ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on May 13, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
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Some thoughts on why I think Cowl is Simon & not Kemmler/Justin/ time traveling or alterna-Harry. I’m open to changing my mind about this however.
Simon as Cowl makes sense to me for a few reasons:
- Simon was the Council’s vampire expert - Cowl has been seen with Ramps (Bianca’s ball/ coordinating attacks on the Council during Ramp sorties etc); he’s working with some Whamps (White Night) & the fact that Mavra is the one who put Dresden into the necromacers’ path in Dead Beat shows that there is likely a Blamp connection as well.
- Cowl starts operating more openly around the time of Simon’s death, almost like Cowl was a persona created by Simon to step into when he felt the time was right.
- In Dead Beat Cowl is surmised to be stronger than Ebenezer by Harry (right or wrong, Harry explicitly feels the need to compare Cowl’s hits to McCoy’s) - as a Senior Council member who is likely older, Simon would be stronger than Eb.
- Something is fishy about the whole Archangel attack by Ortega - a Ramp strike team is able to infiltrate a well guarded garrison of the Council’s combat heavies but a mysterious explosion wipes everything out so there’s little evidence/ no survivors to tell anyone of what actually happened (surmised to be Simon’s death curse).
- Ebenezer clearly doesn’t agree with a lot of the Council’s actions & policies, it would make sense that one of his close friends on the Council would feel similarly about it - perhaps enough to try & destroy it.
Why I disagree with the Cowl is Kemmler theories (although I believe Kemmler has a role to play in the series yet):
- Grevane & Corpsetaker knew Cowl & seemed to have known him since their Kemmler disciple days. They would never dream on taking on their master in Dead Beat - if anything, they would help him perform the Darkhallow no matter whose body Kemmler was in.
- If Cowl is Kemmler/ Kemmler’s spirit inhabiting someone etc, why does he need the book or Bob in Dead Beat to perform the Darkhallow? Indeed why didn’t he perform it any time in the years preceding or after Dead Beat?
- Cowl specifically does not like being called a Kemmlerite & refers to Kemmler as a ‘bad man’ in Dead Beat.
- Kemmler was the guy who started 2 world wars & was a huge threat (big enough to get the ENTIRE White Council together to finally strike him down). As Cowl his stature seems to be vastly diminished. I also expect Kemmler would’ve wiped the floor with any single Senior Council member, so Harry & a few werewolves wouldn’t have scared him off in Dead Beat.
Why I disagree that Cowl is Justin (Justin had THE necromancer’s database in Bob for 20 years, I’m sure he knew a way to ‘cheat’ death):
- It would make his statement about wondering what has the Council riled up about Harry strange at their first encounter in DB - you’d think that after fighting a duel with 16 yr old Harry, Justin would be a lot more cautious now... (whether or not Justin actually won or lost the duel, 16 yr old Harry still defeated an Outsider Walker...)
- If Cowl were Justin, I’d expect him to be a lot more personally interested in Harry even now - we know Starborn don’t grow on trees. This is a man who spent a decade of his life raising 2 preteens for a purpose, why wouldn’t he want to keep manipulating Harry instead of disengaging like he has since Harry was 16?
- Justin had Bob for ~20 years before he adopted Harry - why didn’t he perform the Darkhallow any time during this period if he were so inclined?
- While I’m sure Justin was a formidable warden & all back in the day, he didn’t strike me as someone who was a big enough player to stealthily adopt 2 Starborn (or even know what they are) from the under the noses of people like Eb & Morgan - it would make more sense if he were doing these things under the directions of his old master, Simon.
Why I disagree with Cowl being Harry from another universe/ time travel:
- As Odin tells Harry in Cold Days, there is a Law of Conservation of History - so a time traveling Harry would have great difficulty in doing things that matter significantly if he were to go into the past as Cowl.
- If Cowl is any version of Harry, he would have Harry’s number in any fight between the 2, however somehow OG Harry has come out on top in all their actual confrontations (although Cowl managed to walk away each time)
- Kemmler’s disciples know Cowl & he knows them well - since Kemmler has been dead for more than 5 decades by the time of Dead Beat, what would time traveling or alterna-Harry have been doing for that time in the interim?
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The Council came down on Simon for getting involved with the Czar, according to the Paranet Papers. He could have a similar motivation to Injun Joe's of not wanting to watch something get destroyed again because of some principal.
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... In Dead Beat Cowl is surmised to be stronger than Ebenezer by Harry (right or wrong, Harry explicitly feels the need to compare Cowl’s hits to McCoy’s) - as a Senior Council member who is likely older, Simon would be stronger than Eb ...
I'm pretty sure that -- in straight-up combat -- McCoy is generally held to be the WC's heaviest hitter. That consensus could be wrong, of course!
I'm certain that Eb never hit Harry with anything like his full power... Harry, as narrator, therefore isn't qualified to judge between McCoy & Cowl (not that I think Cowl has ever hit Harry with his full force, either (fwiw)).
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Why I disagree that Cowl is Justin (Justin had THE necromancer’s database in Bob for 20 years, I’m sure he knew a way to ‘cheat’ death):
- It would make his statement about wondering what has the Council riled up about Harry strange at their first encounter in DB - you’d think that after fighting a duel with 16 yr old Harry, Justin would be a lot more cautious now... (whether or not Justin actually won or lost the duel, 16 yr old Harry still defeated an Outsider Walker...)
That comment also leans toward Simon. As a SC member, he would have seen the Wardens' files on Harry.
It's not ironclad, since Cowl could have got those reports through Peabody too. But Simon was close to Ebenezar - it would make sense for him to take an interest in the kid Eb stuck his neck out to save and mentor, even if he didn't recognize the familial connection (and I wouldn't bet against him knowing about that).
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When someone asked Jim he powerful death curses could be, he responded by saying that it was Simon’s death curse that took out all of thode Red Court nobles.
So:
A. The people at Archangel really got caught with their pants down, So much so that they didn’t manage any real resistance, and
B. Simon really is dead. Dead dead.
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I don't necessarily think that Simon isn't Cowl. But I am not entirely convinced he isn't Justin either.
Jim often says people who are prime candidates are dead. But he also actively lies to us, and he also says death is a spectrum not a line. Dead isn't the same as gone.
So as far as I am concerned, being dead doesn't rule ANYONE out.
I will play devil's advocate though, for the sake of argument.
Simon:
- It is true, we first see Cowl on stage (although unnamed and in the background) just before Simon is first mentioned (and is said to have been assassinated). But Cowl was around LONG before Summer Knight. That is made clear in Dead Beat - at least from how Corpsetaker and Grevane talk about it. Which doesn't disprove that he created a persona potentially but that theory could apply to Justin just as easily.
- Simon was the vamps expert, but both Justin and Margaret worked with Red and White Courts at least (if not the Black as well). The meeting Eb was invited to had Lord Raith, Ariana Ortega, Paolo Ortega (I think), and several others (I'd be willing to bet Mavra) and maybe a Denarian or two. Justin was also present.
- The comparison to Lea and Eb and Justin is interesting (in terms of Cowl's magical right hook). Because Harry had never dueled them in earnest and seen what they could really do. My thinking is that Dresden had no other frame of reference for a Wizard duel at that point, so used what he had. Still though, I think it is a reasonable assumption that Cowl is almost Senior Council level at least, if as strong as any of them (if not stronger). Both Grevane and Corpsetaker found it unlikely Harry would have survived a duel with him. Interestingly, from what I have seen of Eb and LtW (and other Senior Council magic) I have found Cowl to be quite under-powered and tactically foolish. He got beaten by Harry and a few Wolves, despite also having Kumori (although one could argue that they were merely retreating or choosing to not have a flat-out fight). Rashid can put people to sleep effortlessly (and I suspect kill much the same), and he and the Merlin have both stopped an army of Outsiders with a single ward. LtW fought a Naagloshii and caused it to flee. Eb has caused more destruction via spellwork that just about anyone (afaik). Martha Liberty can do near perfect veils. Merlin (Langtry) controlled a Mistfiend single handed and contained and ordered a room in microseconds. LaFortier was supposedly able to cast mass illusions. Cristos took out a Rakshasa. And Simon himself has diverted the course of rivers and burned armies, not to mention apparently wiping out hundreds of vampires and vampire nobles with his Death Curse. Whilst Cowl is deadly at the time we meet him, and strangley resistant to damage, he isn't on the same scale (from what we have seen).
- I agree something is definitely fishy about Archangel. Definitely an inside job; but that's been clear from the get go. I think the suspect pool is very small. Even Peabody wouldn't have had enough information. Justin was considered a candidate (if he hadn't been dead - they believe he could have told Harry which implies they believe Justin would have had a way in). This of course doesn't address that Elaine also is just as much of a candidate as Harry for the same reasons he is. Of course, the whole thing could be a set-up.
- In the Paranet Papers, it is clear Simon chafes at the restrictions of the White Council and flouts the rules until Eb makes it clear to him that he can no longer. Simon also causes the worst damage to human politics since the original Merlin, apparently (due to his interference in Russia during the revolution). So it tracks that he is a very viable candidate. Cowl even talks about how many chafe at the restrictions of the White Council.
Kemmler:
- Although I think this is the most unlikely candidate, it is possible that Kemmler might be playing an incognito game. But one thinks the other Necromancers would recognise him and he would want to organise them.
- Your second point is basically irrefutable. He wouldn't need Bob were he Kemmler. And why would he wait until that Halloween?
- Kemmler is definitely a bigger threat than Cowl, in terms of destruction in the short-term. Long-term though...
Justin:
- You're assuming that the duel was exactly as Harry remembers (and his mind wasn't altered). We already know that some memories of that night were incomplete. The duel also could have been a farce.
- Even if Justin was defeated, doesn't mean he didn't cheat and come back like Kemmler or Corpsetaker.
- Cowl seems awfully interested in Harry. And who says isn't manipulating Harry?
- I admit, the encounter didn't seem that familiar. But that might have been the point, too.
- My guess is that Cowl never intended to perform the Darkhallow. The pace was set by others, so he had to turn to a last resort. The way he talks about it to Harry suggests that he wouldn't have done it if he didn't have to. He truly believes it is the best & only option (rather than a mad rush for power). Which is why Justin wouldn't have used Bob's knowledge. Time is pressing now, he might have run out of options.
- You wouldn't need to be a big player necessarily to steal the kids - just well connected. He had a Walker as an ally, among others. But he was also a psychomancer (if I recall correctly). So he could have done things they just didn't expect.
Alternate/TT Harry:
- Yeah, this is maybe even less likely that Kemmler.
- The height isn't mentioned. Harry always mentions people's height if it is close or greater than his.
- The Law of Conservation of History
- He should definitely have Harry's number. Current Harry would have mopped the floor with DB Harry.
- Yeah, the time stuff doesn't match up.
Which all gets to a new WAG I have. Cowl isn't just one person. Perhaps Cowl is both Justin and Simon - each wearing the hood and filling in when necessary. But who knows? I can't really pick between Simon and Justin, they are the closest and there are both excellent arguments for and against.
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- Even if Justin was defeated, doesn't mean he didn't cheat and come back like Kemmler or Corpsetaker.
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- You wouldn't need to be a big player necessarily to steal the kids - just well connected. He had a Walker as an ally, among others. But he was also a psychomancer (if I recall correctly). So he could have done things they just didn't expect.
From what we learned in Ghost Story, fire is just as deadly to ghosts and naked souls as to humans. Dying in a fire means your spirit is detaching from your body ... into the middle of a fire. I'm pretty sure this is why a flamethrower was included in Jim's description of how the Council finally made Kemmler's death stick when they executed him with mortal weapons.
I'm also not entirely sure after the GS flashback that Harry was correct in assuming the Walker worked for Justin.
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@Snark Knight
Good catch on the flamethrowers being used in 1961 at Kemmler’s last stand - it does make the Harry’s duel with Justin seem more final.
Also agree that Cowl’s quote about the wardens’ view of Harry in their first meet points more to Simon than Justin.
So do you also think Simon is the most likely candidate for Cowl?
@Yuillegan
Some interesting points for sure & I agree that when talking about powerful wizards, death doesn’t seem to be the end. Achilles absent, is Achilles still I suppose.
- My point about Simon creating the Cowl identity was that Cowl started operating out in the open after Simon’s death - before that he seemed to be even more shadowy.
- I don’t know if there is proof that Justin was that the shindig Maggie Sr & Lord Raith threw back in the 1960s, although I suspect he was in attendance as well.
Separately what connections did Justin have in the vampire courts that we know of? I mean presumably he could’ve met some vampires when he was still Simon’s apprentice, but Simon is known to be the Council’s vampire expert. Cowl had intimate knowledge of White Court politics & high enough connections in the Red Court to be coordinating major attacks with them in their war on the Council (I’ll bet he was the one calling up Outsiders in many of these attacks). - So while Harry does say that Eb is the heavyweight champion of the Council, it is pointed out that wizards gain power with age & Eb is likely the least powerful of the SC (I’m sure it’s meant in more ways than just 1:1 combat). Harry also does say on a couple of occasions that Langtry is the most powerful wizard alive.
- I definitely think Archangel was an inside job. It’s possible that as Simon’s apprentice, Justin would’ve known how he set up his wards & would’ve been able to get through (like Elaine does to Harry in SK), although Simon setting this up is equally likely
- I don’t know if I’d call Cowl under-powered or tactically deficient. Harry knows he can’t beat him 1:1 after their first meeting in DB so he doesn’t even bother trying after. Which of Cowl’s tactics didn’t you like?
About Justin as Cowl:
- I wouldn’t say Cowl is very interested in Harry. In fact we have never seen Cowl seek out Harry - their paths seem to cross every few years. In DB he does offer to take Harry as an apprentice but that’s about it (Grevane also makes this offer) - he’s actively pissed in WN that Madrigal deliberately involved Harry in the plot.
- To your point that Cowl was performing the Darkhallow as a last resort - I do think there is some truth to this, although it seems like the most insane way to resolve the situation
- Regarding Justin’s duel with Harry - it seems obvious that there was a lot more going on during the duel, but the question I haven’t been able to answer is what was the advantage to Justin in pulling this move?
As a retiree of sorts he was off most people’s radar, which is how he raises Harry & Elaine for those years, so its not like Simon where he was a SC member. It also revealed Harry’s existence to the White Council, tarnished his own reputation & removed 2 Starborn out of his control completely (unless he’s made Elaine a fine thrall I suppose).
@AClone
What Red Court nobles did Simon’s death curse take out? Ortega was operational after the events of Archangel. There is also #C: Simon set off an explosion before pulling some necromantic shenanigans
@g33k
We know Harry believes this currently about Eb being the Council’s heavyweight champion, but that could change. Rashid & Langtry would come out on top I believe.
So Cowl doesn’t exactly hit Harry as hard as he can in their first meet in DB either - it was a test to see how strong Harry was.
@Bad Alias
Interesting - I had no idea of Simon’s backstory in the Paranet Papers, but it certainly makes him a more likely candidate for Cowl
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Yuillegan did a much better job detailing it than I did.
If you haven't read any of the Paranet Papers, they're well worth reading if you can get your hands on a copy. They're kind of expensive if you're not looking actually use them to play. I'd rank them as soft canon just above the comic books. The way they're structured is to be vague about whether or not the things in them are true. The premise is that they're written by Billy, Bob, Murphy, and Harry. They're a working draft of a Bram Stoker's Dracula for the 21st century and not just black court vampires. They have reports of events from paraneters from all over the Americas. Because of that, it would be a very unreliable narrator kind of situation even if it was considered fully canon by Jim.
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... So while Harry does say that Eb is the heavyweight champion of the Council, it is pointed out that wizards gain power with age & Eb is likely the least powerful of the SC (I’m sure it’s meant in more ways than just 1:1 combat). Harry also does say on a couple of occasions that Langtry is the most powerful wizard alive ...
@g33k
We know Harry believes this currently about Eb being the Council’s heavyweight champion, but that could change. Rashid & Langtry would come out on top I believe.
So Cowl doesn’t exactly hit Harry as hard as he can in their first meet in DB either - it was a test to see how strong Harry was ...
Well, we know Eb was the Captain of the Wardens more than a century ago, and has presumably only gotten stronger since then. Morgan was strong enough to be frightening to almost any wizard he went after; Luccio (pre-swap) even stronger; and McCoy *MUCH* stronger than that.
Langtry & McCoy were (roughly) peers. They fought one another in their youth (more than once, I bet).
I (strongly) suspect that Langtry isn't as heavy a hitter as McCoy, but is more versatile: more broadly powerful, even if he doesn't punch quite as hard. Wards, mind-magic, and I suspect at least one Elemental form.
Rashid would win vs. either of them, I think, because of his foreknowledge & probably other stuff not yet seen.
WoJ says, "Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful."
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g33k - I agree, you basically summed up my thoughts on Eb and Langtry. But as for Rashid...I am not sure. I believe that quote was saying he is dangerous in the same way Harry is as Warden of Demonreach i.e. because they both could unleash Hell on Earth. In saying that, Rashid is the oldest Wizard on the White Council (possibly the world) and between his prescience and knowledge (particularly of the forbidden kind from beyond the Outer Gates - hinted at as the same dark magic as the ley-line coming from Demonreach among other things) I am sure he is very dangerous. He is quite possibly on the same level as Merlin (at least defensively - both he and Langtry stopped that army of Outsiders). I think that pretty much no Wizard would take him on head-to-head unless they had no other options. What I think Jim may have meant by "most dangerous...not the same as most powerful" is that he doesn't wield the same level of political power internally as the others (as he stays mostly out of it).
Bad Alias - Thank you, we clearly have read much of the same stuff. Yeah that was my conclusion. Good for theory crafting, not necessarily gospel.
Snark Knight - Well, I find your theory about the inclusion of Flamethrowers to defeat Kemmler highly intriguing. However I would remind you that upon Harry's death his spirit awoke/appeared "on the tracks" in the Not-Chicago train station. I don't believe his spirit immediately exited his body into ethereal plane (I am using some D&D terms here for simplicity). It seemed like he entered some plane of the Never-never between the ethereal and the "Here After". So I am not sure that either theory holds up entirely.
Also - I wasn't saying He Who Walks Behind worked for Justin. Indeed, GS seems to imply the opposite was true if anything. I was merely saying they were associates.
Kbrizzle -
I don't know that by attending Bianca's party Cowl was acting openly. But it's hard to say without further information. Mmm, perhaps I misremember but I believe there is a reference that Justin was there. At any rate he was connected to it all. The only connection Justin had to the vampire courts that I know of was with that aforementioned group. Which isn't to say he didn't have others. Eb is the most powerful in duels, and maybe has the most defeats to his name. Doesn't make him the strongest in terms of raw power (although I suspect he is close).
As for Cowl's spellwork and tactics...let me put it another way. Harry has often said any Senior Council wizard could take him apart. Were they to take Dresden on (even with the Alphas as support) I imagine they would still have ripped him apart (especially all the way back in Dead Beat). LtW, Rashid, Langtry or Eb would have killed Harry and his wolves before he got started. Ancient Mai would hardly fight in that way (she would use cats paws) but even so if she wanted to fight I imagine her enchantments and enchanted objects would be far beyond Harry.
Cowl on the other hand ran at the first sign of trouble and allowed Harry to flip a car on him. He is strong and competent, yes. But that isn't the same as being SC level.
Cowl's plan was insane. Probably because he is well on the way. Dark magic twists the mind. But so does regular old life. Who knows what's the main cause? The result is that he believes his plan and is at least as committed as Nicodemus to his personal cause. Or Lucifer.
It could have been Justin took advantage of a bad situation. But if it was all planned the advantages are much the same. He gains anonymity and an instant alibi for everything (being dead). He might have also gained insight and knowledge and advantages that only come from playing in the shadows on the borders of life (much like what several beings have hinted at Harry has). And finally - the lesson Lea talked about (how it is very hard to make a young wizard use violence as the problem solver and believe it is right). Perhaps others as well but time will tell.
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So do you also think Simon is the most likely candidate for Cowl?
I'd give about 70% odds on it, yeah. Slightly lower odds on Elaine as Kumori, but possibly some sort of secondary personality that's not active most of the time.
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Before using DB to judge Cowl's strength, remember that the all the necromancers were using mostly physical attacks on one another because they were conserving or had expended their magical tanks. That could be the reason Cowl didn't seem as strong as we would expect if he is secretly a member of the Senior Council.
Jim has said that Rashid is the most dangerous wizard, and I think he said the Merlin is the most powerful. Harry definitely has. If Eb is the most anything, it's probably strongest. As in he's got the biggest firehouse as Harry puts it. The Merlin would have to have enough skill or knowledge to outclass Eb to make him more powerful. In that little snippet from PT, Harry said that Eb was the most feared wizard.
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I agree with @ Bad Alias that Cowl retreating from Harry & the Alphas shouldn’t be looked at as Cowl being a wuss per se - I imagine that he wanted to save his strength for what he thought of as his real threats - Grevane & Corpsetaker.
I also don’t think Eb is the most powerful mortal wizard alive either, although he likely has the most combat experience.
@Yuillegan
I mean Cowl was at a party in a fairly noticeable role, so much so that Harry recognized him despite never having interacted with him before. There were also likely members from every Signatory present at Bianca’s ball so it was a fairly high profile event.
I don’t recall any textual evidence of Justin having attended Maggie & Raith Sr’s dinner, the closest thing I can think of is when Eb tells Harry that Justin was an associate of his mother.
I still can’t think of many advantages Justin has by playing dead - the disadvantages outweigh the gains from what I can tell
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I think Cowl is someone who is actually alive at this moment. About any powerful council member is a better candidate than Simon or Justin.
Outsiders don’t work for you. You may be able to make them do your bidding in the short run because they need mortal wizards to get here but they work for themselves. They also make you go mad if you associate too closely with them and you start serving their purpose even if you think you are not. Cowl is on that route as was Peabody.
Playing dead is only useful if you are at least a suspect in some way and only really useful if someone is actively looking for you. You sacrifice all influence and contacts you actually have to make people stop looking for you. Simon and Justin had no reason to hide and the way they died is not one they would choose when faking dead. Fire destroys everything and the dead curse most likely uses up valuable energy you need to return.
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Before using DB to judge Cowl's strength, remember that the all the necromancers were using mostly physical attacks on one another because they were conserving or had expended their magical tanks. That could be the reason Cowl didn't seem as strong as we would expect if he is secretly a member of the Senior Council.
Jim has said that Rashid is the most dangerous wizard, and I think he said the Merlin is the most powerful. Harry definitely has. If Eb is the most anything, it's probably strongest. As in he's got the biggest firehouse as Harry puts it. The Merlin would have to have enough skill or knowledge to outclass Eb to make him more powerful. In that little snippet from PT, Harry said that Eb was the most feared wizard.
That was for duels with each other. Cowl had zero issue attacking Harry with magic. Cowl also felt no need to practice his swordplay or show off his necromancy. As far as I am aware Cowl didn't attack them and they didn't attack him. They might even have been scared of him - Corpsetaker certainly respected his powers, and Corpsetaker is no slouch. But even if they were not that wasn't really the reason they avoided attacking. They didn't attack with magic as it was hypothesised by Harry they would need to use all their concentration to control their undead. Which doesn't make a lot of sense because the drummer does that bit, and the magic is expended into the construct as a single act (not a continous flow, as far as I am aware). Cowl was likely saving his power to ruin the city etc, and probably didn't choose a throwdown so that he didn't cop an injury that would have ruined his chances at completing the Darkhallow. But in saying that, I doubt it would have cost much energy for a Senior Council-level wizard to destroy Harry and still do everything. If you imagine Cowl is Eb (hypothetically - and I don't for a second think he is), he would have blown through Dresden easily. And then proabably the other two.
The other thing to consider is that neither Corpsetaker nor Grevane are mentioned to be Senior Council-level. Despite their advanced age and suite of powers, Harry doesn't consider them in the same league. Terrifying and mad, yes. But not on the same level. If Cowl was...don't you think he would have dealt with them sooner? I have no issue believing if Cowl was Eb he would have slaughtered them. Same with most of the others. Hell, I think Luccio quite possibly would have beaten them if she hadn't had her mind invaded. Both Grevane and Corpsetaker seem to be closer to Morgan and Luccio in power levels. Which makes sense, as Grevane is only slightly older than Luccio. Harder to know with the Corpsetaker (although I would say a bit younger - but that's just a hunch).
I mostly agree with what you're saying about Langtry, Rashid and Eb. As Jim has stated before - power isn't a straight line thing. In terms of who would win a slugfest though...I think the money is mostly on Eb. Eb can break the rules and has no magical or wizard-law consequences, and he probably has the most fight titles under his belt. Most dangerous to life on Earth is most assuredly Rashid. He is also probably like Marcone, Kincaid, Uriel, Vadderung or Mab in that he prefers to use knowledge and leverage with zero ego to take down his foes rather than straight-up grudge matches. And he can see a lot more of the future than probably any other wizard. Langtry likely has the biggest tank of magic, perhaps the most general magical knowledge and refined skills (he has the strongest wards apparently) and certainly is the most politcally and likely economically powerful wizard in the world - any one of which would make him a hell of an opponent. Worth mentioning also that Langtry managed to stop a Mistfiend spreading with pure will while simultaneously coordinating a room full of wizards and creating an effective battle plan and evacuation plan (and pursuit plan of Peabody) in a few miliseconds. Langtry is the Merlin for a reason. Who would beat who would depend on so many different factors it's almost impossible to guess though.
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I think Cowl is someone who is actually alive at this moment. About any powerful council member is a better candidate than Simon or Justin.
I don't know if that's a fair guess. Why do you think an active "alive" member is a better candidate than a dead one?
Outsiders don’t work for you. You may be able to make them do your bidding in the short run because they need mortal wizards to get here but they work for themselves. They also make you go mad if you associate too closely with them and you start serving their purpose even if you think you are not. Cowl is on that route as was Peabody.
Well, we don't know that. But you're probably right. We just haven't seen enough of them to really make any real assumptions. The one thing they do apart from try and kill everything is recruit. Both Before and Behind have tried to recruit Harry. I suspect Behind recruited Justin. The fact they want "new talent" is interesting. Now, why do you think they make an individual go mad who works with them? Nemesis does seem to make people act insanely, but there is always a reason. A goal to be accomplished. Very little that we saw from Peabody suggested that he was mad. Even if you say that the idea of working with beings that want to destroy reality is mad, it doesn't necessarily mean a person who works with them is having a psychotic break. I am not sure what you mean by Cowl "being on that route". By you're argument (unless I misdunderstand you), Cowl either is mad just for working with them (which he assuredly has been for many years now) or he was already mad from some contact with them in the past. The Cowl we met seemed very sane - the fact he could question his own sanity is an indication of that. He might be a megolomaniac or a zealot or perhaps even a nihilist. But I don't think he is crazy, and I haven't seen any indication he heading that way.
Playing dead is only useful if you are at least a suspect in some way and only really useful if someone is actively looking for you. You sacrifice all influence and contacts you actually have to make people stop looking for you. Simon and Justin had no reason to hide and the way they died is not one they would choose when faking dead. Fire destroys everything and the dead curse most likely uses up valuable energy you need to return.
Pure conjecture. You don't know that Death Curses use all the energy you need to come back via Necromancy. From what we saw of the Ethereal Plane, Harry's magic was mostly based on memories. Even if you were right, that would be even better cover than being dead. They would have an even tighter alibi if the arrogant White Council believed it was impossible. We have no idea of the magical mechanics of returning from death to life. And as I explained earlier - it isn't clear fire has any bearing on that. Harry didn't travel physically from the physical spot his body was in. His spirit was always in the spirit world. It was anchored to his body, sure. But he "awoke" on the tracks in the train station. Which wasn't necessarily the Ethereal Plane...it seemed to be some demesne or domain between the Ethereal Plan proper and the "Here After". Not to mention that if fire burned both spirit and body all the time...wouldn't all those who are burned/killed by flame have burned spirits? Yet of course they do not - not at least until the pass into the Beyond. Fire disperses magic and does have an effect on unprotected spirits, true. But the action of "leaving the body" or becoming untethered to it likely has little to do with any of that. As evidenced by all those spirits that pass beyond instead of being crisped.
As for why someone would fake their death.
1) We don't know that someone wasn't about to expose them. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Council looks internally all the time. Harry is some evidence of that, but so is Morgan, Simon, Justin and Margaret Le Fay. Hell, Kemmler probably was White Council once himself! The Council routinely looks into the activities of it's members. Both openly and in secret.
2) If Justin and Simon were being investigated (and Simon was several times - read the paranet papers), they would need to cover their tracks and if they couldn't perhaps they needed to disappear - that's a reason right there. They would hardly be the first. Even if the White Council wasn't investigating them who is to say that other beings and organisations were not?
3) If they weren't being investigated at all they still may have chosen to disappear in order to escape any potential scrutiny and perhaps act without their old restraints. Remember, some wizards also monitor future crimes (very Minority Report) and so perhaps they wished to avoid that also.
4) There may have been benefits from crossing over and coming back that we are not aware of (that are hinted at by Vadderung and Rashid etc). Perhaps there are other unknown benefits as well.
I agree with @ Bad Alias that Cowl retreating from Harry & the Alphas shouldn’t be looked at as Cowl being a wuss per se - I imagine that he wanted to save his strength for what he thought of as his real threats - Grevane & Corpsetaker.
I also don’t think Eb is the most powerful mortal wizard alive either, although he likely has the most combat experience.
@Yuillegan
I mean Cowl was at a party in a fairly noticeable role, so much so that Harry recognized him despite never having interacted with him before. There were also likely members from every Signatory present at Bianca’s ball so it was a fairly high profile event.
I don’t recall any textual evidence of Justin having attended Maggie & Raith Sr’s dinner, the closest thing I can think of is when Eb tells Harry that Justin was an associate of his mother.
I still can’t think of many advantages Justin has by playing dead - the disadvantages outweigh the gains from what I can tell
Hmm yeah I can't find the text either right now. I think it might be in a WOJ or an interview. I'll keep looking.
It was a high profile event, but he was hardly recognisable other than a cloaked figure (of which there were two). They also acted as attendants. I doubt most people who didn't know who they were even noticed them...Harry noticed them because that is part of who he is. A detective. Harry remembered that he had seen two cloaked figures at Bianca's ball and made a guess it was them. It could well have been wrong.
See my reasons above about advatages and disadvantages.
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I don't know if that's a fair guess. Why do you think an active "alive" member is a better candidate than a dead one?
The only reason to wear a mask is to protect an identity. A living, active or at least potentially active identity. Harry thought they were council and they were certainly powerful and knowledgeable enough to be so. The council is also the most logical source of powerful warlocks.
Well, we don't know that. But you're probably right. We just haven't seen enough of them to really make any real assumptions. The one thing they do apart from try and kill everything is recruit. Both Before and Behind have tried to recruit Harry. I suspect Behind recruited Justin. The fact they want "new talent" is interesting. Now, why do you think they make an individual go mad who works with them? Nemesis does seem to make people act insanely, but there is always a reason. A goal to be accomplished. Very little that we saw from Peabody suggested that he was mad. Even if you say that the idea of working with beings that want to destroy reality is mad, it doesn't necessarily mean a person who works with them is having a psychotic break. I am not sure what you mean by Cowl "being on that route". By you're argument (unless I misdunderstand you), Cowl either is mad just for working with them (which he assuredly has been for many years now) or he was already mad from some contact with them in the past. The Cowl we met seemed very sane - the fact he could question his own sanity is an indication of that. He might be a megolomaniac or a zealot or perhaps even a nihilist. But I don't think he is crazy, and I haven't seen any indication he heading that way.
Pure conjecture. You don't know that Death Curses use all the energy you need to come back via Necromancy.
There seems a strong connection between the spiritual power of a wizard and his spirit. We also have not seen a death curse from anyone who returned or tried to return from dead. Kemmlers dead curse would have been devastating.
From what we saw of the Ethereal Plane, Harry's magic was mostly based on memories. Even if you were right, that would be even better cover than being dead.
The best alibi is actually a true one? The problem is that being dead actually reduces your options to act in the living world dramatically.
They would have an even tighter alibi if the arrogant White Council believed it was impossible. We have no idea of the magical mechanics of returning from death to life.
Actually we do. Ghost story shows us how corpstaker was trying to return, Lea tells us actually how, and it probably was how Kemper managed it. She was his pupil after all.
Find a body. Get the original owner out of it and take over. Harry had his own body to return to but for most dead that is not an option, too damaged.
And as I explained earlier - it isn't clear fire has any bearing on that. Harry didn't travel physically from the physical spot his body was in. His spirit was always in the spirit world. It was anchored to his body, sure. But he "awoke" on the tracks in the train station. Which wasn't necessarily the Ethereal Plane...it seemed to be some demesne or domain between the Ethereal Plan proper and the "Here After". Not to mention that if fire burned both spirit and body all the time...wouldn't all those who are burned/killed by flame have burned spirits?
When Harry had used up all his power at the end of ghost story and morty could not see him anymore he still had his soul. That is enough to go om but not enough to do anything meaningful in the spirit world.
Yet of course they do not - not at least until the pass into the Beyond. Fire disperses magic and does have an effect on unprotected spirits, true. But the action of "leaving the body" or becoming untethered to it likely has little to do with any of that. As evidenced by all those spirits that pass beyond instead of being crisped.
Their soul passes beyond. That is different from their spirit.
As for why someone would fake their death.
1) We don't know that someone wasn't about to expose them. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Council looks internally all the time. Harry is some evidence of that, but so is Morgan, Simon, Justin and Margaret Le Fay. Hell, Kemmler probably was White Council once himself! The Council routinely looks into the activities of it's members. Both openly and in secret.
2) If Justin and Simon were being investigated (and Simon was several times - read the paranet papers), they would need to cover their tracks and if they couldn't perhaps they needed to disappear - that's a reason right there. They would hardly be the first. Even if the White Council wasn't investigating them who is to say that other beings and organisations were not?
3) If they weren't being investigated at all they still may have chosen to disappear in order to escape any potential scrutiny and perhaps act without their old restraints. Remember, some wizards also monitor future crimes (very Minority Report) and so perhaps they wished to avoid that also.
4) There may have been benefits from crossing over and coming back that we are not aware of (that are hinted at by Vadderung and Rashid etc). Perhaps there are other unknown benefits as well.
There probably are but enough to risk it? You can try to return but it is difficult and tedious and success is far from guaranteed. I think we can safely assume that those few who do return from the dead did not arrange their own dead.
Hmm yeah I can't find the text either right now. I think it might be in a WOJ or an interview. I'll keep looking.
It was a high profile event, but he was hardly recognisable other than a cloaked figure (of which there were two). They also acted as attendants. I doubt most people who didn't know who they were even noticed them...Harry noticed them because that is part of who he is. A detective. Harry remembered that he had seen two cloaked figures at Bianca's ball and made a guess it was them. It could well have been wrong.
See my reasons above about advatages and disadvantages.
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The only reason to wear a mask is to protect an identity. A living, active or at least potentially active identity. Harry thought they were council and they were certainly powerful and knowledgeable enough to be so. The council is also the most logical source of powerful warlocks.
An identity is an identity, alive or dead. Kemmler is an identity and he is supposedly dead. So is Hitler. The status of their state of being isn't relevant. Simon was Council. Elaine is strong enough to be Council, but decieved the tests. And so on. Harry was blindly assuming that all the powerful wizards in the world were accounted for and on the White Council. Won't his face be red if he found out about powerful wizards that were not on the Council. Like Grevane and Corpsetaker. So logically, the Council is only potentially a source of powerful warlocks. There may well be others.
There seems a strong connection between the spiritual power of a wizard and his spirit. We also have not seen a death curse from anyone who returned or tried to return from dead. Kemmlers dead curse would have been devastating.
If Kemmler used a death curse. What's to say he didn't the first few times he was "killed"? And as one keen eyed fan pointed out, the Tsar Bomba (the most powerful man made nuclear warhead) exploded on Halloween, 1961. The same date Kemmler died. Which Jim acknowledged without agreeing with. Some guess that the bomb was dropped on him to kill him (or perhaps whatever he was trying to summon). Some guess that he completed the Darkhallow but was still mortal and the bomb was there to kill him. Some guess that there in fact was no bomb and that it was the cover story for Kemmler's immense Death Curse. Time will tell on that story.
But you are speculating. It isn't a fact that Death Curses use up the energy required to come back. Jim hasn't EVER said that. So don't present such statements as fact.
The best alibi is actually a true one? The problem is that being dead actually reduces your options to act in the living world dramatically.
Yes of course. For example, in a mundane murder mystery the least likely person to have been the murderer was the person who was killed prior to the events. When it is discovered they haven't in fact died, everyone gasps and says "It couldn't be! That's impossible. You're dead!" or something along those lines. Same for Simon or whoever. Oldest trick in the book.
It only reduces your options to show your face. But if you are as disguised as Cowl is...I think it hardly matters.
Actually we do. Ghost story shows us how corpstaker was trying to return, Lea tells us actually how, and it probably was how Kemper managed it. She was his pupil after all. Find a body. Get the original owner out of it and take over. Harry had his own body to return to but for most dead that is not an option, too damaged.
We have Harry's perspective on a spell/ritual that he had little to no understanding of. He hasn't read how to do it, been told how to do it or even been taught how to do it. Lea tells us the basic components Corpsetaker will use. And of course that assumes that there is only one way to do it. Kemmler, Corpsetaker and Cowl are hardly the only people to do it. Although the Jury is out on Cowl. Harry didn't necessarily have the option to return to his body. Had Uriel not wanted Harry to roam free, upon Harry's "death" most likely he would have awoken to being Mab's knight and Demonreach's warden (and Bonea's father, but that's less a formal role). And how does one take over? Mind magic that Harry's has never been taught (and he is pretty bad at mind magic altogether).
When Harry had used up all his power at the end of ghost story and morty could not see him anymore he still had his soul. That is enough to go om but not enough to do anything meaningful in the spirit world.
That isn't necessarily true. Quite likely he would have diminished beyond that had Uriel not intervened. He also still had spirit left.
Their soul passes beyond. That is different from their spirit.
I am not going to get into another long debate on this (it happened in another thread somewhere) but I will say that again is pure conjecture. Soul and spirit have been used semi-interchangably in the books and in WOJ. What you just said isn't fact or gospel. Unless you have some proof somewhere that you can share?
There probably are but enough to risk it? You can try to return but it is difficult and tedious and success is far from guaranteed. I think we can safely assume that those few who do return from the dead did not arrange their own dead.
In point of fact, Harry himself arranged his own death. He might have been nudged but he did arrange it. It's not such a strange thing. People fake their deaths all the time. There are often strong financial incentives (either to escape debts or claim insurance), but also to escape convictions of crime, and probably other undesirable situations. The fact that Kemmler returned several times, and probably wasn't the first necromancer to do so suggests it isn't so strange. Corpsetaker may well have returned before, and it seems likely Cowl did at least once (if not more than once). I am not so sure that Grevane knew how to as we never saw him attempt it, but that doesn't mean he won't show up.
Not to mention those that don't actually die but are just percieved to die. The most common form of pseudocide (faking ones own death) is drowning as it leaves a plausible explanation for why there is no body.
On that, water grounds out magic and spirits can't handle it. Harry "died" in water. If the elements were such barriers wouldn't Harry have not been able to go out?
The problem is that there is the physical plane (earth) and the spiritual plane (the never-never). That's all we have so far. It seems reasonable that there is another layer to reality that normally Harry and other "alive" mortals cannot percieve even in the Never-never but permeates both Never-never and mortal physical plane. Let's call it the Ethereal plane. Each of these layers coexist on top of the other. So Harry's body anchors his soul. But his soul (and/or spirit) where never in the physical plane. The occupied the corosponding location in the Ethereal plane. This is both in and outside the Never-never. That much is clear from the fact that you could open a Way somewhere and not be in the Ethereal plane but be in a corrospinding Never-never location (like the FBI headquaters and the demnese of the Erlking). But over and through the FBI headquaters would still be that other part of reality, the Ethereal plane. GS makes this all pretty clear. It probably helps to have played some D&D or something. But each layer of reality both is on top of another layer and through that layer (yet unable to touch). An interesting example (although a bit different) was the show Fringe and there use of quatum mechanics. They both do AND don't occupy the same space, just in corrosponding universes.
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... On that, water grounds out magic and spirits can't handle it. Harry "died" in water. If the elements were such barriers wouldn't Harry have not been able to go out? ...
Except Mab intervened, and IIRC her magic isn't particularly affected by water. Plenty of waterfae, after all!
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That isn't necessarily true. Quite likely he would have diminished beyond that had Uriel not intervened. He also still had spirit left.
I am not going to get into another long debate on this (it happened in another thread somewhere) but I will say that again is pure conjecture. Soul and spirit have been used semi-interchangably in the books and in WOJ. What you just said isn't fact or gospel. Unless you have some proof somewhere that you can share?
Bob and Uriel make a clear distinction:
Bob in Ghost Story:
“It’s just a theory,” he said, “because this isn’t my bag. But look. There’s flesh and there’s spirit, right?”
“Yeah,” I said.
“Mortals have both, right there together, along with the soul.”
“I thought it was the same thing. Soul, spirit.”
“Um,” Bob said. “Complicated. Think of your spirit-self as a seed. Your soul is the earth it grows in. You need both when you die. The way I’ve heard it . . . they sort of blend together to become something new. It’s a caterpillar-butterfly thing.”
People, including Harry, confuse the stuff and are ignorant but there is a clear distinction between spirit and soul though they are also connected.
Uriel makes the same distinction at the end of ghost story:
I folded my arms. “What if I dig the ghost routine?”
“You don’t,” Uriel replied. “But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated. You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones. Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them—but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it.”
Harry's soul is fine, better even, but his spirit is now weak. That is the same spiritual essence corpstaker needs to do anything in the spirit world.
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g33k - The point I was making is that these elements only affect some things, not others. Mab's intervention saved Harry's physical body. But how did Harry's soul end up in Chicago-Between? Teleportation? Did an Angel of Death carry it? The point is that we are thinking in physical, 3 dimensional terms whereas in the realms of thought, memory and the abstract it probably is irrelevant. Time, distance and space matter a lot less there. So things like Fire and Water are only significant to shades in the Ethereal Plane.
Arjan - As I said, this has been argued before in my previous thread about Souls and Ghosts. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53217.0.html
There are many, many instances in-text of characters using both spirit and soul interchangeably. Bob is also a sometimes unreliable talking head. His understanding, like just about every characters, is limited by his very nature and the amount of knowledge he has. I suspect Evil Bob has more knowledge than regular Bob, yet also would still be limited by his nature.
Lea uses spirit and soul interchangeably. You even quoted it in that thread. “With significant capability,” Lea replied, stressing the phrase. “When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
At the time you were arguing that Corpsetaker was a soul. Yet by your own previous argument above souls and spirits are different.
I am not going to derail this thread further with a longer discussion about it - if you want to debate it further I have necro'd the old thread and we can discuss it there. It got rather out of hand last time so I would prefer it didn't here.
Back to the original discussion -
Something that has occurred to me is the age of the Heirs of Kemmler.
Grevane seems to be a little older than Luccio (so both are 120+) and I would say Corpsetaker is slightly younger as He/She as Grevane was the first apprentice of Kemmler. Corpsetaker just also seems to be a bit more petulant (which is weird to say about someone who might very well be in there 100s). Cowl might be the youngest OR the oldest. He seems slightly apart from the other two.
If Cowl is older, that makes it significantly more likely he is Simon. Cowl seems to view Kemmler less as a master and more as a peer. Which means they might both be closer in age and perhaps that Cowl was already a learned wizard when he met Kemmler. Like Simon. So perhaps Simon came into contact with Kemmler later in life and decided to become his newest (and perhaps last) apprentice. Perhaps Simon already knew some Necromancy and decided to further his knowledge by going to the expert.
If Cowl is youngest though...it makes it more likely he is Justin. Justin is still old enough (being close to Maggie and Morgan's age I believe) to have met and studied under Kemmler. He was old enough to be on the team that took him down (it was 1961, if he is about Margaret Le Fay's age he would have been in his 160s I believe) It also would be why he is apart from the others as he would have begun his apprenticeship to Kemmler much later than the others.
I think that will help in ascertaining the identity of Cowl.
Also - Margaret La Fay had Harry when she was roughly 180 (unless I am much mistaken). Yet in the one or two descriptions we have of her she is young-ish and beautiful. Not old and matronly like Luccio when we meet her (who is roughly the same age as Margaret La Fey. My only theory is her constant travel through the Nevernever allowed her to unnaturally extend her life (like the Gatekeeper, perhaps?)
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Luccio was born in 1800 according to the timeline as maintained on Jim's site. Again according to the timeline Maggie is an equivilant age. Also according to the timeline the Wardens had already put the smack on Kemmler once in the early 1800's which would seem to make him a contemporary of Eb, maybe. Or else he was a savant. Interesting enough the timeline has Fist Full of Warlocks in 1883 where Luccio visits Dodge City and meets Wyatt Earp. Which would have been a neat trick, since Earp left in 1879 according to the Wikipedia. Also oddly enough Luccio considers killing four warlocks with fire magic, but only worries about the masquerade. This somewhat surprised me as I listened to it, anybody with a text version care to correct me?
If Michael was born in 1945 as the timeline suggests and Harry is 20 years younger that has him born in 1965 which would make Maggie about 165.
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I believe Wikipedia also doesn't mention his encounter with Necromancers...not everything is left in the history books ;D
I am of course just being cute. Jim probably should have researched it better...but I am happy for Wyatt Earp to have briefly come back. Or perhaps in the Dresdenverse he didn't leave until after 1883. It is a different timeline to us after all, despite the similarities.
More concerning is Luccio apparently prepared to break the first law, as you point out. The fact that it would shatter this first law just to kill 3 warlocks (and potentially kill the innocent bystanders around) is both strange and worrying. In fact, she would have killed Grevane with magic had he not blocked it. These inconsistencies are harder to rectify. Because as we know - the wardens never aim to kill warlocks with magic. In fact no wizard should attempt to kill at all, according the Laws. They always should attempt to use mundane means. Unless of course, they don't always do that (and cover it up). But that would contradict the squeaky clean image! We also know that the self-defence argument is very tenuous and takes a lot of convincing protect the wizard. This is because the taint may still exist despite the reasons, so killing no matter what the reason may still corrupt the wizard.
Jim needs to clear this up. I hope someone asks him at the next AMA or con (whatever the format).
Also whilst I don't believe that the other necromancers/Thule Society members that were with Grevane were Corpsetaker and Cowl, just because those two warlocks died doesn't mean they weren't resurrected.
I always took Harry to be around 21 as of Storm Front. I believe there is a statement around it. Which puts his birth in the 70s. But regardless...Maggie was very old. And yet didn't look it, and was still able to have a child. Michael's bday is also really strange. It puts him at 75 currently, unless the books are a few years behind now. At best he is around 70 as of Skin Game. Not impossible...but not how the book reads. He seems to be a man in his late 50s to early 60s at the most.
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Sidenote on the Death thing, severa characters have referenced how Harry would/has become more powerful or atleast wider notoriety because of his Death. Other than crazy necromancers. Goes as far back as Lash
"...your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time. Truth. Love."
"Harry: "Enlighten Me"
"To do so you would have to release your hold on mortality"
Harry: "I'd have to die?"
Lash: "Again you have only a partial understanding. But in the interesst of expediency yes, You would ceasee living"
But more significantly Vadderung
"Nothing that significant just happens"
"Wizard... you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It has opened doors and paths you do not yet know exist, and attract the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken not of your insignificance"
...
"Meaning now more than ever you are a fulcrum. Meaning your life is about to become very, very interesting."
As for Cowls identity, my moneys still on Simon Pietrovich with Justin being a runner up..
First said being who takes note of Harry post death and rebirth that I can think of is Hades. a God of Death charged with keeping souls in the underworld, who colluded and organised with Mab and Uriel atleast in part just so he could have a short conversation with Dresden.
As for Cowl my moneys on Simon Pietrovich, with Justin being a runner up. I'd consider Cristos being an option but Ebenezar considers him a fool, and Cowls not a fool, insane maybe but no fool.
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Indeed. I had forgotten the Lash comment. But many characters have hinted that dying and coming back would allow Dresden to gain enlightenment and power, and a measure of notice.
Vadderung himself has died and come back (if he is indeed Odin). Vadderung took notice before Dresden died...but I also think in someways he knew what would happen.
Dresden has always commanded high-level interest. So I wonder what beings will notice him now that didn't before, considering his level of interest was already quite high. HWWBh, Lea, Mab, the Mothers, Titania, Uriel, Vadderung, Ferrovax have taken interest. With the exception of Lea, all are very high level (some are even cosmic-level). And I would be surprised if it was only them. I am sure there are others who haven't yet been on screen.
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Read that quotation from Lash very carefully, mortality has multiple meanings.
Cristos may or may not be a fool, but a fools demeanor can hide many things.
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IIRC Harry is supposed to be 26 at the time of Stormfront in 2000, which would put his year of birth as 1974, 13 years after Kemmler’s last stand.
Separately, Bob notes in Dead Beat that there are still 4-5 of Kemmler’s former disciples running around at the time.
I think Cowl views himself as a some time student of Kemmler’s but not as his disciple/ a Kemmlerite. Grevane, Corpsetaker & Cowl all knew each other back in the day & respect each other’s abilities, in fact each of them can be viewed as masters of different fields of necromancy: Grevane is a zombie expert, Corpsetaker is the body-switching expert & Cowl is the magical theory expert.
An interesting question however is that if Cowl is a former student of Kemmler’s & the most likely candidates for Cowl’s identity are Justin/ Simon (who were both on the White Council at the time), why didn't they warn Kemmler of the impending attack? We know the entire WC was involved in the attack & that Justin was a warden at the time...
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Read that quotation from Lash very carefully, mortality has multiple meanings.
Cristos may or may not be a fool, but a fools demeanor can hide many things.
True it could mean becoming or gaining immortality. Then again harry did learn a lot during Ghost Story. Souls, free will, his encounter with a walker, that both fae and angels can't act without a balancing act in return.
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I misquoted Michael's birth date, it was 45 BFS not 1945. :-[
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Morris - That makes more sense...but it still puts Michael as older than I would think. But maybe that's just me. I think the release on mortality could apply to more than just "death" in how we see it. It's really talking about the change of state from mortal to "something" which isn't necessarily immortal. I also read a reasonable theory about Nephilim and Harry that includes that quote. Basically, it's about losing that which makes you mortal rather than ceasing to exist (which is Harry's interpretation to a degree).
Kbrizzle - your date for Harry's bday is about right, to my mind. Also, are you saying that there are more necromancer apprentices? I must admit I always assumed that the extra bodies were either extra necromantic hotspots (one person could do multiple acts) or that they were the drummers. Perhaps they didin't warn Kemmler because as Cowl says, he was a madman. And they didn't want him around. Taking out the competition. Or perhaps they did and Kemmler actually is alive. Who knows?
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Also oddly enough Luccio considers killing four warlocks with fire magic, but only worries about the masquerade. This somewhat surprised me as I listened to it, anybody with a text version care to correct me?
If Michael was born in 1945 as the timeline suggests and Harry is 20 years younger that has him born in 1965 which would make Maggie about 165.
That's what if seemed like in the book to me as well.
For when everything takes place on our calendar, see the explanation for when the SF takes place at the bottom of the timeline page. The "best" guess is 1999. I see why Morris said 45, but I just think Michael's birth and the things taking place in the 50's are out of place on the timeline.
The fact that it would shatter this first law just to kill 3 warlocks (and potentially kill the innocent bystanders around) is both strange and worrying. In fact, she would have killed Grevane with magic had he not blocked it. These inconsistencies are harder to rectify. Because as we know - the wardens never aim to kill warlocks with magic. In fact no wizard should attempt to kill at all, according the Laws. They always should attempt to use mundane means. Unless of course, they don't always do that (and cover it up). But that would contradict the squeaky clean image! We also know that the self-defence argument is very tenuous and takes a lot of convincing protect the wizard. This is because the taint may still exist despite the reasons, so killing no matter what the reason may still corrupt the wizard.
Or maybe the 1st law isn't at all what we think it is. Maybe it's like "thou shall not kill" from the ten commandments. Which is a mistranslation of "thou shall not murder" or just the common confusion between murder and kill. Maybe it's like a lot of religious rules that say don't do x, but over the years people end up saying don't do x+1 (or maybe it should be x-1). Thou shall not murder is a much better rule anyway. I could make that work in text. I don't really buy the argument, but I don't think it can be dismissed out of hand either.
Vadderung himself has died and come back (if he is indeed Odin).
Vadderung. Definitely Odin, but also maybe not. :o. I love how tenuous even things we "know" are.
Morris - That makes more sense...but it still puts Michael as older than I would think. But maybe that's just me.
It's not just you. It always felt like Michael was 15 years older than Harry max, to me. But I can see him being 20 years older.
I'm kind of thinking that Cowl may have been a necromancer who was a begrudging ally of Kemmler and like all of Kemmler's allies, was subordinate to Kemmler. Cowl would have been a secret necromancer who maintained a separate persona who was in good standing with the White Council. I'll have to look back over the quote from DB Yuillegan pointed out to me in another thread to see if that theory sound.
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The Christmas Eve short story says Michael is a man in his fifties...so I guess he is at most only 10 years older than Harry. Which feels right from how Jim writes. But retcons a previous WOJ and perhaps text from the earlier Files.
I agree with your interpretation of the first law. We know that the Laws of Magic are inventions, not cosmic rules. But perhaps when Merlin said them in very old Welsh or whatever he meant murder, not just kill. You'd think the old Wizards might have studied some entymology but there you go. Happens to everyone. Language can't be shackled!
It is fun to realise that half the things that are fact (or more) might not actually be fact. But it makes it impossible to work out anything if everything is a lie.
Cowl is one of the most interesting characters. In some ways, it will be sad when his identity is revealed (if he is someone we know...there is apparently a WOJ that says we do).
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(if he is someone we know...there is apparently a WOJ that says we do).
Of course it's someone we know. It's more painful for Harry, and therefore more fun for Jim, if Cowl is somebody he (and by extension, the reader) knows.
Beyond that, I have no idea who Cowl is. ;D
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The Christmas Eve short story says Michael is a man in his fifties
Per the timeline, Michael was born about 43-45 years before SF. CE takes place 14 years after SF, but let's just call it 15 because it's Christmas Eve/Morning. That mean's Michael is about 58-60 years old. Harry is 40 in CE. That's 18-20 years difference. The timeline states that Michael is "almost twenty years older than Harry [GP 315]."
So Michael is either 58 or 59 in CE or Harry is just wrong about how old he Michael is. People get age wrong all the time. I once was asked by a waitress if I was 21. I responded "no, but I was ten years ago."
We know that the Laws of Magic are inventions, not cosmic rules.
I'd say they are the human (mis)understanding of actual cosmic rules.
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Well I think that the timeline, and Harry's previous statement in GP is wrong/retconned. It's a good workaround you have provided but tbh I think Jim has always had Michael as a middle aged guy (as a character build) which had become inconvenient to how long the story has dragged on. So I suspect he is sort of rewriting reality (if he even remembers exactly what he wrote in GP or said in some old interview years ago).
As a rule, I always go with the most recent info. The most recent age for Michael is a man in his fifties, so that's what I am going with.
Hmm not sure I agree. Luccio describes them as the best way of limiting power amongst wizards. Merlin set them up, with Vadderung's training (and likely influence). I wouldn't be surprised if Uriel and others were involved. So not sure they are cosmic limits as much as restraints to stop new demigods and monsters popping up.
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Well I think that the timeline, and Harry's previous statement in GP is wrong/retconned. It's a good workaround you have provided.
I don't think it's a workaround. CE says Michael is in his fifties. The timeline (based on what was said in GP) says he's in his fifties or maybe just turned 60. CE just narrows Michael's birth year by one year. Harry's previous statement isn't inconsistent with his later statement.
Some WoJ on the Laws of Magic:2009 Whisper radio interview @1:14:22
What kind of laws govern the use of magic in the world?
The White Council enforces Seven Laws of Magic. They are basically a list of “Thow Shalt Nots,” and their purpose is to enforce these laws and prevent wizards from using their abilities to abuse people. These are supposed to be laws that are restraining wizards from using their powers to do too much harm. And to enforce the laws they have a group of wizards who are known as Wardens, and the Wardens are sort of the White Council’s interior police. If you break one of the laws, it’s the Wardens who are the ones who drag you off for a trial and generally if you’re not killed resisting arrest, you’re killed pretty much after you show up for trial… Right to a speedy trial and an even speedier execution.
As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. :) There’s something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it’s going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there’s no sense in ruining the fun. :)
The Laws of Magic don’t necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as “magic” behaves.
The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don’t all come from people wearing grey cloaks.
And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.
Which exist.
I think it's both. The Council's Laws are used to limit wizard's ability to abuse people because Black Magic (i.e., the magic that corrupts) is the best way to accrue power. But if Black Magic wasn't a corrupting influence, I don't think the Council couldn't come together and ban what they believe to be Black Magic. I think they tried to get the 7 Laws as close to the real thing as they could.
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Eleven years later and it still isn't clear. However with the exception of Harry no wizard kills with Magic. The Black Staff uses a magical murder device that does the dirty work. Kind of like super dooper howitzer, like Harry's favorite pistol.
The Time Line wasn't created by Jim. Jim doesn't even know how many buildings Harry has burned. Much less how old Michael is. You probably know the text better than he does.
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... The Black Staff uses a magical murder device that does the dirty work ...
No; technically the Blackstaff (the person) uses his own magic and the Blackstaff (the magical murder device) absorbs the universe's metaphysical fallout, while the WC just has an exception in their laws.