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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: vultur on July 21, 2020, 05:59:55 AM
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So - Lara just outright charges Harry with a knife?
Yeah, I know, "people are irrational about family" is one of the themes of the book. But Lara's White Court. She's been surviving in a really deadly society for a long time. She really ought to be more controlled than that.
Even without Demonreach, there wasn't much chance of that working out for her.
She was there in WN. She's seen what happens when a White Court vampire goes up against a combat-capable wizard; it ain't good for the vampire. Sure, she had Valkyrie backup, but Harry could have fried or frozen her just as quickly as he told the island to grab her - before Freydis could have done anything.
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Could be that it was an act. Trying to play into Dresden's expectations about her - caring about family, straight-forward, still one of the "good" guys etc.
When taken from that perspective it suddenly isn't so strange an act.
And then one day, she'll pull the rug out from under Dresden.
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Testing maybe? Perhaps she wanted to see what Harry could really do on the island? She might
even have ancestors in the prison.
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Testing maybe? Perhaps she wanted to see what Harry could really do on the island? She might
even have ancestors in the prison.
She was either completely out of it or she did not know what Harry could do with the island. I really think both because there are so many ways she could have played this better. Maybe Harry’s true love protection played a role too, they both knew he had it.
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She was either completely out of it or she did not know what Harry could do with the island. I really think both because there are so many ways she could have played this better. Maybe Harry’s true love protection played a role too, they both knew he had it.
Even if she succeeded in killing Harry, did she realize that she'd then have no hope in hell in ever getting Thomas out?
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She was nearly drained, too -- when people are hungry, they don't necessarily think as rationally as they would otherwise.
Lara is near a breaking point -- Thomas nearly dead, the whole city about to be plunged into Chaos, and a mortal world aware of vampires is one that will kill her.
She's not acting like she normally would, which is the point -- this is an extraordinary circumstance even by her standards, and everyone has a breaking point.
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Harry, who is almost always very straight with everyone he deals with, saved Thomas in a manner that gave him serious leverage over Lara. Sure he's outplayed her before, but it's always worked out to benefit her a great deal. This time it didn't. This time it was pretty one-sided in Harry's favor. And that was when he was working for her paying back very valuable favors. I'm pretty sure that would have been enough to have her off balance. With everything else mentioned by others, she was bound to let her emotions get the better of her.
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Harry, who is almost always very straight with everyone he deals with, saved Thomas in a manner that gave him serious leverage over Lara. Sure he's outplayed her before, but it's always worked out to benefit her a great deal. This time it didn't. This time it was pretty one-sided in Harry's favor. And that was when he was working for her paying back very valuable favors. I'm pretty sure that would have been enough to have her off balance. With everything else mentioned by others, she was bound to let her emotions get the better of her.
However when you come down to it, how many choices did Harry have? He and Lara are just lucky that he is the Warden of Demonreach. I guess if this was an earlier book with nothing else but the Accords and the life of Thomas at stake, Harry would have spent the three hundred and fifty pages teasing out who was behind the crime in the first place and maybe get Thomas off that way...
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However when you come down to it, how many choices did Harry have?
Doesn't matter. Lara still feels like she got played.
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What if it was a good way for Laura to learn what he can do while on the island now? There's probably not many that know. Could just be old fashioned rage regarding family. That's been in Turn Coat with her sisters. And the Puck comic book.
Probably a little column A, little column B.
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Doesn't matter. Lara still feels like she got played.
Of course she does, nothing went her way, she isn't thinking. I also think she felt a bit humiliated by what happened to her. She wasn't prepared for the complete control a Warden of the island would have over her on that ground. Lara is used to always getting the upper hand, a humiliated vampire is a dangerous one.. Remember Harry said that Lara gave him very much the same look Bianca did when she realized she wasn't going to win against Harry.
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Monsters don’t like to feel helpless.
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She was either completely out of it or she did not know what Harry could do with the island.
Even if she succeeded in killing Harry, did she realize that she'd then have no hope in hell in ever getting Thomas out?
She didn't know about the island (and may have thought that Thomas was dead - it probably looked like Harry was sacrificing him.)
But my point is that even without Demonreach, attacking Harry that way is pretty unlikely to work out for her. She charged him with a knife drawn; he had time to react. Without Demonreach, he could have just destroyed her with a big blast of magic. Harry ten books ago when he first met Lara might have been slow enough for that sort of thing to work; but even then I doubt it. Harry the Winter Knight as of PT, basically no chance.
We saw in WN just how badly suited the White Court is to direct conflict with powerful supernatural beings. Harry and Carlos are blasting uberghouls left and right, and the White Court are pretty helpless against them.
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But my point is that even without Demonreach, attacking Harry that way is pretty unlikely to work out for her. She charged him with a knife drawn; he had time to react. Without Demonreach, he could have just destroyed her with a big blast of magic. Harry ten books ago when he first met Lara might have been slow enough for that sort of thing to work; but even then I doubt it. Harry the Winter Knight as of PT, basically no chance.
Unless, somewhere along the way she made the same deal her father had made. In that case magic cannot kill her. You will notice that the island buried her in the ground up to her neck so she couldn't move, it didn't try to disarm her or kill her by magic.
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I don't think Lara knew the purpose of the island. Keep in mind that most people don't know, including the late Summer Lady. All Lara saw was her brother being magiked into nothingness. If Lara had known beforehand, she might not have let him go to the island in the first place. Just an observation.
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Maybe just an author's excuse to show what Harry can do in a somewhat purposeful way as the Warden. Regardless of Lara's fatigue at helping Thomas, this still seems out of character.
Also...Thomas as scapegoat for killing Austri? Cat's Paw? The more comments I read, the more I think this whole book is out of character. Maybe JB's been nemfected. Maybe I'm just cranky at having to wait until September.
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Maybe I'm just cranky at having to wait until September.
I think a lot of people are. I see some complaints syaing they don't feel like Peace Talks is a complete book. Well, they are right, it isn't. Having another book releasing 2.5 months later is the part 2. Hell, when Tolkein wanted to publish LOTR as one book, even his publisher said hell no because it would have been MUH-assive. It was the right call. It's not a long wait.
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We saw in WN just how badly suited the White Court is to direct conflict with powerful supernatural beings. Harry and Carlos are blasting uberghouls left and right, and the White Court are pretty helpless against them.
I am the only one remembering a ring of dark goddesses stading around papa Raith killing any of the super powered ghouls that came close? Of course they would not have lasted forever, but helpless was definitely not the term I thought of.
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I think a lot of people are. I see some complaints syaing they don't feel like Peace Talks is a complete book. Well, they are right, it isn't. Having another book releasing 2.5 months later is the part 2. Hell, when Tolkein wanted to publish LOTR as one book, even his publisher said hell no because it would have been MUH-assive. It was the right call. It's not a long wait.
LOTR was a masterpiece, Peace Talks not so much, yes, LOTR was split into three books but each book felt complete, Peace Talks not so much..
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I am the only one remembering a ring of dark goddesses stading around papa Raith killing any of the super powered ghouls that came close? Of course they would not have lasted forever, but helpless was definitely not the term I thought of.
Lara was out of juice.
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I see nothing weird. Lara was out of juice, desperate for Thomas and he believed Harry killed him or hurt him (that is true, actually). And I don't think she knew about Harry power over the island.
Still, I am sad for this because I did not want Lara to be so sore at Harry. I liked them most as frenemies.
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I see nothing weird. Lara was out of juice, desperate for Thomas and he believed Harry killed him or hurt him (that is true, actually). And I don't think she knew about Harry power over the island.
Still, I am sad for this because I did not want Lara to be so sore at Harry. I liked them most as frenemies.
I still think she is more frustrated than anything, she isn't used to be as easily handled as she was on the island. Also none of this is in her control.
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Yes, but that is after she is trapped. I was explaining why I see nothing weird in her behavior before that, just when charging in rage. After that, when she is defeated, you are right. She is frustrated and wants a retaliation.
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And I don't think she knew about Harry power over the island.
Me too. She knew something was up, but probably had no idea the extent of it. Last time she was there, Harry almost died several times. We know Harry has spent a lot of time there and is much more powerful now, but we didn't know the extent of it. How would Lara?
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Me too. She knew something was up, but probably had no idea the extent of it. Last time she was there, Harry almost died several times. We know Harry has spent a lot of time there and is much more powerful now, but we didn't know the extent of it. How would Lara?
Last time she was on the island Harry wasn't officially Warden. He had made friends with Alfred, knew he was aware of what was going on on the island, but beyond that he had no real clue until Cold Days.
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Harry, who is almost always very straight with everyone he deals with, saved Thomas in a manner that gave him serious leverage over Lara. Sure he's outplayed her before, but it's always worked out to benefit her a great deal. This time it didn't. This time it was pretty one-sided in Harry's favor. And that was when he was working for her paying back very valuable favors. I'm pretty sure that would have been enough to have her off balance. With everything else mentioned by others, she was bound to let her emotions get the better of her.
It's almost like fairy favors are worse than when you're not being helped at all.
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I don't see why Lara would have been out of juice. Sure, she was feeding Thomas for an hour, but she's the new equivalent of Lord Raith, who went twenty some years unable to top the tank off but could still use power when needed. Lara just had an orgy the night before and a snack at the Talks. She knows she's going to be in a fight later that night (assuming she heard about the Ethniu thing from Harry five minutes after he woke up on the boat.
So her giving all her power to Thomas seems off. Thomas being weak because he hasn't been feeding works. Lara being weak doesn't.
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You might not want it to be the case, but
"It took her a moment to speak. Her voice came out furry and delicious. “I’m giving him the energy I took earlier. It’s . . . slowing down the damage his Hunger is inflicting. But it’s very bad. And I’m almost . . .” She licked her lips. The sight of it made me want to rip off my shirt and start boasting of my many manly deeds. “. . . empty.” She made the word sound like a sin. “I’ll need to feed if I’m to give him more.” "
Peace Talks page 319.
At least she's says herself that she is almost empty and I don't think she is lying.
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You might not want it to be the case, but
"It took her a moment to speak. Her voice came out furry and delicious. “I’m giving him the energy I took earlier. It’s . . . slowing down the damage his Hunger is inflicting. But it’s very bad. And I’m almost . . .” She licked her lips. The sight of it made me want to rip off my shirt and start boasting of my many manly deeds. “. . . empty.” She made the word sound like a sin. “I’ll need to feed if I’m to give him more.” "
Peace Talks page 319.
At least she's says herself that she is almost empty and I don't think she is lying.
Sure sure, I'm not doubting that she said it, or even that she's being honest.
But she shouldn't be, right? I mean, we have reason to believe that she's being around for a couple centuries. She's the head of the Wamps, and after years leading them, and feeding whenever and however she wants, she should be closer to Lord Raith's power levels than Thomas's.
But she's tapped after an hour of feeding Thomas after numerous meals within the day? She's been using her hunger to beat down Lord Raith's demon, to the point that he's apparently a puppy. And she's presumably been feeding him enough to keep him alive for the sake of the charade.
So to me she's either lying and is actually as powerful as she should be, or she's not and she's inexplicably weak.
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It depends what we are saying with "out of juice". Particularly I did not mean "she is starving" but "she has the munchies. She wants food right now".
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It depends what we are saying with "out of juice". Particularly I did not mean "she is starving" but "she has the munchies. She wants food right now".
I don't think she was starving, but typically when someone is out of juice, they're exhausted and not capable of fighting/playing/continuing. Which strikes me as odd given her presumed power level as White Queen.
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I don't think she was starving, but typically when someone is out of juice, they're exhausted and not capable of fighting/playing/continuing. Which strikes me as odd given her presumed power level as White Queen.
That is how white court vampires work. If their reservoir runs empty they can do less and their hunger puts on pressure to feed. Lara is always well fed. She has little experience in running low.
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For me; the real question is, Why didn't Lara ask Harry specific questions about his plan to keep Thomas safe and hidden. I mean Harry had to have told Lara something like, "I can put Thomas in a kind of stasis that will both protect him from tracking spells and his own hunger, but everything I need to do it is on an island in Lake Michigan" All Lara would have had to have said was something like, "Why there?" and "How does it work?"
In theory, Harry could have lied to Lara if she had asked one or both of the above two questions, but that's not really Harry's style and Lara would know that. So in this situation, Lara charging Harry with a blade is odd; and maybe even somewhat out of character, but what is even more odd is Lara not doing her due diligence.
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For me; the real question is, Why didn't Lara ask Harry specific questions about his plan to keep Thomas safe and hidden. I mean Harry had to have told Lara something like, "I can put Thomas in a kind of stasis that will both protect him from tracking spells and his own hunger, but everything I need to do it is on an island in Lake Michigan" All Lara would have had to have said was something like, "Why there?" and "How does it work?"
In theory, Harry could have lied to Lara if she had asked one or both of the above two questions, but that's not really Harry's style and Lara would know that. So in this situation, Lara charging Harry with a blade is odd; and maybe even somewhat out of character, but what is even more odd is Lara not doing her due diligence.
It started earlier but slowly Jim is showing us that the all powerful super humans are more vulnerable than Harry thought they were. Mab and her daughter. Lara running low. Ebenezer and control issues. Nicodemus not as smart as we thought.
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For me; the real question is, Why didn't Lara ask Harry specific questions about his plan to keep Thomas safe and hidden. I mean Harry had to have told Lara something like, "I can put Thomas in a kind of stasis that will both protect him from tracking spells and his own hunger, but everything I need to do it is on an island in Lake Michigan" All Lara would have had to have said was something like, "Why there?" and "How does it work?"
In theory, Harry could have lied to Lara if she had asked one or both of the above two questions, but that's not really Harry's style and Lara would know that. So in this situation, Lara charging Harry with a blade is odd; and maybe even somewhat out of character, but what is even more odd is Lara not doing her due diligence.
I don't think he would have mentioned stasis. I believe he told her that the island had magical defenses or something like that. The thing is,Harry and Lara had not idea a Titan would appear to create chaos and endanger the whole city. So why Lara thinks Harry did a whole ruse to have the Raith forces protecting him and leverage her? He conceived all that in a minute, as soon as he saw the Titan? And did something completely out of character for him in all the years they have known each other? Nonsense. It makes more sense that Harry is being sincere, that he has done the best he could to protect their brother and she should help him. Besides, don't forget that Lara used her favor to force Harry. I understand her anger and frustration but I would hope it would get better after Lara had some time to cool off. Unfortunately, the whole conversation in the island foreshadows Lara doing something awful to Harry in the future (which, I don't like).
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I don't think he would have mentioned stasis. I believe he told her that the island had magical defenses or something like that. The thing is,Harry and Lara had not idea a Titan would appear to create chaos and endanger the whole city. So why Lara thinks Harry did a whole ruse to have the Raith forces protecting him and leverage her? He conceived all that in a minute, as soon as he saw the Titan? And did something completely out of character for him in all the years they have known each other? Nonsense. It makes more sense that Harry is being sincere, that he has done the best he could to protect their brother and she should help him. Besides, don't forget that Lara used her favor to force Harry. I understand her anger and frustration but I would hope it would get better after Lara had some time to cool off. Unfortunately, the whole conversation in the island foreshadows Lara doing something awful to Harry in the future (which, I don't like).
More sense to us.
But remember the problem about understanding other peoples motives in Skin Game? Karin thinks it easy to understand Harry but for Nicodemus it is very difficult. Lara is bad in understanding Harry because of what Lara is.
(TV Tropes warning. Take a day off)
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilCannotComprehendGood
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Re: Lara being empty...
Remember that Thomas's Hunger has always been described as being much stronger than Lara's (or any other WCV's except their father's) -- it's possible that a comfortable margin for her is barely enough to sate his. And the feeding process is probably less than 100% efficient.
LOTR was a masterpiece, Peace Talks not so much, yes, LOTR was split into three books but each book felt complete, Peace Talks not so much..
LOTR was a masterpiece. But if I'd waited six years to get Two Towers to see how Frodo and Sam got on with their adventures going to Mordor to destroy the ring, I'd have been screaming bloody murder. They spent their entire book walking in swamps and whining about things.
(Also, LOTR was technically six books published in three volumes. /pedantic nitpick.)
Having the next book already there to pick up makes all the difference -- like how the ends of Changes and Ghost Story appeared to us (reading and then waiting for the next book) as opposed to readers picking up the series now. Peace Talks won't feel nearly as incomplete once we've read Battle Ground. The feeling isn't just that the threads are up in the air, it's that we can't identify what are threads of plot and what are red herrings (or worse, signs of the author having lost the plot) until we've read the second half.
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LOTR was a masterpiece. But if I'd waited six years to get Two Towers to see how Frodo and Sam got on with their adventures going to Mordor to destroy the ring, I'd have been screaming bloody murder. They spent their entire book walking in swamps and whining about things.
(Also, LOTR was technically six books published in three volumes. /pedantic nitpick.)
All true, however carefully planned out and refined and rerefined.. Tolkien didn't wait for five years writing other stuff then rushing through the writing of the next book. Also The Two Towers wasn't just about Frodo and Sam stumbling around in the Dead Marshes, there was that "other book" with in the book going on the return of Gandalf, the awakening of the Ents, the healing of King Theoden etc all intertwined and setting up for the climax in Return of the King..
Having the next book already there to pick up makes all the difference -- like how the ends of Changes and Ghost Story appeared to us (reading and then waiting for the next book) as opposed to readers picking up the series now. Peace Talks won't feel nearly as incomplete once we've read Battle Ground. The feeling isn't just that the threads are up in the air, it's that we can't identify what are threads of plot and what are red herrings (or worse, signs of the author having lost the plot) until we've read the second half.
As pointed out, most of the readers of Peace Talks have pretty much read the whole series, a lot of page space didn't need to be mired in rehash. It was never meant to be a stand alone, even if Battle Ground was part of it..
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So - Lara just outright charges Harry with a knife?
Yeah, I know, "people are irrational about family" is one of the themes of the book. But Lara's White Court. She's been surviving in a really deadly society for a long time. She really ought to be more controlled than that.
Even without Demonreach, there wasn't much chance of that working out for her.
She was there in WN. She's seen what happens when a White Court vampire goes up against a combat-capable wizard; it ain't good for the vampire. Sure, she had Valkyrie backup, but Harry could have fried or frozen her just as quickly as he told the island to grab her - before Freydis could have done anything.
To recap her situation:
- Her brother who she raised is basically dead.
- She's got traitors in her midst.
- The city she runs her operations out of is in the middle of being burned to the ground in an event that'll shatter the masquerade and most likely wipe out her court.
- The island absolutely freaks out anyone who isn't Harry.
- Ebenezar's that's what they are comment seemingly got way under her skin.
- She's hungry.
- And most importantly, from where she's standing it really looks like Harry went for a backstab.
So yeah, just a few reasons to lose control over her temper.
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The events on the island are poorly motivated. Jim had already established in Turn Coat what would happen in these circumstances. The Skin Walker used this to torture Thomas. The process was to torture Thomas to the point of death and then feed him. Thomas was starving and it was killing him. There were no people on the island, so where was he going to get food? I don't think there were any cans of instant vampire food in the cabin. Either Lara is a idiot or Jim thinks we are.
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I totally agree with TCF (also, hi! I haven't seen in a while, I don't even know if you visited your birthday thread)
Morris, Harry did not tell Lara that he would feed Thomas, only that he will keep him safe. I don't think he gave her any detail, and there simply were not much time to talk. She trusted him because she believed Harry cared for their brother, and then she saw Thomas hurt and...disappearing. She felt that she did a terrible mistake and failed Thomas.
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The events on the island are poorly motivated. Jim had already established in Turn Coat what would happen in these circumstances. The Skin Walker used this to torture Thomas. The process was to torture Thomas to the point of death and then feed him. Thomas was starving and it was killing him. There were no people on the island, so where was he going to get food? I don't think there were any cans of instant vampire food in the cabin. Either Lara is a idiot or Jim thinks we are.
In chapter one we have Thomas, agitated, Justine is pregnant,> Eb showing up at Harry's place to warn Harry that the White Council is out to get him, but no details> sees Thomas and spews all kinds of vitriol against him and he and Harry get into a heated "talk" about him but no one is honest, not Eb on why he hates vamps so and not Harry that Thomas is his brother and Eb's grandson> Harry goes off to have sex with Murphy and the next thing we know Thomas has tried to assassinate
someone and killed someone else and either the Stavaelves are super fighters or Thomas wasn't "topped" off but they manage to beat him up to the point of death... Jump some more and jump some more, they spring Thomas and head to the island... Why one has to ask didn't Lara insist that they stop at the local McDonalds on the way so Thomas could grab a quick snack from one of the employees?
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I am sure Lara intended to do something like that, but an EMP in Chicago complicated things :)
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I am sure Lara intended to do something like that, but an EMP in Chicago complicated things :)
I could over look the starvation issue, the big elephant in the room is what were his motivations?
Who was behind it? What were their motivations?
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I am sure Lara intended to do something like that, but an EMP in Chicago complicated things :)
I have no way of knowing for certain but I suspect this is the subplot that was created when they decided to split the book. I doubt that Lara was suppose to be involved at all. I can see Harry dragging a half dead Thomas to the island to save his life, but Lara coming along for the ride feels contrived. ?shrug?
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I have no way of knowing for certain but I suspect this is the subplot that was created when they decided to split the book. I doubt that Lara was suppose to be involved at all. I can see Harry dragging a half dead Thomas to the island to save his life, but Lara coming along for the ride feels contrived. ?shrug?
If it was, I think it only confused things. However one thing it did do was give Harry a reason to
to back to the island to retrieve a couple of things.
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No, I think the whole idea was having them fight in the island, so Lara has a grudge and a whole lot of knowledge about Harry's power.
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No, I think the whole idea was having them fight in the island, so Lara has a grudge and a whole lot of knowledge about Harry's power.
Which when you think about it shouldn't have happened if Lara had asked more questions and if Harry had explained better.
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Yes, but I insist, is not that they have much time. She chose to stay with Thomas and help him instead of chat with anyone.
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Yes, but I insist, is not that they have much time. She chose to stay with Thomas and help him instead of chat with anyone.
Off page before the rescue or even on page, Harry could have explained and Lara should have asked more questions. It is part of planning, what good is grabbing Thomas unless they had a good plan for keeping him safe from capture?
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Again, she chose to stay with Thomas, not chatting. She trusted Harry, that is why after what happened she feels so mad. She feels betrayed.
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I don't think she was starving, but typically when someone is out of juice, they're exhausted and not capable of fighting/playing/continuing. Which strikes me as odd given her presumed power level as White Queen.
I am not sure Lara is as personally/magically powerful as her political position suggests. To some extent that's true of the White Court overall, but more so in Lara's case. She hit Lord Raith when he was greatly weakened -- and a few years later, WN wiped out much of the leadership of the other White Court Houses.
I don't think Lara was the strongest WCV supernaturally, at least before WN -- and even now, Thomas (when uninjured and feeding) might be at least as strong.
On the other hand, even the "backwash" of Lara's full-power emotion-blast at the end of BR is pretty overwhelming. But Harry's never been hit by an equivalent blast from Thomas or a top-end Skavis or Malvora (except Vitto -- who was stronger, but Outsider-boosted so not comparable), so we can't compare.
EDIT: forgot about Vitto's attack
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Again, she chose to stay with Thomas, not chatting. She trusted Harry, that is why after what happened she feels so mad. She feels betrayed.
Yes, but she was there when the whole escape etc was planned. Thomas was still under wraps, that was the time to ask questions and make sure there was no misunderstanding..
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I don't know if at that moment the plan was to go to the island.
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Topping Thomas off and taking him to a place where he can be kept alive an not located is a great plan. Then there is an emp and they have to skip the topping off.
It is not out of character for any wizard not to explain how exactly they are going to do the magic stuff and Harry has always been good at keeping that vague.
I think Lara is really really really far from being papa wraith. She can beat him when he has been starved for 30? years. Imagine her or Thomas going without feeding at all for just one year. As I remember Papa wraith was immune to magic and could rip the life from someone with a kiss.
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I am not sure Lara is as personally/magically powerful as her political position suggests. To some extent that's true of the White Court overall, but more so in Lara's case. She hit Lord Raith when he was greatly weakened -- and a few years later, WN wiped out much of the leadership of the other White Court Houses.
I don't think Lara was the strongest WCV supernaturally, at least before WN -- and even now, Thomas (when uninjured and feeding) might be at least as strong.
On the other hand, even the "backwash" of Lara's full-power emotion-blast at the end of BR is pretty overwhelming. But Harry's never been hit by an equivalent blast from Thomas or a top-end Skavis or Malvora (except Vitto -- who was stronger, but Outsider-boosted so not comparable), so we can't compare.
EDIT: forgot about Vitto's attack
I don't think Lara would gain power through worship or title or other indirect means, but we've heard about how the Wamps have been been expanding their influence ever since she took over. She clearly strategizing for the future, but not increasing her own power level seems like an odd failure on her part while she's doing all this other work.
Maybe she's taking a gentler approach than her father. Maybe she's feeding a little bit from a lot of people rather than dropping dead bodies left and right, and that decreases her intake.
It just seems odd to me for her to be so weak.
Topping Thomas off and taking him to a place where he can be kept alive an not located is a great plan. Then there is an emp and they have to skip the topping off.
It is not out of character for any wizard not to explain how exactly they are going to do the magic stuff and Harry has always been good at keeping that vague.
I think Lara is really really really far from being papa wraith. She can beat him when he has been starved for 30? years. Imagine her or Thomas going without feeding at all for just one year. As I remember Papa wraith was immune to magic and could rip the life from someone with a kiss.
But I guessi expect her to have felt a need to match her father's power level pre-curse as a prerequisite to the position she holds.
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I don't know if at that moment the plan was to go to the island.
At the very least Harry told her he could place Thomas somewhere were he'd be safe and not tracked... And she never asked where or how?
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Last time she was on the island Harry wasn't officially Warden.
I don't know what that means.
Did Lara know what the island is and how it is supposed to work?
For me; the real question is, Why didn't Lara ask Harry specific questions about his plan to keep Thomas safe and hidden.
Harry and Lara didn't know Thomas was starving when they planned the rescue. From the way Lara talked, it sounded like she didn't expect Thomas to be able to recover.
The Skin Walker used this to torture Thomas. The process was to torture Thomas to the point of death and then feed him.
The situations can be distinguished. The Skin Walker knew what it was doing. It was torturing him to the point he could recover if he fed. It wasn't trying to kill him.
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I don't know what that means.
It means that as of Turn Coat he could feel everything that went on on the island.. However not until Cold Days, did he understand that he could manipulate it and more to the point if he wanted,
ask Alfred to grab Mab and throw her in the slammer, and it was possible.
Since Lara didn't witness any of that in Turn Coat or was there in Cold Days, she wouldn't know any of the above.
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Y'know what really confused me about Lara in PT?
The conversation at the end with Harry where she's like "I cannot comprehend your motives here". Bitch, they are literally the same as yours, He wants to save his fucking brother, it's not that goddamn hard.
Like, how does she think he's doing this to hold one over on her? Nobody that knows anything about Harry would buy that bluff. "Yes I, Harry Dresden, will totally hold my only brother's life as a hostage".
How are we supposed to believe there is any confusion here?!?!?
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I totally agree with TCF (also, hi! I haven't seen in a while, I don't even know if you visited your birthday thread)
I drifted away after the Berserk like release schedule kicked in. Nice to see you're still around.
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Y'know what really confused me about Lara in PT?
The conversation at the end with Harry where she's like "I cannot comprehend your motives here". Bitch, they are literally the same as yours, He wants to save his fucking brother, it's not that goddamn hard.
Like, how does she think he's doing this to hold one over on her? Nobody that knows anything about Harry would buy that bluff. "Yes I, Harry Dresden, will totally hold my only brother's life as a hostage".
How are we supposed to believe there is any confusion here?!?!?
It's like the conversation with Mab at the end of Cold Days, where she tells him how impressed she is with how he groomed and manipulated Molly in ways he totally hadn't intended. He did all those things, but that wasn't how he was thinking about it. He was always trying to do the right thing.
Lara also loves her brother, but she is delighted to use him as a lever against Harry. She assumes that Harry is the same -- that he loves his brother, and will ruthlessly use him as a lever against Lara anyway. (In truth, we could come up with several examples of him actually doing so -- or at least superficially doing so because "that's how you talk to predators" or something like that.)
We all see other people by using our own brain to model their behavior. This leads people to "project" their own tendencies onto others. The con-man believes that no one can ever be trusted, while trustworthy folk fall for the con precisely because they are trustworthy.
You might expect a master manipulator like Lara to be better at understanding very different human motives, but it's a classic old trope -- the Devil understanding all of humanity's dark motivations and being totally flummoxed when we do things out of selfless love.
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It means that as of Turn Coat he could feel everything that went on on the island.. However not until Cold Days, did he understand that he could manipulate it and more to the point if he wanted,
ask Alfred to grab Mab and throw her in the slammer, and it was possible.
Since Lara didn't witness any of that in Turn Coat or was there in Cold Days, she wouldn't know any of the above.
I guess your word choice of officially confused me because he was Warden the moment he bonded with Alfred. He just didn't know it yet. He didn't really understand it until some point after CD. It seemed to me that you were disagreeing with me that Lara wouldn't know that Harry's power on the island was much more than it had been.
She assumes that Harry is the same -- that he loves his brother, and will ruthlessly use him as a lever against Lara anyway.
If you recall from DB, Harry has ruthlessly risked the secret that Thomas is his brother when Harry blackmailed the leader of the White Court by proxy. From Lara's perspective, Harry has played her game.
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She clearly strategizing for the future, but not increasing her own power level seems like an odd failure on her part while she's doing all this other work.
I'm sure she's well-fed, and at about 100% of her upper-limit potential, but I don't think she can really increase it past that.
Just like human physical strength. People can get stronger by working out, but eventually they hit an upper limit.
But I guessi expect her to have felt a need to match her father's power level pre-curse as a prerequisite to the position she holds.
She doesn't really need it. She took down Lord Raith when he was vastly weakened, and a few years later basically all the potential challengers got killed (in WN and TC).
She's the strongest living Whampire, except maybe Thomas, who won't challenge her for leadership.
And Lara is really enormously powerful. If she can move mortal military forces around and hire Valkyries, her relative *personal* weakness (compared to say PT-era Harry or a powerful Blampire; she's still superhuman) isn't that relevant.
Just... charging somebody with a knife is about her weakest area. That's why it seemed so odd.
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I'm sure she's well-fed, and at about 100% of her upper-limit potential, but I don't think she can really increase it past that.
Just like human physical strength. People can get stronger by working out, but eventually they hit an upper limit.
She doesn't really need it. She took down Lord Raith when he was vastly weakened, and a few years later basically all the potential challengers got killed (in WN and TC).
She's the strongest living Whampire, except maybe Thomas, who won't challenge her for leadership.
And Lara is really enormously powerful. If she can move mortal military forces around and hire Valkyries, her relative *personal* weakness (compared to say PT-era Harry or a powerful Blampire; she's still superhuman) isn't that relevant.
Just... charging somebody with a knife is about her weakest area. That's why it seemed so odd.
But that's what I'm saying. Her allowing herself to have a weak spot is surprising to me.
Even if she does have a reservoir limit, I'm struggling to believe that her reservoir is so low. She fed Thomas for an hour and it wasn't enough to put a dent in his hunger, but it drained her?
And if it is that low, then I would expect her to find ways around it.
If Harry can create rings that store kinetic energy, and can create a belt buckle that will store energy to increase his physical attributes, and Lara has seen at least some of those in action, then I would honestly expect her to find a contractor to help her find a way to have an additional reservoir, artificial or not, to supplement her.
Seeing her flail helplessly after nursing Thomas for an hour was just sad and disappointing.
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But that's what I'm saying. Her allowing herself to have a weak spot is surprising to me.
It's only "allowing" herself if she has a choice. I doubt if she does. She can't just give herself new powers without paying a cost that would be unacceptable to her - Lara wants to be in charge, not to be in debt/in thrall to some other power (like a Fallen in a Denarian coin). Working with Odin/Monoc Securities is just a business relationship, she can still be in charge of her own.
Even if she does have a reservoir limit, I'm struggling to believe that her reservoir is so low. She fed Thomas for an hour and it wasn't enough to put a dent in his hunger, but it drained her?
Thomas was really damaged, enough to be non-functional/near-death.
If Thomas's Hunger is at least as strong as hers, she probably couldn't transfer enough energy to get him back to normal without reducing herself to non-functional/near-death, even if it was a 100% efficient transfer.
And it might not be efficient, because Thomas was too out of it to really feed - and the White Court probably aren't set up to give energy away (as somebody else pointed out).
If Harry can create rings that store kinetic energy, and can create a belt buckle that will store energy to increase his physical attributes, and Lara has seen at least some of those in action, then I would honestly expect her to find a contractor to help her find a way to have an additional reservoir, artificial or not, to supplement her.
Do we know that this would actually work?
The kind of energy the White Court feed on seems more personal and less "magic physics" than what Harry uses, it might not be able to just be stored in an inanimate battery.
Otherwise Harry could just have done a spell to "top up" Thomas... with time to do thaumaturgy, he could probably draw much more energy than Lara could provide. Since Lara didn't suggest that, I think it probably takes feeding on a living being.
I don't think the Whampires can just get out of their inherent limitations that way, any more than the most powerful Rampires or Blampires could avoid drinking blood.
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It's only "allowing" herself if she has a choice. I doubt if she does. She can't just give herself new powers without paying a cost that would be unacceptable to her - Lara wants to be in charge, not to be in debt/in thrall to some other power (like a Fallen in a Denarian coin). Working with Odin/Monoc Securities is just a business relationship, she can still be in charge of her own.
Thomas was really damaged, enough to be non-functional/near-death.
If Thomas's Hunger is at least as strong as hers, she probably couldn't transfer enough energy to get him back to normal without reducing herself to non-functional/near-death, even if it was a 100% efficient transfer.
And it might not be efficient, because Thomas was too out of it to really feed - and the White Court probably aren't set up to give energy away (as somebody else pointed out).
Do we know that this would actually work?
The kind of energy the White Court feed on seems more personal and less "magic physics" than what Harry uses, it might not be able to just be stored in an inanimate battery.
Otherwise Harry could just have done a spell to "top up" Thomas... with time to do thaumaturgy, he could probably draw much more energy than Lara could provide. Since Lara didn't suggest that, I think it probably takes feeding on a living being.
I don't think the Whampires can just get out of their inherent limitations that way, any more than the most powerful Rampires or Blampires could avoid drinking blood.
She wouldn't have to sell her soul. She'd have to trade like she did with Mab, or buy like she did with Monoc.
As for the backup reservoir, I'm not saying it'd be easy to make on the fly, which is the only way Harry ever makes anything. But given that we've seen several sorts of magic power, as well as soul power and love power, be permanently or extendedly imbued into objects, it stands to reason that there should be a way to artificially store lust power as well.
Theoretically it wouldn't have to be that much different than what Harry already did. The belt buckle wasn't kinetic energy. It was a magic reservoir.
I touched my left hand to my belt buckle and whispered, “Fortius.”
Power rushed into the pit of my stomach, a sudden tide of hot, living energy, nitrous for the body, mind, and soul. Raw life radiated out into my bones, running riot through my limbs. My confusion and weariness and pain vanished as swiftly as darkness before the sunrise.
This was no simple adrenaline boost, either, though that was a part of it. Call it chi or mana or one of thousand other names for it—it was pure magic, the very essence of life energy itself. It poured into me from the reservoir I’d created in the silver of the buckle. My heart suddenly overflowed with excitement, my thoughts with hope, confidence, and eager anticipation, and if I had a personal soundtrack to my life it would have been playing Ode to Joy while a stadium of Harry fans did the wave. It was all I could do to stop myself from bursting into laughter or song.
If Harry, an amateur wizard in his twenties with little to no formal training, can manage to do that, then I don't see a problem with an older, wiser with wizard or mage or Monoc contractor doing something similar, but with a focus on storing a supply of lust energy. It could just take a little from each feeding to keep it topped off.
And honestly, I could see where she might take it a step further. Give a white pearl or diamond or opal to every Raith that will be their personal reservoir, and link them together so her larger gem would get a slice from each feeding. Then she could strengthen her own people and gain power from them.
It'd just be combining things we've already seen in the series.
As for it having to be from a living being, we know magic comes from living beings, but can be stored in inanimate objects. And we've seen a wamp feed on energy from another now, sans the sex, so we know it doesn't have to be just that for Raiths. Even if there's an inherent loss in storing and tapping, it'd be better than just shrugging at the idea that she'd find herself physically challenged to the point that she'd be tapped out and helpless.
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She wouldn't have to sell her soul. She'd have to trade like she did with Mab, or buy like she did with Monoc.
Trading favors is one thing, the Fae do that all the time. Hiring mercenaries likewise. But the only ways we've seen to get a big power upgrade beyond your "basic type of supernatural being" involve a lot deeper commitment or transform you - becoming Summer or Winter Knight, taking up a Denarian coin, performing an ascension rite/Darkhallow. That sort of thing.
Lord Raith probably did something of this sort, making some kind of Outsider pact with HWWB to get his anti-magic shield. Obviously we don't have any details though...
I don't think that this is a limitation that could be gotten around with equipment, or Harry would have done something like it for Thomas. The White Court's need to feed on life force is pretty fundamental. It would take a radical transformation of Lara's nature IMO.
If Harry, an amateur wizard in his twenties with little to no formal training, can manage to do that, then I don't see a problem with an older, wiser with wizard or mage or Monoc contractor doing something similar, but with a focus on storing a supply of lust energy. It could just take a little from each feeding to keep it topped off.
Only if "lust energy" can be stored in that way. I don't think it can.
Or, rather, I think there isn't really any such thing as "lust energy" in the Dresdenverse. I think the White Court are using emotions as a conduit to draw life force energy. (The Houses can switch over -- Madrigal Raith learned to feed from fear. So it's not locked specifically into lust, despair, or whatever.)
It seems to be a more general process in the Dresdenverse - the phobophages/fetches from PG do something similar, for example.
As for it having to be from a living being, we know magic comes from living beings, but can be stored in inanimate objects. And we've seen a wamp feed on energy from another now, sans the sex, so we know it doesn't have to be just that for Raiths.
I think the problem isn't the kind of energy. It's the access to it, the "conduit", which requires emotions. An enchanted item doesn't have emotions, so I don't think the White Court's Hunger could access energy from it.
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Trading favors is one thing, the Fae do that all the time. Hiring mercenaries likewise. But the only ways we've seen to get a big power upgrade beyond your "basic type of supernatural being" involve a lot deeper commitment or transform you - becoming Summer or Winter Knight, taking up a Denarian coin, performing an ascension rite/Darkhallow. That sort of thing.
Lord Raith probably did something of this sort, making some kind of Outsider pact with HWWB to get his anti-magic shield. Obviously we don't have any details though...
I don't think that this is a limitation that could be gotten around with equipment, or Harry would have done something like it for Thomas. The White Court's need to feed on life force is pretty fundamental. It would take a radical transformation of Lara's nature IMO.
Only if "lust energy" can be stored in that way. I don't think it can.
Or, rather, I think there isn't really any such thing as "lust energy" in the Dresdenverse. I think the White Court are using emotions as a conduit to draw life force energy. (The Houses can switch over -- Madrigal Raith learned to feed from fear. So it's not locked specifically into lust, despair, or whatever.)
It seems to be a more general process in the Dresdenverse - the phobophages/fetches from PG do something similar, for example.
I think the problem isn't the kind of energy. It's the access to it, the "conduit", which requires emotions. An enchanted item doesn't have emotions, so I don't think the White Court's Hunger could access energy from it.
In SF Harry describes the lake house as being saturated in lust and fear and hate due to the magics worked there, because of the method used to empower the drug. Even unintentionally, emotional energy is imbued in a thing.
And in the scene I quoted from BR, the belt buckle energy invokes an emotional response in Harry.
I haven't seen anything that would suggest it isn't possible, other than 'we haven't seen it be done'.
And remember, the method proposed would be reducing the amount absorbed during the feeding, which is not something that your typical Wamp would want to do, and not something that would help Thomas given his already limited feeding restrictions (doesn't kill, only sips).
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But on another line of thought... what if there's something wrong with Lara?
There are a lot of highly suspicious things about Thomas in PT. To the point that I'd tend to think that "Thomas" is not actually Thomas, and he's conveniently (posing as?*) too beat up to talk so Harry can't tell that he doesn't have Thomas's personality or knowledge.
*I think a Goodman Grey-level shapeshifter could fake that without actually being physically impaired.
But he's able to take energy from Lara, and one would think Lara would notice something 'off' - even if the physical duplication was perfect, surely the White Court vampire powers wouldn't duplicate exactly (sure, a naagloshii or fetch can feed on fear, so the power may be vaguely similar, but...)
But - if Lara is "mind-whammied" by fake-Thomas, we can't necessarily know that her report of what happened is accurate. And that might also lead her to attack Harry physically when she should have known that was a near-certain loss one way or another (even without Demonreach).
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What makes me wonder about Lara is why she uses any of the favours. It seems to me she could have achieved both things without them. I mean how would Harry not join the rescue of his brother? Or introduce her to someone if it would aid in that. At least she could easily have gotten all the help she needed with one favour.
Maybe there is some other reason she needed Harry to introduce her to Christos and Etri?
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Agree with that.
Vultur, I simply don't think that Thomas encasing would have worked if that was not his name. Also, Alfred called him "kin" with Harry and I am sure he would have known if he was not Thomas. Also, Harry himself would have felt something when probing him mind in Demonreach.
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Re: Lara and favors...
That was really suspicious. It makes me think she and Mab are in cahoots, likely with Marcone as well (the gaping security flaw and using Harry's lab as the prison cell are pretty big cluebats). Lara got three favors, perhaps with an understanding about what she'd be using them for?
And remember that the introduction really did pay off -- she might have sweet-talked Christos without it, but Harry vouched for her to Etri and that seemed to make a difference.
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But on another line of thought... what if there's something wrong with Lara?
Lara goes from saying there is nothing she can do, then the next time she's on page, everything's changed because she has a plan? Suspicious right there.
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Lara goes from saying there is nothing she can do, then the next time she's on page, everything's changed because she has a plan? Suspicious right there.
Happened to me a few times. You tell someone that nothing can be done and then you start thinking again and get back.
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Vultur, I simply don't think that Thomas encasing would have worked if that was not his name.
Certainly possible. I'm not that convinced that Thomas is fake. But it does seem suspicious.
And it might - sort of - be Thomas, and still be fake in another sense. Harry was able to cast spells through his glamour-double in PT, and feel what it felt. If that was a hint that Thomas is "fake"...
I am not sure how good Alfred would be at spotting this type of deception, he's not really meant to deal with beings on a mortal level, except his bond to his Warden.
Also, Harry himself would have felt something when probing him mind in Demonreach.
He's unconscious then, so I'm not sure that tells us much.
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Happened to me a few times. You tell someone that nothing can be done and then you start thinking again and get back.
Sure, but something is definitely up with someone.
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A Thomas projection could be possible, I think, but I don't think he is not Thomas. And I meant that I believe Alfred and Harry would have felt if a shape shifter was involved.
Lara goes from saying there is nothing she can do, then the next time she's on page, everything's changed because she has a plan? Suspicious right there.
I found that very suspicious too! And the favors too, specially the first one. I thought that literary speaking it was more useful to let us readers know how "owning a favor" feels. But from in character, I see no reason for Lara to do that. She just needed to talk a little with Harry, he would do it. And she won't need to spend a favor. Imagine how different things would have been if Lara still had a favor when they arrive to Demonreach.
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Yep.
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Anyone find it odd that just before Harry returns to the embassy compound, Lara pops up in the back of his car with Mab wanting to cash in on the three favors owed the White Court?
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Not odd per se. I though Mab was planning something. And perhaps Lara herself had plans for the Talks that she changed due to what happened with Thomas.
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Not odd per se. I though Mab was planning something. And perhaps Lara herself had plans for the Talks that she changed due to what happened with Thomas.
Oh the timing is very odd, as in suspicious that she and Mab indeed had planned something. Thomas got dragged into it, perhaps to protect Justine. Pulling Harry into it to execute whatever "favor" owed to Lara was insurance that Thomas would survive, so she agreed to it. As far as I know there are no rules about White Court Vamps lying, so she doesn't have to come clean to Harry about what really is going on. What she hadn't planned on was perhaps how badly injured Thomas would be or that Harry would tuck him away in a cell on Demonreach. This would account for her reaction, she realized in that moment that both she and Thomas were being used as pawns in Mab's four dimensional chess game..
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Yes, I agree with you
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Bad writing.
So - Lara just outright charges Harry with a knife?
Yeah, I know, "people are irrational about family" is one of the themes of the book. But Lara's White Court. She's been surviving in a really deadly society for a long time. She really ought to be more controlled than that.
Even without Demonreach, there wasn't much chance of that working out for her.
She was there in WN. She's seen what happens when a White Court vampire goes up against a combat-capable wizard; it ain't good for the vampire. Sure, she had Valkyrie backup, but Harry could have fried or frozen her just as quickly as he told the island to grab her - before Freydis could have done anything.
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More bad writing
Anyone find it odd that just before Harry returns to the embassy compound, Lara pops up in the back of his car with Mab wanting to cash in on the three favors owed the White Court?
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On the what of it is not Thomas, but a shape shifter; I don't think it is the case, but if it is that person is really hardcore. Facing being imprisoned forever and not flinching takes a lot of nerve.
Also, I think Jim said once that Grey could probably become Harry to a degree that he could use some or all of his wizard powers, bit that the transformation would be so complete that Grey would effectively be gone forever. Of course only Lara knows if that is the case, since she fed him and could have faked that. Then the charge would be to uphold the illusion.
With that being said, I don't think it is odd that she charges him. It seems a fair amount of people on the forums reasons that if you get to a certain position of power and responsibility all your actions will be well reasoned out and emotions will never affect that reasoning. So far the only ones in the series who seems to live up to that inhuman ideal are (suprise) the ones that are not human in any way. I guess the angels are the best, maybe only, example.
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It seems a fair amount of people on the forums reasons that if you get to a certain position of power and responsibility all your actions will be well reasoned out and emotions will never affect that reasoning.
Not characters in general, but Lara specifically. Previously in the series she's been quite a bit colder and more controlled than she seems in this book. Not just the knife thing... she seems less in control of her Hunger, too.
And at one point in BR she seems ready to kill Thomas (she does shoot him)... I don't totally buy that she'd take such an extreme risk for him, or for anyone.
Even if Thomas really is Thomas*, something is odd with Lara. It almost reminds me of the way Harry was being affected by Lasciel's coin...
*and I'm leaning less toward the "fake Thomas" idea than I was a week ago, but mostly for "story" reasons; it seems like the emotional impact of this book would mostly have been a fake-out if that's the case.
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Even if Thomas really is Thomas*, something is odd with Lara. It almost reminds me of the way Harry was being affected by Lasciel's coin...
Yes, something odd, but I doubt it has anything to do with a coin. I am convinced that there was some double dealing going on and Mab is behind it. That is why she was granting the payment of favors in advance, and just what the favors were were unclear.
*and I'm leaning less toward the "fake Thomas" idea than I was a week ago, but mostly for "story" reasons; it seems like the emotional impact of this book would mostly have been a fake-out if that's the case.
I never thought Thomas was a fake, I agree that Alfred would have spotted it even if Harry missed it.
I still think Lara's violent reaction on the island came from the realization that both she and Thomas were used by Mab as pawns in her four dimensional chess game. I think one of the favors granted by Mab was the safety of Thomas if he pulled it off, she didn't anticipate that he'd be thrown half dead in stasis in a cell on Demonreach. Mab would simply say, "you wanted him safe, he is safe." Lara would also think Harry was in on that one. Thomas agreed to do whatever to keep Justine safe.
Perhaps Mab promised to keep the baby Hunger asleep so it couldn't feed off of Justine.
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Lara was always in control because her hunger was always well fed.
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Lara was always in control because her hunger was always well fed.
Sure, but then why is she already not totally in control earlier in the book, before she gives energy to Thomas?
I mean, it's been established since BR that when the White Court are really hurt or really low on energy they can lose control. But Lara not being 100% in control when everything is going well seems very unlike her.
Yes, something odd, but I doubt it has anything to do with a coin.
Oh, it's not necessarily a Fallen as the source - but I think the way she is acting is kind of reminiscent of Harry under Lash's influence, and maybe implies some sort of external influence.
I am convinced that there was some double dealing going on and Mab is behind it. That is why she was granting the payment of favors in advance, and just what the favors were were unclear.
Oh definitely. I'm kind of thinking Mab might have done something to Lara's mind, like she did to Harry in SmF. That might even have been the first favor - maybe Lara needs to not know something during the talks, or something of that sort.
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I think it was Thomas. He was very likely threatened with them going after Justine. It may have been a fake Thomas killing the Svaltalf, escaping and real Thomas being clueless and captured by the Svaltalves while visiting Harry's place.
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I think it was Thomas. He was very likely threatened with them going after Justine. It may have been a fake Thomas killing the Svaltalf, escaping and real Thomas being clueless and captured by the Svaltalves while visiting Harry's place.
Now that is possible, but still a stretch I think.
Sure, but then why is she already not totally in control earlier in the book, before she gives energy to Thomas?
Because she feels guilty as hell because it was her who talked Thomas into pulling off the attempt in the first place. That is why she called in the favors owed by the Winter Court before this went down as an insurance policy that Thomas could come out okay.. That is why she totally flipped out when she found out Harry had Alfred put Thomas on ice.
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Because she feels guilty as hell because it was her who talked Thomas into pulling off the attempt in the first place.
I guess that's possible, but that still seems... overly emotion-driven, for Lara. She apparently intended to kill Thomas at one point in BR.
That is why she called in the favors owed by the Winter Court before this went down as an insurance policy that Thomas could come out okay
It seems like Mab and Lara are talking to Harry about the favors while the attack is happening, or immediately thereafter. Would Lara have had time to find out what had happened and go contact Mab?
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I guess that's possible, but that still seems... overly emotion-driven, for Lara. She apparently intended to kill Thomas at one point in BR.
It seems like Mab and Lara are talking to Harry about the favors while the attack is happening, or immediately thereafter. Would Lara have had time to find out what had happened and go contact Mab?
Possibly while in progress. Yeah, I find it hard that she'd have the time as well. But here is the thing, even if she owes Lara favors, why would Mab jeopardize her Accords or the talks?
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Lara not being 100% in control when everything is going well seems very unlike her.
When was everything going well? It also might have to do with her being sweet on Harry. Susan couldn't separate her "hungers" for Harry, and Thomas can't with Justine.
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When was everything going well?
Well, she talks about not being in total control of her hunger at the talks, well before she gives most of her energy to Thomas. She should be well-fed then and therefore not have any control issues.
TC makes kind of a big deal about how some of the Whampires are highly controlled (like Lara) and some aren't (like Madeline).
It also might have to do with her being sweet on Harry. Susan couldn't separate her "hungers" for Harry, and Thomas can't with Justine.
This is possible... but that also seems new. Has Lara developed feelings for Harry since the last time we saw them interacting? If so, is that natural, or is it like the Luccio situation in SmF/TC?
But here is the thing, even if she owes Lara favors, why would Mab jeopardize her Accords or the talks?
Oh, I don't think she really did. I think Mab is "repaying" the favors in a way that benefits Mab/Winter.
I don't think the Accords are really being jeopardized. By my understanding, if Mab loans Harry to Lara to repay a favor, Harry is then acting as Lara's agent. So the White Court, not Winter, would be responsible to the svartalves under the Accords. Does Mab care if the White Court and the svartalves go to war? The White Council/Red Court war didn't seem to trouble her.
The talks, maybe, but I doubt the svartalves really have the power to ruin the talks. They could walk out, but everyone else could still come to an agreement. And the svartalves have already rejected an agreement with the Fomor (in "Bombshells") so I don't think they really have much negotiating power in this case. The svartalves are super-crafters, but not a very militant power.
So I don't think Mab is really risking all that much, and I think she already knew what Lara was going to do with the favors. (And I kind of think she arranged for Thomas to be put in a place where Harry could rescue him.)
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So I don't think Mab is really risking all that much, and I think she already knew what Lara was going to do with the favors. (And I kind of think she arranged for Thomas to be put in a place where Harry could rescue him.)
Which says the whole thing is part of Mab's four dimensional chess match, much like Skin Game.. Give up the Grail, but her Knight gains the rest of the relics.. That is why Lara became so unglued on the island, she realized she and Thomas had been set up and she thought Harry was in on it.
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Which says the whole thing is part of Mab's four dimensional chess match, much like Skin Game.. Give up the Grail, but her Knight gains the rest of the relics.. That is why Lara became so unglued on the island, she realized she and Thomas had been set up and she thought Harry was in on it.
I basically agree.
My question is more, is it just Lara's realization, or has she actually been mind-manipulated?
She seems noticeably more emotional/less controlled in this book than in previous appearances (even before they arrive on Demonreach). But there could be other reasons for that (maybe Justine's pregnancy has larger implications for the White Court than we realize; maybe she really is fighting a genuine attraction to Harry. Who knows.)
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My guess is the first favor is that she gets Harry once Mab is done with him. So she's toying with her food- the true love doesn't matter, etc.
Then Harry snags Thomas. No Harry, no Thomas. And she's out of favors.
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My guess is the first favor is that she gets Harry once Mab is done with him. So she's toying with ger food- the true love doesn't matter, etc.
Then Harry snags Thomas. No Harry, no Thomas. And she's out of favors.
And now she has to protect Harry. Harry did not see that coming but Mab probably did ;D
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And now she has to protect Harry. Harry did not see that coming but Mab probably did ;D
Yes, but none of this is getting to the bottom of all of this in the first place.. What was the motivation behind Thomas suddenly turning into an assassin?
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My guess is the first favor is that she gets Harry once Mab is done with him. So she's toying with her food- the true love doesn't matter, etc.
Then Harry snags Thomas. No Harry, no Thomas. And she's out of favors.
I don't think Mab can "give" Harry to Lara, so I still believe the first favor is something different.
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Yes, but none of this is getting to the bottom of all of this in the first place.. What was the motivation behind Thomas suddenly turning into an assassin?
In chapter one, after Thomas tells Harry about the pregnancy, Harry says he shouldn't ignore/hide/not talk about the vampire side of his nature. Thomas then says:
"Probably. I have a solution in mind." he said. "I'll work on it. Good enough?"
A solution to what? Justine surviving the pregnancy? Or, given the context, maybe a way to get rid of the Hunger?
I think Thomas made some kind of supernatural deal and his attack was his side of it. (And killing Etri wasn't necessarily the real goal - it could have been to disrupt the talks, or to kill Austri, or even specifically to distract Harry and/or Lara and Freydis from something else happening.)
Given Mab's planning/scheming capacities, I think she knows what Lara is going to use the favors for and expects to get something out of it. So maybe Thomas' action helped Winter. (Austri was Nemfected? Mab needs to distract Harry from something that she's doing that would get him killed intervening?)
That doesn't necessarily mean Thomas made a deal with Mab, though it could. It could be somebody else but Mab knows about it and is manipulating it to work out in her favor.
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My guess is the first favor is that she gets Harry once Mab is done with him.
Mab's never going to be done with him while Harry lives, IMO. (At least not by choice: I don't expect Mab to survive the series.) Mab made a really big deal out of him becoming Winter Knight for a reason.
I mean, maybe after the BAT, but I kind of doubt it.
And I don't think that would work out very well for Lara anyway. Even if Harry was unable to defend himself because of the Faerie favor rules, killing or enslaving Harry would probably invite a lot of revenge. At the very least, it draws her into conflict with Thomas; at worst, Eb drops a satellite/meteor/etc on her.
Lara's smart enough not to eat people who have friends/family powerful enough to kill her.
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In chapter one, after Thomas tells Harry about the pregnancy, Harry says he shouldn't ignore/hide/not talk about the vampire side of his nature. Thomas then says:."Probably. I have a solution in mind." he said. "I'll work on it. Good enough?"
1] He has already made a bargain with someone who can save Justine from the Hunger.
2] He is going to talk her into aborting..
3] He has no solution, but he wanted to placate Harry and shut him up because the subject was
too painful for him.
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One thing that seems a bit odd to me was that Mab threatened Lara not to eat Harry. But maybe that was just normal winter marking territory and not Mab protecting Harry.
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One thing that seems a bit odd to me was that Mab threatened Lara not to eat Harry. But maybe that was just normal winter marking territory and not Mab protecting Harry.
Practically speaking, Mab needs her Winter Knight. She doesn't need him fed upon until death, nor does she need him made into pleasure slave. She needs Harry, even if he is a pain in her ass, to have all his wits about him, hence the warning.
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Just take it literally. The knight is part of her household so why would Mab accept Lara eating Harry when Harry was sent to help Lara? That would not reflect well on Mab.
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Well, she talks about not being in total control of her hunger at the talks, well before she gives most of her energy to Thomas. She should be well-fed then and therefore not have any control issues.
Being well fed doesn't mean all is well. After her first scene, her brother's set to be executed. I wouldn't call that "all's well." She's bound to be emotional.
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I was just thinking that Nic was a lot more likely to damage her knight that Lara, but he did not get a warning. Then again the situation was of course very different. I just think it is the first time she has ever warned anyone that she will be angry if they did something bad to Harry.
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I was just thinking that Nic was a lot more likely to damage her knight that Lara, but he did not get a warning. Then again the situation was of course very different. I just think it is the first time she has ever warned anyone that she will be angry if they did something bad to Harry.
Lara is a fellow member of the accords and Mab and Lara are allied. Mab does not want Lara to betray her because that would create unwelcome complications and Lara does not want to betray Mab for obvious reasons. Nicodemus betraying Harry too early is no problem for Mab and might give Harry an opportunity to do something.
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I just think it is the first time she has ever warned anyone that she will be angry if they did something bad to Harry.
I think so. But I think part of the issue here is that Nic's favor was pre-specified (help steal the Holy Grail), whereas Lara got two unspecified favors. So without Mab doing this, Lara could have made one of her favors "let me control your mind/consume your life energy" and the Mantle would impede Harry fighting back, I think.
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Remember Mab did some caveats too. "Nothing you wouldn't ask me" and all that.
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Remember Mab did some caveats too. "Nothing you wouldn't ask me" and all that.
Yeah, exactly. Mab had to be a lot more careful in this case because the favors were open-ended.
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That is a good point and makes good sense :-)
I love that she cast herself as the bears and Lara as Goldilocks in her threat :-D (I did not get when reading the book, only thinking it over afterwards)
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I did get it when reading the book but I actually found it weird. Specially because Goldilocks is not strictly a fairy tale, which would have been more understandable coming from Mab.
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One thing that seems a bit odd to me was that Mab threatened Lara not to eat Harry. But maybe that was just normal winter marking territory and not Mab protecting Harry.
That's Mab telling Lara that she's loaning a tool, not feeding her dinner.
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I think Lara’s problem is that she desperately wants to be a mother, but I suspect female Whamps are even less fertile than the males, and the two men she would consider as father material are the two men who won’t sleep with her.
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That could actually be a pretty good point. They won't be with her, but are both with Mab instead.
Just a thought, it would not really have helped Lara to have a favour left at demonreach. When Harry had imprisoned Thomas, what would she do with it? Ask him to take him out and let him die on the beach? She could have avoided Harry using Thomas as leverage after the Fomor fight, but the main advantage of the leverage would be during the Fomor fight anyway.
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But both are as regards their free will, admittedly Harry was backed into a corner.
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From a, I want that man to be my man, point of view, that he has with his own free will become someone else's man does not make it any better (I think)
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I did get it when reading the book but I actually found it weird. Specially because Goldilocks is not strictly a fairy tale, which would have been more understandable coming from Mab.
I've always thought of it as a fairy tale. I think that's a common perspective. "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" (originally titled "The Story of the Three Bears") is a British 19th-century fairy tale of which three versions exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldilocks_and_the_Three_Bears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldilocks_and_the_Three_Bears). I've never thought of them as fairies, fae, small folk, or elves. I wouldn't have really thought of the billy goats gruff as fairies either. Now we have to consider talking bears that like porridge and have furniture into our "theories."
I think Lara’s problem is that she desperately wants to be a mother, but I suspect female Whamps are even less fertile than the males, and the two men she would consider as father material are the two men who won’t sleep with her.
+1
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Yep, with "strictly a fairy tale" I meant that there is not an actual fairy present in the story.