ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rechan on June 03, 2020, 09:34:48 PM
-
The First Chapter of Peace Talks (https://www.jim-butcher.com/peace-talks-chapter-1) is up. In it I think there's a reference to Skin Game, either that or a short story, and my memory is just flat out blank.
“Marcone?” I demanded. Gentleman Johnnie Marcone, former robber baron of Chicago’s outfit, was now Baron Marcone, the only vanilla human being to sign the Unseelie Accords. He’d managed that a few years ago, and he’d been building his power base ever since.
“That stunt he pulled with Mab this spring,” I said, scowling.
Ramirez shrugged and spread his hands. “Marcone maneuvered Nicodemus Archleone into a corner and took everything he had, without breaking a single one of the bylaws of the Accords. Say what you will about the man, but he’s competent. It impressed a lot of people.”
Skin Game was 5 years ago, and I haven't read Brief Cases yet. What is it Marcone did?
-
The First Chapter of Peace Talks (https://www.jim-butcher.com/peace-talks-chapter-1) is up. In it I think there's a reference to Skin Game, either that or a short story, and my memory is just flat out blank.
Skin Game was 5 years ago, and I haven't read Brief Cases yet. What is it Marcone did?
I think Marcone somehow has grabbed credit for the con pulled against Nic, in Skin Game. I think it was actually Mab and/or Vadderung who masterminded things... but it was Marcone's bank that was the lure that Nic bit on, and Marcone seems to have leveraged that.
-
I think Marcone somehow has grabbed credit for the con pulled against Nic, in Skin Game. I think it was actually Mab and/or Vadderung who masterminded things... but it was Marcone's bank that was the lure that Nic bit on, and Marcone seems to have leveraged that.
If by con, you mean that Nic got the grail but Harry got the other pieces of the Holy set?
-
If by con, you mean that Nic got the grail but Harry got the other pieces of the Holy set?
Yeah, but what I am wondering is does Mab even know that Harry retrieved the Spear, etc.?
Or she does know in her usual four dimensional chess way, saying eventually when Harry does
bring them out, that that was her plan all along?
-
If people don't know about Harry stealing the other items, then I'm not sure what Marcone is being recognized as having pulled off.
Because I mean, Nic got what he wanted, no one on Harry's crew managed to die. That's...basically it.
-
Harry to Mab and Marcone in Skin Game:
“And you dealt him the worst pain you could imagine. You took away his daughter. No, you did even worse—you made him do it himself.”
“Now he’s lost his lieutenant,” I continued. “He’s lost his squires. When word gets out of his treachery, he’ll lose his name. No one will want to work with him. No one will deal with him. From where you’re standing, you’ve done worse than kill him. You’ve wounded him, strangled his power, and left him to suffer.”
And Mab agrees:
“Do you have a point, my Knight?”
-
So... Mab is there to confirm Marcone pulled it off, but steps to the side to make it seem she didn't make it all happen.
What's her play in doing that? Repaying a debt to Marcone, or gaining leverage over him?
-
Because I mean, Nic got what he wanted, no one on Harry's crew managed to die. That's...basically it.
I don't think he did. He may have claimed he wanted the Grail, but in my opinion his real aim was the Spear. If Michael is right, and he usually is about these things, under the heading of "be careful
for what you ask for you may get it," Nic getting the Grail may backfire on him. In other words the Grail may lead to his redemption, not a bad thing but not what he was after at all.
-
As Harry said to Vadderung, what he claims to be his goal is certainly not his real goal.
-
If people don't know about Harry stealing the other items, then I'm not sure what Marcone is being recognized as having pulled off.
Because I mean, Nic got what he wanted, no one on Harry's crew managed to die. That's...basically it.
Everybody got something. Marcone got revenge for his kidnapping and he got cred by his association with the real power players. Uriel, Mab, Vadderung and Hades. And they put the weapons Harry pilfered in the hand of their pawn, Harry.
-
So... Mab is there to confirm Marcone pulled it off, but steps to the side to make it seem she didn't make it all happen.
What's her play in doing that? Repaying a debt to Marcone, or gaining leverage over him?
Marcone was in on it the whole time. Harry guesses Marcone is going to end up with the Squires. If he does, everyone will know that Nicodemus and his super league attacked Marcone, Marcone kept his clients loot secure, Nicodemus went in with the whole crew, he came out alone, everyone else who survived the job says that everyone who didn't survive were loyal to Nicodemus and betrayed those that weren't personally loyal to him but had kept their word, and Nicodemus's squires end up working for Marcone at the end of it all.
Mab will somehow let it be known that it was her way of getting justice for Nicodemus's abuse of the Accords. Marcone doesn't even need any credit for setting it up to look like a boss, but from Ramirez's statement, he's getting credit somewhere. Marcone can just come out and tell people. He isn't going to be upset with anyone for saying that he was meeting with Mab the day after the bank job went down. There's also the possibility that Harry sent in a report to the White Council over what happened seeing as he is a warden. It would make sense as he killed a known warlock during the heist, but that's just one way Carlos would know. He also may just have told Carlos because they're friends. But the point is a lot of people know.
-
Yeah, but what I am wondering is does Mab even know that Harry retrieved the Spear, etc.?
Or she does know in her usual four dimensional chess way, saying eventually when Harry does
bring them out, that that was her plan all along?
That's an interesting question. I wonder who knows and who doesn't.
Uriel can be pretty safely assumed to know where his side's artifact's are.
Mab would have been hoping for her Knight to become that much more dangerous out of the venture, but it's an open question whether she's sure he got the other four.
Vadderung was only on the periphery of this one, but knowing is kind of a default assumption for him.
Marcone? He still seems to be expecting to eventually come into direct conflict with Harry. I'm not sure he'd have been as willing to go along with the plan if he was clued in that getting the Spear into Harry's hands was one of Mab's angles. Plus, if he knew Harry had come out with the true Shroud, he'd probably have swallowed his pride and asked to try it on Helen Beckit's daughter where the fake failed.
-
That's an interesting question. I wonder who knows and who doesn't.
Uriel can be pretty safely assumed to know where his side's artifact's are.
Mab would have been hoping for her Knight to become that much more dangerous out of the venture, but it's an open question whether she's sure he got the other four.
Vadderung was only on the periphery of this one, but knowing is kind of a default assumption for him.
Marcone? He still seems to be expecting to eventually come into direct conflict with Harry. I'm not sure he'd have been as willing to go along with the plan if he was clued in that getting the Spear into Harry's hands was one of Mab's angles. Plus, if he knew Harry had come out with the true Shroud, he'd probably have swallowed his pride and asked to try it on Helen Beckit's daughter where the fake failed.
I think the Uriel/Vadderung/Mab trinity all know what Harry got, and what Nic got. They all seem to be working on a common "make Harry into an anti-Outsider weapon" agenda. I presume each of them has other agendas with more or less overlap with that one they hold in common.
I have no clear idea whether Marcone knows (I can see arguments both ways); given his supernatural knowledge mostly seems to gate through Gard (who is Vadderung's), I think it likely that Marcone knows as much as Vadderung wants him to know (and am unclear how much that is!)... and likely also realizes that Vadderung is still keeping a huge portion of the information back.
-
Given that there are easier places to rob, if Marcone doesn't know precisely what, he has to know that it is powerful. And if it was a trap designed to destroy Nicodemus then he would have wanted to know about the bait for the trap.
-
Given that there are easier places to rob, if Marcone doesn't know precisely what, he has to know that it is powerful. And if it was a trap designed to destroy Nicodemus then he would have wanted to know about the bait for the trap.
Let's not forget what Hades said about the armory.
"To prevent anyone without the skill or the commitment to use them well from having them," he said. "It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind--only from the incompetents."
Marcone may have helped to set it up along with Mab, however the only one with the skillto
actually pull it off was Harry. Nic may have gotten the Grail, but only because Harry gave it to him.
It was a team effort to set it all up, but the only one to get his mitts on them is Harry.. Also except for the Grail, Harry deposited the loot where neither Mab nor Marcone can get their hands on them without his say so. Down in the tunnels of Demonreach Prison...
-
The con was only partly about who got what artifact. The most important element was getting Nicodemus to break his contract with Mab. Now if Nicodemus had left no survivors, it wouldn't have mattered, but he did and that meant everything. Now no one will trust Nic or deal with him. His strongest potential allies; his ex-wife and Lasciel are one; not in any mood to be helpful; and two, currently trapped in a coin under several tons of rubble inside Hades vault. Add to that, Nicodemus got his ass handed to him; and word of that must have been spread far and wide by now; so there's a loss of face; plus, Nic lost (murdered) his closest and most reliable ally, his daughter Deirdre.
The condition of one or both of Nic's potential allies may change in the long-run. Plus, Nic did get the grail. However, I think the one factor everyone seems to have forgotten is that Nicodemus still has one of the coins in his possession. My guess is that coin isn't a simple thug denarian like Ursiel. I think Nicodemus needs someone capable of being a truly useful ally to carry that coin. The Genoskwa was just a thug so a thug's coin was perfect for it to carry. I don't think Nicodemus wanted someone as capable as Goodman Grey to be just another thug on his payroll. Nicodemus seems to be quite aware that the endgame is coming soon and he needs to marshal all his strength and assets to accomplish his goals. Part of the beauty of Mab, Kringle and Marcone's plan, was it made it exponentially more difficult for Nicodemus to find someone the caliber of a Goodman Grey, who would be willing to even do a sit down with him and eventually take up the coin formerly held by his daughter.
-
Plus, if he knew Harry had come out with the true Shroud, he'd probably have swallowed his pride and asked to try it on Helen Beckit's daughter where the fake failed.
Wild thought, what if it didn't fail?
-
I think Harry would know because it would change Marcone so much that they could soulgaze again. At least that is my guess
"It was a dry and cool place, inside Gentleman Johnny Marcone. Except for one dim corner. There, hidden away from his everyday thoughts, there lurked a secret shame. I couldn’t quite see what it was. But I knew that somewhere in the past there was something that he would give anything to undo, would spill blood to erase. It was from that dark place that he drew his resolve, his strength."
It might even be to the degree that the easiest way for Harry to "win" over Marcone would be to heal Beckits kid.
-
His strongest potential allies; his ex-wife and Lasciel are one; not in any mood to be helpful; and two, currently trapped in a coin under several tons of rubble inside Hades vault.
Hmmm. I had not considered the fact that the denarians may actually be more fractured because of this. Good point. I wonder if this is the case, of if Nic came up with a really good plan whether his wife's fallen angel would still talk her into supporting him. Makes me wonder what her goals are compared to his.
-
... His strongest potential allies; his ex-wife and Lasciel are one; not in any mood to be helpful; and two, currently trapped in a coin under several tons of rubble inside Hades vault. Add to that, Nicodemus got his ass handed to him; and word of that must have been spread far and wide by now; so there's a loss of face; plus, Nic lost (murdered) his closest and most reliable ally, his daughter Deirdre.
The condition of one or both of Nic's potential allies may change in the long-run. Plus, Nic did get the grail. However, I think the one factor everyone seems to have forgotten is that Nicodemus still has one of the coins in his possession. My guess is that coin isn't a simple thug denarian like Ursiel. I think Nicodemus needs someone capable of being a truly useful ally to carry that coin. The Genoskwa was just a thug so a thug's coin was perfect for it to carry. I don't think Nicodemus wanted someone as capable as Goodman Grey to be just another thug on his payroll...
I'm pretty sure Nic recovered all the coins (but I realize that is debated). It is clearly a HUGE strategic issue for the Denarians. Nic would have done so if at all possible.
When Michael & Harry were double-teaming him, Nic vanished, and they couldn't tell where he was.
When Harry fought Ursi/Gen to cover the others' retreat, Nic was free to recover Lasciel's coin. Then Gen got Genosquashed, and everybody ran for the Gate. Nic grabbed Gen's coin while they were running.
-
While I suspect you are right because the coins are meant to "stay in circulation" to some degree, it is hard to see him recovering the coin that was buried under semi-molten rock, and only slightly more likely that he would be able to collect the one in the middle of the active icey crush-o-matic that killed Ursiel. I suppose Ursiels coin might have rolled out of the chopper, considering their nature.
-
... it is hard to see him recovering the coin that was buried under semi-molten rock ...
Some of the rock was molten, but lots of it was in chunks; and even the molten portion would have mostly been just on the edge of molten, ready to crust over quickly. There were plenty of interstices and openings.
The shadow / Anduriel can, I think, reach in through those openings, and take no harm from the heat.
... and only slightly more likely that he would be able to collect the one in the middle of the active icey crush-o-matic that killed Ursiel ...
Anduriel lets Nicodemus fly; and fly very very fast, at that. They'd really only have to worry about one spot of the icey crush-o-matic, not the whole course; and just the split-second they swoop in to grab the coin. They watched Harry study the patterns and "solve" the whole maze... surely Nic is bright enough to figure the pattern for the one spot. Then they only need to worry about blocks dropping out of the shadows above. But: Master of Shadows, yo; Anduriel isn't going to have a problem with this.
-
This is actually something I have been a bit sceptical about on my somethings re-read. So Harry was the ice expert, but when it comes down to it could the Genoskva (and maybe Nic) have done the gate of Ice better than Harry? Or was it a lot easier to start in the cold end and then go to the "warm" end
-
This is actually something I have been a bit sceptical about on my somethings re-read. So Harry was the ice expert, but when it comes down to it could the Genoskva (and maybe Nic) have done the gate of Ice better than Harry?
Not Gen. Harry ran the course twice. Gen died the first time through.
But yeah, I think the evidence is that Nic could have just flown over it, and thrown the switch.
I don't think Anduriel knew precisely what the "Gate of Ice" was, ahead of time. If it had been more like high-speed hail, for example, I don't think Nic/Andy could have made it... or a simple mini-glacier, 100 yards of pure wall-to-wall & floor-to-ceiling ice.
-
Hmmm. I had not considered the fact that the denarians may actually be more fractured because of this. Good point. I wonder if this is the case, of if Nic came up with a really good plan whether his wife's fallen angel would still talk her into supporting him. Makes me wonder what her goals are compared to his.
If Tessa is even really in the driver's seat. Besides Imariel, there's a very real possibility she's also N-fected.
-
At the end of skin game Tessa does not direct her anger at Nicodemus but at Michael and his family. No contemplation about how she lost her daughter. Imariel and Anduriel have a good grip on their victims.
They will work together again. They already did attacking Michaels house.