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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: magical_liopleurodon on June 30, 2020, 06:39:40 PM

Title: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on June 30, 2020, 06:39:40 PM
omg omg omg
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on June 30, 2020, 06:59:08 PM

  Can you spell...
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Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Uriel_spook on June 30, 2020, 07:03:03 PM
The pressure cooker is certainly building 5 chapters in - looking forward to next week!
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: SpacedCowboy on June 30, 2020, 07:20:39 PM

To be honest, one of the features I like least about the series is Harry’s wallowing in self-blame. He blames himself for pretty much everything bad that happens to anyone, and a little of that can be endearing, but overload it too much and you start to take agency away from others.

Murphy was there because she chose to be there, and due to a whole bunch of involvement with her and Harry leading up to it. Sure, if she’d never met Harry, she’d not have been there, but the choices she made since meeting Harry were her own, sometimes pointedly so when Harry tried to protect her.

It’s a small niggle, I love the books, but it gets a bit old reading the same reaction, especially regarding women. *They think too*, Harry!

(rant over :) )

Seems like the pace of the books isn’t diminishing. We’re 5 chapters in and just about everything that could apply pressure to Harry *has* applied pressure. Can’t wait for the 14th :)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on June 30, 2020, 07:23:39 PM
I didn't think that Harry and Murphy suspected that Rudolph worked for Marcone.  It was pretty clear in Changes that he was unknowingly working for the Red Court.  I suppose Rudolph can just be generally corrupt and work for the highest bidder. 

I have a few ideas about who might be behind this. 

We know of two people who have influence in local government, Lara and Marcone.  We know Lara has a relative at the DA's office, Tania.  Marcone probably has a DA on payroll too.

Nicodemus would know where to point the cops and has reason to go after both Harry and Murphy.

Mab, would also know where to point the cops, and isn't above blackmailing Harry to do her bidding.

Mavra, has used pictures of Murphy to blackmail Harry in the past.  I don't know how she would know about the bank job, but it is possible.  It's kind unlikely because Harry knows Kemmler's method of dealing with the Black Court.

Lastly, given what Ebenezer said, someone working for either the white or black council.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: edf on June 30, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
For some reason I had this rather odd thought while reading through this when they were discussing Murphy's healing.  Neither wizard magic nor medicine hold the answer, but there are other ways Murphy could be made viable again.  The most obvious would be doing what Dresden did when he broke his bad.  She could take up either Knight mantle. Mab wouldn't easily relinquish her claim on Dresden, but we haven't really seen much out of the Summer Knight lately.  The current Summer Lady may even believe she owns Dresden a favor worthy of allowing him to recommend Murphy as Fix's replacement if something where to happen to him in the next book or two.

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on June 30, 2020, 08:27:18 PM
For some reason I had this rather odd thought while reading through this when they were discussing Murphy's healing.  Neither wizard magic nor medicine hold the answer, but there are other ways Murphy could be made viable again.  The most obvious would be doing what Dresden did when he broke his bad.  She could take up either Knight mantle. Mab wouldn't easily relinquish her claim on Dresden, but we haven't really seen much out of the Summer Knight lately.  The current Summer Lady may even believe she owns Dresden a favor worthy of allowing him to recommend Murphy as Fix's replacement if something where to happen to him in the next book or two.

 Taking up the Summer Knight's mantle would put her at odds with Harry.  Not only that, but her main objection to being a Holy Knight was being an occasional sock puppet for the Almighty.  That would be total freedom compared to the Summer Knight's mantle...  That's assuming that it is as hard to control as the Winter mantle is.

Marcone has his fingers in lots of pies, including the police.   
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on June 30, 2020, 08:37:09 PM
I may be totally wrong, but I don't see Marcone blackmailing Harry, specially not in a way that threatens Murphy. I think Marcone know that is very dangerous for his own sake.
I've felt so sorry for Murphy...the Dresdenverse needs healing potions right now.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: spiritofair on June 30, 2020, 08:42:58 PM
The Rudolph part is weird. I'm surprised nothing happened to him after being a pawn for the Reds in Changes... but then, I'm not sure why I'm surprised. I never thought about how that would play out.

I think the Fomor have gotten to him. Why not? First the reds, then the Fomor. But there is a Black Council person behind both of the contacts. That person passed his info to the Reds, and now that the Reds are gone, passed it on to the Fomor.

Count me as one that believes the "Wrote Murphy's Funeral" line. There will be a funeral. She'll probably die, but maybe she'll go into hiding or take up a mantle. Both would explain why she wasn't at Christmas Eve.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magnuskn on June 30, 2020, 08:49:43 PM
I also don't think that Marcone would use the cops to go after Harry. That's simply not his style, he's a hands-on man.

I also feel bad for Murphy, but I somehow don't see this state lasting for long. It would be profoundly difficult for her to adapt to a role where she is kept on the sideline from the action.

I also don't see Jim killing her off, because that also would be deeply disrespectful to the character ("Outlived her utility? Off she goes, for a bigger guilt trip for Harry!") and this isn't the style of writing Jim uses. Although I still suspect that employment with Vadderung may be in her future, to pay off the set-up in Ghost Story.

At least she and Harry are getting some action. It's pretty much time after sixteen books!
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: raidem on June 30, 2020, 09:37:12 PM
Hurray for Murphy and Dresden.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on June 30, 2020, 09:41:03 PM
This chapter made me think about something we saw, or thought we saw, in the trailer; Harry and Lara starting to get it on.  Then we saw Warden Ramirez start to accuse Harry of being under Lara's influence.  At least that's what we're supposed to think.  There are alternate explanations for both scenes.  The scene with Harry and Lara could be an illusion or even a dream scene.  Ramirez could be referring to something else besides the short scene we saw with Harry and Lara.

However, if Lara does put her her arms around Harry's neck and if they kiss or touch skin in any way, what does it say if Lara doesn't get burned the way her cousin Madeline did when she was forced to touch Justine?  Harry and Murphy aren't truly in love, or does the Winter Knight's mantel deaden true love?  Then again, maybe Lara will get burned and we just didn't see it in the trailer.  What do you think? 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on June 30, 2020, 10:10:22 PM
Unless Murph and Harry really do it, they won't be protected anyways. But I think the scene is a dream or something Lara is projecting on Harry's mind.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on June 30, 2020, 10:32:32 PM
Harry should have fed Rudolf to the Ick. I'm tired of the character.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on June 30, 2020, 10:38:40 PM
I hope Jim is going to give us the satisfaction of a revenge. I actually would like to see Rudolh humiliated, scared, instead of physically hurt. For example, have Eb soulgazing him  :)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on June 30, 2020, 10:47:31 PM
Harry Should lure him out to demon reach and put him jail. 

As for Murphy, I think she could become a valkyrie or an einherjar.  She turned down Gard's offer she was healthy, but she isn't any more.  Also she links Marcone and Monoc together, which is true, but just the tip of the ice berg.  Maybe Harry will tell that she's all ready fought with Vaderung twice.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: knightedbishop on June 30, 2020, 11:46:22 PM
I don’t think Marcone is behind this. He accepted the weregild from Harry with the agreement that he would leave the heist gang alone, Murphy included. Marcone is a crook, but he is an honorable crook and he doesn’t go back on his word. And even if he was inclined to, I think he is recognizes that people who go back on their word in the supernatural world are not looked on kindly.

I would have a harder time figuring out who might not have bought Rudolph. He’s a scumbag with naked ambition and poor impulse control. Whoever is pulling his strings, I doubt he even knows their true identity. Anyone using Rudolph would not see him as anything more than an expendable tool.

I think Murphy dying and coming back as an Einherjar sounds likely. Like the faerie mantles, she has been trained and built a relationship with the Einherjar over time. I can see her dying heroically, and Gard being there to escort her to Valhalla. She’ll be out of the picture for a while, and then return for the BAT, Murphy the White to turn the tide.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 01, 2020, 12:00:13 AM
I think Bob and Butters are going to do some developments in medicine for wizards  :D
I don't think that is what will "save" Murph, but I think they will do it anyway. I agree Murphy will become a Valkyrie or something like that.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 12:17:49 AM
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I also don't see Jim killing her off, because that also would be deeply disrespectful to the character ("Outlived her utility? Off she goes, for a bigger guilt trip for Harry!") and this isn't the style of writing Jim uses. Although I still suspect that employment with Vadderung may be in her future, to pay off the set-up in Ghost Story.

Depends on the story line, would it be more disrespectful to kill off Murphy than it was to kill off Susan or even Morgan?  If she dies, it all depends on the context of her death, heroic saving Harry and having a lot to do with saving the world?  Good death..  And sadly characters do outlive their utility and have to move on, and that doesn't mean killing them off. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2020, 01:38:24 AM
This chapter made me think about something we saw, or thought we saw, in the trailer; Harry and Lara starting to get it on.  Then we saw Warden Ramirez start to accuse Harry of being under Lara's influence.  At least that's what we're supposed to think.  There are alternate explanations for both scenes.  The scene with Harry and Lara could be an illusion or even a dream scene.  Ramirez could be referring to something else besides the short scene we saw with Harry and Lara.

However, if Lara does put her her arms around Harry's neck and if they kiss or touch skin in any way, what does it say if Lara doesn't get burned the way her cousin Madeline did when she was forced to touch Justine?  Harry and Murphy aren't truly in love, or does the Winter Knight's mantel deaden true love?  Then again, maybe Lara will get burned and we just didn't see it in the trailer.  What do you think?
Lara has more control than Madeline or Thomas with Justine as we saw in White Night. She only got burned at the end when she started to feed but they shared a kiss before that. Thomas explained it in turn coat.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: TrueMonk on July 01, 2020, 03:13:37 AM
I hope Jim is going to give us the satisfaction of a revenge. I actually would like to see Rudolh humiliated, scared, instead of physically hurt. For example, have Eb soulgazing him  :)

I had not thought about that, but I guess that would be a really horrible thing to experience. The more I think about it the worse I think it would be. A good candidate for a Rudolph experience

I think there is actually som e progression in Harrys self criticism. Here it feels like, yes, he does feel bad, but he is also conscious about it not really being his fault. That is a pretty big step forward from earlier I think.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Yuillegan on July 01, 2020, 03:53:03 AM
Harry should have fed Rudolf to the Ick. I'm tired of the character.

Agreed. I know Jim likes to add problems to Harry's life, and this is an excellent way to do it but Rudolph is seriously one-dimensional. Has zero redeeming qualities. He is almost cartoonish. I would far prefer if he had developed more. If he at least had no redeeming features he could at least have some more understandable ones.

Secondly, I think it is clear this police scrutiny is a misdirect. Harry and Murphy (unless I am much mistaken) have never discussed Rudy being on Marcone's payroll. Jim has conveniently shoved that in so that Harry will head for Marcone. But Marcone is the least likely person to do it. Harry already paid the weregild for the murdered employee, and he wanted Harry to break into the vault so he isn't going to go after him for that. He knows Harry is chaos made manifest and the last thing he would want when holding (perhaps career defining) summit is for it to go tits up. So he isn't likely to be the one antagonizing Dresden. But someone wants them to be upset with each other.

Someone is well aware of Harry's animosity with Marcone, and Harry's incredibly predictable overreaction to having a woman (particularly a lover but in general a close female) threatened. Beyond that, Marcone has made a lot of enemies (not merely mortal ones either) who are especially keen for the king to fall. Likely, this is part of the same plot that Ebenezer just a chapter before hand just warned Harry about. The sucker punch is coming and all this is to keep Harry distracted.

I would say this is all Black Council/the Circle influenced. Maybe it's the Fomor acting on their behalf, perhaps it's someone else. But behind it all it smells like the Black Council.

Nicodemus does have a lot to gain...but to be honest he wouldn't rely on the mortal authorities. He would just send a hitter. Much more his style. This feels a lot more like Mavra or Lara or even the White Council pulling strings. But you can bet it is related to the impending vote to remove him as a wizard AND to the imminent peace talks.

If I were gunning for Harry, I would attack him in all his weak spots all at once (assuming I had the resources). Go after Thomas, Maggie, Eb, The Carpenters, Murphy, all his usual allies. And attack in multiple ways. Use the legal system, send hit men, attack the Council etc. Divide and conquer tactics. Put so much on Harry's plate that he is bound to lose a few loved ones and allies. Hit Demonreach and the Gates, do whatever it takes. All the while, you set up an ace in the hole. An unstoppable assault that Harry won't see until it's too late. Like an invading army being prepared. You want to keep him off balance and tired so that he misses things. So that he can't catch his breath. You want his allies so under pressure they can't aid him. You want him worried. And during all this, you set things up so that his allies start distrusting each other, perhaps even him and vice versa.

Which is precisely what the MO of the Black Court is, or roundabouts. Harry is getting better at predicting the sucker punch now (perhaps he has cottoned onto his cruel god Butcher's methods). But I think he won't this time. I think this is all about to go sideways.

On an unrelated note, while I did enjoy this chapter I did have some issues with it but also some positives:
1. I like that Harry can cook now. He mostly seemed to eat takeout and frozen food before hand. Small victories!

2. Harry's constant need to be chivalrous isn't endearing anymore. It's sort of weird. I like that he was respectful and careful of his lover. Kudos to Jim for chucking that in. But, treating Murphy like she is some ceramic doll is just bad. She is old enough to know what she likes and what she can take. Checking in is very healthy, but listening is important too. It's fine for him to not be comfortable with hurting her, as a gut reaction. But I just found the whole scene odd.

3. On that topic, we have been waiting bloody years for this and the most we get is PG-13. Step it up Butcher! Especially if she is about to die...

4. Loved the humor. We haven't had enough of that in recent books. It wasn't necessarily a laugh out loud chapter but I enjoyed the interactions.

5. Harry's answer when Murphy asked if she could be healed was...crap. Utter trash. He might not know how but there are Wizards who know a LOT more. Like his friend Listens-to-Wind. Worse than that, as a person who just magically fixed his back injury, it was more than rude that he didn't offer to try and look for a solution. He just casually dismissed it. Nope, no cure. Only sell your soul. What rubbish. When Susan became a half-vampire he spent YEARS looking for a cure. Does Murphy have to get cancer or bitten by a vampire for Dresden to pull his finger out? It's fine to be realistic (although I would argue he was being pessimistic) but why doesn't he try harder? This isn't the old Dresden. Not to mention, WHY is it that magic is so bad a healing? Harry has bent gravity, manipulates elemental forces, breaks into minds and souls etc. He can even cross space-time and travel across the world like walking through a door (followed by some confusing and sometimes semi-dangerous terrain). But knitting skin and bone together is hard? Repairing ligaments is hard? I get that JB needs Murphy to be injured for the story. But the reasons stated for healing being tricky have NEVER been very convincing. I am not sure why either. It isn't hard to work into a relatively hard magic premise. The things modern science can do now is already incredible. I would expect wizards to at least be that good, if not better. But Harry won't look anyway.

6. I love the realness of the character interactions. Something Butcher does very, VERY well. That's what draws you in, makes it real. The stuff about how family interactions are difficult for Dresden is particularly good, as he isn't used to it yet. The big dynamic is much harder when you have skin in the game.

7. Why did Murphy's doctor violate patient confidentiality? She could get sued and even lose her licence. Seems very weird to me.

8. On coming out of the vault Harry says they are blurry and translucent. They shouldn't be recognizable on camera. And what happened to camera's not working near Dresden? Or has magic decided it can work around him now?

9. They don't have to use the normal system to make this investigation go away. They could pull strings of their own. But even if they want to go the mundane route, those cops don't have EVIDENCE. Which you need. To convict.

10. They probably need to accept they are no longer regular humans. They don't work within regular boundaries. And they can ill afford to go to prison. Harry has all the tools he needs to convince them of the supernatural or make their case fall apart, or convince the cops to back off. But despite all that, I love the additional set up. More pressure for Harry!

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: SerScot on July 01, 2020, 03:58:36 AM
Didn’t the chapter where Eb warned Harry they were trying to kick him off the White Council say he’d been forbidden to wear the grey cloak of a Warden?  If so, the trailer has him in a Warden’s cloak several times.  Does this mean the White Council part of the plot gets resolved early?
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Yuillegan on July 01, 2020, 04:04:00 AM
Not that I read. Just said they intend to strip him of his membership. Harry responds that first they bully him into wearing the cloak, now they want him out.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 04:43:31 AM
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1. I like that Harry can cook now. He mostly seemed to eat takeout and frozen food before hand. Small victories!

He isn't eating just for him now, he has a little growing mouth to feed..  Charity would tear him apart if he fed little Maggie on takeout and prefab frozen food.
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5. Harry's answer when Murphy asked if she could be healed was...crap. Utter trash. He might not know how but there are Wizards who know a LOT more. Like his friend Listens-to-Wind. Worse than that, as a person who just magically fixed his back injury, it was more than rude that he didn't offer to try and look for a solution. He just casually dismissed it. Nope, no cure. Only sell your soul. What rubbish. When Susan became a half-vampire he spent YEARS looking for a cure. Does Murphy have to get cancer or bitten by a vampire for Dresden to pull his finger out? It's fine to be realistic (although I would argue he was being pessimistic) but why doesn't he try harder? This isn't the old Dresden. Not to mention, WHY is it that magic is so bad a healing? Harry has bent gravity, manipulates elemental forces, breaks into minds and souls etc. He can even cross space-time and travel across the world like walking through a door (followed by some confusing and sometimes semi-dangerous terrain). But knitting skin and bone together is hard? Repairing ligaments is hard? I get that JB needs Murphy to be injured for the story. But the reasons stated for healing being tricky have NEVER been very convincing. I am not sure why either. It isn't hard to work into a relatively hard magic premise. The things modern science can do now is already incredible. I would expect wizards to at least be that good, if not better. But Harry won't look anyway.

But Murphy is in her forties now, ligaments and bone do not heal as quickly and easily as they once did.  Parts also wear out, Murphy worked her joins hard over the years, cartilage wears away, knees
can be replaced, true..  I play pickle ball with friends who've had them replaced.. But the years cannot be replaced,  a torn up knee has ruined may a pro career.
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7. Why did Murphy's doctor violate patient confidentiality? She could get sued and even lose her licence. Seems very weird to me.

Agreed, maybe with a warrant?  Most likely they never asked the doctor.. They weren't there on police business either, they either hacked the records from the computer or broke in to steal them on someone else's behalf.
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8. On coming out of the vault Harry says they are blurry and translucent. They shouldn't be recognizable on camera. And what happened to camera's not working near Dresden? Or has magic decided it can work around him now?

Because there were others in on the job, taking pictures for insurance, it is all about blackmail. 
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9. They don't have to use the normal system to make this investigation go away. They could pull strings of their own. But even if they want to go the mundane route, those cops don't have EVIDENCE. Which you need. To convict.
They weren't there on police business, after he recovers from the glow of sex Harry will figure that out.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 01, 2020, 05:02:43 AM
@Yuillegan, I agree with 5, that is why I mentioned Butters and Bob. I really believe that Harry needs to try harder, for instance, as you say, asking LTW but I would also asked other people. For example, I would ask Molly. Perhaps Murphy can make a deal with Molly, there is no need to sell the soul, there are other prices that can be paid, perhaps by Harry. There is also the Shroud. It did not save the comatose girl but perhaps it can do something with broken legs.
And did Harry at least asked Bonea? Alfred (as far as we know, there could be magical herbs in Demonrach)? I am not saying a total cure but perhaps something to help her?
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magnuskn on July 01, 2020, 05:44:06 AM
Depends on the story line, would it be more disrespectful to kill off Murphy than it was to kill off Susan or even Morgan?  If she dies, it all depends on the context of her death, heroic saving Harry and having a lot to do with saving the world?  Good death..  And sadly characters do outlive their utility and have to move on, and that doesn't mean killing them off.

I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2020, 06:48:41 AM
I see no reason to take that tweet necessarily literal. “It’s your funeral” is a well known idiom.

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on July 01, 2020, 06:58:16 AM
I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.

Jim is all about the cliches, haha
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 10:41:18 AM
I mean, just as she and Harry are really getting together? This would be so cliché that I just can't believe Jim would do it. Not to mention his little tweet from a few years ago, where he said that he just wrote Murphy's funeral. There's this little trope where writers troll their audience when they set up the expectation that a cliché would happen and then subvert that expectation. I strongly feel that this is one of those times.

We'll know in two weeks, anyway.

  He has done it before, so who knows?  All I am saying that if she dies and it fits the story line
it is no more disrespectful that when Susan died.  Now I want to know, is he
having unprotected sex yet again? 

I don't think there are any magical wizard cures for Murphy.  LTW's medical degrees are all from
vanilla medical schools if I remember correctly.  Wizards heal more quickly because of their make up not because of any magical medicine.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2020, 11:01:39 AM
  He has done it before, so who knows?  All I am saying that if she dies and it fits the story line
it is no more disrespectful that when Susan died.  Now I want to know, is he
having unprotected sex yet again? 

I don't think there are any magical wizard cures for Murphy.  LTW's medical degrees are all from
vanilla medical schools if I remember correctly.  Wizards heal more quickly because of their make up not because of any magical medicine.
If I remember correctly the more they use magic the faster they heal, it might even be woj.

Mab did it with Harry. Odin gave the ability to Gard. 

It is possible but you need a lot of power and you might get a mantle of some sort and those things don't come cheap. That is the Faustian deal mentioned.

But maybe you can encourage healing with magic. Elaine did something small in white night and I imagine Listen to Winds knows all about it. It must be possible to help the regeneration process a bit.   

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magnuskn on July 01, 2020, 11:53:21 AM
  He has done it before, so who knows?  All I am saying that if she dies and it fits the story line
it is no more disrespectful that when Susan died.  Now I want to know, is he
having unprotected sex yet again? 

I don't think there are any magical wizard cures for Murphy.  LTW's medical degrees are all from
vanilla medical schools if I remember correctly.  Wizards heal more quickly because of their make up not because of any magical medicine.

I don't see the build up for such a "final storyline" for Murphy, though. Susan had a lot of things going on which led to her ultimate act of self-sacrifice. Murphy, at this time, is reconvelascing from her wounds and needs to adapt to her current situation. Her and Harry difnally being able to have a romantic relationship is still building up. I just don't see her character arc making her be someone to be taken out of the story.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 12:19:53 PM
I don't see the build up for such a "final storyline" for Murphy, though. Susan had a lot of things going on which led to her ultimate act of self-sacrifice. Murphy, at this time, is reconvelascing from her wounds and needs to adapt to her current situation. Her and Harry difnally being able to have a romantic relationship is still building up. I just don't see her character arc making her be someone to be taken out of the story.

  You could be right, however just a reminder, in the trailer we had a scene where Murphy was removing her cast.   I doubt she was doing that because it was making her itch.  So obviously in Murphy fashion she is going to try and go out to fight along side of Harry or to save Harry.  Now she might find sans cast she isn't going anywhere.. Or she goes and is ineffective because she is about forty percent physically able to do so, gets further injured or killed in the process.  What would really be phony is suddenly by some miracle she is fully healed.  As far as her doing things that could lead to her demise, she isn't unlike Susan in that.  Only difference between them there is Murphy is a well trained warrior both in hand to hand and with a fire arm, Susan wasn't.  Once she got vamp power she was better for sure, but Susan was never trained in combat.  Now Murphy can still shoot, but that depends on whether or not she can physically get herself in position to fight.  Part of what has made her attractive to a lot of her fans is her ability to kick ass, if she becomes confined to a "desk" job or equivalent, things could change.  Actually there are hints in the chapter that if she has to adjust to that it isn't going to be easy for her, and it will affect her relationship with Harry.  In my
opinion Jim has been struggling with what to do with her since she was removed from the police force.   I guess he could make her a police chief, that might work.
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It is possible but you need a lot of power and you might get a mantle of some sort and those things don't come cheap. That is the Faustian deal mentioned.

But maybe you can encourage healing with magic. Elaine did something small in white night and I imagine Listen to Winds knows all about it. It must be possible to help the regeneration process a bit.   

There in lies the rub as they say, Murphy cannot stand to be controlled by anyone, she has her own ideas so a Faustian bargain would spell disaster for her.   

What Elaine did with Harry if that what you are talking about wasn't so much magic as kind of a yoga treatment to relieve Harry's head pain.  I have to go back to reread that, but I believe that is what she said, don't think it could heal the real damage Murphy suffered.  Also keep in mind she was doing her thing on another wizard. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 01, 2020, 12:37:30 PM
@Yuillegan
Why is IA investigating Murphy? She isn't, and hasn't been a cop for a while.  And I would generate a permanent revenue stream collecting money from a doctor who discusses my treatment with a cop.  And unless they are attempting to connect her to illegal street fighting why does it matter how she was hurt?  Nothing in her injuries admits to a crime per se.  This is a very poorly motivated chapter.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: GWPfark on July 01, 2020, 12:40:23 PM
Put me in the Murphy gets the Summer Knight mantle. It fits her. She is about helping others and preventing bad things. The Queens know bad things are coming and Twitch isn't up to the job. Murphy and Dresden are used to working together and it would also technically put them back in an adversarial role. Screw with Harry's love life while twisting the foreshadowing of Murphy becoming a Knight. Just now one of the Cross. And I am betting Rudolph is no longer a cop by the end of these books.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2020, 01:23:23 PM
@Yuillegan
Why is IA investigating Murphy? She isn't, and hasn't been a cop for a while.  And I would generate a permanent revenue stream collecting money from a doctor who discusses my treatment with a cop.  And unless they are attempting to connect her to illegal street fighting why does it matter how she was hurt?  Nothing in her injuries admits to a crime per se.  This is a very poorly motivated chapter.
Unless the supernatural movers behind the scene just have more influence there. They can not be everywhere and IA catched their attention because of Harry.

Also remember Cold Days and the use of the small folk against Harry? Using IA against Harry might just be their evil sense of humor or even balance.

 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 01:56:31 PM
@Yuillegan
Why is IA investigating Murphy? She isn't, and hasn't been a cop for a while.  And I would generate a permanent revenue stream collecting money from a doctor who discusses my treatment with a cop.  And unless they are attempting to connect her to illegal street fighting why does it matter how she was hurt?  Nothing in her injuries admits to a crime per se.  This is a very poorly motivated chapter.

  It is obviously phony, just because they claim it is a police investigation doesn't mean that it is.  Remember back in Skin Game Harry worried that all the blood and mayhem around the bank would attract attention, and he was assured, I cannot remember by whom, that there was a very good clean up crew and cover up.  No, I think there is someone on the inside trying to blackmail Harry, Binder maybe?  Also let us not forget the final scene at Marcone's place where Harry confronted Mab.
She wasn't a very happy with either Harry or Molly, she wouldn't do anything overt, but she might covertly to put her Knight in his place.
Quote
Put me in the Murphy gets the Summer Knight mantle. It fits her. She is about helping others and preventing bad things. The Queens know bad things are coming and Twitch isn't up to the job. Murphy and Dresden are used to working together and it would also technically put them back in an adversarial role. Screw with Harry's love life while twisting the foreshadowing of Murphy becoming a Knight. Just now one of the Cross. And I am betting Rudolph is no longer a cop by the end of these books.

I just don't see it, simply because Murphy thinks independently..  Harry gets by with it to a degree with Mab because of who he is, but he still has to find a way to follow orders.  Remember Murphy is in her current state because she didn't agree with the rules governing the use of the Holy Swords.  I think she will last through this book and possibly die in the next..  I see her working for Uriel along side her father after her death.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: g33k on July 01, 2020, 02:24:59 PM
For some reason I had this rather odd thought while reading through this when they were discussing Murphy's healing.  Neither wizard magic nor medicine hold the answer, but there are other ways Murphy could be made viable again.  The most obvious would be doing what Dresden did when he broke his bad.  She could take up either Knight mantle. Mab wouldn't easily relinquish her claim on Dresden, but we haven't really seen much out of the Summer Knight lately.  The current Summer Lady may even believe she owns Dresden a favor worthy of allowing him to recommend Murphy as Fix's replacement if something where to happen to him in the next book or two.


No, Harry mentions the idea -- "getting Faustian" -- and Murphy shuts that down "firmly."
 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 02:57:52 PM


No, Harry mentions the idea -- "getting Faustian" -- and Murphy shuts that down "firmly."

  One of the things her fans seem to like the most is that Murphy is a simple vanilla human.  Making her suddenly Summer Knight or an Einherjar kind of goes against that, and her own religion as far as that goes.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Snark Knight on July 01, 2020, 04:38:30 PM
I didn't think that Harry and Murphy suspected that Rudolph worked for Marcone.  It was pretty clear in Changes that he was unknowingly working for the Red Court.  I suppose Rudolph can just be generally corrupt and work for the highest bidder. 

I kind of doubt Marcone is actually behind it. It seems like accepting the weregild and then sending crooked cops after Harry anyway would be a violation of his standards of conduct. He might order a hit for an unrelated reason at any time, but using something he's already accepted payment to settle? Seems inconsistent for him.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Snark Knight on July 01, 2020, 05:08:36 PM
I don't think there are any magical wizard cures for Murphy.  LTW's medical degrees are all from vanilla medical schools if I remember correctly.  Wizards heal more quickly because of their make up not because of any magical medicine.

The Alphas seem to have figured out limited adaptations of shapeshifting to healing. They can close wounds quickly - it's not perfect and leaves considerable scars, but that's better than the alternative. But it's not clear Murphy has even the limited potential it would take to learn the werewolf spell, or that their healing would do her any good by the time she put in the years of practice to catch up to the Alphas.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Vriah on July 01, 2020, 05:10:58 PM
Not to mention, WHY is it that magic is so bad a healing? Harry has bent gravity, manipulates elemental forces, breaks into minds and souls etc. He can even cross space-time and travel across the world like walking through a door (followed by some confusing and sometimes semi-dangerous terrain). But knitting skin and bone together is hard? Repairing ligaments is hard? I get that JB needs Murphy to be injured for the story. But the reasons stated for healing being tricky have NEVER been very convincing. I am not sure why either. It isn't hard to work into a relatively hard magic premise. The things modern science can do now is already incredible. I would expect wizards to at least be that good, if not better. But Harry won't look anyway.

The things modern science can do now are incredible - but the methods of getting there left a lot of dead patients along the way. And modern medicine still has a huge mortality rate despite all of our advances. In a system where the governing force of magic is famously unforgiving of things like mistakes and accidents, I can understand how medical magic would advance at a snail's pace. If you're using magic to heal a patient and mess up, you've just violated the First Law. Muggle medicine has thousands of doctors and researchers to advance their practices - wizards have a handful of people that all risk the death penalty if their experiment in cell regeneration goes wrong.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 05:45:02 PM
The things modern science can do now are incredible - but the methods of getting there left a lot of dead patients along the way. And modern medicine still has a huge mortality rate despite all of our advances. In a system where the governing force of magic is famously unforgiving of things like mistakes and accidents, I can understand how medical magic would advance at a snail's pace. If you're using magic to heal a patient and mess up, you've just violated the First Law. Muggle medicine has thousands of doctors and researchers to advance their practices - wizards have a handful of people that all risk the death penalty if their experiment in cell regeneration goes wrong.

We are also talking a forty or forty plus woman,  age affects extent and length of recovery.  There are amazing noninvasive types of surgery now that account for swift recovery.  Joint replacement is also being perfected,  I find it odd that if Murphy's knee is as bad as described they don't just replace it.
Quote
The Alphas seem to have figured out limited adaptations of shapeshifting to healing. They can close wounds quickly
Murphy isn't a shape shifting Alpha, they start out being able to manipulate their bodies from human to wolf..  Murphy is a forty year old vanilla human, she cannot manipulate any of her cells.  Don't know if it matters or not, but all the Alphas were also teenagers when they learned this spell, young bodies, more adaptable.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 01, 2020, 06:18:52 PM
I still think, Murphy will be taking up a coin some day.
There is the healing. Her being a ragged angel in the Sight, could be foreshadowing of a fallen angel.
And Harry's sex dream in Skin Game. This could have been a mislead. We were supposed to think it meant that Lasciel is back, but it could also have meant that Murphy will be one of the nickleheads soon. I have written that theory down somewhere here.
I still have a feeling this wouldn't be so far fetched.

And it would screw up Harry so lovely.  ;)
Poor Harry.

And I loved the chapter. But they should have ignored the door.  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: edf on July 01, 2020, 06:48:19 PM
No, Harry mentions the idea -- "getting Faustian" -- and Murphy shuts that down "firmly."

That discussion is what made me think of it... Also, wasn't Summer described as the force that polices Winter?  Murphy has always put what needs to be done ahead of Harry (and other past relationships).  She makes a pretty good safeguard against Harry in a few ways.  Harry couldn't bring himself to use his might against her, but she doesn't have the same hangups (or priorities).
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: magnuskn on July 01, 2020, 06:50:02 PM
  One of the things her fans seem to like the most is that Murphy is a simple vanilla human.  Making her suddenly Summer Knight or an Einherjar kind of goes against that, and her own religion as far as that goes.

See Sanya and Butters how much that matters for supernatural powers. Also, Murphy being catholic hasn't featured for quite some time into her character.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Bad Alias on July 01, 2020, 06:56:58 PM
The Rudolph part is weird. I'm surprised nothing happened to him after being a pawn for the Reds in Changes.
That might be because Jim wanted to resolve it on screen. I know I want to read him getting his comeuppance. He's internal affairs, so CPD isn't likely to be investigating him, but we know a certain FBI agent who thinks he's dirty, and corruption cases is right up the FBI's ally.

Harry should have fed Rudolf to the Ick. I'm tired of the character.
:D

@Yuillegan: 5. The most straight forward way to heal is to transform damaged body parts into healthy body parts. To do this would take advanced medical knowledge. Way to much for Harry, but not to much for a wizard who focuses on healing. The big problem with that is it might run up against the second law of magic. One alternative is that Harry is looking, but hasn't said anything because he hasn't found anything, doesn't expect to, and doesn't want to give her false hope.

9. Don't talk to the cops. Innocent, guilty, whatever. You won't like the results. Murphy would know better and Harry should too. "Here's a picture of you from the day a guy got murdered. Why were you there?" If you're going to answer the question, do it with questions. "What day was it, what time was it, where was it?" Any other answer is basically saying "Yeah, I remember when and where I was when that guy died without reference to a date."

Agreed, maybe with a warrant?  Most likely they never asked the doctor.
A warrant is highly unlikely. I too think the cops were using a tried and true law enforcement tactic of lying.

And modern medicine still has a huge mortality rate despite all of our advances.
200,000 to 400,000 people a year die from medical mistakes. I'm not talking about "out best wasn't good enough," but "he died because he went to the doctor" mistakes. And that's probably not counting all the doctor's who start people off on pills that end up turning them into addicts who die. The numbers were from a John's Hopkins study and, I think, something from Harvard or some other ivy league school. So good point about the 1st law. Didn't even occur to me.

I think Murphy might end up making a Faustian bargain to get back in the game. Odin probably has the best prices. One doesn't have to be a Valkyrie or Einherjar to serve Odin or ask his favor. There's a chance Murphy could go to work for Monoc Securities as a vanilla mortal on the condition that she is healed.

I think we've all missed the most important part of IA's involvement. Somebody just went nuclear. They've involved mortals in a supernatural conflict. It'd be one thing if they were targeting Murphy to get at Harry. We've seen that sort of play at least twice before, not counting Changes where the perpetrator didn't live long enough to suffer the consequences. (Mavra in DB and the White Court in Jury Duty). Here, they're targeting Harry. Clearly part of the supernatural world and not the mortal world. We've heard that the masquerade is going to end. We've heard that it's starting to fray. Many have guessed this is the book for it.

Someone targeting Harry with IA makes me think it's even more likely this is where we're going.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 08:54:36 PM
@SpacedCowboy: Yeah, it's one of those things that's really irritating. And after Michael talked to him about it last book too! I get that IRL this stuff takes awhile to get rid of, but man, this is just getting to be too much. Also, she finds his chivalry endearing? Who are you and what have you done with Murphy?

With Rudolph I dunno, I can only think of a few options. I mean Harry and Murphy can be totally wrong about who it is, he could have switched hands w/o him knowing it, and even just a retcon. I don't think it's Marcone either, that feels counterproductive. Maybe it's the Fomor or Nicodemus even?

Yeah healing magic should have gotten a leg on modern medicine somewhere. Pretty disappointing that it hasn't.  Though I think it'd be fun to put Murphy and Harry at odds by making her the new Summer Knight. But yeah, not so fun since that would take away a great chunk of her agency. But yeah, if Butcher can't find a way to utilize her properly, then yeah, she'd probably die. Go out in a blaze of glory sure, but yeah probably die.

But yes Bob and Butters fixing that magic medicine issue right up would be amazing!

@Yuillegan: Yeah I'm not a fan of Rudolph mainly b/c he's so flat. It doesn't help that Harry keeps talking about the human power of denial. I read that line and went, 'op foreshadowing!'. Yeah, Harry can't really afford to have that sort of reaction anymore, especially since he's supposed to help keep the peace. Yeah, ok that's a good point about Nicodemus. I just picture the guy firing a rocket launcher at Harry's building, b/c at this point, he's got nothing to lose. But, hey maybe it's Mavra pointing cops at Harry and Murphy, she's done it before. Mind you it failed, but hey second time's the charm I suppose. That multiple hits, yeah we think alike in that regard.
 
2Yeah I'm like, no me gusta. Just too irritating for me. Agreed on 5, but that could be lessened by the fact that Harry has no idea what he's talking about.

I think we've all missed the most important part of IA's involvement. Somebody just went nuclear. They've involved mortals in a supernatural conflict. It'd be one thing if they were targeting Murphy to get at Harry. We've seen that sort of play at least twice before, not counting Changes where the perpetrator didn't live long enough to suffer the consequences. (Mavra in DB and the White Court in Jury Duty). Here, they're targeting Harry. Clearly part of the supernatural world and not the mortal world. We've heard that the masquerade is going to end. We've heard that it's starting to fray. Many have guessed this is the book for it.

Someone targeting Harry with IA makes me think it's even more likely this is where we're going.

That's very true. Maybe someone on the BC who got sick of Harry and has decided to do this on one of the most important supernatural events, prolly so they can oust Harry.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 01, 2020, 09:38:52 PM
@Yuillegan: 5. The most straight forward way to heal is to transform damaged body parts into healthy body parts. To do this would take advanced medical knowledge. Way to much for Harry, but not to much for a wizard who focuses on healing. The big problem with that is it might run up against the second law of magic.

Yeah, I think this is a big part of the relative weakness of (mortal) healing magic - the Faerie seem to be much more capable.

At least "gross anatomy" repairs (as opposed to messing with cells and DNA etc.) don't really seem to be that hard - the Alphas can close wounds, and they're quite weak talents with fairly limited training. Sure, the Alphas are healing only themselves, and that's probably easier. But the gap between their power level and training and someone like Listens-to-Wind is pretty colossal.

But closing wounds, mending ligaments, etc. technically is transforming another's body. Maybe it would be OK under the Second Law since it's only returning them to their natural pre-injury state... but before TC the White Council's mental defense training was terrible. This might be the same issue - where study of an area is discouraged by the Council since it was seen as approaching the edges of the Laws too closely.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 01, 2020, 09:47:58 PM
You know, there is a possibility that we aren't talking about.  Jim has hinted that the government has at least a clue of what's going on.  We've seen evidence of this in Dog Men.  Maybe the feds are pushing the investigation, so they can make Murphy an offer she can't refuse.  Come work for us and this investigation goes away. Maybe Uncle Sam can hook Murphy up with a clinical trial of stem cell treatments for her injuries.  This idea would be cool because it keeps Murphy a vanilla mortal, brings her back to something like law enforcement, and it could add more tension to Harry's relationship to her and to his relationship with the council.  It might even fit the funeral line, what if her new job is so secret that they fake death. 

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 01, 2020, 10:12:14 PM
I love that but...what is Dog Men? :o
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 01, 2020, 10:17:55 PM
Thanks.  It was the last Dresden Files comic published by Dynamite.  It was readable, but if you missed it, I wouldn't rush out to buy it.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 01, 2020, 10:45:20 PM
Ah, no, I did not read any comic. Thanks.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 10:52:47 PM
@Walter the skull: Ooooh, yeah that'd be great!
@Dina: Yeah, you're not missing much.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 10:59:25 PM
@Walter the skull: Ooooh, yeah that'd be great!
@Dina: Yeah, you're not missing much.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 11:00:28 PM
@Walter the skull: Ooooh, yeah that'd be great!
@Dina: Yeah, you're not missing much.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 11:05:36 PM
@Walter the skull: Ooooh, yeah that'd be great!
@Dina: Yeah, you're not missing much.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: forumghost on July 02, 2020, 12:22:49 AM
You know, there is a possibility that we aren't talking about.  Jim has hinted that the government has at least a clue of what's going on.  We've seen evidence of this in Dog Men.  Maybe the feds are pushing the investigation, so they can make Murphy an offer she can't refuse.  Come work for us and this investigation goes away. Maybe Uncle Sam can hook Murphy up with a clinical trial of stem cell treatments for her injuries.  This idea would be cool because it keeps Murphy a vanilla mortal, brings her back to something like law enforcement, and it could add more tension to Harry's relationship to her and to his relationship with the council.  It might even fit the funeral line, what if her new job is so secret that they fake death. 

Don't really see it myself. From what we know those guys think that all things from the magic side are equally in need of culling, and iirc we have a woj that they influenced things to shaft Murphy just for being friends with Harry. They probably consider her to have 'gone native' at this point.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 10:53:13 AM
See Sanya and Butters how much that matters for supernatural powers. Also, Murphy being catholic hasn't featured for quite some time into her character.

Like I said, they have none, they are still vanilla humans, but Murphy already rejected being a Holy Knight.   What is suggested for her,  Summer Knight, supernatural powers with the mantle or an Einherjar, a dead warrior.  If being a Holy Knight didn't fit her, then Summer Knight or Einherjar wouldn't, and would doom her being with Harry.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: GWPfark on July 02, 2020, 11:01:33 AM
.



No, Harry mentions the idea -- "getting Faustian" -- and Murphy shuts that down "firmly."


Murphy also has admitted to being lost. She is by nature a protector. That is the seeming role of the Summer Knight. Now, let be honest, it's not nice, but sometimes the police aren't either. Also, Murphy kind of exists as Harry's conscience. I am pretty sure Jim won't kill off two major supporting characters and he is playing up Murphys weakness. Jim is often foreshadowing. And remember the Sidhe can't lie. From Murphy's point of view, this is an opportunity to be there for Harry when needed, keep him from going to far off the deep end.

Now of course there will be a catch as well. And Harry and Murphy will suffer for it. But I fully admit I can be wrong. But this would be well within character. And a way Jim can keep Murphy in the story without being ineffective. Also from Summers point of view, Murphy is a master martial artist in a defense based martial art. She is tailor made for the job.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 01:39:41 PM

Murphy also has admitted to being lost. She is by nature a protector. That is the seeming role of the Summer Knight. Now, let be honest, it's not nice, but sometimes the police aren't either. Also, Murphy kind of exists as Harry's conscience. I am pretty sure Jim won't kill off two major supporting characters and he is playing up Murphys weakness. Jim is often foreshadowing. And remember the Sidhe can't lie. From Murphy's point of view, this is an opportunity to be there for Harry when needed, keep him from going to far off the deep end.

Now of course there will be a catch as well. And Harry and Murphy will suffer for it. But I fully admit I can be wrong. But this would be well within character. And a way Jim can keep Murphy in the story without being ineffective. Also from Summers point of view, Murphy is a master martial artist in a defense based martial art. She is tailor made for the job.

But what will she do if Titania demands that she kick Harry's butt?  Or he, her?  Sorry but that is way too predicable.  Murphy isn't the only source of conscience for Harry, there is Michael.  Going by the last book he made more sense than she did.  I think if she survives the next two books she will survive the series, however to quote a wonderful old movie called "Dodsworth," as "the old wife of a young husband.."   Or old girlfriend to a wizard just hitting his prime..  Murphy is also out of her depth here, her thought process is too narrow, she still thinks like a cop.  She dismisses the scene between Harry and Eb as normal family dynamics, to an extent it is, but with wizards and what happened in Harry's history, it isn't.   
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 02, 2020, 03:04:26 PM
Well, Mab cannot order Harry to hurt Murphy, so it would be a brilliant move for Titania to have her as her Knight-And Murphy will be willing to kick Harry if needed, she and Sarissa may probably take some measures so Titania cannot force her to really hurt Harry. At least, physically.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 03:17:36 PM
Well, Mab cannot order Harry to hurt Murphy, so it would be a brilliant move for Titania to have her as her Knight-And Murphy will be willing to kick Harry if needed, she and Sarissa may probably take some measures so Titania cannot force her to really hurt Harry. At least, physically.

Maybe not directly, but agendas differ and that makes all the difference in the world.  Fix has never been an enemy of Harry, in fact back in Summer Knight you'd think they might even have become friends, yet at the end of Cold Days he was trying to kill him because Maeve manipulated Lily into thinking Harry was out to get her.  Fix wasn't playing either, so if push came to shove Murphy might find herself in the same situation or Harry could.   I also think it would totally end any romance between them for the fans who've wanted that.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 02, 2020, 03:25:42 PM
I agree about the romance, and I don't think that is a problem. And about the rest, it could be interesting, like when Eleaine was the rival emmisary.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 04:13:09 PM
I agree about the romance, and I don't think that is a problem. And about the rest, it could be interesting, like when Eleaine was the rival emmisary.

Difference there though is Elaine was an old love and how she and Harry parted wasn't exactly how lovers usually part.  Harry/Murphy appears to be hot and on the way up so it could very well get in the way of things.  Actually it might bring back the dynamic we saw between them in the first couple of books.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Avernite on July 02, 2020, 04:28:26 PM
But what will she do if Titania demands that she kick Harry's butt?  Or he, her?  Sorry but that is way too predicable.  Murphy isn't the only source of conscience for Harry, there is Michael.  Going by the last book he made more sense than she did.  I think if she survives the next two books she will survive the series, however to quote a wonderful old movie called "Dodsworth," as "the old wife of a young husband.."   Or old girlfriend to a wizard just hitting his prime..  Murphy is also out of her depth here, her thought process is too narrow, she still thinks like a cop.  She dismisses the scene between Harry and Eb as normal family dynamics, to an extent it is, but with wizards and what happened in Harry's history, it isn't.

To be fair, I don't think 'go kick the other knight' is a common order; it's tantamount to a declaration of war between the courts.

STOP the other knight, though? That works, even if it's often lethal.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 06:08:39 PM
To be fair, I don't think 'go kick the other knight' is a common order; it's tantamount to a declaration of war between the courts.

STOP the other knight, though? That works, even if it's often lethal.


  I was speaking metaphorically,  but when one Knight goes to stop another it is more than waving a finger and saying,"tut, tut, don't do that."
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arctos on July 02, 2020, 06:24:46 PM
Doesn't Harry have the real Shroud right now, squirreled away somewhere?  Wasn't healing one of its supposed powers, back when we first met Nic?

Now I'm wondering if wrapping Murphy up in it is the funeral Butcher mentioned writing.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 02, 2020, 07:25:51 PM
Murphy may end up continuing to live with her injuries.  It happened to Micheal.  It would cause more emotional pain for Harry since he would end up seeing her suffer through recovery and set backs just a like anyone else.  People do end up regaining more function than doctors estimated from time to time.  If you think about it, as a doctor, its probably better to low ball the recovery estimate, to keep the patient from having false hope.   

Also at the end of Skin Game, didn't original doctor giver he a better prognosis?  I think Harry told Micheal that the doctor said she could get back to 90%. 

She might make out ok enough to be more than functional.

Lastly, Murphy won't make any deals to heal herself, but I think that depending on what the offer is, Harry might take a deal to make her better.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 02, 2020, 08:36:51 PM
Doesn't Harry have the real Shroud right now, squirreled away somewhere?  Wasn't healing one of its supposed powers, back when we first met Nic?

Now I'm wondering if wrapping Murphy up in it is the funeral Butcher mentioned writing.

I've mentioned the Shroud as an option, I don't understand why Harry did not mention it.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: vultur on July 02, 2020, 08:50:04 PM
  One of the things her fans seem to like the most is that Murphy is a simple vanilla human.  Making her suddenly Summer Knight or an Einherjar kind of goes against that, and her own religion as far as that goes.

I'll agree with the vanilla human part, but I don't think being Summer Knight would necessarily be a religious issue. From CD, the task is essentially to protect mortals from Winter - it seems that the SK bit about being the Court's assassin is kind of a cover story. And being the Knight doesn't require worshiping the Queen as a deity - Harry certainly doesn't worship Mab.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Snark Knight on July 02, 2020, 11:09:30 PM
Murphy isn't a shape shifting Alpha, they start out being able to manipulate their bodies from human to wolf..  Murphy is a forty year old vanilla human, she cannot manipulate any of her cells.  Don't know if it matters or not, but all the Alphas were also teenagers when they learned this spell, young bodies, more adaptable.

Sure, but there's never been a clear answer on how rare the ability to learn the wolf transformation really is. None of the Alphas have shown any magical ability other than that one thing, so it might be something relative vanilla's can still do with practice. Though, you're right, age might play a role too.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 02, 2020, 11:33:43 PM
Doesn't Harry have the real Shroud right now, squirreled away somewhere?  Wasn't healing one of its supposed powers, back when we first met Nic?

Now I'm wondering if wrapping Murphy up in it is the funeral Butcher mentioned writing.
That isn't the way the shroud was meant to be used. Is it?  In any case not everybody in the gang can make it through to the end.

On a different note, the accountant would have had to be alive when the gang entered the vault.  At least as far as the police are concerned. The body is going to have a different expired by date unless somebody pays off the medical examiner. Has this been mentioned? 

Also for all the bullets flying around the cops are going to be missing some bodies, like  those those shooters who turned into goop. Didn't they charge the police lines as a distraction?  And what was stolen that can be inventoried? 

They broke into a bank, had a multi hour shoot out where thousands of rounds were fired, murdered a guard by slicing him to pieces, and nothing from the vault was taken?  Really?  And the only people to be found are Harry and Murphy.  So everybody else just walked through the police lines and vanished like a fart in the wind?  And Murphy and Harry are so stupid that they leave DNA and fingerprints all over the scene?  And Murphy a smart veteran cop?  Color me dubious.

And last but not least, somebody pointed out on reddit that Rudolf was a shill for the Reds and not too bright.  Here was one reply.
Quote
priscellie
Resident Intellectus

Several betas pointed out to Jim that he was pretty explicitly working for Team Red King in Changes, but he kept it, so... ::shrug:: Maybe Marcone purchased his loyalty in bulk?

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 11:50:43 PM
Doesn't Harry have the real Shroud right now, squirreled away somewhere?  Wasn't healing one of its supposed powers, back when we first met Nic?

Now I'm wondering if wrapping Murphy up in it is the funeral Butcher mentioned writing.

No, I believe he turned that over to the Church.
Quote

I'll agree with the vanilla human part, but I don't think being Summer Knight would necessarily be a religious issue. From CD, the task is essentially to protect mortals from Winter - it seems that the SK bit about being the Court's assassin is kind of a cover story. And being the Knight doesn't require worshiping the Queen as a deity - Harry certainly doesn't worship Mab.
My point though is Murphy wouldn't subject herself to the rules surrounding being a Holy Knight and using a Holy Sword.  She has her own ideas, and I doubt she could conform well to being a Summer Knight.
Quote
Also at the end of Skin Game, didn't original doctor giver he a better prognosis?  I think Harry told Micheal that the doctor said she could get back to 90%. 

Yes, but treatments don't always go as planned, complications can always happen.  When they actually went into repair the damage, they found more than they thought there was.  Or as I said, Murphy has been very active over the years, her body has taken a lot of punishment from fights, there might be scar tissue build up.  Her hand to hand combat skills may have taken it's toll on the cartilage in her joints.  I'm surprised she isn't going in for joint replacement.  She may have had a post op infection which caused more damage. 
Quote
Murphy may end up continuing to live with her injuries.  It happened to Micheal.  It would cause more emotional pain for Harry since he would end up seeing her suffer through recovery and set backs just a like anyone else.  People do end up regaining more function than doctors estimated from time to time.  If you think about it, as a doctor, its probably better to low ball the recovery estimate, to keep the patient from having false hope.   

Murphy isn't Michael though, I cannot see her accepting being sidelined from the action.  The trailer shows she won't.

Quote
hey broke into a bank, had a multi hour shoot out where thousands of rounds were fired, murdered a guard by slicing him to pieces, and nothing from the vault was taken?  Really?  And the only people to be found are Harry and Murphy.  So everybody else just walked through the police lines and vanished like a fart in the wind?  And Murphy and Harry are so stupid that they leave DNA and fingerprints all over the scene?  And Murphy a smart veteran cop?  Color me dubious.


Me too,  as I said, they may be police, but they are not there on behalf of the police.  I think as soon as they recover from their moment of passion Harry and Murphy will realize that as well.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 03, 2020, 01:23:49 AM
Mira:  Post op infections suck.  It's a good point.  Murphy may not want to accept her new circumstances, and we do see her cut the cast, but for all we know she goes to stand up and falls.  I don't want Murphy to end up disabled, but it would really screw up Harry's world.  Who would he turn to for back up?  How does he handles being who he is, being a dad, and at least for a while a care taker?  How does he deal with something he can't even remotely influence?  We know Murphy's physicality is a large part of her character, so can she find another way to contribute?

Is it just me, or does this chapter seem to indicate a course change?  First Rudolph works for the reds, now its Marcone.  First Murphy is supposed to recover for the most part, and now she'll be lucky to walk normally. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: knightedbishop on July 03, 2020, 03:54:54 AM
I still maintain Marcone is not the one pulling Rudolph’s strings. Marcone is an honorable crime baron. He gave his word when he took the weregild to leave the heist gang alone. Also- Murphy was in the hospital when actual heist went down. She didn’t leave any finger prints anywhere in the bank. She wasn’t there.

I don’t think the Shroud is meant to heal Murphy. With these relics of Christianity intent seems to be a huge deal in their power. Wield a Sword for the right reason and it is a capital S Sword with the force of God Almighty behind it. Wield the Sword of Faith with the wrong intent and it is a sword of steel and nothing more. Murphy found that out the hard way. Harry has been thick headed about it, but has gotten smarter. I think he knows the Shroud isn’t for Murphy.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 03, 2020, 04:34:46 AM
He could still ask Father Forthill or Michael about the Shroud.

But you are right, Murphy was not there and she was in the hospital so she has an alibi so...what is happening here? And now she is worse for the wear? Something has definitely changing.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 03, 2020, 05:41:29 AM
The reds had a whole lot of saliva addicted and recently infected and other hangers on. They also had dealings with the Fomor, they were allies at the end of changes. They probably just took over. Rudolph is working for the fomor now.

You can set up a similar logic for the black council. They only had to know who the corrupt agents were to take over.

Alternatively Rudolph was always a black council tool and they just assisted the red court as they did on several occasions. Or the Fomor.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 03, 2020, 01:01:42 PM
Quote
I still maintain Marcone is not the one pulling Rudolph’s strings. Marcone is an honorable crime baron. He gave his word when he took the weregild to leave the heist gang alone. Also- Murphy was in the hospital when actual heist went down. She didn’t leave any finger prints anywhere in the bank. She wasn’t there.

   Just double checked, Harvey was killed before Murphy got injured and went to the hospital.  Marcone is involved in some way, we have the trailer, possibly he is being black mailed as well.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arctos on July 03, 2020, 01:40:55 PM
No, I believe he turned that over to the Church.
Nah, at the end of Skin Game Michael asks him if he ever considered turning the artifacts over to the church, and Harry's response is "All things considered?  Nope", I looked back and apparently he's got them in the deep tunnels of demonsreach.

As to whether or not that's how it's meant to be used, I dunno.  But I'd personally think God would smile upon a person using one of His artifacts to heal someone they love.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 03, 2020, 01:47:26 PM
Nah, at the end of Skin Game Michael asks him if he ever considered turning the artifacts over to the church, and Harry's response is "All things considered?  Nope", I looked back and apparently he's got them in the deep tunnels of demonsreach.
And Michael agreed so now Amorachius is there too now.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Bacail on July 03, 2020, 03:21:29 PM
Doesn't Harry have the real Shroud right now, squirreled away somewhere?  Wasn't healing one of its supposed powers, back when we first met Nic?

Now I'm wondering if wrapping Murphy up in it is the funeral Butcher mentioned writing.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the shroud is meant to heal Nemesis infection, not physical healing
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 03, 2020, 04:13:49 PM
@Bacail: Oh, that's cool. Yeah that'd be fun to see.
@knightedbishop: So who's blackmailing Marcone then?
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 03, 2020, 07:03:56 PM
Quote
Nah, at the end of Skin Game Michael asks him if he ever considered turning the artifacts over to the church, and Harry's response is "All things considered?  Nope", I looked back and apparently he's got them in the deep tunnels of demonsreach.

The Shroud was turned over at the end of Death Masks.  The other artifacts except for the Grail are safe in the tunnels of Demonreach.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: jsavoy on July 03, 2020, 07:12:14 PM
That was the fake shroud that was turned over in Death Masks.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 03, 2020, 07:42:54 PM
That was the fake shroud that was turned over in Death Masks.

 No, it was the real Shroud.  Harry allowed Marcone to try and heal the young woman with it, but it didn't.  Harry gave him three days to try because three days after He died, Christ was resurrected, that is when Harry also said that he didn't "think it worked like that." Then he instructed him to send it to St Mary's in care of Father Forthill, which apparently Marcone did. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 03, 2020, 08:09:29 PM
No, it was the real Shroud.  Harry allowed Marcone to try and heal the young woman with it, but it didn't.  Harry gave him three days to try because three days after He died, Christ was resurrected, that is when Harry also said that he didn't "think it worked like that." Then he instructed him to send it to St Mary's in care of Father Forthill, which apparently Marcone did.
According to Harry in Skin Game the one in death masks was false but still had power because so many people believing in it.

Quote
“Hey, is that the Shroud?”
“This one looks older and shabbier than the one you stole from the Church,” I said, rolling up the old cloth and stuffing it into my duster’s pocket. It was thin stuff, terribly thin, and made a smaller bundle than you’d think. “Hell, maybe that investigative panel was right. Maybe the Church does have a knockoff.”
“But I thought that one had power?” she asked.
“It did, but not like this.” My fingers still tingled from touching the cloth. “Besides, we’re talking about the power of faith, here,” I said.
“Enough people believe that the fake is really the Shroud, maybe that’s enough to make it powerful all by itself.”
“Seems like a cheat.”
“Don’t knock it,” I said.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 03, 2020, 08:48:32 PM
According to Harry in Skin Game the one in death masks was false but still had power because so many people believing in it.

Which is odd because in Death Masks if I remember correctly supposedly stollen was a fake, Harry knew about it, but the one the Marcone turned over supposedly was real.   Thanks for the quote, now I remember, it has been a rough afternoon.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 03, 2020, 11:52:47 PM
Since SG I am wondering why Harry did not lend Marcone the true Shroud to do the same than he did with the fake one.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 04, 2020, 12:16:20 AM
Since SG I am wondering why Harry did not lend Marcone the true Shroud to do the same than he did with the fake one.
They are not friends. They use each other.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 04, 2020, 12:32:17 AM
Dina: I was thinking about that too. 
Arjan: While Harry and Marcone aren't friends, Harry has no reason to want to little girl to be in a coma.

My best guess is that Harry either forgot, or couldn't find a way to get to Marcone that would keep the girl's existence a secret. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 04, 2020, 05:15:42 AM
Arjan, Harry would not have done that for Marcone but for the girl (but yes, he would have known a grateful Marcone would be useful). My problem is, Harry could have totally forgotten for a while but then in a couple of days he would have remembered So there is a reason for not doing it then? I don't see one (at least, not yet)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: forumghost on July 04, 2020, 06:08:03 AM
Maybe he just didn't want Marcone to know that there was a half-dozen magical WMD's within easy reach?
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 04, 2020, 06:17:33 AM
To keep the shroud safe it is better to keep it on the island at least until Harry knows more about the artifacts. They are big and dangerous.

Marcone most likely does not know what Harry brought from Hades and Harry would like to keep it that way.

Bringing it out and let it work for three days might attract enemies. Anduriel might be watching for just such an occasion and powerful entities may be able to sense something. The whole thing is not without danger.

Harry is busy at the moment. Maggie is more important.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 04, 2020, 07:08:34 AM
Oh yes, of course it is all Maggie
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Avernite on July 04, 2020, 08:47:23 AM
To keep the shroud safe it is better to keep it on the island at least until Harry knows more about the artifacts. They are big and dangerous.

Marcone most likely does not know what Harry brought from Hades and Harry would like to keep it that way.

Bringing it out and let it work for three days might attract enemies. Anduriel might be watching for just such an occasion and powerful entities may be able to sense something. The whole thing is not without danger.

Harry is busy at the moment. Maggie is more important.

OTOH we know Anduriel can be blocked by sufficient power. Maybe he literally can't see those artifacts.

Though I suppose it's easy to imagine Harry just not risking it.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 04, 2020, 11:35:49 AM
OTOH we know Anduriel can be blocked by sufficient power. Maybe he literally can't see those artifacts.

Though I suppose it's easy to imagine Harry just not risking it.
  He cannot see them at Michael's place, nor if Mab is blocking him, I imagine he cannot see them on Demonreach either.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 04, 2020, 01:53:58 PM
The Shroud of Turin isn't Harry's personal healing service.  It cheapens the idea of what it is, if you simply expect to lay it on someone and see them pop up and get back to it. Harry told Marcone that he didn't think the Shroud worked that way in Death Masks.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 04, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
  He cannot see them at Michael's place, nor if Mab is blocking him, I imagine he cannot see them on Demonreach either.
That is what Kringle said in Skin Game but he can see it being moved between those places so I think Nicodemus suspect or knows it is on the island.


Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 04, 2020, 04:08:03 PM
The Shroud of Turin isn't Harry's personal healing service.  It cheapens the idea of what it is, if you simply expect to lay it on someone and see them pop up and get back to it. Harry told Marcone that he didn't think the Shroud worked that way in Death Masks.

Agreed, though if it could have helped the young woman Harry would have gone along with it.  Which he did, also saying he didn't think it worked that way.  That is what confused me because the impression given at the end of Death Masks is that was the real Shroud.  However it also makes sense since Harry or most on the planet didn't know that the real one was locked safely away in a vault in Hades.

I don't think it cheapens the idea of the Shroud as something that can heal, but it makes it too easy for Harry to heal Murphy. Actually he could have already have done so if it could be used, since it appears that her recovery is neither going as rapidly as hoped or be as complete as hoped.  Jim is setting something up with Murphy, if he follows his usual pattern, happiness and contentment won't be the end result.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: knightedbishop on July 04, 2020, 05:36:08 PM
My vote is still for Murphy being an Einherjar. One, it’d be badass. Two, it allows her to live on while still dying and causing Harry to have loads of guilt. The Einherjar have been on screen for a long time, so I personally don’t feel her death would be cheapened by her ultimately coming back to fight in the BAT.

About the Shroud: I still don’t think it’s purpose is to heal. Remember, Hades’s exchange with Harry. The vault was an armory, and it exists to contain weapons of terrible power when they are not needed. I like the idea of the Shroud destroying the Nemesis infection. Healing, but in a way that hurts the Enemy.

I’d wager good money that Nicoodemus and Anduriel know Harry is the Warden of Demonreach. Anduriel is too well informed not to know. And there is no way the Denarians are going to step foot on Demonreach now that Harry has awoken it. If they think the coins are confining then they definitely won’t like a crystalline cell. The artifacts are safe until needed.

Speaking of Demonreach, Hades word choice with “containing” sparked my interest. Demonreach has the same purpose. To contain dangerous beings. As Alfred said, they are always dangerous, but locked up they have the least ability to act. Not saying there is any direct connection between Demonreach and the artifacts...but we know an apocalypse is coming. I suspect those locked up beings will get out somehow. And the weapons to fight them are now in circulation.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 04, 2020, 06:53:08 PM
I believe if the Shroud could heal Nemesis, Mab would have asked Harry for it, unless there is a reason why she cannot use it and thinks that Harry needs to do something without knowing its power.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Avernite on July 04, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I sort of feel the weapons of the Crucifixion should be weapons for the fight for good against evil, rather than the fight of order against chaos. Sure, Heaven doesn't want the Gates to fall, but the fight there has been about Aesir, Fae and Wizards... while Heaven fights on the field of angels, demons, and souls.

As such just plain healing, or otherwise making a human able to reach the full potential of humanity, seems like a reasonable power for such items. If it must be a magical cure, curing black magic taint seems more reasonable, but then it would feel a bit duplicative of the blackstaff.

Perhaps it really is more of a ward against supernatural threats; when those threats are disease-based (as Nic did with the fake one) it will cure, when they're more direct, maybe it works more like Harry's shield bracelet.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 04, 2020, 09:00:24 PM
Quote
My vote is still for Murphy being an Einherjar. One, it’d be badass. Two, it allows her to live on while still dying and causing Harry to have loads of guilt. The Einherjar have been on screen for a long time, so I personally don’t feel her death would be cheapened by her ultimately coming back to fight in the BAT.

I think it will take away from the series though.  Be careful for what you wish for,you may get it.  If she comes back as a Einherjar, she will no longer be Murphy, so what is the point of that?  I can see her working with her father with Uriel and we might see her apparition once in a while, while different, she'd still be Murphy. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: peregrine on July 05, 2020, 03:08:41 AM
Yes, it's so much better for her to die than change.  Truly, you have Murphy's best interests at heart when you push over and over for her to die.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 05, 2020, 05:20:30 AM
Yes, it's so much better for her to die than change.  Truly, you have Murphy's best interests at heart when you push over and over for her to die.
We don’t need character development, we need battle scenes and when Harry at last finds some love we need to have her killed as soon as possible with much blood and loud fireworks. Especially when she is so bloody minded to have her own opinion about things and worst of all about Harry.

Won’t happen. It is clear that Karen is here to stay. Mirror Mirror is not about parallel worlds, it is all about the wedding dress. They want to marry but Harry’s knighthood is complicating things and Harry wants Uriel to officiate the marriage. Molly and Mab have their own ideas about the whole affair and it gets terribly complicated.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 05, 2020, 07:09:33 AM
Yes, it's so much better for her to die than change.  Truly, you have Murphy's best interests at heart when you push over and over for her to die.

I don't want her to die, but at the same time for years one of the main reasons he fans love her is she is a strong vanilla character.  Michael is too, but he has had the help of the Almighty and a Holy Sword.  As a normal biologically speaking vanilla human, Murphy is going to get older, at forty unless you are a wizard you begin to lose a step or two, you don't heal as fast as you did.  Who knows age may have been a factor in how badly Nic was able to beat her up.  That might not have happened to the Murphy of five years ago.  I quite liked her as a cop, but since she has been off the force Jim has struggled to find the right slot for her.  Nobody seems to like the idea of the middle aged Murphy getting older, so suddenly her fans are bringing forth all these supernatural solutions for her to continue as the rock um sock um Murphy who pulls Harry's chestnuts out of the fire.  Fine, but as I said, then she is no longer Murphy.  If that is what everyone wants, fine, or let her go out in a blaze of glory and remain, Murphy.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 05, 2020, 07:47:41 AM
People get older and they adapt, they change. Sometimes illness or other health problems accelerate that but it is there for all of us. I want to read how she adapts because she is not just an action doll you first tear a leg off and then throw into the garbage bin. She is also, as we have seen in Ghost Story, a leading figure in the paranet which is going to play some role in the next two books.

Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 05, 2020, 11:19:21 AM
People get older and they adapt, they change. Sometimes illness or other health problems accelerate that but it is there for all of us. I want to read how she adapts because she is not just an action doll you first tear a leg off and then throw into the garbage bin. She is also, as we have seen in Ghost Story, a leading figure in the paranet which is going to play some role in the next two books.

  No, she is not, we haven't heard much about her paranet role since Ghost Story.   
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 05, 2020, 11:50:27 AM
  No, she is not, we haven't heard much about her paranet role since Ghost Story.
That is because we did not hear that much about the paranet period. There is no reason to believe she is not involved anymore, that we probably would have heard.

Similarly she must have some sort of job or source of income, we did not hear about that either. We will probably hear something about it in the next two books.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 05, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
I actually don't believe Murphy will die. 

Some times bad things happen to good people.  At some point, if Murphy wants to remain in the fight, she will need to find a new way to fight.   

It might be a new noncombat role.  Murphy has a lot of knowledge and experience dealing with the supernatural.  In the Dresden verse, knowledge is actually power.  Even injured, Murphy can still be powerful.

Now if Murphy wants to keep fighting the way she has in the past, and if she wants to spend more of her life with Harry, then she may need to to become something different than she is. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 05, 2020, 01:36:17 PM
That is because we did not hear that much about the paranet period. There is no reason to believe she is not involved anymore, that we probably would have heard.

Similarly she must have some sort of job or source of income, we did not hear about that either. We will probably hear something about it in the next two books.

  She may have been given some kind of pension because of her service as a police officer.  Hasn't she been doing "security work" of some kind both for Vadderung and even for Marcone?  Maybe not directly but indirectly?  All I am saying is Jim has been toying with different ideas for her ever since he demoted her then ultimately got her fired.  None of them so far has worked so well as was what she started with.  That is why I actually think the best thing would be to make her a police chief.  She can do that and have a degree of physical impairment, it is the work she is really fitted for.  It could set her up to fight corruption, i.e. Marcone's influence, which would put her in conflict with a lot of characters including Harry because of Mab's support of Marcone.  It would also have her being in support of Harry and giving him access to information a lot like she did when she was a police officer.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 05, 2020, 02:23:47 PM
... or get her into the FBI. I mean, since agent Tilly was introduced in Changes, he wasn't seen since then. He is an acquaintance who could at least get her some kind of liaison status with the FBI, maybe leading to membership in the future.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 05, 2020, 03:52:25 PM
As a normal biologically speaking vanilla human, Murphy is going to get older, at forty unless you are a wizard you begin to lose a step or two, you don't heal as fast as you did.  Who knows age may have been a factor in how badly Nic was able to beat her up.  That might not have happened to the Murphy of five years ago.

I realize this is canon and widely accepted, but it’s not necessarily true.

When I was 20, I was riding a motorbike down the Lea Bridge Rd in London. A nice wide road, approaching a car waiting in the central reservation for me to pass. I was doing about 25mph (There was a speed camera set at 30 just ahead). Just as I approached the car, it suddenly turned across my path. I’ll spare you the full details, but my right leg was twisted beyond it’s capacity, both lower leg bones were broken, and the flesh around my knee had an 18” tear in it - the Dr. said my leg just burst open at the knee. I do clearly remember flexing the muscles in my thigh and watching them in action. I also remember wishing I had a camera because this was so cool. Yeah. Totally in shock :)

Eight months later, and after a fair amount of physical therapy, I’m as good as new. Now fast-forward 25 years, and I’m in the US riding an e-bike at about the same speed (25mph) down a bike lane. You can see where this is going...

So a lady is waiting to turn into a side road, doesn’t look (or doesn’t judge the speed I’m going very well) and turns across my path. I have time for “Oh shi” and .... we have impact (https://0x0000ff.uk/imgs/hit-by-car.png). This time, my head and elbow break the windscreen (breaking my arm in the process), and my leg deforms the side of the car, breaking my right femur as it hits.

It took about the same amount of time (7 months) to fully heal. Just like before, it takes about 8 weeks to get some agency back, and then it just gets steadily better until it’s healed. It was complicated this time by me having about 60% of my body heavily bruised, which is a totally different thing (fluid sloshing around and gathering in places) than getting a small bruise. Still, even at 45 I recovered just fine given time. There’s no difference between either leg these days and it’s now 6 years later so I’ve had time for fallout to appear.

Summing up:

So sure, Murphy could recover if that’s what Jim wants to do; she could also have “complications” and she gets forced to take a different path, or suffer further consequences if she doesn’t. My only point is that speaking as one whom life has tried in this fashion, injury doesn’t *have* to mean permanent life changes. My own gut feeling is that when an author writes injury into a character’s arc there’s a reason for that, so I doubt she’ll be as fortunate as I, but it’s still Jim’s choice.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 05, 2020, 06:07:56 PM
Quote
So sure, Murphy could recover if that’s what Jim wants to do; she could also have “complications” and she gets forced to take a different path, or suffer further consequences if she doesn’t. My only point is that speaking as one whom life has tried in this fashion, injury doesn’t *have* to mean permanent life changes. My own gut feeling is that when an author writes injury into a character’s arc there’s a reason for that, so I doubt she’ll be as fortunate as I, but it’s still Jim’s choice.

Which is appears he wants because she went from 90% probable recovery to something that sounds like a lot less.  I am happy for you and your recovery, yeah, older people recover from illness and injury all of the time.  However most doctors will tell you the body doesn't respond at forty something like it did at twenty something.  Also what you do with your body over the years counts as well.  It sounds like Murphy is dealing with severe joint injuries, as a competitive athlete in hand to hand combat, she has put severe strain on them over the years.  Athletics is healthy and important, but it is also hard on the body, lots of athletes her age begin to suffer from arthritis from repeated strain.. The cartilage  in her shoulder and knee could be shot, she has suffered a nasty injury to the latter in the past.   I still don't understand why they want to do what sounds like repeated operations on her knee?  When knee replacement surgery is getting better and better and very effective.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 05, 2020, 06:14:50 PM
I believe real life injuries (and healing practices) have nothing to do with JB story. He has a plan for Murphy and he probably needs her to hit a physical and emotional low.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 05, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
I believe real life injuries (and healing practices) have nothing to do with JB story. He has a plan for Murphy and he probably needs her to hit a physical and emotional low.

Yes! So that she decides to take a coin  ;). Which after a while she will be able to give it up, probably with Harry's help, and go the redemption road.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: peregrine on July 05, 2020, 09:36:32 PM
Yes! So that she decides to take a coin  ;). Which after a while she will be able to give it up, probably with Harry's help, and go the redemption road.
No, Harry will just be forced to kill her.  Because she wouldn't be able to live with herself.  You know.  For Murphy's sake.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Bad Alias on July 05, 2020, 10:50:31 PM
On a different note, the accountant would have had to be alive when the gang entered the vault.  At least as far as the police are concerned. The body is going to have a different expired by date unless somebody pays off the medical examiner. Has this been mentioned?
He was in a store where Harry used a bunch of ice magic. That might affect estimated time of death. Also, time of death is an estimate that gets less and less accurate as time goes on.

That is what Kringle said in Skin Game but he can see it being moved between those places so I think Nicodemus suspect or knows it is on the island.
He can't see it being moved if it's in a bag or other container.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 06, 2020, 01:57:05 AM
It doesn't matter.  Harry will not be visiting a state or federal prison before the BAT. ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Bad Alias on July 06, 2020, 03:14:30 AM
At most, he's only going to be visiting.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2020, 02:33:18 PM
Yes! So that she decides to take a coin  ;). Which after a while she will be able to give it up, probably with Harry's help, and go the redemption road.

  Of all the options for Murphy's future, I think that is the least likely after the beating she took from
Nic.   I really believe she would have to be totally desperate to even contemplate that. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 06, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
  Of all the options for Murphy's future, I think that is the least likely after the beating she took from
Nic.   I really believe she would have to be totally desperate to even contemplate that.
We will see. But I think, she will be desperate, if she isn't yet. Maybe not yet in PT or BG, but I still think the coin thing isn't too far fetched. It's a feeling. If I'm wrong, you all are allowed to say "told you so"  ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2020, 04:10:39 PM
We will see. But I think, she will be desperate, if she isn't yet. Maybe not yet in PT or BG, but I still think the coin thing isn't too far fetched. It's a feeling. If I'm wrong, you all are allowed to say "told you so"  ;)

It would be a shock indeed.  If that happens I don't think we will see her giving it up anytime soon.
For the simple reason that it would be a major mistake to think she isn't as susceptible as anyone else to being enslaved by the Fallen.  It would also be a major victory for Nic and company if she did take a coin since she was a Knight even if it was only for a couple of days.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 06, 2020, 04:39:25 PM
We will see. But I think, she will be desperate, if she isn't yet. Maybe not yet in PT or BG, but I still think the coin thing isn't too far fetched. It's a feeling. If I'm wrong, you all are allowed to say "told you so"  ;)
A coin is totally out of character. She knows what they are and is not interested. Even if she wants to go Faustian there are far better options available for her.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2020, 05:34:19 PM
A coin is totally out of character. She knows what they are and is not interested. Even if she wants to go Faustian there are far better options available for her.

I totally agree.  Now if her injuries had been cause by other means than being beaten up by Nic and she saw no other way especially if Harry was about to be killed?  Possible, remote, but possible, but now?  I cannot see her doing that.   As for a Faustian bargain, that doesn't turn out well if Jim follows the traditional outcomes.  In one Faust is redeemed but has to die in the process and goes to Heaven, in the other, he goes to Hell and burns..  So if she does die, that might be what Jim chooses, she makes her Faustian bargain to save Harry, in the end she is redeemed for making it but dies in the process and goes to Heaven to help her father working for Uriel.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 06, 2020, 05:57:13 PM
I totally agree.  Now if her injuries had been cause by other means than being beaten up by Nic and she saw no other way especially if Harry was about to be killed?  Possible, remote, but possible, but now?  I cannot see her doing that.   As for a Faustian bargain, that doesn't turn out well if Jim follows the traditional outcomes.  In one Faust is redeemed but has to die in the process and goes to Heaven, in the other, he goes to Hell and burns..  So if she does die, that might be what Jim chooses, she makes her Faustian bargain to save Harry, in the end she is redeemed for making it but dies in the process and goes to Heaven to help her father working for Uriel.
Harry did not necessarily mean a deal with the forces of hell. There is Odin, Mab,

Maybe even Molly.

There are huge costs but not necessarily your soul
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Maz on July 06, 2020, 06:41:11 PM
From a purely hypothetical point, if Cthulhu were standing in front of me, about to cast his ultimate world ending spell, Harry was a greasy smear on his left foot, all hope appeared lost, and Nic were standing next to me, even knowing all that I know about his team, if he offered me a coin to help him stop the impending destruction of reality, I'd saddle up with the Denarians and sort out the consequences later.   Under certain extreme circumstances, I could see Murphy, even now, doing it.  Its just that I don't see the story going there. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Harry did not necessarily mean a deal with the forces of hell. There is Odin, Mab,

Maybe even Molly.

There are huge costs but not necessarily your soul

  I wasn't clear, I don't necessarily mean with Hell, however when the term "Faustian" is used, yes, she may wish it was her soul, because the price she will pay will be that high.  Perhaps, the price will be losing Harry forever more? 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Walter the skull on July 06, 2020, 08:47:14 PM
Murphy would never willingly take up a coin, and she is willing to die if it helps defeat the nickle heads.   

Harry blames himself for everything, so i could see him making a deal to get Murphy healthy.

I don't think the issue of Murphy injury should be solved quickly. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 06, 2020, 08:57:39 PM
Murphy would never willingly take up a coin, and she is willing to die if it helps defeat the nickle heads.   

Harry blames himself for everything, so i could see him making a deal to get Murphy healthy.

I don't think the issue of Murphy injury should be solved quickly.

I doubt that it will be.   If Harry makes some dumb deal to get Murphy healthy, I think it will backfire on him big time, result, he will lose Murphy forever.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Wolfeyes on July 07, 2020, 12:50:01 AM
... or get her into the FBI. I mean, since agent Tilly was introduced in Changes, he wasn't seen since then. He is an acquaintance who could at least get her some kind of liaison status with the FBI, maybe leading to membership in the future.

I was rereading Changes and I feel like this could be a good place for Murphy, honestly. Battle Ground looks like it'll drag the supernatural into the mundane world in a big way and even though Tilly got some knowledge in Changes, Murphy's still got the best knowledge of the current vanilla humans and she's been in law enforcement and she knows people like Tilly. It'd also put her in a place Randolph can't easily mess with her. Heck, with Randolph and law enforcement breathing down her neck in this chapter, that might be a good way to cut off future incidents and give Murphy a sort of powerup that doesn't have to do with the supernatural in a direct way.

I don't see Murphy making a Faust deal after this chapter (and the coin is super unlikely imo), but I wouldn't be surprised if something happens in the same way Michael briefly got healed in Skin Game. There's been speculation that Murphy appearing to be thinking of cutting off her cast in the trailer is to saddle up and that'll lead to her being reckless and cause doom. However, if something healed her - even temporarily - then she's not cutting it off for funsies. She's cutting it off because she can now physically help out.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 07, 2020, 12:55:56 AM
Thinking again, if Christmas' Eve happens between PT and BG perhaps Murphy dies in PT and is back (working for Uriel or something) for BG.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Wolfeyes on July 07, 2020, 05:03:04 AM
Isn't Christmas Eve post-BG? IIRC, there was an interview that mentioned that Jim was going to write Christmas Eve into the book. CE is also the one that references a lot of turmoil and death so it slotting into BG makes more sense than PT.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 07, 2020, 05:24:41 AM
In the official page there is no information of when it happens but I understood it was before BG, so we can have some suspense.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 11:01:23 AM
In the official page there is no information of when it happens but I understood it was before BG, so we can have some suspense.

  I read a blurb that supposedly was the time line, that Christmas Eve happens post Skin Game, so Murphy must have still been in the hospital.   

Quote
I don't see Murphy making a Faust deal after this chapter (and the coin is super unlikely imo), but I wouldn't be surprised if something happens in the same way Michael briefly got healed in Skin Game. There's been speculation that Murphy appearing to be thinking of cutting off her cast in the trailer is to saddle up and that'll lead to her being reckless and cause doom. However, if something healed her - even temporarily - then she's not cutting it off for funsies. She's cutting it off because she can now physically help out.

If Murphy is suddenly healed to go help Harry, one time deal or better, that smacks too much of a do over, just changing the name of the character.  First Harry so he'd become Winter Knight, then Michael so he could go help Harry in Skin Game, now Murphy ?  That is going to the same pocket of tricks one too many times, too predictable and bad writing on Jim's part if it goes down that way.  We all know he isn't a bad writer, so be prepared to be shocked one way or the other.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 07, 2020, 01:15:45 PM
Who said it was Murphy. It could be Goodman grey  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: morriswalters on July 07, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
If Goodreads can be believed then Peace Talks end in a cliff hanger which then takes you to Battle Ground.  That would see to put Christmas Eve after both events.  Which fits because he split Peace Talks.  But you will have a better feel for it in a week. ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 02:12:02 PM
Who said it was Murphy. It could be Goodman grey  ;D

If that turns out to be true. ???  That would indeed be a hell of a shock for Harry! :o
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 07, 2020, 02:48:41 PM
  I read a blurb that supposedly was the time line, that Christmas Eve happens post Skin Game, so Murphy must have still been in the hospital.   

No, all the references of thousands of casualties said it is not after SG but at least after PT, perhaps after BG too.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Arjan on July 07, 2020, 02:50:54 PM
No, all the references of thousands of casualties said it is not after SG but at least after PT, perhaps after BG too.
I believe christmass eve was written before the split was anounced.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 03:51:23 PM
No, all the references of thousands of casualties said it is not after SG but at least after PT, perhaps after BG too.
It's been a while since I've read Christmas Eve, but now that you mention it I remember that being said as well and it makes sense now.   All I am going by is I Googled the time line for when Christmas Eve takes place and the answer was just after Skin Game.   However while yeah, in Skin Game there was a body count, it didn't number in the thousands.  Question though, just how does the supernatural world cover something like that up or explain it to the vanilla human world?
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: spiritofair on July 07, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
It's been a while since I've read Christmas Eve, but now that you mention it I remember that being said as well and it makes sense now.   All I am going by is I Googled the time line for when Christmas Eve takes place and the answer was just after Skin Game.   However while yeah, in Skin Game there was a body count, it didn't number in the thousands.  Question though, just how does the supernatural world cover something like that up or explain it to the vanilla human world?
The rumor is that Battle Ground is the book that opens the world's eyes to the supernatural. Not sure how it's going to be explained... who would do the explaining? It's just gonna come out, and think about how the world would react to that. A thousand different ways by people of different cultures in different countries.

I remember when Christmas Eve came out, the post said that it came after Peace Talks. There was a bunch of discussion about why Murphy wasn't there. Which fits since Jim had tweeted about "Murphy's funeral".

Since Peace Talks was likely split into two after Christmas Eve was written and because Peace Talks and Battle Ground, having been one book split into two, likely are separated by very little time if any at all, it stands to reason that Christmas Eve falls after both books.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Regenbogen on July 07, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Cold Days was Halloween. After that he stayed half a year on Demonreach. So, in Skin Game it would have been around May. In the first chapter of peace talks he told Thomas, that he was a full time dad for one month now. So, I would say, PT happens in June or July, depending on when he took Maggie to his new home.
In Christmas Eve the talk was about the events of "last summer" and "all the deaths" so there are several months between the peace talks and Christmas Eve. I don't think BG would be more than half a year after PT, but more like immediately afterwards.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Aminar on July 07, 2020, 05:33:37 PM
Cold Days was Halloween. After that he stayed half a year on Demonreach. So, in Skin Game it would have been around May. In the first chapter of peace talks he told Thomas, that he was a full time dad for one month now. So, I would say, PT happens in June or July, depending on when he took Maggie to his new home.
In Christmas Eve the talk was about the events of "last summer" and "all the deaths" so there are several months between the peace talks and Christmas Eve. I don't think BG would be more than half a year after PT, but more like immediately afterwards.
Skin Game was in February. Which I found a little unbelievable given Lake Michigan Ice and the lack of snow everywhere. It was also a year and change since Cold Days.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 05:42:01 PM
Skin Game was in February. Which I found a little unbelievable given Lake Michigan Ice and the lack of snow everywhere. It was also a year and change since Cold Days.

That depends on the winter though, some are harsher than others.. Also Chicago isn't constantly covered in a blanket of snow, and Lake Michigan can have less ice, even in February.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 07, 2020, 06:27:27 PM
Does anyone want to talk about how this line from Small Favor is even funnier in light of this chapter?
Quote
My brother threw up his hands. "What does a woman need to do, Harry? Rip her clothes off, throw herself on top of you, and shimmy while screaming, 'Do me, baby!'?" he shook his head. "Sometimes you're a frigging idiot.
Apparently, even that was not enough for Harry.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Dina on July 07, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
 :D LOL! I had forgotten.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Aminar on July 07, 2020, 08:05:27 PM
That depends on the winter though, some are harsher than others.. Also Chicago isn't constantly covered in a blanket of snow, and Lake Michigan can have less ice, even in February.
I grew up not to far north of there. We have Snow until Mid-March pretty much every year. Especially years where Mab keeps the Lake Ice, "Abnormally late this year" by having it melt a month early...

Snow comes later a lot. Often not until late December or early January. But there's always 3 months of it minimum. Michael's yard should have had a foot of snow in it.
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Mira on July 07, 2020, 09:30:14 PM
I grew up not to far north of there. We have Snow until Mid-March pretty much every year. Especially years where Mab keeps the Lake Ice, "Abnormally late this year" by having it melt a month early...

Snow comes later a lot. Often not until late December or early January. But there's always 3 months of it minimum. Michael's yard should have had a foot of snow in it.

    Just looked it up, Chicago had nine inches for the month of February in 2020 and eight inches in 2019..  I was there for Christmas visiting my son and his family in 2017 and there was only a couple of inches on the ground, in fact it melted and the ground was bare, it actually rained if I remember.  Now that isn't to say they cannot get some fearsome blizzards, they can, and it can be colder than a witch's tit as my husband used to say who lived there for years..  There is also ice on the lake, but that too varies.  My son lives in a Chicago suburb like Michael, when I got there for Christmas there was perhaps three or four inches of snow on the ground, but it was melted and they ground was bare by the time I left just before New Years. 
Title: Re: Chapter 5 Drop
Post by: Aminar on July 07, 2020, 09:36:33 PM
    Just looked it up, Chicago had nine inches for the month of February in 2020 and eight inches in 2019..  I was there for Christmas visiting my son and his family in 2017 and there was only a couple of inches on the ground, in fact it melted and the ground was bare, it actually rained if I remember.  Now that isn't to say they cannot get some fearsome blizzards, they can, and it can be colder than a witch's tit as my husband used to say who lived there for years..  There is also ice on the lake, but that too varies.  My son lives in a Chicago suburb like Michael, when I got there for Christmas there was perhaps three or four inches of snow on the ground, but it was melted and they ground was bare by the time I left just before New Years.
January and February are the coldest months of the year. Snow that lands during them rarely melts up here. Note that that 8 and 9 inches is what fell during that month with January usually having more that won't be melting. Christmas is warmer by comparison a lot of the time. Jim  doesn't live by Lake Michigan. He messed that up. It happens. But make no mistake. There's always snow in the yard in Chicago in February. (Let alone the yard of the Winter Lady...)