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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on June 16, 2020, 07:11:30 PM

Title: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 16, 2020, 07:11:30 PM
https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/peace-talks-16/peace-talks-chapter-3

That was kind of disappointing.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 16, 2020, 07:54:09 PM
https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/peace-talks-16/peace-talks-chapter-3

That was kind of disappointing.

  I didn't find it so, but the big question is,
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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 16, 2020, 08:25:41 PM
Ok so that's who it was. Neat.

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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 16, 2020, 09:07:48 PM
Shades of Summer Knight.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: knightedbishop on June 16, 2020, 09:50:15 PM
Whelp, I got that guess wrong.

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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Uriel_spook on June 16, 2020, 09:56:54 PM
That end of chapter cliff hanger brings 3 candidates to mind for me if what is referenced ultimately happens (unclear how to do spoiler tag when typing on phone so attempting to be vague):

Molly // Thomas // Eb himself.

I feel that Eb would be the most impactful from a story perspective. It also makes me reflect on a scene in the wonderfully done trailer that was released.

I’ll look forward to next week’s release. Does anyone know if it is extending beyond 4 pre-release chapters?  For some reason that # is what I recall being done in the past but we would still have 3 weeks to go from next Tuesday so I wasn’t sure. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 16, 2020, 10:52:01 PM
I'm with knightedbishop on the svartalves. But I dunno where that's gonna go. Hopefully we'll get to see more of them just to balance things out.
@Uriel_spook: I'm not too sure, but I'm fairly sure that we're just getting snippets of a chapter or two. I can't imagine that these are the full chapters. So I bet we'll get at least one more of them.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: knightedbishop on June 16, 2020, 11:41:41 PM
I’m confident these are the full chapters, not snippets. I think last time we got a total of five chapters before the book release.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: toodeep on June 16, 2020, 11:54:21 PM
After reading this I was left the very strong feeling that it was going to be Eb who betrayed him.  After all, how else could Eb be so sure and so sad about it?  Harry had seen through the distraction this was, which Eb was hoping would have Harry running off to the council while Eb set something up that Harry wasn't supposed to see.  Since Harry saw through that/refused to do that, it means Harry is going to have to deal with Eb's betrayal.

What I don't understand is why 1.  Harry doesn't tell Eb about their relationship with Thomas.  and 2.  Why Harry doesn't tell Eb about the probably Black council - nemesis connection.

Eb deserves to know he has another grandson (or in his opinion maybe grand-thing) running around, and as we know from the trailer, this might have been important information for him to have had, since Thomas is going to need a lot of help in this book.

As for the nemesis, we know people are wary about naming it and "attracting its attention" or "letting it know you know about it" but Harry literally had a conversation with Nemesis directly when it over-wrote Cat Sith.  He tried to talk Cat Sith into fighting it and failed and then talked with Nemesis.  Nemesis knows Harry knows about it, so what's the point of not telling others about it now.  It is important to know that the black council probably consists of people infected by it or convinced to people infected by it into what they are doing, and that they probably have a wide range of nemesis infected allies.  As a matter of fact, a discussion of that nature with the Merlin, if he is in the know about the nemesis/outsider threat, may be what brings him around to support/protect Harry.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Walter the skull on June 16, 2020, 11:58:05 PM
I just reread Christmas Eve which takes place after Peace Talks and Battle Ground.  Harry seems to be on good terms with Molly, Mab, and Kringle, so i think its safe to assume that they aren't in on whatever the plot against Harry is.  In the story he refers to himself as a wizard of the White Council, so the plot isn't successful. 

Let's look at some people that it might be.

I think Carlos is being shown as a likely candidate since he ask Dresden to help with security, which means he won't able to be at the upcoming council meeting.  I don't think its him.  He's Harry's peer, so he can't really order Harry to be involved in the security operation.  He couldn't stop Harry from going to the council meeting.

Luccio is someone Harry trust who could definitely screw him, if she wanted to.  I don't see that happening.  She was the unwilling black council pawn in book 11, so I doubt she would be an unwilling pawn again.  As for her joining the black council of her own free will, after what they did to her, I don't see that happening. 

I don't know why Ebeneezer would betray Harry.  If he wanted Harry out of the way all would need to do is...nothing.  He could just let the Merlin and Ancient Mia get rid of him.

I wonder if we'll see Elaine, she could easily screw Harry, and she's shady as hell.

Lara would throw Harry under the bus if she thought it would benefit her.  I don't think he's stupid enough to let his guard down around her. 

Murphy would be a gut punch, and she wouldn't do it willingly.  Note that she isn't mentioned at all in Christmas Eve.

Thomas has a kid on the way, if the Black Council threatens Justine, he may feel he has no choice but to help them.  Note that he isn't mentioned at all in Christmas Eve.

It could be Native American Joe.  He definitely doesn't want a civil war within the council and was willing to let Morgan die to avoid that.  He fights the Black Council at the island,and he does come to Harry's aid at the council meeting at the end of Turn Coat.  He could go either way.

Fix might turn on Harry he may blame him for Lily's death.  Maybe he went after Nemesis and ended up getting turned. 

It could be a minor character like, Yoshimo, Wild Bill, Chandler, or Martha Liberty.  We know very little about them.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Snark Knight on June 17, 2020, 12:48:50 AM
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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 17, 2020, 01:00:23 AM
Eb is dead meat walking.  The minute someone in the D Files is going to give Harry some useful information then dead they become.
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“Harry, I want to get caught up, too. I want to talk. Clear the air. And we will. But right now is no moment to let your emotions run your life.”
That talk isn't likely happen.  But the use of the phrase clear the air is interesting.

If Jim is going to kill off Thomas then he is the one most amenable to pressure.  That way he can die heroically.  Early look is that somebody is putting all the bodies in the same basket so they can be killed off. Note that Cristos is attending the Peace Talks.  Who knows? 

They should give us five chapters since one has been out forever, but that is just me.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: RitaJune on June 17, 2020, 01:56:25 AM
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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Yuillegan on June 17, 2020, 03:13:51 AM
Eb is dead meat walking.  The minute someone in the D Files is going to give Harry some useful information then dead they become.That talk isn't likely happen.  But the use of the phrase clear the air is interesting.
Exactly my thoughts. Probably saving Harry tbh. I don't think he will be the traitor or person who tries to off Harry but I do think he is withholding some big time information.

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If Jim is going to kill off Thomas then he is the one most amenable to pressure.  That way he can die heroically.  Early look is that somebody is putting all the bodies in the same basket so they can be killed off. Note that Cristos is attending the Peace Talks.  Who knows? 
I don't think he will kill off Thomas but I do think he and Harry's relationship is about to be shaken badly. Thomas always keeps stuff from Harry and I do think he has been hiding something for a long time now. However, if Thomas were to die I guess I would wonder why now? What purpose does that serve. I don't think it would both be him and Eb. I think one is the betrayer and one is going to die. But the betrayer likely will kill the other one while attempting to kill Harry (or perhaps as a final insult).

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They should give us five chapters since one has been out forever, but that is just me.
Agreed. Especially as we have another book coming it doesn't seem like much. But hey, I don't run the show. Also what did you mean by "shades of Summer Knight"? It does smack of that last big event, I agree but I am interested to hear your thoughts.

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I know right? Eb knows about at least one of his great-grandchildren so I imagine he would want to say hey. Maybe in the next chapter she will come out. Real question is whether he will meet Bonea.

toodeep - I know what you mean. I did wonder about that and I guess I am not entirely sold that Eb isn't a traitor. But from a Doylist perspective it makes more sense for him to die. The truth is if Eb wanted him dead Harry would be dead by now. So I think it's more likely he is just tired as he has seen it many times before.

And I agree it is strange Harry didn't discuss "the Adversary" with Eb. I guarentee he knows of it. My only conclusion is Harry isn't sure who to tell as even Eb is a possible sleeper agents. I think this is what Rashid was talking about when he told Dresden to look for signs. Don't give the game away if you're not sure type of thing. As for why Harry hasn't told Eb about Thomas...mostly for story telling impact. WOJ is that Eb is in denial about it which suggests he has figured it out. In-universe though, maybe Harry is worried how Eb might react. As much for Thomas' wellbeing as anything else.

Regardless, it is always frustrating when characters don't talk about all the things they definitely should. Mostly they don't because authors want the biggest impact possible and so save things up. But sometimes I think to myself "If I were in Harry's shoes, I would just ask all the big questions and to hell with the consequences". Which is probably why I would be a crap author.

123Chikadee - Yeah, I think you're on the money about Carlos. From his perspective he (Carlos) is going to think that Harry is the one who has been betraying him. The trailer certainly seems to push that idea. So I wouldn't be surprised if he and Harry tango...which isn't to say that they don't make up either.

Knightedbishop - Probably you are right on all counts. But I guess Eb knows a trick or two about how to get past a fortress. Traditionally that is part of an assassin's role. So I wouldn't be so surprised he could waltz in. All the same, I wouldn't be so sure about the security of that building. Something weird though is that EVERYONE seems to know about Eb being the Blackstaff. What happened to it being a secret role? It's hardly all that useful if it isn't. It's exactly the kind of thing you DON'T want people to know. An ace in the hole. As for the Molly thing, he was talking about from the perspective of the Council. I doubt he was too worried she would find out anyhow. And Mab would hardly care. She thinks of good and evil as silly mortal notions.

Jim has massively forshadowed things in this chapter. We know a big sucker punch is coming. Harry is going to focussed on security and worrying about Mab (and who knows what else) not to mention trying to keep his Wizard status that he will be sufficiently distracted from the knife in the ribs. Dresden is often least logical around women so I wouldn't be surprised if that's how it happens. However, Dresden has also been pretty cunning the last few books so I expect he will plan his own sucker punch. We know he survives this all and maintains his good relationships with Molly, Mab, Michael and Kringle. We also know he keeps his Wizard and Winter Knight status' (as of Christmas Eve). And Molly mentions in Christmas Eve he gets a lot in "everyone's" (whoever they are) faces after it all goes down.

There is of course someone else Dresden wouldn't expect to kill him. Someone he wouldn't see coming.
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. Hell of a sucker punch.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 17, 2020, 05:12:52 AM
That was kind of disappointing.
Yes, it has! I've read most of the chapter mentally shouting "stop talking nonsense and go to speak with
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". I am very angry.
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When is Christmas' story happening? After PT or after BG?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 17, 2020, 11:10:56 AM


Yeah, I think it is weird that he didn't speak with little Maggie..  But maybe in the next chapter?  He hasn't left yet and given the fact that Mouse bounded out to say hello..
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Maz on June 17, 2020, 02:57:40 PM
Reading all this got me thinking (related):

What if the betrayal involves Eb setting up Thomas for political purposes of the White Council?
It would fulfill several of these loose ends and cause one hell of a kerfuffle amongst all the parties.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Walter the skull on June 17, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
Dina:  When Christmas Eve dropped, Peace Talks was still one book, so I think it takes place after Battle Ground.  We don't have definitive evidence either way.

Maz:  I wonder if Ebeneezer thinks Harry and Thomas are an item.  That would definitely make him want to take Thomas out, given what happened to Maggie Sr at the hands of Lord Raith.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 17, 2020, 05:27:09 PM
I like that

about Christamas story, I have the same idea, that it is after BG. I think it is a little weird to publish such spoilerific story (I mean, we know Harry still has his titles)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 17, 2020, 05:42:20 PM
I like that

about Christamas story, I have the same idea, that it is after BG. I think it is a little weird to publish such spoilerific story (I mean, we know Harry still has his titles)

My impression is BG is just part two of Peace Talks because Jim didn't want Peace Talks to be longer than War in Peace.. ::)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: g33k on June 17, 2020, 05:57:16 PM
Dina:  When Christmas Eve dropped, Peace Talks was still one book, so I think it takes place after Battle Ground.  We don't have definitive evidence either way ...

I think Jim & his editor had already decided on the split, as of Christmas Eve dropping.  There was a LOT of extra writing & re-writing to be done to carry out the split.  They just weren't ready to announce the split.
 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Walter the skull on June 17, 2020, 06:13:24 PM
Ok I had some to go look at Jim's twitter.  Christmas Eve dropped on 12/25/18.  Jim tweeted The End on  7/22/19.

I don't know if the decision to split it into two books happened after he finished the manuscript or some time during the process of writing it. 

I think Christmas Eve was written before the decision to split the book was made. 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: TrueMonk on June 17, 2020, 06:19:58 PM
About Harry not telling his visitor about Nemesis. Just because they are all striving for the same target and working together it might not mean that they selflessly communicate all of their failures to each other. If the attack on Demonreach was one groups action they might not painstakingly describe to the others how much they failed.

Their communication could also be slow or fast, maybe secure communication requires travelling to some far away place in the never-never?

It is just, as far as we know, they are all working together does not nessecarily mean hivemind coordination.

The most important part of guessing a potential traitor is whether he is working with nemesis or not. If he/she is then I think everyone helping to stop the attack on Demonreach can be ruled out. Unless they are manipulated I guess :-)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 17, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking that Christmas Eve might have been written before the split happened, mainly b/c if he had already decided to split the book, then CE would need to be tweaked a bit and I think he would do that before putting it up.
@Maz: Oh that's a cool idea. I bet Eb wouldn't feel too bad using Thomas de to how protective he is of Harry. Even more so, if he thinks Harry and Thomas are together romance wise. You couple that with the fanon that Eb has a feeling that Thomas might be Maggie Sr's daughter, and yeah I can see why Eb would think Thomas is horrible.
@TrueMonk: All good points, but why wouldn't Nemesis' agents have a good way of communicating w/ each other just so they don't step on each others toes at least. 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mpol on June 17, 2020, 06:50:35 PM
Given what I know go the timeline for PT, the split happened well after THE END was written. I remember there being a very long wait between the end and the release date announcement, many were very irritated over at Reddit.

Christmas Eve was done well before the split.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Walter the skull on June 17, 2020, 08:26:05 PM
Maybe Harry didn't have Maggie come out and say hi to Ebeneezer he didn't want Bonea's existance to be common knowledge.  Maggie's 10 she could've easily slipped and told Ebeneezer that she was making pancakes with her friend.

I think he definitely thinks somethings up with Harry and Thomas.  Think about it, he walks in and Harry is making breakfast for Thomas.

Ebeneezer also says, “Look, Hoss. Your business is your own. I don’t come riding in here all the time trying to run your life. And I shouldn’t have thrown a wrench in whatever you had going with the vampire. But you’re young, and I got experiences with them and perspective on them that you don’t. I don’t want you to figure it out the hard way, that’s all.”

Whatever you've got going on?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 17, 2020, 10:38:42 PM
@Walter the Skull: Yeah exactly. Which means if he 'knows' who Thomas is, then that's probably one of the biggest reasons that he dislikes Thomas. So maybe the scene will be that Harry thinks he's dropping a bombshell on Eb, when really Eb can just turn around and say I know, which makes it worse that Thomas is trying to sleep with you. Cue Thomas and Harry being grossed out.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on June 17, 2020, 11:53:29 PM
Reading all this got me thinking (related):

What if the betrayal involves Eb setting up Thomas for political purposes of the White Council?
It would fulfill several of these loose ends and cause one hell of a kerfuffle amongst all the parties.

Wow!  This makes a great deal of sense to me.  It also explains the scene in the trailer when Eb says to Harry, "Boy!  Tell me, you ain't dumb enough to try this." and Harry not only responds that he's dumb enough, he pulls up a shield or is drawing up his power.  I don't mean that Harry is directly squaring off with Ebenezer, I mean he's going against the plan Eb set into motion.

About Harry not mentioning Nemesis; well, Harry has to be very circumspect about how he brings up this topic with anyone, even Ebenezer.  Also, Nemesis isn't the direct threat in this situation.  In some deeper discussion about the Black Council it might be worth bringing up, but right now Harry has to worry about who might stick the knife in his back and the person or faction on the Council that is giving them their marching orders.  That Nemesis might be or probably is the ultimate string puller is almost irrelevant.  Even if Harry knew that; just as an example, Cristos had been turned by Nemesis and was behind the plot against him, Harry can't do anything to Nemesis; at least not yet, he can only move against its agent. 

Om the topic of preview chapters; sure, it would be nice if we got five preview chapters, but I remember there was one book where we only got Jim reading three chapters at a book signing that was posted on YouTube and nothing more until the book was released.  So even if we only get one more preview chapter that's better than just three.

Disappointment:  I really wanted Harry to say to Ebenezer:
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Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: g33k on June 17, 2020, 11:58:40 PM
Wow!  This makes a great deal of sense to me.  It also explains the scene in the trailer when Eb says to Harry, "Boy!  Tell me, you ain't dumb enough to try this." and Harry not only responds that he's dumb enough, he pulls up a shield or is drawing up his power ...

It does look like a sensible theory!  Another idea has occurred to me, too ...

It could be that Eb just thinks Harry is overmatched in whatever he's preparing to fight.  Maybe Harry is about to rescue Thomas from Svartalven "justice."

Maybe it's moments after the scene teaser'ed earlier, with the cornerhound(s?) -- Eb doesn't think Harry can face them.

Etc.
 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 18, 2020, 04:39:27 AM
Wow!  This makes a great deal of sense to me.  It also explains the scene in the trailer when Eb says to Harry, "Boy!  Tell me, you ain't dumb enough to try this." and Harry not only responds that he's dumb enough, he pulls up a shield or is drawing up his power.  I don't mean that Harry is directly squaring off with Ebenezer, I mean he's going against the plan Eb set into motion.

About Harry not mentioning Nemesis; well, Harry has to be very circumspect about how he brings up this topic with anyone, even Ebenezer.  Also, Nemesis isn't the direct threat in this situation.  In some deeper discussion about the Black Council it might be worth bringing up, but right now Harry has to worry about who might stick the knife in his back and the person or faction on the Council that is giving them their marching orders.  That Nemesis might be or probably is the ultimate string puller is almost irrelevant.  Even if Harry knew that; just as an example, Cristos had been turned by Nemesis and was behind the plot against him, Harry can't do anything to Nemesis; at least not yet, he can only move against its agent. 

Om the topic of preview chapters; sure, it would be nice if we got five preview chapters, but I remember there was one book where we only got Jim reading three chapters at a book signing that was posted on YouTube and nothing more until the book was released.  So even if we only get one more preview chapter that's better than just three.

Disappointment:  I really wanted Harry to say to Ebenezer:
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That might make things worse and he did not consult Thomas either.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 18, 2020, 06:36:56 AM
Btw, Thomas doesn't know that Eb is his grandfather, does he? I'm not sure. Haven't found the chapter yet, where Harry has the grandfather talk with Eb in Changes. I think it was before the limousine crystal chat in chapter 40. Nobody could listen in on that.

And after killing Susan and Harry sitting outside with Maggie, Thomas wasn't near.
So did he hear something?


Edit: Ah, sorry. Found it. I remembered wrong. Eb didn't tell him. It was in chapter 48 in Changes. It was Martin. Got confused in my head.

So Thomas doesn't know. And he was already away with hurt Molly after Maggie was rescued.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: g33k on June 18, 2020, 07:58:51 AM
... So Thomas doesn't know ...

Say rather, "If Thomas knows, that happened offscreen... so we can't know that he knows."

Margaret LaFay could have told Thomas, before she left.
I presume that Papa Raith knew, and he may have told Thomas.
Lara now has Papa Raith's library -- which likely has records of Papa Raith's different leverage &c -- so Lara may have told Thomas.
Thomas is neither stupid, nor without resources of his own, and may have found out without being told.
 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 18, 2020, 02:31:02 PM
Say rather, "If Thomas knows, that happened offscreen... so we can't know that he knows."

Margaret LaFay could have told Thomas, before she left.
I presume that Papa Raith knew, and he may have told Thomas.
Lara now has Papa Raith's library -- which likely has records of Papa Raith's different leverage &c -- so Lara may have told Thomas.
Thomas is neither stupid, nor without resources of his own, and may have found out without being told.

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"How did Arianna know?" Ebenezar shook his head. "A dinner. Maggie--my Maggie--asked me to a dinner. She'd just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn't warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie's mentor, then." He sighed. "I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn't want it, either. And we fought."

I grunted. "Fought like family."

"Yes," he said. "Raith missed it. He's never had any family that was sane. Arianna saw it. Filed it away for future reference."

So I do not think Thomas or his father know. Lara might have guessed after Ebenezar's display in Turn Coat but she has no real human reference frame either so I don't think so. Harry did not know before Changes and he is a wizard, I do not think he told Thomas and I do think that would not happen off screen anyway.

So no, Harry is the only one who knows and he can not just tell. Thomas can handle it but Ebenezar might go ballistic. It can really go wrong. He certainly won't see it as a reason to trust Thomas but it would lead to him even more thinking that Harry trusts him too much.

Also there is Lara. Revealing secrets can lead to revealing even more secrets which can comlicating things.   
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 18, 2020, 04:36:42 PM
My question for Eb/Thomas is less about motivation and more on terms of tactics. So Eb could be warning Harry that it's
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doing the backstabbing, which would mean that's it just that Thomas is a means to and end and/or bonus of getting someone harmful out of Harry's life? So this warning is for Harry to have a way to figure out its Eb, who's more or less under duress and wants to give Harry an opportunity to either give himself an out and/or expose parts of the Council.
Maybe Eb has been given false info about Thomas or the circles he moves in and due to his bad experiences and biases, he doesn't look further b/c Thomas.
So maybe the Black Council/Nemesis wants to separate Harry and Thomas as well. That way, they can fully destabilize Harry and Thomas is just the first of Harry's allies. So it's almost like 'White Night' again. (Though I can see this going out of control for them.) Maybe that's how we see Cowl and possibly Kumori again, b/c the former has experience with the WCV.
 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: g33k on June 18, 2020, 06:51:57 PM
... So Eb could be warning Harry that it's
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doing the backstabbing, which would mean that's it just that Thomas is a means to and end and/or bonus of getting someone harmful out of Harry's life? So this warning is for Harry to have a way to figure out its Eb, who's more or less under duress and wants to give Harry an opportunity to either give himself an out and/or expose parts of the Council ...

I like this theory.

Eb has more/better info.  He sees the situation forming, knows that Harry will be manipulated into a position where Eb has to act in ways that will seem like a betrayal to Harry.  He's warning Harry, so Harry has contingency plans for any of his allies who do that.

Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 18, 2020, 07:10:06 PM


  Here is something that doesn't make sense.  I find it hard to believe that Eb doesn't know that
Margaret had a child with Raith,  especially in the light that supposedly he had dinner with them once a year or so.  If he does know, then he must also know that Thomas is his grandson.. Or he and Margaret were estranged for a number of years after she got together with Raith.. Or he is in complete denial that he has a vamp for a grandson... Or he is either really stupid not to have figured it out [unlikely,] or hiding something from both Harry and Thomas for his own reasons.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 18, 2020, 07:18:59 PM
:)
Maybe Eb heard there's a plot going on in WCV area and figures this is the last straw?
I've been thinking that
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Maybe Eb got wind of this somehow? If so, it'd probably be through BC chatter. He's got to have someone on the inside and there's gotta be a ton of misinformation going on. I mean Eb may have a whole lot of negative emotion reasons for trying to take Thomas out, but he almost certainly knows that he's his grandson, so he'd need some kind of 'logical' justification that he can call up so he can give himself a reason to attack.
@Mira: I think it's denial. It's just that he's aware that and to compensate for that, he acts really aggressive/double down.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Walter the skull on June 18, 2020, 08:18:35 PM
I too was thinking Thomas's arrest could be related to his Venatory work.

Ebeneezer probably knows.  He knows approximately when Maggie Sr was with Raith and the White Council probably had enough intel on the White Court to have an idea of when Thomas was born.       

Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 18, 2020, 08:57:06 PM
Right! Because I can't think of a reason why The Archive wouldn't be working towards destroying the Outsiders or at least making sure that Nemesis is dealt with.
It also guarantees that Thomas won't tell Harry what's going on and that he's lying about something major. b/c Thomas would have to lie about why he tries to kill someone and there's no way Harry won't find out that Thomas lied to him even if he doesn't get the real reason. 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 18, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
Isn't there a WOJ that say the Oblivion War won't come up in the books.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 18, 2020, 10:16:49 PM
I think so, but hey he could change his mind.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 21, 2020, 08:30:43 PM
Isn't there a WOJ that say the Oblivion War won't come up in the books.

  Then what is the point of bringing them up at all?  If they are mentioned in the short stories, there is always the possibility they will be brought up in some fashion in the books.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 21, 2020, 09:19:27 PM
You would have to ask him.  But if his word is unreliable then what is the point of WOJ's.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 21, 2020, 10:16:27 PM
@Mira: Pretty much. I mean I understand that some world building details aren't going to be used in the main storyline, but this is pretty big, I'd say.
@morriswalters: *Shrugs* I'm not sure.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 21, 2020, 10:39:56 PM
I never gave much value to the WoJ, as he is entitled to change his opinion
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 22, 2020, 12:54:38 AM
Yeah, esp since he's gotta be so secretive if he doesn't want to give away major spoilers.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 22, 2020, 03:13:49 AM
I never gave much value to the WoJ, as he is entitled to change his opinion
As the writer Jim doesn't have an opinion.  He establishes canon. 

My personal canon, that I'm creating since I won't outlive the series, is that Bonea will become the Archive in the distant past. :o
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 22, 2020, 05:05:41 AM
Ok, let's say to change his idea, instead of opinion. You know what I mean, like when he said that we will be seeing a soulgaze in book 15 (I believe he said 15, it could have been another number. It was a book that ended not having a soulgaze).

You were not here for the Ms. Duck "Molly is Mab" theory, right?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 22, 2020, 08:09:00 AM
Ok, let's say to change his idea, instead of opinion. You know what I mean, like when he said that we will be seeing a soulgaze in book 15 (I believe he said 15, it could have been another number. It was a book that ended not having a soulgaze).

You were not here for the Ms. Duck "Molly is Mab" theory, right?
No but Mab will die at the start of the apocalyse, Molly will be queen and gets a nice litter of changelings with Ramirez  ;D
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 22, 2020, 10:51:31 AM
Ok, let's say to change his idea, instead of opinion. You know what I mean, like when he said that we will be seeing a soulgaze in book 15 (I believe he said 15, it could have been another number. It was a book that ended not having a soulgaze).

You were not here for the Ms. Duck "Molly is Mab" theory, right?
No, I missed Ms. Duck.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 22, 2020, 11:19:38 AM
You would have to ask him.  But if his word is unreliable then what is the point of WOJ's.

  Authors always have the option to change their minds, it is their prerogative. 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 22, 2020, 12:25:13 PM
  Authors always have the option to change their minds, it is their prerogative.
Especially if it produces a better book.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 22, 2020, 01:36:38 PM
Especially if it produces a better book.
I definitely prefer a better book to a reliable WOJ.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 22, 2020, 02:04:45 PM
I definitely prefer a better book to a reliable WOJ.
What has one got to do with the other?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 22, 2020, 02:11:05 PM
What has one got to do with the other?
If something he said does not occur in the book because he decided something else would have been better. So I wouldn't mind, if what he said didn't occur. Don't know how else to phrase it, sorry.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 22, 2020, 03:49:00 PM
No, that's fine.  But the point is that Jim said that the Oblivion War wouldn't come up in the main story line.  And I can't imagine the case where the absence of the Oblivion War would make the story line a stinker.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 22, 2020, 04:02:18 PM
No, that's fine.  But the point is that Jim said that the Oblivion War wouldn't come up in the main story line.  And I can't imagine the case where the absence of the Oblivion War would make the story line a stinker.
The oblivion war is there in the background and it influences the decisions of other characters in the book. The part of the world we see is always only the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes it is just nice if Jim reveals something more in a woj. And maybe a few books later Jim suddenly gets an awesome idea and needs the oblivion war for it. I am not going to tell him that he promised not to use it.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 22, 2020, 04:16:11 PM
The oblivion war is there in the background and it influences the decisions of other characters in the book. The part of the world we see is always only the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes it is just nice if Jim reveals something more in a woj. And maybe a few books later Jim suddenly gets an awesome idea and needs the oblivion war for it. I am not going to tell him that he promised not to use it.
Exactly.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 22, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
OK.  WOJ's are off the table for arguments. ::)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 22, 2020, 05:43:49 PM
What has one got to do with the other?

  A lot actually,  when writing a book, especially a series, characters and events sometimes take
on a life of their own in spite of the best written outline or goals of the author.  Some of the best ideas just do not work out on paper as planned so a good author learns to be flexible.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: BrainFireBob on June 22, 2020, 06:21:21 PM
No.

There are three kinds of authorial insights for a work in progress.

Statements of intent: These are subject to change
Statements of fact/explanation/clarification: These are revelatory, canon statements about why who did what and why. These are things the reader waits for the author to reveal, because they are already part of the story. What happened at Justin's that last day, for instance. These should be treated generally as canon factual.
Statements of "I never considered that, and will now make something up."

Butcher has no intent of bringing in the Oblivion War, so appearances by Oblivion War opportunences are flavor text for the reader- the reader knows the "why" of the Archive, if theycread the shorts. For story purposes, in the "main" plot, it has been sufficient to know the "what" of the Archive.

Shorts are canon, but it's poor writing practice to make them prime narrative required. They're expansions, not story progressions.

Now, if Butcher WoJ that Peabody's swamp-smelling portal was to where Cowl was whrn accessing the Deeps, that's a WoJ of the first type.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 22, 2020, 06:43:17 PM
But unless it is written in the book, things that "already happened" can change. For instance, Jim could have written GS thinking that the man who hears Harry was Tera West child, but he could decide that in book 18 things he will have him again and having him being Mortimer's long lost brother and not at all related with Tera. He has every right to change any background he wishes, as long as he is not contradicting what is written.
No but Mab will die at the start of the apocalyse, Molly will be queen and gets a nice litter of changelings with Ramirez  ;D

That was my point. Morris theory remind me to all the times Ms Duck spend spreading around her Molly is Mab theory. It involved time travel I believe, but you should have witness the commotion here in the forums when Molly became the Winter Lady (thus effectively in the right path to become Mab). It was like an explosion  :).
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 22, 2020, 06:57:23 PM
OK.  WOJ's are off the table for arguments. ::)
Not necessarily. They give a good idea about how he thinks about it at that moment and what he wants to tell about it. Ideas about how he interprets things. But a woj from ten years back is to necessarily exactly how it works now.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 23, 2020, 12:47:05 AM
Not necessarily. They give a good idea about how he thinks about it at that moment and what he wants to tell about it. Ideas about how he interprets things. But a woj from ten years back is to necessarily exactly how it works now.

Exactly,  and it may come as a total surprise to some, but Jim stuck to some of the "how it was going to be" from ten years back it may not work at all.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 23, 2020, 02:03:06 AM
Morris theory remind me to all the times Ms Duck spend spreading around her Molly is Mab theory. It involved time travel I believe, but you should have witness the commotion here in the forums when Molly became the Winter Lady (thus effectively in the right path to become Mab). It was like an explosion  :).
I not going to support my theory, and it doesn't matter if anyone believes it.  It's the ending that I'm creating in my head for the books I won't get to read. It needn't be right, it just needs to match whatever facts I have when I get to whatever will be my last book.  More than likely Battle Ground.  I pretty much have it in my head now.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 03:04:31 AM
Morris, I am confused? Did you feel like I was trying to offend you or asking you to "defend" your theory? If that was the case, nothing further than my intentions, so I am very sorry. I intended to praise you by comparing it with, what I believe, it is the shinier example of what could have been seen as a crazy theory many years because it realizes. Also, Ms Duck is the best  :)

Besides, everyone has their own theories. One of mine is Mab is going to ask Harry to kill her.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: morriswalters on June 23, 2020, 10:34:27 AM
Nope, not offended.  Not in the least. I just wish the publication day would get here. :)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 23, 2020, 03:22:57 PM
Morris, I am confused? Did you feel like I was trying to offend you or asking you to "defend" your theory? If that was the case, nothing further than my intentions, so I am very sorry. I intended to praise you by comparing it with, what I believe, it is the shinier example of what could have been seen as a crazy theory many years because it realizes. Also, Ms Duck is the best  :)

Besides, everyone has their own theories. One of mine is Mab is going to ask Harry to kill her.

 I rather like that theory.  Forgive me if I step on it too much not having read the full theory.  Anyway, I can see Mab getting infected, too far gone for the ice cure, but not so far gone that
she has totally let it control her.  So as you say, she will ask her knight to kill her.  This puts
Harry totally on the spot because while he knows it has to be done, he also knows who will take
her place.  What ever hope there had been for Molly to retain her human soul will be lost once
she becomes queen.  It results in a show down with Uriel.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
My original theory was just "a feeling". It was long before Nemesis appeared in the books, but yes lately I think it will play just how you say it.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 23, 2020, 03:46:36 PM
I rather like that theory.  Forgive me if I step on it too much not having read the full theory.  Anyway, I can see Mab getting infected, too far gone for the ice cure, but not so far gone that
she has totally let it control her.  So as you say, she will ask her knight to kill her.  This puts
Harry totally on the spot because while he knows it has to be done, he also knows who will take
her place.  What ever hope there had been for Molly to retain her human soul will be lost once
she becomes queen.  It results in a show down with Uriel.
Oh that would be bad. But I can totally see it happening. Poor Molly. Poor Harry.

And poor Mab! I like Mab, I don't want her to die.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 03:47:54 PM
I don't want it either, I will be happy if I am wrong
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 23, 2020, 03:55:30 PM
So, let's hope you are wrong, but the theory sounds good. ;)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 23, 2020, 05:55:40 PM
I rather like that theory.  Forgive me if I step on it too much not having read the full theory.  Anyway, I can see Mab getting infected, too far gone for the ice cure, but not so far gone that
she has totally let it control her.  So as you say, she will ask her knight to kill her.  This puts
Harry totally on the spot because while he knows it has to be done, he also knows who will take
her place.  What ever hope there had been for Molly to retain her human soul will be lost once
she becomes queen.  It results in a show down with Uriel.
Molly and Uriel will get along quite well. They both have their purpose and they seem to understand and even respect each other. I do not see any problems between those two.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 23, 2020, 06:29:59 PM
Molly and Uriel will get along quite well. They both have their purpose and they seem to understand and even respect each other. I do not see any problems between those two.

   Yes, I can see them working very well together, Uriel and Mab work well together when need be. Problem is Molly's soul, does it get sacrificed here?  What would her parents say to that?  Does it pose a dilemma for Uriel?  Can you see him willingly let a human soul slip away?  Especially this soul considering who her father is.  Can he put a protection in place?  Or was Molly's soul screwed long ago when she made her original choices that led up to this moment under free will and there is nothing Uriel can do?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 23, 2020, 07:15:51 PM
@Mira
Why would Molly's soul be lost? I don't see it that way. Does Mab have no soul? Do the fae have no souls? I can't remember having read anything about that.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 07:34:55 PM
Yes, when we met Mab Harry says that there would be no problem in watching her eyes as there could not be a soulgaze because Fae have no souls (Harry said there are other reasons not to look a Fae in the eyes, but not that).
That generated a lot  of conversation here about Lily (long before Molly). There was a WoJ where Jim said that Lily was deluding herself to believe that she could not become a total fae. That was one of the WoJ I think we should take with caution, as it seems with Molly Jim changed a little his idea.
I do remember I was so angry about Molly becoming the Lady precisely for that reason. As a catholic, the idea of a young girl losing her soul just because "she was in the wrong place in the wrong moment" was terrible.
BUT, then, apparently JB said something about Mab having a residual soul or something like this. This is a complicated topic here, mainly because Harry's comment about faeries souls could be wrong simply because in universe Harry is wrong (there is speculation that that particular piece of lore came from Bob, who could be biased himself. He has a story with Mab)
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Regenbogen on June 23, 2020, 08:03:09 PM
Ah, that was in Summer Knight. I didn't remember the soul part. Yes. Maybe Harry just doesn't know better.
As I didn't remember the soul comment, I just assumed a soulgaze can only happen from human soul to human soul, and that other souls wouldn't be compatible, just like you can communicate with your dog, but you can't understand exactly, what he says. I just put in my personal belief, that every living being has a soul. Or as stated in Ghost Story by "Mr. Sunshine" or Bob(I think?): "You are a soul. You have a body" (quote not looked up or verified, just from memory). So a wizard can't soulgaze a fae, because they have fae souls, not human souls.
If a halfling becomes fae, his soul changes to fae, too.
If a human becomes one of the Queens, it could be, that the soul is gradually changed to a fae one, but not lost in my theory.

Sorry, a bit off topic, and I am sure this has been discussed before somewhere in this forum, but I have not read it. These are just my thoughts, and why I think, the Lady's soul isn't lost, only changed when and if she becomes fae.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Mira on June 23, 2020, 08:44:46 PM
@Mira
Why would Molly's soul be lost? I don't see it that way. Does Mab have no soul? Do the fae have no souls? I can't remember having read anything about that.
  Mab was human once, but now she is mostly Fae, they supposedly have no souls.  So does Mab still have a hint of a soul?   Who knows?   Yeah, I remember the comment about the problem with trying to do a soul gaze with one of the Fae is they have no soul.  However does that extend to those who are half human or were human once?
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Arjan on June 23, 2020, 08:58:50 PM
Or maybe the hang up with your soul is overblown. Mab and Gard seem to think that finding your purpose is the real important thing. It could also be a transformation, your soul is not gone, just changed. Uriel did not seem concerned for Molly.

“Um,” Bob said. “Complicated. Think of your spirit-self as a seed. Your soul is the Um,” Bob said. “Complicated. Think of your spirit-self as a seed. Your soul is earth it grows in. You need both when you die. The way I’ve heard it . . . they sort of blend together to become something new. It’s a caterpillar-butterfly thing.”
 
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 09:52:14 PM
Regen, yes, you can perfectly be right. Truth is we still don't have enough information to be 100% sure. I mean, it is written "Fae have no soul" but it is said for an unreliable narrator and in the specific context of a soulgaze. Just a comment, here in the forum we do a lot of free-style RPG, with different characters and stuff. And our canon has been yes, faeries and vampires have a soul. Only it is a different soul. It can be detected by other means, not soulgazes  :)
By the way, I believe the quote about the existence of other reasons not to look at someone's eyes was about Bianca (so, a vampire) not about Mab. I had those two situations confused, sorry about that.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 23, 2020, 10:51:05 PM
Yeah it'd be nice if fae had souls, at least that would mean that Molly isn't getting shafted.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 11:17:12 PM
And it would be good for Lily too, who I like.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: knightedbishop on June 23, 2020, 11:33:46 PM
From Uriel’s discussions with Harry, I think the soul is bound to free will. If angels labor to protect free will and choice, and they also are concerned with saving souls, I therefore think free will, soul, and the soul gaze are linked.

Jim implies, as many story tellers do, that greater power limits ones’s freedom to act. No mortal wizard holds a candle to the ladies, who are the least of the queens. Uriel is incredibly powerful, and is similarly incredibly bound on using his power.

At the same time, Uriel gives that thoughtful nugget: you are a soul, you have a body. I can’t see that Molly or Lily’s souls vanished because they took their mantles. They still have will. They are bound in their ability to exercise it. I can see their soul somehow suppressed as their free will to act is similarly suppressed. Lost? No. Obscured? Yes. I think that ties well into the soul gaze too. The soul gazes of mortals we’ve seen have revealed who someone is or who they may become. We don’t see immortals in a soul gaze, but the Sight shows who they are in terms of power and intent, like the vileness of the nagloshii or the sheer scope of Mab and Titania when they were creating a battle ground. In short, the soul gaze depicts the sum of a mortal’s choices to date and where future choices may lead. When a being has little or no free will to choose, there is little or nothing to see from a soul gaze, but the Sight can show their power and intent.

Give up the mantle and you are free to choose again. Mortality can be lost because it is a status bound up in free will. It can be regained by giving up the power that bound your will. The soul gaze (or lack of it) reflects a being’s status at the moment.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Dina on June 23, 2020, 11:39:57 PM
I had not thought that. It is an interesting theory.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 23, 2020, 11:47:27 PM
I like that theory and I hope it's gets confirmed.
Title: Re: New Drop Chapter Three
Post by: Bad Alias on June 30, 2020, 07:55:33 PM
I not going to support my theory, and it doesn't matter if anyone believes it.  It's the ending that I'm creating in my head for the books I won't get to read. It needn't be right, it just needs to match whatever facts I have when I get to whatever will be my last book.  More than likely Battle Ground.  I pretty much have it in my head now.
I hope your wrong and have many healthy years ahead of you.

Faeries and Souls
Isn't there something in one of the books about how faeries don't have souls, but might maybe have a soul that's so different that a soulgaze isn't possible. It might have been that if a soulgaze was possible, the faeries wouldn't be able to understand a human soul. I thought it was in SK, but I can't find it if it is.