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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Uriel_spook on July 07, 2020, 03:09:00 PM

Title: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Uriel_spook on July 07, 2020, 03:09:00 PM
Six chapters in and the pressure cooker is in full effect. Looking forward to seeing where Harry goes from here in just one week.  Will be refreshing my app in the wee hours of the morning - who needs sleep right?
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 07, 2020, 03:19:05 PM
Harry had an entire book about *one* favour- and that was a small one. Things are about to get hectic...

I’ve booked a day off work next Tuesday. I feel I’ve waited a long time for this day to arrive :)
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 07, 2020, 03:29:00 PM
What the hell is this suppose to represent?
Quote
“Three?” I blurted. “I had to fight for my life through Arctis Tor and slug it out with an Elder Phobophage just to earn one favor!”

Mab’s eyes swiveled to me. “And you were repaid appropriately for your deeds.”

“I got a doughnut!”

“It is hardly my concern if you wasted your favor upon something so frivolous,” Mab said.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 03:45:12 PM
What the hell is this suppose to represent?

Well, Harry could have asked for a lot more apparently.  I cannot remember if he was down to doing the third favor to owed to Mab or not... But she could have been hinting that if he had used his head and asked for it, he could have wiped out all the obligation he owed Mab and be a free man now, but he asked for a doughnut..

So far in the first six chapters Jim has thrown almost everything but the kitchen sink at Harry and he is about to go in over his head in the deepest of deep poop!    Nothing new for him I know, but I hope he has some water wings!  ::)  Somehow me thinks these next two books are going to be another pivot point in Harry's life like Grave Peril and Changes were..    8)
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: knnn on July 07, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
Well, except for the fact that the favor Harry got was from the Summer Court.   Not sure Mab would have been required to fulfill anything.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: spiritofair on July 07, 2020, 04:05:58 PM
Well, except for the fact that the favor Harry got was from the Summer Court.   Not sure Mab would have been required to fulfill anything.
And the doughnut was requested at a most opportune time, in way that saved his life.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 07, 2020, 04:06:25 PM
Which would all be well and good if it weren't for the fact that the favor was granted by Titania, not Mab.  Maybe I'm misreading it but that's how it looks.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 07, 2020, 04:47:21 PM
Yes, it was a summer favour. That confused me too. Except maybe he meant generally a favour from the fae.
And hey: The building was on fire, but it wasn't Harry's fault. LOL
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: bmillard on July 07, 2020, 04:53:04 PM
Interesting that Harry & Murphy have sex (although it's possible they didn't go all the way since we didn't read it) right before he might need true love protection from Laura. Now to wait and see if he has it.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 05:35:38 PM
Well, except for the fact that the favor Harry got was from the Summer Court.   Not sure Mab would have been required to fulfill anything.


 You never know, as Gollum would say,  "It's trixsie..."
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: knightedbishop on July 07, 2020, 05:43:08 PM
Mab was referring to the favor Harry received from the Summer Court that he then used to get Eldest Gruff to fetch him a donut. That stopped Gruff from having to give Harry a beat down. Harry got away with his life.

I think Harry of the present would likely be crafter and not have been in that situation to begin with. He basically squandered the full value of the favor. Clearly Lara is getting full bang for her buck.

Mab always has a plan. Well, Mab has a three dozen plans going on at any one time. She is fond of Harry on some level. Whatever purpose she had for Harry is not fulfilled. She does not intend to throw him away. But she also has no use for him if he can’t fend for himself.

When Mab first brought Harry to Arctis Tor she subjected him to rigorous physical training. I think these jobs she’s giving him serve multiple purposes. They fulfill an immediate need Mab has. They increase Harry’s stature. They also serve to train Harry’s mind just as she trained his body.

I want to know who the heck set the svartalves’s embassy on fire. Anyone powerful enough to pull the trigger knew the can of whoop *** they were opening.  And if it was to get at Maggie? Well...yeah. Sucks to be them.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 07, 2020, 06:21:55 PM
I'm glad that Harry still has the Munstermobile. He's gotta have a silly car, and you just know that his flamed hearse is going to get comments at the peace talks.

On protection against Lara, it's hard to tell. Do you have to go all the way in sex in order to have True Love protection? The protection comes from intertwining your soul with the soul of your true love, right? And that definitely happens in sex, but also can happen to a lesser degree.
Back in another book (small favor?), Bob mentions that a hug between Harry and Murphy caused a little bit of soul swapping. Maybe protection against the whampires isn't an on/off thing, but a spectrum of how much soul swapping happened and how recently.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 07, 2020, 06:25:00 PM
Ok so let's think of the favors Lara could've done.  One thing that comes to my mind is helping to defend Demon Reach.  If that's the favor, then Winter owes Marcone a favor too since his forces helped defend it too.

I think one of the favors might have been Thomas assassinate some one.

In chapter 6 Harry talks about the amount of influence Lara is gaining in the government.  In Jury Duty, we meet Tania Raith, a low level DA, who could exert influence over DA's higher up in the food chain.  Mab may want to use the mortal authorities and Murphy as leverage over Harry.  Perhaps Lara helped Mab get that influence.   

Another thing that i found interesting was this:
"“New colors,” she said, her voice velvety smooth and calm. “The shield used to be blue. What changed?”

“He made an alliance with a powerful guardian entity,” said the second monster, a woman seated beside the first. She was as lean as a rod of rebar, but colder and harder, and her opalescent green eyes were too big to be strictly human. Silver‑white hair fell to her shoulders, today in a fine silken sheet. Her voice sounded calm and precise, and she wore a glacier blue dress that belonged on a runway. “It does not interfere with his duties.”"

That exchange between Lara and Mab makes me wonder how Harry's relationship with demon reach has changed him, and to what degree Harry can use power from Demon Reach when he isn't on the island.

Mab also implied that Lara would like how Harry tasted and remind her that Harry was a member of her court.  When Harry and Mab had sex to seal the deal for winter knight she said that Harry was hers.  I also think Bob may have mention something about Harry kind of being married to Mab.  I wonder if Mab protects Harry from being eaten by a wampire.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 07, 2020, 06:56:33 PM
Interesting that Harry & Murphy have sex (although it's possible they didn't go all the way since we didn't read it) right before he might need true love protection from Laura. Now to wait and see if he has it.
I don't know what else he has to be smug about.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Bad Alias on July 07, 2020, 07:03:19 PM
I want to know who the heck set the svartalves’s embassy on fire.
My money is on Thomas.

I hope at some point Harry reminds Lara what happened to the last person Harry fulfilled a favor to the Winter Court for. Thinking about how faeries work, Harry was lucky to get rid of the favor from the Summer Court without getting more entangled or destroyed in the process. Morgan didn't survive by cashing his favor in. Harry did. Who used it more wisely?
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Aminar on July 07, 2020, 08:01:58 PM
My money is on Thomas.

I hope at some point Harry reminds Lara what happened to the last person Harry fulfilled a favor to the Winter Court for. Thinking about how faeries work, Harry was lucky to get rid of the favor from the Summer Court without getting more entangled or destroyed in the process. Morgan didn't survive by cashing his favor in. Harry did. Who used it more wisely?
Thomas is getting accused. I doubt he actually did it.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 07, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
Thomas wouldn't burn down a building with his niece in it. I can't believe that.

Maybe asshole-Ebenezar, to show Harry, that he was right, that being near him was too dangerous for Maggie (of course taking her to safety first), and at the same time letting the svartalves know who was the most powerful or something like that.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 09:12:51 PM
Interesting that Harry & Murphy have sex (although it's possible they didn't go all the way since we didn't read it) right before he might need true love protection from Laura. Now to wait and see if he has it.

Question, how many times in your life do you get true love protection?  Now Harry got protection that lasted for years from Susan.

It could be little Maggie's talents are awakening, and she is a chip off the old block, doing KABOOM fire magic like her daddy.  Ain't it cute? ::)   She is safe though, Mouse would see to that.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Aminar on July 07, 2020, 09:32:14 PM
Question, how many times in your life do you get true love protection?  Now Harry got protection that lasted for years from Susan.

It could be little Maggie's talents are awakening, and she is a chip off the old block, doing KABOOM fire magic like her daddy.  Ain't it cute? ::)   She is safe though, Mouse would see to that.
Justine's protection seems to renew on a pretty regular, if not daily basis. That said, the number of relationships is probably small and I can see the Winter Mantle making it hard to gain protection. There's an element of supernatural coersion there that could qualify in the same way Luccio's coercion or Billy/Georgia's it can't be truw love while they're married to someone else thing. Harry is Mab's consort after all.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 07, 2020, 10:18:46 PM
Yes, it was a summer favour. That confused me too. Except maybe he meant generally a favour from the fae.

Yeah, I think so. The Courts are symmetrical in things like this; favors from Summer should work basically like those from Winter.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 07, 2020, 10:23:04 PM
I also think Bob may have mention something about Harry kind of being married to Mab.  I wonder if Mab protects Harry from being eaten by a wampire.

Not in the True Love protection sense, Mab and Harry definitely don't love each other.

But in the supernatural-politics sense, absolutely, that's what Mab's "a member of my house" comment to Lara was about. If Lara killed or weakened Harry by feeding on him, that would be essentially stealing from Mab as well as depriving her of one of her best weapons, which really wouldn't end well for Lara.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 07, 2020, 10:34:52 PM
Yeah they definitely don't love each other, and i agree on the diplomatic front. 

Mab has given Harry a small part of her power.  I wonder if Lara taking a bite out of Harry would be like us trying to chew through ice.  We could do it for a while but our teeth would break eventually. 

Also look at what Molly did to poor Carlos.  I don't think Thomas would've come out of that much better.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 07, 2020, 10:41:45 PM
Taken with the trailer, one of the favours will be to rescue Thomas from the White Council, something Harry would have done in any event, but this would allow him to do with the full power of the Winter Knight Mantle behind him.

I also think this is a manifestation of Maggies powers, first use of magic is bound with emotion, and she blames herself for the argument between her father and great grandfather. She has social anxiety issues, so this is going to be a problem for Harry. I suspect we are going to have a running joke of “she takes after her father” everytime someone learns about it.

At least we know why they were at the Carpentersfor Christmas.

Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: moses_the_red on July 08, 2020, 12:02:07 AM
Thomas is getting accused. I doubt he actually did it.

He may have caused some kind of disturbance that resulted in it though...
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: peregrine on July 08, 2020, 01:26:53 AM
Doesn't the blurb talk about Thomas being accused of murder by the wife of the dead guy?
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on July 08, 2020, 01:54:46 AM
Taken with the trailer, one of the favors will be to rescue Thomas from the White Council, something Harry would have done in any event, but this would allow him to do with the full power of the Winter Knight Mantle behind him.

I'm pretty much onboard with this idea; however, I'll add some speculation to it and comment on something we saw in the trailer. 

Speculating about the one of the favors Lara might have done for Mab, Walter the skull guessed that Lara used to Thomas to kill someone Mab wanted removed and that's what Thomas ends up accused of.  I'm not 100% on board with that idea; after all, Mab has Harry if she needs to kill someone, unless it was someone or something Harry would have a problem killing, like someone he cared about.  However, I think it's possible Thomas does kill someone on Lara's behalf.  Thomas is worried about Justine.  If Lara could promise Thomas that she knew how to keep Justine from dying during her pregnancy, that would give Lara quite a bit of leverage to get Thomas to do her bidding.  It's also conceivable that Lara knew that Thomas could get caught and she planned to use one of her owed favors to get the Winter Knight's full co-operation and power in retrieving Thomas, if necessary.  Harry would do it anyway, but as Conspiracy Theorist speculates, maybe the full power of the Winter Knight is needed to rescue Thomas.  Or, maybe Lara likes the idea of the Winter Knight leaving clues behind like a lot of melting frost and ice so she doesn't get blamed for springing Thomas and that way is able to avoid incurring the wrath of the Swartelves.   

Looking at the trailer, Warden Ramirez all but accuses Harry of being a traitor.  We are meant to think Carlos saw Harry and Lara in flagrante, but what is more likely is that when Harry pays off one the two favors that Lara is owed, Carlos sees whatever it was that Harry did, or he sees a part of it, and starts to distrust Harry.
 
It's been a long time so it's easy to forget, but Lara owes Murphy a favor.  (I think from allowing Lara to quietly dispose of the bodies left behind at the Raith home at the end of Blood Rites.)  I have a feeling this is the book where Lara is forced to pay off that debt.  It will probably save Harry's bacon.

A couple of people have speculated the fire this a manifestation of Maggies powers.  Maybe, but it could also be something as simple as a cooking accident.  Bonea has a lot of knowledge but doesn't have the context to fully understand it.  She and Maggie get together to make something other than pancakes and boom!  One small mystery is who did Harry get to babysit?

Finally, Walter the skull also noticed that Harry is using Demonreach's power or Alfred's type of magic, to infuse his defensive shield.  Watch the trailer again and you will notice that after Ebenezer says, "Boy, tell me you ain't dumb enough to try this," when Harry activates his shield, it has pale green color with a slight yellow tint to it.  One wonders if this power or type of magic will also help infuse Harry's offensive abilities.  To steal a line I saw someone use on Reddit, instead of using Soulfire or Hellfire, Harry's enemies will get Alfired.  (OK, it seemed funny the first time I saw it.)     
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 08, 2020, 03:28:08 AM
KurtinStGeorge: Nice catch in the trailer.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Yuillegan on July 08, 2020, 03:33:54 AM
A few things - the assassination attempt is of
(click to show/hide)

Thomas is more vulnerable and controllable due to Justine's pregnancy. I think that it's highly likely he performs the hit for Lara because of a power play. Lara clearly is going for power for one reason or another this book and we are going to see what she's been up to since Turn Coat.

Secondly, the fire is more likely a hit I think than a random act of destruction by Maggie. Maggie is the kind of kid who is calm in stressful situations and stressed in normal everyday interactions. Not a good candidate for a phoenix moment. This could even be the hit that Thomas performs.

As for the favors...well as we know Lara is pretty powerful and capable. What's interesting to me is that Mab is clearly the one who needs help. What does Lara have that Mab herself could not perform or have her nation perform? I suspect it is directly related to the library Lara has and the Outsider war. Make no mistake that Lara's emergence in a book where Outsiders show up is a hint. Jim is practically whacking us over the head with Mab showing up next to her.

Harry had to do a monumental task for Summer to get a favor. Which, as Mab says, he frivolously wasted on a doughnut. Mab was rebuking him for making poor choices. She expects better in her knights. Also who doesn't check the back of their car when they get in? It isn't paranoia, it's just a glance and you know what's there. Very surprised Harry didn't see them until he was backing out.

I suppose the interesting thing is what the minimum requirements are for a favor from Mab. I can't imagine that just giving her a gift basket would earn a Winter Knight. So it must be significant whatever she did (perhaps on several occasions) to earn the three favors.

And did anyone else pick up that Mab has already repaid Lara one favor herself? I wonder what it was...
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 08, 2020, 03:44:07 AM
I'm not sure what that could be.  Maybe help with the Fomor? 
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: magnuskn on July 08, 2020, 05:24:27 AM
It's kind of amazing how much tools Jim now has to get Harry into trouble at the start of the book. Compared to the early books, where there was a main threat and maybe one or two side things to complicate things, nowadays the list of things which go wrong (and do go wrong, as seen in these early chapters) seems endless.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 08, 2020, 05:56:10 AM
Mab has given Harry a small part of her power.  I wonder if Lara taking a bite out of Harry would be like us trying to chew through ice.  We could do it for a while but our teeth would break eventually.

Interesting thought.

I tend to think not - IMO Lara would just get Harry's life force rather than Winter's power, and when Harry died, the Mantle would go back to Mab (or maybe Molly) to bestow on a new Knight.

I'm not sure if eating Winter power would necessarily be incompatible with/harmful to Whampires, but I think the Mantle has to be protected from things like that. There are too many things in the DV that feed on life energy in some way.

Quote
Also look at what Molly did to poor Carlos.  I don't think Thomas would've come out of that much better.

That's a Lady-specific issue (because it is the Maiden aspect of the Maiden/Mother/Crone thing) -- the Knight mantles don't work like that.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 08, 2020, 08:06:49 AM
Molly's issue is definitely an issue unique to the ladys.  I totally agree.  I was just using that as an example of the mantles' having a defense mechanism.  I don't know.  I think you bring up an interesting idea.  The mantle might be immune from losing energy to a wampire, but the rest of Harry could be vulnerable.  The Knight mantle is definitely less important than Lady's mantle it might not have any built in defense.   
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2020, 10:17:50 AM
In rescuing Thomas as a favour, it will be in accordance with the Mantle DESPITE Mab’s publicly professed position during the peace talks themselves. This is why Mab did it, she can manipulate everyone without telling a lie.

Remember that Luccio knows about Thomas, I think this is the major betrayal, she tells the Merlin and he sets up the situation where Harry and Eb have to throw down over Thomas. What neither Luccio or the Merlin know is that Eb is Harry and Thomas’ grandfather. Mab knows, she is engineering this confrontation to cause a split in the White Council, probably to get rid of Christos and the Merlin, making Eb the new Merlin or the formal creation of the Grey Council as a new supernatural nation under the Accords taking Eb, Harry, Listens To Wind(I can’t help thinking this is a Blazing Saddles joke by Jim) Martha Liberty the Paranet and all the young wardens with him, splitting off the new world from the old.

The tag team of Lara and Mab suggests this type of machination by Mab, remember she had her own daughter killed in a similar circuitous fashion, and destroyed Nicodemus in a similar indirect  fashion. I suspect one of the favours was Lara introducing Mab to Marcone prior to Skin Game as being interested in revenge on Nicodemus.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 08, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
Justine's protection seems to renew on a pretty regular, if not daily basis. That said, the number of relationships is probably small and I can see the Winter Mantle making it hard to gain protection. There's an element of supernatural coersion there that could qualify in the same way Luccio's coercion or Billy/Georgia's it can't be truw love while they're married to someone else thing. Harry is Mab's consort after all.

No, it doesn't, that was the point of her having same sex sex back in Ghost Story.  Any sex killed her protection so she could then have sex with Thomas.  The sex act with someone else kills the true love protection from the White Court.  My question is, one can fall in love more than once, is it always considered "true love?"
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 08, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
That porn movie director from blood rites fell in love all the time. I do not think there are hard rules, some people have just more capacity for true love than others.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: peregrine on July 08, 2020, 02:51:20 PM
No, it doesn't, that was the point of her having same sex sex back in Ghost Story.  Any sex killed her protection so she could then have sex with Thomas.  The sex act with someone else kills the true love protection from the White Court.  My question is, one can fall in love more than once, is it always considered "true love?"
Obviously not always given that Harry loved Luccio, even if she didn't love him.  (Though that's an interesting question, would Luccio have been protected?) but there's no reason to think you only get one True Love in your life.  Even if that other person is Murphy.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2020, 04:23:34 PM
For protection from the White Court, it is to love and be loved in return. Harry loved all the women he has been romantic with, not all of them loved him back. Michael and Charity would both be protected, Susan and Harry were, and Thomas and Justine are about the only couples we have seen who qualify.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 08, 2020, 06:45:01 PM
Obviously not always given that Harry loved Luccio, even if she didn't love him.  (Though that's an interesting question, would Luccio have been protected?) but there's no reason to think you only get one True Love in your life.  Even if that other person is Murphy.

Also does true love have to be a two way street?  I mean you could love someone with all your heart, a pure faithful love, without it being returned.  Does that count? 
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 08, 2020, 08:05:21 PM
I understood that the couple needs to share True Love for protection to kick.

About the chapter itself:
I would not be surprised if Maggie was the one doing the fire. Magically, not a kitchen problem that would be probably easy to extinguish.
As Harry, I am wondering what Lara did to win 3 favors. Perhaps she did something to Fix, weakening Summer.
I found quite out of character for Mab to volunteer information about why Harry has a different color for his shield. We have been told many times that knowledge is power. Why gave it for free?
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Just Al on July 08, 2020, 08:29:36 PM
Quote
I would not be surprised if Maggie was the one doing the fire

Given that the Svartelves are magically powerful and they know Harry's reputation and Maggie's heritage, I don't think it would be a magical accident by Maggie that caused the fire.

In Zoo day Harry could feel the magic build up in [Kid's name] before he opened a way for creatures from the Never Never to enter. I would imagine that Etri's crew would be on the lookout for something like that from Maggie.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: forumghost on July 08, 2020, 09:09:23 PM
I understood that the couple needs to share True Love for protection to kick.

About the chapter itself:
I would not be surprised if Maggie was the one doing the fire. Magically, not a kitchen problem that would be probably easy to extinguish.
As Harry, I am wondering what Lara did to win 3 favors. Perhaps she did something to Fix, weakening Summer.
I found quite out of character for Mab to volunteer information about why Harry has a different color for his shield. We have been told many times that knowledge is power. Why gave it for free?

Probably because it wasn't really worth much on it's own. Now, if Lara had followed that segue into asking what that entity was... that is far more valuable information.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 08, 2020, 09:17:53 PM
Molly's issue is definitely an issue unique to the ladys.  I totally agree.  I was just using that as an example of the mantles' having a defense mechanism.

Ah, ok. IMO, though, the difference is that the Mantle itself wouldn't be threatened by Harry becoming Whampire-chow.

There are various Winter Fae that feed on life force in some way - Leanansidhe uses blood, the phobophages from PG feed on fear in much the same way as House Malvora. The process isn't particularly foreign to the Winter Court.

I doubt the Mantle would treat it any differently than any other cause of death for the Knight.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Avernite on July 09, 2020, 08:12:30 PM
Probably because it wasn't really worth much on it's own. Now, if Lara had followed that segue into asking what that entity was... that is far more valuable information.
Most people in the books seem to be secretive-unless.

So Mab was definitely working an angle, though that angle could just be 'be good friends with a power that is on the rise, they make the best patsies'.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 09, 2020, 09:47:09 PM
I wonder if the favor the White Court did for Mab was depositing money into Marcone's bank.  Mab and Marcone needed people to start depositing into the bank so it would be close enough in idea to use as an entry point into Hades' vault in the never never.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 09, 2020, 10:16:06 PM
No it’s information, knowledge Mab doesn’t have, she is not an Intellectus.
It would have to be knowledge Lara has which is useful to Mab and which Lara knows or may be presumed to know in the books. It could be

1. The information about Harry and Thomas being brothers, giving Mab that lever over Harry;
2. The knowledge that Eb is Harry’s and Thomas grandfather
3. Introducing Marcone to Mab for the Skin Game revenge on Nicky:
4. The knowledge that Luccio knows about the relationship between Harry and Thomas, allowing her to set up her play in Peace Talks.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 09, 2020, 10:35:00 PM
What? Mab does not know about Thomas and Harry being brothers?
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 10, 2020, 12:56:52 AM
What? Mab does not know about Thomas and Harry being brothers?

We don't know (as far as I recall), but I'm not sure that Lara knows either. The White King *didn't* pick up on it (it was Arianna), and I don't think Harry goes around telling people that.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 10, 2020, 01:24:51 AM
We don't know (as far as I recall), but I'm not sure that Lara knows either. The White King *didn't* pick up on it (it was Arianna), and I don't think Harry goes around telling people that.
From Small Favor.
Quote
“Nonsense,” Mab said. “If you died, I would simply recruit your brother. He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers.”

A little cold feeling shot through me. I hadn’t realized that Mab knew who he was.
If Lara knows it hasn't been in the text.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 10, 2020, 01:52:57 AM
Lara knows because in Changes Thomas said that knowing there was a chance that the blood ritual would kill her would be a plausible excuse for him going in Harry's help. She needs to know that Maggie is Thomas's family.
I was asking if Mab knows, I am pretty sure she knows because Lea was very familiar with Maggie LeFay life.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 10, 2020, 01:56:13 AM
Mab knows about Thomas.  She brought it up in chapter 46 of Small Favor, after Harry talks with Uriel.  She said if Harry were killed she would offer the winter night position to his brother.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 10, 2020, 01:56:38 AM
Lara knows since Blood Rites. It is part of the hold they have on each other. She knows about Thomas and he knows about her father.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 10, 2020, 02:06:51 AM
Mab knows about Thomas.  She brought it up in chapter 46 of Small Favor, after Harry talks with Uriel.  She said if Harry were killed she would offer the winter night position to his brother.
Thank you! I thought so-
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 10, 2020, 07:23:17 AM
Either Lara knew about Eb and Thomas or was in a position to know due to her proximity to Thomas, her father and Maggie Snr. This info would only have become useful in obtaining a favour once Lara was aware of Harry being offered the position of Winter Knight, and capable of winning a favour from Mab. Mab wouldn’t have made a secret of the offer, so as to elicit exactly this type of information being offered and to get leverage over Harry. It worked, shading Harry towards Mab offer.

Mab GIVING information about Demonreach to Lara though, may have resulted in Lara inadvertently wasting a favour. In technical terms Lara may have ‘had her doughnut’, on that one. Lara may end up banking on a favour she has already used.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2020, 01:48:49 PM
Either Lara knew about Eb and Thomas or was in a position to know due to her proximity to Thomas, her father and Maggie Snr. This info would only have become useful in obtaining a favour once Lara was aware of Harry being offered the position of Winter Knight, and capable of winning a favour from Mab. Mab wouldn’t have made a secret of the offer, so as to elicit exactly this type of information being offered and to get leverage over Harry. It worked, shading Harry towards Mab offer.

Mab GIVING information about Demonreach to Lara though, may have resulted in Lara inadvertently wasting a favour. In technical terms Lara may have ‘had her doughnut’, on that one. Lara may end up banking on a favour she has already used.

I doubt that Mab could give Lara that much information about Demonreach, even if she wanted to, that is in the hands of it's Warden and Alfred.  So given that, it may not be considered a "favor."  Knowing Mab and her four dimensional chess, she may have given Lara a pass on this for her own reasons.

Lara plays her own version of four dimensional chess, I wouldn't be shocked if she turns out to be the one who was behind the assassination attempt by Thomas.  Knowing Thomas might not be able to pull it off.   As insurance she is calling in a favor from Mab to "sanction"  the rescue attempt they both know Harry would try anyway, spreading the risk and giving Harry a little cover as well.  Mab might even be in on the plan from the get go, the only one not in on it, is Harry.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 10, 2020, 02:02:14 PM
What reason would Lara have to assassinate The Merlin or other Senior Council Member? Except for the knowledge that Luccio may have given him, about Thomas mother, but the Merlin may already be using this knowledge to get rid of Harry, so Thomas was intending to assassinate the Merlin, but the Merlin was already trying to set Thomas up to look as a potential assassin and bait for Harry.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2020, 04:26:48 PM
What reason would Lara have to assassinate The Merlin or other Senior Council Member? Except for the knowledge that Luccio may have given him, about Thomas mother, but the Merlin may already be using this knowledge to get rid of Harry, so Thomas was intending to assassinate the Merlin, but the Merlin was already trying to set Thomas up to look as a potential assassin and bait for Harry.

What reason?  I guess that is what we are about to find out in Peace Talks.  For that matter what reason would Thomas have?  Only one I can think of is he made a Faustian bargain with someone to keep Justine and their child safe from the Hunger.  It could be he made that bargain with Mab, or Lara made that bargain on his behalf.  Then the question becomes, who does Mab want dead?  And
it would fit with her four dimensional game of chess as well.  She wants someone on the Council dead, she may even have a good reason to want him or her dead.. However to keep a level of "plausible deniability"  she cannot order Harry to do it.  And further if it was a Council member Harry would fight her on it..  So she makes a deal with Thomas, enter Lara, who will want to save her brother so, more favors asked for and granted, and Harry finds himself a pawn in a dirty game to do what he would have tried anyway, save his brother.

Actually if you go by what is taking place in the first six chapters, someone wants this member dead, and Harry is being set up to take the fall, which Mab is trying to prevent.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: toodeep on July 10, 2020, 07:23:37 PM
That exchange between Lara and Mab makes me wonder how Harry's relationship with demon reach has changed him, and to what degree Harry can use power from Demon Reach when he isn't on the island.

Harry's power was showing green effects all throughout Skin Game.  I think there has also been at least one instance of his staff glowing green when he runs power through it as well now. 

I find it interesting that Bonea has green fire eyes and was inside him for him awakening the island.  She might know more about the island and its power then he does.

The question I was waiting for Harry to ask was, "What if she asks me to break your accords?" but he was too dumb to ask that.  I wonder if there could be a favor exchange going on as part of this book - Mab asks Lara to get someone gacked and she uses Thomas for the job earning Mab's favor, then uses said favor to get Harry to get Thomas off the hook for said gacking….
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: edf on July 10, 2020, 09:51:10 PM
The question I was waiting for Harry to ask was, "What if she asks me to break your accords?" but he was too dumb to ask that.  I wonder if there could be a favor exchange going on as part of this book - Mab asks Lara to get someone gacked and she uses Thomas for the job earning Mab's favor, then uses said favor to get Harry to get Thomas off the hook for said gacking….

Mab essentially did answer that:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 11, 2020, 04:34:57 AM
Yes, that was clear enough, and remember Mab cannot lie.
Title: Re: Chapter 6 Drop
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 11, 2020, 08:15:03 AM
Mab will therefore hold Lara responsible for the misuse of Harry in breach of the Accords, not Harry Lara should know this. It means that Harry will likely be asked to act in breach of the Accords, but he will figure out some way to turn the situation around. This is why I like the “set up” scenario, if Harry exposes that it is a set up, then neither he nor Lara have breached the Accords, it is the person responsible for the set up who would be held responsible by Mab.