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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 12, 2020, 04:51:33 AM
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So corner hounds; A.K.A. the Hounds of Tindalos, are attracted by time travelers. However, Ebenezer told Harry that, "Someone just whistled them up." So someone summoned them. My guess is the practitioner would have just summoned Outsiders in general and the corner hounds responded because Ebenezer had been doing some recent time travel. An alternative is Ebenezer crossed paths with another practitioner (Black Council) who followed Ebenezer back to Harry's present, or sent his current self a message, and this person specifically called up the corner hounds to target Ebenezer. I think that alternative is too complicated; after all these books aren't called the Ebenezer chronicles, so there's no need for that level of complication.
So, either someone like Cowl called up the corner hounds; even if Cowl never makes a public appearance in Battle Ground, or someone who was a part of the White Council contingent to the peace talks, called them in.
I'm not taking a position on this question. We don't have a significant positive clue to point either way. However, there is one odd thing that I would call a negative clue. (I know there are other, more accurate terms than positive and negative clues, but I can't think of what they are at the moment.)
To get to the point, why didn't Warden Ramirez notice that one of Harry's hands had been bandaged since he had seen him on the beach that morning? I'm thinking that after Harry had punched a gas tank and had the wound or wounds on the hand debrided, Butter's would have used something a hell of a lot larger than a couple of band-aids to cover them.
It may be a clue the Ramirez already knew that Harry had tangled with corner hounds and had injured his hand or it could be sloppy writing on Jim's part. I wonder if any of the beta readers noticed this? Yes, I know that Ramirez and company were preoccupied with Harry's visit to the Raith compound, but Harry's hand should have been noticeable. In fact, any of the other wardens should have noticed Harry recently bandaged hand and asked him about it. Hell, Lara should have asked Harry about it. Even if; one, the guilty party didn't see that Harry injured his hand, or; two, none of the wardens are guilty of calling up the corner hounds, they should have noticed Harry's wounded hand. Harry explaining that he had tangled with outsiders a few hours earlier would have added an interesting complication to that conversation.
While I'm at it, shouldn't Harry have mentioned the corner hounds at the security meeting with the other wardens before the dinner? Aside from discussing the possibility of other assassination attempts after Etri was attacked, the fact that Outsiders had been called up by an unknown party should have made that meeting more than a, "boring all-business meeting" as was stated at the beginning of chapter 19.
I hate saying this, but this is another indication to me that the process of splitting the story into two books took time and effort away from finding and fixing the errors or weaknesses in the overall text.
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The likelihood is that the magic used for time travel by a mortal summons the Hounds as a side effect of its use, as a time traveller you put yourself at risk of the Hounds, which terrifies even Eb as the most powerful mortal practitioner. You create a paradox which weakens reality allowing them in. This may suggest why you shouldn’t travel against the currents of time, but travelling with them is permitted as it doesn’t create a paradox, letting in the Hounds.
The effect was localised to Chicago, so all that Eb had to do was make sure there were no other wizards in Chicago at that point, and he had the authority for that, except for Harry. The White Court may not be sensitive to it and the Swartalves had other concerns. The Winter Lady was in Russia. He thought he could get away with it, or was unaware that it called the Hounds. There is no reason to suggest Eb had time travelled before, (otherwise he would have corrected his mistakes with Harry and Margaret) he might merely had to deal with warlocks and Kemmler who had and had ended up fighting the Hounds their actions summoned, not realising the link.
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Time travel per se might not be the only thing that summons the Hounds of Tindalos, maybe travel between parallel universes also does. And the next book was planned to be Mirror Mirror (before the PT/BG split, that is...)
Eb has the license to break the Laws of Magic, but from what Odin/Kringle says in CD I am not sure how much he actually can do. If it's difficult for even Odin/Kringle (presumably far more powerful than any mortal wizard) to do a relatively small time-shift, and actually changing history is even harder, what could Eb do?
But presumably that Law exists for a reason, so there must be a way for mortal wizards to break it and do harm.
So who knows.
the fact that Outsiders had been called up by an unknown party should have made that meeting more than a, "boring all-business meeting" as was stated at the beginning of chapter 19.
That does seem kind of suspicious.
Though given that Harry was watching Justine's house at the time, he might not have told anyone because it might be related to Thomas and Harry doesn't want the Council to know about that.
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Time travel per se might not be the only thing that summons the Hounds of Tindalos, maybe travel between parallel universes also does. And the next book was planned to be Mirror Mirror (before the PT/BG split, that is...)
Eb has the license to break the Laws of Magic, but from what Odin/Kringle says in CD I am not sure how much he actually can do. If it's difficult for even Odin/Kringle (presumably far more powerful than any mortal wizard) to do a relatively small time-shift, and actually changing history is even harder, what could Eb do?
But presumably that Law exists for a reason, so there must be a way for mortal wizards to break it and do harm.
So who knows.
That does seem kind of suspicious.
Though given that Harry was watching Justine's house at the time, he might not have told anyone because it might be related to Thomas and Harry doesn't want the Council to know about that.
But knowing how Ebenezer feels about the White Court, if Harry thought there was a possibility that the corner hounds had something to do with Thomas, why would Harry expect his grandfather to keep knowledge of that encounter to himself? It seems to me that Ebenezer is more likely to use anything he could to seal Thomas' fate.
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This thread should be re-titled along the lines of “Who Let The Dogs Out, Who, Who, Who, Who ....”
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@KurtinStGeorge
Harry gives a rationale for this when he talks about secrets isolating you. Generally speaking everybody is keeping secrets at the peace conference and it keeps them from working together. Harry doesn't trust the Wardens, the Wardens don't trust Harry and Thomas is being used by who know what. Eb doesn't tell his right hand what his left hand is doing. Even River Shoulders is keeping secrets. This is about fun, fantasy, and confusion. Keep everybody milling around until you land the sucker punch. It was just a lame sucker punch.
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But knowing how Ebenezer feels about the White Court, if Harry thought there was a possibility that the corner hounds had something to do with Thomas, why would Harry expect his grandfather to keep knowledge of that encounter to himself? It seems to me that Ebenezer is more likely to use anything he could to seal Thomas' fate.
It might be just general "wizards keeping secrets" as morriswalters says, but I think also the difference is that Eb wants to get rid of Thomas and keep Harry in the White Council. He doesn't want Harry to be obviously seen as taking Thomas' side.
And I doubt Eb generally reports to the Wardens about stuff he fights anyway. Harry, as a Warden, might be expected to.
EDIT: Also, I'm not suggesting that Harry thought the Cornerhounds had something to do with Thomas specifically, in the sense that they were the result of Thomas doing something nefarious. More likely he assumed that one of the other groups watching Justine's house summoned them.
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It could be that they were sent as yet another distraction. They also could have been a preemptive
strike by the Fomor. If indeed the Gates are being attacked, unless it is opportunistic on the part of
the Outsiders, they are in league with the Fomor. So why wouldn't they try to take out the most dangerous member of the Senior Council, the Blackstaff? And while they are at it the star child, Harry?
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Outsiders have to be whistled in by a mortal, presumably due to free will. That means a significantly powerful practioner. Eb either did it unintentionally, and they sought him out ,or another wizard did it intentionally setting them on Eb.
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Outsiders have to be whistled in by a mortal, presumably due to free will. That means a significantly powerful practioner. Eb either did it unintentionally, and they sought him out ,or another wizard did it intentionally setting them on Eb.
Justine? Christos? Nic? Cowl?
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Justine and Nic are not practitioners, although the protection on True Love like the bodysuit, would also stop her magical aura being read by Harry, did they touch in Grave Peril?
Nic isn’t a practitioner, but has them working for him, he figures why fix his own toilet, when he can hire a plumber. Hmm he wanted to hire Harry as a ‘plumber’.
Has anyone any idea what happened to Austin? His new Master may have been Black Council and used him to summon the Hounds, we are getting a lot of shout backs from the stories in PT, and he is as naturally gifted in Summoning as Molly is with veils, or Harry in making things explode, or Carlos in virginity.
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Justine and Nic are not practitioners, although the protection on True Love like the bodysuit, would also stop her magical aura being read by Harry, did they touch in Grave Peril?
Nic isn’t a practitioner, but has them working for him, he figures why fix his own toilet, when he can hire a plumber. Hmm he wanted to hire Harry as a ‘plumber’.
Has anyone any idea what happened to Austin? His new Master may have been Black Council and used him to summon the Hounds, we are getting a lot of shout backs from the stories in PT, and he is as naturally gifted in Summoning as Molly is with veils, or Harry in making things explode, or Carlos in virginity.
Depends on what you call a practitioner.. It's been a while since I read Blood Rites, but I don't think it took much talent to call up an Outsider, just the right ritual/words. Those that I mention would have access to both the ritual/words and someone who could do it.
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If it were that easy then we could be ass deep in Outsiders, the Gates exist for a purpose, and make it difficult to whistle in the Outsiders.
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I'm currently assuming that BG ends with another cliff hanger into Mirror Mirror. With that in mind, one possible person who might be interested in calling in an outsider might be Harry 2, for who knows what? Maybe to drag off Harry to some more convenient reality.
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If it were that easy then we could be ass deep in Outsiders, the Gates exist for a purpose, and make it difficult to whistle in the Outsiders.
IMO, Winter (and, in past eras, other defenders of the Gates) keeps the Outsiders from just overrunning Reality. The Gates themselves let Winter go on the offense and help check for Nemesis incursions.
But mortal magic can still summon Outsiders. IIRC it's a free will/invitation thing, like thresholds. The Outsiders can't just rampage in and unmake Reality, but if you invite them in, that's different.
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I think it kind of *is* that easy, if you know something about Outsiders and magic, are crazy enough to do it, and don't get killed by the Wardens.
Which probably actually doesn't describe that many people, so it's not really that easy in practice.
But the bad guys never seem to have that much trouble getting Outsiders...
- Justin summoned HWWBehind before the series.
- The "evil eye cult" summoned HWWBehind in BR... though he didn't actually attack, just threatened Harry, so I'm not sure he was 100% "there" in a physically capable form.
- The Red Court's allies used Outsiders in the big offscreen battles in DB, and also in PG.
- Vitto Malvora is possessed by an Outsider in WN.
- Peabody's mistfiend in TC was probably an Outsider (it's said to be "from the far reaches of the Nevernever", but a later book calls it an Outsider. At the very least, it's Outside-connected due to mordite.)
- There's a ton of them in the attack on Demonreach in CD, including HWWBefore.
- A pack of cornerhounds shows up in PT.
(I think there's also an Outsider in the graphic novel "War Cry", but I haven't seen that one...)
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If it were that easy then we could be ass deep in Outsiders, the Gates exist for a purpose, and make it difficult to whistle in the Outsiders.
Well, it sort of is.. page 202 Blood Rites paperback Harry talking to Ms Vixen
"Oh," she said, regaining her composure. "You underestimate my powers."
I snorted. "You haven't got any powers."
"Yes, I do. I've killed with them."
"You've killed with a ritual,"I said.
"What's the difference?"
"The difference," I said, "is that if you have any skill of your own magic, you don't need a ritual." "Whatever. They're the same thing anyway. Magic. Power."
"No," I said. "Look, a ritual spell like that doesn't have anything to do with you. It's like a cosmic vending machine. You put two quarters in, push the right button, and a curse comes flying out, courtesy of some psychotic otherworldly force that enjoys that kind of thing. It doesn't take skill. It doesn't take talent. You could be a freaking monkey and invoke that curse just as well."
With a little help from the above ritual, Madge [a low level sorceress] called up He Who Walks Behind.
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We don't know that the corner hounds have anything to do with time travel in the DF. It's likely but not confirmed. And if it does, I doubt Harry knows.
I wouldn't be surprised if people have just stopped asking Harry where his new injuries come from.
Summoning Outsiders points to the Black Council. Harry might just let Eb decide whether or not to bring that up in front of a bunch of young wardens. It'd be different if it was just Ramirez.
This thread should be re-titled along the lines of “Who Let The Dogs Out, Who, Who, Who, Who ....”
Your jokes are terrible, and I love them.
I'm currently assuming that BG ends with another cliff hanger into Mirror Mirror.
I really hope not.
I'm not sure if they ex-wives' club summoned HHWBehind. I think it might have been a partial summoning. And Madge was a practitioner of some skill.
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(I think there's also an Outsider in the graphic novel "War Cry", but I haven't seen that one...)
That one, at least, was called up by Peabody -- so not just a random schlub.
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Summoning Outsiders points to the Black Council. Harry might just let Eb decide whether or not to bring that up in front of a bunch of young wardens. It'd be different if it was just Ramirez.
Yeah, that's a good point too.
I'm not sure if they ex-wives' club summoned HHWBehind.
Not exactly, at least that's not what they were trying to accomplish, but it's basically what happened. The ritual was interrupted, and instead of getting the desired effect (killer entropy curse), HWWBehind showed up.
I think it might have been a partial summoning.
Probably something like that, the manifestation of HWWBehind wasn't anything like the one Justin summoned (as seen in Harry's memories in GS). In BR he might not have had full access to his powers in the mortal world, maybe?
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- The "evil eye cult" summoned HWWBehind in BR... though he didn't actually attack, just threatened Harry, so I'm not sure he was 100% "there" in a physically capable form.
- Peabody's mistfiend in TC was probably an Outsider (it's said to be "from the far reaches of the Nevernever", but a later book calls it an Outsider. At the very least, it's Outside-connected due to mordite.)
First was Madge's body. As I turned to leave, it suddenly sat up. Spines protruded from its skin, along with rivulets of slow, dead blood. Its face was ravaged shapeless, but it formed up into the features of the demon called He Who Walks Behind, and its mouth spoke in a honey-smooth, honey-sweet, inhuman voice. "I am returned, mortal man," the demon said through Madge's dead lips. "And I remember thee. Thou and I, we have unfinished business between us."
Then there was a bubbling hiss, and the corpse deflated like an empty balloon.
He seemed there enough to go with an "I'm back" taunt instead of anything else. Not sure what he's been up to since Blood Rites.
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He seemed there enough to go with an "I'm back" taunt instead of anything else. Not sure what he's been up to since Blood Rites.
He has been working as a lobbyist, he felt he was only demi-evil.
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He has been working as a lobbyist, he felt he was only demi-evil.
That's my favorite post of the day.
I'm currently assuming that BG ends with another cliff hanger into Mirror Mirror. With that in mind, one possible person who might be interested in calling in an outsider might be Harry 2, for who knows what? Maybe to drag off Harry to some more convenient reality.
I have a feeling that if there is a cliff hanger at the end of BG, it won't have anything to do with the story. Instead that story will have ended at it will be like the end of the old 90's Sci-fi TV show Quantum Leap. Harry will be taken (it's the best word I can come up with) to another place where a bunch of people he recognizes but who look totally different; maybe some with burn scars, will be chasing Harry and throwing spells his way and the only thing Harry will be able to say on the last sentence of the last page is, "Oh boy!"
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There is nothing alluded to in Christmas Eve at all about anything regarding Mirror, Mirror, and it would be a poor time with far to many heavy hitters able to sense this in one place.
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Cliff hanger? ::) Fine 8) But I don't want to wait another six years to see how it turns out! >:(
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Are you suggesting fans Misery Jim?
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Are you suggesting fans Misery Jim?
Hell yeah..
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There is nothing alluded to in Christmas Eve at all about anything regarding Mirror, Mirror, and it would be a poor time with far to many heavy hitters able to sense this in one place.
You need better Star Trek lore. Try Tomorrow Is Yesterday and put Harry in the F104.
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You need better Star Trek lore. Try Tomorrow Is Yesterday and put Harry in the F104.
That wouldn't work either, because the pilot in the fighter was the victim and Kirk and company had
to put it right. I think "City on the Edge of Forever," might work better. McCoy affected by an accidental drug injection goes through a time portal and saves a woman which destroys the future. Kirk and Spock go back to undo it.. They are successful, but it is very sad because naturally Kirk has fallen in love with the woman he has to let die.
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He seemed there enough to go with an "I'm back" taunt instead of anything else.
Well, the "cloud with spikes" manifestation is pretty different from the "always behind you" appearance HWWBehind has in Harry's GS memories of the fight.
But yeah, that might not reflect lesser power, maybe Walkers have a variety of possible forms, who knows how they work.
(A weird cloth ball thing flies out of HWWBefore when Harry 'kills' him in CD. Maybe that's the same as HWWBehind's cloud with spikes, and HWWBefore's "body" was a possessed corpse of a summoner.)
I was thinking that if he was fully powered he might want to do more damage rather than just kill his summoner.
But who knows, at this point in the series (pre-Winter Knight) the Outsiders might still have hopes of subverting Harry.
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That wouldn't work either, because the pilot in the fighter was the victim and Kirk and company had
to put it right. I think "City on the Edge of Forever," might work better. McCoy affected by an accidental drug injection goes through a time portal and saves a woman which destroys the future. Kirk and Spock go back to undo it.. They are successful, but it is very sad because naturally Kirk has fallen in love with the woman he has to let die.
In the Mirror Mirror Dresdenverse I could see Harry having to kill, or set up for someone else to kill, a Red Court Susan who has become far more powerful and dangerous than Bianca ever dreamed of being. That could be a nod to both "City of Forever" and Mirror Mirror without being an exact copy of either.
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In the Mirror Mirror Dresdenverse I could see Harry having to kill, or set up for someone else to kill, a Red Court Susan who has become far more powerful and dangerous than Bianca ever dreamed of being. That could be a nod to both "City of Forever" and Mirror Mirror without being an exact copy of either.
Not, Mirror Mirror, because that episode had nothing to do with time travel. It was a transporter malfunction that sent Kirk and company into an alternate universe, and their counterparts into the normal universe, personality wise, each character was totally opposite. Only constant was Spock in both universes, he didn't go through the transporter, he figured out something was very wrong, and he had integrity in both universes. Our Kirk in the alternate universe suggests that after things get set straight again, that Spock needed to kill his Kirk..
Another good time travel episode was Yesterday's Enterprise, from Star Trek Next Gen. The tear in the universe is created and Picard and company investigate, in the process they see the Enterprise from twenty years or so before come through, and everything changes, the Federation is at war with the Kingons and they are losing. Also showing up as head of security is Tasha Yar, who is supposed to be dead.. Apparently there was a battle that the Enterprise was supposed to be blown up in, didn't it got sent through the tear and as a result, all of history was changed. So they figure it out, Tasha Yar realizes she is supposed to be dead, asks for and is granted a transfer to the old Enterprise, they go back through the tear, are successful and everything is restored.. One of my all time favorite episodes on a number of levels from music to acting and story...
Then instead of leaving well enough alone, they just had to screw it up.... Tasha Yar survived and married a Romulan and they had a baby girl, Denise Crosby.... >:(
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There is nothing alluded to in Christmas Eve at all about anything regarding Mirror, Mirror, and it would be a poor time with far to many heavy hitters able to sense this in one place.
Yeah, I'd expect Mirror Mirror to be roughly a year after BG as usual, after "Christmas Eve".
PT/BG were originally planned to be one book, so that's why they're happening in the same timeframe.
While Changes/GS/CD had an unusual timeline, I'd expect the roughly one year per book timeline to be consistent going forwards.
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I would guess the following Halloween, 15 months after BG. The wall between the world and the Never Never thin, you can kill immortals, so why not the walls between worlds also thin?
Having it on Halloween would also mean time pressure, a big component of the book, Harry would have to figure out his return before Halloween ends.
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Hi, i dont do much posting here and im not sure if this will show on the thread i want it to but if the hounds are attracted by time travel, doesn't Chandler specialize in time magic? And he was in Chicago the next night, mabey he sent them back 1 night to attack harry not knowing eb would be there.
If chandler specializes in time magic (a point made in text in PT) then maybe corner hounds are the easiest outsider for him too summon?
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Hi, i dont do much posting here and im not sure if this will show on the thread i want it to but if the hounds are attracted by time travel, doesn't Chandler specialize in time magic? And he was in Chicago the next night, mabey he sent them back 1 night to attack harry not knowing eb would be there.
If chandler specializes in time magic (a point made in text in PT) then maybe corner hounds are the easiest outsider for him too summon?
Good point. He came up in another thread about Peabody's partner on Demonreach in Turn Coat.
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Hi, i dont do much posting here and im not sure if this will show on the thread i want it to but if the hounds are attracted by time travel, doesn't Chandler specialize in time magic? And he was in Chicago the next night, mabey he sent them back 1 night to attack harry not knowing eb would be there.
If chandler specializes in time magic (a point made in text in PT) then maybe corner hounds are the easiest outsider for him too summon?
I think we may be putting too much into the Hounds and time travel. They were sent by somebody apparently to attack Harry, I doubt that time travel had anything to do with it.
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I think the Time Travel is key because why else call the hounds that specific name? If Jim just wanted to throw a demon doggy at Harry and Eb it could have been anything.
One thing that I noticed during the Hounds fight is that twice Eb says that "concentrated fire works best" and Harry doesn't even try to use fire? I think the only fire he casts is flickum bickus.
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I think it is important that Harry to Butters called then the Hounds of Tindalos its from there the time travel connection was made, not from Eb, who merely called the corner hounds without really elucidating further. They clearly were pursuing Eb, so Harry has to surmise that Eb has time travelled
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One thing that I noticed during the Hounds fight is that twice Eb says that "concentrated fire works best" and Harry doesn't even try to use fire? I think the only fire he casts is flickum bickus.
That is interesting since Harry has always been the king of KABOOM, when it comes to fire magic.
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Real fire hurts Outsiders not magical fire, when he took on He Who Walks Like an Egyptian Harry blew up a gas station.
A Flame Thrower is the mortal weapon of choice against Outsiders, or a nuclear bomb.
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Real fire hurts Outsiders not magical fire, when he took on He Who Walks Like an Egyptian Harry blew up a gas station.
A Flame Thrower is the mortal weapon of choice against Outsiders, or a nuclear bomb.
Um, the fires that Harry set off with his KABOOM were very real.. The gas station fire was set off by Harry's magic, he didn't use a match or a flame thrower.
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I think it is important that Harry to Butters called then the Hounds of Tindalos its from there the time travel connection was made, not from Eb, who merely called the corner hounds without really elucidating further. They clearly were pursuing Eb, so Harry has to surmise that Eb has time travelled
I feel the idea that Eb mind-whammied Thomas to try and "free" Harry of the White Court and Svartalves is weak writing with how the book was written- but I think it's plausible because of the ruckus Eb raised when he essentially pushed his way in to visit Harry. It seemed out of character for him. He attracted the attention of the security force, and had *lots* of witnesses that he was nowhere near Thomas at the time- and obviously he can't be in two places at once. Except he can, if he time travels. And he conveniently has a starborn to help him cope with the major reason not to do a very short time jump- the corner hounds.
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Um, the fires that Harry set off with his KABOOM were very real.. The gas station fire was set off by Harry's magic, he didn't use a match or a flame thrower.
The fires were sparked by magic, but the burning gasoline fire itself would, I think, qualify as natural flame, just as the gas circle in the garage was sparked via Harry's spell but still affected the Hounds as natural flame.
So, if Eb is to be believed, the Hounds can avoid most of anything based on Willpower (magic), but suffer more damage via natural processes, without a Will shaping them.
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Not just concentrated fire. Harry's learned in past books that soulfire is particularly effective against outsiders, but he doesn't think to ask about it or try it.
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Real fire hurts Outsiders not magical fire, when he took on He Who Walks Like an Egyptian Harry blew up a gas station.
But in this very fight, we see Eb use magical fire like a thin laser and slice off parts of the outsiders.
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Using all his power at its most intense at the closest of ranges from the most powerful of wizards.
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I think it is important that Harry to Butters called then the Hounds of Tindalos its from there the time travel connection was made
Well, the first lines of Chapter 13 are
Hounds of Tindalos are real, huh?" Butters asked. "Weird."
"Well. For some values of 'real'," I said. "Lovecraft got kicked out of the Venatori Umbrorum for mucking about with Thule Society research.
"For some values of 'real'" might mean that the story description of them is not quite accurate, so I don't know that we can necessarily say that the Hounds work that way in the Dresdenverse. (It does seem that the "enzyme" thing they had in the original story has been replaced by an infrasound attack.)
BTW, Hounds of Tindalos aren't actually from Lovecraft... they are a Frank Belknap Long invention.
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Just a thought, but Justine might have called them up. It isn't out of the question that with her association with the Raith family and those around them that she'd be aware of words and ritual to call them up. Funny this happens shortly after Harry pays her a visit, don't you think?