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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on May 26, 2020, 04:38:05 PM
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Jim said in an interview that Peace talks was originally going to be a turning point book comparable to Changes. It turned out to be too complex and the book was split into Peace Talks and Battleground with Battleground being the turning point.
After Changes, we had big dramatic changes including:
* Molly on her own, damaged
* Dresden working for Mab
* Dresden dead, ghost and back
* Red Court Destroyed
* Major power imbalance rocking the supernatural world
* Dresden comes into his own as Warden of Demonreach
* Harry looses his job, his home, and his car
What will Battleground Bring in the sense of fundamental upsets in the "norm" comparable to what happened in changes?
Possibilities that have been hinted at or speculate on before
1) Ebeneezer dead -- and Dresden the new Blackstaff
2) The mortal world becomes "aware" of the supernatural and starts taking a very active role in the supernatural events
3) Open power struggle/splintering of the White Council
4) Public declaration of the existence of the Black Council - as an supernatural agency directly opposed to the White Council - and the White Council makes serious changes in response.
5) Thomas takes over the White Court as the White King.
6) Harry shows the world he can imprison beings in Demonreach - when they are NOT on the island
7) The Merlin dies
8) Paranet is established as a supernatural org under the accords and begins acting like a supernatural nation
What else am I missing? Which of the above possibilities (including any new ones mentioned later) seem likely?
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I hadn't heard that quote about Battleground being another turning point. That's neat to hear. Of the ones you listed, my take is these are the most likely:
1) Ebeneezer dead -- and Dresden the new Blackstaff
2) The mortal world becomes "aware" of the supernatural and starts taking a very active role in the supernatural events
3) Open power struggle/splintering of the White Council
4) Public declaration of the existence of the Black Council - as an supernatural agency directly opposed to the White Council - and the White Council makes serious changes in response.
...
8) Paranet is established as a supernatural org under the accords and begins acting like a supernatural nation
Also,
9) Everything points to Murphy kicking the bucket.
10) Harry becomes more than just the Winter Knight, he takes on more powers of winter with Mother Winter's staff (the blackstaff)
11) Toot and compatriots get much more powerful, riding on the coat tails of their Lord
12) We find out more of what the Spear of Destiny can do... I mean, how else is Harry going to defeat a Titan?
13) Maybe find out more about the other artifacts?
Edited: Add in 5) Thomas takes over the White Court as the White King. I hadn't thought about the possibility of Lara being killed. If she is killed, then Thomas being forced into taking over as White King seems possible. (Seems like Papa Raith wouild also have to bite the dust in this situation, too.)
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Any and all are possible.
If Thomas dies and Papa doesn't it breaks Margaret's death curse and Lara has problems.
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1] Big shake up on the Senior Council, it becomes even more polarized.
2] I can see Eb dying, but I doubt that Harry will become Blackstaff, simply because he is
already Winter Knight, and the Warden of Demonreach. I cannot see anyone going along with
him holding all three jobs at once.
3] Yeah, I agree I think Murphy is going to die heroically. That scene with her cutting off her cast in the trailer is too pointed. If she is that physically impaired it is doubtful that she makes it through plausibly.
4] I can see new cooperation between the two Courts led by Molly and Sarrissa along with their Knights, but I think it will be hard for both Titania and Mab to give up power. Watch Lea taking a bigger role siding with Harry and her Lady, Molly over Mab's plans.
5] I think we may see Nic, because of the influence of the Grail actually give up his coin and Harry makes him a Holy Knight weilding the Sword of Love.. He also dies.
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If Thomas dies and Papa doesn't it breaks Margaret's death curse and Lara has problems.
I don't think that's the case as long as Margaret has other descendants. So even if Harry doesn't count because he died temporarily, Maggie and Thomas Jr. would still power the spell. Maybe even Bonnie, but I doubt that one.
Of your predictions, dspringer1, I think the Paranet signing on to the Accords is the least likely. I also think the masquerade will slowly break or break in stages instead of falling all at once. These next two books will, imo, definitely be big steps in the end of the masquerade whether it happens slowly or all at once.
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Re: Dresden becomes new Blackstaff
Was it mentioned somewhere that the Blackstaff is a mantle? If so, and Eb dies, then Harry's the closest and best-prepared vessel for the mantle. So, maybe the WCouncil doesn't have a say in who gets it the staff...? Or, knowing he's going to die, Eb bestows it on Harry knowing that Harry will use it responsibly.
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Combo 2 with 8. Since I bet the Paranet would be helpful for the vanilla mortals and there's no real reason for them not to.
4 could lead to 3, but I think I can live w/ just 4 happening. Maybe if 3 gets teased but ultimately pushed aside, b/c hey, there's a big ol' titan smashing Chicago.
5 for sure.
@morriswalters: when I first read that, I was all 'what problems? What are you-oh. Oh shi-'
My WAG is that Thomas could actually 'die' but doesn't stay dead. He has a NDE and is revived after a minute or two but that's enough for the death curse on Papa Raith to break and the first one Papa goes for is Lara. She gets killed and Thomas is the one who has to kill Papa(maybe w/ Eb's help) and that's how Thomas gets the crown.
@Bad Alias: Do descendants count? It's been awhile since I've read Blood Rights or Changes.
I don't think Harry will get the blackstaff just yet. If Eb loses it(I'm not sure he'll die yet here) it might choose someone else. Harry would probably use the lance(from the cover) instead. I bet it's the one from Hades' vault. The titan can get imprisoned in Demonreach, so maybe 6 is gonna happen.
@Mira: Yeah 4 works really well. Molly and Sarissa are both young enough that their mantles haven't taken them over. Their circumstances are also unique enough that they can work together better than Titania and Mab can. I hadn't thought of how Lea would react to that.
I still don't think Murphy will die. I think she'll team up w/ Tilly at some point instead.
@EBRIAN: I think it has, yeah. But I don't think Harry will get it. Maybe it'll just go back to Winter, if that's where it's from.
Oh, maybe if Eb doesn't die, but gets injured enough that the staff could decide that Eb is too weak to wield it, that it'll just go back to where it came from. Maybe a dramatic moment will be when it chooses Mab to use it to get out of a tight spot.
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RE the Blackstaff --
I'm pretty sure the WC has owned it for quite a while, and Eb only picked it up relatively-recently. I don't think we have info on any prior wielders.
I believe we have WoJ that the Staff isn't really active in "picking" who it goes to. It's a matter of who is willing to pick it up, and bear the burden. OTOH, I'm not sure you can put it down again so easily ...
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I still don't think Murphy will die. I think she'll team up w/ Tilly at some point instead.
Murphy is being set up to leave this mortal plane in my opinion..
1] Unless it was a very bad joke, Jim mentions writing her "funeral" a while back. Now
funeral could have two meanings, a] she makes a very bad decision and the results are
metaphorically her funeral.. b] the literal, she is killed and it is her funeral. c] or he was
just pulling our collective legs..
2] Her character hasn't really "clicked" since she left the police force, Murphy is a professional
cop like her father, always was and always will be. The latest versions of her come up lacking, maybe she will end up partner to agent Tilly, but that seems off as well.
3] Lover of Harry, a real sentence of death... Not to mention unless she is cured by a miracle, a
severely injured knee that requires a cast isn't going to work very well in a serious fight. Oh yeah, she can still shoot, but she still has to get to the fight, then she has to set herself to best advantage, and someone had to help her get into position. Harry is going to be very busy, so who is going to do it? So I think she is going to do something really stupid, really heroic to save Harry, she will succeed, but she is going to die doing it..
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@Mira: LOL at 3. Yeah, that'll do it. :)
But really, I think how severe her injury will be varies. I'm not sure how much help she'll be physical wise but that's not the only role she can have, or even the most important one. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of her injury just getting erased though.
With 1, the other option is that she has a lot of family members....
But a metaphorical death is just as interesting. How do you think that'll happen?
@g33k: Yeah true. I hope PT clears this one up.
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@morriswalters: when I first read that, I was all 'what problems? What are you-oh. Oh shi-'
My WAG is that Thomas could actually 'die' but doesn't stay dead. He has a NDE and is revived after a minute or two but that's enough for the death curse on Papa Raith to break and the first one Papa goes for is Lara. She gets killed and Thomas is the one who has to kill Papa(maybe w/ Eb's help) and that's how Thomas gets the crown.
I don't really know, I could see Thomas getting killed and Harry taking his vengeance on Raith with the spear. He almost lost his mind when he learned Raith killed his mother. Let's see Raith's magic shield stop that. Fan service on my part.
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@Mira: LOL at 3. Yeah, that'll do it. :)
But really, I think how severe her injury will be varies. I'm not sure how much help she'll be physical wise but that's not the only role she can have, or even the most important one. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of her injury just getting erased though.
With 1, the other option is that she has a lot of family members....
But a metaphorical death is just as interesting. How do you think that'll happen?
@g33k: Yeah true. I hope PT clears this one up.
Well, she could really blow it as far as Harry is concerned and is ostracized from his world. Not sure how that could happen, but as we know Murphy has her own ideas about things and it results in disaster. So while she could still be alive, cut off from Harry and all his friends, knowing they want nothing more to do with her, that would be her metaphorical funeral.
Like I said, it could be a miracle, but usually cutting a cast off a weight baring limb that isn't healed to charge off to join a physical fight doesn't end very well. She dies. Oh here is an idea, Harry's nightmare comes true, Murphy accepts a coin to heal her knee so she can save Harry.. She does, but she loses because she is now a Denarian, now there is her metaphorical funeral.
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Blackstaff: It is likely to be Mother Winter's cane. Jim has said two things about who gets it when the current wielder stops being the current wielder. The first is that he chooses his successor; the second is that the successor knowingly chooses it.
Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there. The Blackstaff chooses his successor.
Would you tell us how a person gets choosen to be The Blackstaff of the White Council?
Heh. He picks up the Blackstaff with full knowledge of what he’s in for if he does. If you can find someone crazy enough to do that, and reliable enough to be trusted with it, he gets the job.
Here's everything else from https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/) about it:
How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.
Q: How is Eb protected from black magic?
A: The Blackstaff is a literal black staff. He hasn’t had it when we’ve seen him, but he has it and it protects him.
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
How did Ebenezar’s instant death spell in Changes work?
That had to do with Ebenezar’s stick. That was all to do with the Blackstaff.
Any more to elaborate?
Well, there are folks who have speculated on where the Blackstaff came from, and that should explain it for those who piece it together.
And the original owner of the Blackstaff is quite perturbed that he no longer has it – he, she, it no longer has it, so that will come into play eventually.
Since I bet the Paranet would be helpful for the vanilla mortals and there's no real reason for them not to.
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@Bad Alias: Do descendants count? It's been awhile since I've read Blood Rights or Changes.
Bob says it can be linked to a relative or "like that loup-garou guy. His own bloodline keeps the curse fueled." Emphasis added. So six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.
While it wouldn't surprise me if Murphy died, I don't see the Grim Reaper standing over her (and Eb's) shoulder(s) like everyone else seems to.
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While it wouldn't surprise me if Murphy died, I don't see the Grim Reaper standing over her (and Eb's) shoulder(s) like everyone else seems to.
I'd hate it if Eb died, his character still seems to serve it's purpose. However if it is a step necessary for Harry to continue to evolve into what he needs to become to lead the fight or be a key component in the BAT, so be it. Not sure if it has to happen just yet though.
I see Murphy dying because she has become awkward as a character for lack of a better word since
she left the police force. The tough punk rocker look as head of the Justice League, seemed weird to me. She may have worked out as a Holy Knight, but that concept got blown out of the water. I don't see her as lover to Harry for very long either, for a number of reasons. So best she die heroically, Harry can mourn her and it will be another step in his evolution..
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I don't think Harry can become Blackstaff right now, because he owes fealty to Mother Winter. That means if he recovers it he should hand her her property (and she would have to duly reward a faithful servant).
Of course one of those WoJ's says MW's perturbation comes into play, so maybe Harry is Blackstaff, MW tells him to hand it in cause it's hers, and he is difficult about it.
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@Mira: Oooh, I do like those metaphorical deaths, very cool. It's even got a basis in say 'Ghost Story'.
Tho, she might not have to have a Denarian be the one to fix her knee. Esp if it turns out humanity at large wants to fight against the supernatural, but that could be farther down the line.
Although, my initial idea of metaphorical death is that Murphy might have a fake death/funeral b/c she chooses an option that means she can go back to her old life.
@morriswalters: I do like the idea of Harry using the spear against Papa Raith. It'd be so awesome.
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... Of course one of those WoJ's says MW's perturbation comes into play ...
???
I don't recall this (at least, not phrased this way).
Can you expand, or cite?
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And the original owner of the Blackstaff is quite perturbed that he no longer has it – he, she, it no longer has it, so that will come into play eventually.
Not specifically Mother Winter, but everyone pretty much agrees that it's Mother Winter.
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Not specifically Mother Winter, but everyone pretty much agrees that it's Mother Winter.
I used to be very firmly in this camp.
These days, I'm... flexible.
;)
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A lot of the stuff taken for granted around here lacks significant textual support, though Jim has given us quite a bit about the Blackstaff. I think the theory that it's Mother Winter's is better supported than a lot of other theories taken for granted.
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???
I don't recall this (at least, not phrased this way).
Can you expand, or cite?
Last page, reply #12
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Last page, reply #12
That quote actually (is one of the bits that) has me doubting the Mother Winter theory as the source of the item: Jim, his mouth running on automatic, said "he." Then he backtracked.
It makes me wonder if the original owner of the blackstaff is more of a "he" than MW is...
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Was it mentioned somewhere that the Blackstaff is a mantle? If so, and Eb dies, then Harry's the closest and best-prepared vessel for the mantle. So, maybe the WCouncil doesn't have a say in who gets it the staff...? Or, knowing he's going to die, Eb bestows it on Harry knowing that Harry will use it responsibly.
I don't think it's a mantle per se. WOJ is that Eb became Blackstaff sometime ca 1870, but he listed New Madrid as one of the disasters he caused with it. That's ~60 years earlier, so it seems to behave as an object he could borrow for a one-time job prior to assuming the office officially (unless NM was time travel AND mass murder, anyway).
Passing it between wizards seems like a question of who understands the burden and is willing to take it when the previous holder dies, combined with the Senior Council tolerating / trusting who has it enough not to have them beheaded. But they'd have to *really* oppose someone holding it to go for that option, because it's hard to execute one of their own to get the staff away from him without breaking it to the wider membership at large that they have an illegal wetworks man.
That's the normal scenario, though. Assuming the staff is indeed Mother Winter's, which I figure about 99.9% likely, it might well jump to the Winter knight in somewhat mantle-like fashion if he's nearby and Eb died. Which would actually be horrible, because Harry probably wouldn't be willing to cause the kind of collateral damage a Blackstaff occasionally must. Plus, Mother Winter wants it back, and he doesn't have a ton of latitude to keep stolen property from her.
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I've suspected that the "Murphy's funeral" hint is a mislead of sorts... a Murphy may die, but we don't know that it's Karrin. IIRC, she's got a big family. One (or more) of her relatives might die as collateral damage
if when a big fight kicks off, especially if they're in law enforcement. That could impact the choices she makes further down the line... but that's just a WAG. (My first one! Yay?)
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Murphy is being set up to leave this mortal plane in my opinion..
Ooooh...maybe she becomes one of the einherjar. (sp?) Personally, I love Murphy. She's a favorite. Maybe she levels up.
Cheers----Be safe.
B
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Ooooh...maybe she becomes one of the einherjar. (sp?) Personally, I love Murphy. She's a favorite. Maybe she levels up.
Pretty sure Murphy's going to join TWG's team (maybe Uriel's division) if she dies but stays an active character; I don't think she'll join Vadderung.
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How about.
1. The accords are no more.
- A major power or major powers decide not to abide by the rules and either kill Mab or impose a crushing defeat upon her when she tries to enforce them.
2. The white council is no more.
- The counsil has been had some serious losses over the years with the war against the red court, the trouble with the fomor and the damage caused by Peabody that group has been diminished. A heavy blow to the senior council (let say Ancient Mai, Langtry and Eb are killed) could do away with the organization has it existed for centuries...
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2. The white council is no more.
- The counsil has been had some serious losses over the years with the war against the red court, the trouble with the fomor and the damage caused by Peabody that group has been diminished. A heavy blow to the senior council (let say Ancient Mai, Langtry and Eb are killed) could do away with the organization has it existed for centuries...
Rashid implied in TC that contending against the Council was on Harry's path at some point. I don't see them just ending because of losing some of the Senior Council. But if they lost some leaders and Cristos staged a coup over who's left? I could see that setting the stage.
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@Snark Knight
The scenario you are hinting to is even better. The council regroups around Critos and becomes a real nuisance which need to be confronted. That way the irony would be hard on Dresden. He ends fighting the council to uphold the legacy of the old council he reeled against for so long. :)