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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: exartiem on April 09, 2020, 05:28:56 PM

Title: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: exartiem on April 09, 2020, 05:28:56 PM

I'm reading the part where Harry meets his 'other self' and I had a weird thought:

What if the other Harry is actually the evil Harry from the Mirror, Mirror universe contacting him mentally?  He could be trying to get our Harry to accept him in order to take him over, a la Corpsetaker.  Harry resists, which makes it necessary for evil Harry to come here physically.

Tries to swap minds first, then swaps bodies when that fails.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: 123Chikadee on April 09, 2020, 10:44:30 PM

Ooooh, that's cool. I'm not sure I'd go so far as evil but that's a solid idea.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: didymos on April 10, 2020, 12:43:50 AM

I don't think subconscious Harry is Mirror, Mirror Harry, but I'd bet they look alike.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Yuillegan on April 10, 2020, 03:44:48 AM

Creepy, and cool.

I'd bet chances are Harry from Mirror Mirror at least looks similar, if not exactly the same. He might even have an eye patch. Jim has said there will be goatees and eye patches (implying these are the bad guy versions)

Curiously, Vadderung has an eye patch and Hades has a goatee. Are we sure these are the good guys?

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: didymos on April 10, 2020, 04:02:18 AM

Quote from: Yuillegan on April 10, 2020, 03:44:48 AM

Curiously, Vadderung has an eye patch and Hades has a goatee. Are we sure these are the good guys?

Vadderung has to be missing an eye.  He's Odin. As to how good he is...they did used to sacrifice people to him. 

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: exartiem on April 10, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

Or, M-Harry is trying to darken our Harry.  To make him closer to M-Harry to make it easier to trade places later.

It could even start out as M-Harry trying to guide our Harry into avoiding the mistakes that HE made, but black magic, even with the purest intentions, is still black magic.  As Molly found out.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Mira on April 10, 2020, 01:42:50 PM

Quote from: exartiem on April 10, 2020, 12:22:09 PM

Or, M-Harry is trying to darken our Harry.  To make him closer to M-Harry to make it easier to trade places later.

It could even start out as M-Harry trying to guide our Harry into avoiding the mistakes that HE made, but black magic, even with the purest intentions, is still black magic.  As Molly found out.

   I don't think "alter-ego" Harry is evil per-say, he is a more forceful personality for sure.  He
doesn't think things through, he thinks more on the lines of selfishness, in other words, what is good
for Harry works for everyone in his view.  He is an important factor in Harry's decision process,  if you want to use the Star Trek model I am thinking there is a much better episode than "Mirror Mirror."   In "Mirror Mirror" there is a transporter accident and Kirk and company are thrown into a parallel universe where everyone except maybe Spock are the opposite of what we know them to be in their universe.  In the episode I am thinking of, "The Enemy Within,"  it is again a problem with the transporter because of a substance on the planet they are beaming up from.  Anyway, Captain Kirk is split into his two personality types,  the strong ruthless passionate Kirk, [very much like Harry's alter-ego] shortly after he beams up and no one notices, a second Kirk appears, this is the compassionate gentle Kirk, not unlike the Harry we know and love.   The first tries to rape his yeoman and is acting like a dictator, the second cannot make up his mind to do anything because he is afraid someone is going to be hurt.  And because he cannot make up his mind to use the defective transporter, Sulu is about to freeze to death on planet, while the other Kirk says screw him, they need to move on.  Kirk collapses if I remember correct and begins to die becauseboth sides of his personality are important to the making of the man and neither can survive without the other.   On that model Harry needs  both sides of his personality.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Bad Alias on April 10, 2020, 05:43:11 PM

Quote from: exartiem on April 09, 2020, 05:28:56 PM

What if the other Harry is actually the evil Harry from the Mirror, Mirror universe contacting him mentally?

I think that's unlikely because M-Harry doesn't exist until the end of Grave Peril. Additionally, it probably takes M-Harry a while to become evil.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Mira on April 10, 2020, 06:14:30 PM

Quote from: Bad Alias on April 10, 2020, 05:43:11 PM

I think that's unlikely because M-Harry doesn't exist until the end of Grave Peril. Additionally, it probably takes M-Harry a while to become evil.

    In my opinion, M-Harry isn't evil, he is just very hard assed and makes those kinds of assessments
  of things, which made him easy for Lasciel to talk to.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: 123Chikadee on April 11, 2020, 07:49:50 PM

@Bad Alias: Oh, right I forgot about that.
@Mira: Yeah, I don't see him as evil either. Though I'm not too sure that he gets an opportunity to meet Lasciel. But mainly that's more b/c I like the idea that he became more hard assed without any outside intervention, makes it more interesting that way.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: SoftManacles4MagiHackers on April 11, 2020, 08:46:18 PM

(click to show/hide)

I'm more interested in the similarities in ID harry and Thomas's demon. I think it was Odin or Uriel who said that the white court were scions, but I think because they both provide, or at least influence emotions, have a separate personality, and offer a perspective that harry and Thomas would be unable to see alone, provides unusual similarity. Moreover, Molly spoke to the ID when helping with the air spirits delivery. That could suggest a second entity, as unconscious people would not have any instincts, emotions, or otherwise to indicate the presence of an ID. Unconscious itself seems to mean no regular or subconscious action. I think if we work from Thomas's short story, and the WC are scions, a regular scion would have two entities in the same body. Bodies of mortals, subconscious similar to the original supernatural ancestor, and a unique personality to the main entity. This would lend to the theory that humans are scions of the white god, or that wizards get magic from supernatural ancestry. Disregarding the white court as scions, we know that harries subconscious is different, because molly could talk to it to deliver the spirit, but we saw multiple Mollys of all of her aspects in Ghost Story. ID even admits he has trouble with regular jobs of subconsciousness aspects.which could lead to the conclusion that Harry is different, and the main thing that makes harry different in major aspects in the series is because he is a starborn, so it could have something to do with that.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Mira on April 11, 2020, 10:27:12 PM

Quote from: SoftManacles4MagiHackers on April 11, 2020, 08:46:18 PM

(click to show/hide)

I'm more interested in the similarities in ID harry and Thomas's demon. I think it was Odin or Uriel who said that the white court were scions, but I think because they both provide, or at least influence emotions, have a separate personality, and offer a perspective that harry and Thomas would be unable to see alone, provides unusual similarity. Moreover, Molly spoke to the ID when helping with the air spirits delivery. That could suggest a second entity, as unconscious people would not have any instincts, emotions, or otherwise to indicate the presence of an ID. Unconscious itself seems to mean no regular or subconscious action. I think if we work from Thomas's short story, and the WC are scions, a regular scion would have two entities in the same body. Bodies of mortals, subconscious similar to the original supernatural ancestor, and a unique personality to the main entity. This would lend to the theory that humans are scions of the white god, or that wizards get magic from supernatural ancestry. Disregarding the white court as scions, we know that harries subconscious is different, because molly could talk to it to deliver the spirit, but we saw multiple Mollys of all of her aspects in Ghost Story. ID even admits he has trouble with regular jobs of subconsciousness aspects.which could lead to the conclusion that Harry is different, and the main thing that makes harry different in major aspects in the series is because he is a starborn, so it could have something to do with that.

   I don't think so, simply because the Hunger demon doesn't seem to have a motive except to
eat and survive.  Where as Harry's alter ego does have an agenda of sorts, where Harry would like to have a relationship with Murphy, his alter ego is telling him to bang her and move on..

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: SoftManacles4MagiHackers on April 11, 2020, 10:33:28 PM

which could also be the result of what bred with mortals to create each species/scion. it could also be a starborn thing. or harry's ID origniated as a foreign entitry and the force of harrys personality changed it to have goals/motivations. you could also argue that thomas's demon does has goals, but used more emotional control to obtain them, without speaking directly but using urges.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: g33k on April 12, 2020, 01:45:52 AM

Quote from: SoftManacles4MagiHackers on April 11, 2020, 08:46:18 PM

(click to show/hide)

I'm more interested in the similarities in ID harry and Thomas's demon. I think it was Odin or Uriel who said that the white court were scions, but I think because they both provide, or at least influence emotions, have a separate personality, and offer a perspective that harry and Thomas would be unable to see alone, provides unusual similarity. Moreover, Molly spoke to the ID when helping with the air spirits delivery. That could suggest a second entity, as unconscious people would not have any instincts, emotions, or otherwise to indicate the presence of an ID. Unconscious itself seems to mean no regular or subconscious action. I think if we work from Thomas's short story, and the WC are scions, a regular scion would have two entities in the same body. Bodies of mortals, subconscious similar to the original supernatural ancestor, and a unique personality to the main entity. This would lend to the theory that humans are scions of the white god, or that wizards get magic from supernatural ancestry. Disregarding the white court as scions, we know that harries subconscious is different, because molly could talk to it to deliver the spirit, but we saw multiple Mollys of all of her aspects in Ghost Story. ID even admits he has trouble with regular jobs of subconsciousness aspects.which could lead to the conclusion that Harry is different, and the main thing that makes harry different in major aspects in the series is because he is a starborn, so it could have something to do with that.

Not sure why you've spoilerized ...?  This IS the  Spoilers  thread!

Anyhow...

I think you're recalling Uriel's remarks at the end of Ghost Story -- Thomas is a "scion" (offspring of mortal and immortal) as the son of Papa Raith (immortal) and Mama Maggie (mortal).

I don't know that we can generalize this to all Whamps-as-scions, though.  My sense is that both parents can be Whamps... but I admit I don't actually recall this as set in canon, either way.

It's also possible that all-Whamps-are-scions no matter the parentage, simply because their bodies are Human (q.v. interfertile with Humans) but their Demons are not.  There are both elements in the offspring; they are a child of both human and hunger-demon parentage, regardless of whether both (or only one) parents were Whamps.

===

As Molly was "delivering" Bonea, she spoke with id-Harry, yes; but note that sleep-walking and sleep-talking are both well-known phenomena, dreams and lucid-dreaming, etc etc etc.  A mind-mage of Molly's caliber can almost certainly have induced whatever state of mental awareness she needed Harry to be in... I don't see any evidence that id-Harry is actually a separate/external individual.

Indeed, the fact that id-Harry wears a snowflake (when Harry-Prime becomes WK) strongly indicates that they are fundamentally the same being.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: Snark Knight on April 12, 2020, 02:34:12 AM

Quote from: Bad Alias on April 10, 2020, 05:43:11 PM

I think that's unlikely because M-Harry doesn't exist until the end of Grave Peril. Additionally, it probably takes M-Harry a while to become evil.

Also Jim's pitch for MM wasn't that !Harry body-swaps into his multiverse counterparts. He pulls them to his timeline to die in his place when he's cornered and needs his adversaries to find a dead Harry Dresden and go home thinking Mission Accomplished. He only needs a physical copy for that; their spiritual status is irrelevant.

Title: Re: While re-reading Fool Moon
Post by: exartiem on April 12, 2020, 01:21:00 PM

Quote from: Bad Alias on April 10, 2020, 05:43:11 PM

I think that's unlikely because M-Harry doesn't exist until the end of Grave Peril. Additionally, it probably takes M-Harry a while to become evil.

What if M-Harry in Harry's mind is from some point in the future?  We can assume that Harry's universe and the Mirror-universe are concurrent, time-wise.  But what is it that CAUSES Harry to make the different decision that creates the split?  Do we just assume the Many-Worlds Theory that everything that can happen does?  Or did something trigger it?

There's no reason to assume that if M-Harry is a warlock and (in my theory) using black magic to invade Harry's mind, that he wouldn't also go back in time.  In for a penny, in for a pound.

M-Harry sends his mind back in time to his earlier self.  Puts thoughts into his own head to change something that M-Harry did (not go to Bianca's party, kill Susan in the basement, etc...).  This CREATES the divergent timeline.  M-Harry uses his connection to our Harry to swap and escape his own.