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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on July 20, 2020, 01:59:35 AM
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The Hounds show up seemingly attacking Harry and Eb but who were they really after?
In Lovecraftian mythos, the Hounds of Tindalos attack time-travelers and hunt them forever. Obviously they can be defeated but why send those beings specifically? There are plenty of nasty Outsiders to use as hit men.
The Hounds of Tindalos (or Cornerhounds) are supposedly creatures from Earth's distant past when other life was merely single-celled organisms. They are currently ruled by Mh'ithrha - the Arch-Lord of Tindalos. He is supposed to be invisible to the human eye, but his physical form is that of a gargantuan wolf (somewhat like Fenrir). He has also been engaged in a war against Yog-Sothoth for eternity. Curiously, this suggests that the Outsiders may not actually all be working together. Yog-Sothoth is also essentially the same as the Outer Gates, Cthulu is it's grandchild and Azahoth is his grandsire. Worse still, it manifests as avatars as it is too potent for the multiverse. The fact the Mh'ithrha has survived against this being is testament to it's might, I should think.
Also, Eb says that "they" (read: Black Council) sent the whole pack - 13 Cornerhounds. I think that's significant. Perhaps a mortal can only create 13 ectoplasmic bodies per entity. This would provide a limit on such an entity, unless they came through the Outer Gates (I suspect).
I suspect Mh'ithrha could well be Fenrir, in which Loki and Angrboda are at least part Outsider because the Fire Jotuns of Muspelheim would have to be Outsiders (and Surtur "the Black One" is their leader - perhaps an avatar of Azahoth?). This might also explain Vadderung's role in all of it, but we also now have seen the claws of his eventual killer (theoretically). Convulted, I know. But that comment by Vadderung about the Jotun's retreating is interesting.
Anyway, the first hound leaps at Eb...or does he? Harry says Eb puts a shield between them. Perhaps the real target was Harry? But either way, why send a time-travel hunter monster? Eb is more likely to have time-travelled than Harry (especially with his ability to break the Laws).
Or what if they were there for someone else...like Justine? Or perhaps Harry from the future in the background of the scene (unmentioned but there - like Avengers: Endgame).
What do you all think?
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Also, Eb says that "they" (read: Black Council) sent the whole pack - 13 Cornerhounds. I think that's significant. Perhaps a mortal can only create 13 ectoplasmic bodies per entity. This would provide a limit on such an entity, unless they came through the Outer Gates (I suspect).
I forget where, but it's been established that only mortals can summon Outsiders at all -- back during the war, the fact that Outsiders had shown up among the Red Court ranks was taken as proof that they had mortal practitioners helping them.
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Agreed, only Mortals can summon them. But why would they attack the Outer Gates if they couldn't even get through?
Clearly, Harry doesn't know everything there is to know on the subject. If an Entity managed to get to the actual Gates themselves, I suspect it doesn't need a mortal to actually cross through them. Which does fly in the face of the whole "invitation to a home/crossing the threshold" problem.
It has also been shown that there is at least a partial difference (if not a complete one) in how some entities enter the mortal world. When the Cornerhounds attack Eb seems to suggest that whoever is summoning them (who must have been fairly close by....conservation of energy and all) summoned them directly from the Outside - rather than summoning them first and then sending them through the Nevernever to them.
Same in Blood Rites, when the three ex-wives summon He Who Walks Behind he appears to come directly from Outside (as he notes he has returned to the mortal world after Harry banished him). Whether he physically passed through the Outer Gates at the borders of Faerie is another question. Remember that far out in the Never never things are very abstract and metaphorical, Harry only interprets the Gates as best his mind can. Jim talks about the fact that's the best Harry's mind can do to understand what his senses are telling him. Up until Harry actually went to the Outer Gates, he assumed (wrongly) that the Gates were purely metaphorical. Which isn't entirely wrong, if you think about it, but he just never realised that metaphorical and "physical" in the spirit world can be one and the same.
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If anything, the Hounds seemed like a distraction tactic to me. Harry and/or Eb needed to stop investigating the area around Thomas's apartment for some reason according to whichever BC outsider-summoner was paying attention. The Hounds seemed like they would rank as "Formidable enough to warrant my full attention" to Eb's scale of monsters, but not high enough for "Flee into the NN and regroup after preparing".
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They weren't really 'investigating' though- Harry and Eb were about 5 seconds out from a throwdown when the Outsiders popped up.
Maybe someone didn't want Harry pasted on the sidewalk just yet, so they called up some Eldritch horrors to distract them both?
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Maybe someone didn't want Harry pasted on the sidewalk just yet, so they called up some Eldritch horrors to distract them both?
Maybe future-Harry arranges for them to be summoned so he and Eb don't throw down yet. Hence time travel? That's the problem with time travel being introduced into stories. Is Harry going to run himself off the road in that earlier book?
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The one thing I don't want is to find out that the cornerhounds came after Harry because he will time travel in the future. Leave the timey-whimey BS to Dr. Who. If they were targeting Ebenezer at least there might be a good excuse. He might have recently used the Blackstaff to time travel and whoever summoned the cornerhounds was aware of Eb's activities and knew the cornerhounds would home in on the old wizard because presumably there's a way for those creatures to sense some residual signal (or call it a magical scent) that identifies a recent time traveler.
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They weren't really 'investigating' though- Harry and Eb were about 5 seconds out from a throwdown when the Outsiders popped up.
Maybe someone didn't want Harry pasted on the sidewalk just yet, so they called up some Eldritch horrors to distract them both?
That conversation escalated quickly, though. Less than a minute in real time, probably. How long does it take to whistle up Outsiders? Harry was about to open up his Sight when Eb snuck up on him.
Maybe future-Harry arranges for them to be summoned so he and Eb don't throw down yet. Hence time travel? That's the problem with time travel being introduced into stories. Is Harry going to run himself off the road in that earlier book?
Almost definitely. PG is rife with time travel confusion.
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Binder definitely summons more than 13 henchmen and they share a hivemind similar to the corner hounds... Interesting they hunt time travelers though.. veeeery interesting...
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Yes, the time travel bit is certainly interesting...
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Has Eb just done some time travelling? It would certainly provide an alibi “I couldn’t have put a whammy on Thomas as I was in X meeting with Y dignitaries of impeccable character at that time, just ask the Summer Lady”. We don’t know yet whether a Eb along his personal time -line has done the time travelling yet when the Hounds intervene. The hounds may have been an attempt to prevent him, its after this argument with Harry that he time travels to intercept Thomas and whammy him, the battle at the Water Beetle therefore occurs after he has done this. Harry therefore provokes Eb into setting up Thomas.
Harry argues with Harry at the Svartalves residence over Thomas
Thomas attacks Etri
Eb argues again with Harry outside Thomas Apartment
The Hounds attack Eb
Eb goes back in time to set up Thomas for the attack on Etri triggering the Hounds to attack him before he does so and eliminate the paradox Eb has created.
Eb has his third confrontation with Harry and learns Thomas is his grandson
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Random facts:
- Harry was checking for surveillance around Justine's apartment when he gets attacked and mentions not seeing anything when he gets attacked
- Similarly, Lara mentions leaks but hasn't noticed any magical interference.
- Only mortals can summon Outsiders.
The idea of time-travel is interesting, as it would explain how nobody is noticing anything ("Veil Time" would be a good name for a book), but I think it's more likely that it's pure mortals doing everything. Consider that later on, Grey says that the Feds have surveillance on Justine.
WAG:
What if Justine was the one leaking Lara's secrets to some mortal authority (e.g. the FBI) in return for the supernatural equivalent of "Witness Protection". This would explain why they have surveillance in place, and also maybe why the first thing Justine asks is "does Lara know?". She's more worried about the spying. FBI-style bugging would be very hard for Harry to detect (though easy to disrupt).
As for the Hounds, what if the FBI agents were given "tools" they don't really understand (e.g. hexunbelts), or somehow suborned to serve the Black Council? Someone could easily blackmail Thomas with Justine's spying and force him to do things (or maybe Thomas was in on the spying himself).
Or maybe, Ebenezer's "someone you don't expect" is actually Justine. Heck, do we know for sure if Thomas is really the father?
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Ebenezer's "someone you don't expect" is actually Justine.
This is where I am until someone convinces me otherwise.
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The one thing I don't want is to find out that the cornerhounds came after Harry because he will time travel in the future. Leave the timey-whimey BS to Dr. Who. If they were targeting Ebenezer at least there might be a good excuse. He might have recently used the Blackstaff to time travel and whoever summoned the cornerhounds was aware of Eb's activities and knew the cornerhounds would home in on the old wizard because presumably there's a way for those creatures to sense some residual signal (or call it a magical scent) that identifies a recent time traveler.
That's interesting. I was interested in the idea that they came for the time-traveled Harry, but couldn't tell them apart.
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Conspiracy Theorist - It's an interesting scene you propose but I doubt that Time Travel is as easy as that. Otherwise wouldn't Eb just rewrite all his mistakes and always win? Vadderung hints that it's next to impossible to actually do, even if you know how.
knnn - Very interesting idea about Veil Time. It's clear in the Dresdenverse that reality has multiple layers...Uriel isn't bothered by thresholds or circles and time isn't linear for him. So it wouldn't surprise me if Dresden were simply unable to detect that layer of reality with the Sight as all he is scanning is the layers he can perceive. It ties into the whole thing Carmichael talks about in Ghost Story about Harry not being ready to experience more layers as it would "obviate certain options".
Humans bugs don't seem as likely, at least to me. Lara has mortals in her employ with the training to detect such mundane methods and they wouldn't disrupt the tech. But Harry being unable to see them seems likely as he isn't even aware of most of the internet. It's plausible that Justine has asked to be bugged...but I would think that Lara's contacts in government would find out that information unless she was protected via those "BPRD/MIB" guys. But I could see it all as a set-up to get Harry somehow.
I like the idea of mortal agents summoning Outsiders without realizing the extent of what they were doing. Very Lovecraft, but also a nice tie-in to the FBI agents in Fool Moon being given those belts.
I think the current suspects for the knife in the ribs moment are: Justine, Murphy, Carlos, Lara, one of the young wardens, Thomas. In that order.
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Suppose the ritual to time travel lets in the Hounds? You have to survive them trying to nip the paradox in the bud, at the same time you break two Laws for the price of one. The law against time travel exists, so it isn’t impossible, it probably takes huge power and focus and risk to life. The Hounds attack before you time travel, so Eb knows either he or Harry will time travel, and that he can do it successfully as they have already survived the Hounds. Eb is the Blackstaff with permission to break the Laws, so why not? There are no consequences for him on this ocasion.
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Well, all that and a small measure of simple luck. Vadderung says it's far easier generally to shape the future. The Law actually is Thou Shall Not Swim Against The Currents of Time...not merely going backwards. Vadderung doesn't say it is impossible, merely improbable. Just because he is allowed to do travel backwards doesn't mean he can actually alter events, or even that he has. And I propose to you that Jim hasn't yet revealed whether Time Travel creates an ontological paradox.
Besides, why go to all the bother? Plenty of easier ways to create perfect alibis with magic. Why do it like this? He could have someone enchanted to look like him or create an illusion or alter memories. He doesn't actually have to travel in time to achieve his goal.
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Because Eb got the idea after the event, he already had the alibi when he realised he had/would time travel. He had an effect with no cause, and the Hounds alerted him to it.
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That would be an ontological paradox. He goes back because he already went back which reminds him to go back. So why did the first iteration go back?
This creates a timeloop from which Eb cannot escape. Or at least that's one theory.
Vadderung supports this when Harry asks him what happens if he kills his grandfather i.e. how would he know to go back. Vadderung says a twinned universe happens, one where Harry is never born and one where Harry fails in the attempt and is killed. The point being that because Eb already exists he obviously isn't killed by a time traveling Harry and Harry's own existence is proof. Which isn't to say Eb might not have killed a time traveling Harry earlier in his own life...but surely he would be trying to prevent this.
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Humans bugs don't seem as likely, at least to me. Lara has mortals in her employ with the training to detect such mundane methods and they wouldn't disrupt the tech. But Harry being unable to see them seems likely as he isn't even aware of most of the internet.
I don't think Lara is actually being bugged. I think it's simple human treachery (i.e. Justine stealing secrets). If you will recall, Lara summarily discounts the idea treachery ("has never happened" -- conveniently forgetting about Madeline in Turn Coat). We've already seen Justine go behind Lara's back for Harry/Thomas. Who is to say she isn't doing the same for other parties (possibly with Thomas' knowledge and consent)?
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It could have been Thomas. What would he do if someone offered him a path to freedom, both for him and Justine?
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Thomas loyalties are (aside from Justine) the White Court, Harry and his role as a Venator. He is beholden to no one else. Lara didn’t put the arm on him, Harry didn’t, and Lara is his link to the Venatori.
Justines loyalties lie with Thomas, Harry and the White Court. Unless there is some player out there we haven’t seen she would have to be coerced. She was linked with the Red Court but they no longer exist.
Why would either steal secrets for some third party?
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To escape the demon and to quit being a vampire.
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I don't think Lara is actually being bugged. I think it's simple human treachery (i.e. Justine stealing secrets). If you will recall, Lara summarily discounts the idea treachery ("has never happened" -- conveniently forgetting about Madeline in Turn Coat). We've already seen Justine go behind Lara's back for Harry/Thomas. Who is to say she isn't doing the same for other parties (possibly with Thomas' knowledge and consent)?
I think the Madeline thing might be another inconsistency in the writing. Sadly the book is riddled with so many of them it's hard to discount them as layered clues. It's perfectly understandable how it happened but it would be nice if such obvious errors were eventually explained, or at least were not present if not intentional. An otherwise enjoyable book loses marks for presentation. But perhaps I am wrong and Jim has a clever way of explaining all his errors. That would be quite incredible and enjoyable.
I agree about Justine though. She definitely does leak to Harry when needed so it's certainly possible that it is to others as well. And if Justine is doing it, perhaps others are too. Thomas has been leaking information for years if you think about it. What's interesting though is that the really big stuff that Lara is up to hasn't gotten out. Thomas only seems to be vaguely aware of Lara's power grab and Justine apparently has no real intel. Lara is clearly aware (like her father) of the cycle. What's curious is that it isn't clear what cycle this is. It can't be the 666 years thing as it's only been 40 odd years since the last one happened. My guess is that something immediately follows the 666 years thing...some sort of conjunction. More on that in another thread.
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Just so long as we don’t ger conjunctionvitis
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Which thread is for discussing the cycle? I have strong leanings towards the Yeats gyre. Also, before this 666 thing came up there was a Woj towards Nic about beings a couple thousand years old being in the know, I'd originally thought that to be the cycle.. or more correctly the completion of it, with around the 1k mark being where time/space inverts.
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The 666-year thing sounds like it's not just the birth of a Starborn, but also some apocalyptic event in which that Starborn will play a pivotal role.
A lot of the craziness of the DF makes sense if you think that Odin and Nicodemus and Cowl and many others are scrambling for power and influence right now because they know that the once-every-666-years mega-conjunction (like the Halloween to beat all Halloweens) is coming soon. Heck, Nick mentions that time is running out every time he's on screen.
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Well, 666 has an obvious presence in mythology. But if that's the birth of a Starborn, then what's the adverse number associated with the defecation impacting the rotary air conditioner?
Harry's 39/40 right now in the series and things are really picking up. Can we expect it to happen 42 years after the Alignment? (Since that happens to be the answer to life, the universe, everything?). Or is it variable on current conditions?
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I prefer fecal matter hitting the occilating rotor lol
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Thomas loyalties are (aside from Justine) the White Court, Harry and his role as a Venator. He is beholden to no one else. Lara didn’t put the arm on him, Harry didn’t, and Lara is his link to the Venatori.
Justines loyalties lie with Thomas, Harry and the White Court. Unless there is some player out there we haven’t seen she would have to be coerced. She was linked with the Red Court but they no longer exist.
Why would either steal secrets for some third party?
Because the baby realigns their loyalties.