (ally of titan - listen, enemy of titan - Harry, and 3rd party opportunist - drakul). Additionally, seems in character for Eb to mention a minor feature (resistant to outsiders) as if it was super important, in order to obfuscate the real information. Not to mention Mab’s side comment about the limits of immortality may become important to Harry in the future seemed related, what with how eb didn’t like it.

Maybe someone is trying to breed a new god and take control of the next age, writing the rules of magic and arranging the landscape of powers as they see fit. Probably makes cowl a star born, as he tried it first. Otherwise, Harry deals with gods way too much.

I wonder how many starborn are in demonreach’s holding cells.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 05:27:06 PM
Marcone and Harry soul gazed so they know where they can cooperate and ultimately clash.

For most accord members humanity is a potentially huge problem if they can not keep their secrets. From problem to enemy is only a small step.

But they should not make that step. It will only make things worse. Part of the solution could be to let the more friendly types do the communication or set up alliances.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 06:48:28 PM
@simkim: 1. It was mostly the Watcher comment in Cold Days. It's basically confirmed in a couple of places in Battle Ground like when Harry calls him an ex-angel.

2. Hendricks either didn't know Marcone had taken up the coin or died to keep the fact that Marcone had taken up the coin secret. Either way, I think this shows that Marcone very much wants to keep the fact that he's a Nicklehead a secret.

4. Elaine's not dead. Yet.

6. Yeah. I think there's got to be a lot more to the whole starborn thing than just power over/resistance to Outsiders.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 07:22:15 PM
2. Hendricks either didn't know Marcone had taken up the coin or died to keep the fact that Marcone had taken up the coin secret. Either way, I think this shows that Marcone very much wants to keep the fact that he's a Nicklehead a secret.
Of course. He does not want all the enemies Namshiel and the fallen collected to be his enemies too.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 07:34:22 PM
@Arjan: I hadn't considered that.

I figured it was because much of his prestige is that he, a simple mortal, got on the Accords, held his territory, and bested Nicodemus without lifting a finger against him.

Doing all that with the help of a Fallen angel is much less impressive.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on October 03, 2020, 08:00:15 PM
Bradley is the new Murphy, he is I think going to SI and will act as Harry’s liaison.

The reason I think this is that the character has been set up for a running joke, like Murphy with her being exactly five feet tall “Five O”.

In BG where Bradley meets Harry for the second time he is described like an armoured personnel carrier. The main US armoured personnel carrier is....the Bradley. Going back to PT on their first meeting his suit is described as neutral ,designed to blend into the business world, I would think almost like camouflage?

On his third meeting he is literally carrying personnel, his daughter and Rudy.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 03, 2020, 08:35:02 PM
Bradley is the new Murphy, he is I think going to SI and will act as Harry’s liaison.

The reason I think this is that the character has been set up for a running joke, like Murphy with her being exactly five feet tall “Five O”.

In BG where Bradley meets Harry for the second time he is described like an armoured personnel carrier. The main US armoured personnel carrier is....the Bradley. Going back to PT on their first meeting his suit is described as neutral ,designed to blend into the business world, I would think almost like camouflage?

On his third meeting he is literally carrying personnel, his daughter and Rudy.

Oh I think Bradley is the new Third Knight when it is needed.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 08:48:54 PM
Bradley is the new Murphy.
I didn't notice the sexual tension.  ;)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 03, 2020, 09:18:21 PM
I didn't notice the sexual tension.  ;)
??? :o
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 04, 2020, 01:48:18 AM
So does this mean thorned Namshiel is off the list of who attacked Arctis Tor?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 04, 2020, 02:52:44 AM
So does this mean thorned Namshiel is off the list of who attacked Arctis Tor?

No, different body same nickle.. ::)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 06, 2020, 08:16:13 PM
When Namshiel gets control of Marcone it will be by using Marcone's little secret shame in a coma.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 06, 2020, 08:25:32 PM
It’s been awhile since I’ve logged in so I almost certainly have missed some things. Hopefully filling in those gaps won’t be so painful. So here’s my thoughts...

1) Did I miss something? Why is everyone so certain Mac is related to angels? He seemed more keyed into (Norse?) mythology in the short story with the Grendel...


He was Norse mythologied- doesn't mean he himself is from Norse mythology.

One of my long ago hairy theories was Mac as Loki; that would have been fun.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 01:21:08 AM
I've been reading this thread. A few comments.

When Namshiel gets control of Marcone it will be by using Marcone's little secret shame in a coma.
I thought the same. I don't know exactly how, but that girl is involved. Also, Marcone won't be subjugated by the Fallen. They will work as equal partners or Marcone will dominate him. But I think sometime in the future, Marcone will ask Harry and the KotC for help to get rid of it. I don't know. I just want to see Marcone asking Harry for help  :)

Another question I have is: what's up with the conjuritis? It is over by the end of the book? Does it has a meaning before just a random sickness with side effects? I thought it meant that Harry had got it from Maggie, who would be revealed as a witch. But as nothing is mentioned in the book or, six months later, in CS, I am not sure now.

Last thing (I mentioned it in a thread about Justine), will Nemesis carry the baby? Will they be born between books? What utility will the baby have for Nemesis? A host?
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 07, 2020, 01:29:16 AM
Hehe, I see it differently. Harry and Marcone are almost fated to throw down, they allude to it all the time almost every interaction anymore... Think Harry's finally going to have to pick up his own sword to balance out Marcones power.. hopefully, literally Hope. It would mesh with his charlie brown ideals. Never stop trying.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 07, 2020, 01:32:16 AM
Another question I have is: what's up with the conjuritis? It is over by the end of the book? Does it has a meaning before just a random sickness with side effects? I thought it meant that Harry had got it from Maggie, who would be revealed as a witch. But as nothing is mentioned in the book or, six months later, in CS, I am not sure now.
Maybe Harry having a magical childhood malady let's him learn something about conjuring other wizards don't know because they were too young when they had it. Maybe the Maggie reveal comes later. Also, it's Christmas Eve, not Christmas Story.

Think Harry's finally going to have to pick up his own sword to balance out Marcones power.. hopefully, literally Hope.
Thanks for killing Sanya!  ;)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 07, 2020, 01:38:19 AM
Thanks for killing Sanya!  ;)
mwahahaha 😈
I think Jim's adhering to the ideal 'hope never dies' and that's why Sanya has been a constant throughout the series. If he does die Harry will pick it up almost immediately.
On the same topic, I loved that Sanya came and got his ass kicked by Harry. That scene spoke volumes to me. If Harry had killed Rudolph hope would have been lost for him, Sanya prevented that l. I don't think the sword of hope is as powerfully flashy as the other two, but it's steady and inexorable... I'm even wondering if Jim didn't show that Harry could kick his ass as kinda a metaphor for Harry being on the same wavelength. Some kinda opposite reference from when butters showed up to thwart snake boy.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 01:43:20 AM
Maybe Harry having a magical childhood malady let's him learn something about conjuring other wizards don't know because they were too young when they had it. Maybe the Maggie reveal comes later. Also, it's Christmas Eve, not Christmas Story.
*facepalms* Yes, thank you.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Snark Knight on October 07, 2020, 02:04:12 AM
Hehe, I see it differently. Harry and Marcone are almost fated to throw down, they allude to it all the time almost every interaction anymore... Think Harry's finally going to have to pick up his own sword to balance out Marcones power.. hopefully, literally Hope. It would mesh with his charlie brown ideals. Never stop trying.

Jim loves to foreshadow an expectation and then take a hard turn away from it, though. Murphy teased to take up a sword, or the Valkyrie job offer for its "health plan" ... nope, breaks a sword, then dead.  Most people expecting Eb to bite it in the battle as the classic "death of the mentor" moment ... nope, alive, and the Council's gun pointed at Harry.

Marcone and Harry's mutual expectation to eventually throw down is the best reason to think something else is going to end up happening.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 07, 2020, 02:36:27 AM
Marcone and Harry's mutual expectation to eventually throw down is the best reason to think something else is going to end up happening.
ooh, I'd argue most of those were simply fan expectations not forshadowing (especially Eb dying) but that does ring somewhat true there. There's another candidate for taking on what I perceive to be the fallen version of king Arthur... The risen version of Mordred lol.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: ClintACK on October 07, 2020, 03:01:43 AM
Bradley is the new Murphy, he is I think going to SI and will act as Harry’s liaison.

The reason I think this is that the character has been set up for a running joke, like Murphy with her being exactly five feet tall “Five O”.

In BG where Bradley meets Harry for the second time he is described like an armoured personnel carrier. The main US armoured personnel carrier is....the Bradley. Going back to PT on their first meeting his suit is described as neutral ,designed to blend into the business world, I would think almost like camouflage?

On his third meeting he is literally carrying personnel, his daughter and Rudy.

Wow. Really well-spotted. These are the little tidbits I love about the Dresdenfiles, but I almost never pick them up on my first reading.

Bradley is the new Murphy
I didn't notice the sexual tension.  ;)

You didn't?

Quote from: Peace Talks
I eyed the other guy. He was about five feet, six inches -- in all three dimensions. I seriously couldn't remember the time I'd seen a guy built so solidly. He wore a tailored suit, because I doubted anything fit him off the rack, but it was made of neutral, plain materials, meant to blend into the background of the business world. His salt-and-pepper hair was buzzed short, and his face was rough with beard shadow that I suspected appeared about ten seconds after he was done shaving. Something about the way he held himself, the way his eyes were focused on nothing in particular, put me on notice that he knew what he was doing better than most.

I mean, I think the paragraph ended just because Harry couldn't think of any more ways to say that Detective Bradley was very, very manly.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dragen3 on October 07, 2020, 04:24:45 AM
Bradley being the new "friend on the force" seems plausible. Considering one of the more memorable scenes in Battle Grounds involves him coming to the aid of his daughter. If Bradley ends up becoming a Knight. It will probably be during the BAT since the sword of Love (or Family) is the most likely one for him to wield and it has been strongly suggested that a new wielder for that Sword is not going to happen until then.

If their is a big throwdown between Harry and Marcone, I suspect it will be in the BAT, more specifically in Hells Bells, since that seems like the most likely place for a a resolution against a Hell Knight.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 06:31:12 AM
Wow. Really well-spotted. These are the little tidbits I love about the Dresdenfiles, but I almost never pick them up on my first reading.
Me neither, that is why I need to reread both books soon
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on October 07, 2020, 08:01:39 AM
I believe Karrin was referred to as a Knight by Tiny, before the Sword when she drew her badge on him in Mac’s

Simply put one may be a Knight without picking up a Sword, Coin or Mantle, and I believe that is Bradley”s role, a Knight of the City. We know he has both the courage and the ability. I could imagine Bradley in the same position drawing his badge on Tiny.

For example Eb comes to Chicago to execute Harry, I could see Bradley Thorn Manacling him and then taking him on in quarterstaff fight and winning.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Avernite on October 07, 2020, 05:38:43 PM
Hehe, I see it differently. Harry and Marcone are almost fated to throw down, they allude to it all the time almost every interaction anymore... Think Harry's finally going to have to pick up his own sword to balance out Marcones power.. hopefully, literally Hope. It would mesh with his charlie brown ideals. Never stop trying.
Nonsense.

In this book Faith, Hope, and Love faced off with Ethniu. And the greatest of them was Love (personified by Harry). Faith and Hope got him there, but Love won in the end.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 07, 2020, 05:44:11 PM
Nonsense.
excuse me?
Quote
In this book Faith, Hope, and Love faced off with Ethniu. And the greatest of them was Love (personified by Harry). Faith and Hope got him there, but Love won in the end.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
, harry didn't use love and Harry didn't personify love in this book. Harry is not yet in touch with what makes him tick, and by and large love has been absent from his life. Hope and duty have been omniscient in it.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 05:58:53 PM
Counterpoint: Besides his love for his family and friends, he was protected by True Love twice. Jim has said that True Love is extremely rare, but Harry got it twice. I am sure that is extraordinary (sensu stricto, it is out of ordinary, by far).
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 06:18:45 PM
Counterpoint: Besides his love for his family and friends, he was protected by True Love twice. Jim has said that True Love is extremely rare, but Harry got it twice. I am sure that is extraordinary (sensu stricto, it is out of ordinary, by far).

  Yeah, I imagine that Lara will insist that Harry take at least one lover in the coming year to neutralize his protection from Murphy. Or it will be a marriage in name only and never consummated.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 06:33:34 PM
Well, you know that I've been posting for years that I did not think Harry really loved Murphy. I mean, he cares a lot for her, and definitely loves her, but not LOVE her. Then PT happened, with a True Love that surprised me. And then, she died. So my idea is that, from a literary point of view, the only reason why JB included True Love is for giving Harry a protection from whampires. That way he can even be married with Lara and still not have sex with her. (Of course, something can happen that prevents the wedding for happening at all but anyway). It will also explain that Lara does not have sex with him during courtship.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: bigdangmoose on October 07, 2020, 06:52:44 PM
Well, you know that I've been posting for years that I did not think Harry really loved Murphy. I mean, he cares a lot for her, and definitely loves her, but not LOVE her. Then PT happened, with a True Love that surprised me. And then, she died. So my idea is that, from a literary point of view, the only reason why JB included True Love is for giving Harry a protection from whampires. That way he can even be married with Lara and still not have sex with her. (Of course, something can happen that prevents the wedding for happening at all but anyway). It will also explain that Lara does not have sex with him during courtship.

Yeah, I had the same thoughts on the sudden realization of the protection. It was a quick fish to the face, suprising to be hit with it and wondering why you were hit with it.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 06:58:16 PM
Well, you know that I've been posting for years that I did not think Harry really loved Murphy. I mean, he cares a lot for her, and definitely loves her, but not LOVE her. Then PT happened, with a True Love that surprised me. And then, she died. So my idea is that, from a literary point of view, the only reason why JB included True Love is for giving Harry a protection from whampires. That way he can even be married with Lara and still not have sex with her. (Of course, something can happen that prevents the wedding for happening at all but anyway). It will also explain that Lara does not have sex with him during courtship.

Maybe one can feel true love without knowing it?  Or does the true love have to be mutual for it to protect against the Hunger?  It could be what Murphy felt for Harry was true love, that is what Nic was taunting her about in Skin Game as he beat the snot out of her.  Harry did love her, but like he loved Susan?  This time around he isn't allowing himself to go into a deep depression, he has a little girl to look after like he did when Susan left.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: forumghost on October 07, 2020, 07:09:33 PM
  Yeah, I imagine that Lara will insist that Harry take at least one lover in the coming year to neutralize his protection from Murphy. Or it will be a marriage in name only and never consummated.

I mean I'm kinda reminded of the last Wedding Harry went too.

Quote
“Uh,” he said, somehow giving the impression that he’d shrugged. “A kiss ought to do it. You know. True love, Prince Charming, that kind of thing.”

“That won’t be hard,” I said, relaxing a little. “We’ll definitely get to the wedding before he goes off alone with Jenny and gets drowned.”

“Oh, good,” Bob said. “Of course, the girl still kicks off, but you can’t save all the people, all the time.”

“What?” I demanded. “Why does Georgia die?”

“Oh, if the Werewolf kid goes through the ceremony with Jenny and plights his troth and so on, it’s going to contaminate him. I mean, if he’s married to another, it can’t really be pure love. Jenny’s claim on him would prevent the kiss from lifting the spell.”

“Which means Georgia won’t wake up,” I said, chewing on my lip.

Of course that was for Faerie magic, not Whampire shenanigans, but I wouldn't be surprised if that'd break it. (though tbh the most likely scenario is Harry finding a way out of it somehow. Normally it takes at least one book for him to destroy a romantic relationship, but this time he's got a year to plan ahead)
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 07:22:34 PM
Maybe one can feel true love without knowing it?  Or does the true love have to be mutual for it to protect against the Hunger?  It could be what Murphy felt for Harry was true love, that is what Nic was taunting her about in Skin Game as he beat the snot out of her.  Harry did love her, but like he loved Susan?  This time around he isn't allowing himself to go into a deep depression, he has a little girl to look after like he did when Susan left.
I've been wondering about that (because of the Justine-Thomas thing) but so far I had understood that protection only occurred with mutual True Love (that is why Harry was not protected with Luccio, who was mind-controlled). Still, I may be wrong.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 07:23:07 PM
Quote
Of course that was for Faerie magic, not Whampire shenanigans, but I wouldn't be surprised if that'd break it. (though tbh the most likely scenario is Harry finding a way out of it somehow. Normally it takes at least one book for him to destroy a romantic relationship, but this time he's got a year to plan ahead)

Ya think Molly might break it up?  I think she would if she could get away from it.  Somehow I don't see the wedding happening, at this point I don't see it enhancing the over all story, but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: forumghost on October 07, 2020, 07:34:12 PM
Ya think Molly might break it up?  I think she would if she could get away from it.  Somehow I don't see the wedding happening, at this point I don't see it enhancing the over all story, but that's just my opinion.

I think that Mab knows Harry well enough that she knew he'd try to weasel out of this. So now he's gonna be forced to interact with both Lara and Molly a lot over the next year, giving plenty of time for him to either soften up to the idea, or plot an escape with a willing conspirator.

Either way probably works for her, so long as she both gets her alliance, and teaches Harry to stop being such a blunt instrument.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Bad Alias on October 07, 2020, 08:43:28 PM
You didn't?

I mean, I think the paragraph ended just because Harry couldn't think of any more ways to say that Detective Bradley was very, very manly.
Well yeah, but Bradley never reciprocated.

That way he can even be married with Lara and still not have sex with her.
Strictly speaking, Lara can't feed on Harry. It might be possible for her to have sex with Harry and not feed.

Normally it takes at least one book for him to destroy a romantic relationship, but this time he's got a year to plan ahead)
:D

I had understood that protection only occurred with mutual True Love.
I'm pretty sure that's the case. It's why Jim said a parent's love for children does nothing. It's not mutual.

Either way probably works for her, so long as she both gets her alliance, and teaches Harry to stop being such a blunt instrument.
Yeah. If Harry finds a way out, it's probably by offering everyone a better deal.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Avernite on October 07, 2020, 08:45:19 PM
excuse me? , harry didn't use love and Harry didn't personify love in this book. Harry is not yet in touch with what makes him tick, and by and large love has been absent from his life. Hope and duty have been omniscient in it.
Sorry, guess the nonsense came across harshly.

But when Ethniu has him dead to rights, what pulls him through? Love of Family. Not hope or duty.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Mira on October 07, 2020, 09:29:44 PM
Sorry, guess the nonsense came across harshly.

But when Ethniu has him dead to rights, what pulls him through? Love of Family. Not hope or duty.

Mouse saved the day!! ;D  Yup, you are right, it was the iron grip hug from little Maggie and Mouse leaning in on his legs that helped him to focus his will with such strength that Ethniu was powerless against it.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: Dina on October 07, 2020, 09:32:08 PM
Strictly speaking, Lara can't feed on Harry. It might be possible for her to have sex with Harry and not feed.
 :D

Yes, but we know that is not Lara's style. It is possible, but would be difficult for her

Mouse saved the day!! ;D  Yup, you are right, it was the iron grip hug from little Maggie and Mouse leaning in on his legs that helped him to focus his will with such strength that Ethniu was powerless against it.

In the "memory" scene I was all but shouting to Harry "It's not true. Mouse is not there" but I understand he was too involved to realized that immediately.
Title: Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
Post by: CrusherJen on October 07, 2020, 09:57:23 PM
Quote
Strictly speaking, Lara can't feed on Harry. It might be possible for her to have sex with Harry and not feed.

I don't think it's likely, considering a mere brush of Harry's skin in Peace Talks was enough to burn Lara.

Unless the protection is broken beforehand, or the marriage vows invalidate it, there's no way for Harry and Lara to be intimate. But who knows what lurks in the mind of Jim?  ;D