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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on August 22, 2020, 05:57:10 PM

Title: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: ClintACK on August 22, 2020, 05:57:10 PM
Question: Who are Bob's Parents?
Jim Butcher: "Wow, really? I thought it was obvious. -- Both of Bob's parents have appeared in the Dresden Files. :)"

Okay...  Presumably one has to be (or have been) a mortal human at the time, and one has to be something more supernatural. And there has to have been a soul/mental melding and an act of loving self-sacrifice. Plus both have to still be around, to have been on screen. And they have to be old enough to pre-date Kemmler.

Possible clues:


Possibilities -- Lea, Mab, Odin, the Senior Council, Cowl, Corpsetaker...? An earlier version of the Archive?

*shrug* I haven't got a good guess at the moment.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Snark Knight on August 22, 2020, 06:14:29 PM
Only some of the senior Council. If Bob is really ~1000 years old, Rashid and maybe Ancient Mai are the only compelling candidates. Most of the rest would have been born in the late 1600's / early 1700's.

I'm not sure if the wording means someone who has appeared live on page, though, or the original Merlin might qualify.
(click to show/hide)

Heck, if Jim had to lie about OG Merlin being the unnamed British prisoner to preserve a major plot point, he would have appeared on page anyway.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Mira on August 22, 2020, 06:28:40 PM

The Erking and Mab would make good parents for Bob, back in the day maybe before she became Lady.  If he has "mommy issues" that might explain why he is afraid of her.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: BrainFireBob on August 22, 2020, 07:05:05 PM
One of the Valkyries
Odin
Eldest Gruff
Rashid
Titania
The Naga?
A loa?
Cowl?
Mavra
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: tacorrific on August 22, 2020, 07:19:24 PM
"appeared in the Dresden Files" could also apply to passing references made throughout the books.  Jim has a tendency to stretch his words.  So that would widen the possibilities considerably. 

Does someone have to die or make a huge sacrifice in order to create a spirit of intellect?
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: tacorrific on August 22, 2020, 07:31:29 PM
Bob is around a thousand years old right?  That would seem to align with the time Mab and Titania accended to become Queens, right?  Could one of the former Queens of Summer or Winter have created Bob when they died and passed on?  The Queen's mantle is still in the story even if the specific character is not.  In Cold Days Mab seemed to have some affection for her former knight Tam Lin.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 22, 2020, 07:58:57 PM
I had long pegged Lea as his mother (see multiple posts) his reaction to her AND she is a muse whose love drives men mad and to their death, sounds like someone dying from a spirit of intellect.

I think the English Prisoner could be dad, hiding out from Lea and Bob in the one place Lea can’t go.

On this basis this could be a previous Winter Knight like Tam Lin who escaped the Mantle. He was associated with the Winter Court before even Mab, and I think Lea is actually much older than Mab. The escape from the Mantle would certainly have enraged the Winter Queen, and may have precipitated events leading to her demise.  Mab wouldn’t have been Queen at this point, the English Prisoner might not be aware there has been a change in Winter Queen, and that it is actually safe for him to come out of hiding.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: morriswalters on August 22, 2020, 09:23:32 PM
Etienne the Enchanter bound Bob to the skull, and the WOJ on the enchanter puts him in the Inquisition which began in 12 century France.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 22, 2020, 09:53:37 PM
Which would be when he would have fled from Mab, unless he was new born Bob could be considerably older.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: BrainFireBob on August 23, 2020, 02:07:28 AM
Sidenote: Bob's a thousand years old, but Etienne put him in the skull around 800 years ago. Lot of readers connect the two, but there's no reason to- Bob could have been wandering around "free" for a long time before Etienne made him the skull- which has all the earmarks of a bargain; he has to be released from it but he's always safe from the Sun.

Main point: Wrong thread, moved!

Personally, I vote for one of the Queens. Bob's parent has to not mind that he's running around, or not care.


Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Dina on August 23, 2020, 05:33:29 AM
Mab + Merlin
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: TheCuriousFan on August 23, 2020, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on August 22, 2020, 07:58:57 PM
I had long pegged Lea as his mother (see multiple posts) his reaction to her AND she is a muse whose love drives men mad and to their death, sounds like someone dying from a spirit of intellect.

I think the English Prisoner could be dad, hiding out from Lea and Bob in the one place Lea can’t go.

On this basis this could be a previous Winter Knight like Tam Lin who escaped the Mantle. He was associated with the Winter Court before even Mab, and I think Lea is actually much older than Mab. The escape from the Mantle would certainly have enraged the Winter Queen, and may have precipitated events leading to her demise.  Mab wouldn’t have been Queen at this point, the English Prisoner might not be aware there has been a change in Winter Queen, and that it is actually safe for him to come out of hiding.
Also she's got love from somebody judging by Grave Peril.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Con on August 23, 2020, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: TheCuriousFan on August 23, 2020, 09:41:58 AM
Also she's got love from somebody judging by Grave Peril.

I thought that was just a side effect of getting all of Susans memories of Harry. Susan loved Harry therefore protection
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 23, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: Con on August 23, 2020, 12:02:36 PM
I thought that was just a side effect of getting all of Susans memories of Harry. Susan loved Harry therefore protection
ditto. It was the whole point of taking her memories I believe
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Regenbogen on August 23, 2020, 08:36:20 PM
Oh, another thread.
OK, my guess again:

Merlin & Demonreach

Explanation see other thread ;)
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 23, 2020, 09:23:54 PM
Not Merlin see other thread.

We have seen both Bob’s parents in series. Bob is 1,000 years old and is the product of the union of a mortal and an immortal. Bob has a massive fascination with sex. Bob in Grave Peril was massively excited to see Lea despite being terrified of Winter and Mab in particular, and in a way he hasn’t been about anyone else (except  porn stars/directors).These are the known facts

Random guesses which do not meet the known facts are pointless, you might as well guess Larry Fowler and the Redcap, which would not produce a spirit of intellect (but might produce a TV Executive, the complete opposite, the horror!).

If anyone finds evidence which helps then put it forward. For example his parents are not an Angel or Fallen as he lacks knowledge in relation to the Swords. Same with Demonreach, as he doesn’t know about the island. If we have examples of Bob being knowledgeable, or lacking knowledge then we can remove certain characters from consideration.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: ClintACK on August 24, 2020, 02:14:56 AM
We know one of the parents probably has to be possessing the other. But if we rule out fallen shadows (because he's not on a faith wavelength) -- what else have we seen possessing people? Ghosts.

But I'm not sure that helps any. Have we seen any ghosts that are old enough?
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 02:27:05 AM
They're are kinda different layers to possession, I'd argue a mantle is a possession with extra coding in the program, what the fallen do, ect.
The thing that throws me for a loop atm,vis one parent died to make Bonnie but we've seen Bob's parents, plural... So how did that happen? The old fashioned way?
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Snark Knight on August 24, 2020, 02:51:06 AM
Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 02:27:05 AM
The thing that throws me for a loop atm,vis one parent died to make Bonnie but we've seen Bob's parents, plural... So how did that happen? The old fashioned way?

Lash sacrificing herself was a selfless act of love, but it seems that's not the only way to conceive a spiritual being.

Theoretically, if someone was pulled into the NN in astral form, like when Harry summoned Mab to negotiate for the Knighthood and got pulled to the stone table instead ... if they got it on with a Sidhe who they were in true love with, but didn't use their physical body, could that birth a SOI instead of a changeling?
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 03:23:21 AM
Pretty sure what harry and mab did remade the WK mantle specifically for harry. It's why it mirrors him. Using the table basically unmade the mantle but gave winter back its power. So yea..
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: ClintACK on August 24, 2020, 04:00:55 AM

Crazy idea: Mavra and the Archive. Mavra was the Archive's host, a long time ago. Crazy circumstances surrounding her death led to a piece of the Archive's knowledge imprinting on a bit of her soul and splintering off like a ghost -- voila: Bob! (Mavra was left as a black court Vampire and with her death the Archive moved on to its next host.)

Another crazy idea: Mac and Ethniu. (If Mac is McKinneally (sp?) then he was Ethniu's husband, at least long enough to father the child that would grow up to kill Balor...)
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Dina on August 24, 2020, 04:14:27 AM
Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 02:27:05 AM
They're are kinda different layers to possession, I'd argue a mantle is a possession with extra coding in the program, what the fallen do, ect.
The thing that throws me for a loop atm,vis one parent died to make Bonnie but we've seen Bob's parents, plural... So how did that happen? The old fashioned way?
That we have seen it in the books does not mean that they are alive. It could be somebody like Sir Stewart or something mentioned in the books, like Siriovax.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 24, 2020, 05:23:15 AM
Quote from: ClintACK on August 24, 2020, 02:14:56 AM
We know one of the parents probably has to be possessing the other. But if we rule out fallen shadows (because he's not on a faith wavelength) -- what else have we seen possessing people? Ghosts.

But I'm not sure that helps any. Have we seen any ghosts that are old enough?

Actually we don’t, you are presuming this is the only form of interaction creating a spirit of intellect, when it would appear this circumstance is unique to Harry at least with the Denarians,  nor is it likely that it is a ghost as the only such spirit in book old enough is Sue.

Mavra is too young, Bob is 1,000 years old.

Mac and Etnui’s Child is well documented in folklore, not Bob.

Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: vultur on August 24, 2020, 06:18:02 AM
I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be possession, but lots of beings we might think of as spirits have changelings/scions, not spirits of intellect.

Half-Fae/half-humans are changelings, mostly human until they Choose. Glau in PG is a djinn/human scion, and he's still mostly human, not a spirit.

So I think a supernatural being in nonphysical/pure-spirit form, or a bodiless shadow of a greater supernatural being, would have to be one of the parents.

Fae seem pretty tied into the Changeling/Choice mechanic, so I'm skeptical of Mab or Lea. Also, if Bob were Mab's son, I'd expect him to be incorporated into Winter's power structure, not essentially exiled and fearing for his life.

What about Odin (possibly with Gard, who might be mortal enough, yet is over 1000 years old)? He has ties to Winter as Kringle, but isn't of its power structure, Kringle is still Wyldfae. Odin is a god of knowledge, writing, and magic (among many other things).

Odin seems physical, but we really don't know what he is *under* his Mantles. Even if he is basically physical, he might be able to do something like the 'shadow' effect. IMO Valkyries are sort of like the Faerie Knights, so Odin probably can split off part of his power.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 07:23:01 AM
Odin already gave birth to two Soi imo, hugin anmunin. In the category of things that keep repeating, pretty sure the Archive was formulated out of Merlin or another old renditions Soi. I say Merlin cause of her purpose..
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: ClintACK on August 24, 2020, 02:12:12 PM
In Greek myth, Zeus swallowed the oceanid titan Metis. Months later, he suffered from terrible headaches. Hermes identified the problem, Haephestus split open his skull, and Athena burst out fully formed right down to the weapons and armor.

So... in Peace Talks, we've seen an ocean-based Last Titan. But that doesn't seem to fit anything.

In Grave Peril (and Dead Beat, and Ghost Story) we see that supernaturals can power up by literally eating the ghost/spirit/energy of other powerful beings.

And in Dead Beat and Ghost Story we see that spirits of information can be split into different independent beings containing different information. See: Evil Bob.

So...

Could some spirits of information form when an immortal takes up incompatible mantles and needs to carve out a piece (like Bob did to Evil Bob) to make what remains into the coherent whole they want? Could such spirits spin off in the aftermath of a Death Hallow, as the consumed souls consolidate to form the new god? (like planets forming in the leftover debris ring as a star is born?)

Could Odin's Ravens be leftover bits of his former greater mantle of power -- spun off to be separate from him, so he can be Vadderung and interact with mortals, but still there to be used and, in a worst-case scenario, reabsorbed to reascend to the power level that makes Ethniu respect "what he was".

Theory: Bob was created as a spin-off of Mab's ascension ritual when she became more than mortal. He either doesn't need a second parent, or the second parent is Titania. The timing is about right, isn't it?
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: vultur on August 24, 2020, 04:32:06 PM
Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 07:23:01 AM
Odin already gave birth to two Soi imo, hugin anmunin.

Yeah, I think Odin's ravens/Vadderung's receptionists are essentially the same principle ... but probably without another parent involved.

Probably more directly analogous to Lasciel producing the shadow Lash, actually.

Something similar might have occurred with the splitting of Hecate's power among the various Faerie Queens.

And the Faerie Knight Mantles are apparently chunks of power split from the Queens' Mantles, from the WoJ about whether the Erlking could have a Knight.

So the general principle might be fairly common among beings of great power in the Dresdenverse.

-

The more I think about it, the more I think Odin fits.

It would explain Bob having connections to Faerie and specifically Winter, but also being an outcast (if he were Mab's son, I'd expect her to have made him her advisor or something - incorporating his dangerous knowledge into the power structure of Winter).

Given the 'obvious' statement, the other parent would then probably be Gard, since she's established in "Heorot" to be older than Bob and to have or once had a relationship with Odin.

The other option that could be considered 'obvious' might be Demonreach and the original Merlin (if Bob's video in CD counts as him having "appeared in the Dresden Files"). But there's no Faerie connection and Bob doesn't seem particularly Demonreach-y.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: vultur on August 24, 2020, 04:44:21 PM
Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 03:23:21 AM
Pretty sure what harry and mab did remade the WK mantle specifically for harry. It's why it mirrors him. Using the table basically unmade the mantle but gave winter back its power. So yea..

Given the Celtic connections of the Fae, I think this is supposed to be a mystical marriage to a goddess representing a transfer of power. Similar to what the first high kings of Ireland are mythologically supposed to have done.

Now it doesn't make Harry a king, but the Winter Knight is called "consort of the Queens of Winter" after all, and "consort" in this context probably means "spouse of a ruler". And Mab says to Lara in PT that Harry is a member of her House ... not just her Court, but her House, i.e. presumably the "royal house" of Winter.

I'm not sure it did anything magical to the Mantle itself compared to just transferring it in the usual way... I think it's more Mab emphasizing her claim to Harry in a ritual way (thus her "projecting" it to all of Faerie).
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: knightedbishop on August 24, 2020, 07:29:01 PM
My money is on Merlin (the original) and Mab.

Bob is incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to mortal magic (see chapter 15 of Cold Days, where Bob says to Harry "I'm conversant in the course and application of the Art since the golden age of Greece"). We know the original Merlin was a magical genius. He learned from Odin (according to Ebenezer). We know he time traveled to build Demonreach. Plus there's a potential familial relationship (or more likely a master to apprentice relationship). Ebenezer has masters' journals going all the way back to the original Merlin. It would be only fitting that a spirit of intellect born of Merlin would end up in the hands of his penultimate protege. Heck, it may have even been intentional.

As for why Mab, his two key characteristics fit. Bob is about intellect and doesn't much understand emotions. He is horny as hell. In Cold Days, Titania talks about how her sister follows the mind and logic. From Cold Case, we know the creatures of Winter are filled with a hunger to procreate.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: The_Sibelis on August 24, 2020, 09:00:56 PM
@vulture of course it did something, she had him unmake the mantle, cleansing it and then ritually had him remake it. Consort, he with whom they mate, make babies? It's not at all the usual way of transferring the mantle, as she'd previously given it to Maeve to hand out, and Aurora gave it to lily. Neither of which could ahh mate. So she has him go through the process of unmaking the mantle on the table, which transfers power not the form of it, meaning she'd have to remake it, it being remade through sex is highly suggestive esp combined with him being the consort. The ritual itself had purpose. It's almost like she planted an embryo, and I'd point out, despite bonnie's natural growth, he didn't start getting pressed for mental room(ie headaches) until after he had the mantle. Their wasn't enough room for both.
Or coming at it from another angle, she's the queen, she's had sex, even children, but she's not automatically the mother.. because she has to birth an entity into this world, not a human. The mothers are the mothers because they split a portion of themselves off and handed it down to the courts, literally giving birth to them(hence why mother is only the name associated with their fae identity).
I predict
(click to show/hide)
when it becomes its own thing, that's when she's Mother in the technical sense. The mothers gave birth to the courts, which per SK ARE the queens, like entirely. So when the courts give birth..
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: morriswalters on August 24, 2020, 09:58:04 PM
Bob on evil Bob.
Quote
“I know,” I said. “The thing I saw with the Grey Ghost must be the piece that you cut off.” “Right,” he said. “Got it in one.” “Your offspring, one might say.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 196). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Quote
I grunted. “How big?” Bob rolled his eyes. “Do you want me to tell you in archaic measurements or metric?” “Ballpark it.” “Um. A hundred years’ worth of knowledge, maybe?”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 196). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
And this is effectively how Bonea must have been made since she seems to have Lash's knowledge but not her personality.  Lash took the hits on the parts that made her, who she was. Given that, one parent could be the Archive, since she is effectively a spirit of intellect, with some small part given to make Bob.  My personal WAG is that Bonea will become the Archive since the Archive, as yet, has no origin story.

While looking this up I ran in some egregious foreshadowing, with Bob saying that anything can be true in the multiverse and that there is almost certainly a Harry out there with an eye patch and a goatee. And we can hope, a hat.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Mira on August 25, 2020, 02:23:40 PM
Quote from: morriswalters on August 24, 2020, 09:58:04 PM
Bob on evil Bob.And this is effectively how Bonea must have been made since she seems to have Lash's knowledge but not her personality.  Lash took the hits on the parts that made her, who she was. Given that, one parent could be the Archive, since she is effectively a spirit of intellect, with some small part given to make Bob.  My personal WAG is that Bonea will become the Archive since the Archive, as yet, has no origin story.

While looking this up I ran in some egregious foreshadowing, with Bob saying that anything can be true in the multiverse and that there is almost certainly a Harry out there with an eye patch and a goatee. And we can hope, a hat.
It is hard to say about Bonea as to what her personality is going to be, she is still very young.  She
may end up with Id Harry's personality which might not be an all together good thing.. And she might end up with Lasciel's personality pre-fall or pre-Lash.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Dina on August 25, 2020, 04:10:20 PM
I think she is probably the first SoI to grown up with a sister (a child herself). I believe that will shape her personality for ever.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Mira on August 25, 2020, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: Dina on August 25, 2020, 04:10:20 PM
I think she is probably the first SoI to grown up with a sister (a child herself). I believe that will shape her personality for ever.

I agree, plus we know that Harry has had a positive influence on both her mother and Bob.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: TheCuriousFan on August 29, 2020, 04:50:53 AM
Quote from: Con on August 23, 2020, 12:02:36 PM
I thought that was just a side effect of getting all of Susans memories of Harry. Susan loved Harry therefore protection
Lea tried to bargain for Susan's love but that bargain was turned down in favour of memories.
Title: Re: About Bob... (Spoilers All, Spoilers today's AMA)
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 29, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
All memories of loving Harry, Lea got what she wanted through the backdoor like a crafty Fae.