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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: spiritofair on February 04, 2020, 07:01:53 PM

Title: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: spiritofair on February 04, 2020, 07:01:53 PM
Holy Cow!!!

Talk about revelatory...  I don't even know where to begin.

I love how it's straightforward, blunt, and right to the point. Very Morgan.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Fox on February 04, 2020, 07:31:55 PM
I’ll admit, this definitely took me by surprise.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: narphoenix on February 04, 2020, 07:44:40 PM
I just made a long terrible noise for at least 10 seconds in a row. Holy. FUCK.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 04, 2020, 07:58:21 PM
Wow. We have a whole new question of "what's a Destroyer?" Morgan's capitalization did not seem idiosyncratic to me, which it could have been given his age. I take it to mean that a Destroyer is pretty close to a proper noun. Is it just a starborn? Something different?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mr. Death on February 04, 2020, 08:04:04 PM
Welp, this turns my view of Morgan completely on its head.

I'm guessing that a Starborn is just a thing you are; a Destroyer is what a Starborn could be if it goes bad, and there's something else a Starborn could be if it goes good.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 04, 2020, 08:18:21 PM
I thought the 'Adversary' Harry has been marked by was quite interesting.

Even more interesting that fugitive-LeFay somehow snared Inspector JavertDonald Morgan in her semi-legal quest for salvation.
Was all of the story so far a lie?
Was she a double-agent that fooled even the Blackstaff into thinking she had half-turned, when she was undercover for the most hard-bitten part of the Wardens?
Or was Morgan really far more forgiving than we ever held possible?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 04, 2020, 08:20:45 PM

Where is this story to be found?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 04, 2020, 08:27:28 PM
I don't think I've ever had so many questions over of such a short story.
(click to show/hide)
Also Avernite's questions. Such a revelation and so many questions.

@Mira: https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more (https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Maz on February 04, 2020, 08:31:42 PM
Absolutely awesome.
Adversary is capitalized.
Was Justin good enough to pull off that level of disappearance act from the council?
Morgan is aware of Nemesis.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: prince lotore on February 04, 2020, 09:00:01 PM
Here is the thing. We know that Jim used the words adversary and nemesis to set us off. The question is did Morgan know what he was referring to.  Up until his death he was yelling at Dresden that there was no black council even while he was being set up by it.  Its hard to believe that Morgan knew that there was a conspiracy against the council and could name the players and he wasn't taking actions against them. That sounds weird for him. Especially if he is name dropping for Anastasia. So he thinks the names will have significance to her.  If true it means that a lot of the secrets that harry has been keeping from his allies are not as secure as he thinks.  Though his regrets for how he treated Harry and why he wouldn't let on him is a revelation that makes him a much better character By far this is Jim's best short story
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: prince lotore on February 04, 2020, 09:05:45 PM
to further my option that Morgan isn't as clued in as it seams here is the definition for nemesis from google
noun
the inescapable agent of someone's or something's downfall.
"the balance beam was the team's nemesis, as two gymnasts fell from the apparatus"
a long-standing rival; an archenemy.
"will Harry Potter finally defeat his nemesis, Voldemort?"
Similar:
archenemy
arch-rival
enemy
rival
foe
adversary
opponent
antagonist
combatant
challenger
a downfall caused by an inescapable agent.
"one risks nemesis by uttering such words"
Similar:
downfall
undoing

The more I read it the more I think Jim is gas lighting us

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 04, 2020, 09:20:12 PM
Margaret was in contact with Morgan while she was pregnant and on the run.  Is that why she was at the Lincoln Monument? A safe meeting place? That or something like that would have to be true.

We already know that Harry is marked by He Who Walks Behind. The addict on Three Eye in Storm Front calls it out.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: spiritofair on February 04, 2020, 09:46:03 PM

The more I read it the more I think Jim is gas lighting us
I checked the calendar, and it's not April 1st... :-)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 04, 2020, 10:13:25 PM
... The more I read it the more I think Jim is gas lighting us

Adversary
Nemesis
Destroyer

Those 3 words, ONLY, are Capitalized in ways not following the rules of modern standard English.

There's an obsolete pattern of Capitalize-to-Emphasize (and I expect that era is when Morgan first learned to read and right)... but if that were what's at play, I'd expect  Some of the Other Terms  to also be treated that way.

I guess it's always possible that Jim is scattering a bucketfull of Red Herrings, instead of a trail of breadcrumbs.  But it's awfully heavy-handed, if so...
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 04, 2020, 10:22:42 PM
Almost literally what g33k said, but he posted after I typed and before I clicked post.
(click to show/hide)

Its hard to believe that Morgan knew that there was a conspiracy against the council and could name the players and he wasn't taking actions against them. ... a lot of the secrets that harry has been keeping from his allies are not as secure as he thinks.
Morgan knew the Council had been infiltrated. He was taking action. He didn't know who was behind it. "Until I am certain where to lay the blame for LaFortier’s death (his lack of knowledge), I will seek his assistance (action he's taking because of it)." He's keeping secrets from people who are extremely unlikely to have any idea about Nemesis. Butters might through Bob. Which might explain why he has been so suspicious of Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 05, 2020, 12:20:37 AM
This story blew my mind! And you know what I am thinking? Ivy knows what Morgan wrote. So, what if she is becoming wary of Dresden herself? Or, on the other hand, why if she decides to try to help in some subtle ways.

I found interesting the idea of Bad Alias about Elaine. Nothing so far indicates that, but it would be interesting.

I agree about the significant of capitalizations. Destroyer must be something but perhaps Morgan himself does not know it very well. What if a Destroyer is someone who is going to literally destroy the White Council, but if it is for a good cause and will replace it with something better? That would fit with some comments of the Gatekeeper to Dresden.

So many things to think...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Yuillegan on February 05, 2020, 12:23:05 AM
Main takeaways:

1. Donald Morgan and Maggie Le Fay knew each other - and had an association strong enough that Morgan would protect Harry.

2. Morgan was actually protecting and testing Harry for most of his life! Margaret made him promise, which means towards the end, whatever their previous relationship he trusted her enough to make that promise. And all his bullying of Harry was to ensure he wasn't the monster that clearly some thought he had the potential to be. More on that below.

3. Malcolm's death: this is the second or third hint that it was unnatural. My money is on DuMorne as he obviously had been building a plan for some time to get his enforcers, and I am sure he would have been well prepared to kill Malcolm to get Harry. And it wouldn't surprise me if he used mundane methods like Ricin poisoning in order to simulate natural causes. Although the possibility remains he did it with magic and covered it up...I can't remember where but I am reasonably certain Justin was an able mind-mage.

Also - the fact that Harry disappeared from everyone whilst under DuMorne is further evidence of a conspiracy. Magically, physically and bureaucratically covered up is just too clean, and I am sure Justin had help. Perhaps from Peabody, perhaps also from others (both in the Council and otherwise).

4. Morgan thought DuMorne was a bastard. Probably for what he did to Harry, but perhaps in the same vein as Cristos. They would have been colleagues as Wardens so one imagines DuMorne was pretty nasty, if Morgan (who could be quite the bastard also) thought he was. That says something right there.

5. I will break down this sentence as there is a bit to unpack.
Quote
From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.

Morgan knows about Nemesis. This isn't totally surprising as he was a top-level warden, and with power comes knowledge and Morgan was pretty powerful.

He doesn't actually theorize Harry to be infected - I suspect he wouldn't have even gone to him if he did, which says something else to me.

I think he IS implying Justin was infected. That would make sense with why Justin became what he was - however it is just a theory. Justin could ALSO have been merely working for some other Nemesis-infected person.

The "we". He almost is certainly NOT referring to the White Council as a whole, and probably not even the Wardens. My guess is that he is referring to a certain group within the White Council, somewhat like the Grey Council, but perhaps a taskforce led by or commissioned by the Senior Council (likely the Merlin but quite possibly the Gatekeeper). I am sure Anastasia was part of this group too. Think secret police.

5. Confirmation of the fact Justin might not be dead - Morgan suspects that it could have been simulated. Now we know Harry believes he murdered Justin, but if it was a ruse, he might have been fooled and perhaps even agents on the Council might have helped cover it up.

6. Morgan seems equally disturbed by the fact Harry might have killed Justin outright at sixteen - probably because as I have speculated before, Justin was no slouch. If Harry beat him then Harry might just as easily be the monster they suspect. Think monster in the sense of Bonnie, a being "born of the spirit of a fallen freaking angel and the mind of one of the most potent wizards on the White Council. She's going to born with knowledge, and with power, and be absolutely innocent of what to do with them. a lot of people would call that monstrous" - Skin Game, ch23, p170. Harry might have freakish, monstrous power potential. Curiously also in that book, Grey tells Harry that he didn't choose the legacy she left him with her blood and she was a (according to Grey) a piece of work. One wonders exactly what blood magic is performed in making a starborn, and what was in her blood that made it possible. He might have been referring to simply being her child, and/or being related to Eb as well but I think it is more to do with the Starborn stuff.

7. Harry's potential for destruction is clear - Morgan thinks he should have been killed as the risk was too high. The fact he refers to him a Destroyer seems pretty clear, but I will get into that later.

8. Interesting that Morgan knew of the family connection between Harry, Margaret and Ebenezar. Well in the circle of confidence.

9. Morgan says he is testing him to draw out any controls that may have been emplaced. I believe he is referring to two things:  Ancient Mai's argument for not keeping Harry a wizard in Summer Knight, that the Gatekeeper explained. Ancient Mai believed that DuMorne's teachings might have shaped in ways that he can not see. I believe that was a bit of layered double-speak. They were clearly about the lessons both direct and otherwise that Harry learned from his time with Justin. But I also believe she was worried about Nemesis, either infecting or manipulating him through others. And general black magic taint - which Morgan also refers to in the same paragraph of his journal entry.

The second thing he might have been referring to is enthrallment, very fine enthrallment. I would say the fact despite everything Morgan threw at him Harry didn't turn out to be a sleeper agent is probably a good indication he isn't enthralled, however it isn't concrete. Perhaps Justin was just that good that it is buried so deep that it will only show up right at the end.

10. Morgan implies that black magic taint can be concealed.

11. Morgan, despite everything, still goes to Harry despite not knowing if Harry is a terrible monster time-bomb. Which both shows how desperate he is but also how seriously people are worried about Harry - more than a mere warlock.

12. The enemy has invaded the Senior Council by Turn Coat, according to Morgan. This is before Cristos is appointed. He could be saying that Nemesis has infected one of the Senior Council...my guess would be Mai or Merlin but anyone could be. But Morgan could also be saying that the machinations of Nemesis have managed to get between the Senior Council.

13. Quite interestingly, he talks about the web of conflicts between either the Senior Council and the Enemy, or the Senior Council itself. I think much of this will be revealed in Peace Talks.

14. I think this whole passage released before Peace Talks is to set us up for it. I think Nemesis and maybe even Harry's birthright will become more prominent in the next book.

15. Morgan had his doubts and by the end realised he was wrong about Harry. Harry might be Hellboy, but if he's on the side of the good guys I think things will work out. Seems like he is the kind of weapon that can work out really well, but also blow up in your face.

16. Is Elaine a Destroyer too? If so, the fact that she is flying under the radar is pretty worrying.

17. Pretty sure the reason Morgan was sure there was no "Black Council" is because of Nemesis. He understood that was a simplistic view of a far bigger problem. Which isn't to say the Circle isn't an organization, but they are probably more than just dark wizards with an axe to grind and probably have many other supernatural entities on their roster. And maybe they are nemfected, or just some, or maybe not. But almost certainly they are linked to the Outsiders...

18. What the hell is a Destroyer? Last we knew Harry was merely referred to as Starborn or Child born of the Stars. The only thing we knew about them is that they were born with the potential to wield great power of the Outsiders. Doesn't smack of destruction directly. But what if Harry is more than merely a potential leader of Outsiders, or gate opener etc. What if he actually can cause mass magical destruction on his own? Would be very Dresden. And could explain why so many people want him on their team, or dead.


Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 05, 2020, 02:01:30 AM
As the journal entry is in the form of a letter to Luccio, "we" could easily be the two of them.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 05, 2020, 02:18:21 AM
Here is the thing. We know that Jim used the words adversary and nemesis to set us off. The question is did Morgan know what he was referring to.  Up until his death he was yelling at Dresden that there was no black council even while he was being set up by it.

Maybe because mind-controlled Outsider puppets are a different matter from a cabal of wizard traitors with their own agenda. Then again, maybe protesting there is no Black Council was just another case of not playing it straight with Harry to probe his reaction.

What's really interesting here is that by Morgan being concerned Harry could have been N-fected, at least subtly, Jim is finally confirming humans aren't immune because of free will. Also, Morgan considers it a credible possibility that Justin faked his own death.

On the other hand, what's really puzzling about this is that Morgan would leave a note that he's just presuming Anastasia will find on his body that implicates her as someone also in the know about Nemesis. According to Titania, that's ... pretty damn risky, if a Nemesis agent were to finish him off and retrieve the journal off his body. And he's wrote this on the way to Harry, who he thinks might well be taken.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 05, 2020, 02:27:52 AM
Ok, so after I've finished picking my jaw up off the floor, I can think lol.
Well, yeah I think the 'we' does just refer to Luccio and him.
To me, this reads that the 'Black Council aka The Circle is a loose (ish) collection of individuals working together-for the most part-with only some being nemfected and being directed by those who are powerful enough to not be nemfected themselves.
I'm not surprised that you can hide black magic taint, that makes a great deal of sense. If it couldn't be, then half the plot would be solved lol.
Well, I bet all the Malcolm got murdered theories are gonna shoot through the roof. At this point, I doubt it's a red herring but you never know. But yeah, Justin taking Harry and Elaine really does speak of a cover up. And speaking of Elaine, its pretty lucky/amazing she's flown under the radar for so long. Hmm, does this mean she'll get a big moment to shine later on at some point?
I'm with Yuillegan on a lot of these points Morgan makes about Nemesis. I bet the upper echelons of the WC do know about Nemesis, esp when Rashid is your Gatekeeper. It's just an unspoken thing within the council.
For me the most interesting thing to speculate on is Margaret and Morgan's relationship, there's so much to unpack there. Really can't wait for Harry's reaction to that!
@Snark Knight: Ooooh yeah, all good points. Hmm, maybe the black magic taint is what lets you have a possibility for N-fection?
Hm, I bet he was desperate enough to risk the note falling into the wrong hands. But, but, the question now is, will Harry or another character get to read this at some point?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Navis on February 05, 2020, 02:41:30 AM
For every answer this short story answered it raised two more, and it answered a lot of questions. ;) I did find one thing interesting though it's from this passage:

(click to show/hide)

What I infer from this is that forces were in place not only to remove Harry from his dad but also did it years before he was adopted by Justin.

Does this mean that Nemesis killed or influenced the death of Harry's dad?

Did Justin adopt Harry as a coincidence or was he guided by Nemesis years after Harry's dad dying to him?

As a side note, how many people did Margaret ask to look after Harry?

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 05, 2020, 02:56:38 AM
My theory now is that Justin had known, either b/c Margaret told him or he found out through some other means, so that he had a plan to snag a starborn from Margaret and had to spend a great deal of time on this plan. He'd have enough in play to be able to not only murder Malcolm in such a way that it wouldn't be traceable as magic. Since Justin does have some shady ties, I'd say that's how Nemesis would know about Harry and Malcolm.
LOL, well this counts as two now, any more and this'll get a bit silly.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 03:15:01 AM
His journal entry is aimed at Luccio, implying that she doesn't know.  He calls it his final confession. He's feeding her information that he thinks she needs.
Quote
There’s little time, and far too much to say. I am losing blood and my thoughts wander when I must be concise.
This is an interesting passage.
Quote
I suppose it’s possible that Malcolm’s death was natural, but given this child’s ongoing misfortune it seems clear to me that he has been marked with an Adversary from the moment of his birth.
Did Morgan think that Harry was nemfected from birth?  Something like this comes up in Turn Coat when Rashid goes to stop Harry at the island.  He examines Harry with the crystal eye that he uses at the gate. So the we could refer to Rashid, and Rashid ponders the wisdom of killing Harry  outright.
Quote
I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically.
Harry's disappearance carries a whiff of what happened to Molly later.  Somebody reached in to the system and manipulated a child to use as a tool.
Quote
From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
This sounds like what was feared was a powerful wizard raised as a killer, possibly one with a nemfection. Consider what the coins do for mortals.  This from Lea in Ghost Story.
Quote
Quite.  Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.
The we may refer to Eb. Eb had seen Malcolm alive, implying that he knew about Harry. It may also refer to Rashid.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 05, 2020, 04:05:29 AM
Morgan wrote the entry before he fled to Chicago.

Quote
I will seek his assistance. Given who he is, he will have little choice but to give it.

I had a slightly different reaction than Navis to finding out that Harry was hidden 4 years before Justin ever adopted him. Malcom died when Harry was 6. Harry was 10 when Justin adopted him. Harry kills Justin at 16 and is almost immediately found. Morgan says "Justin DuMorne got to him before I could." I'm fairly certain that Morgan thinks DuMorne was the one who hid Harry. Morgan could have been mistaken. Assuming he was correct, DuMorne hid Harry for 10 years and left him in the foster system for four years. Probably so that Harry would be appropriately grateful for being rescued.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 05, 2020, 04:49:16 AM
I don't think I've ever had so many questions over of such a short story.
(click to show/hide)
Also Avernite's questions. Such a revelation and so many questions.

@Mira: https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more (https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more)

Thank you !  Wow..
(click to show/hide)
Quote
I had a slightly different reaction than Navis to finding out that Harry was hidden 4 years before Justin ever adopted him. Malcom died when Harry was 6. Harry was 10 when Justin adopted him. Harry kills Justin at 16 and is almost immediately found. Morgan says "Justin DuMorne got to him before I could." I'm fairly certain that Morgan thinks DuMorne was the one who hid Harry. Morgan could have been mistaken. Assuming he was correct, DuMorne hid Harry for 10 years and left him in the foster system for four years. Probably so that Harry would be appropriately grateful for being rescued.

I am not sure that Morgan is completely sane.  He indeed questions his own sanity because of his obsession with Harry, at the same time his failure to locate him when he was a child.  Here is something that could explain it all, Peabody's ink... After all we aren't
sure how many years he used it. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: magnuskn on February 05, 2020, 06:29:08 AM
Seems there are more similarities between Harry Dresden and Harry Potter than I ever thought.  ;) Morgan kinda-sorta is Severus Snape to Harry.

Now, if Jim ever shows a flashback where a giant man on a motorcycle approaches Harry at the orphanage and tells him "Yer a Wizard, 'arry!"....  ;D
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Yuillegan on February 05, 2020, 07:19:20 AM
Bad Alias, Morris, 123Chikadee - It most definitely refers to others, only perhaps including Luccio. It isn't a letter to her for a start, it his final journal entry in his diary. You can tell this as it is called Journal. Also, when writing a letter to a person you don't normally refer to the recipient in the third person (i.e. if you are saying he the letter is written to Luccio, why would he write "I thought it would make a good impression on Anastasia, who I presume will be reading this entry". He is writing, as in most journals, to whomever is the reader (which only potentially would include Luccio - and was his hope she too will read it, but not exclusively or even directly just for her eyes only).

The "we" could well refer to the Gatekeeper, Eb etc, but I am sure he knew certain people would almost certainly read it, people who know about Nemesis and Harry as a starborn etc. That pool of people is pretty small.

SK - I think you might be too hooked on the idea this group (if it is a monolith, or just one group) is just traitor wizards. Harry's own arrogance and short-sightedness, which he freely admits in this case, is why he assumed it must be wizards in the first place. Apart from Harry's ideas, there isn't anything to support that it is just wizards. Indeed, we have seen several vampires who appear to part of the team and probably others. The Grey Council isn't just wizards (at the very least one god, and probably a certain Billy Goat). I mean it's possible he was saying "there is no Black Council" to test Harry, but honestly it seems like he understood the problem was far more complex than Harry realized. Hell he knew about Nemesis at this point, and Harry takes several more years to find out about them and see the scale of the problem.

I agree Jim may well be confirming that humans are vulnerable to Nemesis infection...although as he hasn't outright said it I am sure he has room to maneuver. Still though, definitely introducing the possibility that people can think it is possible.

My guess is wherever he left his journal, he knew only certain people who he trusted could find it, and I believe at least initially it would have been impossible for Luccio to find it. He basically writes this immediately after he is found framed for LaFortier's murder and has been injured by the Wardens. He was likely lying low waiting for his next moment to travel. It might have been risky to write it, but it was his last words potentially I imagine and I think like many in such situations he wanted to say his piece.

Navis - I agree with Bad Alias that likely it was to make Harry bitter for a while so that he would be so grateful for Justin. He went from a happy life to a miserable one, but it would take time for him to really despair to the point where Justin would have seemed like a savior.

Morris - what doesn't Luccio know about? Nemesis? Black Council? Harry being the Destroyer? All seem unlikely to me.
Very interesting that you mention Rashid also trying to work out Harry. Remember he says unless you use the sight, it is more an art than a science and takes time to learn what to look for. I don't know that the Eye helps with that or not, apart from the fact he seems to share the Mothers' ability to see multiple timelines.
I don't think they merely feared Harry as a Warlock in the employ of Nemesis or having been nemfected. I think the capitalization of Destroyer says that much. Harry always assumed that's what it was, but his information was limited. They feared him because he was meant to be something far worse.

Mira - he was too old to be affected like the young Wardens. Maybe nugged a tad like the older Council members, but hardly insane. Maybe it made him more judgemental, more righteous, more fanatical but not mad.

Magnuskn - Interesting you mention Snape. One of my theories is that Eb will be killed by someone Harry trusts or thought was dead, similar to the scene with Albus Dumbledore's death and Snape's murder of him. Although who knows if that person will actually be a triple agent like Snape or not.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 09:59:39 AM
@Yuillegan
I believe you are right.  So who is the teacher? 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 05, 2020, 10:03:56 AM
Seems there are more similarities between Harry Dresden and Harry Potter than I ever thought.  ;) Morgan kinda-sorta is Severus Snape to Harry.

Yes! I immediately thought that too.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 05, 2020, 10:10:23 AM
That's mean folks, Morgan isn't nearly as big a jerk as Snape was!
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 11:36:58 AM
There is no indication he loved Maggie. And he treats Harry like an unexploded bomb.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 05, 2020, 11:44:28 AM
   Since Margaret supposedly was under a death sentence herself because of her crimes.. Why would Morgan promise to take care of her child?  Why didn't he make himself known to Malcolm as their protector?  Why was the child Harry so difficult to trace until Justin came on the scene and adopted him?  Given everything that surrounded Margaret's death, why didn't he look into Malcolm's more closely?

Is Nemesis no more than Lord Voldermort?  It that must not be named?  Because remember the scene when Titania whispered it to Harry?  No one has mentioned it since, even in the Winter Court it is only vaguely referred to as "the Enemy."  It has never been mentioned by wizards before.  Rashid has this huge "tool" of an eye for spotting the Enemy, uses it at the Gates, why isn't he screening everyone on the Council?  What is more why did he imply to Harry in Cold Days that the Senior Council really doesn't know what his job is as Gatekeeper.  If Morgan thought that Harry was truly infected, why didn't he just give him the chop when he was under the Doom?  Why did he not think that perhaps that it was impossible for even the Blackstaff to kill his own grandson?  He also knew very well that Luccio had murdered LaFortier, he covered for her and that is why they were after him in Turn Coat.  Also he was instantly on the run when that happened, so when did he have time to make a journal entry?

 On a lot of levels while sensational, none of it makes any sense..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 02:08:13 PM
@Yuillegan
Well I did some digging, Luccio was Morgan's Master. It was when he fell in love with her.
Quote from: Turn Coat
“You,” I asked, “and Morgan?”
She was quiet for a moment before she said, “I never allowed it to happen. It wasn’t fair to him.”
“But he wanted it anyway,” I said.
She nodded.
“Hell’s bells,” I sighed.
She folded her arms over her stomach, never looking up. “Was it any different with your apprentice, Harry?”
Now for this passage from Morgans Journal.
Quote
I haven’t kept this journal since my seventies. I only started it because I thought it would make a good impression on Anastasia, who I presume will be reading this entry.

I will spare you the schoolboy platitudes, my teacher. My old friend. Though you have never said it, I have always known that you have always known my heart.
Rereading this I'm assuming that he speaks of two  people, the Anastasia that was, when he was an apprentice, and Luccio the women he knows today, who is in a different body.  It's making me craaaazy.

   Since Margaret supposedly was under sentence herself because of her crimes.. Why would Morgan promise to take care of her child?
Because Harry was born to be a weapon, and it's why the Council fears him.  This is established in Summer Knight when Martha Liberty tells Eb "you know what he was meant to be".

But if it's your gun, then you can use it.  This would be sufficient context for keeping Harry alive.  That and his Grandfather has carte-blanche to murder you if you try to kill his grandson. And one thought cascades to another.  Sean Connery as Eb. :D
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 05, 2020, 02:49:50 PM
Quote
Rereading this I'm assuming that he speaks of two  people, the Anastasia that was, when he was an apprentice, and Luccio the women he knows today, who is in a different body.  It's making me craaaazy.

   He whole mind about her is clouded by his love for her, as Rashid pointed out he wore his heart on his sleeve about her for years.  Her changing bodies isn't going to change his feelings for her, perhaps allow him to make excuses for her [he didn't know about the ink] but not change his feelings. 
Quote
Because Harry was born to be a weapon, and it's why the Council fears him.  This is established in Summer Knight when Martha Liberty tells Eb "you know what he was meant to be".
Yes, that line makes more sense now.  However by the same token if the Council knew that Harry was born to be a weapon, how come they totally dropped the ball from his birth to Justin's death and his arrest... Further, why even bother with a trial? 
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But if it's your gun, then you can use it.  This would be sufficient context for keeping Harry alive.  That and his Grandfather has carte-blanche to murder you if you try to kill his grandson. And one thought cascades to another.  Sean Connery as Eb.
Or not,  guard dogs can turn on their master..  I've gotten the impression that few on the Council even knew that Margaret was Eb's daughter and even fewer outside of Rashid, knew that Harry was his grandson..  Martha Liberty's line suggests that she didn't know the truth..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 06:44:04 PM
To be clear, when I speak of two Anastasia's I'm pointing out a writers device, where one character is treated as two, in this case the love he couldn't have, and the friend she became. And since I believe Jim is devious, I believe it is an attempt at obfuscation.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 05, 2020, 06:53:17 PM
...
Now, if Jim ever shows a flashback where a giant man on a motorcycle approaches Harry at the orphanage and tells him "Yer a Wizard, 'arry!"....  ;D

Strength of a River in his Shoulders will be riding a prehistoric species of Elk, still dwelling in the deep Nevernever reaches of Arcadia.

And he won't be speaking in a broad "West Country" accent.

Otherwise... you nailed it.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 05, 2020, 07:04:24 PM
To be clear, when I speak of two Anastasia's I'm pointing out a writers device, where one character is treated as two, in this case the love he couldn't have, and the friend she became. And since I believe Jim is devious, I believe it is an attempt at obfuscation.

   My point is Morgan took the fall for her,  didn't matter which body, past love or present friendship.
Rashid pointed to her personality shift which led to her affair with Harry, but Rashid was more inclined to blame that on the ink than the body change..  Also the way Harry said that Morgan loved Luccio, implied his feelings for her hadn't changed even if she never let him come close. So in
terms of her body change, I don't think plot device applies here.  Though back when she and Harry were an item, she used her new younger body as an excuse for her reawakened desire for sex.  Sadly for Harry in Turn Coat we find out it was the ink after all.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 05, 2020, 07:09:25 PM
... And you know what I am thinking? Ivy knows what Morgan wrote. So, what if she is becoming wary of Dresden herself? Or, on the other hand, why if she decides to try to help in some subtle ways ...

I'm pretty sure Ivy has Harry firmly pegged as "maybe at risk, but one of the good guys."

She'll have seen Morgan write it, but she'll remember all Harry's history of Doing the Right Thing (she she also knows what's written on Harry's gravestone, after all; and all of Susan's articles, research notes, reports to higher-ups in St.Giles, the records of the Red Court & the ritual they were performing (that Harry turned back on them) etc etc etc).

Above all, she'll know that when she was in deadly danger, Harry risked everything to save her, which speaks on a deeper level than any writing... even if you're The Archive, you're still a little girl, and Harry saved her.

She knows how much the Bad Guys like to sow FUD as a tactic, even a major strategy.

She'll recognize Morgan as a victim of exactly that.
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 05, 2020, 08:09:48 PM
   Since Margaret supposedly was under a death sentence herself because of her crimes ...

Wait... WAS she?

She was certainly pushing the boundaries, linedancing at the edges of the Laws, trying to get the WC to revisit and revise their Laws, seeking more "social justice" and protection for mortals, general activism and interventionism by the WC.

We know she was on the Warden's "watchlist."

But I didn't think she had ever been convicted of Lawbreaking, or gotten any death sentence (at least, not from the WC) ... ?  Being on a watchlist is VERY different than being under a death sentence!

... Why was the child Harry so difficult to trace until Justin came on the scene and adopted him?

Presumably, because Justin was behind the act of hiding Harry.

...  Given everything that surrounded Margaret's death, why didn't he look into Malcolm's more closely? ...

I presume he looked into the matter as closely as he could.  He was "on mission" when Malcom died, there was likely at least one Sunrise to wash away magical traces.

But above all -- he was a working Warden:  a cop.  Like Murphy was.  And (like Murphy was) he was subject to oversight.  While Luccio may have sympathized/protected him, he already knew an "enemy" had "invaded the Senior Council itself."

So Morgan's investigation & action was limited (like Murphy's was) by what he could get away with, given an "enemy" who had such oversight.

... If Morgan thought that Harry was truly infected, why didn't he just give him the chop when he was under the Doom? ...

Morgan didn't think Harry is infected.

Morgan feared Harry might be infected.

Morgan was "stress testing" Harry, trying to see if Harry showed signs of using Black Magic or being Nemfected, trying to force Harry into needing to use the shortcuts-to-power those represent, the weakness of character they display.

I think Morgan would have been... more comfortable? ... if he could have proven Harry to be a BlackHat.  Far better, for brawler-type wizards like Morgan (and Harry (and Eb)) to face a clear opponent upon whom you can unleash all your powers, than to have a viper slithering 'round in your own nest!

But in the end, Morgan couldn't quite bring himself to execute a child (and then a very-young man) who kept showing he DID have the self-restraint to avoid using black magic, every time he got pushed or tempted that direction.

... He also knew very well that Luccio had murdered LaFortier, he covered for her and that is why they were after him in Turn Coat.  Also he was instantly on the run when that happened, so when did he have time to make a journal entry? ...

Actually, he knew Luccio didn't kill LaFortier.  He knew that Luccio was somebody's tool, a mind-thrall used to kill LaFortier... in other words, just another victim (but one custom-made to take the fall, and to disrupt the WC).

It's an interesting parallel to how Toot & "the Za Lord's Guard" were also "just tools" and bore no animus for killing Summer Lady Aurora.  Titania's wrath was wholly-reserved for Harry (she could have off'ed the little faeries in a heartbeat, if she had wanted to).

But even "on the run," Morgan would have had moments of downtime, periods where he was bandaging, eating, drinking, resting, etc.  He was using the Summer Boon to be safe from all scrying, after all.  And he evidently thought that his thoughts and conclusions on "the Dresden Situation" were of tactical or strategic importance to Luccio and any other allies, so it was a priority to get them down in writing (all too likely he'd die being captured!).
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 05, 2020, 08:17:41 PM
@g33k The point is not Harry's heart. He could be a good person and still become something terrible against his will. Remember Harry himself dreads that. It could be that becoming a Destroyer has nothing to do with him as a person but only with the circumstances of his birth, and it could be triggered for anything. And also, Nemesis can infect good people, like Lily. So it is not a problem of what Ivy knows about Harry being a good man but about what he could become. In a way, Harry is still under a Doom of Damocles  :P

There is no indication he loved Maggie. And he treats Harry like an unexploded bomb.

Really? I totally understood that from the letter.

Or another topic, I always wondered about Morgan dying curse. For me, it made no sense that he, a warrior, a warden, did not use it against his enemies. Perhaps he was so focused on writing the journal that he weakened himself too much and couldn't gather enough power for that. Or he did something else with it, like protecting Luccio somehow.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 05, 2020, 08:58:50 PM
... Really? I totally understood that from the letter ...
We don't get very MUCH Morgan/Maggie from the letter.  He seems to have held her in somewhat higher regard than many others did... he didn't call her "LeFey" or a "warlock" or any other disparaging term; OTOH, he did call her by the full/formal "Margaret" rather than "Maggie" or another familiar shortening.  He held her in high-enough regard to promise to protect her child (and how and when did she get him to promise that???!?  Was it a dying request?  A bargain from earlier?  Or, yes, a promise to a beloved?  We really don't know... ) .

But the "in love with Harry's Mom" parallel to Snape & Lily... that isn't really shown, IMHO.  She's only named once (and he says nothing about failing to protect her!).  Most of the letter is about the strategic Big Picture, and Harry's potential role in it. 

Morgan mentions nothing about Lord Raith, who fathered Thomas with her; nor about Malcom, who fathered Harry (in contrast to Snape, who seemed obsessed with James Potter).  Morgan was (intentionally) stress-testing Harry, trying to see if he'd show hidden signs of Nemesis or Black Magic.  Snape was (without even seeming to realize it) taking his hatred & resentment of James out on Harry.

I /do/ see some parallels, but I don't see that one, the "in love with Harry's mother."  Or at least, I don't see it as "demonstrated" or "clear," it's simply... not given any spotlight in either direction.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 05, 2020, 09:16:44 PM
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Actually, he knew Luccio didn't kill LaFortier.  He knew that Luccio was somebody's tool, a mind-thrall used to kill LaFortier... in other words, just another victim (but one custom-made to take the fall, and to disrupt the WC).

But that isn't the point,  whether or not Luccio was being used as a tool is beside the point, the knife
was in her hand when it was plunged into LaFortier's body, she still was going to die for it.. So Morgan took the fall for her..  Because he loves her he still doesn't accept that she killed him, he just won't believe his lying eyes.  Perhaps she cannot be held responsible because of the ink, but she still did it.
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I presume he looked into the matter as closely as he could.  He was "on mission" when Malcom died, there was likely at least one Sunrise to wash away magical traces.

He isn't the only warden, he could have handed off guard duty to another..
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We know she was on the Warden's "watchlist."

But I didn't think she had ever been convicted of Lawbreaking, or gotten any death sentence (at least, not from the WC) ... ?  Being on a watchlist is VERY different than being under a death sentence!

I'm pretty sure she was under a death sentence,  it was no secret that she had broken several of the laws to warrant it.
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Morgan didn't think Harry is infected.

Morgan feared Harry might be infected.

Based on what?  His vast experience with infected people/creatures?  Jim is pulling this from out of thin air, because with the exception of Rashid, nobody on the Council seems to know what it is or that it even exists.  Rashid said as much in Cold Days.
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But in the end, Morgan couldn't quite bring himself to execute a child (and then a very-young man) who kept showing he DID have the self-restraint to avoid using black magic, every time he got pushed or tempted that direction.
Someone innocent you mean...  Morgan didn't have a problem lopping off heads of young people, the Korean Kid, he was about to lop off Molly's head on the Merlin's command.
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But even "on the run," Morgan would have had moments of downtime, periods where he was bandaging, eating, drinking, resting, etc.  He was using the Summer Boon to be safe from all scrying, after all.  And he evidently thought that his thoughts and conclusions on "the Dresden Situation" were of tactical or strategic importance to Luccio and any other allies, so it was a priority to get them down in writing (all too likely he'd die being captured!).

I don't buy that, he was in pretty bad shape by the time he showed up at Harry's place and worse by the time they got to Demonreach..  I seriously doubt he was allowed to write down his thoughts just prior to the trial either.  Anyway, not much that he wrote down would have been much use to Luccio,  none of it would have been anything she didn't know already in one form or another.  She had already made her own judgement of Harry, she made him a warden..
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We don't get very MUCH Morgan/Maggie from the letter.  He seems to have held her in somewhat higher regard than many others did... he didn't call her "LeFey" or a "warlock" or any other disparaging term; OTOH, he did call her by the full/formal "Margaret" rather than "Maggie" or another familiar shortening.  He held her in high-enough regard to promise to protect her child (and how and when did she get him to promise that???!?  Was it a dying request?  A bargain from earlier?  Or, yes, a promise to a beloved?  We really don't know... ) .
This just doesn't make any sense to me based on whats in all of the books..  Rashid makes sense
he traveled the Ways with Margaret, he was friends with Eb, as is Listens to Wind, both have made
an effort to look out for Harry, not Morgan..  His last last words to Harry were he went to him because he know what it was like to be an innocent man hounded by law.. Closest thing according to Harry that he ever came to an apology...  Nothing about a promise to his mother, you'd think that be important last words from Morgan to Harry..
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Morgan mentions nothing about Lord Raith, who fathered Thomas with her; nor about Malcom, who fathered Harry (in contrast to Snape, who seemed obsessed with James Potter).  Morgan was (intentionally) stress-testing Harry, trying to see if he'd show hidden signs of Nemesis or Black Magic.  Snape was (without even seeming to realize it) taking his hatred & resentment of James out on Harry.
Nothing about stress testing him because he feared that Harry was infected.. You'd think that might
be important as part of his dying words.. Because if Morgan thought it, others would as well.. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 05, 2020, 09:51:59 PM
@g33k The point is not Harry's heart. He could be a good person and still become something terrible against his will. Remember Harry himself dreads that... So it is not a problem of what Ivy knows about Harry being a good man but about what he could become ...

The thing is, Harry has shown an extraordinary degree of stubbornness about this sort of thing.  Lash testified that it was unique.  Nic (and Anduriel!!!?!) both expected the Shadow to still be inside Harry, ready to immobilize him at a word.  Even if she had been there, I think Lash wouldn't have:  she was Harry's friend Lash, and no longer Lasciel's Shadow.

At the Shedd, Ivy witnessed him penetrate the Denarian plot, call a warning, and fight against ALL the Denarians (when he knew he'd be overmatched)... and then come back to fight another round, and rescue her.

Cold calculation as an Archive (of Harry-the-potential-Destroyer) may be at war with Ivy-the-girl (who experiences Harry as warm, kind, heroic beyond all expectations, and persistently able to resist both tempting lures and vast coercive pressures to turn to the Dark Side).
 
It's now well after Morgan wrote that entry, of course, but the theme persists...

I think Mab is an active and knowing participant, intentionally tempering Harry to resist "becoming" something terrible against his own will.  Where Harry perceives her as trying to bend him to her will, turn him "into a thug" (and he feels the need to show her "why he isn't one" and "why she shouldn't do it") and keeps throwing Hot&Sexy babes at him, placing him in situations to tempt him into rage, lust, other darkling Winter passions... what she's actually doing is tempering him, making him more and more able to resist being turned into something he would despair being.

She wants him to be terrible, yes; but within the limits of his own will.  Terrible, but also terribly self-controlled.
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 05, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Well when your bleeding out you may not get to everything that might be on your to do list.  And unless I miss my guess love had nothing to do with his promise to Maggie.  I think she cut a deal. Something for something.

If you know who the journal is aimed at it will tell you what everyone knew.  It appears that the Council knew some things but not others.  They knew what Justin was doing but it appears they didn't know until after the fact, when Harry killed Justin.  However we know that Eb had at least seen Malcolm and his grandson.  I'm currently thinking that the we is Eb and Morgan and maybe Rashid.

Then there is that oddball entry in the official timeline.  What did Maggie and Malcolm go to DC for.  So many possible wags and so little data.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 05, 2020, 10:39:47 PM
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I will spare you the schoolboy platitudes, my teacher. My old friend. Though you have never said it, I have always known that you have always known my heart.
I'm pretty sure this is directed to Luccio. And my interpretation is that "we" is definitely Morgan and Luccio, but probably Morgan, Luccio, and others.

I've always thought that Morgan's insistence that there is no Black Council was upholding the party line just like the Merlin does after Morgan's death that there is no rogue element of the White Council operating in the shadows.

Harry knows very little about Nemesis. Lily and Harry believed a mortal could be infected. All this does is add Morgan and "we" to the pool of people probably believe mortals can be infected. It's very likely that Morgan and "we" know a good deal more about Nemesis than Harry and maybe more than Lily did. For example, Morgan, etc. could know that black magic corruption and Nemesis are the same thing, as some here have theorized.
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From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
As has been pointed out, this only shows that Morgan believed that Harry could have been under the influence of Nemesis; it does not show that Morgan believes Harry could have been infected. All that said, the only evidence we've seen that indicates mortals can't be infected is that Nemesis gives fairies mortal abilities.

I agree that they weren't scared that Harry was a warlock. They were scared he was a Destroyer, which I'm willing to say is something much worse.

Rereading this I'm assuming that he speaks of two  people, the Anastasia that was, when he was an apprentice, and Luccio the women he knows today, who is in a different body.  It's making me craaaazy.
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I am losing blood and my thoughts wander.
He's not being entirely coherent. He's talking to himself, and then starts addressing Anastasia directly. Or at least that's my read.

Ivy's also read all of Harry's journals. She knows that Uriel is impressed with him. I can't imagine a much better recommendation.

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She [Margaret] was guilty of violating the First law, among other ... . The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. ... I had orders regarding her as well.
Blood Rites Ch. 35. She hadn't been tried yet, but Eb said she would have been executed if caught. After Harry asks "What happened?" Eb goes into her meeting Justin and her death.

While Luccio may have sympathized/protected him, he already knew an "enemy" had "invaded the Senior Council itself."
I don't think we can time stamp that to when Harry disappeared.

@Dina: The journal entry is clearly written before Turn Coat.

@Mira: What makes you say "nobody on the Council seems to know what it [Nemesis] is or that it even exists.  Rashid said as much in Cold Days." Morgan and "we" clearly know.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 06, 2020, 02:50:45 AM
Hm, I bet he was desperate enough to risk the note falling into the wrong hands. But, but, the question now is, will Harry or another character get to read this at some point?

Right. Like, did he succeed at passing it off to Luccio when he saw her? I don't actually remember whether they were alone together off page in TC. Would it have passed to LtW or Mai when he was taken into custody?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 06, 2020, 07:08:12 AM
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@Mira: What makes you say "nobody on the Council seems to know what it [Nemesis] is or that it even exists.  Rashid said as much in Cold Days." Morgan and "we" clearly know.

  Because on page 341 at the Gates, they talk about the Adversary and what Harry is up against, that he needs help.  Rashid says he will do the paperwork to confirm that Harry is indeed alive to the Council.  But then he also says that he knows how it is to be Harry fighting a battle alone and gestures towards the Gates.. Then he says this to Harry.

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He gestured toward the battleground.  "Precisely."  He seemed to think about it for a moment, and then nodded.  "I will do what I can.  If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council,which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much
   



Quote
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Yuillegan on February 06, 2020, 07:57:35 AM
Mira - the Council only knows as much as it needs to. Not necessarily everyone in it. I would say that several members, definitely the Merlin and probably Mai, LtW, Eb and Liberty all know bits about his role. Probably a hell of a lot more than most of the entire Council. No idea about LaFortier or Pietrovich but I would be willing to bet they knew a bit. You don't get to the Senior Council without acquiring a hell of a lot of knowledge. Not saying they all know the same bits, but probably a fair bit between them. Plus any other similarly senior Wizards like Klaus the Toymaker, Luccio etc.

Also, I understand what you are saying about how it doesn't seem to make sense with our previous information. Probably because there are deliberate holes. But also because we mostly see things from Harry's perspective. Morgan might look quite different from those who respected him. Not to mention, this is probably relatively new material. I would expect there to be some contrast between it and a book written several years ago, with elements that have come to light that might be entirely new that were not decided at the time of TC. It's meant to cast new light on things, not blend in.

SK - Guarantee the whole Senior Council, and probably including Cristos, read that note. Although Cristos does seem to get shut out a bit...

Bad Alias - Morgan was appearing to uphold the party line, but it might not just be the party line. It might just be that there isn't a formal "Black Council" as such. Eb only vaguely acknowledges the idea, probably because he knows a hell of a lot that Harry doesn't about the real threat. The Merlin was protecting the Council by not acknowledging the existence of an external threat or competing group, but might also know that there might be several groups.

Morris - I think you are right, I think Margaret and Morgan had a deal. They probably weren't friends, but likely by the end had a mutual understanding and maybe even respect. Your idea about Jim's literary device could well be true. Although we should also remember that when writing a journal it is expected often that there will be more than one reader, especially in such circumstances that Morgan wrote his final entry. So it isn't unusual that he should both refer to Anastasia in third person, and then address her later as he realized she might end up reading this (and perhaps hoped so).

Also excellent pick up on the Washington D.C. detail. That was definitely a hint for keen observers. I wonder what is in D.C. that Margaret Le Fay hid or did? I am sure it wasn't mere sight-seeing with Malcolm. Too coincidental in my opinion, especially considering that is where the Library of Congress is (which if you remember, is the home of the vanilla mortal authorities charged with fighting the supernatural by the U.S.A).

Dina - Even if they take Harry's will, they can never make him do anything he doesn't actually want to do. They can coerce and pressure and torture and trick and even play puppet master, but they can not change his will. I think Harry could never become what they want without some part of him wanting it.

G33k - Interesting idea that Mab's might be trying to make him more resilient against temptation, although I would go one further and say that was part of Winter's purpose altogether. Part of protecting mortals. Winter is all about survival of the fittest through natural selection.

I think there are two possible reasons the Council had trouble keeping track of Harry as a child.
1. They actually kept track of him well enough (but quietly) right up until Justin hid him
2. Conspiracy. Maggie would definitely have tried to hide him, just like Harry does with his own child. Eb also probably would have assisted with that I am sure, not to mention what other friends either of them had who would have aided that. And of course, Justin probably had help from within the Council (and likely outside of it) to obfuscate Harry's whereabouts. Hell he probably agreed to help with the search. And when Morgan couldn't turn up anything (one of the Council's best Wardens) they probably realized he was lost for a while. Chance and fate helped bring him into their vision, and they were on him like white on rice ever after.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 06, 2020, 09:43:17 AM
The thing is, Harry has shown an extraordinary degree of stubbornness about this sort of thing.  Lash testified that it was unique.  Nic (and Anduriel!!!?!) both expected the Shadow to still be inside Harry, ready to immobilize him at a word.  Even if she had been there, I think Lash wouldn't have:  she was Harry's friend Lash, and no longer Lasciel's Shadow.

At the Shedd, Ivy witnessed him penetrate the Denarian plot, call a warning, and fight against ALL the Denarians (when he knew he'd be overmatched)... and then come back to fight another round, and rescue her.

Cold calculation as an Archive (of Harry-the-potential-Destroyer) may be at war with Ivy-the-girl (who experiences Harry as warm, kind, heroic beyond all expectations, and persistently able to resist both tempting lures and vast coercive pressures to turn to the Dark Side).
 
It's now well after Morgan wrote that entry, of course, but the theme persists...

I think Mab is an active and knowing participant, intentionally tempering Harry to resist "becoming" something terrible against his own will.  Where Harry perceives her as trying to bend him to her will, turn him "into a thug" (and he feels the need to show her "why he isn't one" and "why she shouldn't do it") and keeps throwing Hot&Sexy babes at him, placing him in situations to tempt him into rage, lust, other darkling Winter passions... what she's actually doing is tempering him, making him more and more able to resist being turned into something he would despair being.

She wants him to be terrible, yes; but within the limits of his own will.  Terrible, but also terribly self-controlled.

I agree about all that, specially about the Mab part. It makes a lot of sense.

@Dina: The journal entry is clearly written before Turn Coat.

Ehrm...so? And I disagree. I think it is written in Turn Coat. But anyway I don't think how that is relevant.

Dina - Even if they take Harry's will, they can never make him do anything he doesn't actually want to do. They can coerce and pressure and torture and trick and even play puppet master, but they can not change his will. I think Harry could never become what they want without some part of him wanting it.
I agree, because I am a reader and Harry is the main character. Ivy does not know that, so she may have some doubts, even when g33k is right about how Ivy "the girl" probably has enough faith in him.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 06, 2020, 12:37:19 PM
Trying to help clarify.  The journal entry is written during the events of Turn Coat but before Morgan knocks on Harry's door.  The motivating action of Turn Coat, La Fortiers murder, happens off text and before the journal entry.


Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 06, 2020, 02:57:04 PM
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Mira - the Council only knows as much as it needs to. Not necessarily everyone in it. I would say that several members, definitely the Merlin and probably Mai, LtW, Eb and Liberty all know bits about his role. Probably a hell of a lot more than most of the entire Council. No idea about LaFortier or Pietrovich but I would be willing to bet they knew a bit. You don't get to the Senior Council without acquiring a hell of a lot of knowledge. Not saying they all know the same bits, but probably a fair bit between them. Plus any other similarly senior Wizards like Klaus the Toymaker, Luccio etc.

   Need to know, means almost everyone is kept in the dark.  I find it hard to believe that Morgan was on that list.   As Rashid said, " they know only as much as they need to about our roles, and that isn't much."
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Also, I understand what you are saying about how it doesn't seem to make sense with our previous information. Probably because there are deliberate holes. But also because we mostly see things from Harry's perspective. Morgan might look quite different from those who respected him. Not to mention, this is probably relatively new material. I would expect there to be some contrast between it and a book written several years ago, with elements that have come to light that might be entirely new that were not decided at the time of TC. It's meant to cast new light on things, not blend in.

I think Jim is making an attempt to rehab Morgan's image, but I think it just raises more questions that gives answers. 
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The motivating action of Turn Coat, La Fortiers murder, happens off text and before the journal entry.

But Morgan found Luccio knife in hand over the dead body, in Turn Coat he goes into a lot of reasons why she cannot be held responsible, but the hard evidence points to her.  He then veiled her to get her away, but for some reason unable to veil himself, so he became suspect, he had to run almost immediately.  It takes time to organize one's thoughts and write a thoughtful entry.  Harry says in Cold Days that very few knew that Margaret was Eb's daughter, that inner circle of Eb's friends were Rashid, Listens to Wind, Martha Liberty...  Rashid of all of them so far has been the best at keeping his promise to Margaret, he has pulled Harry's chestnuts out of fire on more than one occasion.. Listen to Winds is next on that list..  Morgan never. 

Here is another question, if Morgan knew about Nemesis, it is strange that he never knew of Rashid and his role as Gate Keeper, above all, his Nemesis detecting eye.  Rashid had his own tests for Harry as we saw in Summer Knight, and was satisfied.. More suspicious on Demonreach, he actually scanned Harry with his eye and was satisfied.  The point I am getting to, was it just Morgan who suspected Harry?  Or the whole Council?  Surely the Merlin is in the loop as to what Rashid's role as
Gate Keeper really is..  All that needed doing was to ask him to scan Harry early on.  If Margaret asked Morgan to protect her baby, she must have told him why..  But in the first place, here is Morgan, the Warden's Warden, he'd just let Margaret go?  She did violate Laws, we have that from
Chauncy, I just cannot see Morgan having a rational conversation with her that didn't include arrest. 
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: toodeep on February 06, 2020, 04:19:48 PM
Lots of issues.

1.   Ridiculous that he would write an entry before going to see Harry saying that he is going to see Harry.  What if someone finds it before he is caught?  If it is a friend it puts them in a moral quandary, and if it is an enemy than it gives his location away.  Either way it sets up Harry for all kinds of crap.

2.   He promised to protect Margaret’s son?  Why?  We have had no indications that they knew each other, though I think they may be of approximately the same age.  If that is the case than we can assume he also knew Justin well as well.  I think Jim has a thing (which may be accurate) about people of an age grouping together.  Ebenezer has known the Merlin since he was 16, and it sounds like Eb, the Merlin, and Listens to Winds probably ran all over for and against each other in the war of 1812.  There seems to be a coterie of people Maggie’s age, and we know the new wardens all hang as a group.  Only Harry is pretty much out on his own, which is well explained.

3.   He couldn’t find Dresden?  Had he not taken any samples before he disappeared to be able to find him?  If he hadn’t it seems like he was remarkably stupid in his attempts to protect Harry.  If so, and they didn’t work, it indicates there are even more things Harry doesn’t know, since he seems to feel blood is a unpreventable connection method.

4.   “That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.  From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.”  I’m assuming he only assumes Justin got him then, but I find it interesting that, assuming that, he then assumes that Justin was making a tool for Nemesis.  It really makes it sound like:
   A.   He/They knows what Nemesis is and are opposing it. 
   B.   It seems obvious that they should oppose it if they know what it is, but if they knew/believed that Justin was a tool of it, why didn’t they take him out earlier?  They wouldn’t have learned it after his death, so they must have known it before.  Why leave a known tool of nemesis running around?
   C.   “we”  How many people know about nemesis?  Considering that this was a essentially a note to Luccio we can assume she know.  Considering he was welded at the hip to the Merlin I think we should assume he knows.  How does that effect our thinking?

5.   Morgan knew Maggie was Eb’s daughter.  This isn’t really a huge surprise if one thinks about it.  I mean, if he was of an age with her, it would be a hard secret to keep when they were younger.  But it also indicates it is not a well kept secret, so we should assume that at the very least the entire senior council knows.

6.   Morgan says the enemy has invaded the Senior Council itself.  I first took this to mean that he knew his set up was Nemesis inspired.  I’m not sure if he is assuming that person who was framing him is on the senior council (which is wrong, just very near by) or if he has another reason to believe the someone else on the Senior council is infected

7.   “A Destroyer” obviously has actual meaning.  Not enough info to guess though, other than it obviously ties into him being starborn

8.   This is really important – Wizards are innately assholes.  It is clear that they live by the “I won’t tell you anything, once you find it out on your own you’re ready to learn it” matra to a stupid degree.  Maybe this is a side effect of dealing with fey and the supernatural all the time, but man it annoys me.  He knew all of this and more – he must have known something of what Maggie was up to if he made that promise, he knows about Nemesis being the true threat, he knows about Harry being starborn and what that might entail, and he goes to Harry for help and spends days with him, and tells him nothing.  What an ass.  Especially since learning about Nemesis would have helped Harry in solving the case to some degree, since he would have a better idea of how the enemy is working and thinking.  Was shagnasty in debt to a mere mortal wizard such that he had to be a servant in that book, or was shagnasty infected and being driven by Nemesis?

9.   Nemesis – Everyone seems scared that if you talk about it, it will learn that you know about it and come to get you.  But Harry had that fight with Cat Sith were he revealed to an infected agent that he knew about it, and Nemesis reformatted Sith’s brain and Harry talked directly to Nemesis afterward, and didn’t kill it after that.  Nemesis already knows Harry knows about it.  Harry should be informing everyone who might be able to help in the fight against it about it.  Sure, he has to worry about Nemesis sneaking into his inner circle, but he doesn’t need to worry about Nemesis learning that he knows, because Nemesis already knows he knows.  But Harry is too much of a wizard and doesn’t tell anyone anything.  Harry should take Fix, Marcone, Laura Raith, Goodman Grey, and Carlos on a walk to the outer gates so they know what they are up against and explain the dangers of Nemesis.  Sure, one of them could be infected, but does telling them hurt somehow?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 06, 2020, 05:00:47 PM
Right. Like, did he succeed at passing it off to Luccio when he saw her? I don't actually remember whether they were alone together off page in TC. Would it have passed to LtW or Mai when he was taken into custody?

I'm betting that Morgan hid it (maybe in the storage-locker where Harry had set up his safehouse?), rather than "passing it off."

It's also possible that he hid it in whatever location he wrote it (before he showed up at Harry's basement).

I'm torn between thinking it's hidden somewhere that Harry will inevitably find it, and hidden such that Harry never will (we know Jim writes some Dresdenverse stuff that's never going to enter Harry's consciousness).
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 06, 2020, 05:12:41 PM
No doubt that he knew Margaret.  At least in the sense that you know a target.  Almost certainly she didn't end up on the Wardens to  do list overnight.  And nowhere does it imply that he liked her.  And the only Senior Council member that we have certain knowledge that they were aware of Harry's connection to Eb is Rashid. Unless I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: TheMagnificentBastard on February 06, 2020, 05:19:13 PM
The story strengthens the possibility that Elaine is Nemfected (or is a Nemfector). Morgan's letter associates DuMorne with Nemesis, which associates Elaine with the Adversary as well. So was it that Elaine was enthralled or was she successfully Nemfected? Furthermore, was it Elaine that Nemfected Aurora?

We know from Summer Knight that Elaine is extremely well-versed in subterfuge. We also know that she is keeping a low profile, pretending to be minorly gifted in magic, which as many have mentioned above is quite suspicious.

So what's the long-term implication? Via the events of White Night, Nemfected Elaine could have become a pivotal figure in the fastest-growing supernatural network of those with minor magical talents: Paranet.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 06, 2020, 07:32:43 PM
No doubt that he knew Margaret.  At least in the sense that you know a target.  Almost certainly she didn't end up on the Wardens to  do list overnight.  And nowhere does it imply that he liked her.  And the only Senior Council member that we have certain knowledge that they were aware of Harry's connection to Eb is Rashid. Unless I'm missing something.
   You don't promise to keep someone's child safe if you don't like them.   Rashid says there were several of Eb's friends who knew Eb's connection to Margaret.  However  it seems like Rashid had a special bond with Margaret, and given the time he has pulled Harry's chestnuts out of the fire, he also has a good idea about why she conceived Harry.

Quote
The story strengthens the possibility that Elaine is Nemfected (or is a Nemfector). Morgan's letter associates DuMorne with Nemesis, which associates Elaine with the Adversary as well. So was it that Elaine was enthralled or was she successfully Nemfected? Furthermore, was it Elaine that Nemfected Aurora?

That is the theory, it seems a very odd confidence that Elaine chooses to flee to the Summer Court and then Aurora turns up infested.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 06, 2020, 08:26:41 PM
Quote
You don't promise to keep someone's child safe if you don't like them.
You do if they cut a deal.  Something for Something.  We even have a program that is well known for doing precisely that.  The Witness Protection Program.

@g33k
The oldest trick in the plot book is to mail a document to someone you  want to have it. Of course in the modern era finding a mailbox could be a pain in the a**.

And just for laughs and giggles are you aware of a comic book character called...wait for it....Destroyer?  He drank some of the same super stuff that Captain America did. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 06, 2020, 09:51:36 PM
I have several mailbox locations memorized, just in case  :)

Trying to help clarify.  The journal entry is written during the events of Turn Coat but before Morgan knocks on Harry's door.  The motivating action of Turn Coat, La Fortiers murder, happens off text and before the journal entry.

Yes, you are right. I forgot it says he would seek Harry's help. As in the future.

Another thing about the location. Wouldn't it be fun if Morgan had a magical way to write in his journal from a distance, perhaps even mentally? And that would appear written in a physical book stored in another place? It would be like uploading something to the Cloud for instant synchronization.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 07, 2020, 12:38:38 AM
I'm betting that Morgan hid it (maybe in the storage-locker where Harry had set up his safehouse?), rather than "passing it off."

It's also possible that he hid it in whatever location he wrote it (before he showed up at Harry's basement).

I'm torn between thinking it's hidden somewhere that Harry will inevitably find it, and hidden such that Harry never will (we know Jim writes some Dresdenverse stuff that's never going to enter Harry's consciousness).

All credible possibilities. I think "Where did the note actually end up" just shot past fishing for more black court background on my list of questions to try next time there's an AMA.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 07, 2020, 12:56:10 AM
2.   He promised to protect Margaret’s son?  Why?  We have had no indications that they knew each other, though I think they may be of approximately the same age.  If that is the case than we can assume he also knew Justin well as well.  I think Jim has a thing (which may be accurate) about people of an age grouping together.  Ebenezer has known the Merlin since he was 16, and it sounds like Eb, the Merlin, and Listens to Winds probably ran all over for and against each other in the war of 1812.  There seems to be a coterie of people Maggie’s age, and we know the new wardens all hang as a group.  Only Harry is pretty much out on his own, which is well explained.

3.   He couldn’t find Dresden?  Had he not taken any samples before he disappeared to be able to find him?  If he hadn’t it seems like he was remarkably stupid in his attempts to protect Harry.  If so, and they didn’t work, it indicates there are even more things Harry doesn’t know, since he seems to feel blood is a unpreventable connection method.

I think Maggie is a couple generations older than Morgan. She was probably born late 1700's to very early 1800's; the 1811/12 New Madrid earthquakes were connected to the death of Maggie's mother - most likely Eb's retaliation for the hit. She was just biologically a lot younger than the time since her birth due to spending so much time in the NN.
Morgan born in the late 1800's. WOJ was that Kemmler was holding him as a youth because he was a body with magical potential to jump into next time he needed a backup, and he became Luccio's apprentice when she rescued him sometime following 'Fistful of warlocks'.

As for tracking Harry, Morgan probably wouldn't have been able to get fresh blood regularly enough for optimal tracking spells - it's not clear Malcolm knew Morgan was trying to be a protector and would have cooperated with that. I'm not convinced Morgan read it right in assessing Justin was responsible for hiding Harry in the foster system and only picked him up when he manifested talent, either. Lea is at least equally capable of achieving a vanishing act if she decided that was the best way to harden him up into a survivor.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 07, 2020, 02:07:51 AM
Two people were pulled from the system by Justin.  Harry and Elaine. And later Molly is tagged by someone in the juvenile system. And if Morgan was going to follow someone wouldn't it make sense to tag them in some fashion?
Quote
I'm not convinced Morgan read it right in assessing Justin was responsible for hiding Harry in the foster system and only picked him up when he manifested talent, either.
Harry ended up with Justin, so he either put him there or knew who had.  And the Fae would have been able to shield him, that has been demonstrated.  And Lea had promised to protect him because of some obligation.  Seems kinda odd that she was on vacation from that obligation for years.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 07, 2020, 02:35:27 AM
@toodeep: Yeah, I'm having a hard time figuring out where/when/how exactly Morgan got to write this out. What I'm curious about is how/why Morgan calls Justin a bastard. I mean we know why he is, but why would Morgan think that? Hard agree with points 8 and 9. Sheesh, wizards man.
@g33k: Agreed on the point about Mab.
@Mira: I could see that and it really does raise more questions than answers but not to an unbreakable degree I think. Some of it does seem to come from nowhere.
@Yillegan: Yeah I think there's a lot of professional courtesy going on there. I think I've got a bit of a theory going on. Luccio and Eb could have a close working relationship, mainly b/c Eb was revealed to be the old Captain of the Wardens before Luccio took the role(The Wild West short story). I don't think Morgan was Luccio's apprentice at the time and I can't remember where exactly I listened/read about Morgan's age, but I think it's possible that he and Margaret are contemporaries and got to socialize with each other b/c of who their masters were. So they could have spent a lot of time together, in a kind of rivalry, with Margaret being a bit older.  He could have tried to keep her on the straight and narrow but failed. They would have a bit of a falling out but eventually, when she was desperate to get out of the mess she made, that he helped her. I'm not sure how she managed to get him to try to look after Harry but I have a feeling it might be pragmatism rather than sentiment. I really doubt that a Snape/Lily thing is going to happen. Thankfully.
@TheMagnificentBastard: Yeah that's pretty neat and far reaching, especially with the Paranet point. I think we know enough to know that Nemfection can last for years and I think it can hide itself too. That'd be a nice knife twist for Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 07, 2020, 04:55:11 AM
There could have been a relationship Morgan-Maggie Sr. that could be alike to Harry-Elaine.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 07, 2020, 03:13:17 PM
Quote
Harry ended up with Justin, so he either put him there or knew who had.  And the Fae would have been able to shield him, that has been demonstrated.  And Lea had promised to protect him because of some obligation.  Seems kinda odd that she was on vacation from that obligation for years.

   I seem to remember reading,  and am more inclined to believe it was a WOJ than written in a novel or short story,  but something about Harry saying this kind lady would visit him in the orphanage, and that was Lea.   So if that is true, she checked on him, but as far as protection goes,
we know the Fae have a different view of things.  From Lea's viewpoint Harry going to Justin might have been the best thing in the long term chess game for her Queen and the Winter Court.  I doubt she was interested in Harry growing up with proper moral values.   I can see both her and Mab thinking given that Harry was a star child, Justin would best to train him as a future warrior and enforcer.   The monkey wrench in all of this was Justin had his own plans for his charges, and it backfired.  The unforeseen was Harry's arrest, trial, and being given over to Eb to finish his training. While Eb admittedly didn't train Harry a lot further in skills, he instilled a strong moral compass which meshed with the good nature/heart that he inherited from his father, Malcolm..  This all brings balance to Harry's character and saves him when things hit the fan. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 07, 2020, 05:07:53 PM
If I gambled I would put money down on Lea as Malcolm's killer.  That's a vague intuition. I would put another bet on Lara .  Or some combination of the two.  One could have shielded Harry  magically, the other may have hooks into the government even then.  Your plot, if true would dictate it.  Mab was probably not involved.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 07, 2020, 05:53:27 PM
If I gambled I would put money down on Lea as Malcolm's killer.  That's a vague intuition. I would put another bet on Lara .  Or some combination of the two.  One could have shielded Harry  magically, the other may have hooks into the government even then.  Your plot, if true would dictate it.  Mab was probably not involved.
I wouldn't just put Lea up as Malcolm's killer - also as Harry's hider. After all, who can you go to to hide someone if not the faeries?

I could totally believe Justin was chasing after Harry as much as Morgan, just that Lea tipped Justin off so Harry would learn to fight (or be broken, but in that case he'd be weak so what does Lea care?).
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 07, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Trying to help clarify.  The journal entry is written during the events of Turn Coat but before Morgan knocks on Harry's door.  The motivating action of Turn Coat, La Fortiers murder, happens off text and before the journal entry.

Not quite; not "during."

Morgan knocks on Harry's door in the opening lines of Turn Coat:  "The summer sun was busy broiling the asphalt from Chicago 's streets, the agony in my head had kept me horizontal for half a day, and some idiot was pounding on my apartment door. // I answered it and Morgan, half his face covered in blood, gasped, 'The Wardens are coming. Hide me. Please.'"

The journal entry says he will (future tense) go to Harry:  "... I will seek his assistance. Given who he is, he will have little choice but to give it."

Clearly, the journal entry was written before the events of the novel... but after LaFortier's murder (where Morgan had rescued Luccio from the frame-up and instead framed himself).
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 07, 2020, 07:05:46 PM
I include the murder as the part of the events.  But it's all good, the point is the journal is written after the murder but before he gets to Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: prince lotore on February 07, 2020, 07:13:00 PM
I like the idea that harry's dad died of natural causes and lea hid him from every one until his powers manifested then tipped off Justin.  Its her and Mab's style to make you get better by putting you in horrible situations over and over again until you can stand on your own two feet or get killed. If its not natural causes then it was probably Justin and he picked Harry up later when he really needed someone and could be molded
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 07, 2020, 08:20:43 PM
  Because on page 341 at the Gates, they talk about the Adversary ...
Ok. I think that's a bit vague to support your assertion that nobody on the Council knows what Nemesis is or that it exists.

@Yuillegan: What is the Black Council? I profer it is Harry's name for what Ramirez describes in White Night:
Quote
You think whoever is leaking information to the vampires is pretty high up [in the White Council]. ... There's a new player in the game. Cowl's on the new team. We don't know who they are, but they seem to have a hard-on for screwing over everyone equally-vampires, mortals, wizards, whoever.
That is, an organization that has high level access inside the White Council working against the White Council and others.

@Dina: I was inferring from comments that it was believed Morgan wrote the entry during Turn Coat so that he had it on him when captured on Demonreach. I thought it was one of your comments, but I'm pretty sure I was mistaken. Apologies. Anyway, the texts make it clear that he wrote it before he went to Harry for help, and Harry agreed to help him. Morgan was at Harry's when Turn Coat started. Morgan "presumes" that Luccio will read the entry. This leads me to believe Morgan has stashed it somewhere Luccio or a trusted ally will find it. He states the Senior Council is infiltrated. He's not leaving it where just anyone can get hold of it and read/destroy it.

Mira: Harry would be dead if it wasn't for Morgan. And even if Harry had survived Storm Front, he would have still been under the Doom if not for Morgan. Morgan may have agreed to a meeting through intermediaries. That sort of thing happens between hostile parties all the time.

toodeep: It's also ridiculous for Morgan to speak of past actions in the future tense.
4.B.: It could be that he only came to suspect Justin afterwards. It could also be the case that DuMorne was on the lam from the Council, but secretly so because Nemesis had to remain a secret. I'll have to think on that.
3.: Outsider help may have helped hide Harry. As Outsider knowledge is basically forbidden and Harry missed the final portion of White Council training that seems to deal with that sort of thing, and even Eb doesn't seem to know a whole lot about them.
7: I assume it has to do with him being a starborn, but wouldn't say it definitely does.

   You don't promise to keep someone's child safe if you don't like them.
Harry does all the time, and I bet Morgan would too. See his actions in saving Harry in Storm Front. Morgan is an asshole, but he's a good guy.

@Morris. Mailboxes are everywhere. Like literally every house in my home town. Also Harry's house. The big blue drop boxes are plentiful too.

WOJ was that Kemmler was holding him as a youth because he was a body with magical potential to jump into next time he needed a backup, and he became Luccio's apprentice when she rescued him sometime following 'Fistful of warlocks'.
I missed that one. Do you recall when/where he said that?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 07, 2020, 08:32:07 PM
Quote

Clearly, the journal entry was written before the events of the novel... but after LaFortier's murder (where Morgan had rescued Luccio from the frame-up and instead framed himself).
 

  That doesn't quite fit the timeline, Morgan woke up in LaFortier's room, he was dead and Luccio was holding the murder weapons..  I don't buy that Luccio was framed,  I believe she did it, but for the reasons Morgan gave plus the ink from Peabody couldn't be held responsible for it.  Problem, how could it be proved? So veiled her, not himself, got caught and blamed for it.   Peabody was the one that orchestrated it with the ink.  Rashid pretty much confirms that with the ink he got Luccio to murder LaFortier.  The damage to her mind by the ink had been severe and as Rashid put it, " doing violence wasn't against her nature."
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 07, 2020, 09:03:21 PM
  That doesn't quite fit the timeline, Morgan woke up in LaFortier's room, he was dead and Luccio was holding the murder weapons..  I don't buy that Luccio was framed,  I believe she did it, but for the reasons Morgan gave plus the ink from Peabody couldn't be held responsible for it.  Problem, how could it be proved? So veiled her, not himself, got caught and blamed for it.   Peabody was the one that orchestrated it with the ink.  Rashid pretty much confirms that with the ink he got Luccio to murder LaFortier.  The damage to her mind by the ink had been severe and as Rashid put it, " doing violence wasn't against her nature."

Pretty sure the ink was only on the Senior Council who could be tweaked only, and the younger wizards were just outright brainfried with mind magic... or do we have any reason to believe otherwise?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 07, 2020, 09:06:41 PM
1. Ridiculous that he would write an entry before going to see Harry saying that he is going to see Harry.  What if someone finds it before he is caught?  If it is a friend it puts them in a moral quandary, and if it is an enemy than it gives his location away.  Either way it sets up Harry for all kinds of crap.

Morgan's not immune to the kinds of wizard arrogance that lead to "I can totally hide this journal, such that nobody can find it... except for Anastasia!"  Particularly if he feels he has a crucial perspective / information to share.  Or, as he says:  a final (presumably posthumous) confessional.

2. He promised to protect Margaret’s son?  Why?

This is, I think, an excellent question; possibly even THE question.  That, together with the subsequent / associated questions.

What was their relationship?  Was this willingly-offered by Morgan (as others have noted, protecting kids is just a "good guy" thing, and Morgan was a "good guy"), or a hard-fought bargain by Maggie (and if so, on what terms; what did Morgan get out of it?) ?  Etc.

I'm inclined, slightly, to think something other than an old-school faerie-style "bargain" -- he calls it a promise.

Also let's notice this as Maggie arranging YET ANOTHER protector for Harry -- one of the most-dangerous Wardens (2nd only to Luccio, I presume), in addition to one of the most-dangerous Winterfae (2nd only to Mab).  This is an OMG level of protection, and it's combat-centric not "care-taking" protection; she clearly expected he'd be (as this journal entry says) "marked with an Adversary."  And this even begs the question... did she arrange any others?  Maybe following a Rule of Three ... ?

...

...omg...

...

Uriel???
 
3. He couldn’t find Dresden?  Had he not taken any samples before he disappeared to be able to find him?  If he hadn’t it seems like he was remarkably stupid in his attempts to protect Harry.  If so, and they didn’t work, it indicates there are even more things Harry doesn’t know, since he seems to feel blood is a unpreventable connection method.
Blood is the very best... but it's very transitory.  Hair could last a while longer... but that duration will probably get cut short <heh> by regular haircuts in the orphanage.  There's nothing that will last, not reliably; and as a working Warden, Morgan simply wouldn't have the time & freedom to keep going back and renewing his link.  Such frequent visits would, if anything, draw more attention to Harry (thus placing him more at-risk (and Morgan too, for that matter:  any place you visit repeatedly could easily be made a trap!)).

  4.  “That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.  From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.”  I’m assuming he only assumes Justin got him then, but I find it interesting that, assuming that, he then assumes that Justin was making a tool for Nemesis.  It really makes it sound like:
   A.   He/They knows what Nemesis is and are opposing it. 
   B.   It seems obvious that they should oppose it if they know what it is, but if they knew/believed that Justin was a tool of it, why didn’t they take him out earlier?  They wouldn’t have learned it after his death, so they must have known it before.  Why leave a known tool of nemesis running around?
You raise some interesting points here; particularly the notion that at the time Malcom Dresden dies, Morgan & cohorts knew of Nemesis and knew/suspected DuMorne as an agent of Nemesis.

Just KNOWING of Nemesis -- that long ago! -- is kind of a bombshell fact; before this, we had understood (from conversations with Eb) that knowledge of such a hidden enemy or Adversary -- using wizards & other Supernaturals as mere catspaws -- was just percolating up into the WC... and at that, only to a few open-minded of them.

Why not act?

I presume one (or more) of a few reasons --
Maybe something else?
 
5.   ...  But it also indicates it is not a well kept secret, so we should assume that at the very least the entire senior council knows.
I assume Morgan knowing means that Luccio knows, and the Merlin.  I don't assume it has spread any further, not when wizards collect secret knowledge and hoard it like treasure.

6. Morgan says the enemy has invaded the Senior Council itself.  I first took this to mean that he knew his set up was Nemesis inspired.  I’m not sure if he is assuming that person who was framing him is on the senior council (which is wrong, just very near by) or if he has another reason to believe the someone else on the Senior council is infected
We shouldn't conflate the "Black Council" with Nemesis; they aren't necessarily the same!  I think Peabody was BC, but not necessarily Nemesis.  I could be wrong -- maybe he was Nemesis, and not BC; or both BC + Nemesis.

I presume the BC is trying to use the Outsiders, within limits & under control.  I presume Nemesis is acting to bring in the outsiders without limits or control.

I don't think Nemesis has gained control of the BC or its agenda, but I do presume it has infiltrated more BC-members than the BC generally knows; I think "taking control of the BC and its agenda" is one of the projects Nemesis is working on, much like the project to make Aurora destabilize the Summer/Winter balance, or the project to corrupt Maeve into unleashing Demonreach's prisoners.

7. “A Destroyer” obviously has actual meaning.  Not enough info to guess though, other than it obviously ties into him being starborn
  I don't think it's necessarily linked to being Starborn, though I agree it's probable.  Gonna launch another thread.

8...  Was shagnasty in debt to a mere mortal wizard such that he had to be a servant in that book, or was shagnasty infected and being driven by Nemesis?
WoJ says that there are beings operating to whom shagnasty is no more than a cheap hired thug; "dumb muscle" and no more.  I don't recall Jim actually specifying that that's what was going on.  But from what we know of Shagnasty, he was operating very true to his nature and his wants, not doing something oddly and Nemesis-driven against his nature.

9. Nemesis – Everyone seems scared that if you talk about it, it will learn that you know about it and come to get you ... Sure, one of them could be infected, but does telling them hurt somehow?
As a Starborn, Harry probably possesses some unique resistances to Nemesis... maybe even a immunity, or nearly such?

Harry isn't the only one who acts oddly around naming Nemesis, or discussing it; I think blaming on general "wizard assholery" is mistaken.  EVERYONE (even Vadderung) is being careful.  I think the books support the idea that just knowing, and/or speaking out loud, is a risk; and that telling someone puts them at risk.

Having proven able to infect both a Summerlady and a Winterlady, and other senior Fae like Cat Sith, it certainly places any lesser beings at a severe risk.
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on February 08, 2020, 03:49:28 AM
First, when I saw the title Microfiction at Jim's website, I thought there may have been some kind of contest for fan fiction and this was the winner or one of the winners.  I was about half way through reading it when I thought, "This is pretty good and well written," and then I glanced up and saw, "By Jim Butcher."  Then it was, "Stop! Go back and start over and read slowly.

So here are some general impressions:

IMO Morgan seems a bit optimistic that Luccio will eventually read what he had written.  He knew she had been mind controlled into killing LeFortier.  Even though Morgan veiled Luccio and got her away from the crime scene he would have known that she could still be mind controlled by the traitor.  I wouldn't have rated her long-term survival chances very highly.  The traitor would have every reason to use her and then dispose of her or set her up to take the fall for a different crime.

Yuillegan suggested that Morgan didn't believe in the Black Council because he saw the bigger picture, that Nemesis was the real problem and therefore everyone else who may have been helping its plans were just its tools and dupes.  That is certainly a valid argument and it may be a correct one.  However, here is what Morgan said after denying the existence of the Black Council. "The Council is not divided," he said, his voice as hard and cold as I had ever heard it. "Because the moment we turn upon one another, we're finished. There is no Black Council, Dresden."  So maybe both ideas are true.  Morgan sees Nemesis as the real enemy but he fears the White Council could tear itself apart if the idea of a Black Council became public.  My guess is that Morgan would rather deal with any of Nemesis' tools discretely, but he wouldn't hesitate to do so, he would terminate such a person with extreme prejudice.

Yuillegan and 123Chickadee also mentioned The Circle.  Many of us have discussed the Black Council and the Circle.  We have wondered if they are one and same or completely different organizations.  The more I think about it, I don't think there is or ever was a Circle.  I think it's just a term Vitto Malvora created and used to sell his plan to Madrigal Raith.  We know, from both Vitto's conversation with Cowl and the final battle in the Raith's Deeps that there wasn't another active partner other than Nemesis.  I think it's easier to sell the idea of a powerful group working together than one rogue necromancer and an entity from beyond the Outer Gates that most people in the magical world had never heard of.  Also, Vitto told Cowl he could dispose of Madrigal if he needed to.  I suspect Madrigal Raith was sold the idea he could become a player in a grand conspiracy, but one of the primary reasons he was recruited was he could be made into the patsy for all of the murders Vitto and Madrigal carried out.  Yuillegan suggested that Harry liked the idea of the Circle because it fit nicely with his concept of a Black Council, and I think that is the correct conclusion to draw.  Now to get back to the Morgan.

Avernite asked an interesting question about Margaret LeFay.   "Was she a double-agent that fooled even the Blackstaff into thinking she had half-turned, when she was undercover for the most hard-bitten part of the Wardens?"  At first I dismissed this idea, but the more I think about, the more plausible it sounds to me.  In Blood Rites, Ebenezer told Harry that Margaret "was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had... unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."

So if Harry's mom was really guilty of these crimes, how did she escape from Morgan and how could she expect him to protect her unborn child if she was going to run away and hide?  What? Morgan said, "I'll let you go for now, but contact me after the child is born."  Does that sound plausible to you?  I think it's more likely that Margaret said to Morgan something like this; "I did the job, I found what and who you were looking for, now I need you to do something for me."  There's more going on than we have been told.  No matter what the actual story is, it also means Luccio was holding out on Harry when he asked her about his mother.

One of the issues that several people have brought up is about Rashid the Gatekeeper and who knew what about his actual role.  Jim has said that collectively the Senior Council knows a lot about Harry, but because "knowledge is power" and the general culture of paranoia they operate under, they don't share more information with each other than they think they need to.  The way I see it, perhaps one or two Senior Council member know that Winter keeps the Outsiders outside our reality, and knows that Nemesis is the directing mind or force behind the Outsiders, but does not know that Rashid plays any part in it at all.  This individual might think "Gatekeeper" is an archaic term which doesn't apply to the Outer Gates.  How many of them besides the Gatekeeeper would have ever been to the Outer Gates?  My guess is between zero and one.  Another Senior Council member might know that the Gatekeeper is involved with keeping the Outsiders at bay, but only knows that he sometimes directs Winter's conventional forces and has no clue about Rashid's Nemesis infection scanning ability or that of the Outer Gates itself is a nemfection scanning tool.  My guess is that no one on the Senior Council knows about that Rashid's scanning ability.

Now this is just a WAG, but my guess is the Senior Council member least likely to be the clued in; other than Cristos, who we don't have enough information about to make a judgement call on, is Ebenezer McCoy.  It's not just because after Cristos, Eb has the least amount of time on the Senior Council.  I don't think you tell the Blackstaff everything.  In the White Council tradition you compartmentalize and only tell that person what they need to know to do their job.  Before he joined the Senior Council, and when he wasn't acting as the White Council's wetwork's man, Eb was living in his home in the Ozarks.  Other than bits and pieces of information he would have picked up doing his less than savory work for the Council, I don't think Eb would have been in a position to learn very much about Nemesis.  That's also a reason that if Margaret was acting as some kind of double agent, Ebenezer wouldn't have known about it. 

So no one shares information unless forced to do so, and everyone who knows about Nemesis is afraid that talk openly about it lest they make themselves a target.  (Except Harry of course, who told nemfected Cat Sith he knew what was really going on and even had a short conversation with the underlying personality, which was probably Nemesis itself.  Great job Harry.)  So Mira, I don't think we shouldn't be too surprised if Morgan; and by extension Luccio, only know part of the story.  Knowing about Nemesis doesn't mean the people who are clued in have all the information.  Rashid certainly isn't going to offer up any information, unless like Harry, they show up at the Outer Gates.

One more thing.  Morgan says, "But the enemy has invaded the Senior Council itself."  But Morgan didn't know about Peabody.  Perhaps he picked up that the Senior Council members weren't acting as they normally did and he drew the wrong conclusion, that one of the Senior Council members was nemfected and doing something to the others.

One of the things I'd like to know is who is now in possession of Morgan's journal?  Morgan was found by a team of wardens led  by Thorsen, who Harry refers to as the Swede.  Perhaps they gave it to Captain Luccio or perhaps the first Senior Council member on the scene saw it and demanded they turn it over to him or her. 




Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 08, 2020, 05:04:20 AM
Margaret wasn't running away to hide.  She was a dead wizard walking.  And she knew it. That much is in the text.  As the how to safely meet someone who wants bad things for you, you meet them on the National Mall where they will be seen if they act.

Whatever Margaret knew it was valuable.  Somebody was shielding her from Raith. Even if she was a deep cover agent of some type she still had to buy off her protector. Short of living her life in a circle, the only ones able to shield her that we are aware of were the Fae. The same way Morgan was shielded.  And whoever did do it, did it for two years.  Her stay alive card expired on October 31 when Harry was born. 

That fact might lead you to believe that Harry was the price.  Morgan isn't complaining that Harry was born.  He bitching because Justin got in first.  But there is another point implied.  That Margaret had another thing so valuable it convinced Lea to protect her and then Harry. And this is pure speculation.  Margaret knew who had the Atheme. Picture this, Lea doing a happy dance, and spending he next 25 years coming up with the price.

As an aside, the Senior Council knows about Outsiders. But that doesn't imply that they knew about Nemesis. But if the don't Cowl was right. And there is no reason to believe that the broader White Council is aware of Outsiders at all.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 08, 2020, 07:09:12 AM
Margaret wasn't running away to hide.  She was a dead wizard walking.  And she knew it. That much is in the text.  As the how to safely meet someone who wants bad things for you, you meet them on the National Mall where they will be seen if they act.

Whatever Margaret knew it was valuable.  Somebody was shielding her from Raith. Even if she was a deep cover agent of some type she still had to buy off her protector. Short of living her life in a circle, the only ones able to shield her that we are aware of were the Fae. The same way Morgan was shielded.  And whoever did do it, did it for two years.  Her stay alive card expired on October 31 when Harry was born. 

That fact might lead you to believe that Harry was the price.  Morgan isn't complaining that Harry was born.  He bitching because Justin got in first.  But there is another point implied.  That Margaret had another thing so valuable it convinced Lea to protect her and then Harry. And this is pure speculation.  Margaret knew who had the Atheme. Picture this, Lea doing a happy dance, and spending he next 25 years coming up with the price.

As an aside, the Senior Council knows about Outsiders. But that doesn't imply that they knew about Nemesis. But if the don't Cowl was right. And there is no reason to believe that the broader White Council is aware of Outsiders at all.

Just a thing. I agree Maggie knew she was going to die when Harry was born. I always believed it was because she made the deal with Lea with Harry on her womb, so Lea's protection to Harry will necessarily protect her. I am not saying she did the deal for that, no. I mean that as a side effect of her deal with Lea and her own plans to have Harry born on Halloween, she was able to knew the date of her own demise.

But Morgan is not talking about what happened when Harry was born. He is speaking about what happened when Malcolm died. That is when Morgan missed his chance to take care of him because he was on a mission, Harry went to the foster system and only THEN Justin appeared.

@KurtisStGeorge, about who has Harry journal: I repeat
Quote
Another thing about the location. Wouldn't it be fun if Morgan had a magical way to write in his journal from a distance, perhaps even mentally? And that would appear written in a physical book stored in another place? It would be like uploading something to the Cloud for instant synchronization.
If something like that was possible for a wizard, the journal could be in some safe place, that perhaps Morgan knew Luccio knew. It's just an idea.
@BadAlias: it's ok  :)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on February 08, 2020, 08:07:31 AM
Margaret wasn't running away to hide.  She was a dead wizard walking.  And she knew it. That much is in the text.  As the how to safely meet someone who wants bad things for you, you meet them on the National Mall where they will be seen if they act.

Whatever Margaret knew it was valuable.  Somebody was shielding her from Raith. Even if she was a deep cover agent of some type she still had to buy off her protector. Short of living her life in a circle, the only ones able to shield her that we are aware of were the Fae. The same way Morgan was shielded.  And whoever did do it, did it for two years.  Her stay alive card expired on October 31 when Harry was born. 

That fact might lead you to believe that Harry was the price.  Morgan isn't complaining that Harry was born.  He bitching because Justin got in first.  But there is another point implied.  That Margaret had another thing so valuable it convinced Lea to protect her and then Harry. And this is pure speculation.  Margaret knew who had the Atheme. Picture this, Lea doing a happy dance, and spending he next 25 years coming up with the price.

As an aside, the Senior Council knows about Outsiders. But that doesn't imply that they knew about Nemesis. But if the don't Cowl was right. And there is no reason to believe that the broader White Council is aware of Outsiders at all.

You missed my point.  I'm just saying the Margaret LeFay/double agent scenario is a plausible explanation; at least for the present.  Creating a scenario where Margaret LeFay sets a heavily populated public location as a meeting place with Morgan in order to curb his enthusiasm for taking quick and direct action is clever idea.  However, something like that isn't a hinted at in the text.  More importantly there are a few details it leaves out.  How would she contact Morgan in the first place?  Neither of them can use cell phones or email.  OK, there's snail mail if Morgan kept a normal property somewhere, but Margaret would have to know that address.  I'm sure you can think of some way she might send him a message, but how does she make sure no one else learns about it?  Morgan might give his word that he would take no action until he heard what Margaret had to say, but that leaves everyone else on the White Council free to act and then there are her enemies to consider.  Margaret and Morgan having a prearranged meeting place because they are already working together makes just as much sense.  Again, at least in the absence of more complete information.

I didn't address Justin for a couple of reasons.  First, because I didn't think there was anything interesting for me to say that wasn't already said by someone else.  Well, maybe one thing, now that I think of it.  (Though it's a minor thing really.)  Both Ebenezer and Morgan despised Justin DuMorne.  Ebenezer calls him, "that a son of a bitch DuMorne" and Morgan says "That bastard Justin DuMorne."  In both cases what we aren't told is when Ebenezer and Morgan came to think of Justin in those terms.  Because Jim has cleverly withheld pertinent information from us, it's possible both men only came to hate Justin after they discovered he had betrayed the Council and legally kidnapped Harry.

The second reason.  I forgot what what it was.  I'm sure it was nothing worth discussing anyway.  I'll just add that Morgan not knowing what was more disturbing, Justin faking his own death or a 16 year old Harry actually killing Justin in a duel was a nice touch by Jim.  I wonder if Jim put that in to get back at everyone who ever thought they were being clever by asking him if Justin was really dead, because Jim appeared to get really annoyed by that question being asked one too many times.  I can see Jim saying to himself, "This will make them think they were right all along until I pull the rug out from under them when I do a real flashback scene and show that Harry really did flame broil Justin."

Finally, Justin having a magical way of transcribing a journal that Luccio web be likely to find.  It's not a bad idea, but I wish there was something in any of the novels or short stories that were at least similar in nature to this.  The closest is Harry's note to Ivy in Small Favor, but that doesn't work for Luccio.  An old fashion physical dead letter drop that Luccio knew about might make more sense.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 08, 2020, 10:03:43 AM
Finally, Justin having a magical way of transcribing a journal that Luccio web be likely to find.  It's not a bad idea, but I wish there was something in any of the novels or short stories that were at least similar in nature to this.  The closest is Harry's note to Ivy in Small Favor, but that doesn't work for Luccio.  An old fashion physical dead letter drop that Luccio knew about might make more sense.

The thing that makes me against the last idea is that this is not a letter. He explicitly writes it as an entry of a journal. I've had a journal when I was a child, long before computers were in every home. I would have never thought in taking a piece of paper and just write something as if I was writing in my physical journal. It would be...wrong. Whatever you want in your journal, well, you wrote it in your actual journal, not in random papers.

So when I was reading the microfiction I thought Morgan was writing in a book. But then, it is weird that he has with him a book that he has not used since his seventies (long ago). So I imagined that perhaps he was writing it at distance, somehow. But now I reread the microfiction and Morgan mentioned he has been reading the last entries. So, he has access to the full content of his journal, and is able to add an entry, and hopes that Luccio will find it (but somehow, apparently, he does not thinks their enemies will). So I am guessing that perhaps he has the book with him all the time, but it is protected for some sort of magical seal, something Morgan believes Luccio will be able to access (I don't know if because she is her personal friend or because she is the Captain of the Wardens, but it is the same for him). Another (similar) option is that he has a sort of bag of holding, so he is not always physically carrying the weight of a book but can access it when needed. And again, perhaps there is a magical password or lock that Morgan thinks Luccio knows or will find (but not his enemies). What do you think?

I
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 08, 2020, 11:45:25 AM
It starts getting obvious now.

Nemesis is on a need to know basis. That means most of the council and parts of the senior council don't know and even those who know often have only a superficial knowledge.

That was what the gatekeeper confirmed and interestingly he knew Margaret. Lea also knew Margaret. And now Morgan was involved too.

At a certain moment Margaret was shown around and was explained exactly how dangerous the outsiders were. That was because she was a necessary ingredient for creating a weapon against them. She needed to know. She agreed because she was convinced it was necessary. She made the best deals she could.

So Harry was born.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 08, 2020, 12:55:43 PM
I would love it if all pertinent data were included in the text, but Jim won't confine himself to that, so how can we. The official timeline puts her in the middle of the National Mall in DC just prior to her death.  And there is a reference to a way to contact Morgan and set a meeting place.  It's called  a telephone. Harry uses one to get the Wardens to Demonreach in Turn Coat. All the rest is a common trope , come alone, yada yada yada..... And in that era land lines were common, including phone booths.

In terms of where Morgan had his Journal, the easiest  guess is that it was in his bolthole.  That he has one is implied in Turn Coat when he is hiding in Harry's.  And it's where he go to think about his next step, which is what he writes in the journal.

And I just hate the possibilities implied by the spy counterspy thing.  It's plausible though.  Peabody was exactly that, a deep cover agent, so the idea has support in the text.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 08, 2020, 01:12:58 PM
Quote

At a certain moment Margaret was shown around and was explained exactly how dangerous the outsiders were. That was because she was a necessary ingredient for creating a weapon against them. She needed to know. She agreed because she was convinced it was necessary. She made the best deals she could.

I doubt she got her information from the Council though.   She roamed The Ways, one of her best
buds was second only to Mab in the Winter Court,  her and Rashid compared notes.  I wouldn't be
surprised if it was from Lea and Mab that she got her information about Nemesis and that is what
she and Rashid compared notes about, since he is the first line of defense apparently.   

I sense a certain amount of contempt for the Council on Rashid's part, and the whole "need to know"
thing pisses him off to a certain degree.  It might be the source of Margaret's original anger with the
Council,  not unlike the anger and frustration people in high security chain of command feel when something is need to know and it is determined that they don't need to know it.  Yeah, it may keep
some things secret but it can also get people killed.   But I can see Margaret angry over how the Council was dealing with the Enemy, rebelling and falling in with the wrong people which sent her
down the wrong path for a number of years.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 08, 2020, 02:41:30 PM
I doubt she got her information from the Council though.   She roamed The Ways, one of her best
buds was second only to Mab in the Winter Court,  her and Rashid compared notes.  I wouldn't be
surprised if it was from Lea and Mab that she got her information about Nemesis and that is what
she and Rashid compared notes about, since he is the first line of defense apparently.   

I sense a certain amount of contempt for the Council on Rashid's part, and the whole "need to know"
thing pisses him off to a certain degree.  It might be the source of Margaret's original anger with the
Council,  not unlike the anger and frustration people in high security chain of command feel when something is need to know and it is determined that they don't need to know it.  Yeah, it may keep
some things secret but it can also get people killed.   But I can see Margaret angry over how the Council was dealing with the Enemy, rebelling and falling in with the wrong people which sent her
down the wrong path for a number of years.
Almost certainly not the council. They probably, with the exception of the gatekeeper, don’t know enough and are not in the position to show it so convincingly that Margaret decided to prepare her child for the fight that had to come.

It was Lea who showed her around. She might have told her about the conditions for getting a Starborn child. I can not imagine any council member telling her even if they knew.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 08, 2020, 04:13:53 PM
Almost certainly not the council. They probably, with the exception of the gatekeeper, don’t know enough and are not in the position to show it so convincingly that Margaret decided to prepare her child for the fight that had to come.

It was Lea who showed her around. She might have told her about the conditions for getting a Starborn child. I can not imagine any council member telling her even if they knew.

  But can you feel her frustration knowing what she knew and here was the Council as far as she
knew, ignorant of the danger they all face? 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 08, 2020, 05:38:00 PM
  But can you feel her frustration knowing what she knew and here was the Council as far as she
knew, ignorant of the danger they all face?
It explains her involvement with the Sidhe. They are doing something to protect this reality.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 08, 2020, 05:58:48 PM
It explains her involvement with the Sidhe. They are doing something to protect this reality.

  Indeed it does, also her closeness with Rashid, it wasn't just because he is good friends with Eb.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 09, 2020, 12:18:15 AM
...  I think it's just a term Vitto Malvora created and used to sell his plan to Madrigal Raith.  We know, from both Vitto's conversation with Cowl and the final battle in the Raith's Deeps that there wasn't another active partner other than Nemesis.  I think it's easier to sell the idea of a powerful group working together ...
While I agree that it could be made-up, and in some ways the "shadowy organization" is more threatening than a rogue wizard and a few-people-know-of-it otherworldly entity, I'm pretty sure that both Madrigal and Vittorio believed -- if it was invented, it was invented by Cowl, and sold to Vitto-the-dupe.  I don't have my books available to check, but I thought Cowl and Vitto discussed it in the hide-out where Harry tracked Vitto via the paint-fleck...?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 09, 2020, 12:57:15 AM
I have mine.
Quote from: White Knight
"My lord," Grey Cloak said, bowing his head. He left it that way;
There was a long moment of silence before Cowl spoke. Then he said, "You have failed."
"I have not yet succeeded," Grey Cloak replied with polite disagreement. "The curtain has not fallen."
"And the fool with you?"
"Still ignorant, my lord. I can preserve or dispose of him as you see fit." Grey Cloak took a deep breath and said, "He has gotten the wizard involved. There is some sort of vendetta between them, it would seem."
The little mist figure made a hissing sound. "The fool. There is not enough profit in Dresden's death to jeopardize the operation."
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 09, 2020, 12:48:35 PM
  Here is another thought Margaret was a spy, which is different from being a double agent.

She didn't play for both sides,  she sacrificed herself to find out the extent of the Enemy's penetration into various institutions and groups. So she went rouge seemingly, even marrying Lord Raith and having a kid by him.   When she found out how bad it had gotten and found the right man[Malcolm] she and Mab, Lea, even Rashid formed a plan, that was for her to conceive a star child.  None of it was random, she just didn't change because she fell in love with a good man, she was never evil in the first place. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 09, 2020, 04:40:15 PM
I seem to remember reading,  and am more inclined to believe it was a WOJ than written in a novel or short story,  but something about Harry saying this kind lady would visit him in the orphanage, and that was Lea.   So if that is true, she checked on him, but as far as protection goes,
we know the Fae have a different view of things.  From Lea's viewpoint Harry going to Justin might have been the best thing in the long term chess game for her Queen and the Winter Court.  I doubt she was interested in Harry growing up with proper moral values.

That's the one I was thinking of, to think it was Lea hiding him. She still had tabs on him, so either Justin hid him but wasn't able to keep Lea away, or Lea hid him but agreed to Justin adopting and training him when his powers manifested.

There was also a WOJ that Lea was perfectly happy with Justin's guardianship over Harry until he crossed a line when Harry was 16 - she's clearly more interested in teaching youths to be dangerous, hardened survivors (witness Molly) than mental or emotional well-being. Whether the line Justin crossed was the enthrallment attempt or the Outsider dealings, I'm not sure.

However you slice it though, Lea and Justin seem to have had some sort of agreement, until Justin broke his end and Lea pointed Harry back at him like a weapon. I just think Lea is more likely to have the ability to shut Morgan's tracking down entirely than another wizard.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 09, 2020, 07:09:44 PM
Quote
However you slice it though, Lea and Justin seem to have had some sort of agreement, until Justin broke his end and Lea pointed Harry back at him like a weapon. I just think Lea is more likely to have the ability to shut Morgan's tracking down entirely than another wizard.

I think that makes the most sense.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 09, 2020, 11:24:12 PM
Maybe following a Rule of Three ... ?
Odin?

Reading Kurtin's section about who knows what about Nemesis and Gatekeeper, I had a thought that Ebeneezer is likely to be one of the most well informed members of the Senior Council on the bigger picture of the magical world. He has the Merlin's journals. I've never really thought about the implications of that, but while Kurtin's right that Eb might be in the dark about more recent events, I don't think Nemesis, Old Ones, the Outergates, Demonreach, Outsiders, etc. are recent events.

The Gatekeeper says the rest of the Council doesn't know as much as they think they do about his and Harry's roles. But as Kurtin points out, Jim has said that they don't share information. Some of the Senior Council probably knows more about their jobs than the Gatekeeper presumes.

But Morgan is not talking about what happened when Harry was born. He is speaking about what happened when Malcolm died. That is when Morgan missed his chance to take care of him because he was on a mission, Harry went to the foster system and only THEN Justin appeared.
...
@BadAlias: it's ok  :)
Justin was a warden at some point. We don't know precisely when he retired, but I'm sure he had connections with the Wardens after he retired. Dina's comment made me consider the possibility that Justin made his move when he knew Morgan wouldn't be around to do anything about it. That's assuming that Justin was directly involved in Malcolm's death and Harry's vanishing.

Thanks, Dina.  :)

Morgan escaped from custody and got to his silver oak leaf. I doubt that he was allowed to keep it on his person while in custody. Morgan could have grabbed a few things when he got to his quarters or home or lair or whatever. Then he traveled the Ways to the Southwest and took a train to Chicago. He could have grabbed his journal and wrote on the train. There is a post office right near Union Station and I found an image of a post office "letter box" in Union Station. I don't know if the letter box is currently serviced or if it's kept for historical purposes. Point is, he could easily have dropped it in the mail at some point.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 09, 2020, 11:38:11 PM
Quote
Morgan escaped from custody and got to his silver oak leaf. I doubt that he was allowed to keep it on his person while in custody. Morgan could have grabbed a few things when he got to his quarters or home or lair or whatever. Then he traveled the Ways to the Southwest and took a train to Chicago. He could have grabbed his journal and wrote on the train. There is a post office right near Union Station and I found an image of a post office "letter box" in Union Station. I don't know if the letter box is currently serviced or if it's kept for historical purposes. Point is, he could easily have dropped it in the mail at some point.

Um, during all of this, you are leaving out that Morgan was wounded pretty badly.  So grabbing his journal and writing in it during a train ride seem a bit far fetched.

Quote

The Gatekeeper says the rest of the Council doesn't know as much as they think they do about his and Harry's roles. But as Kurtin points out, Jim has said that they don't share information. Some of the Senior Council probably knows more about their jobs than the Gatekeeper presumes.

Somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 10, 2020, 02:20:37 AM
The Gatekeeper says the rest of the Council doesn't know as much as they think they do about his and Harry's roles. But as Kurtin points out, Jim has said that they don't share information. Some of the Senior Council probably knows more about their jobs than the Gatekeeper presumes.
Justin was a warden at some point. We don't know precisely when he retired, but I'm sure he had connections with the Wardens after he retired. Dina's comment made me consider the possibility that Justin made his move when he knew Morgan wouldn't be around to do anything about it. That's assuming that Justin was directly involved in Malcolm's death and Harry's vanishing.

Thanks, Dina.  :)

Morgan escaped from custody and got to his silver oak leaf. I doubt that he was allowed to keep it on his person while in custody. Morgan could have grabbed a few things when he got to his quarters or home or lair or whatever. Then he traveled the Ways to the Southwest and took a train to Chicago. He could have grabbed his journal and wrote on the train. There is a post office right near Union Station and I found an image of a post office "letter box" in Union Station. I don't know if the letter box is currently serviced or if it's kept for historical purposes. Point is, he could easily have dropped it in the mail at some point.

I like your idea about Justin (or whoever kill Malcolm) to do it knowing that Morgan was not available. Perhaps they were from the White Council or have agents inside.And thanks for the data about mailboxes, I probably need to rewrite some of TC to see what Morgan says.
And you are welcome  :)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 03:01:56 AM
What happened to Harry implies that the Council wasn't part of the surveillance.   Had it been, Harry would have remained covered even when Morgan wasn't there.  So what Morgan was doing appears to be off the books in so far as the Wardens were concerned.  Justin takes Harry when he manifests, so he was apparently watching as well.  It seems to be pretty straightforward that Morgan and Justin were playing the same game.  When will Harry manifest? And can I grab him first? Otherwise why would he run back to check after his mission?
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Um, during all of this, you are leaving out that Morgan was wounded pretty badly.  So grabbing his journal and writing in it during a train ride seem a bit far fetched.
Yet it appears that he did something of that sort.  He wrote it somewhere, bleeding or not.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 10, 2020, 05:18:38 AM
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Yet it appears that he did something of that sort.  He wrote it somewhere, bleeding or not.

  I know, that is what rings so false to me in the whole micro story.   I  can buy that Morgan kept a journal, but I don't buy the timeline of the entry or it's writing.  I find it a little hard to believe that Morgan, the warden's warden, would be close enough to Margaret to promise to watch her kid.  To begin with, did she know ahead of time that she was going to be killed?  Possible..  The only way I can rationalize her asking Morgan and him agreeing was he knew her role as a spy to get information on the Enemy.  Was he the only one on the Council that knew about Harry's birth?  Goes back to debates we've had before about Eb, he tried to get revenge for Margaret's death, but never followed up on the where his grandson went or what happened to him after his father died.  You'd think if any of this was common knowledge, especially about Nemesis that he'd compared notes with Eb, who had after all done a soul gaze with Harry about his fears that he might be infected. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 11:50:26 AM
  I know, that is what rings so false to me in the whole micro story.   I  can buy that Morgan kept a journal, but I don't buy the timeline of the entry or it's writing.  I find it a little hard to believe that Morgan, the warden's warden, would be close enough to Margaret to promise to watch her kid.  To begin with, did she know ahead of time that she was going to be killed?  Possible..  The only way I can rationalize her asking Morgan and him agreeing was he knew her role as a spy to get information on the Enemy.  Was he the only one on the Council that knew about Harry's birth?  Goes back to debates we've had before about Eb, he tried to get revenge for Margaret's death, but never followed up on the where his grandson went or what happened to him after his father died.  You'd think if any of this was common knowledge, especially about Nemesis that he'd compared notes with Eb, who had after all done a soul gaze with Harry about his fears that he might be infected. 
The story is absolutely neutral with respect to the relationship between Margaret and Morgan.  You needn't assume they were close. Nor do you need to assume she was a spy for the Council or anyone else.  All you have to assume is that Harry's birth was an intentional act.  She set out to produce a Starborn.  And then she shopped him to Morgan.  Harry is a weapon and Morgan's fear is about who will wield him.

Here are what I consider to be the two key phrases.
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That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.
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From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
The way I read that is,  since he knew about Harry in the first place, was that he was waiting for exactly the same reason Justin was, i.e. for Harry to manifest. And in the second case that they didn't fear a nemfection until he disappeared. This also implies that the "we" and Morgan knew the nature of a nemfection.  I now assume that the we is the Senior Council.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 10, 2020, 01:59:07 PM
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The story is absolutely neutral with respect to the relationship between Margaret and Morgan.  You needn't assume they were close. Nor do you need to assume she was a spy for the Council or anyone else.  All you have to assume is that Harry's birth was an intentional act.  She set out to produce a Starborn.  And then she shopped him to Morgan.  Harry is a weapon and Morgan's fear is about who will wield him.

No, it is not..  If a mother gives a damn about her baby, you are careful as to whom you ask to look out for it.   Morgan from the time we first meet him till his death doesn't seem like that kind of guy.  Also given what Luccio had said about Margaret, it hard to think that Morgan would think differently about her.   Morgan isn't a deep thinker, he takes orders and carries them out.  I need a lot more information otherwise none of this is logical.
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The way I read that is,  since he knew about Harry in the first place, was that he was waiting for exactly the same reason Justin was, i.e. for Harry to manifest. And in the second case that they didn't fear a nemfection until he disappeared. This also implies that the "we" and Morgan knew the nature of a nemfection.  I now assume that the we is the Senior Council.

Now you are making assumptions..  What do you mean by manifest?   The other side of the coin is, Justin kept the kids secret from the Council, but more to the point he kept the Council secret from the kids!  Harry had no clue that the Council existed until he was arrested..  Morgan doesn't question why that is.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 02:23:45 PM
I'll point out that Jim has Margaret run and leave Thomas to become a vampire.  Not exactly a paragon of motherhood as I define it.

Manifest.  Come into his magic.

Obviously Jim is retconning Morgan to pump up interest in Peace Talks.  There is a clash with existing canon, where Morgan was a grade A bastard with a God complex.  If this was always Jim's plan then he has done what he has always done, to use the first person narrative of Harry to make us look in the wrong direction. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 10, 2020, 03:52:08 PM
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I'll point out that Jim has Margaret run and leave Thomas to become a vampire.  Not exactly a paragon of motherhood as I define it.

True as far as that goes, however we have no idea of how much of a choice she had in the matter.  The fact that Thomas doesn't seem to hold a grudge against her for this is perhaps a clue that she
didn't have a huge choice.  Lord Raith may have killed him along with her if she had taken him.

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Manifest.  Come into his magic.

Harry came into his talent at the age of ten..  What he got once Justin adopted him he got training.. 
So if the infection supposedly showed itself or not when his magic showed up, there is no debate..
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The way I read that is,  since he knew about Harry in the first place, was that he was waiting for exactly the same reason Justin was, i.e. for Harry to manifest. And in the second case that they didn't fear a nemfection until he disappeared. This also implies that the "we" and Morgan knew the nature of a nemfection.  I now assume that the we is the Senior Council.

I seriously doubt that Morgan couldn't track Harry once Justin adopted him.  The wardens were jolly on the spot when he killed Justin.. So they knew where Justin lived, I presume he may have even gotten retirement pay, if they knew that they had to have known about Harry and Elaine.. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: toodeep on February 10, 2020, 04:18:45 PM
Others have raised as part of this thread about how winter, and really everyone, has been "forging" Harry to be able to deal with temptation and be strong willed.  It made me think about what we learned about winter, "you are always vulnerable to yourself."  What if, to do what Harry needs to do, Harry needs to be infected with Nemesis at the end, and overcome it?  Essentially, become Nfected so that he then has some connection with Nemesis everywhere (rather than just the Nfected shell in front of him) and then use that connection and his starborne nature and his forged will, to order Nemesis out of reality.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 04:41:42 PM
@Mira
You may read that as Justin was the danger in terms of there being a nemfection, not something inherent in Harry. This quote is fairly self explanatory.
Quote from: Juornal
That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.

From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.
Quote from: Mira
I seriously doubt that Morgan couldn't track Harry once Justin adopted him.
Morgan tells you he couldn't.  Make what you want of that.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 10, 2020, 05:51:22 PM
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You may read that as Justin was the danger in terms of there being a nemfection, not something inherent in Harry. This quote is fairly self explanatory.

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    That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.

That sounds like an excuse.. Why call Justin a "bastard?"  Even after Harry killed him he was held in
pretty high regard, so is that after the fact?  Not sure if he is saying that Justin is a source of the infection or what?  When did he know that Justin got him?  Why didn't the wardens do a raid then and take a very young Harry and Elaine away..
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Morgan tells you he couldn't.  Make what you want of that.

That is the bit that doesn't make any sense to me..  There are records when there are adoptions.. Harry and Elaine went to public school for crap sake..  During the time when Malcolm was alive maybe harder, they moved around a lot, but in the orphanage and after adoption?  Not so clear.  And is he now saying it is a given that Justin was a part in the infections?  Successful with Elaine but not Harry?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: SerScot on February 10, 2020, 05:59:09 PM
SoA,

Holy Cow!!!

Talk about revelatory...  I don't even know where to begin.

I love how it's straightforward, blunt, and right to the point. Very Morgan.

I agree it’s huge.  It also cements for me that Maggie Sr. Is not “Black Council”.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 10, 2020, 06:01:50 PM
@toodeep, I will be pleased if you are right.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 10, 2020, 06:52:53 PM
Um, during all of this, you are leaving out that Morgan was wounded pretty badly.  So grabbing his journal and writing in it during a train ride seem a bit far fetched.

Somehow I doubt it.
He wrote in it some point after escaping and while losing blood. "I am losing blood." Sitting on a train seems like the best time we know of. I doubt it was while he was moving around.

I doubt that Rashid knows what all the other members of the Senior Council know.

There are records when there are adoptions.. Harry and Elaine went to public school for crap sake..  During the time when Malcolm was alive maybe harder, they moved around a lot, but in the orphanage and after adoption?
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I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically.
There were no records by the time Morgan got there. Also, adoption records are sealed. In the mid 80's, when Harry would have been adopted, such records would have likely been stored for the long term on microfiche or a similar system a powerful wizard probably couldn't access, so Morgan couldn't have even stolen them and Justin could have easily destroyed them. If they hadn't been converted yet, paper is easy to burn.

No, it is not..  If a mother gives a damn about her baby, you are careful as to whom you ask to look out for it.
Margaret does apologize for what she's done to Harry in the SoulGaze with Thomas. And Morgan is probably a pretty good choice for a protector. Morgan promised to protect Harry. We don't know that he promised to raise Harry if something happened to Malcolm. Margaret also choose Lea to protect Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 07:55:48 PM
@Mira
Not much of this is new.  Lea tells you in Ghost Story that Harry was being taught to kill with magic.
Quote from: Ghost Story
Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.
Martha Liberty tells you in Summer Knight when speaking to Eb that the Senior Council is afraid of Harry.
Quote from: Summer Knight
Martha shook her head. "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."
The only things new in the journal are that Morgan knew Margaret on some level and that he was watching Harry while he was still with his father in an effort to protect him, and that he was aware of Nemesis and Eb's relation to Harry. And quite frankly everybody and his brother seems to know that Eb is the Blackstaff and that Harry is his grandson.



 



Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 10, 2020, 08:14:47 PM
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The only things new in the journal are that Morgan knew Margaret on some level and that he was watching Harry while he was still with his father in an effort to protect him, and that he was aware of Nemesis and Eb's relation to Harry. And quite frankly everybody and his brother seems to know that Eb is the Blackstaff and that Harry is his grandson.

Which is really weird for a couple of reasons, 1] both facts came as a huge shock to Harry.  He and Eb soul gazed so either Eb was great at hiding it or sixteen year old Harry just didn't know what he was seeing. 2] You'd think that someone would either object to Eb defending his grandson, or it would come out in the trial that Harry was his grandson..  One thing more somewhere in the books I believe it had been clearly stated more than once that all but Eb's inner circle had no clue that Margaret was Eb's daughter.
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Martha Liberty tells you in Summer Knight when speaking to Eb that the Senior Council is afraid of Harry
Yes, but many think Harry is still a warlock and they also fear he was like his mother.  No mention of the Enemy.. 
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Not much of this is new.  Lea tells you in Ghost Story that Harry was being taught to kill with magic.
No, not really, she says he was being trained as an "enforcer."   If Harry had been trained to kill he wouldn't have needed to go to Lea to get a "confidence boost" before he returned to Justin.  Also instead of running he could have tried to kill Justin on the spot instead of run when Justin tried to get him into a straight jacket.  Harry got lucky with HWWB..  So while Justin was tough on him, I don't think he got to the killing part yet.  Partly I think in self defense, he didn't want his pair of hand grenades to blow up on him.   I do think once he got them both enthralled the killing by magic part would have been taught.  But then again, to what purpose?  Because if either did kill by magic the wardens would have swarmed pretty quickly as they did when Harry did kill Justin.  Which begs another question, if they didn't have Justin's little family under surveillance, how did they get there so quickly?
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Margaret does apologize for what she's done to Harry in the SoulGaze with Thomas

She is talking about the burden of his birth, Malcolm also apologizes when Harry has his dream/vision of him.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: SerScot on February 10, 2020, 08:28:15 PM
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Also excellent pick up on the Washington D.C. detail. That was definitely a hint for keen observers. I wonder what is in D.C. that Margaret Le Fay hid or did? I am sure it wasn't mere sight-seeing with Malcolm. Too coincidental in my opinion, especially considering that is where the Library of Congress is (which if you remember, is the home of the vanilla mortal authorities charged with fighting the supernatural by the U.S.A).

Where is the DC tidbit from?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 10, 2020, 10:13:32 PM
The (by Priscellie) timeline. (https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline)  I speculated that it could a place where Margaret could have met Morgan safely.
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26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
If not that then something.  It sticks out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: SerScot on February 10, 2020, 10:47:01 PM
The (by Priscellie) timeline. (https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline)  I speculated that it could a place where Margaret could have met Morgan safely.If not that then something.  It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Thank you.  I think, now, it is a reference to a photo in one of the earlier books.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Con on February 11, 2020, 10:02:19 AM
*siigh* I have the same reaction I had when everybody including JK Rowling and Harry Potter forgave Snape for being a prick.

Not willing to forgive him so easily.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 11, 2020, 01:16:50 PM
Agree
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 11, 2020, 03:11:01 PM
Agree

  I also agree, that is why I have real problems with this effort to rehab Morgan.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 11, 2020, 04:56:54 PM
if they didn't have Justin's little family under surveillance, how did they get there so quickly?
...
She is talking about the burden of his birth, Malcolm also apologizes when Harry has his dream/vision of him.
Because whatever he was doing to hide them ended when he died. Either because he died or the spell burned up in the fire. That's my guess.

Mira, do you mean being born at all, the circumstances of his birth, or him being a starborn? Anyway, here is the quote: "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone." What is Harry's burden? Would Harry have been alone if she hadn't died, stated another way, is this a "to be ring bearer is to be alone" situation? If she had chosen better protectors, would Harry still be alone? That's all up for debate because we can only guess as to what she's talking about or what a starborn is beyond rare and having power of Outsiders.

Snape was a prick because he hated James. Morgan was a prick because he had to determine if Harry was a destroyer before killing him. This honestly makes Morgan make more sense. Morgan didn't want to execute Molly. He was never as hardcore as Harry thought he was. And Morgan probably came to truly dislike Harry because Harry can be a real smart ass.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 11, 2020, 05:00:24 PM
*siigh* I have the same reaction I had when everybody including JK Rowling and Harry Potter forgave Snape for being a prick.

Not willing to forgive him so easily.
  I also agree, that is why I have real problems with this effort to rehab Morgan.

I don't see this as "forgiveness" or "rehab."  Insofar as that happened -- or didn't -- I think that was several books ago.

Harry came to see Morgan as more like a burnt-out cop, still "Fighting the Good Fight" but having lost too many individual battles, seen too many tragedies and horrors.  Morgan diverted from Necromancer-hunting to rescue the kids.  When Harry and Eb were discussing the Grey Council, and who to recruit, Harry spoke quite firmly that Morgan wasn't a Black Hat; e didn't think Morgan could be trusted, but only because he thought Morgan himself was too trusting, and would blab about GC to the Merlin and others.

I hope y'all savor the irony, there:  he thought Morgan was too trusting.

Go ahead...

Let that roll around on your palate, so the flavors develop:  hardcase Donald Morgan, too trusting...

===

But no, there's no "rehab" in that piece.  Morgan kept pushing and pushing on Harry, trying to stress-test him to the breaking point.  The problem with that strategy is that it never stops.  You can be impressed that he suffered <X> tribulation, but still not trust him enough, so you subject him to even-worse <Y>.  Then Z.  But you can't yet be CERTAIN, of course, so you go to Alpha/Beta/Gamma/etc, and then one of the Aramaic alphabets, or Cyrilic, and so on.

You can never be sure, so the "testing" and the torments never stop.

Just in case.

Not seein' the rehab there...
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 11, 2020, 05:31:42 PM
Morgan, who thought he might "have become paranoid and mad," is too trusting in Harry's opinion.

If there is rehab in this story, there was rehab in almost every story in which Morgan appears. In Storm Front, he saves Harry from death and the Doom. In Dead Beat, Harry realizes Morgan doesn't hate him, he's just seen too much, and Harry wonders if he'll end up the same. In Proven Guilty, Morgan is sickened and hesitant in having to execute Molly. In Turn Coat, Morgan admits he was wrong about Harry and never turns Molly in.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: noblehunter on February 11, 2020, 06:05:36 PM
There's a difference between forgiveness and offering empathy and compassion. The narrative has been pushing empathy for Morgan fairly hard (probably to make his death more of a tragedy). It asks the readers to understand Morgan and why he acted as he did. I don't think it asks us to forgive him.

There are characters I've felt empathy for who've behaved worse than Morgan. All that means is I respect and understand the protagonist's choice not to the person flogged to the river and thrown in. I'm still not going to forgive him, though I will hate the author of that particular conflict a little bit more.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 12, 2020, 06:34:34 AM
Morgan, who thought he might "have become paranoid and mad," is too trusting in Harry's opinion.

If there is rehab in this story, there was rehab in almost every story in which Morgan appears. In Storm Front, he saves Harry from death and the Doom. In Dead Beat, Harry realizes Morgan doesn't hate him, he's just seen too much, and Harry wonders if he'll end up the same. In Proven Guilty, Morgan is sickened and hesitant in having to execute Molly. In Turn Coat, Morgan admits he was wrong about Harry and never turns Molly in.

Yeah,  the vibe I got when Morgan saved Harry in Storm Front, is he is a good cop.  There was  nothing personal about it,  he realized that Harry wasn't behind the 3 Eyed business and the murders after all.  He wasn't going to just let him die. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 12, 2020, 10:41:04 AM
Yeah, the main feeling that I find invoked with regards to Morgan and his role in the later parts of the story is pity, not forgiveness.

Pity for a man that I think was probably once Noble and Good, but had fought too long and too hard against too many awful things, made too many compromises in the name of what was 'right' and found himself twisted and embittered by them. He is sympathetic, and pitiable, because imho he's a potential endpoint to the path that Harry has placed himself on.

He is also, however, a massive butthole.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 12, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
Yeah, the main feeling that I find invoked with regards to Morgan and his role in the later parts of the story is pity, not forgiveness.

Pity for a man that I think was probably once Noble and Good, but had fought too long and too hard against too many awful things, made too many compromises in the name of what was 'right' and found himself twisted and embittered by them. He is sympathetic, and pitiable, because imho he's a potential endpoint to the path that Harry has placed himself on.

He is also, however, a massive butthole.

I think that just about sums it up...  In fairness to him, not always easy to follow the Law, to be the executioner.   If one questions one cannot do that year after year, yet he carried on.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Gigglestomp on February 12, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
I just had a little jolt of a thought I haven't been able to fully flesh out yet. But there have been a few times in the story where someone or something has done something unexplained in the background that was glossed over because of pressing matters. Now we have to go back and review - which if any of these things could be attributed to Donald Morgan looking out for Harry in the mortal world the way that Lea does in faerie?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 12, 2020, 06:22:05 PM
One thing more somewhere in the books I believe it had been clearly stated more than once that all but Eb's inner circle had no clue that Margaret was Eb's daughter.
Much as the rest of the stories make Morgan a large Merlin-loyalist (and we know Eb and the Merlin are not good friends), we also know Eb was Captain of the Wardens which he passed (no known intermediate) to Luccio. And Morgan was clearly also a Luccio loyalist.

So could Luccio and Morgan have been close enough to Eb's circle? We know the Senior Council has pro-Merlin, pro-Eb, and pro-others trends, but some people there also seem to skirt the line between Eb and the Merlin...

Of course it may also just be Margaret who got Morgan to promise to protect Harry by going 'Look I know you hate me, but you respect Captain Ebenezar, and that kid is his grandson too!'.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 12, 2020, 07:02:56 PM
I just had a little jolt of a thought I haven't been able to fully flesh out yet. But there have been a few times in the story where someone or something has done something unexplained in the background that was glossed over because of pressing matters. Now we have to go back and review - which if any of these things could be attributed to Donald Morgan looking out for Harry in the mortal world the way that Lea does in faerie?

Interesting...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 12, 2020, 07:05:06 PM
Of course it may also just be Margaret who got Morgan to promise to protect Harry by going 'Look I know you hate me, but you respect Captain Ebenezar, and that kid is his grandson too!'.
Or Margaret told Morgan this and told him what might be possible if the child survived.
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"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth—because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump: 1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
Which gives rise to this quote.
Quote
Martha shook her head. "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."
And the first quote closes with this.
Quote
After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Lasciel—Lash, rather—nodded once and said, "I will tell you all that I can, Harry."
Say hello Bonea. In any case Morgan may have known what Harry represented because he met with Margaret and she extracted the promise as the price for revealing what  Harry's role was to be.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 13, 2020, 05:26:53 AM
I just had a little jolt of a thought I haven't been able to fully flesh out yet. But there have been a few times in the story where someone or something has done something unexplained in the background that was glossed over because of pressing matters. Now we have to go back and review - which if any of these things could be attributed to Donald Morgan looking out for Harry in the mortal world the way that Lea does in faerie?

The main thing is seeing that he doesn't slip into warlockhood. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 13, 2020, 05:10:44 PM
@Gigglestomp: I guess we have another candidate for Proven Guilty shenanigans. I don't think that's correct, but some of the theories are already pretty far out there.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on February 13, 2020, 09:07:15 PM
So I've been slowly reading this thread when I have the time over the past few days. I think I'm reading a few bits of the story differently than some (maybe all) of you.

First, I want to say that I think this is the best short story Jim's written so far, if for no other reason than I don't think any other story upended so much of the existing plot in such a small space. Maybe Thomas's bit about the Oblivion War, but even that doesn't alter my view of Thomas as much as this messes with my view of Morgan.

One very important part where I think my reading is different from many of you:

Quote
Malcolm died while I was on mission elsewhere. I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically. There was no trace of him, and I searched for years.

That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.

From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.

I read this as indicated the order of events were as follows:

1. Morgan goes away on some kind of job. We don't know what it was, but it's not really important (though maybe Justin arranged for the Big Bad Warden to be elsewhere).
2. Malcolm is murdered (not even really up for debate at this point, in my opinion; too many clues otherwise).
3. Someone absconded with Harry. When he says "someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically," I take it that there was no trace of which orphanage Harry went to. He was shipped off somewhere, and left there for years.
4. Justin adopts him. Morgan's line "That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could" implies, to me, that Morgan thought Justin found him, not necessarily that Justin hid him in the first place. My reading is that Morgan is only commenting on Justin's adoption of Harry, not on Harry's original disappearance.

This final line: "From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis." To me, this only means that Morgan is speaking with hindsight. I don't believe that anyone knew that Justin had adopted Harry OR Elaine, let alone both. I don't think Justin was even really on their radar very much at this point, unless it was as a fugitive.

So I see two possibilities:
1. The White Council and Morgan thought that Justin was just a retired warden chilling out in a mansion somewhere. No real need to keep tabs on him too closely.
2. The White Council and/or Morgan knew that Justin was a bad guy mixed up with Nemesis in some way, and Justin was therefore living in Hiding.

I tend to think it's the second possibility. It would make sense, to me, that Justin caught wind that the White Council had tracked him down, and were closing in on him. I've thought for several years that Justin's indoctrination of Harry and Elaine would've been way more effective without resorting to magic, and that it doesn't really make sense to brute force your way into making a pair of teenagers thralls. Cults do it just fine without magic, and then you've got the benefit of fanaticism. So I think that he found out that the WC was coming for him, and resorted to the brute force method because he'd have to go on the run.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: exartiem on February 13, 2020, 09:15:46 PM
I don't know if this has been asked before.  I don't really have time to look through 9 pages of history.

Morgan said he arrived 10 hours after Harry went into the foster care system.  I was under the impression from other stories that Harry was in an orphanage for several years before Justin adopted him.  Like, Malcolm died when he was six and Justin didn't adopt him until he was 9 or 10.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 13, 2020, 09:20:09 PM
Quote
I tend to think it's the second possibility. It would make sense, to me, that Justin caught wind that the White Council had tracked him down, and were closing in on him. I've thought for several years that Justin's indoctrination of Harry and Elaine would've been way more effective without resorting to magic, and that it doesn't really make sense to brute force your way into making a pair of teenagers thralls. Cults do it just fine without magic, and then you've got the benefit of fanaticism. So I think that he found out that the WC was coming for him, and resorted to the brute force method because he'd have to go on the run.
Quote
Morgan said he arrived 10 hours after Harry went into the foster care system.  I was under the impression from other stories that Harry was in an orphanage for several years before Justin adopted him.  Like, Malcolm died when he was six and Justin didn't adopt him until he was 9 or 10.

Actually I think Harry was closer to twelve for some reason.  But you are right, Harry was in the system for a number of years, talked about the hard time he had with vanilla kids once his powers began to awaken because he was different and had no clue what was happening to him.

Actually it does make sense, for the simple reason that Justin was well aware of how powerful both Elaine and Harry were, plus teenagers are unpredictable and can be rebellious...  He didn't want his future enforcers to turn on him for any reason..  And low and behold one of them did..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on February 13, 2020, 09:22:45 PM
I don't know if this has been asked before.  I don't really have time to look through 9 pages of history.

Morgan said he arrived 10 hours after Harry went into the foster care system.  I was under the impression from other stories that Harry was in an orphanage for several years before Justin adopted him.  Like, Malcolm died when he was six and Justin didn't adopt him until he was 9 or 10.

Yes, you're right. There's a several-year gap between Malcolm's death and Justin's adoption, during which Harry lived at the orphanage.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: exartiem on February 13, 2020, 09:24:58 PM
So that would imply that Morgan's mission took several years or Morgan was napping.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on February 13, 2020, 09:28:35 PM
No, it's that he looked for Harry for years, but couldn't find him. He arrived at the scene of Malcolm's death 10 hours after Malcolm died. Harry was taken without a trace. Morgan couldn't find him for years, though he looked, and didn't see Harry again until after the White Council captured him post-Justin duel.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: exartiem on February 13, 2020, 09:47:00 PM
He said he arrived 10 hours after Harry went into foster care, not 10 hours after Malcolm died.  We just established that there's several years between.

So then this suggests that Morgan knew Justin was looking for Harry, too, and just got to him first.  I wouldn't imagine it would take Morgan 4 years to find Harry.  Justin, yes, if he didn't know Malcolm had been killed.  But if Morgan knew of Malcolm's death within hours then he should have been able to track Harry down by claiming to the cops that he was a friend of Malcolm's.

If Harry disappeared that soon after Malcolm died, then that should have proven to Morgan that it was a murder.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 13, 2020, 11:12:05 PM
Since Malcolm was a single father with no other known family, Harry would have went into care upon Malcolm's death. The passage implies without stating it, that Morgan had a way to track him that was blocked. This because the text calls out three  specific ways he searched. Magically, physically, bureaucratically.

According to the time line Harry was in care for four years.  He manifests his magic at ten and is adopted by Justin shortly thereafter.  There is no text that shows that Justin had contact with Harry prior to his adoption.  Justin appears to have been only an animal trainer.  We have only support for Morgan finding out about Justin after his death.

There are two people to date who have hooks  in the bureaucracy that we are aware of.  Lara and Marcone, but Marcone hadn't yet come to power at that point.  And the White Council as a group.  There is only one group known to be able to shield against searches by magic without a circle. The Fae.  Three young people in the books to date have been manipulated while in care, in some fashion.  Elaine, Harry and Molly.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 13, 2020, 11:35:29 PM
Morgan arrived 10 hours after Harry went into the foster care system. I don't expect Morgan to go into the details of the system of care for orphans, so I'm assuming he just means from the custody of first responders to the child care system. I imagine that could easily take a couple of hours. Justin wasn't a foster father. He adopted Harry. Foster care is generally considered temporary. Adoption is permanent.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 14, 2020, 05:20:12 AM
Morgan arrived 10 hours after Harry went into the foster care system. I don't expect Morgan to go into the details of the system of care for orphans, so I'm assuming he just means from the custody of first responders to the child care system. I imagine that could easily take a couple of hours. Justin wasn't a foster father. He adopted Harry. Foster care is generally considered temporary. Adoption is permanent.

Since Harry was only about six years of age when Malcolm died.. Traumatic for a small child to wake up and discover his daddy cannot, the police I imagine would have arrived first, then the ambulance, he would have been given a teddy bear and handed immediately to child services.  There may have been some attempt to locate immediate family, but there were no emergency contacts for little Harry, so he'd go pretty rapidly into foster care.  While Justin didn't have contact, there was a "nice
lady" who did, and that was Lea.  She'd have the power to wall Harry off, but why?

The thought just came to me that since he was a star child, Lea knew that there were enemy forces out to get him, so she kept him hidden.  However it would be hard to hide the fact when his powers began to awaken.  Why she let Justin have him is anyone's guess, but even she isn't immune to making mistakes.  I doubt she was on Justin's side or knew fully of his intentions otherwise she wouldn't have helped Harry get ready to kill him.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Con on February 14, 2020, 01:33:59 PM
While Justin didn't have contact, there was a "nice
lady" who did, and that was Lea.  She'd have the power to wall Harry off, but why?

The thought just came to me that since he was a star child, Lea knew that there were enemy forces out to get him, so she kept him hidden.  However it would be hard to hide the fact when his powers began to awaken.  Why she let Justin have him is anyone's guess, but even she isn't immune to making mistakes.  I doubt she was on Justin's side or knew fully of his intentions otherwise she wouldn't have helped Harry get ready to kill him.

Lea thinks that Justin was a great teacher, using pain and emotional manipulation to forge him into a weapon. It's kind of her thing.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 14, 2020, 01:40:50 PM
Quote
Lea knew that there were enemy forces out to get him, so she kept him hidden.
Has anybody considered that Lea is enemy forces?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 14, 2020, 02:17:37 PM
Has anybody considered that Lea is enemy forces?

   I have, or I wrote about is a few years back, it was when I did my first reread.  While yes, when
we first meet Lea it is seen though the lens of Harry's extreme paranoia about her, not helped by her
desire to turn him into one of her hounds to keep him "safe."   Having said that, her ambition and thirst for power comes through which ends with her bargaining a Holy Sword for the Knife, which we now know is infected.  The general theory is she was infected by the Knife and was later cured by Mab when she put her on ice.  It was my opinion then that she might have been infected before she came in contact with the Knife.   If she was, it would account for her being okay with Harry going to Justin for his training, then when Harry proved himself by escaping enthrallment, neutralizing HWWB, Justin could be discarded.... So she then supposedly helped Harry eliminate him, what she did was trick an inexperienced sixteen year old kid into a bargain.   We find out later that she did little to aid Harry except perhaps a "confidence boost" as Jim puts it, but it makes Harry obligated to her with the hope of later making use of him.  All this plays into the Enemy's hands, except Mab had other plans.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: noblehunter on February 14, 2020, 02:47:02 PM
   I have, or I wrote about is a few years back, it was when I did my first reread.  While yes, when
we first meet Lea it is seen though the lens of Harry's extreme paranoia about her, not helped by her
desire to turn him into one of her hounds to keep him "safe."   Having said that, her ambition and thirst for power comes through which ends with her bargaining a Holy Sword for the Knife, which we now know is infected.  The general theory is she was infected by the Knife and was later cured by Mab when she put her on ice.  It was my opinion then that she might have been infected before she came in contact with the Knife.   If she was, it would account for her being okay with Harry going to Justin for his training, then when Harry proved himself by escaping enthrallment, neutralizing HWWB, Justin could be discarded.... So she then supposedly helped Harry eliminate him, what she did was trick an inexperienced sixteen year old kid into a bargain.   We find out later that she did little to aid Harry except perhaps a "confidence boost" as Jim puts it, but it makes Harry obligated to her with the hope of later making use of him.  All this plays into the Enemy's hands, except Mab had other plans.

Lea did have the fairy godmother bargain running at the time which complicates her relationship to Harry.

What's clear from the journal though is that whoever killed Malcom wanted Harry to go into the system. Disappearing someone from the bureaucracy in less than a day is way more work than faking an identity long enough to kidnap a kid with no relatives. Harder to maintain, too, since foster parents/orphanage staff complain if they've got an extra kid so you'd need to create a cover identity that holds well enough so no one asks why Harry's name on the paperwork is different. To my mind, that strengthens Justin's place at the top of the short list.

Other people on the short list: Mab and The White King. Nic and Cowl would be on there but they didn't seem to show any particular familiarity with Harry. Both seem the type to drop cryptic hints while gloating.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 14, 2020, 03:26:45 PM
Quote
Lea did have the fairy godmother bargain running at the time which complicates her relationship to Harry.

  But if she was fighting infestation the whole time it would throw her into conflict as far as her
promise to Margaret was concerned as far as playing god mother to Harry.  In Grave Peril when we
first meet her in the Nevernever, Lea claims that Margaret gave him to her, she also claims that Harry promised to be hers..  It is clear that she wants Harry for her own purpose, which speaks more to a grab for power than a promise of protection.  We don't know what the original bargain was with Margaret for Harry's protection, but Nemesis infection could distort that considerably.   Just contrast Lea's attitude in Grave Peril verses after Proven Guilty when she has received treatment..  In her case I don't think it was just the Knife, I believe she was infected before.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 14, 2020, 08:09:00 PM
He said he arrived 10 hours after Harry went into foster care, not 10 hours after Malcolm died.  We just established that there's several years between.

@exartiem. "Harry went into foster care" means "Harry was sent to the foster system. He was recorded, sent to an orphanage" not "he has been adopted". That happened 4 years later. Mira is probably right about what happened immediately after Malcolm died, with police, social workers and so on. I imagine in a day or two he was in an orphanage, and someone hid him from other people, like Morgan. I think the easier option is that is Lea. She considered that Harry was safe in the system, but she made sure that no one else knew about him. She probably messed with the paperwork (which was not very complicated when Harry was a child) and did some glamour so he was magically protected too. I am not sure what "physically" meant here.

In other topics, it is very interesting that clearly no one seems to know about Elaine status as a starborn (which reminds me. We know that because of WoJ, but have we seen anyone on the books who explicitly knows that? Does Harry know that?)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 14, 2020, 09:42:22 PM
@exartiem. "Harry went into foster care" means "Harry was sent to the foster system. He was recorded, sent to an orphanage" not "he has been adopted". That happened 4 years later. Mira is probably right about what happened immediately after Malcolm died, with police, social workers and so on. I imagine in a day or two he was in an orphanage, and someone hid him from other people, like Morgan. I think the easier option is that is Lea. She considered that Harry was safe in the system, but she made sure that no one else knew about him. She probably messed with the paperwork (which was not very complicated when Harry was a child) and did some glamour so he was magically protected too. I am not sure what "physically" meant here.

In other topics, it is very interesting that clearly no one seems to know about Elaine status as a starborn (which reminds me. We know that because of WoJ, but have we seen anyone on the books who explicitly knows that? Does Harry know that?)

  As far as I know, no..  I think the only mention of Elaine possibly being a star born came in the form of a WOJ, and that was some years ago now.   If anyone remembers something from the books please come forward, I don't remember any mention.  Only thing close to it is Lea saying that both Harry and Elaine were meant to be enforcers.  That doesn't say it, just puts them on par perhaps power wise.   So another Harry Potter parallel perhaps?  Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom, it was
a toss up between who was going to be the chosen one... Harry and Elaine, toss up as to whom was going to be the star born...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 14, 2020, 10:28:09 PM
Well, we know that Justin figured it out, so someone probably does.

The thing is that we don't know much about Elaine at all really, because she's been hanging in the background avoiding notice and probably plotting maniacally, and Harry never told anyone that a Second apprentice of Justin even existed.

It's possible that there's some other Wizard out there who's kicking themselves for failing Elaine's parents the way that Morgan apparently was for breaking his word to Maggie Sr, and we'll never know because Harry is covering for her.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 15, 2020, 05:04:27 AM
Why would anyone believe that Justin figured anything out? Chauncy says early on the Margaret was headed to hell. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that Elaine and Harry were a part of some plot hatched before Maggie got cold feet and hit the road? 

It's always struck me as strange that in a span of less than two years, Maggie met, fell in love and had a baby by Malcolm, all while hiding from Papa Raith and an entropy curse. Knowing full well that she was ded dead. If still mobile.  Malcolm was always going to be a widower.  What kind of women chooses to have a child under those conditions.  And what kind of man would become a father under those same conditions. Here is the timeline.
Quote
~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.

26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.

~25 BSF: Collin Murphy saves rookie CPD officer Rawlins from an unspecified supernatural creature in a dark alley, killing it with a shotgun full of rock salt. (~30 years before Dead Beat)

26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
That timeline is dodgy.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 15, 2020, 05:23:18 AM
Quote


It's always struck me as strange that in a span of less than two years, Maggie met, fell in love and had a baby by Malcolm, all while hiding from Papa Raith and an entropy curse. Knowing full well that she was ded dead. If still mobile.  Malcolm was always going to be a widower.  What kind of women chooses to have a child under those conditions.  And what kind of man would become a father under those same conditions. Here is the timeline.

Eb says that meeting Malcolm gave the strength to leave Lord Raith.  However it goes back to my theory that Margaret was a spy, she ran with the bad crowd and committed crimes because that was the only way to infiltrate them.  What she saw made her decide that she had to do something more, when she found the right man, she did it.  Very few, maybe not even her own father knew the whole story.  The Micro fiction suggests that Morgan did, given her reputation and his reputation, pregnant or not, the Morgan of most of the books would have lopped off the head of anyone with her kind of rap sheet and asked questions later.   Instead he promises to look after her child? 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 15, 2020, 07:52:09 AM
I mean we don't know anything about Elaine, so it could be that she was just born in the right circumstances and Justin found her, unlike Harry whose birth was almost certainly engineered:

Quote from: Blood Rites
[Margaret] touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."

"I love you," I whispered.

Quote from: White Night
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."

Gosh, that was interesting. Not relevant, but interesting.

"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth - because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."

What the hell was she talking about?

Thud-thump : 1:26.

"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

So yeah, mumma Dresden (who we know was always a piece of work) totally had him on purpose to fuck up whatever her old cabal was up to. That she fell in love with Malcolm and chose him to be the father was probably just good fortune on her/Harry's part.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 15, 2020, 12:41:04 PM
I mean we don't know anything about Elaine, so it could be that she was just born in the right circumstances and Justin found her, unlike Harry whose birth was almost certainly engineered:

So yeah, mumma Dresden (who we know was always a piece of work) totally had him on purpose to fuck up whatever her old cabal was up to. That she fell in love with Malcolm and chose him to be the father was probably just good fortune on her/Harry's part.
What I am suggesting is that Harry was what the cabal was up to.  And Elaine being random strains credulity to the limits.  Unless Jim is throwing reality straight out the window.  The timeline allows the possibility that Margaret ran because she found out she was pregnant and Malcolm's Saintlyness involved raising and loving a child he didn't father.

@Mira
Your giving Eb access to information that Eb shouldn't have had.  While my read of the text indicates that Eb was aware of Malcolm and therefore Harry  prior to Malcolm's death, there isn't anything to indicate that he ever spoke to Maggie before she died. If that is true he wouldn't have any idea of why she ran.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: apgrey on February 15, 2020, 01:07:55 PM
Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460

  I put out the theory a while back that perhaps Justin and Margaret LeFay were working together to learn how to create a starborn.
  This idea explains how Justin was able to find Elaine as well as Harry.  Both are powerful and skilled wizards, it is not believable that Justin could have found two such apprentices by chance.

APG
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Con on February 15, 2020, 01:54:19 PM
Ref:  https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50129.msg2289460.html#msg2289460

  I put out the theory a while back that perhaps Justin and Margaret LeFay were working together to learn how to create a starborn.
  This idea explains how Justin was able to find Elaine as well as Harry.  Both are powerful and skilled wizards, it is not believable that Justin could have found two such apprentices by chance.

APG


It's a common theory. Along with Maggie being the main recruiter of what we know of the Black Council, Black Circle and Black Hats. Or atleast being crucially involved.

But yeah that is what Maggie Sr and Papa Raith were working on is a common theory. Definitely seems likely that Justin was specifically able to track and train Starborns.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 15, 2020, 06:52:59 PM
@Morris: I would note that Margaret was headed to Hell, but didn't make it there. Something happened to take her off that path. Eb says the thing that changed her was meeting Malcolm.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 15, 2020, 07:49:40 PM
Quote
Your giving Eb access to information that Eb shouldn't have had.  While my read of the text indicates that Eb was aware of Malcolm and therefore Harry  prior to Malcolm's death, there isn't anything to indicate that he ever spoke to Maggie before she died. If that is true he wouldn't have any idea of why she ran.

Eb was more than aware of Malcolm, I believe he soul gazed him.
Page 199 Blood Rites

Quote
"She met your father.  A man.  A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I've ever seen."

From that soul gaze Eb would have learned a lot.  Another thought came to me, what if Lord Raith  killed Malcolm as well?  Just because he had taken Margaret away from him.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 15, 2020, 08:46:10 PM
@Morris: I would note that Margaret was headed to Hell, but didn't make it there. Something happened to take her off that path. Eb says the thing that changed her was meeting Malcolm.
Here is the full text.
Quote
He was silent for a minute. Then two. And a while later he said, "The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had… unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."
"I was told she died in childbirth," I said.
"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the night you were born, one of her former allies found her and exacted his vengeance for her desertion."
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 12:01:27 AM
Chauncy provides us with this:
1. Margaret was going to Hell.
2. ?
3. Margaret didn't go to Hell.

Eb provides us with this:
1. Margaret was a bad guy, hanging out with bad guys, doing bad guy things.
2. ?
3. Margaret stopped hanging out with bad guys and doing bad guy things with them.
4. She met Malcolm, and (Eb assumes) fell in love with him.

I think these things are tightly related.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 16, 2020, 12:38:37 AM
I explicitly presume that Chauncy is a liar.

Unless there's a magical bargain in place, so his info MUST be good (in order for him to get the thing he wants in return), Chauncy will mix truth and lies -- MOSTLY lies -- such that nothing he says can be treated as "factual."

It's just part of what Chauncy is.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 01:32:05 AM
Chauncy doesn't say much. But what he says agrees with Eb. And there is a truism about lies, never tell a lie when the truth would serve you better.  But leaving the Circle or Black Council or whatever wouldn't have gotten her a get out of hell card. And we know that Morgan saw her in the last nine months she was alive. What was her act of redemption?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 02:17:10 AM
Choosing redemption? I don't know what Jim believes these days, but he grew up Christian. The books often emphasize the importance of choice. The Knights try to save the Denarians. If the older ones give up their coins, they can't have much more than a few years left. The really old ones like Tessa and Nick would probably have less than a few years.

I think simply choosing to change paths and taking the first steps could be enough. Leaving the circle may have been enough. "I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin" would have probably been enough.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 04:12:27 AM
I explicitly presume that Chauncy is a liar.

Unless there's a magical bargain in place, so his info MUST be good (in order for him to get the thing he wants in return), Chauncy will mix truth and lies -- MOSTLY lies -- such that nothing he says can be treated as "factual."

It's just part of what Chauncy is.

Of course Chauncy is a liar, he was also trying very hard to trick or goad Harry into giving him more of his name so Harry would be in his clutches.   However I think he was also telling the truth that Margaret's acts were getting her a nice place in Hell.  But remember what Uriel said to Harry when he became Winter Knight, motives are important, paraphrasing, " that he could never stray so far from the path that he couldn't return."   I think that is how Margaret lived her life, yes, she wandered so far off the path that her soul was in real danger, but her motives were not totally evil. When she met Malcolm she was able to redeem herself by her love for him and the conception of Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 04:29:47 AM
I'm an old school kinda guy.  So if Jim makes her redemptive arc, "Go and sin no more." I would find that to be unsatisfactory.  Not that he asks me.  He's writes like a Catholic, irrespective of his faith, if any.  And they have purgatory. I personally would want a quid pro quo.  And I'm looking at you Morgan. :o

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 05:06:30 AM
If it makes you feel better, she died because she turned away from her previous associates. As you quoted "[a]fter that, nowhere was safe for her." It's not like she didn't have any penance.

Morgan died to save others. He devoted his life to risking that.

The only way anyone is ever going to get a perfect balance is in some sort of Purgatory where they somehow eliminate all the red from their ledger. (Literally, Purgatory would be a place of cleansing, not necessarily through punishment).
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 16, 2020, 05:23:23 AM
about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 11:50:49 AM
about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.

That is very possible..  However we have the huge example of the Thief on the Cross.  This was a real bad guy who on the Cross stood up for Jesus on the Cross to the other dying thief, and Jesus told him that night, "he'd be with him in Paradise."  So one act can redeem.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 16, 2020, 03:01:14 PM
That is very possible..  However we have the huge example of the Thief on the Cross.  This was a real bad guy who on the Cross stood up for Jesus on the Cross to the other dying thief, and Jesus told him that night, "he'd be with him in Paradise."  So one act can redeem.
I do not think the mere fact that the romans crucified someone proves that he was a bad man.

But according to pauline christianity it is not good deeds that save you. It is the acceptance of christs sacrifice on the cross wich the thief did.

But that is not how Jim's universe works. The human soul is shaped by the choices a human makes during life and in some cases slightly beyond dead until what is next.

The shape of that soul is what decides what happens to it next. Margaret made a some very soul changing choices.

She did not go to hell because she became the person that should not go to hell. By making real choices to that result.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 03:04:19 PM
I'm worried about the narrative. That you can be a mass murderer and get a get out of hell free card in real life from the church by seeking forgiveness on your death bed really doesn't concern me.  What concerns me with her story is why should I care that Maggie died?
about the timeline that bothers @morriswalters so much. What if Margaret lived in the Nevernever part of that time, and so time passed different from her? It is even possible that part of her pregnancy was in the nevernever. That would probably have given Harry a significant magical boost.
Considering that Malcolm is said to be a vanilla mortal, how would that work in terms of a hookup?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 16, 2020, 03:13:27 PM
Considering that Malcolm is said to be a vanilla mortal, how would that work in terms of a hookup?
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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on February 16, 2020, 03:25:10 PM
Considering that Malcolm is said to be a vanilla mortal, how would that work in terms of a hookup?

She might have spent part of the time between getting pregnant and dying in childbirth away from Malcolm. IIRC Malcolm missed Harry's birth and only arrived a few hours after Maggie had died.

She probably would have been been trying to convince her enemies that Malcolm wasn't important so he wouldn't be a target too after she was gone. And if she had to do much fighting while running and hiding, shielding the squishy powerless mortal would have been a potentially fatal distraction.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 05:37:28 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 07:35:54 PM
What concerns me with her story is why should I care that Maggie died?
I don't really understand where the question is coming from, but the only reasons I can see are consequential. One is how it informs Harry's character (and maybe Eb's). Another is that the details of her life after disassociating with the bad guys and death are probably pretty informative of what's going on. Now if there is ever a story featuring her, there might be more emotional reasons to care that she dies.

Also, you seem to be assuming that she was a mustache twirling villain. She could have been a slight twist on a tragic hero who, instead of a completely tragic ending, gets a mostly tragic ending.

Sixteen year old Harry wasn't too different than the description of Margaret. Harry violated the 1st Law. He had "unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation." He would have been brought before the Council and executed if not for Eb's intervention.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 07:47:47 PM
Quote
I do not think the mere fact that the romans crucified someone proves that he was a bad man.

  He was a criminal though because the man who defended Jesus say that the two of them deserved to die because they guilty of what they were accused of where as Jesus wasn't.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 09:07:27 PM
@Bad Alias
Nobody is a villain in their own book. And Margaret wasn't sixteen, she was close to two hundred when she got religion so to speak. And Margaret did what she did with the knowledge that it was morally suspect.  But that isn't my point.  Jim's building to some type of reveal about her.  As a reader, for that to have impact I need to be involved emotionally with the character.   And I'm not.  Right now I'm at the, she bought it and she had to pay for it,  and good riddance, stage.

Margaret was a d**k. And that is a charitable look at her. Goodman Grey describes her as a piece of work.  She abandoned  one child and had another because she was wanting to use him as a weapon. She did mind magic on her fetus and implanted  a working which she used to take revenge on Raith, effectively using her sons like batteries.  That she did it on Thomas first means that she planned to do it on Harry a year before he was conceived.  And Malcolm died because he was associated with Maggie and had her son. So I'm effectively asking Jim, what's the payoff?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 16, 2020, 10:01:27 PM
  He was a criminal though because the man who defended Jesus say that the two of them deserved to die because they guilty of what they were accused of where as Jesus wasn't.
If they were guilty of rebelling against the roman state then I see nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 16, 2020, 10:15:20 PM
Penitent thief
Quote
39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise." 23:39–43
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 16, 2020, 10:30:59 PM
Penitent thief
One of the reasons I do not trust the biblical text. Judea at that moment was almost continuously in armed uprising against rome only the intensity varied somewhat. You hear nothing about that in the scriptures. It is far more likely that he hung there because of that and the later pro roman redaction made a thief out of him. Just as it is more likely that jesus was crucified because the romans saw a threat in him. It was a roman punishment.

As history the whole thing is a mess. The whole narrative is shaped by its message. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 11:06:11 PM
I'm just saying that what we know of Margaret is pretty limited. It's probably how a lot of the older warden's would still describe Harry, who also abandoned his child. The official timeline is fuzzy enough that Margaret may have accidentally conceived Harry with Malcolm and that is how she escaped Raith.

Supposition: Margaret was only involved with "grey" magic. She had legal, but unsavory associates. Raith was one of them. Raith got his hooks into her. Raith twisted her until she was capable of violating the Laws. Raith had been preparing Margaret to conceive a starborn child. She meets Malcolm somewhere, somehow. She falls in love with him. They conceive Harry. She becomes immune to Raith's control. She makes a quick deal with Lea to protect Harry before Lord Raith realizes what's going on. This keeps her safe until Harry is born. In the meantime, she sets up the soulgaze we see in Blood Rites (I have a feeling it isn't a mind magic situation). She gets word to Morgan, and they agree to meet under a flag of truce. She explains what's going on and that she's almost certainly going to die as soon as the child is born. Morgan promises to protect the child because it makes sense from a practical stand point and because protecting children fits his character anyway.

My point is we don't really know what was going on, and Margaret could easily be much more sympathetic than she appears.

Jim's building to some type of reveal about her.  As a reader, for that to have impact I need to be involved emotionally with the character.   And I'm not.  Right now I'm at the, she bought it and she had to pay for it,  and good riddance, stage.
Me too. I'm just saying Jim has room to change what we think about Margaret without contradicting the story in ways that an audience can't accept. Without adding anything so that we perceive Margaret more favorably, the reveal about Margaret, if it does happen, could have impact because of what it means to Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 17, 2020, 12:53:09 AM
@Arjan
Not being particularly religious I treat the Bible as lore.
@Bad Alias
Quote
My point is we don't really know what was going on, and Margaret could easily be much more sympathetic than she appears.
Jim's kept it so vague that she could be a closet nun.  I'm just wore out with it.  But I guess he will get to the point.  Maybe.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 17, 2020, 07:30:27 AM
@Arjan
Not being particularly religious I treat the Bible as lore.
@Bad AliasJim's kept it so vague that she could be a closet nun.  I'm just wore out with it.  But I guess he will get to the point.  Maybe.
Always been interested in history and the history of the origins of Christianity is interesting stuff though too much has been lost. There is actually an interesting discussion about the meaning of the Greek word for these robbers. I read about it in a book originally but it is explained here:

https://sundaymorninggreekblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/thieves-robbers-or-rebels/amp/

It can mean robber or rebel but thief is actually a wrong translation, there is always violence involved.

Simple thieves were not executed on the cross. That was reserved for serious cases. It was not meant to satisfy the sense of justice of the population but to terrify an unruly population.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 17, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
What we have directly seen of Maggie (her message to Harry, his dream or something, when he felt that her hand is guiding him, showed her as a good woman. And people seemed to like her, so I am ready to believe she was reckless, dangerous, rebel but good at heart and perhaps many of the things she did where because of the White vampires influence.

By the way, I don't think Raith was involved in the Starborn plan, simply because he was not searching for Maggie child.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 17, 2020, 03:08:14 PM
Quote
Simple thieves were not executed on the cross. That was reserved for serious cases. It was not meant to satisfy the sense of justice of the population but to terrify an unruly population.

 I think the point is the "thief" said that they deserved their punishment, harsh as it was and that Jesus did not.  So whatever it was that they did to get themselves crucified, he wasn't arguing the point.   The whole point of that story, or the lesson it was trying to teach, is yes, no matter how bad you are, one good act can bring about redemption.   That is what the Holy Knights are about in their fight with the Denarians, to give up their coins and get on the path towards redemption.  That is what Uriel risked his Grace for in Skin Game, redemption.   So given all of that, Margaret met Malcolm, a man pure of heart, truly a good man, she fell in love..  Never underestimate the power of love to change things, it can be for good or in some cases for evil.  In Margaret's case it was for good, to make herself worthy of Malcolm's love she began to reevaluate what her life had been.  To make herself worthy of Malcolm's love with the help of the Winter Court and others she came up with a plan not just for her own redemption but to save the world as we know it, the star child.   It cost her her life, but it also brought about her redemption.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mr. Death on February 18, 2020, 03:48:59 PM
What we have directly seen of Maggie (her message to Harry, his dream or something, when he felt that her hand is guiding him, showed her as a good woman. And people seemed to like her, so I am ready to believe she was reckless, dangerous, rebel but good at heart and perhaps many of the things she did where because of the White vampires influence.
I'd attribute them more to arrogance and naivete, myself. She seems to me like a woman who dove into things with the mindset of, "I know what I'm doing, screw those old fogies, nobody can stop me!" then eventually realized she was in way over her head and made a lot of her last moves out of fear, regret and desperation.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 18, 2020, 04:03:05 PM
I'd attribute them more to arrogance and naivete, myself. She seems to me like a woman who dove into things with the mindset of, "I know what I'm doing, screw those old fogies, nobody can stop me!" then eventually realized she was in way over her head and made a lot of her last moves out of fear, regret and desperation.

   I don't think that so much as she saw a system that did need changing .  And like a lot of young protestors she found out that change is difficult and can backfire on you.  She already was nursing a bit of a grudge because her father made the mistake of thinking he could train her.  It is like a mistake that some parents make teaching their kids to drive, they are too emotionally involved. This created a degree of anger in her to begin with, between that and the reception she got for her ideas before the Council she did what many protesters of the sixties and seventies did, she went rouge and underground..  She was so vulnerable to falling in with stronger types, not always on the right side of the law, as in the leader of the White Vamp Court.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 18, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
I'd attribute them more to arrogance and naivete, myself. She seems to me like a woman who dove into things with the mindset of, "I know what I'm doing, screw those old fogies, nobody can stop me!" then eventually realized she was in way over her head and made a lot of her last moves out of fear, regret and desperation.
Interesting that your interpretation is so different of mine, specially about her last movements. I see them as calculated and very rational, nothing of desperation (and she could feel fear and regret but that was not what fueled her actions).
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 18, 2020, 04:59:23 PM
I agree with the points Mr. Death and Mira made, at least as to what lead Margaret astray. I'd say that a lot of young protesters find out that change is difficult and can backfire on you because of their arrogance and naivete which leads to a mindset of "I know what I'm doing, screw those old fogies, nobody can stop me!" because they see a system that needs changing. Sometimes that leads to a decision with grave consequences.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 18, 2020, 09:11:22 PM
Be careful of comparing Margaret to protestors.  The era was much less simple than those comparisons make it seem. Margaret may resemble more closely in fact the ones who used murder as a political statement and who considered the status quo as something that needed to be crushed at any cost.

Dina's interpretation seems to be closer to the text.
Quote
I followed her nod with my gaze. The image-Thomas snarled something under his breath. The Hunger in the mirror answered in a slow, slithering tongue I did not understand. "Why didn't you help him?"
"I did what I could," my mother said. Her eyes flickered with something dark, an ancient spark of hatred. "I made sure that his father would endure a fitting punishment for what he did to us."

@Mira
Love isn't enough.  It does nothing for those who may have been hurt or who may be hurt by her actions. If she is to be redeemed in the text then we need something else. Or rather I should say you all will need more, at the rate he's writing I won't see the endpoint.  To use Jim's favorite movies. Darth Vader  gets redemption by killing the Emperor.  Maggie needs equal billing with Darth Vader.
"You and Thomas?"
"And you, Harry.
She set up her death curse on the way ot the door.  Whatever caused her to run didn't keep her from taking her vengeance on Raith and using her sons to fuel it.  And the quote implies that he has done something to Harry as well.  Darth Vader got redemption by killing the Emperor.  Maggie deserves similar treatment.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 18, 2020, 10:37:13 PM
Quote
Be careful of comparing Margaret to protestors.  The era was much less simple than those comparisons make it seem. Margaret may resemble more closely in fact the ones who used murder as a political statement and who considered the status quo as something that needed to be crushed at any cost.

  Don't know if you lived through that era or not, but perfectly normal good kids protested and got radicalized..  Groups like the Weathermen were born,  she could have been susceptible.. Using the slippery slope argument and the ease that one can slip into black magic and justify it.
Quote
Love isn't enough.  It does nothing for those who may have been hurt or who may be hurt by her actions. If she is to be redeemed in the text then we need something else. Or rather I should say you all will need more, at the rate he's writing I won't see the endpoint.  To use Jim's favorite movies. Darth Vader  gets redemption by killing the Emperor.  Maggie needs equal billing with Darth Vader.
"You and Thomas?"
"And you, Harry.

Make up for what she did?  No, but love for a man like Malcolm would make her want to be a better woman.  Make amends for the damage she had done, and yes, in the end be redeemed.  Go back and reread the bits where Michael or Sanya explain what the Holy Knight's job is.  They try to get the host to give up the coin, then that person is free to seek redemption or not.  Giving up the coin alone isn't going to make up for past wrongs, but changing how he or she chooses to live the rest of his or her life can..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 18, 2020, 10:38:37 PM
Y'know I really don't get where the 'using her sons to fuel it' stuff is coming from with regards to her death curse. Wasn't it fueled by her lifeforce (like any death curse) and just tied to her bloodline so that the Curse stayed 'refreshed' instead of fading like a normal spell?

It's not like it hurt Harry, or Thomas, in any way, near as I can tell. Just that the presence of Maggie's descendants kept the spell anchored/strong.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 19, 2020, 12:15:27 AM
Y'know I really don't get where the 'using her sons to fuel it' stuff is coming from with regards to her death curse. Wasn't it fueled by her lifeforce (like any death curse) and just tied to her bloodline so that the Curse stayed 'refreshed' instead of fading like a normal spell?

It's not like it hurt Harry, or Thomas, in any way, near as I can tell. Just that the presence of Maggie's descendants kept the spell anchored/strong.
Well it got Thomas tied to a rock as a tidbit for He Who Walks Behind, Murphy attacked and Harry almost murdered as well. But all's well that ends well, I guess. Look, Jim wrote it that way.  I'm just pointing out the notes in the score that he's written.  What I'm interested is in where the music takes us.  In Skin Game Jim told us that Maggie was a piece of work.  And he used the scion of a true nightmare to tell us.  He's playing with our expectations. And now comes the Journal.  I'm hoping in Pace Talks to get some clarity.

@Mira
You may be right.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 19, 2020, 02:50:58 AM
Be careful of comparing Margaret to protesters.
That's why I agreed with the statement. "Normal" kids ended robbing banks for the Symbionese Liberation Army. Or maybe how today "normal" kids went to Syria to join ISIS.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 19, 2020, 04:08:24 AM
That's why I agreed with the statement. "Normal" kids ended robbing banks for the Symbionese Liberation Army. Or maybe how today "normal" kids went to Syria to join ISIS.

Yes, we can never forget that these people are skilled as well as evil and we can all be susceptible
when caught off guard or in a vulnerable moment.   People join cults all of the time, people get scammed all of them time.   Margaret was young and idealistic, she was also angry because her father made some serious mistakes during her training.   The experience with her father made her a bit resentful, put a bit of a chip on her shoulder and last but not least mistrustful of authority, in short not hard to recruit for the dark forces.  Let's not forget that Eb knows he screwed up with her and was determined not to make the same mistakes with Harry.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: exartiem on February 19, 2020, 08:56:31 PM
Two points:

First, we should be careful about how deep we get into religious doctrine because this story is coming from Jim's mind.  It doesn't necessarily have to jive with his own beliefs.  He has said in interviews that he was raised fundamentalist Christian, but more from the "fun" end of fundamental rather than the "mental" end.

Second, as to whether we should care about Margaret, you guys seem to be treating this topic as it's own story.  This is Harry's story.  Harry cares about his mother, all the good and bad.  If you care about Harry then you should care about what affects him.

Of course, if you don't care about Harry, then why are you reading his story?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 19, 2020, 09:05:03 PM
Perhaps the story is interesting enough to be read without actually caring for the lead character.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 19, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
Two points:

First, we should be careful about how deep we get into religious doctrine because this story is coming from Jim's mind.  It doesn't necessarily have to jive with his own beliefs.  He has said in interviews that he was raised fundamentalist Christian, but more from the "fun" end of fundamental rather than the "mental" end.

Second, as to whether we should care about Margaret, you guys seem to be treating this topic as it's own story.  This is Harry's story.  Harry cares about his mother, all the good and bad.  If you care about Harry then you should care about what affects him.

Of course, if you don't care about Harry, then why are you reading his story?

 We care about Margaret's story, because without her story taking the turns that it did, we wouldn't have Harry's story.  At some point if Harry reaches another crossroads like he did when he was down with a broken back, the choices his mother made and why may be very relevant to him, the same goes to how and why his father died.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 19, 2020, 10:10:00 PM
Second, as to whether we should care about Margaret, you guys seem to be treating this topic as it's own story.  This is Harry's story.  Harry cares about his mother, all the good and bad.  If you care about Harry then you should care about what affects him.

Of course, if you don't care about Harry, then why are you reading his story?
Context is king.  If Maggie's story doesn't land then Harry's story is weaker.  And we talk about her because Jim keeps dragging her to the forefront. So he wants you thinking about Maggie. Arguably Margaret is Harry's mentor.  More than anyone else other than Malcolm she has made Harry what he is. And if you don't understand her story then you can't understand Harry's. She is mentioned in almost every book and is connected to all the people in Harry's life.  His daughter was named after her.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 19, 2020, 11:26:11 PM
Hm, I tend to agree with morriswalters, Mr. Death, and Mira. Bad Alias makes some very good points as well. I think my ideas of Margaret are a tad different. I think that while she ultimately had a good heart, but she was running with a bad crowd for a reason and I think part of her liked the power that came with it, if only so she could use it to do good.
Narrative wise, I bet she's a dark reflection of Harry and when he finds out, it'll really throw him for a loop before he ends up believing that she did end up redeeming herself. I have a feeling that she might actually had a harder time dealing with her darker side than Harry had. Plus, I think this would be fairly interesting.
I also think that a lot of her calculations for how Harry came to be were both intelligent but also desperate. I think she overestimated her intelligence and it came back to gite her in a really big way. Maybe her creation of Harry was more of a last ditch attempt to combat outsiders. I don't know if Thomas was an accident or not; she did leave him, despite not wanting to.
I know that people were comparing Morgan and Margaret's situation to Lily and Snape, but what if in this variation, Margaret is Snape?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 20, 2020, 12:27:16 AM
... Jim's kept it so vague that she could be a closet nun.  I'm just wore out with it ...

You're... just wore out with vague hints, speculations, possible/probable/improbable/nothing's-impossiblities ??!?    :o


Dude.   ???

You're hanging out on the wrong forum.

 ;)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 20, 2020, 03:55:49 AM
Perhaps the story is interesting enough to be read without actually caring for the lead character.
In my experience, that's not a thing. If I don't care about the main characters, I don't care enough to keep going.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 20, 2020, 04:45:17 AM
That happens me often but with Harry I took some books to actually caring for him. I kept reading because I liked...well, all the things Harry does not any more. The P.I thing, the potions, the magic gadgets. Also, because I had seen the show and I actually cared for those Harry, Morgan, and Bob.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 20, 2020, 01:59:33 PM
You're... just wore out with vague hints, speculations, possible/probable/improbable/nothing's-impossiblities ??!?    :o


Dude.   ???

You're hanging out on the wrong forum.

 ;)
This is a nice, quite, drama free place.  Something I place a high value on. The rest is a rant, you've been warned.
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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 20, 2020, 02:45:27 PM
That happens me often but with Harry I took some books to actually caring for him. I kept reading because I liked...well, all the things Harry does not any more. The P.I thing, the potions, the magic gadgets. Also, because I had seen the show and I actually cared for those Harry, Morgan, and Bob.

Yes, especially Bob, that is the one thing the television show did a better job of than the books, but a lot of that is due to the actor who played him.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on February 20, 2020, 04:14:45 PM
Yes, he was incredible. All the actors were quite good, to be honest but I simply liked Harry and Morgan.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 20, 2020, 11:22:17 PM
@Bad Alias: I dunno, I end up reading quite a few things where I ended up liking it for the supporting cast more than I did the main character.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: segaily on February 20, 2020, 11:46:57 PM
Interesting that your interpretation is so different of mine, specially about her last movements. I see them as calculated and very rational, nothing of desperation (and she could feel fear and regret but that was not what fueled her actions).

I too see her actions as calculated and rational.  I have often wondered if she might have had visions of the future so that everything she did was with a purpose to save the end of the world.   
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 21, 2020, 05:20:53 AM
This is a nice, quite, drama free place.  Something I place a high value on. The rest is a rant, you've been warned.
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You've just blown the case wide open!  ;)

I can barely finish a 90 minute movie when I don't care about (or dislike when I'm supposed to like) the main character.

@123Chikadee: That's why I hedged a bit with "main characters" instead of just "main character."
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 21, 2020, 09:58:47 PM
... I'm thinking of things like the plot of Proven Guilty. Nine books later we don't have any real clue and neither does anyone else.  Can you tell me something as simple as, who was the antagonist? ...

Define "antagonist."

If you mean, who kidnapped Molly -- that was Mab.  Pretty sure WoJ says so.  The hands may have been Captain Kudzu's, but the will behind the snatch was Mab's.  That was Harry's "antagonist."

But this topic wanders far afield from the Morgan Micro Fiction topic, so I spoilerblock a revisit of that old PG topic...  :)

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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 22, 2020, 12:42:17 AM
The connection to Journal is in the mechanism used to find Molly by the antagonist. Like I said, 9 books later all we got are WAGS. Nobody can speak definitively about why it worked the way it did. And the most interesting question in PG is not who fixed LC, but why did Jim break it in the first place.
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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on February 22, 2020, 12:47:34 PM
Random thought I just had, but what if Mab wasn't the target of the attack on Arctus Tor? What if Mab's reasons for having Molly abducted was because the 'hornets nest' that Harry had kicked up had decided to cut their losses in the face of Hurricane Dresden and take her themselves, and Mab just decided to rob them of their prize by 'kidnapping' her away to her Stronghold.

Not that I can think of a reason why Molly would be so valuable back then as to be worth that much effort of course, but hey, I'm half asleep, this is probably a stupid idea.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 22, 2020, 02:55:56 PM
Why would Margaret contact Morgan?  The only thing that makes any sense to me comes from how Jim has positioned Morgan.  As absolutely uncorruptable.  What would that imply?
Quote
Not that I can think of a reason why Molly would be so valuable back then as to be worth that much effort of course, but hey, I'm half asleep, this is probably a stupid idea.
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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 25, 2020, 03:59:07 PM
The connection to Journal is in the mechanism used to find Molly by the antagonist. Like I said, 9 books later all we got are WAGS. Nobody can speak definitively about why it worked the way it did. And the most interesting question in PG is not who fixed LC, but why did Jim break it in the first place.
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Based on Mab's "desert fox" comment in Summer Knight, I think she doesn't know what Rashid is up to all the time (maybe most of the time) but enjoys trying to figure it out.

Why would Margaret contact Morgan?  The only thing that makes any sense to me comes from how Jim has positioned Morgan.  As absolutely uncorruptable.  What would that imply?
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Rashid also has some ability to see possible futures.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 25, 2020, 05:55:10 PM
Based on Mab's "desert fox" comment in Summer Knight, I think she doesn't know what Rashid is up to all the time (maybe most of the time) but enjoys trying to figure it out.
Rashid also has some ability to see possible futures.
Mab does what Anduriel does, with the addition of video.  Rashid is only a step behind her.  It's a wonder Harry doesn't feel breathing on his neck when he takes a leak. However in terms of Time, at least in this case, it's a probabilistic look at time. Possible futures rather than absolute ones.  Things that might be. What that Desert Fox tells you more than anything else, is that Mab knows him well enough to give him an affectionate  nickname.
Random thought I just had, but what if Mab wasn't the target of the attack on Arctus Tor? What if Mab's reasons for having Molly abducted was because the 'hornets nest' that Harry had kicked up had decided to cut their losses in the face of Hurricane Dresden and take her themselves, and Mab just decided to rob them of their prize by 'kidnapping' her away to her Stronghold.

Not that I can think of a reason why Molly would be so valuable back then as to be worth that much effort of course, but hey, I'm half asleep, this is probably a stupid idea.
The attack at Arctis Tor was designed to do precisely what it did, keep Mab bottled up while events were occurring in Dead Beat. It was a feint.  She beat it off and then tried to figure out how and why.

I spoilered this because I'm sure that people are tired of me banging this particular drum.
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Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 25, 2020, 06:45:58 PM
@morris:
Was it just that?

I know Uriel fights one soul at a time too, but what would it have done to the Council? Harry murdered as he stood up for what was right - and even Morgan seems to know it. Morgan who swore to protect Harry. Would even Morgan be able to stand straight when his duties conflict and justice argues against his greater duty? Or would he crack and shatter, before or after Harry's death?

Harry wasn't yet the hero of the young Wardens of Turn Coat/Changes, but he was no doubt close.
And then Ebenezar and his gang are dead if Uriel/TWG doesn't send Michael.

In other words - the deadliest Warden is internally shattered, two more of the scariest wizards in a fight (Eb and Harry) lie dead, and the Wardens who need Morgan's clarity to prevent them doing anything foolish want to avenge Harry. That is 'The White Council is gone' levels of bad.

Saving Harry's soul was the point - but saving the soul of the White Council was, too, even if it was a less roaring success.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 25, 2020, 06:55:17 PM
Quote
Harry wasn't yet the hero of the young Wardens of Turn Coat/Changes, but he was no doubt close.
And then Ebenezar and his gang are dead if Uriel/TWG doesn't send Michael.

Are you sure?  Have to go back but I believe the consensus was that Harry was the hero of the young wardens and the apprentices.  I believe you are thinking of Proven Guilty when Michael tells him that it was Harry that was being saved, not Molly.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Avernite on February 25, 2020, 07:01:02 PM
Are you sure?  Have to go back but I believe the consensus was that Harry was the hero of the young wardens and the apprentices.  I believe you are thinking of Proven Guilty when Michael tells him that it was Harry that was being saved, not Molly.
Uhm.

Yes, that was what my sentenced aimed to convey - in Turn Coat/Changes Harry is the hero of the young Wardens.
In Proven Guilty he isn't yet, but I think he was on the way there.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: didymos on February 25, 2020, 07:07:04 PM
Uhm.

Yes, that was what my sentenced aimed to convey - in Turn Coat/Changes Harry is the hero of the young Wardens.
In Proven Guilty he isn't yet, but I think he was on the way there.

Actually, he is as of Dead Beat:

Quote
“There’s more to it than that,” Luccio said. “I think that you do not realize your own reputation. You have overcome more enemies and battled more evils than most wizards a century your senior. And times are changing. There are more young wizards attaining membership to the Council than ever before—like Ramirez and his companions, there. To them, you are a symbol of defiance to the conservative elements of the Council, and a hero who will risk his life when his principles demand it.”
“I am?”
 “You are,” Luccio said.

Butcher, Jim. Dead Beat: A Novel of The Dresden Files (p. 317). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 25, 2020, 08:46:51 PM
@morris:
Was it just that?
The short answer to that is I don't know. But the Council as it is is doomed. I think Jim has made that clear.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 26, 2020, 02:26:48 AM
Molly was set up to get Harry killed trying to keep her from meeting the same  fate.
But who set Molly up? (Which is kinda your point that we have all these unanswered questions from Proven Guilty).
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 26, 2020, 11:19:13 AM
The BC. The only mystery left there is who are they?  My point really is, why so many.  Look at how many characters on team bad guy are dead.  Would it kill him to clarify a few things?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on February 26, 2020, 12:01:33 PM
The BC. The only mystery left there is who are they?  My point really is, why so many.  Look at how many characters on team bad guy are dead.  Would it kill him to clarify a few things?
Maybe. He has a mortage.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 26, 2020, 01:38:13 PM
I feel his pain. But it has nothing to do with plot service.  I don't want him to go to a book signing in Sri Lanka and shout it out in a mall there.  I want him to put it in the text. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 26, 2020, 02:39:44 PM
I don't want him to go to a book signing in Sri Lanka and shout it out in a mall there.
Please don't give up humor.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 26, 2020, 04:57:32 PM
I feel his pain. But it has nothing to do with plot service.  I don't want him to go to a book signing in Sri Lanka and shout it out in a mall there.  I want him to put it in the text. 
Now I want Jim to do the Big Reveal in Sri Lanka ...  in the text, on one of Harry's Road Trips.

Maybe discovering (per my Harry the Destroyer WAG) how he's fulfilling the role of Shiva.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: kbrizzle on February 26, 2020, 04:59:06 PM
Just read the short story, here are some thoughts:

Maggie Sr & Morgan
Here is my WAG - after non-Starborn Thomas’ birth, Maggie realized what a bastard Raith Sr really is (including his colluding with Outsiders). Using the true love for her son, she was able to break Raith’s hold over her - she knew she had to escape because of what Raith Sr & his co-conspirators were planning (likely to birth a Starborn to control the Outsiders & create a new world order).

Once she escaped, Maggie went to the WC (through intermediaries - likely her old associate Justin) to inform them of Raith’s plot. I have other theories about Justin & Maggie but will focus on Morgan for now.

Morgan agrees to hear Maggie out because he has a good relationship with her dad, the Blackstaff. Maggie tells Morgan about Nemesis & the Outsiders & how Raith is planning to use them for his own ends. Morgan takes this to the Senior Council who dismiss it - they know about Nemesis & the Outsiders but are basking in a post-Kemmler world (he only died a decade ago) - they are not eager to start a war with the White Court & it’s ‘invincible’ king.

Morgan feels they are underestimating this new threat. Maggie is marked for death by the WC & Raith’s cohort but Morgan knows that she is necessary to fight Raith’s conspiracy - so he doesn’t quite hunt her & even helps her out when he can. Morgan believes Maggie has changed & is really trying to right her past wrongs - he grows to like her a person & in time agrees to look out for Harry if she is not around.

Nfecting mortals
I had a thought after reading this story - I’ve always been in the camp that mortals can’t be Nfected since they have free will, however what if Nemesis gives mortals what they most seek - an immortality of sorts? Kumori basically tells Dresden that she & Cowl want to end death in DB, & Cowl is mysteriously able to survive a screwed up Darkhallow fairly intact.
So what if Nfected mortals can’t die? If Justin were Nfected, maybe he’s still alive somewhere pulling strings. I do not believe that Justin is Cowl or that Peabody was Nfected.

6 yr old Harry’s disappearance
This was clearly done by some organization with a lot of experience in dealing with human affairs - note that Morgan says kid Harry disappeared physically, magically & bureaucratically. I don’t think the Fae would be able to hide Harry without mortal help (I do believe Lea was involved because I’ve also heard the WoJ that she would disguise herself & visit Harry at the orphanage).

My guess is likely a pact between Justin & Lea. They conspire to kill Malcolm (WoJ is that Harry would be extremely pissed if he knew of Lea’s role in this) & eventually raise Harry - they have their own agendas however.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 26, 2020, 06:17:42 PM
... Using the true love for her son, she was able to break Raith’s hold over her ...

No (alas).

WoJ is very specific and clear that parent/child love does NOT grant immunity from Whampire powers:
Quote
... it’s got to be reciprocated equally or it doesn’t work. While a parent’s love for a child can be something pure and selfless, the child doesn’t return the same kind of love. Children can’t. The nature of the relationship isn’t one of equals exchanging trust and affection, but of the greater protecting the lesser ...
(https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/)



... I’ve always been in the camp that mortals can’t be Nfected since they have free will, however what if Nemesis gives mortals what they most seek - an immortality of sorts? ... So what if Nfected mortals can’t die? ... 
I'm still pretty much "on the fence" about whether mortals can/cannot be Nemfected.  On the whole, I tend to think they can (although I suspect it works differently in mortals than in immortals).  The strongest evidence AFAIK is Maeve's testimony at the end of Cold Days:
Quote
"And the vampire's crumpet.  Lucious little thing, aren't you?  And so close to Lady Raith.  You and I are going to have a long talk after this, darling.  I just know you're going to start to see things my way."
(Cold Days, Chapter 51; emphasis added by me)
Now, maybe this is just Maeve thinking she can glamour/enchant her way into dominating Justine (overriding Whamp controls?  Dunno, maybe SummerLady can, at that; or maybe Maeve's anticipating being Queen soon, which I suspect would give the needed power-up to do so); or maybe she was simply planning to blackmail Justine by holding Thomas captive.

But I'm inclined to see this quote as a veiled reference-to / threat-of Nemfecting Justine.

We have seen Maeve operating as a Nemfected agent for so long -- more AFAIK than any other agent -- that I think she probably has more insight into how it works than any other we have seen.  It was a bit of a villain-gloat moment... but then, Maeve seemed a villain-gloat sort of girl.   ::)
 


... This was clearly done by some organization with a lot of experience in dealing with human affairs - note that Morgan says kid Harry disappeared physically, magically & bureaucratically. I don’t think the Fae would be able to hide Harry without mortal help (I do believe Lea was involved because I’ve also heard the WoJ that she would disguise herself & visit Harry at the orphanage) ...
I think Justin was involved in "disappearing" Harry because Justin was the one who ended up with Harry (even though Morgan was also looking).

I don't know that there was any Fae involvement needed.  Lea could easily have worked around Justin's involvement, making sure he was distracted by something else, any time she was interacting with orphan-Harry, etc.

By the same token -- and playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here -- I think the Fae could have done it all, without Justin's help, and later tipped Justin off when they were ready for Harry to take the next step.  No, the Fae aren't experts in bureaucratic stuff.  But since when have the Fae been unable to bargain mortals into doing their bidding?  The fae could have had any number of cops, social workers, and even clerical/officer workers, who would happily have "buried" Harry's case beyond any hope of following a paper-trail, in return for many of the inducements the Fae could offer!
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on February 26, 2020, 08:22:58 PM
You've just blown the case wide open!  ;)

I can barely finish a 90 minute movie when I don't care about (or dislike when I'm supposed to like) the main character.

@123Chikadee: That's why I hedged a bit with "main characters" instead of just "main character."

I stuck with the Codex Alera 'cuz I liked Bernard, for example. I didn't particularly care for Tavi until Academ's Fury. Though part of that is Furies of Calderon takes about 150 pages to get decent. Once Second Calderon starts, it's good, but most of the book leading up to that is (in my opinion) pretty rough.

In fact, I'm back on a Butcher Binge in advance of Peace Talks, and started listening to the Codex Alera audiobooks again. Rather than start from the beginning, I picked up about 2/3rds-3/4ths of the way through, when Tavi and Kitai
(click to show/hide)
I had a way better time than when I listened to the Adventures of Isana in the Kitchen and The Drama that Happens in Front of the Fireplace and Tavi Throws Salt at Ghost Horses. (For anyone wondering, the Codex Alera audiobooks are pretty solid; the narration isn't quite as excellent as James Marsters post-Summer Knight, but it's on par or better than most of the other ones I've heard).

Contrast that with some other fantasy works, like the Forgotton Realms's Cleric Quintet. I liked Cadderly right off the bat, and he's pretty close to Tavi (archetype-wise, anyway).

Anyway, yeah. Sometimes the lead protagonists can be hit or miss. I lucked out with Dresden wherein I liked Harry and Bob from the getgo. I originally thought that Murphy might be an ongoing Obstructionist Bureaucrat Antagonist, and that maybe Marcone and Harry would end up being bros. I was at least half right about those. But then Michael showed up and the series went from check to check plus.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on February 27, 2020, 01:54:29 PM
The author has to sell a story.  World War Z has no main character at all.  A Canticle For Leibowitz takes place over a 1000 or so years. Jim is very good at selling his story.(except for PG ;))  I admire any writer who can have a wizard go to a conclave in a bath robe.  He's twisted just my way.

On what happened to Harry. I have no idea how he ended up in Justin's care.  However, everybody and his brother has infiltrated human society.  Why would the Black Council be any different. The whole thing about bureaucracies that they are maze like from the outside.  They share Harry/Jim's fetish for arcane lore and secrecy.  They are a plot point made to be used in this case.

And after very little thought, why would humans miss out of the fun of a nemfection.  Aren't we, as mortals, at least as good as an athame. A nemfection exists, in so much as anybody knows, to corrupt the nature of the person it infects.  Most humans just don't have enough power to to be useful in that context.

Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 28, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
No, the Fae aren't experts in bureaucratic stuff.
Mab's a lawyer.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on February 28, 2020, 07:47:33 PM
Mab's a lawyer.
Of sorts.  Not a sort you'd care to face in a courtroom, to be sure!
Mab is also a Judge... again, one that you'd rather not face.

But bureaucracy is its own separate horror, with paperwork and interdepartmental BS, with regulation "A" saying you MUST do a thing, while regulation "7.II.13b" says you MUST NOT do that exact thing, etc etc etc...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on February 29, 2020, 05:33:49 PM
I mean she is literally a lawyer.

Quote
Mab’s human cover is she’s a lawyer, she’s actually a licensed attorney and can show up and do things if she wants to, she doesn’t often choose to do that but occasionally it’s useful to be able to walk into a human courtroom. cos law is something that… I think one of the defining attributes of many of the fae is that they have this completely rigid code, and they understand codes even if we don’t understand the code they're behaving by, they adhere to it and they're going to stick to whatever they believe in even if it makes no sense to us...
Jim, Eastorcon 2015

I don't know how she's a lawyer, where she's admitted, or how she maintains her license(s).
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on February 29, 2020, 09:48:01 PM
I mean she is literally a lawyer.
Jim, Eastorcon 2015

I don't know how she's a lawyer, where she's admitted, or how she maintains her license(s).
  • Did she go to law school and pass the bar exam or was she a lawyer before some or all such requirements existed and has she just maintained her license(s)?
  • Is she licensed in just one state? Is she licensed in all of them? Is she licensed in multiple countries?
  • Does she sit through CLE classes? (California requires 25 hours every 3 years, Texas 15 every year, and New York 24 every 2 years)

I don't see any of the above being a problem for her, if she needs a license, it will happen..  It brings her bargaining powers into focus though, why she is so good at finding loop holes and why mortals usually lose to her.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 01, 2020, 12:21:48 AM
I mean she is literally a lawyer.
<Snip WoJ>
Jim, Eastorcon 2015
...

<blinks>
Well.
Thank you, I hadn't see or heard of this before!
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 01, 2020, 12:29:59 AM
...  It brings her bargaining powers into focus though, why she is so good at finding loop holes and why mortals usually lose to her.
To be brutally frank about it, rigid adherence to weird legalistic codes (with abstruse loopholes and stunningly draconian penalties) has been a hallmark of faeries & old faerie-tales since LONG before any of the existing legal codes were written; it's far more likely (particularly in the Dresdenverse) that the lawyers derive their ways from the fae, than vice versa!
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 01, 2020, 03:23:28 AM
I don't see any of the above being a problem for her, if she needs a license, it will happen.
It's more that it seems like her time is more valuable. A lot of CLE credits are apply to most states, so it's not like she's going to have to do 425 hours a year (just over 17 days), but I wouldn't be surprised if she would have to spend a few days every year taking CLEs. A lot of CLE seminars designed to cover a years worth of credits are scheduled over two or three days. And it's not like she could just not take the classes because that would involve lying. There are other certifications (statements) lawyers have to make annually. Additionally, depending on when she became a lawyer in America, she could have been required to swear an oath to defend the Constitution, which is a somewhat scary concept.

Honestly, it has me thinking that Jim has no idea what is involved in simply being a lawyer. I mean, most people have no idea what's involved in most professions. This came up recently because a friend of mine who is a manager had employees becoming disgruntled because they thought she just sat there in her office not doing anything. I don't know why they thought a big corporation would even have that position if it didn't involve doing anything, but hey, people are generally stupid.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 01, 2020, 04:16:15 AM
Mab's got peeps and unlimited cash.  Given those two things and I'll get a Law degree and keep it and never see a classroom.  And never tell a lie.  But Jim is a writer.  He just has a bad habit of world building outside the text, and occasionally it makes him look silly.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 01, 2020, 12:23:55 PM


  Then again,  Mab isn't a mere mortal, taking classes and tests to keep current wouldn't be that big a deal for her.  Possibly she'd take them those times when she was out and about in the mortal world with Sarissa, going to the opera etc..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Silentbrick on March 01, 2020, 01:51:10 PM
I don't see any need for her to do it.   I'm sure someone that /looks/ like her does attend and keep up with whatever is needed, but I doubt it's Mab.   That's what minions are for and probably the only time one uses a glamour to look like Mab.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 01, 2020, 06:51:52 PM
Then again,  Mab isn't a mere mortal, taking classes and tests to keep current wouldn't be that big a deal for her.  Possibly she'd take them those times when she was out and about in the mortal world with Sarissa, going to the opera etc..
It's still a tremendous waste of time for virtually no gain. Mab's got a lot to do.

I don't see any need for her to do it.   I'm sure someone that /looks/ like her does attend and keep up with whatever is needed, but I doubt it's Mab.   That's what minions are for and probably the only time one uses a glamour to look like Mab.
This would require her, or the minion, to lie.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 01, 2020, 07:20:21 PM
It's still a tremendous waste of time for virtually no gain. Mab's got a lot to do.
This would require her, or the minion, to lie.
She can just arrive with her invisible minion, introduce herself and swap with a simple illusion and the minion can do the test.

Or she can have people in the right places that help her. But a few days are usually not a problem. Especially not in normal times between two apocalypses.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 01, 2020, 07:51:07 PM
The bar exams aren't really the problem. Mab was most likely admitted to practice before those were a common place thing. "Think about this, to become a lawyer, all Abraham Lincoln, our esteemed 16th president, was required by Illinois law to do was to 'obtain certificate procured from the court of an Illinois county certifying to the applicant's good moral character.'"

The problem is taking and certifying that she has taken the CLEs. Mab cannot falsely certify she has fulfilled her annual CLE requirements.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: peregrine on March 01, 2020, 08:23:40 PM
There's online CLE options as well, that Mab could easily do on her own time, or by paying only a bit of attention to while holding court or whatever.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 01, 2020, 08:39:38 PM
Yeah, fifteen monitors (or something like that) going at once seems like the only way she could actually meet the requirements in a way that isn't just a waste of her time. I still wonder why she would even bother.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Snark Knight on March 01, 2020, 09:52:44 PM
I mean, most people have no idea what's involved in most professions. This came up recently because a friend of mine who is a manager had employees becoming disgruntled because they thought she just sat there in her office not doing anything. I don't know why they thought a big corporation would even have that position if it didn't involve doing anything, but hey, people are generally stupid.

I read a study a while back where paying one VP handsomely to visibly do SFA actually ends up worth it because the office drones think if they work harder, they could get there one day.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 01, 2020, 10:13:21 PM
Honestly, it has me thinking that Jim has no idea what is involved in simply being a lawyer. I mean, most people have no idea what's involved in most professions. This came up recently because a friend of mine who is a manager had employees becoming disgruntled because they thought she just sat there in her office not doing anything. I don't know why they thought a big corporation would even have that position if it didn't involve doing anything, but hey, people are generally stupid.
But it is good that managers do nothing because then they do not disturb the people who are doing the real work  ;D
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on March 01, 2020, 11:51:10 PM
Just an odd thought.  Mab would have to change the identity she uses in the mortal world from time to time.  It would look awfully strange if her law degree was from the 19th century or the early 20th century. 

I did a little research and the first female lawyer in the U.S. was a woman named Arabella Mansfield; and she was admitted to the Iowa Bar in 1869.  In the UK, the first woman to "be called to the bar" was one Ivy Williams in 1922; though she never practiced law.  The first women to practice as a barrister in the UK was called to the bar a few months later.  Her name was Helena Normanton.  In France, the first woman to be allowed to act as an attorney was one Victorie de Villirouët, during the French Revolution in 1797-98; though it would be another 102 years until another women would legally be allowed to do the same thing in France.  She successfully defended her husband against a charge of treason.  If Mab had been there; well, I picture her being a prosecutor rather than a defender.

I recall Mab used the last name Summerset in Summer Knight.  That was a reference that the Summer Solstice was almost at hand, a harmless play on words.  However; with the injunction the fae have against telling direct lies, I think there would be a stricter code for Mab to follow in doing something as formal as becoming an attorney.  There are many names which Mab has been given in different folklore and literature, so I think any name she practiced under would at least be a reference to her actual identity.   

One other passing thought.  I wouldn't like to see Mab have the time to become a judge in any type of mortal court.  I picture her as a "cut the baby in half" kind of judge, only she would really mean it.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 02, 2020, 11:06:42 PM
I suspect Mab has a large number of "valid" names -- names that human "officials" have given her -- that she could use to interact with mortal Law & legal issues.

She doesn't have to use her True Name for this; there's no magical bargain involved.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 02, 2020, 11:12:34 PM
The bar exams aren't really the problem. Mab was most likely admitted to practice before those were a common place thing. "Think about this, to become a lawyer, all Abraham Lincoln, our esteemed 16th president, was required by Illinois law to do was to 'obtain certificate procured from the court of an Illinois county certifying to the applicant's good moral character.'"

The problem is taking and certifying that she has taken the CLEs. Mab cannot falsely certify she has fulfilled her annual CLE requirements.

You're thinking too small, like Mab only has the resources other lawyers do.

I'm sure there's a way for people to fulfill CLE req's via some form of "tutoring" and other 1:1 interactions.

So Mab just hires a certified tutor.  She probably makes sure there's some clued-in mortals, un-Chosen or Mortal-choice faerie halfbloods, etc, who work the law and get the necessary credentials.

If time becomes an issue, they do it in a 100:1 time-distorted bit of the Nevernever.

Everyone's truthful, Mab fulfills the obligations, and every now and again some OTHER litigator has a Really Bad Day facing a stunningly-beautiful opponent in court...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 03, 2020, 03:25:57 AM
I'm sure there's a way for people to fulfill CLE req's via some form of "tutoring" and other 1:1 interactions.
There aren't. Doing all the CLEs at once electronically is the only way that makes any sense. Doing however many hours in an hour. Even if that's what she does, it still seems like a waste of her time.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 03, 2020, 12:55:22 PM
There aren't. Doing all the CLEs at once electronically is the only way that makes any sense. Doing however many hours in an hour. Even if that's what she does, it still seems like a waste of her time.

  Depends on the payoff..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 03, 2020, 07:45:21 PM
I guess you could bribe someone to certify a course taught by some guy, but that seems like more effort than taking 15 1 hour courses electronically all at once. There is no way that hiring a tutor is more efficient in any way.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 03, 2020, 08:20:00 PM
Jim did not say where Mab got her title. She could have done in another country with different laws. I don't think my country has such specific requirements. Mab, as the other said, could have many legitimate identities, and she just needs to take the exam or exams to be licensed, which would be piece of cake for her.
Alternatively, go with the online thing. Mab logs in with her username and data and then some human lawyer do the things. Then she is certified. Pretty sure nobody is going to ask her "have you done so and so?". They would only require her to show the certicate, and she will have it.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on March 03, 2020, 10:03:13 PM
This would require her, or the minion, to lie.

I mean, that's what I thought about her being a Lawyer in the first place, yet here we are.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 04, 2020, 01:34:17 AM
Mab, as the other said, could have many legitimate identities, and she just needs to take the exam or exams to be licensed, which would be piece of cake for her.
Nope (mostly).
Quote
Today, only four states — California, Virginia, Vermont, and Washington.
https://priceonomics.com/how-to-be-a-lawyer-without-going-to-law-school/ (https://priceonomics.com/how-to-be-a-lawyer-without-going-to-law-school/). Also, it takes longer and more time throughout than going to law school.

But the point isn't about becoming a lawyer, it's about being, or maintaining status as, a lawyer.

I mean, she could be a lawyer some country that has little or no requirements for becoming and being a lawyer, but I doubt she would find that terribly useful. Then again, I don't see her being a lawyer in any American jurisdiction to terribly useful. She could represent herself in any court without being a lawyer. Additionally, representing herself would most likely be a waste of time.

We saw in Jury Duty that both Marcone and the White Court approached the justice system through illegitimate means. Marcone did jury (selection) tampering. (The White Court really should have just struck Harry with one of their peremptory strikes). The White Court did witness tampering (and controlling the prosecutor). Why spend all that time in court when you can just spend a little time going around the system?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 04, 2020, 04:43:56 AM
But that is precisely what I mean, that Jim has not said that Mab is a lawyer in USA. That is why I mentioned that I don't think my country has any requirement to mantain the status. Once you got your license, you are a lawyer for ever (or at least I believe so. Dad was a lawyer and I don't remember him talking any mandatory classes)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 04, 2020, 06:02:51 AM
I doubt Mab became a lawyer in Red Court territory just so she can say "I'm a lawyer." Especially since Jim says she finds it useful to be able to walk into a courtroom. This implies that she's a lawyer everywhere she has significant interests.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 04, 2020, 08:11:52 AM
Apparently she finds it useful to have one or more human identities to make functioning outside the nevernever go more smoothly. Things like buying and holding real estate and influencing politicians. Owning a law firms in some countries would be useful in the same way as the white court holding the porn industry and the red court had a lot of the criminal underworld. They all pick part of the human world they have some affinity with.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 04, 2020, 12:26:05 PM
But that is precisely what I mean, that Jim has not said that Mab is a lawyer in USA. That is why I mentioned that I don't think my country has any requirement to mantain the status. Once you got your license, you are a lawyer for ever (or at least I believe so. Dad was a lawyer and I don't remember him talking any mandatory classes)

My best friend's husband is a lawyer,  I think it depends on the type of law one practices.  In some areas the laws change more frequently than others.. However as far as I know he might take a week or a weekend once a year to get caught up on them, not much time when one is immortal..  As a practicing lawyer, he already knows the law, reading and understanding the fine points of a new law or change shouldn't take all that long.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 04, 2020, 01:38:44 PM
I doubt Mab became a lawyer in Red Court territory just so she can say "I'm a lawyer." Especially since Jim says she finds it useful to be able to walk into a courtroom. This implies that she's a lawyer everywhere she has significant interests.

My country (which may or may be not be Red Court territory in JB world) was only an example. Perhaps Europe has another rules too. I won't be surprised if Mab has a British identity, so Shakesperean.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 04, 2020, 05:36:46 PM
My country (which may or may be not be Red Court territory in JB world) was only an example. Perhaps Europe has another rules too. I won't be surprised if Mab has a British identity, so Shakesperean.

I think the main point is Mab thinks like a very good lawyer, that is why it is so dangerous to try and bargain with her.   Even if one is experienced such as Harry at it,  he only really bested her once and he would have failed at that had it not been for Uriel's seven words.   I also think if she believes some issue, person, or thing in mortal court is vital to her cause and plans she'd do what
she needed to do to make herself current and take it up herself.  Let's not forget that time lines in our world and the Nevernever are different, so what may seem like wasting time to us looking at it from our perspective may be totally different from hers.. So if it is important enough, she'd never see it as a waste of time.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 04, 2020, 07:00:41 PM
Things are tunning towards an apocalypse now but normally immortals have loads of time.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 04, 2020, 08:13:34 PM
My best friend's husband is a lawyer,  I think it depends on the type of law one practices.  In some areas the laws change more frequently than others.. However as far as I know he might take a week or a weekend once a year to get caught up on them, not much time when one is immortal..  As a practicing lawyer, he already knows the law, reading and understanding the fine points of a new law or change shouldn't take all that long.
One's field of practice doesn't affect one's jurisdiction's CLE requirements. (I know some field's require certain CLE's be taken, but the overall number doesn't change). It's not necessarily about staying on top of things; it is necessarily about meeting state mandated requirements.

I think the main point is Mab thinks like a very good lawyer.
I do think that was Jim's point. He said "some of the fae ... they understand codes." These fae would be natural lawyers. They wouldn't need law school, training, or much practice to be effective practitioners of mortal law. Which does go to my original point of bringing up that Mab is a lawyer. Those fae would be good at handling a bureaucracy.

Perhaps Europe has another rules too. I won't be surprised if Mab has a British identity, so Shakesperean.
I have no idea what the rules are in the various European states. I'm sure they're different in each one. I'm also sure Mab has interests in all of them.

Mab could always represent herself. She wouldn't need a license for that.

Things are turning towards an apocalypse now but normally immortals have loads of time.
But do they have loads of free time?
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 04, 2020, 08:59:15 PM
But do they have loads of free time?

The Gatekeeper and Harry in Cold Days:
Quote
I felt my eyes get wide. “An immune system . . . What happens if it . . . you know, if it breaks down for a bit?”
“Pardon?” the Gatekeeper asked.
“Uh, it gets a glitch. Like, if somebody new took over or something and things had to reorganize around here . . .”
Most years, it would pose no major difficulty,” he said.
“What about this year?”
“This year,” he said, “it could be problematic.”
“Problematic.”

Maeve could ignore her duties for more than a century, Mab can take a few days of normally. But not now maybe.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 05, 2020, 01:31:56 AM
Solid point Arjan. I'm still vehemently of the opinion that Mab's time could be better spent.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 05, 2020, 01:41:51 AM
You have to wonder, who could bring a legal action against Mab?  How could a process server serve her?  And what court has jurisdiction in the Never Never.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 05, 2020, 03:48:39 AM
You have to wonder, who could bring a legal action against Mab?  How could a process server serve her?  And what court has jurisdiction in the Never Never.

There seems to be an idea upthread that Mab may have business interests, own land, and otherwise have a mortal-facing legal presence.  Businesses can be sued, land can be levied-against, etc.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: forumghost on March 05, 2020, 06:44:28 AM
As to what court has jurisdiction in the Never Never, the obvious answer would be "Mab's" so I pity the fool that tries to hold legal action against her there :D
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 05, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
Quote
One's field of practice doesn't affect one's jurisdiction's CLE requirements. (I know some field's require certain CLE's be taken, but the overall number doesn't change). It's not necessarily about staying on top of things; it is necessarily about meeting state mandated requirements.

   But how much time are talking practically speaking?  Just looked it up, if Google is correct we are talking 3 to 9 hours per reporting period..  Not a huge amount of time, it didn't say whether it had to be done all at once either.  So if Mab could spare the time to go to the opera or a sporting event with Sarissa in the past, keeping her law license current wouldn't be a big deal. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 05, 2020, 10:47:23 PM
... I'm still vehemently of the opinion that Mab's time could be better spent.
And I reiterate that, with Nevernever-based time dilation available, Mab doesn't have to lose any "time" to this project.

She is immortal -- she has unlimited lifespan to spend.  Real-world time progresses inexorably, so she has THAT limit (and I agree that's something she can't squander).  But she can spend an arbitrarily-small amount of that time by using a very-dilated bit of the Nevernever, because her lifetime has no end.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 06, 2020, 04:34:51 AM
   But how much time are talking practically speaking?  Just looked it up, if Google is correct we are talking 3 to 9 hours per reporting period..  Not a huge amount of time, it didn't say whether it had to be done all at once either.  So if Mab could spare the time to go to the opera or a sporting event with Sarissa in the past, keeping her law license current wouldn't be a big deal.
It usually doesn't have to be all at once and definitely doesn't if it's a video/audio recorded CLE. The the typical range is 10 to 15 hours with about six exceptions. Alaska and Hawaii at 3, and D.C., Maryland, Mass., and Michigan having no requirements. https://www.lorman.com/Minimum-CLE-Hours-by-State (https://www.lorman.com/Minimum-CLE-Hours-by-State)

A lot of CLEs can apply to multiple jurisdictions. I'm assuming Mab is licensed in at least the major states if not all of them. I'm also assuming she could manage to meet the requirements of all states with only having to go over the maximum requirement by no more than 5 hours.

And I reiterate that, with Nevernever-based time dilation available, Mab doesn't have to lose any "time" to this project.

She is immortal -- she has unlimited lifespan to spend.  Real-world time progresses inexorably, so she has THAT limit (and I agree that's something she can't squander).  But she can spend an arbitrarily-small amount of that time by using a very-dilated bit of the Nevernever, because her lifetime has no end.
I have a feeling the Nevernever-based time dilation isn't ever that clean. I don't see any other instance in any of Jim's worlds where someone gets something for nothing. There's always a cost.

My point has never been that Mab can't do it. It's that it doesn't seem like a good deal for her. She's getting less out of it than she's putting in. Now she could be strategically licensed in one or more jurisdictions that don't have licensing requirements, be licensed on an inactive status, and not licensed in states that allow lawyers from the other states to appear pro hac vice or have easy reciprocity requirements. That still seems like too much effort to me. Why not just hire an attorney? Do that and they've made a deal with her. Then she may even be able to sock puppet them and be her own lawyer in situations where she can't appear pro se.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2020, 06:05:03 AM
Quote
My point has never been that Mab can't do it. It's that it doesn't seem like a good deal for her. She's getting less out of it than she's putting in.

I think you could be mistaken there, as we've learned Mab has a reason for every move she makes.  It may not be apparent now, but bet on it, she has a reason why she wants that ability in her back pocket.  For example her very mortal Knight gets in serious trouble with the law under her orders.  He is too valuable an asset to trust his defense to anyone but herself..
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2020, 12:05:09 PM
From what we have seen the supernatural powers closest to the real world have material interests in that world. They have a presence in the real world. What would be more logical for the winter court than a law firm? Man would be on top of it.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 06, 2020, 12:32:14 PM
CEO's don't litigate.  Ever. No matter how good a Attorney they might be.  The Outsiders could care less about the legal system and that is Mab's focus.  Her word is law in the Never Never, no Judges required.  If she's litigating it's wasted time.  She has lackeys.  As many of them as she needs.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
CEO's don't litigate.  Ever. No matter how good a Attorney they might be.  The Outsiders could care less about the legal system and that is Mab's focus.  Her word is law in the Never Never, no Judges required.  If she's litigating it's wasted time.  She has lackeys.  As many of them as she needs.

 We shall see...
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Maz on March 06, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
I'm going to steal a bit from the concept of omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient...
Mab isn't any of these things but she certainly aspires to them.

Thinking back to the puppet that Aurora made and the fact we have demonstrated Mab's immense intellect, I'm certain its within her capability to at least split part of her awareness into a puppet and send the puppet to whatever CE she needs.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 06, 2020, 07:25:11 PM
CEO's don't litigate.  Ever. No matter how good a Attorney they might be.
This. It's pointless.

I think you could be mistaken there, as we've learned Mab has a reason for every move she makes.
Yeah, but she's a fictional character written by a fallible writer.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2020, 08:02:34 PM
This. It's pointless.
Or maybe it is just a hobby? After a long knight of torturing disloyal winter knights she calls Lea to tell her she has to stop playing with her dogs and watch the border while she is torturing someone on a completely different way in a courtroom.

Really not everything is work for her. Sometimes she hurts Harry for spite.

It might actually be useful to have a human cover.
Quote
Yeah, but she's a fictional character written by a fallible writer.
Who prefers to find ways to make his mistakes work. 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 06, 2020, 08:47:28 PM
Or maybe it is just a hobby? After a long knight of torturing disloyal winter knights she calls Lea to tell her she has to stop playing with her dogs and watch the border while she is torturing someone on a completely different way in a courtroom.

Really not everything is work for her. Sometimes she hurts Harry for spite.

It might actually be useful to have a human cover. Who prefers to find ways to make his mistakes work.

 Agree with all of that plus it is fantasy, so why can't Mab be a lawyer just for the hell of it? ::)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 06, 2020, 09:34:27 PM
As part of a plot, I can't see it.  But then again, he is going to write a book about wrestlers who are gods of one kind or another, so who knows.  And one of his protagonists was a porn actress.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Arjan on March 06, 2020, 10:54:24 PM
As part of a plot, I can't see it.  But then again, he is going to write a book about wrestlers who are gods of one kind or another, so who knows.  And one of his protagonists was a porn actress.
The logical thing to do for a white court vampire and maybe the logical thing to do for Mab is practice law. It is in her nature. She has to do it.

And she has enough time to do so. Surely torturing slate has its uses but she has people for that as well and it took a lot of time. She can spend some time with  Sarissa watching frozen. She can do some things she wants to do.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 06, 2020, 11:53:58 PM
I can see Jim using it tangentially...  Like, Mab and "her people" (maybe just her Knight) are in negotiations with Marcone and "his people."

Marcone's lawyer goes pale when he sees Mab, "are we litigating against... her?  I've done that before, and... as your lawyer, I would advise against it."
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Hagbard Celine on March 07, 2020, 12:59:33 AM

Phew.  Got through this entire thread.  It's amusing how some people seem to know more than Jim Butcher about his own story.  You can't fill in the blanks in a sketch like this and then write pages about how your filled blanks must be mistakes by Jim.  Yikes.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 07, 2020, 04:01:09 AM
Phew.  Got through this entire thread.  It's amusing how some people seem to know more than Jim Butcher about his own story.  You can't fill in the blanks in a sketch like this and then write pages about how your filled blanks must be mistakes by Jim.  Yikes.

Well... crazy house-of-cards speculations are what WAGs like these are all about, after all!

Wild Ass Guessing, baby!  Don't knock it 'til you've tried it!    ;).

Also, Jim freely admits that he DOES make mistakes, forgets stuff, changes his momedit:mind and, etc etc etc... So there's that.

But it's ALSO true that sometimes something that someone spots as a "continuity error" or other mistake, "and therefore my pet theory <X> is obviously true!!!1!1!!" turns out to be Jim dropping a hint that All Is Not As It Seems.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Con on March 08, 2020, 02:27:47 PM
19 pages out of 600 word short story. You nerds.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on March 09, 2020, 08:28:07 PM
19 pages out of 600 word short story. You nerds.
In my opinion, it's a 600-word short story with implications way beyond any other short he's ever written, with the possible exception of Backup and the explanation of the Oblivion War. This story puts Morgan's actions across the whole series in a totally new light and implies a level of familiarity that's totally unaddressed in the main series, and likely never will be. I mean, just that Morgan knew about Nemesis 10-20 years ago is a big deal, let alone the idea that he was supposed to look out for Harry because he promised Margaret.

On the other hand, I totally agree that many or most of us are nerds.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 10, 2020, 12:16:25 AM
So there's a new Q&A from Jim. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6hcE5-YCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6hcE5-YCA). In it, Jim says something about how Morgan was always a good guy, but he had to be a giant pain in Harry's, and basically only Harry's, backside.

Mostly the whole thing is stories we've heard a hundred times. (If I'm going to go to the effort of seeing someone in person, I'm going to have looked them up on Youtube and not ask a question that's been asked a hundred times).

(all times approximate)
@21 minutes Jim talks about only writing about cultures he is familiar enough to be respectful; mentions Navajos approaching him since writing about skinwalkers.

@30 minutesish Jim talks about a new Mouse short story happening. That's about it on that one.

Jim starts on the Morgan stuff starts at about 37:30. There was a question, but I haven't tried to figure out exactly what it was.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 10, 2020, 12:24:13 AM
"another" Mouse short story?  ???
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 10, 2020, 12:43:04 AM
I was counting Zoo Day as a Mouse story.
Quote
Zoo Day is a short story in the Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher. It is set at the same time of Day One, and is in turn narrated by Harry Dresden, Margaret Angelica Dresden and Mouse. It is included in the anthology Brief Cases.
https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Zoo_Day (https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Zoo_Day)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 10, 2020, 12:49:06 AM
Ah, I totally forgot about that. I have not read it (I did not buy Brief Cases). Thank you
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: g33k on March 10, 2020, 01:30:00 AM
... Mostly the whole thing is stories we've heard a hundred times. (If I'm going to go to the effort of seeing someone in person, I'm going to have looked them up on Youtube and not ask a question that's been asked a hundred times) ...

Yeah.
 :o   >:(    :P

OTOH, I can envision carefully-researched queries being totally shut down by Jim as being too pointed and revealing too much.  More than once, he's replied along the lines of "I can't tell you guys that!" or "you think I'm just gonna blurt out an answer like that?"
 
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 10, 2020, 07:15:21 AM
@Bad Alias
The beard and the hair clash.
Ah, I totally forgot about that. I have not read it (I did not buy Brief Cases). Thank you
At the risk of calling down Hellfire, you really didn't miss much.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 10, 2020, 11:59:00 AM
At the risk of calling down Hellfire, you really didn't miss much.
I am not a fan of Maggie's existence, so I decided not to buy Brief Cases just for a story about her (I have all the others, I believe)
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Mira on March 10, 2020, 12:01:33 PM
I am not a fan of Maggie's existence, so I decided not to buy Brief Cases just for a story about her (I have all the others, I believe)

  I'm inclined to agree.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: morriswalters on March 10, 2020, 01:03:53 PM
IMO the Maggie story was flat, much like the Goodman Grey piece.  My spirits are raised by the early buzz among a group that have had access to Peace Talks.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on March 10, 2020, 02:24:21 PM
Ah, I totally forgot about that. I have not read it (I did not buy Brief Cases). Thank you

Zoo Day in particular was really good. Kinda tells three stories in one that all take place simultaneously; what happens with Harry, what happens with Maggie, and what happens with Mouse.

The Mouse part is particularly illuminating, because it implies and outright states a whole bunch of things about Mouse that are almost completely absent from the main series—including some specifics about the way his power functions and what it can do. Not quite as earth-shattering character-wise as the Morgan freebie, but it does cast some new light on some particulars of the way Mouse operates in the main series.

Other than that, I don't think there are any new shorts in Brief Cases, just ones that I missed since I don't buy the collections when they come out 'cuz I'd only be buying them for Dresden. Probably not worth a full priced purchase if you only missed Zoo Day, but if you can find it cheap somewhere, it may be worth it.

I used an Audible credit to get the audiobook. I particularly liked Zoo Day because they switched narrators between perspectives. I think Mouse's narrator was Russian? I forget the accent. But he was pretty solid.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 10, 2020, 04:42:19 PM
I get the short story anthologies from my local library. I wasn't able to get AAAA Wizardry and one other (until the Jim only anthologies). If my library doesn't have one, I can usually get it through an inter-library loan or the library's shared digital collection. It usually takes about a month or two after a book comes out to read it that way, but I'm fine with that for short stories.

I did by an e-book of the most recent anthologies (the Goodman Grey short story) because I had some sort of credit when I selected the slow delivery on Amazon. The credit(s) covered the cost of the e-book, and those things expire eventually.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Kindler on March 10, 2020, 07:13:33 PM
Mostly the whole thing is stories we've heard a hundred times. (If I'm going to go to the effort of seeing someone in person, I'm going to have looked them up on Youtube and not ask a question that's been asked a hundred times).
Typical. Let me guess:
"Did you plan out the series from the start?"
"Did you know that Harry was going to become the Winter Knight?"
"Wow! Molly's the Winter Lady! Did you know that was going to happen?"
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Dina on March 10, 2020, 11:50:50 PM
Thank you to all speaking to me about Zoo Day. I've read all the BC stories but that one so for now I rather don't invest so much money in it (no, libraries are not an option) but someday I will. Just probably not until after PT at least.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: Bad Alias on March 12, 2020, 08:12:52 PM
Typical. Let me guess:
"Did you plan out the series from the start?"
"Did you know that Harry was going to become the Winter Knight?"
"Wow! Molly's the Winter Lady! Did you know that was going to happen?"
It's surprising how old the questions are. A lot of the questions/answers here seemed focused on writing as opposed to plot.
Title: Re: Morgan Micro Fiction
Post by: noblehunter on March 13, 2020, 01:59:56 PM
It's surprising how old the questions are. A lot of the questions/answers here seemed focused on writing as opposed to plot.

Not unreasonable, especially since after such a long hiatus people who aren't obsessive interested about the series may not remember enough to ask about plot details. I tried to talk to my sister about the micro fiction and she didn't know who people were.