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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: KlausGerken on June 20, 2020, 10:17:44 AM

Title: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: KlausGerken on June 20, 2020, 10:17:44 AM
I'm rereading the novels in anticipation of "Peace Talks". Ms. Asher just rocked the Gate of Fire.

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So she is much better at pyromancy then Harry. Much like Mort is better at his stuff then Harry. But the rules for refinements seem to enforce that a wizard gets better if he has control over more elements - because to get specialization boni, he needs to create a column: Ie: To get a +3 in Fire control, you also need a +2 (maybe in Fire power) and a +1 (in a different element).

So if I would build Ms. Asher, she would be worse then a wizard because she simply could not take a similar amount of refinement stunts.

Any idea on how to change that?
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Taran on June 21, 2020, 09:44:29 PM
The scene you're describing is, simply, a block against the Fire Damage or the Environmental Damage.

For someone who is super-good at one element, you could break it into 3 elements...like:  Light; Heat; and something else...dunno. 

It makes sense that she'd have air, though, too.  ANyways, that lets her build a bigger pyramid but it's all fire related.

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Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: KlausGerken on June 23, 2020, 09:21:06 PM
Sure, its a Block - but its one done with magic. So she would - as usual - define the block strength, need the conviction to do it and roll discipline.

And she would need to be better then Harry, which I don't see her doing using DFRPG as written - that's why I'm asking. And I don't think she has Air - but even if she does, Harry would still be better then her in his best element, just because of the colums the refinement stunt requires.

Regarding your spoiler: I assume Harry, who looked at her rather closely, would have noticed that.

I tried to give up on the columns and just let my players buy refinements up as you like. But that's very, very beneficial for people who use sponsored magic. Also: Wizards are by far stronger then everybody else in the high-refresh games, so I don't really want to remove one of the few things that limit them.


The scene you're describing is, simply, a block against the Fire Damage or the Environmental Damage.

For someone who is super-good at one element, you could break it into 3 elements...like:  Light; Heat; and something else...dunno. 

It makes sense that she'd have air, though, too.  ANyways, that lets her build a bigger pyramid but it's all fire related.

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Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: KlausGerken on June 24, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Actually... on page 181 it states that a focused practioner can take refinement only to get more focus item slots.

Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on July 04, 2020, 05:14:18 AM
Yeah, the DFRPG rules (written before we saw more of what Mort could do in Ghost Story, or Hannah Ascher in Skin Game) don't really represent the power level we've seen from "focused practitioners" in the post-Changes books.

Regarding your spoiler: I assume Harry, who looked at her rather closely, would have noticed that.

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Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: gog on July 05, 2020, 05:18:18 PM
I'd guess that some of this could be covered using the "Spellcasting powers and stunts" rules from the The Paranet Papers (p275-6). This would give access to extra things beyond the normal - though would need to describe a new set of powers, such as advanced elemental affinity. Also could see a variation on the "Breath Weapon" power for throwing fireballs around.
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on July 06, 2020, 11:42:01 PM
That's certainly how I would handle it, much better than making Refinement stronger by not requiring the pyramid.

I'd probably give Ascher some kind of Toughness or Immunity power vs. fire/heat with an additional Catch of requiring concentration (so it wouldn't work if taken totally by surprise, and she couldn't

The other stuff she does, beyond *spoiler*, is probably a matter of high Discipline plus control focus items plus a precision-related Aspect when she really needs the boost. If she has Superb or Fantastic Discipline and a +2 fire control ring...
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: KlausGerken on July 15, 2020, 01:13:21 PM
The way I read her work on the Gate of Fire, she went in there without ANYTHING. No focus items, nothing. Of course, her focus items might not stuff you can use like a staff, but I can't find anything on her using items at all.

The really good casters don't seem to. McCoy, in "Peace Talks"
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Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 23, 2020, 07:59:16 AM
In the RPG casters actually get more dependent on items as they grow stronger, though.

Anyway, there have been some attempts at custom powers for this kind of thing. No promises WRT balance.

Focused Mastery (https://dfrpg-resources.paranetonline.com/index.php?title=Focused_Mastery)

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Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Troy on August 24, 2020, 12:14:37 AM
This is why I like Dresden Files Accelerated better when it comes to this sort of thing. DFRPG makes it impossible to make Focused Practitioners the way they are described in the fiction.

I'll have more on this later!

Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Troy on August 24, 2020, 03:18:32 AM
Asherian Pyromancy (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53389.msg2332581.html#msg2332581)

Yes? No? Maybe?
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on August 24, 2020, 05:36:32 AM
That's pretty cool.

Ascher isn't actually immune to fire and heat, though; she does get burned at the end of the Gate of Fire. And given her *spoiler* advantage, I'm really not sure she is actually as good as all that.

I mean, she was able to kill Wardens, sure, so that sets a lower limit. But most Wardens aren't necessarily that impressive in this era of the series, given how many of them are new recruits to replace Vampire War losses.

Without her *spoiler* advantage, Harry wouldn't have had any trouble at all (and he did win against her, even with that advantage). I'm not sure having a trick that Harry doesn't actually means she's overall better even in the fairly narrow area of fire.

Ascher looks to me like really high Control but (before *spoiler*) relatively little Power.
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: KlausGerken on August 24, 2020, 10:58:00 AM
Ascher looks to me like really high Control but (before *spoiler*) relatively little Power.

The problem is: That is something the rules can't really offer: High control is usually not that interesting.

If you have just two points of power (as in conviction + boni) and 8 control (discipline+boni) - what is there you can do, a Caster with power 5 and control 5 can't?
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Troy on August 24, 2020, 07:22:01 PM
I don't know; I haven't read this novel. I based my ideas on a consultation with a self-described superfan of every book who has read them multiple times. He was extremely helpful.

But you're all correct, as I said before, the rules in the book make it impossible for any Focused Practitioner to be as good at any kind of magic as a wizard could be. I'm not sure why that is except to encourage players to evolve into wizards, to seek "promotion" in order to become more powerful.

DFA gets around this by letting each player customize their magic. They can make up whatever they want as long as everyone at the table is cool with it. So any neat little trick you can think of can be available to a Focused Practitioner without being readily available or even known to a full-fledged magical practitioner.

Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on August 24, 2020, 07:39:31 PM
I don't know; I haven't read this novel.

Ah, ok. One point worth noting is that Ascher isn't actually *immune* to fire/heat; she does get burned by contact with the lever in the Gate of Fire.

In DFRPG terms, I'd give her Mythic Toughness against fire (combined with using an evocation shield) but not actual Immunity to it.

Quote
I'm not sure why that is except to encourage players to evolve into wizards, to seek "promotion" in order to become more powerful.

Because at the time DFRPG was published, it seemed pretty clear that that's how Dresdenverse magic worked... really powerful practitioners all had broad-spectrum ability.

From GS and SG it's possible Harry was wrong about that; although I'm not entirely sure, given that Mort being better than Harry at his field doesn't mean he'd be better than a wizard that actually put time and effort into that field (which Harry mostly hasn't done), and given that
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The problem is: That is something the rules can't really offer: High control is usually not that interesting.

If you have just two points of power (as in conviction + boni) and 8 control (discipline+boni) - what is there you can do, a Caster with power 5 and control 5 can't?

Well, you would hit more often with evocation attacks, but do far less damage...

But that's actually kind of my point. I don't think Ascher is actually more capable than Harry, even in her field. She does her stuff differently, but I'm not sure she can accomplish goals he can't.

Harry never had to really think about getting through the Gate of Fire, since Ascher did it immediately after Harry found out it existed. That doesn't mean he couldn't have found a way - some of the Winter Ice and fire/ice stuff he's done is really impressive, for example.
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: Troy on August 24, 2020, 09:19:13 PM
Because at the time DFRPG was published, it seemed pretty clear that that's how Dresdenverse magic worked... really powerful practitioners all had broad-spectrum ability.

From GS and SG it's possible Harry was wrong about that; although I'm not entirely sure, given that Mort being better than Harry at his field doesn't mean he'd be better than a wizard that actually put time and effort into that field (which Harry mostly hasn't done), and given that

I'm not sure about that.
Here's examples:
When the author (Billy) describes Focused Practitioners as the minor league of the spellcasting world, Harry jumps in to say...

 
Quote
Don’t make these guys sound like they’re featherweights, Billy. They’re specialists rather than generalists, and their power levels can be all over the map. Mortimer Lindquist, an ectomancer I know, is INCREDIBLY capable at what he does. Some of his tricks are stuff I ’m not sure I could easily figure out myself.

In OW, it goes on emphasize:

Quote
Billy: "Harry, I was going to write Morty up as a fairly low refresh guy, but you keep talking about how he’s pretty powerful within his own area of focus."

Dresden: "He is."
Regardless, DFRPG made it seem like Focused Practitioner ain't nuttin' the fuck wit'. But the rules were left lacking. Dresden Files Accelerated fixes that problem in my opinion.
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on August 25, 2020, 06:11:26 AM
Well, sure - Mort can do stuff that Harry can't, because Harry's talents don't run in that direction. (In game terms, Harry doesn't have any Ectomancy foci or specializations, while Mort would necessarily have Ectomancy foci since he doesn't have anything else to use his focus slots on. Also, Harry's highest spellcasting stat is Conviction, which isn't very useful for Thaumaturgy.)

That doesn't mean Mort would be better at Ectomancy than a wizard who was actually good at Ectomancy.

Now there is a reference in GS that implies that he's Council-level, but I don't know what that means exactly... does it mean that he could train into a broader ability, or he has enough "raw power" for the Council but couldn't pass their tests since his talents are narrower than what they're looking for, or what?
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: gog on August 25, 2020, 05:12:38 PM
Also the question of powers for Focused Practitioners; and other is covered by the  "Spellcasting powers and stunts" rules from the The Paranet Papers (p275-6).
Title: Re: Hannah Asher: How to build?
Post by: vultur on August 25, 2020, 10:21:26 PM
Yeah. I'd give Ascher Mythic Toughness (only against fire/heat).

Combined with an evocation block, that would make her practically immune to normal fire. I'd say when the Salamander showed up, it started making actual attacks with the fire, with a good Weapon rating (rather than just environmental-hazard "attacks"), which is why she got burned at the end.