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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on May 18, 2020, 11:02:40 PM
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2 questions, here...
The Venatori know of the Oblivion War, by and large.
Q.1 -- Who else knows? The OW relies heavily on keeping it secret; indeed the OW itself is about reducing the number of people who know certain secrets -- and writings recording those secrets -- to zero.
So... who (else, besides the Venatori) knows of the OW?
Q.2 -- Who knows of the Archive's role in the Oblivion War???
Damned few, I think...
I don't think there's any real sign the Venatori themselves know of the Archive's role in it. Many of them "know of the Archive," of course: as "a signatory of the Accords" and as "a repository for human knowledge," the Archive is (to the Supernatural community at large) something of a "public figure" (albeit a reclusive or low-profile one; unlike, say, the White Court or the erzatz Reds, who keep/kept up an intentional image as dangerous and active).
But the Archive's role in the Oblivion War?
I think that knowledge is as rare (amongst those who know of the OW at all) as knowledge of the OW itself is, among supernaturals-in-general... Possibly so rare as to be unknown, within the Dresdenverse; or only known to individuals like Vaderrung, or Mab, or Anduriel.
As has already been pointed out: the Archive's obvious purpose is to collect and preserve knowledge / information; the Oblivion War's purpose is to eradicate it. So the Archive has a "cover story" that's reasonably solid... indeed, I might wonder if some Venatori (ignorant of the Archive's genuine role) might conclude the Archive's known "collect/preserve" function is actually a huge threat to the Oblivion War! :o ;D
Thoughts? Insights? Facts I have overlooked?
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Interesting, interesting.
I imagine there would be a few supernaturals who are aware. Kringle I am sure. Mab. Any being with Intellectus that covers that sort of thing in the scope (so probably all Angels, fallen or otherwise). Naturally, the probably were also aware of the Archives role.
I would be willing to bet it was a "good" supernatural entity allied with humanity that helped create the Archive for that purpose, and it's secondary cover purpose. Kringle, or perhaps Thoth (if they aren't the same being...Thoth is the equivalent of Hermes and Hermes is the equivalent of Odin apparently).
As for mortals (and the somewhat mortal like the WCV)...I would say very, very few but the most senior know. And perhaps one or two very knowledgeable people (like maybe the Merlin or Gatekeeper).
It would be amusing if the Venators believed that the Archive itself was a threat to be forgotten. But I doubt it. I could see a rogue Venator zealot deciding that though. I imagine that as part of it's purpose, the end function when all the supernatural are consigned to Oblivion is to shut the Archive down. Perhaps a self-destruct is built in.
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Reading the blurbs about it, the main weapon is the Archive. From what I read the Archive is the keeper of the memories of the dead, until it decides the memory of that particular being doesn't need
to exist anymore.. Zap! That is that.. So maybe no one knows except the Archive..
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According to Thomas in Backup they tried to get rid of the fairy courts but Mab prevented that.
There was an old book on the table next to the candies, set carefully and precisely in place beside the dish. It was titled Kinder- und Hausmärchen. I leaned down and opened it. The text was in German. It was really old. The pages were made of paper of the finest quality, thin and crisp and edged in gold foil. On the title page, under the title, were the names Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and the year 1812.
It was autographed, and personalized, “For Mab.” I couldn’t read the text, so I settled for the illustrations. It was better than reading those stupid celebrity magazines in every other waiting room, and was probably more grounded in reality
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Reading the blurbs about it, the main weapon is the Archive. From what I read the Archive is the keeper of the memories of the dead, until it decides the memory of that particular being doesn't need to exist anymore.. Zap! That is that.. So maybe no one knows except the Archive..
The Archive serves 2 purposes. As you note, she does the ZAPping -- she is the coup de grace.
But before she does that, she tracks every time someone commits anything to writing, and when she sees signs of an Oblivion Target, she dispatches an assassin (or if needed a team, presumably) to deal with the situation.
So she is intel/recon, and command&control (in addition to being Cap'n Zap).
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I assume Rashif as Gatekeepr would know. Blackstaff might as well. Rashid says the White Council only knows as much as it needs to. Aand that theres paperwork for coming back from the dead.
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The Archive serves 2 purposes. As you note, she does the ZAPping -- she is the coup de grace.
But before she does that, she tracks every time someone commits anything to writing, and when she sees signs of an Oblivion Target, she dispatches an assassin (or if needed a team, presumably) to deal with the situation.
So she is intel/recon, and command&control (in addition to being Cap'n Zap).
I doubt that it does it directly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ivy isn't even aware when it is being done. I bet it is all very "Mission Impossible," nothing can be traced back to the source of the orders.
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ccording to Thomas in Backup they tried to get rid of the fairy courts but Mab prevented that.
There was an old book on the table next to the candies, set carefully and precisely in place beside the dish. It was titled Kinder- und Hausmärchen. I leaned down and opened it. The text was in German. It was really old. The pages were made of paper of the finest quality, thin and crisp and edged in gold foil. On the title page, under the title, were the names Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and the year 1812.
It was autographed, and personalized, “For Mab.” I couldn’t read the text, so I settled for the illustrations. It was better than reading those stupid celebrity magazines in every other waiting room, and was probably more grounded in reality
Or further back, in Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" there is reference to "Queen Mab," which is a hundred and fifty years or more earlier.
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I assume Rashif as Gatekeepr would know. Blackstaff might as well. Rashid says the White Council only knows as much as it needs to. Aand that theres paperwork for coming back from the dead.
On the one hand, Rashid knows way too much.
On the other hand, how does the Oblivion War cross his path? It is about locking things away from Earth in the Nevernever, not about (so far as I can tell) locking things Outside. It seems greedy to make him also the Senior Councillor to know the truth about the Oblivion War and the Archive.
More importantly - we know the White Council SOP is the wrong counter for the Oblivion War even as it's great for diffusing dangerous rituals. I think anyone in the Council who knows can't be so solidly in power as the Gatekeeper or Merlin. Ebenezar? Maybe. Martha Liberty or Eldest Mai? Certainly possible, if more unlikely (Martha is supposedly about knowledge gathering). But the Merlin or Gatekeeper? They seem too big to know the Oblivion War and yet do the wrong thing.
As to who knows of the Archive's role; I would say the Angels are indeed good candidates (or at least intel people Uriel and Anduriel; does Michael have a need-to-know? Or even a need-to-consider, since he probably has Intellectus), but apart from that it's going to be a VERY short list. I suspect Anduriel hasn't told Nicodemus why the Archive was such a good candidate (because Nic becomes rather obsolete if Anduriel has his claws in the Archive). For all we know Anduriel whispered in the old Archive's ear to commit suicide.
The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive. So if any of them know, Odin/Kringle and the Mothers seem the only reasonable ones.
Or, of course, one of the Fae started it, so Mab thought 'humm, our Archive is going after me, but I know how this works'.
Lara and Thomas seem to not know the Archive, so in general I would exclude the Vampire Courts; if anyone would know, it'd be in papa Raith's library (or his mind, and Lara has access to both).
From there we only know a handful; Dragons or Drakul? Possible, but no specifics. Old Greek gods? Athena could easily be one of the sources of the Fae (so see there) but otherwise would likely know, Hades has other things to do, most of the rest is too frivolous or aggressive (unless, as above, Hermes is now Odin). Maybe Apollo, as the god of the Pythia and other seers (though Gaia may have been the first worshipped at Delphi).
And of course, there's a sponsor. Of the people given who know, Uriel and Odin seem the most logical, but the matrilinear linkage suggests a female source to me (though Uriel could undoubtedly be counted as female if need be, the showings so far have been male, and we know from the Fallen that Angels do have gendered tendencies).
So who, then?
Of the maybe candidates given, I do quite like Athena; she fits as goddess of wisdom, and if her essence went into the Archive Ivy would be resurrecting an old part of her by patronizing Harry the Hero (and in the Odyssey, Athena is also often confined to giving advice from afar, rather than intervening directly). According to pre-classical analysis 'Athena' may just be the Athenian representative (and eventually name-giver) of a more general 'city goddess', and of course the Archive has a bit of sense of human civilization against the rest, quite fitting for a city goddess.
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I doubt that it does it directly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ivy isn't even aware when it is being done. I bet it is all very "Mission Impossible," nothing can be traced back to the source of the orders.
Or further back, in Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" there is reference to "Queen Mab," which is a hundred and fifty years or more earlier.
I think WOJ is that Kincaid was leaving the orders as dead drops, but he didn't know what or for who.
I wonder what she's doing for dispatching orders without him around lately.
And in reply to Avernite, I wouldn't assume attempting to get rid of the Fae was a proper order that came down from the Archive. I find it hard to believe she doesn't know what Winter is actually doing, and how disastrous for earth it would be to cripple or eliminate the Sidhe. That could have been one of the monsters among the Venators deciding on their own initiative to try to eliminate Winter as "competition" and/or Summer for protecting humanity.
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I think WOJ is that Kincaid was leaving the orders as dead drops, but he didn't know what or for who.
I wonder what she's doing for dispatching orders without him around lately.
If that is true, one does wonder if Ivy is aware of what the Archive is doing? Also if the firing was purely emotional and ultimately will put her in conflict with the Archive.
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If that is true, one does wonder if Ivy is aware of what the Archive is doing? Also if the firing was purely emotional and ultimately will put her in conflict with the Archive.
I assume the Archive has tricks up her sleeve to accomodate the occasional emotional decision. I assume the Archive must be carried by functional humans (even if only barely, though Ivy's grandma hired a bodyguard/assasin just fine) so some emotion will always bleed through.
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I assume the Archive has tricks up her sleeve to accomodate the occasional emotional decision. I assume the Archive must be carried by functional humans (even if only barely, though Ivy's grandma hired a bodyguard/assasin just fine) so some emotion will always bleed through.
Ivy's mother was able to take her own life, so strong emotion must trump the Archive. I think that is what Luccio was getting at when she stressed the importance of the Host remaining emotionally detached.
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Ivy's mother was able to take her own life, so strong emotion must trump the Archive. I think that is what Luccio was getting at when she stressed the importance of the Host remaining emotionally detached.
Exactly... and yet the Archive is still a going concern.
Compared to her mother's suicide, Ivy firing Kincaid would be just a minor blemish.
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Exactly... and yet the Archive is still a going concern.
Compared to her mother's suicide, Ivy firing Kincaid would be just a minor blemish.
True, nothing trumps her mother's suicide, however we do not know as of yet the consequences of her firing Kincaid. Nor what all of that implies as far as her feelings for Harry.
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She needs to hire someone else. She has the knwoledge to make a good choice.
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She needs to hire someone else. She has the knwoledge to make a good choice.
Somehow I doubt that it will be that simple.. :-\
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Somehow I doubt that it will be that simple.. :-\
Jim has the power to make it complicated.
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Jim has the power to make it complicated.
Ivy shows up to the Peace Talks with >Mavra< as her new bodyguard ...
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indeed, I might wonder if some Venatori (ignorant of the Archive's genuine role) might conclude the Archive's known "collect/preserve" function is actually a huge threat to the Oblivion War! :o ;D
I have to admit that hadn't even occurred to me.
The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive.
Harry figures out why she would do it on the spot. The "physics" that lead to the Oblivion War being a thing that's even possible could be much more widely known than the Oblivion War itself. Mab could have known that knowledge of faeries was dying out, that was a bad thing for her, acted to spread knowledge of faeries, and been ignorant of the War actually happening. Further, knowing that the Oblivion War is happening, doesn't mean that they know the Archive is directing it, so your logic would dictate that if Mab knows of the War, she doesn't know of the Archive or finds her benefits outweigh the need for reprisal/preemptive action.
Ivy doesn't need a body guard to manage blind dead drops to the Venatori.
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I have to admit that hadn't even occurred to me.
Harry figures out why she would do it on the spot. The "physics" that lead to the Oblivion War being a thing that's even possible could be much more widely known than the Oblivion War itself. Mab could have known that knowledge of faeries was dying out, that was a bad thing for her, acted to spread knowledge of faeries, and been ignorant of the War actually happening. Further, knowing that the Oblivion War is happening, doesn't mean that they know the Archive is directing it, so your logic would dictate that if Mab knows of the War, she doesn't know of the Archive or finds her benefits outweigh the need for reprisal/preemptive action.
Ivy doesn't need a body guard to manage blind dead drops to the Venatori.
Well, yes, that's what I said?
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No, you suggested that the Fae know that the that the Oblivion War is a thing and that Mab knows the Archive is running it. I responded that one does not need to know that the Oblivion War is happening to recognize that a being (or group) is being forgotten, what that will mean for it, and then to do something about it. I further stated that even if Mab knows of the War, that doesn't mean she knows that the Archive has anything to do with it. Your viciousness statement indicates that it is unlikely that Mab knows of the Archive even if she does know of the Oblivion War.
What I'm saying is that Mab's actions are not even decent evidence that she knows that the Oblivion War is happening.
The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive. So if any of them know, Odin/Kringle and the Mothers seem the only reasonable ones.
Or, of course, one of the Fae started it, so Mab thought 'humm, our Archive is going after me, but I know how this works'.
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The Fae decline would have been a product of the age of reason, the same thing in the Dresdenverse that keeps magic hidden. Mab knows something about the Archive since she spent no small amount of effort either protecting her or attempting to kill her. The Archive certainly is aware of Mab's going ons. Assuming that the Archive is playing the long game she has other priorities that are easier to obliviate.
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No, you suggested that the Fae know that the that the Oblivion War is a thing and that Mab knows the Archive is running it. I responded that one does not need to know that the Oblivion War is happening to recognize that a being (or group) is being forgotten, what that will mean for it, and then to do something about it. I further stated that even if Mab knows of the War, that doesn't mean she knows that the Archive has anything to do with it. Your viciousness statement indicates that it is unlikely that Mab knows of the Archive even if she does know of the Oblivion War.
What I'm saying is that Mab's actions are not even decent evidence that she knows that the Oblivion War is happening.
Okay, so we agree that Mab doesn't know the Archive is leading the Oblivion war (with my addendum being "unless she/the fae/some of the characters who became the fae/... started it"). I guess that bit stuck from your post leaving your disagreement on the rest fuzzy to me.
As to Mab knowing, I would think an additional argument for her knowing is that Thomas' opponent in Backup knew exactly what was going on; if some two-bit chump cult knows, it'd be pretty sad if Mab didn't notice when she was being targetted.
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Mab knows something about the Archive.
Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.
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Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.
Granted, but to me it's probably straining credulity if none of them intellectus-ers wondered 'why did someone make the Archive'.
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Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.
You don't know what you don't know. Who could know? The Mothers for one. Every time that the Archive buries the knowledge of some entity it changes the future since they are no longer in it. Archangels should know and the White God. And whoever created her. Anybody else could know, but no one has been revealed as knowing.
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Granted, but to me it's probably straining credulity if none of them intellectus-ers wondered 'why did someone make the Archive'.
Except that Intellectus seems to be kind of domain-specific. On the island, Jim can know everything about the island, that he actively considers or thinks to wonder about. He couldn't ask about Ivy or the Archive.
And he doesn't know everything about visitors to the island; in fact, he hardly knows anything, really, other than their presence. He can notice footsteps, but cannot probe the details of the people making those steps. Rounding a corner to confront an intruder, he doesn't know if it'll be one of Binder's mooks, or a top-tier supernatural assassin, or something else entirely.
Whose Intellectus would cover the Archive, let them automagically know anything/everything about it? Whose even could?
We don't know, really. It isn't something Jim has developed in the stories, spelled out in AMA's/etc in the WoJ's (AFAIK).
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automagically
Nice.
Speaking of intellectus, I've long thought that even Toot has intellectus when it comes to languages and Winter Law. After Harry asks Toot how he speaks Russian, Toot says "you just speak it, don't you? I mean, come on." When Harry asked Toot where he (Harry) could learn Winter Law, Toot responded "I don't understand."
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Speaking of intellectus, I've long thought that even Toot has intellectus when it comes to languages and Winter Law. After Harry asks Toot how he speaks Russian, Toot says "you just speak it, don't you? I mean, come on." When Harry asked Toot where he (Harry) could learn Winter Law, Toot responded "I don't understand."
I think it's something more primal/instinctual than "intellectus."
A faerie doesn't even have to think about it -- it's just part of them.
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Molly has to think about it. I don't know it that would mean that you're wrong or that Molly is less solidly a fairy than we have been led to believe.
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Molly has to think about it. I don't know it that would mean that you're wrong or that Molly is less solidly a fairy than we have been led to believe.
You do not get answers on questions you did not ask.
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And as a member of Winter, even if not a true fairy, Molly can't give away answers for free. There has to be a price to pay, a bargain struck...
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Molly has to think about it. I don't know it that would mean that you're wrong or that Molly is less solidly a fairy than we have been led to believe.
Well, I mean, can't have those nature spirits do their own thing. They need mighty whitey humans to oversee them and lead them
(no I don't think Jim was thinking that racist)
That said, I do believe the Queens are specifically not quite fairy. They have something more, to be able to do more. I believe they borrow from humanity to allow Faerie to grow in power (after all, human choice is the great unbalancer).
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Toot Toot and his brethren brains are too small to support language. Their skills come from the cloud, on demand. And if Molly goes to Mother Russia she'll speak Russian too. Call it the Faerie Universal Translator. ;)
As per usual Harry is the last to know.
One of the functions of the Outer Gates.
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Molly has to think about it. I don't know it that would mean that you're wrong or that Molly is less solidly a fairy than we have been led to believe.
I think Bob said that the Lady's Mantles take a few years to really have their full effect.
After a decade -- for most new bearers of the Mantle -- it's hard to find any differences between the old Lady and the new Lady. "Welcome to the new Aurora, same as the old Aurora."
So Molly probably is largely herself. Still bound by Winter Law, because the Mantle is, but not really incorporating Winter the way Mab does.
I don't know that we EVER saw Maeve who was genuinely Winterfae -- Nemesis makes them able to break Winter Law.
Huh; it just occurred to me... would you take look at that...!
Ya know what else lets you break the Law? The blackstaff. It lets you cast Black Magic all day long, without the stain and corruption seeping into you.
Maybe we were wrong all along. Maybe it isn't Mother Winter's Walking Stick. Maybe it's a tool of the Outsiders...
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Maybe we were wrong all along. Maybe it isn't Mother Winter's Walking Stick. Maybe it's a tool of the Outsiders...
Jim said it had something to do with Celtic mythology.
Edit: Specifically around 1065.
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I think Bob said that the Lady's Mantles take a few years to really have their full effect.
After a decade -- for most new bearers of the Mantle -- it's hard to find any differences between the old Lady and the new Lady. "Welcome to the new Aurora, same as the old Aurora."
So Molly probably is largely herself. Still bound by Winter Law, because the Mantle is, but not really incorporating Winter the way Mab does.
I don't know that we EVER saw Maeve who was genuinely Winterfae -- Nemesis makes them able to break Winter Law.
Huh; it just occurred to me... would you take look at that...!
Ya know what else lets you break the Law? The blackstaff. It lets you cast Black Magic all day long, without the stain and corruption seeping into you.
Maybe we were wrong all along. Maybe it isn't Mother Winter's Walking Stick. Maybe it's a tool of the Outsiders...
I think you have to take Bob's words with a big heap of salt. Maeve was ignoring her duties for more than a century before Nemesis got her.
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Jim said it had something to do with Celtic mythology.
Edit: Specifically around 1065.
Yeah, but that hardly rules-out it being an Outsider thing!
Isn't that the same timeframe of the big shake-up in the Queens' hierarchies, and another Starborn running around, and Winter taking over the Outer Gates (evidently from the Aesir & Vanir), and all that shit?
Sounds like a major Outsider incursion, and the fallout afterwards.
Sure, maybe Mother Winter lost her walking stick in the kerfuffle. But maybe instead a Walker lost HIS stick ...
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Yeah, but that hardly rules-out it being an Outsider thing!
Agreed, but I do think it goes against it.
Isn't that the same timeframe of the big shake-up in the Queens' hierarchies, and another Starborn running around, and Winter taking over the Outer Gates (evidently from the Aesir & Vanir), and all that shit?
I wasn't around here when the whole "Winter taking over the Outer Gates" from some group theories seemed to be cemented in the collective. All I know is that Winter took over at some point. I don't know who had it before or when the switch happened. I don't know how reasonable any of those theories are other than what seems obvious.
Mab hasn't spoken to Titania "since Hastings." Everyone assumes that is a reference to the Battle of Hastings. I agree, but I realize that it is an assumption. That doesn't mean there was a big shake-up. It could be that's when they became Ladies. It could be when they became Queens. (But see WoJ quoted below). It could be when one of them became a Queen.
Here's the quote about a Starborn running around:How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
If the "there" where Mab's been for more than 1,000 years is Winter Queen, then she was the Winter Queen before the Battle of Hastings because it's still not 2065, much less "better than."
I think the "she" in the last sentence of the quote is the Winter Lady before Maeve. It could be Mab or Maeve, but I don't think so. That would place the last Starborn running around to somewhere during or after the lifetime of an Austrian composer who died young.
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... an Austrian composer who died young.
That was probably a fellow named Mozart.
Apparently he knew music the way Shiro knew the sword (and we know how much the fae love their mortal musicians!).
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I'll take your word for it. He fits the description, and I'd be surprised if it was someone I've never heard of. I don't know enough about Austrian composers to venture a guess as to whether or not someone else fits.
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I think Bob said that the Lady's Mantles take a few years to really have their full effect.
After a decade -- for most new bearers of the Mantle -- it's hard to find any differences between the old Lady and the new Lady. "Welcome to the new Aurora, same as the old Aurora."
So Molly probably is largely herself. Still bound by Winter Law, because the Mantle is, but not really incorporating Winter the way Mab does.
I don't know that we EVER saw Maeve who was genuinely Winterfae -- Nemesis makes them able to break Winter Law.
Huh; it just occurred to me... would you take look at that...!
Ya know what else lets you break the Law? The blackstaff. It lets you cast Black Magic all day long, without the stain and corruption seeping into you.
Maybe we were wrong all along. Maybe it isn't Mother Winter's Walking Stick. Maybe it's a tool of the Outsiders...
Or maybe it was the one tool the Fae could use to skirt their rules; making Mother Winter the one Fae who isn't fully limited by Fae rules (hence being able to tolerate iron as we saw, and perhaps even lying).