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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on September 15, 2020, 04:15:17 PM

Title: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: ClintACK on September 15, 2020, 04:15:17 PM
Wow.

https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/battle-ground-17/battle-ground-chapter-3 (https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/battle-ground-17/battle-ground-chapter-3)
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: kel0700 on September 15, 2020, 04:29:58 PM
Amazing chapter, even though it was short. Can't wait for this book.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: knightedbishop on September 15, 2020, 05:00:44 PM
So, I think this makes it clear that Mac is (or was) one of the angelic watchers talked about in the Book of Enoch. Retired? Fallen? Did he have a Nephilim child? More to be told, I’m sure.

I wonder how Dresden figured out the power of the placard. Seems pretty specific. And interesting. And small scale thinking if he gave it to Mac. He could have given it to Marcone and hustled many more people into the BFS castle.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Silentbrick on September 15, 2020, 05:04:24 PM
And if he gave it to Marcone, he'd never get it back.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 15, 2020, 05:06:02 PM
I wonder how Dresden figured out the power of the placard. Seems pretty specific.
That's what I was thinking. I don't think anyone has commented here about any legend they've heard about the placard.

He could have given it to Marcone and hustled many more people into the BFS castle.
It probably wasn't "one of the designated shelters" because that's where the talks were going down.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 15, 2020, 05:25:55 PM
Still tormenting us about Mac, still!

Intellectus (of more than just Demonreach or about the written word) is something we have only seen in the Mothers and Archangels. It does explain why Mac doesn’t need to speak, he already knows.

Exactly how much research has Harry done on the objects, when and how? He suddenly has all this knowledge, when ignorance has been his most enduring feature. So the Placard is a super threshold, which puts Macanally’s on par with the Carpenters supernaturally, which is  powered by multiple Angels. Does this mean the bar can now withstand the eye of Balor? Is it just the bar, if Mac owns the entire building is that covered as well? That means they still have to defend against purely physical force, which is where Murphy comes in I suppose.

It’s original purpose on the crucifixtion would have been to protect Christ on the cross from supernatural intervention, but from who? Christ owned the Cross?

Is that as Harry has the Placard this is how he gets the Castle?it can only be used by someone who owns the building it is part of, so to create the perfect supernatural bomb shelter Harry has to own it. Harry becomes Marcone’s Landlord? Will Harry make Marcon shoevel the paths in Winter, even though as Winter Knight he doesn’t need them shovelled?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 15, 2020, 05:50:32 PM


   So, if Harry looked at Mac with his sight, it would blind him or hurt him in some way.  Okay, seeing Shaggy with his sight gave him a severe migraine.  So is Mac really a retired archangel?  Did he rebel, but not quite fall with the rest?  Hopefully we will find out by the end of this book..

He had to trick her, but Harry did the right thing with Murphy, given her condition it is the best place for her to do some good..  Now, will Mac heal her when things get really nasty?  Do you doubt that Mac could?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 15, 2020, 07:07:14 PM
It does explain why Mac doesn’t need to speak, he already knows.
An alternative explanation is that it's dangerous for him to speak. That there are rules preventing him from sharing too much, so he errs on the sided of caution.

So the Placard is a super threshold, which puts Macanally’s on par with the Carpenters supernaturally, which is  powered by multiple Angels.
I kind of got the impression that this one has a different loophole. That loophole is that the threshold doesn't protect Mac.

So, if Harry looked at Mac with his sight, it would blind him or hurt him in some way.  Okay, seeing Shaggy with his sight gave him a severe migraine.  So is Mac really a retired archangel?
The only other time we saw something shutdown Harry's sight for his own benefit was the angel guard to the "police station" in GS.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: ClintACK on September 15, 2020, 07:12:14 PM
I kind of got the impression that this one has a different loophole. That loophole is that the threshold doesn't protect Mac.
Yep. Like it redirects any attack against the people sheltering there into an attack on Mac.

Perhaps some sort of parallel to Jesus on the Cross taking on all of the sins of the world for everyone.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on September 15, 2020, 07:37:07 PM
Yep. Like it redirects any attack against the people sheltering there into an attack on Mac.

Perhaps some sort of parallel to Jesus on the Cross taking on all of the sins of the world for everyone.

That makes sense.  I didn't get why the placard might redirect any attacks against the paraneters to Mac.  I had to reread what Harry said about the sign to be certain.  So this means that Mac is mortal or is made vulnerable by putting up the sign in his place.  So the question is, how much punishment can Mac take?   
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 15, 2020, 08:12:07 PM
I'm not sure if it redirects the attacks to Mac. I just think Mac has to be killed to take down the threshold. I bet the bar is still vulnerable to the usual methods of getting around a threshold, like burning the place down or sending in mortal attackers. I'm not sure what happens if a supernatural threat goes after Mac directly. It's implied that the threshold won't protect him.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: morriswalters on September 15, 2020, 08:24:09 PM
This is theology 101, Jesus died on the cross to save Man. Mac would appear to be a crispy critter.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 15, 2020, 08:45:32 PM
This is theology 101, Jesus died on the cross to save Man. Mac would appear to be a crispy critter.

Yeah, sacrifice, by putting his blood on the Placard, Mac committed to sacrifice himself to save the others in the bar.

Rereading the bit when Mac first eyes it, I got the feeling that Mac was there when Jesus died.  Another thought of who he could be possibly, Pilate.  He may have objected to the role he was forced to play so that Jesus could die for our sins? 

One more thing, the look between Lara and Molly.. What is Molly so pissed about?  What does she know, is it Lara calling in the favors owed by the Winter Court?  Does she know that Lara might be behind what happened to Thomas in the first place? 
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Yuillegan on September 15, 2020, 09:04:17 PM
I think it's clear Mac is
(click to show/hide)
.

Which isn't to say he isn't other beings from myth and legend as well.

I don't think he is
(click to show/hide)
. Mostly because he appears to be active and I think would have elicited a stronger response from Before. And his title isn't Watcher either.

I believe the Placard, at least in my interpretation of the scene, is similar to JK Rowling's literary device of the "Fidellius Charm" and the Secret Keeper function. i.e Mac is the weak point of an otherwise impenetrable threshold. Meaning that for it to hold true, Mac will have to sacrifice himself (Morris is correct). If Mac were to not sacrifice himself, or place himself between the path of whatever was trying to get into his bar, the Placard's power would be neutralized.

I have no idea why Jim wants to sacrifice Mac at this point but clearly he wants to start expanding the scope of his books.


   So, if Harry looked at Mac with his sight, it would blind him or hurt him in some way.  Okay, seeing Shaggy with his sight gave him a severe migraine.  So is Mac really a retired archangel?  Did he rebel, but not quite fall with the rest?  Hopefully we will find out by the end of this book..

He had to trick her, but Harry did the right thing with Murphy, given her condition it is the best place for her to do some good..  Now, will Mac heal her when things get really nasty?  Do you doubt that Mac could?
Not just a sever migraine but it almost destroyed his sanity. He is forever damaged by it. Don't think he is a retired Archangel though, I will get into that.

I don't think Mac can heal Murphy. It would unfortunately abrogate her Free Will, remove the consequences (good and bad) that came with her choices. I think Mac can only heal himself. He is transubstantiated but perhaps not quite to the degree Uriel was. Or perhaps he is but he has gained some power since...or maybe he cheats. Maybe it was Mab who healed him.

An alternative explanation is that it's dangerous for him to speak. That there are rules preventing him from sharing too much, so he errs on the sided of caution.

The only other time we saw something shutdown Harry's sight for his own benefit was the angel guard to the "police station" in GS.
I agree. Mac is either limited or chooses to limit his speech. It amounts mostly to the same. Maybe a bit of both. If he still has access to some intellectus that gives him tremendous power anyway even if he can't just outright warp reality.

Yeah, that was definitely a call back to GS. Jim is really trying to remind readers and be like "hey, have you worked it out?" plus we have years of Mac's food and drink being "divine" or "heavenly" etc.

Not sure what happened between Molly and Lara...could be the violation of the guest right and stealing Thomas back and Molly is angry on behalf of Winter. It felt right because of her formality. In saying that, Lara seemed to catch on immediately so perhaps it is personal.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 15, 2020, 09:08:34 PM
Yeah, that was definitely a call back to GS. Jim is really trying to remind readers and be like "hey, have you worked it out?" plus we have years of Mac's food and drink being "divine" or "heavenly" etc.
Yeah. And "divine intellectus" seemed a bit on the nose to me.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: SpacedCowboy on September 15, 2020, 09:15:05 PM
One more thing, the look between Lara and Molly.. What is Molly so pissed about?  What does she know, is it Lara calling in the favors owed by the Winter Court?  Does she know that Lara might be behind what happened to Thomas in the first place?

Maybe she knows (and doesn't like) whatever the first favour was.

Small detail: We know that Morgan has used his sight in Macs Bar before, sweeping all around, and saw Mac, even if briefly...

“Morgan didn’t let his gaze linger too long near Mac or myself, and then he nodded to himself, and called out, 'Clear.'"

Presumably you'd have to stare at Mac to hurt yourself...
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 15, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
  Okay, in the chapter Harry said that the Outsiders recognized Mac.  I found it in Cold Days, Sharkface called Mac "Watcher." Looking it up, it gets complicated angels and fallen angels, but I found this on Wikipedia and it makes sense that this is who Mac really is.
Quote
Shamsiel, once a guardian of Eden as stated in the Zohar, served as one of the two chief aides to the archangel Uriel (the other aide being Hasdiel) when Uriel bore his standard into battle, and is the head of 365 legions of angels and also crowns prayers, accompanying them to the 5th heaven. In Jubilees, he is referred to as one of the Watchers. He is a fallen angel who teaches the signs of the sun.

What caught my eye is the connection to Uriel.  Also if Mac is a fallen angel, it would explain that would explain a lot about him.

Quote
Maybe she knows (and doesn't like) whatever the first favour was.

Small detail: We know that Morgan has used his sight in Macs Bar before, sweeping all around, and saw Mac, even if briefly...

"“Morgan didn’t let his gaze linger too long near Mac or myself, and then he nodded to himself, and called out, “Clear.”

Presumably you'd have to stare at Mac to hurt yourself...

Or Morgan knew better than to look at either Harry or Mac, he gazed near not at either one of them.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Arjan on September 15, 2020, 09:30:54 PM
Of course Molly does not like Lara. The white court vampires and the woman who can not have sex at all. :D
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: bigdangmoose on September 15, 2020, 09:38:45 PM
Of course Molly does not like Lara. The white court vampires and the woman who can not have sex at all. :D

Perhaps word of the glamour got to Molls
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 15, 2020, 10:01:58 PM
Still tormenting us about Mac, still!

Intellectus (of more than just Demonreach or about the written word) is something we have only seen in the Mothers and Archangels. It does explain why Mac doesn’t need to speak, he already knows.

Exactly how much research has Harry done on the objects, when and how? He suddenly has all this knowledge, when ignorance has been his most enduring feature. So the Placard is a super threshold, which puts Macanally’s on par with the Carpenters supernaturally, which is  powered by multiple Angels. Does this mean the bar can now withstand the eye of Balor? Is it just the bar, if Mac owns the entire building is that covered as well? That means they still have to defend against purely physical force, which is where Murphy comes in I suppose.

It’s original purpose on the crucifiction would have been to protect Christ on the cross from supernatural intervention, but from who? Christ owned the Cross?

Is that as Harry has the Placard this is how he gets the Castle?it can only be used by someone who owns the building it is part of, so to create the perfect supernatural bomb shelter Harry has to own it. Harry becomes Marcone’s Landlord? Will Harry make Marcon shoevel the paths in Winter, even though as Winter Knight he doesn’t need them shovelled?

Would have been wiser for Harry to use it on Demonreach- he can call on the island's defenses personally.

As to owning the Cross- it was a Jewish cross raised on Jewish land; as King yeah, it'd be his property.

Could have been an Outer Gates attack, if Butcher wants to fudge his 2000 year cycle.

As to the objects: Demonreach seems to have diagnostic capabilities, possibly related to its ability to take on and hold prisoners. Could be that the "armory" is another stasis crystal, just one they sit in passively, allowing Demonreach to "read" them as they enter.

EDIT: I figured Molly is still in mad-love with Harry, and so she's jealous of Lara- either from the illusion, or Harry giving her the elevator eyes.

Murphy is in great danger. She's between Lara and vengeance, and Molly and what she wants- if any mortal is allowed a pass with the Winter Lady's mantle, it's her "husband".
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 15, 2020, 10:39:32 PM
Demonreach has protection already equivalent to the Placard, I think it is defence but also a trap. I surmised on another thread what would happen should Harry push Ethnui past the the Carpenters threshold. The word bug zapper was used. We know now what the Placard really says ”Keep Out”.

If Harry were to blow Ethnui into the bar, it would massively weaken and disorientate her, making it much easier to harry her to the shoreline and a binding, or for a lesser power to be vanquished. Could it be so powerful Mac’s Bar is a place where you can now kill immortals? Could he kill her there especially with the Athame? Is this why Mac is so nervous about it?

I think that if you kill the person in the circuit you also kill the protection it affords. Murphy has her hands full keeping Mac alive.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Snark Knight on September 16, 2020, 12:00:57 AM
Is that as Harry has the Placard this is how he gets the Castle?it can only be used by someone who owns the building it is part of, so to create the perfect supernatural bomb shelter Harry has to own it.

And Mouse gains power from the threshold he protects. How bat-cacky insanely OP would he become guarding THAT?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 12:16:06 AM
Because of course Harry would live there with Maggie if it became as safe as the Carpenters or Demonreach from supernatural attack.

Yes I had that thought about Mouse, guarding that threshold a Ferrovax wouldn’t want to take on Mouse.

I wonder if the second loophole is that the person in the circuit for the Placard has to stay on the premises?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 12:24:38 AM
So, I think this makes it clear that Mac is (or was) one of the angelic watchers talked about in the Book of Enoch. Retired? Fallen? Did he have a Nephilim child? More to be told, I’m sure.

I wonder how Dresden figured out the power of the placard. Seems pretty specific. And interesting. And small scale thinking if he gave it to Mac. He could have given it to Marcone and hustled many more people into the BFS castle.
Marcone coulda put it up on chicago itself as it's Baron, he owns alot of it to begin with even if he doesn't technically control it... It'd be a bit of symantecs, but he's recognized as Chicago's leader in the accords so idk..
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: TheCuriousFan on September 16, 2020, 12:44:48 AM
Marcone coulda put it up on chicago itself as it's Baron, he owns alot of it to begin with even if he doesn't technically control it... It'd be a bit of symantecs, but he's recognized as Chicago's leader in the accords so idk..
He's not recognised as the owner by the legal government so it wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on September 16, 2020, 12:59:40 AM
Before she became the Winter Lady, Molly went on a mission save Thomas because Lara put him in a dangerous situation.  (She couldn't have known that Thomas got himself out of trouble.)  Molly knows Lara has used Thomas in risky ways before and wonders if she has done so again.  Plus, I totally buy into the idea that she still has the hots for Harry and knows that Lara will eventually try use her vampire skills to control Harry.  Finally, there's the sex vampire queen vs. the enforced virgin queen angle.  Molly has a lot of reasons to trust or not like Lara Raith.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 01:48:00 AM
He's not recognised as the owner by the legal government so it wouldn't work.
then you'd think he wouldn't be recognized by the accords as such, as they regard mortal hierchy. Hence gruff respecting Murphy's position as peace keeper.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: vultur on September 16, 2020, 04:47:57 AM
The only other time we saw something shutdown Harry's sight for his own benefit was the angel guard to the "police station" in GS.

Yeah, this plus the call-back to him being called "Watcher" in CD plus his familiarity with the Placard... really strongly suggests that he is in fact one of the Grigorim/Watchers.

then you'd think he wouldn't be recognized by the accords as such, as they regard mortal hierchy. Hence gruff respecting Murphy's position as peace keeper.

I think that was more respecting Murphy's courage than anything legal. The Gruffs have a strong sense of honor, at least the older ones.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 07:08:56 AM
Mac has doubtless been several things in his existence and may yet due to Harry’s actions be yet another, we still don’t know enough, and clearly it is going to come to a head later in the book when the Placard is put to the test.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Helga Ozark on September 16, 2020, 08:49:06 AM
Regarding Molly:
What we know so far from PT
Lara has had a big bite to eat
Carlos has been injured again messing with "the wrong monster" in the line of duty "as it turned out".
and now from BG: Molly is really pissed at Lara
My working hypothesis is that Lara fed on Carlos and now Molly is pissed.

The lose end still hanging in my hypothesis is how is it in the line of duty??
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 09:09:12 AM
Everyone at the PTs thinks lara took harry in the back and had her way with him remember? Nobody outside of the rescue team knows that was an illusion. Molly is jelly AF
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Helga Ozark on September 16, 2020, 09:35:53 AM
Everyone at the PTs thinks lara took harry in the back and had her way with him remember? Nobody outside of the rescue team knows that was an illusion. Molly is jelly AF

DOH! forgot about that. Though I wonder whether Molly would be able to see through that glamour.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 09:39:04 AM
DOH! forgot about that. Though I wonder whether Molly would be able to see through that glamour.
maybe if she'd seen it first hand and not heard of it happening?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Helga Ozark on September 16, 2020, 10:37:29 AM
maybe if she'd seen it first hand and not heard of it happening?

Except that in PT she knows about the jail break (I had to go back and find the passage to be sure).
         She closed her eyes and thought for a moment about what I had told her. "Oh God, you're going to go get Thomas, aren't you?"

From there it's not a big stretch for Molly to deduce that the Harry/Lara sex glamour was a diversion.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 11:31:01 AM
Except that in PT she knows about the jail break (I had to go back and find the passage to be sure).
         She closed her eyes and thought for a moment about what I had told her. "Oh God, you're going to go get Thomas, aren't you?"

From there it's not a big stretch for Molly to deduce that the Harry/Lara sex glamour was a diversion.
and it's not a big stretch to think if she didn't, being distracted with business of her own, she'd be jealous, which she was..
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Arjan on September 16, 2020, 12:15:27 PM
Even if she knew it was an illusion. The idea might be enough to get angry.

Molly is not that jealous otherwise her interactions with Murphy would have been far more explosive. She might be a bit protective.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: bigdangmoose on September 16, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
Even if she knew it was an illusion. The idea might be enough to get angry.

Molly is not that jealous otherwise her interactions with Murphy would have been far more explosive. She might be a bit protective.

We haven't seen WL Molls interact with Murph yet. Before the mantle, in the short Bombshells, she commented that she could be patient. That even though she wasn't romantically linked to Harry, she got to spend time with him on a almost daily basis.

Now, as the WL, she has spent a whole day accumulative with Harry. She is immortal, who can't have sex, fighting to stay who she is, watching the man she loves riding on a boat with the only other nigh immortal who is a threat to her wishful love life. They both will out live Murph, so she isn't a long term threat. So it's possible that Molls gave her the evil look because of what she represents.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: BrainFireBob on September 16, 2020, 02:44:25 PM
Regarding Molly:
What we know so far from PT
Lara has had a big bite to eat
Carlos has been injured again messing with "the wrong monster" in the line of duty "as it turned out".
and now from BG: Molly is really pissed at Lara
My working hypothesis is that Lara fed on Carlos and now Molly is pissed.

The lose end still hanging in my hypothesis is how is it in the line of duty??

It wasn't again. This is still from Molly beating him senseless.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 16, 2020, 03:05:40 PM
It wasn't again. This is still from Molly beating him senseless.
for some reason that line made me laugh thinking about teen age Molly beating someone senseless bare handed lol. I know, winter lady, but the original grasshopper image came up.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 04:33:04 PM
If it had been Maeve she would have frozen his family jewels and then crushed them like Christmas baubles.

Carlos got off lucky.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: morriswalters on September 16, 2020, 05:13:56 PM
Does anyone remember the Whites using Wild Fae as party lights as a test to see if Mab would do anything about it?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 16, 2020, 05:29:59 PM


  At some point given her reaction to Harry when he said he was leaving her behind, I see Murphy leaving Mac's place to do battle or try to.  If Mac is what we think he is, he may have the power to heal her.  The question then becomes, will he?  On one hand if he is a watcher it would be against the rules, free will and all of that.  However if he is one of the lustful ones and fell, maybe not so much.  We know as early as Storm Front he has aided Harry, i.e. giving him the keys to his Trans Am, so he might help Murphy.  Then again when he added his blood to the Placard, he was making another statement and feel that he cannot heal her as much as he'd like to. 

But if Murphy gets killed this will be how, I can see Harry returning to Mac's place after the battle only to find out Murphy isn't there, then finding her body in the blood and rubble.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 06:15:52 PM
If the RPG scene is correct, Murphy was probably killing a giant.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 16, 2020, 07:02:29 PM
If the RPG scene is correct, Murphy was probably killing a giant.

Perhaps, but if she cannot move any better than she currently can, she still could get killed in the next frame. 
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Arjan on September 16, 2020, 07:11:42 PM
Does anyone remember the Whites using Wild Fae as party lights as a test to see if Mab would do anything about it?
At that time the white court was still at least nominally a red court ally and Winter was more or less helping the white council.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 08:02:28 PM
And yet Lara was granted three favours. What if the last is to heal Murphy, so Harry is strengthened to take down Ethnui?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 16, 2020, 10:54:04 PM
And yet Lara was granted three favours. What if the last is to heal Murphy, so Harry is strengthened to take down Ethnui?
Except I imagine that Lara is saving that favor up for later... Like release Thomas.. 
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 16, 2020, 11:48:15 PM
Ah, but for Harry to release Thomas, he has to survive. Mab can’t release Thomas, she is very, very wary of Demonreach, more than she is of Ethnui. She asks Mab outright to release Thomas, Mab will tell her she can’t, not sure though Mab can heal Karen, Lea healed Harry in Grave Peril instantly, but Mab didn’t heal Harry from the bullet wound, he had to heal and recovery naturally, but maybe Bonny prevented that, or Demonreach did, or Mab’s own nature.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on September 17, 2020, 12:00:32 AM
And yet Lara was granted three favours. What if the last is to heal Murphy, so Harry is strengthened to take down Ethnui?

Mab has shown that she can repay a favor and screw over the recipient of that payment at the same time, and though that's not what you are talking about I think it's something to keep in mind.

I don't see Lara using the favor owed her by Mab to help Murphy unless she can use it to get something from Harry.  Something like, "I can fix the damage to Ms. Murphy, Sir Knight, but you will owe me a favor in return."

Harry owes a favor to Vadderung or perhaps he was in his Kringle identity.  Offhand I don't remember, but a favor is owed.
Harry owes a favor to Molly.
Harry owes a favor to Mab.  (Harry forgot to include the final favor he owed to Mab in the deal he made to become the Winter Knight.)
Harry still owes Bob a new backup vessel / skull, to hide in, seeing as Bonea took over the one Harry made on Demonreach.

Am I missing anybody?  I like the idea of Harry owing a favor to Lara, but I don't see the scenario of Lara healing Murphy to acquire that favor as something that is likely to occur.

Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 17, 2020, 12:10:07 AM
Lara owes a favor to Murphy from BR.
Harry owes a favor to Vadderung, not Kringle.
Harry gave the vessel to Bob. What Bob/Butters did with it doesn't effect the deal.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: morriswalters on September 17, 2020, 12:29:34 AM
At that time the white court was still at least nominally a red court ally and Winter was more or less helping the white council.
I know.  But look at what happened to the Reds.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Snark Knight on September 17, 2020, 12:30:39 AM
Even if she knew it was an illusion. The idea might be enough to get angry.

Molly is not that jealous otherwise her interactions with Murphy would have been far more explosive. She might be a bit protective.


Even if she knows it was an illusion, the fact that everyone else who didn't now thinks that Lara has Winter's consort and champion wrapped around her little finger ... quite aside from any lingering personal feelings for Harry, Molly is also going to be pissed that Lara  has everyone who's anyone in the community thinking she put one over on her and Mab.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2020, 02:06:42 AM
Ah, but for Harry to release Thomas, he has to survive. Mab can’t release Thomas, she is very, very wary of Demonreach, more than she is of Ethnui. She asks Mab outright to release Thomas, Mab will tell her she can’t, not sure though Mab can heal Karen, Lea healed Harry in Grave Peril instantly, but Mab didn’t heal Harry from the bullet wound, he had to heal and recovery naturally, but maybe Bonny prevented that, or Demonreach did, or Mab’s own nature.

No, but if Lara did demand it as a favor it would put both Mab and Harry between a rock and a hard place.  Depending on the politics and guilt of Thomas, releasing Thomas may blow the Accords apart.
Also if Thomas was guilty, would Alfred obey Harry? 
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Lara owes a favor to Murphy from BR.
She may, but she doesn't live under the same rules as the Winter Court Fae, so she may not feel obligated to help Murphy.  She does however want her brother to go free, so if she is going to spend that last favor on anyone it will be on Thomas, not Murphy.
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I don't see Lara using the favor owed her by Mab to help Murphy unless she can use it to get something from Harry.  Something like, "I can fix the damage to Ms. Murphy, Sir Knight, but you will owe me a favor in return."

Except Harry is in no position to bargain.  If Lara wants to call in her last favor from the Winter Court all she has to do is ask for it.
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Harry owes a favor to Vadderung or perhaps he was in his Kringle identity.  Offhand I don't remember, but a favor is owed.
But that has nothing to do with the favor the Winter Court owes Lara.  Nor am I sure Kringle operates under the same laws that govern the Fae Courts as far as favors owed.
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Harry owes a favor to Molly.
That he does as governed by Winter Court Fae rules.. 
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Harry still owes Bob a new backup vessel / skull, to hide in, seeing as Bonea took over the one Harry made on Demonreach.

Perhaps, but if I remember correctly the wooden skull that Bonea now uses is pretty crude by Harry's own description.  I bet with a little guidance from Bob, Butters could come up with a much nicer one.
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Am I missing anybody?  I like the idea of Harry owing a favor to Lara, but I don't see the scenario of Lara healing Murphy to acquire that favor as something that is likely to occur.

I don't either,  Lara only need ask and Harry is duty bound under Mab's orders to comply.  As I said, not likely she'd put Murphy ahead of Thomas..  Harry loves both, but that makes no difference either, he has to obey whatever Lara requests.. Just as he was worried in chapter three of Battleground that Lara would demand that he go with her as payment for the favor.  Molly helped him slide out of that.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: vultur on September 17, 2020, 06:56:22 AM
No, but if Lara did demand it as a favor it would put both Mab and Harry between a rock and a hard place.  Depending on the politics and guilt of Thomas, releasing Thomas may blow the Accords apart.

I don't think the Svartalves are that important of a nation, really. Rescuing Thomas during the talks was a potential disaster because if it had become known, Mab's representative was breaking the rules at a major diplomatic meeting for Mab's Accords.

Now that that's a "fait accompli" I think the political picture is different.

The larger problem is that if Thomas was just released from Demonreach now, he'd die. There needs to be a solution for the whole "Hunger eating him" aspect first.

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Also if Thomas was guilty, would Alfred obey Harry? 

Yes. As Alfred says, "YOU ARE THE WARDEN". Harry could release all kinds of things.

That's why it's such a big deal among those few people who know about it... the Warden of Demonreach could basically cause a PT/BG level disaster any time he felt like it by releasing some horrible monster or ancient titan.

Which is one reason I think the 'kicking Harry out of the Council' bit is a ploy. We know he'd never do it, at least short of a Changes-level situation, but the people on the Senior Council who still think Harry is a potential ticking time bomb... given the binding power of oaths, he could just extract an oath from some titan to kill all his enemies on the Council and then release it.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 17, 2020, 11:28:33 AM
Lara owes a favor to Murphy from BR.
Harry owes a favor to Vadderung, not Kringle.
Harry gave the vessel to Bob. What Bob/Butters did with it doesn't effect the deal.

Forgot about the BR favour, that plays nicely into the scenario.

Bob can still use the back up with Bonea in residence

Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2020, 11:50:24 AM
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I don't think the Svartalves are that important of a nation, really. Rescuing Thomas during the talks was a potential disaster because if it had become known, Mab's representative was breaking the rules at a major diplomatic meeting for Mab's Accords.

Now that that's a "fait accompli" I think the political picture is different.

The larger problem is that if Thomas was just released from Demonreach now, he'd die. There needs to be a solution for the whole "Hunger eating him" aspect first.

I think that depends on what they contribute to the fight against the Titan.  Also I've begun to reread Peace Talks as a lead up to Battleground.  On the reread, it is obvious on the run in the first chapter that Thomas was up to something, that it wasn't just nervousness and anxiety over Justine's pregnancy.   Who put up to it and why will be big factors I think.  Another thought as I read given
that they used birth control that failed and White Court Vamps are for all intents and purposes sterile as Thomas put it, was there another father?  If it was a set up and Justine is a part of it, it could be.
Does he know for sure there is an embryo Hunger inside her, or is he just assuming it?
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Which is one reason I think the 'kicking Harry out of the Council' bit is a ploy. We know he'd never do it, at least short of a Changes-level situation, but the people on the Senior Council who still think Harry is a potential ticking time bomb... given the binding power of oaths, he could just extract an oath from some titan to kill all his enemies on the Council and then release it.

Except on the reread, from what Eb said, not everyone on the Senior Council even know he is the Warden of Demonreach.  What is interesting is if Christos is Black Council as Harry and Eb both seem to think, why is he going to the Peace Talks instead of being there for the vote?  And Eb is talking about Harry going off to glad hand and politic for his position, when Harry says he can't because he is on the security team, Eb didn't seem to know about it.  Now supposedly he is the head man for the security team, yet it is Carlos who claims to be who wants Harry on the team.. So is it yet another sign of dementia in Eb that he has forgotten that fact? Or is Carlos about to be the one close who stabs Harry in the back?  Another thought, the bearded guy Harry blows away in the trailer, Christos? 
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Arjan on September 17, 2020, 02:27:22 PM
Harry:
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Come on. I'm a wizard. We have union rules against telling anybody anything

Rashid:
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If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council, which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to—and that isn’t much

Don't assume someone on the council knows something because another council member knows. With important information the opposite is more likely.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: ClintACK on September 17, 2020, 03:18:31 PM
Don't assume someone on the council knows something because another council member knows. With important information the opposite is more likely.

Yep. One of the things I've been anticipating in Battle Ground for years is the possibility of seeing Harry's opponents in the White Council realize just how badly they've underestimated him, when they watch him go all out against the fomor bigs, or even bind Ethniu into a cell.

Like a bigger version of the moment when Ancient Mai had to radically rethink everything about Harry when she realized he was partnered with a foo dog.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 17, 2020, 03:33:40 PM
I think it's ironic they're targeting him for being Mabs knight when we know they're all sitting on power ups of some sort themselves. Like if those were public I'm not sure most of the senior council would have a leg left to stand on in that argument.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 17, 2020, 04:14:08 PM
I think it's ironic they're targeting him for being Mabs knight when we know they're all sitting on power ups of some sort themselves. Like if those were public I'm not sure most of the senior council would have a leg left to stand on in that argument.

Certainly not Martha Liberty, we find out she is great pals with the Loa, which suggest she is also a Voodoo Priestess (which looking on Wikipedia goes back to the White God as creator) Harry though has a much closer relationship via Uriel. She may therefore also be a candidate to wield soul-fire as basically a female Father Forthill who is also a wizard, and may have access to clerical magic.

We know Eb has the Black Staff, we don’t know what else he may have tucked away.

Recent WOJ indicates that Listens to the Wind shapeshifting isn’t learnt, and his power up may be something like the Tarnhelm

The thing is Senior Council can take centuries to achieve the power ups Harry achieved in a decade and a bit, and I suspect Christos hasn’t yet had the time to pick anything up (although he may have been promised much)

Harry has:-

(1) Soul fire
(2) the Winter Knight Mantle
(3) the Placard
(4) the Athame
(5) the shroud
(6) the crown
(7) Warden of Demonreach
(8) Bonea

Not even Eb knows of (1), (3) - (6) and (8)
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: kel0700 on September 17, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
In battle ground Harry is worried that lara will use her last favour to stop him warning the paranet about the titan but in peace talks mab said that she's already agreed to take care of one of the favours and she's assigning Harry to take care of the other two and Harry took care of them in peace talks, so is it a mistake or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on September 17, 2020, 06:29:23 PM
What is interesting is if Christos is Black Council as Harry and Eb both seem to think, why is he going to the Peace Talks instead of being there for the vote? 

It's starting to look to me that Cristos is a dupe rather than a player.  Harry sees it; even if he doesn't consciously think it, when he suggests to Lara that she use Cristos to broker a deal with Etri.  What you've added about Cristos not hanging around at Council HQ to influence the vote against Harry adds to the evidence that Cristos isn't Black Council, but even so, Cristos is someone who might be easily manipulated by a Black Council agent.

And Eb is talking about Harry going off to glad hand and politic for his position, when Harry says he can't because he is on the security team, Eb didn't seem to know about it.  Now supposedly he is the head man for the security team, yet it is Carlos who claims to be who wants Harry on the team.. So is it yet another sign of dementia in Eb that he has forgotten that fact? Or is Carlos about to be the one close who stabs Harry in the back?  Another thought, the bearded guy Harry blows away in the trailer, Christos?

And yet, according to Carlos it was Ebenezer who sent him to notify Harry about the Peace Talks and that they would take place in Chicago.  Eb knew that Carlos had the authority to pick whoever he wanted as part of the security team.  He knew that Harry and Carlos had worked closely together in the past, and they had done so on multiple occasions.  How could Eb not foresee that Warden Ramirez might want Harry to join the security team, unless as you say, Ebenezer is starting to lose his mental acuity. 

The person Harry wastes in the trailer has noticeable facial hair.  The people we know who fit that description are Warden Ramirez, Warden Chandler and Detective Rudolph.  The description of Senior Council member Cristos doesn't mention any facial hair. The person Harry blasts with the spell has a full beard and mustache which meets the beard.  Warden Ramirez (in the trailer) has a goatee but his mustache doesn't reach his beard.  Warden Ramirez' clothing doesn't match that of the person Harry is blasting.  The clothing that Harry's target is wearing could be something suitable for either Warden Chandler or Detective Rudolph.  Harry's target/victim is carrying a handgun.  This is suitable for both Rudolph and Chandler.  (Chandler's magical ability has to do with the manipulation of time.)  Both Warden Chandler and Detective Rudolph are described as having mustaches, but not beards.  However, while the mismatch between Warden Ramirez' facial hair and that of the person Harry ices can't be easily explained away; because they both occur in the trailer, the difference between the book description and what we see in the trailer could be a simple misdirection so we don't think it could be either Chandler or Rudolph.

It was Conspiracy Theorist who suggested Detective Rudolph.  Initially I didn't like that idea very much, but if Rudolph shot Murphy, then I could see Harry going off on him.  I still favor Warden Chandler, but the handgun is more appropriate for Detective Rudolph, so I can't discount him either. 
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2020, 07:01:01 PM
Harry:
Rashid:
Don't assume someone on the council knows something because another council member knows. With important information the opposite is more likely.

Yup, I bet that only Eb and Rashid even know that Harry is Warden of Demonreach.
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And yet, according to Carlos it was Ebenezer who sent him to notify Harry about the Peace Talks and that they would take place in Chicago.  Eb knew that Carlos had the authority to pick whoever he wanted as part of the security team.  He knew that Harry and Carlos had worked closely together in the past, and they had done so on multiple occasions.  How could Eb not foresee that Warden Ramirez might want Harry to join the security team, unless as you say, Ebenezer is starting to lose his mental acuity. 
Exactly, it doesn't make any sense, also since Carlos had already talked to Harry, you'd think he'd have informed him by that point.  However loss of short term memory is a symptom of demensia.
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It was Conspiracy Theorist who suggested Detective Rudolph.  Initially I didn't like that idea very much, but if Rudolph shot Murphy, then I could see Harry going off on him.  I still favor Warden Chandler, but the handgun is more appropriate for Detective Rudolph, so I can't discount him either. 

I didn't even think of Rudolph killing Murphy, but if he did, yeah, I can see Harry blasting him to atoms..
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 17, 2020, 07:31:30 PM
Yea I dont think it matters who, someone kills Murphy someone's gonna be have a real bad existence until suddenly they don't anymore lol
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Snark Knight on September 17, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
Yea I dont think it matters who, someone kills Murphy someone's gonna be have a real bad existence until suddenly they don't anymore lol

Harry does know necromancy, and he might be just angry enough not to care about using it. A bad afterlife isn't out of the question.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Avernite on September 17, 2020, 08:06:26 PM
In battle ground Harry is worried that lara will use her last favour to stop him warning the paranet about the titan but in peace talks mab said that she's already agreed to take care of one of the favours and she's assigning Harry to take care of the other two and Harry took care of them in peace talks, so is it a mistake or am I missing something?
Good point. Maybe the introduction didn't count as a true favour, more as a 'you wouldn't deny someone who Winter owes a favour such a nothingness?'

Or it's counted as part of the favour 'save Thomas'.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: The_Sibelis on September 17, 2020, 08:08:01 PM
Harry does know necromancy, and he might be just angry enough not to care about using it. A bad afterlife isn't out of the question.
lol, that was my point. They won't have any sort of existence once he smears them across the pavement.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: morriswalters on September 17, 2020, 08:33:02 PM
It will be interesting if Eb has dementia.  It kind of breaks canon since Wizards are super healers.  And I don't think Harry is going to break the first Law, not as long as 44 Magnums exist. And if he did, wouldn't a Rudolph sickle be more appropriate.  Maybe a lawn ornament in Mab's garden.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 17, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
It will be interesting if Eb has dementia.  It kind of breaks canon since Wizards are super healers.  And I don't think Harry is going to break the first Law, not as long as 44 Magnums exist. And if he did, wouldn't a Rudolph sickle be more appropriate.  Maybe a lawn ornament in Mab's garden.

Supposedly wizards are quick healers, but dementia is a disease of the brain.  Even Harry, young and healthy, didn't Uriel say it would take at least fifty years for his spinal cord to mend?  Who knows dementia may even accelerate in wizards because of the nature of their hard wiring.   
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: ClintACK on September 17, 2020, 09:07:33 PM
Good point. Maybe the introduction didn't count as a true favour, more as a 'you wouldn't deny someone who Winter owes a favour such a nothingness?'

That was my take.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 17, 2020, 09:09:42 PM
It will be interesting if Eb has dementia.  It kind of breaks canon since Wizards are super healers.  And I don't think Harry is going to break the first Law, not as long as 44 Magnums exist. And if he did, wouldn't a Rudolph sickle be more appropriate.  Maybe a lawn ornament in Mab's garden.

My favourite Rudolph punishment, turn him over to Kringle when he is running the Wild Hunt, and let him be transformed into a real brown nosed reindeer.

Wizards are complete healers, over time , but old age will still kill them if the damage outruns the ability to heal from it.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on September 17, 2020, 09:10:25 PM
Being introduced to Christos is no favour.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Bad Alias on September 17, 2020, 09:29:36 PM
Except on the reread, from what Eb said, not everyone on the Senior Council even know he is the Warden of Demonreach. 
Where was that? I missed it.

What is interesting is if Christos is Black Council as Harry and Eb both seem to think, why is he going to the Peace Talks instead of being there for the vote?
Because one vote isn't likely to matter as it's a vote of the entire Council and not the Senior Council? Pre PT there is enough support to throw Harry out? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Certainly not Martha Liberty, we find out she is great pals with the Loa, which suggest she is also a Voodoo Priestess (which looking on Wikipedia goes back to the White God as creator) Harry though has a much closer relationship via Uriel.
Didn't Jim say one of the Senior Council members was a "saint;" saint being a term for a practitioner (maybe wizard, I don't remember) who had faith magic as well? If I remember that correctly, then Martha Liberty sounds like a good candidate. Before I figured it was more likely to be Listens to Wind.

Harry has:-

(1) Soul fire
(2) the Winter Knight Mantle
(3) the Placard
(4) the Athame
(5) the shroud
(6) the crown
(7) Warden of Demonreach
(8) Bonea

Not even Eb knows of (1), (3) - (6) and (8)
Also 5, right? He could know about the Soul fire. I'm not saying he does. He probably doesn't. Eb has severely underestimated Harry. Harry has been deflecting instead of stopping attacks for a long time now.

In battle ground Harry is worried that lara will use her last favour to stop him warning the paranet about the titan but in peace talks mab said that she's already agreed to take care of one of the favours and she's assigning Harry to take care of the other two and Harry took care of them in peace talks, so is it a mistake or am I missing something?
That's what I thought too.

Yup, I bet that only Eb and Rashid even know that Harry is Warden of Demonreach.
I'm pretty sure everyone who was on the Senior Council at the point of Morgan's trial knows based on Eb's journal entry. LtW definitely knows Harry claimed Demonreach as his Sanctum. I'm fairly sure Ancient Mai knows as well.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Arjan on September 17, 2020, 09:47:53 PM
Where was that? I missed it.
Because one vote isn't likely to matter as it's a vote of the entire Council and not the Senior Council? Pre PT there is enough support to throw Harry out? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Didn't Jim say one of the Senior Council members was a "saint;" saint being a term for a practitioner (maybe wizard, I don't remember) who had faith magic as well? If I remember that correctly, then Martha Liberty sounds like a good candidate. Before I figured it was more likely to be Listens to Wind.
Also 5, right? He could know about the Soul fire. I'm not saying he does. He probably doesn't. Eb has severely underestimated Harry. Harry has been deflecting instead of stopping attacks for a long time now.
That's what I thought too.
I'm pretty sure everyone who was on the Senior Council at the point of Morgan's trial knows based on Eb's journal entry. LtW definitely knows Harry claimed Demonreach as his Sanctum. I'm fairly sure Ancient Mai knows as well.
They don’t tell each other. Listen to wind knows Harry claimed the island but he might not know the function of the island. The Merlin probably does not know the details and the rest of the council, except for the black staf and the gatekeeper, know even less.

Ancient Mai only knows the island has bad feng shui.
Title: Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
Post by: Mira on September 18, 2020, 12:19:05 AM
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Re: Now THAT's what I call a Sample Chapter!
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 09:29:36 PM »

    Quote

Quote from: Mira on Yesterday at 11:50:24 AM

    Except on the reread, from what Eb said, not everyone on the Senior Council even know he is the Warden of Demonreach.

Where was that? I missed it.

Strongly implied page 27 Peace Talks

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"If it gets bad, I can always fall back to Demonreach."
"God, if they knew the whole truth about that place," Ebenezar muttered.

If the members of the Senior Council don't know the truth about the island, then Harry's job as
Warden of it is meaningless to them.  In short, they are ignorant, so far from Eb's journal back in Turn Coat the only two wizards who seem to know what the island is and what is means to be the Warden of it are Rashid and Eb.